South African National Defence Force

[playtym]

Wait till you spend a couple of days in 42ºC heat doing 2nd phase or ATR/ACR conversion and most of the 120 student course insists that they just simply cannot see the red pillar on the MGL .....

BTDT - I think Upington may have been hotter than 42ºC though! p-)

[GETSOME]

BTDT - I think Upington may have been hotter than 42ºC though! p-)
Looks like none of you guys spent time in Walvis bay,hot ,hot,hot:|

[Rudolph]

http://www.fineclaretmedia.co.uk/index_files/Page534.htm

I saw this advertised before Ian Smith passed away. Now they've finished the interview/documentary on Rhodesia/Zimbabwe. Includes this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_x9jRYU1JU

[luqzul@telkomsa.net]

http://www.defensereview.com/1_31_2004/Milkor%20MGL%20Mk-1S_1.jpg

Does anyone think that this soldier will hit the target?
I doubt it....................
No he wont, firstly the sight is still zeroed and secondly the sight on the MGL requires you to use both eyes and stare down the middle (almost over) the sight while placing the little red target indicator on the target. i doubt that he can even see the red target indicator.

[Rudolph]

Some photos from Magnus Malan's My lewe saam met die SA Weermag:

http://users.iafrica.com/j/jr/jrp/122MM.jpg
Captured Russian 122mm Multiple Rocket Launchers

http://users.iafrica.com/j/jr/jrp/T35.jpg
Captured Russian T35 tanks

http://users.iafrica.com/j/jr/jrp/BRDM-2.jpg
Captued Russian BRDM-2

http://users.iafrica.com/j/jr/jrp/Namacurras.jpg
Local-made Namacurras

http://users.iafrica.com/j/jr/jrp/SASDrakensberg.jpg
Local-made SAS Drakensberg

http://users.iafrica.com/j/jr/jrp/RSA-3.jpg
RSA-3 Prototype for launching satellites. Space Program cancelled on request by the US before 1994 takeover

http://users.iafrica.com/j/jr/jrp/Cheetah.jpg
Loca Mirage upgrade - presumably Israeli upgrade with different engine

http://users.iafrica.com/j/jr/jrp/Unmanned.jpg
Local-made Seeker, unmanned plane

[exT70]

.

And for something different.

Sunset New Year´s Eve
Draft Notice

In 2006, a number of ex Servicemen proposed a tradition that at sunset on New Year's Eve serving and former military personnel would face the sunset, remember former comrades, and drink a toast to their memory. This small ceremony took place all over the world and was a unique form of commemoration and solidarity, linking South Africans everywhere in a united symbolic act.

It is proposed that this "tradition" be continued in 2007 and every year thereafter. This is a simple symbolic gesture which will briefly unite the Southern African military diaspora who are to be found living, working and serving in all parts of the world. A toast may be used to record the moment, either a traditional or regimental toast e.g. "Absent Friends"!, or a simple "To those who served under the Southern Cross"!


This will be a moment
to remember with humour and affection our colleagues and friends who passed on to higher service over the past year.
to reflect on friendship in good and tough times.
to pay our respects to all who served before us
to remember those who are still in harm's way
to acknowledge the ideals of True Comradeship, Mutual Help and Sound Memory

[Lancero]

I stumbled on this video. Most certainly a repost, but didn't come up in a search

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBdw5TvmJf0

[GETSOME]

[quote=exT70;2921638]Many people seem to have a distorted memory re the erstwhile SADF. Some parts of it were good, others not. Many of todays' troops will run rings around some of the so calles "old" SA troops. In some other ways not. Selective memory is a very interesting thing...
Just as interesting is the question who you compare the current force to. The pre-war peace time army of say '76, or at the height of the war?
And I wonder how the conscript army would have dealt with today's peacekeeping duties. People also conveniently tend to forget the extent of todays deployments. In effect is means a minimum of 9 Bns constantly preparing to deploy, deploying or demobbing.


The old SADF had combat experience which the new SANDF does not,and you cannot compare it to the height of the war.

[Ironsight06]

I stumbled on this video. Most certainly a repost, but didn't come up in a search
Thanks for posting!

[seanus]

Hi,
New to the forum and very glad to see so much on the defence forces of South Africa.
I'm a uniforms nut and would dearly like some help.
SA Army unit's, in nutria brown, wore distinctive cravats and stable belts. Can anyone help with details of these?
Also I'm trying to get hold of SA Army dress regulations or orders. Can anyone Help with actual items or contacts? Happy to pay for copying and postage.
Thanks

[GETSOME]

Hi,
New to the forum and very glad to see so much on the defence forces of South Africa.
I'm a uniforms nut and would dearly like some help.
SA Army unit's, in nutria brown, wore distinctive cravats and stable belts. Can anyone help with details of these?
Also I'm trying to get hold of SA Army dress regulations or orders. Can anyone Help with actual items or contacts? Happy to pay for copying and postage.
Thanks
Welcome,what you want to know about the cravats and stable belts?

[seanus]

I'm after colours and pattern so I can illustrate them.

[exT70]

I'm after colours and pattern so I can illustrate them.

A very large number of units had their own authorised, together with shoulder flashes, which indicated unit (left shoulder) and sub-unit (right shoulder). Stable belts were in the colours of specific units' corps / member's affiliated corps, with the badge on the belt usually unit specific / specific to the members' afiliated unit. You'll therefor probably have to specify which units you are interested in, unless you are looking for all, which might take a while.

[GETSOME]

I'm after colours and pattern so I can illustrate them.
2SAI (Walvisbay) cravat was cream with the 2SAI Badgehttp://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/FE/12/SADFphotos/c/113.jpg (javascript:tn_click_pic(275, 444, 526)).
The belt was the infantry colours ,black,yellow and green with a square buckle and the infantry badge(bokkop) later changed to the new 2SAI badge of the flamingo.:roll:

[seanus]

Thank you both very much.
It seems there are still many cravats that I need to identify.
:)

[playtym]

http://youtube.com/v/vsq0LPxx8kY

http://youtube.com/v/0mBi_z-CuB0

http://youtube.com/v/p7Zn6VmCSU0

[playtym]

http://youtube.com/v/M9WbcseQVvg

http://youtube.com/v/2yB5G4AhHlM

http://youtube.com/v/NfT7akMnojw

[Bifrost]

http://www.seawolf.ru/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/ww2/yuar/STA70609-01-01.jpg

http://www.seawolf.ru/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/ww2/yuar/STA70617-01-01.jpg

http://www.seawolf.ru/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/ww2/yuar/STA70624-01-01.jpg

http://www.seawolf.ru/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/ww2/yuar/STA70626-01-01.jpg

[GETSOME]

Great pics ,thanks,got any more pics and info?

[wilhelm]

Looks like Langebaan.

[playtym]

View the complete collection here. (http://www.seawolf.ru/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=thumbnails&album=58&page=1&sort=)

[R/cst]

Any idea which unit this is?

Looking at the pics I get the feeling it might be recce trainning

[GETSOME]

4 Recce, are they still around?
Thanks for those pics guys.

[2freddie]

4 Recce, are they still around?
Thanks for those pics guys.


I am busy publishing my collection on my website. I specialize in Recce, 32 Bn, 61 Mech Bn GP, 1 Para Bn, 44 Para Bde, Hunter Group and 7 Med Bn GP. I try my best, not to collect fakes, so what you see in my collection, is basically what exists, not much more. The collection is still in progress, so there are some badges still missing, but I will eventually find it. I have read that some guys ask questions regarding insignia of these units, so I hope, I can assist you here. www.samilitaria.iblog.co.za (http://www.samilitaria.iblog.co.za).

Thanks

[GETSOME]

I am busy publishing my collection on my website. I specialize in Recce, 32 Bn, 61 Mech Bn GP, 1 Para Bn, 44 Para Bde, Hunter Group and 7 Med Bn GP. I try my best, not to collect fakes, so what you see in my collection, is basically what exists, not much more. The collection is still in progress, so there are some badges still missing, but I will eventually find it. I have read that some guys ask questions regarding insignia of these units, so I hope, I can assist you here. www.samilitaria.iblog.co.za (http://www.samilitaria.iblog.co.za).

Thanks
WOW ,thanks for that ,you have a wonderful collection,any chance you have high res of the pics of your collection?
2 questions,the junior recce badge,do you have any info on how it was awarded,and also the army diver badge,was that awarded only to recces?
Thanks.

[baboon6]

4 Recce, are they still around?
Thanks for those pics guys.

4 Special Forces Regiment, stil at Langebaan.

[wilhelm]

I used to(and still do..) kick around Langebaan lagoon. Wonderful, wonderful place, although the small town of Langebaan has been spoilt by developement. I think the old whaling station the recces use is Donkergat?

[The Saint]

I am busy publishing my collection on my website. I specialize in Recce, 32 Bn, 61 Mech Bn GP, 1 Para Bn, 44 Para Bde, Hunter Group and 7 Med Bn GP. I try my best, not to collect fakes, so what you see in my collection, is basically what exists, not much more. The collection is still in progress, so there are some badges still missing, but I will eventually find it. I have read that some guys ask questions regarding insignia of these units, so I hope, I can assist you here. www.samilitaria.iblog.co.za (http://www.samilitaria.iblog.co.za).

Thanks

2freddie,

Nice collection you have and great website.
I have in my collection a 1st issue Recce stable belt which has the No "0342" stamped at the back of the clasp. Any idea of this number significance ? Thanks for any intel.

Eric

[TGVorster]

To my knowledge all Recce regalia and uniform items were numbered.

[cold_warrior]

I've been looking through the pictures, but does anybody know what insignia, if any, was worn on the "Nutria" brown uniform?

[GETSOME]

I've been looking through the pictures, but does anybody know what insignia, if any, was worn on the "Nutria" brown uniform?
What insigna are you talking about?

[cold_warrior]

What insigna are you talking about?

What would be worn on the combat uniform, like nametapes, ranks, etc.

[The Saint]

I've been looking through the pictures, but does anybody know what insignia, if any, was worn on the "Nutria" brown uniform?

First of all, I have never been in the SA Army, so my views are just that of a student of SA military history and collector of uniforms.

The wearing of insignia depended on the duty. Badged uniforms were certainly worn in bases, but when in the field, insignia were kept to the minimum, if worn at all. Officers sometimes wore their rank slides on the shoulder straps.
Most badges (parachute wings, marksman, company flashes, &c.), exist in subdued version, ie embroidered or printed black on nutria, but it's hard to tell to what extant they were worn in the field.
Name tape is also far from regular, and seems to appear only in the mid-80s. When worn, it is sewn over the right breast pocket of the shirt or jacket, and I own a pair of trousers with a name tape sewn at the bottom of a leg.

Hope this helps.
Eric

[GETSOME]

Ok when i was in, officers and ncos wore subdued rank in the field,skill badges were worn above your name tape above the right pocket and the parachute wings above your left pocket,the only skill badge you wore above the left pocket.
Unit and company flashes where not worn in the field.

[cold_warrior]

Thanks so much for the info, guys.

[GETSOME]

Does any one here ,past SADF or present SANDF know where or who i can contact about info on medals that one was entiled to receive but never received them,would appreciate any info thanks?

[wilhelm]

Correct, I wore toned down cloth epaulettes denoting rank. That's it. No other difference to any other rank.

[playtym]

2008-2-4 16:38
Pretoria - Ten military health students will face charges ranging from public violence to riotous behaviour, following clashes with Military Police and the SA Police Service's flying squad at the weekend.
The ten were arrested after they allegedly took part in a drinking binge at the weekend and violently tried to stop police who tried to intervene.
"They will be charged with public violence, disobeying lawful commands, prejudice to military discipline and riotous and unsavoury behaviour," SA National Defence Force spokesperson Colonel Petrus Motlhabane said on Monday.
The ten were apparently part of a larger group who barricaded roads with dustbins, tables and chairs as they partied through the early hours of Sunday morning at the Military Health Training Formation in Thaba Tshwane, outside Pretoria.
The Pretoria News reported that military police tried to storm the three barracks where the parties were going on but were forced to retreat by students, armed with fire extinguishers and broken furniture.
The paper said it appeared that many of students smuggled girlfriends and boyfriends into the military installation in the back of bakkies and cars which were also loaded with alcohol.
They were eventually overcome when the MPs called in the help of the SAPS.
SANDF spokesperson Colonel Louis Kirstein confirmed that a "social function" was held at the installation after hours and without permission.
"When it was discovered, the officer on duty called in the MPs to quell the disturbance and restore order. When the MPs could not regain control the SAPS was called in to come and assist," he said.

SAPAhttp://www.24.com/news/?p=tsa&i=830921


Here's an update on the story...



Partying soldiers face the law
2008-2-5 08:34

Pretoria - Ten soldiers who were arrested after they allegedly took part in a drinking binge and violently tried to stop police who tried to intervene, briefly appeared in a military court on Monday. The 10 were not asked to plead and were released on a warning.
They are due to appear again in court on February 19.
They will face charges of public violence, malicious damage to property, common assault, disobeying lawful commands, prejudice to military discipline and riotous and unsavoury behaviour.
The soldiers from the SA Military Health Service were apparently part of a larger group who barricaded roads with dustbins, tables and chairs as they partied through the early hours of Sunday morning at the Military Health Training Formation in Thaba Tshwane, outside Pretoria.

Bakkies, cars loaded with booze
The Pretoria News reported that military police tried to storm the barracks where the parties were taking place, but were forced to retreat by soldiers armed with fire extinguishers and broken furniture.
The paper said it appeared many of the soldiers had smuggled girlfriends and boyfriends into the military installation in the back of bakkies and cars which were loaded with alcohol.
They were eventually overpowered when the MPs called in the help of the SA Police Service.

SAPA

http://www.24.com/news/?p=tsa&i=831353

[TGVorster]

****ing disgraceful. Bunch of tampon tiffies running riot. Were is our defense force going to?

[2freddie]

2freddie,

Nice collection you have and great website.
I have in my collection a 1st issue Recce stable belt which has the No "0342" stamped at the back of the clasp. Any idea of this number significance ? Thanks for any intel.

Eric

Hi

Only the official restricted items of the Recces are numbered:

Operator badge (silver/chrome/gold) - only the regular size badge
Attack Diver badge (bronze/oxidized metal) - only the regular size badge
Stable belt buckle (obsolete now) - The belt was numbered and was supposed to have been handed in when leaving the unit, but this seldomly happened. Those handed in, eventually disappeared. ;-)
I have seen some of the latest stable belts that were issued, just before they went obsolete. They were not numbered.

Most of the Recce memorabilia are also numbered to give it that special flavour of prestige.

[The Saint]

Hi

Only the official restricted items of the Recces are numbered:

Operator badge (silver/chrome/gold) - only the regular size badge
Attack Diver badge (bronze/oxidized metal) - only the regular size badge
Stable belt buckle (obsolete now) - The belt was numbered and was supposed to have been handed in when leaving the unit, but this seldomly happened. Those handed in, eventually disappeared. ;-)
I have seen some of the latest stable belts that were issued, just before they went obsolete. They were not numbered.

Most of the Recce memorabilia are also numbered to give it that special flavour of prestige.

Thanks for the reply.

[baboon6]

****ing disgraceful. Bunch of tampon tiffies running riot. Were is our defence force going to?

Where is our spelling going to? Seriously though, I do agree with you, this incident is quite disturbing.

[Rudolph]

Interesting article in the newspaper about the SANDF union which said it would block the opening of parliament, even if the police intervene, come as may.... It's disburbing that nothing is done at all. Imagine if an army union in any civilised country said it would block parliament, and attack the police if necessary!! A disgrace is what the ANC and government is.......

[cold_warrior]

Wow. That's only a hop, skip and a jump from military rule. I wonder whether the soldiers threatening to protest were some of the ones integrated from MK and other groups in 1994?

[Hellfish]

You guys have a union for your military?

[Rudolph]

The writer was Leopold Scholtz, who has a degree in "Krygskunde", Netherlands. He also wrote Friday in Die Burger, that in a ANC official newsletter it said that it reluctantly, out of grace, allows official opposition to exist... implying that it is not normal! And now with the Scorpions dissolved, and Zuma becoming president.... :(

[Rudolph]

You guys have a union for your military?

I'm not sure who you are speaking to, but in South Africa there is almost a union for everything.... the most ridiculous thing has a union. The security guards who went on strike last year, killing 69 people (the same amount as killed by the apartheid government in Sharpville), being lead openly by the union leaders, and no criminals charges lead to arrest! People from my company were told if they go to work their families would be killed and such, and those who dared were thrown from trains or burned in townships to warn others.....

[cold_warrior]

The writer was Leopold Scholtz, who has a degree in "Krygskunde", Netherlands. He also wrote Friday in Die Burger, that in a ANC official newsletter it said that it reluctantly, out of grace, allows official opposition to exist... implying that it is not normal! And now with the Scorpions dissolved, and Zuma becoming president.... :(

Looks like SA is on the fast track to becoming a one-party state. :-(

[exT70]

You guys have a union for your military?
Yip, and for the police and various other "essential" services. They however do not have the right to strike if it in any way disrupts their ordinary duties. It is a constitutional right, curbed for the greater good.

In the SANDF there is actually more than one union. The relevant union in this case, SADU, apparently has about 18,000 members. There is however four issues one should keep in mind here:

1. maybe Defence personnell should strike, the SANDF, and particularly the army has been underfunded, overstretched, overdeployed (those able to deploy) and used as a social support program for long enough

2. any idiot can say 1000's of people will march on parliament. Even with every single military member in Cape Town marching, they will not have the numbers mentioned. Any other members will have to be bussed in from 1000km away and further (OK Oudtshoorn is only 440km away).

"Tomorrow MilPhotos is marching on the SA Parly with 50,000 members" says spokesman T70.
I have some time ago lost my respect and belief in the SA media. They have degraded to sensationalist reporting, playing for the crowd. The truth and balanced responsible reporting has become victims of party politics, personal agendas and mamon.

3. "You don't get bad soldiers, only bad leadership". If LtCols get caught cribbing during Senior Staff Course and for their troubles barely get a slap on the wrist and thereafter quickly promoted to general, what do you expect from the men? Orgies at the medics (senior staff been there, done that), ****** haressment (senior staff been there, done that), absenteeism (senior staff been there, done that), unprofessionalism (senior staff been there, done that), I don't give a sh!itism (senior staff been there, done that), incompetence (senior staff been there, done that) and a total lack of service excellence (senior staff been there, done that).

4. Both the SAPS and SANDF were on standby for "any eventuality", and I take it would have been overly keen to "address the situation". I was actually looking forward to the strike .... would have liked to see some of these complaining whinging politicating "union members" when "under real pressure", calling themselves "soldiers" and all.

[R/cst]

SADF vs SANDF - which way to go
Max du Preez
February 14 2008 at 10:48AM

I have for a very long time had the impression that our National Defence Force is in deep trouble. After last week I'm sure of it.

My morning paper last Friday carried a picture of a soldier with a Jacob Zuma T-shirt on the front page. He was the spokesperson of the soldiers' trade union and he was threatening to disrupt the opening ceremony at parliament.

The soldiers' protest action was in support of a demand for better salaries and the SANDF's promotions policies.

But the police had refused the soldiers permission to march in Cape Town on the day of the opening of parliament.

The union leader then threatened revolt - that they would invade Cape Town in their thousands and take on the police.

"The Eskom crisis will look like a circus when we rise up," he was reported to have said.

Soldiers threatening to make a major city ungovernable, threatening violent clashes with the police? It's very clear and simple: it is sedition.

In any other democracy this soldier would have been in detention barracks by the time the newspaper hit the streets and would be facing a court martial by now. Nothing happened to him.

Armies aren't democratic institutions. A commander's orders aren't meant to be debated. By its very nature an army can only be successful if it is highly disciplined. It is, after all, a unit of men and women trained to kill and armed to the teeth to do it. It is the primary guardian of the state and of stability.

A lot can be said of the apartheid era defence force and the way they destabilised the neighbouring states. But they were a prime example of a highly disciplined force where party politics were banned; they were loyal to the government of the day.

This culture of discipline and of being above party politics saved our transition to democracy from derailing.

In 1993 and early 1994 a former SADF chief, General Constand Viljoen, mobilised thousands of white men under arms to threaten the negotiating politicians with a coup.

In March 1994 his force was poised to take the former Bantustan of Bophuthatswana to defend its "independence".

The then chief of the SADF, General George Meiring, quickly mobilised a force and for a while they (made up of mostly white Afrikaners) squared up the Viljoen force (made up of mostly white Afrikaners). Viljoen backed down.

A month or so later, Meiring stood next to Nelson Mandela on the podium as he was sworn in as South Africa's new president.

Helicopters that were used a year earlier to attack the ANC and others opposing apartheid, flew overhead with the new flag attached.

From statements made after his retirement, we know Meiring didn't like the deal made between the National Party and the ANC.

But when he was head of the SADF, he followed the principle of staying loyal to the government of the day. He went on to assist with the integration of several forces into the new SANDF.

The problem is that two of the main components of the new SANDF, the ANC's Umkhonto we Sizwe and the PAC's Apla, were highly ideologised armies with low levels of training and very weak discipline.

MK itself experienced several mutinies during its time. Apla was a virtual non-entity until after the all-party negotiations started, when it launched bloody and cowardly attacks against white civilians.

Apla was at its most active ever in 1993 and 1994. (The Apla commander at the time, Letlapa Mphahlele, is about to be prosecuted for those crimes.)

Unfortunately the leadership in the SANDF wasn't strong enough to turn it into a professional force after 1994. Too many soldiers behave as if they belong to some African warlord's private army.

The force was quickly purged of some of the most experienced soldiers of the old SADF and promotions to the highest ranks sometimes appear to come out of a lucky packet.

Today, I'm told, less than half the personnel in the SANDF are battle ready the rest are apparently sick or live with HIV/Aids.

The SANDF is so weak now that it can't even protect the border with Lesotho. Farmers along the border have been terrorised for years and Free State Agriculture is about to launch a serious Constitutional Court action against government because they claim their constitutional rights have been violated by the state's inaction.

It would have been acceptable if our defence force had merely become a place where pre-1994 soldiers could find employment and medical care, because we don't really need a strong army. But having spent R50 billion on sophisticated arms and weaponry, we expect a lot more.

Instead of saddling our young children with an oath forever reminding them that the little white ones among them are evil seed, perhaps we should get all our soldiers in shape to stand on the parade ground early every morning promising to serve the Constitution only.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20080214103325596C985545#comment_top_box

[R/cst]

Has a Russian official unintentionally exposed a secret SA space programme?

By: Keith Campbell (http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/author.php?u_id=9)
Published: 8 Feb 08 - 0:00
The head of Roskosmos, Russia’s civilian space agency, seems to have accidentally exposed a hitherto unknown South African military space project.
Responding to a question from a correspondent for Russia’s ITAR-TASS news agency regarding Russia’s failure to launch South Africa’s civilian Sumbandila satellite, Anatoly Perminov stated that “unfortunately, the Russian Defence Ministry refused to launch this satellite, as the South African Defence Ministry for its turn refused to use our satellite.
The two countries’ defence ministries decided to go their own way, and we did not interfere in these affairs.
Today there is no opportunity for the launch.” – Sumbandila was meant to have been launched late last year from a Russian submarine; it would have been sent in a special capsule to an integration facility at the Russian Naval Base at Murmansk in northern Russia; the Russian Navy would then have fitted the capsule and the satellite to a Shtil 2.1 rocket, taken the submarine to sea, and launched the rocket.

The key phrase is “the South African Defence Ministry ... refused to use our satellite.” What could this mean?
Firstly, it must be pointed out that the South African civilian satellite programme is run by the Department of Science and Technology (DST), not the Department of Defence. So it must be a reference to a specifically military space or space-related programme on the part of South Africa, separate from that of the DST.
Secondly, refusing to launch the South African satellite is a major decision that could only be made at high-level in the ministry; it breaks a Russian obligation to South Africa, and deeply embarrasses Roskosmos. It could even damage Russia’s reputation in the increasingly competitive international space launch market.

So the Russian Ministry of Defence must have been very annoyed with its South African counterpart. That, in turn, signals that the proposed programme, whatever it was, was a major one. This, further, suggests that it was not a mere matter of South Africa using an existing Russian military satellite, leasing capacity or buying imagery.
Rather, these scanty clues point to something on the scale of actually acquiring a military satellite from Russia – or, more precisely, seriously considering such an acquisition, including negotiations with the Russians (how else would Moscow know about project?), only to terminate the talks or cancel any agreement or deal, and doing so in a manner, or for a reason, which angered the Russian Defence Ministry.

Perminov’s phrase “the two countries’ defence ministries decided to go their own way,” signals that the South African programme was not cancelled, but rather that this country has chosen to order the space vehicle from a third country, rejecting, for whatever reason, the Russian technology.

Assuming these deductions are correct, what kind of satellite could the South African Department of Defence be seeking? Military forces employ two types of satellite – communications, and reconaissance (popularly called spy satellites), with the latter subdivided into a number of categories, notably imagery, radar, and electronics.

The South African National Defence Force (SANDF) can certainly justify either a communciations satellite or an imagery satellite. This is because of its increasingly extensive peacekeeping deployments in decidedly dangerous and remote areas of Africa.
The communications systems for UN forces can be very rudimentary and inadequate, and a national military communications satellite would give South Africa an independent and very secure communications link with troops deployed in places like Darfur. Similarly, possession of an imagery reconaissance satellite would give this country an independent source of very high resolution pictures of crisis areas and situations.
This would allow Pretoria to make critically important decisions (such as whether to join or withdraw from a UN force, or reinforce troops already deployed, or what way to vote in an UN debate) on the basis of some knowledge of what was really happening, instead of being dependent on the assertions and arguments of other countries.

It should be noted that reconaissance satellite technology is jealously guarded. It would have been a great concession to South Africa if Russia had been willing to grant this country access to even part of the latter’s capabilities in this sphere. To turn down such an offer would be a rebuff indeed.

The strength of the Russian Defence Ministry’s reaction to South Africa’s decision not to use a Russian satellite thus suggests that Pretoria is seeking to acquire a reconaissance satellite. And there are less than a handful of countries with the capability to build such a craft. Apart from Russia and the US – which would not sell a reconaissance satellite to anyone – it is basically just France and Israel.

All this, by the way, does not mean that Russia, the country, will not launch Sumbandila. Roskosmos has its own rockets and launch facilities, and is a civilian agency. Scheduling and planned orbit permitting, it could still put the South African satellite in space.
http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article.php?a_id=125661

[R/cst]

SA now base for new protected-vehicle development programme

By: Keith Campbell (http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/author.php?u_id=9)
Published: 8 Feb 08 - 0:00
THE decision by the Land Systems business of UK-domiciled global defence group BAE Systems to transfer responsibility for the Pinzgauer 2 project from the UK to its South African subsidiary, BAE Systems Land Systems OMC (Land Systems OMC, 75%-owned by the UK group) opens yet another potentially major international opportunity for the Benoni-based company. “The transfer of Pinzgauer 2 work to South Africa is a demonstration of the commitment and faith that BAE Systems has in our business and its capabilities,” said Land Systems South Africa MD Johan Steyn in reaction to the news.

“The significance of this development is that we will now have another offering to put to the market,” says Land Systems South Africa marketing communications manager Natasha Pheiffer. “BAE Systems Land Systems’ global strategy is to create a low cost profitable business that can offer value for money solutions to our customers. This decision is in line with that strategy.”

The Pinzgauer vehicle joined the BAE Land Systems’ range when the group bought US company Armor Holdings for more than $4-billion last year. Until now, the production model has been the Pinzgauer 1, a 6x6 all-terrain multirole vehicle with a payload capability of up to 2,5 t. Since it was orginally developed in Austria in 1967, 22 000 Pinzgauer 1 trucks have been built, and are in service in 29 countries, mostly with military forces. The biggest customers have been the British and New Zealand armies.

Armor Holdings developed an armoured version of the Pinzgauer, which has been bought by the British army to the amount of 166 vehicles, especially for service in Afghanistan. However, although arnoured, this version of the Pinzgauer reportedly does not have dedicated mine protection. And between last August (2007) and the end of January (2008), six British soldiers have been killed in Pinzgauers, reportedly as a result of the vehicle’s vulnerability to landmines and improvised explosive devices (IEDs).

Then, late last month, BAE Systems Land Systems announced that production of the armoured version of the Pinzgauer 1 was to be terminated and that responsibility for the development and production of the Pinzgauer 2 was to be transferred to South Africa.
“Our engineers are looking at potential improvements. Putting the Pinzgauer 2 development in South Africa is a strategic fit for our business, because of our expertise in the field of light armoured and mine-protected vehicles, says Pheiffer.”

It is believed that a likely outcome of the transfer of the programme to Benoni will be an all-terrain multirole vehicle with increased mobility and payload, coupled with improved protection. But the company is not revealing any details or proposals yet.

“We’ll take it to the market after the development is completed,” is all Pheiffer will say. “We have no customers yet, although we have had enquiries. It is not being developed for any specific customer.” It seems safe to assume, however, that the British army will be most interested in an armoured, mine protected, all-terrain, multipurpose, light/medium vehicle that eliminates the one drawback of the otherwise highly successful Pinzgauer 1, namely its vulnerability to landmines and IEDs. If so, the transfer of the Pinzgauer 2 project to South Africa could lead to significant export orders for the local company.

The Pinzgauer 1 support business will remain in the UK.
http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article.php?a_id=125644

[R/cst]

Norwegian radar order may open more doors for SA company

By: Guy Copans (http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/author.php?u_id=162)
Published: 8 Feb 08 - 0:00
Radar technology company Reutech Radar Systems (RRS) has, in conjunction with Norway’s Electronicon, been awarded a R150-million four-year contract to supply radar equipment called RSR 210N to five ships in the Royal Norwegian Navy, says RRS business development manager export systems Anthony Green.

“It is a well-known fact that, owing to the capricious nature of the local defence market, smaller companies such as RRS cannot thrive on local business alone.

“We have done well to service the export market at subsystem level to date, and exports of mining equipment are also picking up, but with the success in Norway we now have an additional arrow in our quiver with which to pursue export opportunities.”

Green is hopeful that the RSR 210N order with Norway will improve RRS’s standing among international defence contractors, as well as the image of the South African defence industry, in general.
RRS plans to export the radar technology to various European shipyards and combat system integrators with which it has established relationships over the years, as well as into vessel upgrade programmes in the South African market. It also has plans to supply the technology to local naval programmes.

The purpose of the radars, developed in Stellenbosch by RRS, is to augment the current surveillance capabilities of the Norwegian vessels that are currently under contract to Spanish shipbuilder Navantia. Green asserts that the technical solution, the quality of supply, the technical risks, and price were the main criteria in the selection process.

“We were able to submit a very strong offer, which we could back up with a highly successful demonstration. The RSR 210N is technically superior to typical competitor systems, and we believe that the Royal Norwegian Navy was uncompromising in this regard,” he says.

Five radars in total, one for each of the five ships, as well as ship integration services in Norway and a logistics package including spares, training and documentation are being provided.
Each radar being supplied consists of a masthead unit comprising a stabilised platform, which provides a stable antenna orientation when a ship is experiencing pitch-and-roll. A set of racks below deck accommodates the transmitter, receiver and signal processor, and a dedicated radar operator display that provides control over the radar, as well as an air and surface radar picture, are also supplied.

The radar is a pulse Doppler unit that transmits a pulsetrain of electromagnetic waves. The receiver then ‘listens’ for echoed pulses, and exploits both the amplitude and phase characteristics of the reflected signal to discriminate the target from the background ‘clutter’, which may be land or sea reflections, or weather-induced, such as rain squalls.
The radar inherently and simultaneously illuminates this clutter along with the target, which normally compromises the radar’s ability to detect the target.

Green says that the exploitation of the Doppler characteristic by advanced signal processing, such as that performed by RSR 210N, allows the user to detect and track targets that are significantly smaller in terms of signal strength than the clutter, and would, thus, otherwise be undetectable by conventional systems.

The antenna used is unusual in that it is a slotted waveguide array, unlike previous systems that used reflector dish technology.
It, thus, has a much lower height profile, which results in it being more compact and using less realestate at the masthead, says Green. Further, he says, the radar will perform almost all signal processing in the software domain, unlike older-generation processors which performed these functions in the firmware domain. The benefits resulting from this, he notes, are better performance, lower implementation costs, and support.

The synthesiser employs the latest direct digital synthesis technology, which makes for highly stable signal generation, resulting directly in increased sensitivity and, hence, smaller target detection capability.

Green notes that the technology category of radar that RSR 210N falls into has been neglected over the past few years, as the trend has been for radar suppliers to move towards higher-end radar products to achieve greater performance at greater cost, or to move downmarket to produce lower-cost and higher volume radars at the expense of performance.

RRS recognised the gap that was opening in the market between these two categories, and harnessing modern hardware platforms and software development techniques permitted it to develop a product that produces higher-end performance, but at lower cost, he says.

The roots of the order date back to January 2006, when the Norwegian Defence Procurement Division (NDPD), which is a division of the Royal Norwegian Navy, sent out a public request for companies to apply for prequalification for the supply of helicopter control radars for its new 4600-ton Fridtjof Nansen-Class frigates.

RRS, together with Electronicon AS, submitted an offer in January 2007 for its X-Band air/sea surveillance radar. During the bid evaluation process, a technical work group from the NDPD visited RRS to evaluate it as a company, as well as the RSR 210N radar product.
The product was evaluated during a demonstration trial in February 2007. RRS and Electronicon were collectively invited to attend negotiations during the third and fourth quarter of 2007, and finalised negotiations by mid-December 2007.

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article.php?a_id=125634

[exT70]

SADF vs SANDF - which way to go
Max du Preez
February 14 2008 at 10:48AM

1. A lot can be said of the apartheid era defence force and the way they destabilised the neighbouring states. But they were a prime example of a highly disciplined force where party politics were banned; they were loyal to the government of the day.

This culture of discipline and of being above party politics saved our transition to democracy from derailing.

2. In 1993 and early 1994 a former SADF chief, General Constand Viljoen, mobilised thousands of white men under arms to threaten the negotiating politicians with a coup.

The then chief of the SADF, General George Meiring, quickly mobilised a force and for a while they (made up of mostly white Afrikaners) squared up the Viljoen force (made up of mostly white Afrikaners). Viljoen backed down.

But when he was head of the SADF, he followed the principle of staying loyal to the government of the day. He went on to assist with the integration of several forces into the new SANDF.

3. Apla was at its most active ever in 1993 and 1994. (The Apla commander at the time, Letlapa Mphahlele, is about to be prosecuted for those crimes.)

4. Unfortunately the leadership in the SANDF wasn't strong enough to turn it into a professional force after 1994. Too many soldiers behave as if they belong to some African warlord's private army.

5. The force was quickly purged of some of the most experienced soldiers of the old SADF and promotions to the highest ranks sometimes appear to come out of a lucky packet.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20080214103325596C985545#comment_top_box


1. Well, f&ck me! Max Du Preez saying something positive about the SADF! Now I've seen everything....

2. SADF already in '91 started preparing for an "internal fight". Conventional forces were kept on stand-by and changed training to "own forces" type of scenario.

3. Personally my experience of ex-APLA members are very positive. Almost all of the handfull of ex-non statutory forces leadergroup members that I've met or worked with, that were very professional, capable and just plain very good soldiers and that I'd gladly serve with/under, have been ex-APLA. Maybe I've been lucky, because some of the other groups have been terrible...

4. Third time in 2 days that I say this: You don't get bad soldiers, just bad leaders.

5. All that experience has been totally lost and cannot be regained. Somebody will have to bleed to regain it. The fighters that left/got pushed out are now too old or have lost too much in the last 20 years since the end of the war. Sad indeed.

[ingletonr]

Looks like SA is on the fast track to becoming a one-party state. :-(

It already is.

[steelrudi]

Afirmative"Blacktion" is destroying the once strong SADF/SANDF. Ineptitude, and corruption rule the day, and if not careful you all will end up like the RLI. Gone! Mugabe wrecked his nation, now you have those that will do it to yours. We have Obama, and Clinton. You have Zuma. I dont know which is worse. All our nations are slowly dying from within. We lack the fortitude to stand up to those in power, and it is costing us. More importantly, it is our children who will suffer for our short comings.

[slobo]

Deleted message

[Piepalook]

1. Well, f&ck me! Max Du Preez saying something positive about the SADF! Now I've seen everything....

2. SADF already in '91 started preparing for an "internal fight". Conventional forces were kept on stand-by and changed training to "own forces" type of scenario.

3. Personally my experience of ex-APLA members are very positive. Almost all of the handfull of ex-non statutory forces leadergroup members that I've met or worked with, that were very professional, capable and just plain very good soldiers and that I'd gladly serve with/under, have been ex-APLA. Maybe I've been lucky, because some of the other groups have been terrible...

4. Third time in 2 days that I say this: You don't get bad soldiers, just bad leaders.

5. All that experience has been totally lost and cannot be regained. Somebody will have to bleed to regain it. The fighters that left/got pushed out are now too old or have lost too much in the last 20 years since the end of the war. Sad indeed.

It seems old Max saw the error of his ways!
Whatever made him do an about turn?

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Good thread, I cant believe I missed this...I am definitely coming back to read it all.

[Piepalook]

Here's a question. Can MI from the SANDF do anything to me regarding stuff I say about the SADF?


If you signed the Official secrets act,as we all had to,you have to keep things to yourself for a period of 21 years.

You can get prosecuted.

For most of us that period passed long ago.

I noticed a lot of "illegal videos" appearing on the internet lately.
I had a look at a video taken in the operational area of a Koevoet (Crowbar) detachment in a hot persuit ops today.
It certainly brings back memories.

In the video they also show troops with their feet hanging out a Puma chopper.
(Those were the days............)

[wilhelm]

I see there is going to be a general release of Apartheid-era secret information shortly.

Be interesting to see some of the weapons programmes.....

[Piepalook]

I see there is going to be a general release of Apartheid-era secret information shortly.

Be interesting to see some of the weapons programmes.....

Lots of stuff about the biological warfare programme and the nuclear programme will be hushed up though.

It would be interesting to see some other classified info.

They would also hush up the true range and ballistics of the G5 and G6 cannon.
Do not believe everything you read in Janes.

Most secrets will be covered up .

I see they did de-classify the site where the nuclear tests were to be conducted.

What happened to the other nuclear device that was not dismantled would forever remain a mystery.............

[TGVorster]

Piepalook the true range of the G5 is not as secret as you think and the nuclear weapons program was recently exposed in a book.

However don't pin your hope on anything. I recently spent a frustrating day at the Military Documentation Centre identifying documents for declassifcation under the Freedom of Information Act. You are just gievn a list of documents and have to id the documents you want from this list. However many showed that they were destroyed. A Colonel there told me that they spent almost a year shredding documents.

As to the official secrets act. Remember that the freedom of information act states that if it has no bearing on current operations or can harm people it can be made public.

[Rudolph]

One would think that certain people within the ANC would want all the bad stuff from the SADF to come out. But I read they destroyed, obviously, a lot just before the handover, but why then destroy more under ANC rule? It must serve someone's political motive.

[Piepalook]

One would think that certain people within the ANC would want all the bad stuff from the SADF to come out. But I read they destroyed, obviously, a lot just before the handover, but why then destroy more under ANC rule? It must serve someone's political motive.
What i find extremely strange, is Wouter Basson's trail.
Everybody in the ANC was positive they would find him guilty.

In the end he got off scott free.
He used to spend weekends on a game farm with me during his first trail.

He always knew he would not be found guilty.
What i can tell you is that strange things happened at Roodeplaat dam.

That is where the biological warfare programme was run by him.
Even today it officially does not exist.

I also had the doubtfull honor of driving in the G5 support truck once.(loaded full of ammo)
I can tell you that is a huge truck.It's one and a half times as wide as a Ford Louisville truck.

The ammo i saw still keep me awake at night.
It had those three inverted yellow triangles on them.

Nasty stuff.

A friend of mine was married to the daughter of the Big boss of Lyttleton Engineering works.

This was whilst the G5 and G6 was still undergoing tests.
The general public did not know about the cannon.

[GETSOME]

Piepalook the true range of the G5 is not as secret as you think and the nuclear weapons program was recently exposed in a book.

However don't pin your hope on anything. I recently spent a frustrating day at the Military Documentation Centre identifying documents for declassifcation under the Freedom of Information Act. You are just gievn a list of documents and have to id the documents you want from this list. However many showed that they were destroyed. A Colonel there told me that they spent almost a year shredding documents.

As to the official secrets act. Remember that the freedom of information act states that if it has no bearing on current operations or can harm people it can be made public.
Is it possible to look throught your military records,or get them?

[Piepalook]

Is it possible to look throught your military records,or get them?

I am positive that you can.
Some stuff you won't get hold of.
Somehow they do not like to give info of certain things you were involved in.
If you still remember your army number and the last unit you were in,you might be able to access your file at the closest command to your last unit.

[GETSOME]

I am positive that you can.
Some stuff you won't get hold of.
Somehow they do not like to give info of certain things you were involved in.
If you still remember your army number and the last unit you were in,you might be able to access your file at the closest command to your last unit.
Thanks,your force number you never forget.p-)

[Piepalook]

I was in 6SAI Grahamstown July 79 intake.

After infantry basics i was selected to join the SADF Equestrian centre in Potchefstroom.(Horse soldier, not motorbikes)

We were the first unit in the SADF to be issued with the R5 rifles (Galil)
because of the folding stock.
It was a better rifle than the R1 (Belgian FN) because the rifle was more comfortable to cart around on horseback.

I was in platoon 17 based in sector 10 Kaokoland Namibia (SWA)

The base was at a villiage called Etengua .

[Piepalook]

Thanks,your force number you never forget.p-)

76527829BT

True.
You never forget that.

[Piepalook]

My mother might still have photo's of us on operations.

If i can find it i will post them.

One advantage of being on horseback was that a horse could smell a landmine from a mile away.

No horse ever detonated a mine.

In that respect we were lucky.

Luckier than most anyway.

[Rudolph]

What i find extremely strange, is Wouter Basson's trail.
Everybody in the ANC was positive they would find him guilty.

In the end he got off scott free.
He used to spend weekends on a game farm with me during his first trail.

He always knew he would not be found guilty.
What i can tell you is that strange things happened at Roodeplaat dam.

That is where the biological warfare programme was run by him.
Even today it officially does not exist.

Well, in Magnus Malan's autobiography he mentions that people came to speak to Nelson Mandela to tell him that our CBW programme was ahead of that of the USA, and then Mandela personally went against policy and rehired Basson into the SANDF with a R50 000 salary a month. He is: The Man Who Knows Too Much! It was suggested by certain Western governments that he should rather be assassinated, but I guess Mandela chose the non-violent route...

[Piepalook]

Well, in Magnus Malan's autobiography he mentions that people came to speak to tell Nelson Mandela to tell him that our CBW programme was ahead of that of the USA, and then Mandela personally went against policy and rehired Basson into the SANDF with a R50 000 salary a month. He is: The Man Who Knows Too Much! It was suggested by certain Western governments that he should rather be assassinated, but I guess Mandela chose the forgiving route...

I think that the ANC could use a man with talents such as his.

A remarkable man.

He is also a heart surgeon.
Amazing but true.

He devised ways of killing that other countries do not even dream of.

I cannot see the ANC getting rid of talent such as his.
They might need him in future.

[GETSOME]

I was in 6SAI Grahamstown July 79 intake.

After infantry basics i was selected to join the SADF Equestrian centre in Potchefstroom.(Horse soldier, not motorbikes)

We were the first unit in the SADF to be issued with the R5 rifles (Galil)
because of the folding stock.
It was a better rifle than the R1 (Belgian FN) because the rifle was more comfortable to cart around on horseback.

I was in platoon 17 based in sector 10 Kaokoland Namibia (SWA)

The base was at a villiage called Etengua .
2 SAI Walvis Bay 9 months infantry training,then to Oshikati 9 months,then Rundu 3months. 83236174BT
86 Intake

[GETSOME]

My mother might still have photo's of us on operations.

If i can find it i will post them.

One advantage of being on horseback was that a horse could smell a landmine from a mile away.

No horse ever detonated a mine.

In that respect we were lucky.

Luckier than most anyway.
I remember in Sector 10,we spent a few days at Okatopi Ranch,**** those horses, you dont hear them until they are on top of you:)

[Piepalook]

2 SAI Walvis Bay 9 months infantry training,then to Oshikati 9 months,then Rundu 3months. 83236174BT
86 Intake

Are you still in the country?
Seems that most people left.

I stay in Parys in the Free state.

Too old or to stubborn to leave.

[Piepalook]

I remember in Sector 10,we spent a few days at Okatopi Ranch,**** those horses, you dont hear them until they are on top of you:)

That was why they were so successfull.

Quiet.
Fast.

They used to warn us of danger.
They could also smell a terr from a mile off.

They used to pull their ears back, when there was danger.
Then we would be on guard.

For bush fighting there is nothing like a war horse.

[TGVorster]

As an acredited researcher with the SANDF DocC I can tell you pretty much any thing is fair game. If you have the time you will be able to find your whole record. If I for instance asked for your record alot will be ommited but if the bloke about who it is asks it wont. Remember my explanation on the freedom of information act.

I know a few blokes who worked with Wouter. He wasn't busted on his so called human rights abuses rather for the 2 million tablets of E he had in his car's boot. They just tried to knock him on the former and when that flopped the drug charge seemed trivial.

I have requested masses of once very sensisitive documents and the stuff is being declassified as we speak. War diaries, the basis of any historian's research, made up the bulk of the documents and hey wouldn't you know it they are declassifying it.

In fact they are declassifying whole collections of documents. For instance in the case of Cuito the so called JF Huyser collection which contains no less than 150 documents including SitReps, Y Reports, the Army's official histories of the operations, War Diaries, reports on doctrinal development, etc, etc. I have also been told that the Army HQ List and some other lists are also now avialable. I have also requested the War Diaries for Sector 10 and 20 for the period 1978-1989 and the for some of the earlier operations such as Askari, Protea and Diasy.

The declassifying will take long however and I welcome this new proposed act as it will cut down alot on time. It will also give you access to the about 45 million boxes of documents that the Doc Cen has in storage.

[Piepalook]

As an acredited researcher with the SANDF DocC I can tell you pretty much any thing is fair game. If you have the time you will be able to find your whole record. If I for instance asked for your record alot will be ommited but if the bloke about who it is asks it wont. Remember my explanation on the freedom of information act.

I know a few blokes who worked with Wouter. He wasn't busted on his so called human rights abuses rather for the 2 million tablets of E he had in his car's boot. They just tried to knock him on the former and when that flopped the drug charge seemed trivial.

I have requested masses of once very sensisitive documents and the stuff is being declassified as we speak. War diaries, the basis of any historian's research, made up the bulk of the documents and hey wouldn't you know it they are declassifying it.

In fact they are declassifying whole collections of documents. For instance in the case of Cuito the so called JF Huyser collection which contains no less than 150 documents including SitReps, Y Reports, the Army's official histories of the operations, War Diaries, reports on doctrinal development, etc, etc. I have also been told that the Army HQ List and some other lists are also now avialable. I have also requested the War Diaries for Sector 10 and 20 for the period 1978-1989 and the for some of the earlier operations such as Askari, Protea and Diasy.

The declassifying will take long however and I welcome this new proposed act as it will cut down alot on time. It will also give you access to the about 45 million boxes of documents that the Doc Cen has in storage.
The 2 million tablets of E was supposed to go to the people of Mitchells plain.(on government orders)
Happy people do not riot!

Are you writing a book?

We need to set the record straight on the battle of Cuito Canevalle.
The ANC wants to hi-jack that one!

We had quite a skirmish once at Etengua base. It was in 1985 i think.
I did a camp with Durban regiment at the time.
Never read anything about that.
Sam Njoma's dessert troops attacked us that night.
(they did not expect to find battle hardened veterans there!)
Needless to say we gave them a hiding!

There i saw the most incredible thing in my life.
A koevoet guy shooting a Ovambo at 300 metres in the knee, with an AK 47.
( after he told us he is going to go for the knee.The Ovambo was running diagonally from us.) it was text book shooting.

The Ovambo in question was there to look after the army donkeys.
In the rainy season the donkeys were used to bring supplies in to us.
The only Ovambo around for miles.
He used the army donkeys to transport Swapo's heavy equipment to our base so that Swapo could attack us.

[cold_warrior]

As an acredited researcher with the SANDF DocC I can tell you pretty much any thing is fair game. If you have the time you will be able to find your whole record. If I for instance asked for your record alot will be ommited but if the bloke about who it is asks it wont. Remember my explanation on the freedom of information act.

I know a few blokes who worked with Wouter. He wasn't busted on his so called human rights abuses rather for the 2 million tablets of E he had in his car's boot. They just tried to knock him on the former and when that flopped the drug charge seemed trivial.

I have requested masses of once very sensisitive documents and the stuff is being declassified as we speak. War diaries, the basis of any historian's research, made up the bulk of the documents and hey wouldn't you know it they are declassifying it.

In fact they are declassifying whole collections of documents. For instance in the case of Cuito the so called JF Huyser collection which contains no less than 150 documents including SitReps, Y Reports, the Army's official histories of the operations, War Diaries, reports on doctrinal development, etc, etc. I have also been told that the Army HQ List and some other lists are also now avialable. I have also requested the War Diaries for Sector 10 and 20 for the period 1978-1989 and the for some of the earlier operations such as Askari, Protea and Diasy.

The declassifying will take long however and I welcome this new proposed act as it will cut down alot on time. It will also give you access to the about 45 million boxes of documents that the Doc Cen has in storage.

That's good to hear, thanks for your work. I'd like to see a history of the whole situation that goes beyond "Nelson Mandela: wasn't he a great guy?," which seems to be all we can get in the States.

[TGVorster]

Thanks guys. Yes I am writing a book been at it for about two years now, but only started taking off now. Will keep you boys posted.

[Piepalook]

Thanks guys. Yes I am writing a book been at it for about two years now, but only started taking off now. Will keep you boys posted.

I read a book a while ago called :"from afkak to bosbefok!"Some girl wrote it.She quoted a few guys like Jeremy Mansfield from radio Highveld.A real wusy book in some respects.She quoted a lot of homo******s as well.They, however were not in the thick of it.Mostly clerks and tampax tiffies. Made fun of us mostly (Afrikaners)I would like to read yours.We need to put a lot in perspective.I wish you all the best with the book.

[TGVorster]

She is Jeremy Mansfield's wife writing under her maiden name.

I am actualy busy with three books. The first will be a straight shooting history at tactical level with personal experiences of vets added in of Ops Modular/Hooper/Packer. The second will be the history of 61 Mech. The last depends on how many inputs I get from the vets and will be a compilation of viewpoints and experiences from Ops Modular/Hooper/Packer under specific headings.

Thank you for the support hope I wont dissapoint.

[Piepalook]

She is Jeremy Mansfield's wife writing under her maiden name.

I am actualy busy with three books. The first will be a straight shooting history at tactical level with personal experiences of vets added in of Ops Modular/Hooper/Packer. The second will be the history of 61 Mech. The last depends on how many inputs I get from the vets and will be a compilation of viewpoints and experiences from Ops Modular/Hooper/Packer under specific headings.

Thank you for the support hope I wont dissapoint.

Please do not forget about Cuito Canevalle.The ANC is so desperate for a military victory that they are distorting the facts.They were not even involved in that battle.Is there some way also that you can honor the fallen SADF soldiers?Their names do not appear anywhere.The ANC saw to that.Only their soldiers names on the wall of remembrance.We should never forget them.I had some friends that died there.

[Rudolph]

Can't wait for the books. Most of you guys did your service to the country and received no recognition, that's a disgrace.

[Piepalook]

Can't wait for the books. Most of you guys did your service to the country and received no recognition, that's a disgrace.

Our time will come..........

[TGVorster]

Modular/Hooper/Packer is the so called battle of Cuito Cuanavale. There never was a battle for the town closed was the three Tumpo battles.

[Piepalook]

Modular/Hooper/Packer is the so called battle of Cuito Cuanavale. There never was a battle for the town closed was the three Tumpo battles.

I know.The town never was the objective.Thanks for getting the word out.

[DanteXavier]

South African Air Force Atlas Cheetah C on exercise:
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/647/1339168lc4.jpg

[Piepalook]

South African Air Force Atlas Cheetah C on exercise:
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/647/1339168lc4.jpg
Sad that they flew for the last time last week.
The end of an era.
Do you know if the new planes arrived yet?

[Rudolph]

Ja, last week the Cheetah's took to their last flight. Can't find any English articles on it though. Biggest Cheetah-formation too I believe.

The 60 fighters cost R3,5 billion and was made in conjuction with Israel according to recent articles.

[Piepalook]

Ja, last week the Cheetah's took to their last flight. Can't find any English articles on it though. Biggest Cheetah-formation too I believe.

The 60 fighters cost R3,5 billion and was made in conjuction with Israel according to recent articles.

I wonder what will happen to them?
Are they going to be sold?
Or would they go on display?

[cold_warrior]

Ja, last week the Cheetah's took to their last flight. Can't find any English articles on it though. Biggest Cheetah-formation too I believe.

The 60 fighters cost R3,5 billion and was made in conjuction with Israel according to recent articles.

Got a link to any article on it?

[Rudolph]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=131910

[cold_warrior]

Thanks for the link.

[DanteXavier]

Well, in honor of this noteworthy and rather depressing occasion, I'll post some more Cheetah photos I had stored on the HD:

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4402/2380sk5.jpg
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1953/2385qt7.jpg
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1273/3418wz8.jpg

[DanteXavier]

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4972/707ig0.jpg
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/5848/2073bc1.jpg
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8295/2382dh1.jpg
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/6158/2791ie7.jpg

[DanteXavier]

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6456/00848841py7.jpg
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/106/00571736oj4.jpg
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6457/00571735yo6.jpg

[Piepalook]

Beautifull photos!

Thank you very much!

[Piepalook]

Cheetah's last flight
I apologise for the small photo

[Piepalook]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdPi4vdIL7M&feature=related

Here the Rooivalk is doing a 360 degree loop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXLfpeyRzfc

[Piepalook]

I found this video of French pilots flying in the African Bush.
The best low level Mirage flying i have ever seen.

I know this is off topic, but there are South Africans in the video.
(you can see them clasping their ears in the beginning of the video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKg6kCSWvfI&feature=related

These guys are absolutely nuts.
I would be afraid of hitting a cow or donkey!

[DanteXavier]

Rooivalk

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/tdPi4vdIL7M&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/SXLfpeyRzfc

Crazy mirage pilots over the African bush:

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/aKg6kCSWvfI&feature=related

Same vids Piepalook, I just embedded them for ya.

[Piepalook]

Rooivalk

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/tdPi4vdIL7M&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/SXLfpeyRzfc

Crazy mirage pilots over the African bush:

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/aKg6kCSWvfI&feature=related

Same vids Piepalook, I just embedded them for ya.

Thanks.
I am slightly disadvantaged in the embed process!:oops:

[Clint_Durban]

32 Battalion (SADF) tribute video

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbJUozIdNcM

32 Battalion website
http://www.32battalion.net/ (http://www.32battalion.net/)

Known amongst Friend and Foe as "The Terrible Ones" (Os Terriveis), this reputation was derived from operational successes and from its inception in 1975 until it's disbandment it was the most feared Unit by it's foes in Angola and South West Africa, and accounted for more enemy losses than any other Unit of the South African Defence Force. 32-Battalion was probably the most controversial unit of the SADF and its story virtually the untold story of the SWA/ Namibian Border War - a war which took place against the back-drop of the Cold War and which was in fact anything but cold in Africa. The battalion, which also became known as the most successful counter insurgency unit of the SADF, was comprised mainly of former FNLA and other anti-communist fighters from Angola who had sworn allegiance to the South African government. Together with their South African officers, these troops forged a formidable battalion that became known as the best operational Battalion of the South African Defence Force -- if not one of the best in the world.

[Piepalook]

32 Battalion (SADF) tribute video

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbJUozIdNcM

32 Battalion website
http://www.32battalion.net/ (http://www.32battalion.net/)

Known amongst Friend and Foe as "The Terrible Ones" (Os Terriveis), this reputation was derived from operational successes and from its inception in 1975 until it's disbandment it was the most feared Unit by it's foes in Angola and South West Africa, and accounted for more enemy losses than any other Unit of the South African Defence Force. 32-Battalion was probably the most controversial unit of the SADF and its story virtually the untold story of the SWA/ Namibian Border War - a war which took place against the back-drop of the Cold War and which was in fact anything but cold in Africa. The battalion, which also became known as the most successful counter insurgency unit of the SADF, was comprised mainly of former FNLA and other anti-communist fighters from Angola who had sworn allegiance to the South African government. Together with their South African officers, these troops forged a formidable battalion that became known as the best operational Battalion of the South African Defence Force -- if not one of the best in the world.

Yes,
They did us proud.
Then they were thrown to the dogs.
We should be ashamed...........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJF4pkBn3aA

[Piepalook]

A few Photos of SADF Equestrian (mounted) SADF soldiers:

Photo 1.
A mounted soldier approaching a buffel to get water for himself and his horse.
The area where fighting took place was arid and in winter water was scarce.
The buffel usually had water in it's tank under the bin.A buffel alwas was a welcome sight.

Photo 2.

A armoured horse box for transporting horses.

Photo 3

In hot persuit.

Photo 4

In hot persuit.

Photo 5

Standing to at sunset.
Normally the most vulnerable time of day.
SWAPO normally attacked at sunset.
At sunset or sunrise we were at our most viligant.

[GETSOME]

Do the NCOs in the SANDF now wear their rank on their collars?
Anyone have any pics please,thanks.

[Ironsight06]

Nice pics Piepalook. Is that a horse-box on that Kwevoel? Pretty unique.

[Piepalook]

Nice pics Piepalook. Is that a horse-box on that Kwevoel? Pretty unique.

Yes, that is a horse box for transporting horses.

[Piepalook]

Do the NCOs in the SANDF now wear their rank on their collars?
Anyone have any pics please,thanks.

No, they do not.

NCO's wear their rank on their shoulder sleeves.
Officers still wear it on their shoulders.

[baboon6]

No, they do not.

NCO's wear their rank on their shoulder sleeves.
Officers still wear it on their shoulders.

Depends what uniform they're in. In the Soldier2000 camos, all SA Army personnel wear rank insignia on the collar:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/1664/aausizedlk0.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aausizedlk0.jpg)

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/2179/aavhg1.th.jpg (http://img370.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aavhg1.jpg)

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/7168/coldhlaminiwr5.th.jpg (http://img391.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coldhlaminiwr5.jpg)
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/31/ltcolesterhuysethumbsn5.th.jpg (http://img395.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ltcolesterhuysethumbsn5.jpg)

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3400/mapef4.th.jpg (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapef4.jpg)


http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/61/screen200602131659564gafa8.th.jpg (http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screen200602131659564gafa8.jpg)

In service dress and khakis rank is worn in the traditional places:

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/9572/guardsbo6.th.jpg (http://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guardsbo6.jpg)

http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/6995/ltcolmellitcheyie3.th.jpg (http://img368.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ltcolmellitcheyie3.jpg)

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/7659/screen200602101637174galw8.th.jpg (http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screen200602101637174galw8.jpg)

Current rank insignia chart:

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8537/saarmyrankks8.th.gif (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=saarmyrankks8.gif)

[Piepalook]

Depends what uniform they're in. In the Soldier2000 camos, all SA Army personnel wear rank insignia on the collar:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/1664/aausizedlk0.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aausizedlk0.jpg)

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/2179/aavhg1.th.jpg (http://img370.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aavhg1.jpg)

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/7168/coldhlaminiwr5.th.jpg (http://img391.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coldhlaminiwr5.jpg)
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/31/ltcolesterhuysethumbsn5.th.jpg (http://img395.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ltcolesterhuysethumbsn5.jpg)

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3400/mapef4.th.jpg (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapef4.jpg)


http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/61/screen200602131659564gafa8.th.jpg (http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screen200602131659564gafa8.jpg)

In service dress and khakis rank is worn in the traditional places:

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/9572/guardsbo6.th.jpg (http://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guardsbo6.jpg)

http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/6995/ltcolmellitcheyie3.th.jpg (http://img368.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ltcolmellitcheyie3.jpg)

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/7659/screen200602101637174galw8.th.jpg (http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screen200602101637174galw8.jpg)

Current rank insignia chart:

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8537/saarmyrankks8.th.gif (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=saarmyrankks8.gif)

Thanks, i did not know that.

[drevil5000]

Trooping the colour parade, South Africa.


http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_Queens150012Small.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/Queens150012Small.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_Queens150013Small.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/Queens150013Small.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_Queens150014Small.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/Queens150014Small.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_Queens150019Small.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/Queens150019Small.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_Queens150025Small.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/Queens150025Small.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1119730_9392.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1119730_9392.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1119731_9735.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1119731_9735.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1119732_82.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1119732_82.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1119733_433.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1119733_433.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1119734_784.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1119734_784.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1119735_1127.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1119735_1127.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1119736_2137.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1119736_2137.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121076_8667.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121076_8667.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121078_6940.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121078_6940.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121079_1662.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121079_1662.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121081_7923.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121081_7923.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121082_8437.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121082_8437.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121084_5548.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121084_5548.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121086_4033.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121086_4033.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121087_7979.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121087_7979.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121089_8101.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121089_8101.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121091_665.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121091_665.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n897910178_2838989_2218.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n897910178_2838989_2218.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n897910178_2838990_2506.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n897910178_2838990_2506.jpg)

[baboon6]

Which school are those cadets from Drevil?

[drevil5000]

Which school are those cadets from Drevil?

Queens College

[Piepalook]

Trooping the colour parade, South Africa.


http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_Queens150012Small.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/Queens150012Small.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_Queens150013Small.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/Queens150013Small.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_Queens150014Small.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/Queens150014Small.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_Queens150019Small.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/Queens150019Small.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_Queens150025Small.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/Queens150025Small.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1119730_9392.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1119730_9392.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1119731_9735.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1119731_9735.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1119732_82.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1119732_82.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1119733_433.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1119733_433.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1119734_784.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1119734_784.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1119735_1127.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1119735_1127.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1119736_2137.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1119736_2137.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121076_8667.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121076_8667.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121078_6940.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121078_6940.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121079_1662.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121079_1662.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121081_7923.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121081_7923.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121082_8437.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121082_8437.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121084_5548.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121084_5548.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121086_4033.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121086_4033.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121087_7979.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121087_7979.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121089_8101.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121089_8101.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n599631006_1121091_665.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n599631006_1121091_665.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n897910178_2838989_2218.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n897910178_2838989_2218.jpg)
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/th_n897910178_2838990_2506.jpg (http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/n897910178_2838990_2506.jpg)

Good to see some traditions kept.
Nice photo's.
Thanks.

[drevil5000]

Some pictures my dad took during his time in the army.

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/Falconry1.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/Falconry2.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/Owambo.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/barracks.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/buffel1.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/buffel2.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/buffel3.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/helicopter.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/helicopter1.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/plane.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/plane1.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/plane_soldiers.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldier.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers1.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers10.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers11.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers2.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers3.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers4.jpg

[Piepalook]

Some pictures my dad took during his time in the army.

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/Falconry1.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/Falconry2.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/Owambo.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/barracks.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/buffel1.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/buffel2.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/buffel3.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/helicopter.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/helicopter1.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/plane.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/plane1.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/plane_soldiers.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldier.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers1.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers10.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers11.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers2.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers3.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers4.jpg
Hell, it brings back memories!
Where was the first photo taken?
Voortrekkerhoogte?
Nice Photos
Thanks!

[drevil5000]

Hell, it brings back memories!
Where was the first photo taken?
Voortrekkerhoogte?
Nice Photos
Thanks!

The first two were taken at waterkloof airforce base.

[GETSOME]

Queens College

They still do cadets in South Africa?

[drevil5000]

They still do cadets in South Africa?

I think most schools have done away with it but every year Queens kicks of the reunion weekend with this parade.

A few years ago the department of education tried to force the school to stop cadets saying it was racist and was promoting colonialism. The school refused to stop and nothing came of it.

[GETSOME]

[quote=baboon6;3221241]Depends what uniform they're in. In the Soldier2000 camos, all SA Army personnel wear rank insignia on the collar:

[/URL]

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/2179/aavhg1.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aausizedlk0.jpg)


(http://img391.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coldhlaminiwr5.jpg)


Thanks for that info.
I see he is wearing the tracker badge above his wings,i thought only the wings went on your left side.
Is that badge above the skiet balkie still awarded?

(http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapef4.jpg)



(http://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guardsbo6.jpg)




[URL="http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=saarmyrankks8.gif"] (http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screen200602101637174galw8.jpg)

[Piepalook]

[quote=GETSOME;3232036][quote=baboon6;3221241]Depends what uniform they're in. In the Soldier2000 camos, all SA Army personnel wear rank insignia on the collar:



http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/2179/aavhg1.th.jpg (http://img370.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aavhg1.jpg)





Thanks for that info.
I see he is wearing the tracker badge above his wings,i thought only the wings went on your left side.
Is that badge above the skiet balkie still awarded?/quote]
Is he a major?
What rank does he hold?

[GETSOME]

[/URL][URL="http://img370.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aavhg1.jpg"] (http://img370.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aavhg1.jpg)






Is he a major?
What rank does he hold?[/quote]

His a RSM.p-)

[GETSOME]

Is he a major?
What rank does he hold?

Hes a RSM.p-)

[baboon6]

Here are some pics of SAS Isandlwana (and SAS Amatola behind her) at the V & A Waterfront in Cape Town on Sunday. Unfortunately I didn't know the frigates (or the Brazilian and Indian ships) were going to be there. Otherwise a) I would have gone earlier so I could go aboard Isandlwana and b) taken my camera with (I left it in Joburg). Sorry for the poor quality, was using my cellphone.

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/1404/11052008056zj1.th.jpg (http://img103.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11052008056zj1.jpg)

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9189/11052008057wi8.th.jpg (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11052008057wi8.jpg)

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/829/11052008058uu8.th.jpg (http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11052008058uu8.jpg)

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8016/11052008055yl4.th.jpg (http://img72.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11052008055yl4.jpg)

[baboon6]

Don't know if this has been posted before. This is a report on Exercise Young Eagle, an SA Army airborne exercise held last year, by McGill Alexander, a retired Brig Gen and former paratrooper. Some of you may have read his MA dissertation on the Cassinga operation.

http://www.sainfantry.co.za/comment.php?comment.news.33

[exT70]

[quote=GETSOME;3232036][quote=baboon6;3221241]Depends what uniform they're in. In the Soldier2000 camos, all SA Army personnel wear rank insignia on the collar:



http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/2179/aavhg1.th.jpg (http://img370.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aavhg1.jpg)





Thanks for that info.
I see he is wearing the tracker badge above his wings,i thought only the wings went on your left side.
Is that badge above the skiet balkie still awarded?/quote]
Is he a major?
What rank does he hold?

Been away for a while.
Cannot properly see badge on left.
Badge on right above name and "skietbalkie" is reserve volunteer badge.
Badge has been replaced with a new one, but it is still worn.
Hope this picture is old, as both badges is old and has been replaced. Will not do for an RSM to be incorrectly dressed.
Picture originally posted with this one shows the previous major's rank insignia. Now a finer and smaller badge. Hope picture of maj is also old one. We no longer tuck in our shirts. Went out with the "bunt" version (old habbits however die hard). "Balkies" is olso no longer as a rule worn on berrets.

[GETSOME]

[quote=Piepalook;3238347][quote=GETSOME;3232036]

Been away for a while.
Cannot properly see badge on left.
Badge on right above name and "skietbalkie" is reserve volunteer badge.
Badge has been replaced with a new one, but it is still worn.
Hope this picture is old, as both badges is old and has been replaced. Will not do for an RSM to be incorrectly dressed.
Picture originally posted with this one shows the previous major's rank insignia. Now a finer and smaller badge. Hope picture of maj is also old one. We no longer tuck in our shirts. Went out with the "bunt" version (old habbits however die hard). "Balkies" is olso no longer as a rule worn on berrets.

The badge above his wings is a ratel,tracker badge.
Do you know what the new skiet balkie and volunteer badge look like?
The old volunteer badge ,was awarded to who,and what was the critria for its award?

[exT70]

[quote=exT70;3296146][quote=Piepalook;3238347]

The badge above his wings is a ratel,tracker badge.
Do you know what the new skiet balkie and volunteer badge look like?
The old volunteer badge ,was awarded to who,and what was the critria for its award?

Just the colouring on the "skietbalkie" and nametags that changed. All tags etc now in the green/brown which is part of the background found in the cammo of the shirt. Allows tags to blend in better with cammos than brown current version.

Volunteer badge upgrade very much out of date as it only now replaces the "Castle" (as previously done many years ago with the erstwhile rank badges) with the new "pride of lions" shield. Further still very similar. Can be issued with volunteer badge after 5 years of volunteer service in the reserves. I don't wear one. Just another "thank you for arriving and being here" prize, not for doing anything. Same with 99% of the gongs going around. It seems they might even be giving out gongs for Ex Bata of last year. Next they'll hand out gongs for successfully going to the bog. We're becomming like the Yanks now.

[GETSOME]

[quote=GETSOME;3296259][quote=exT70;3296146]

Just the colouring on the "skietbalkie" and nametags that changed. All tags etc now in the green/brown which is part of the background found in the cammo of the shirt. Allows tags to blend in better with cammos than brown current version.

Volunteer badge upgrade very much out of date as it only now replaces the "Castle" (as previously done many years ago with the erstwhile rank badges) with the new "pride of lions" shield. Further still very similar. Can be issued with volunteer badge after 5 years of volunteer service in the reserves. I don't wear one. Just another "thank you for arriving and being here" prize, not for doing anything. Same with 99% of the gongs going around. It seems they might even be giving out gongs for Ex Bata of last year. Next they'll hand out gongs for successfully going to the bog. We're becomming like the Yanks now.

Do you know what year the volunteer badge first came out?
How come i did get one ,was in the reserves from 1988-1998?

[GETSOME]

Same with 99% of the gongs going around. It seems they might even be giving out gongs for Ex Batta of las year. Next they'll hand out gongs for successfully going to the bog.

Its Africa,soon they will be awarding those` bottle cap`type awards,like you see those generals in Africa wearing.:)

[exT70]

[quote=exT70;3298548][quote=GETSOME;3296259]

Do you know what year the volunteer badge first came out?
How come i did get one ,was in the reserves from 1988-1998?

No idea when it was first issued, but was some time ago. Some members seem to wear ones that look older than they are!
Getting one? Serve in a reserve unit and apply for one. No idea if you can get one after you leave (don't think it is like a medal in that regard). Reserve Units (Inf at least) countrywide are getting quite active again. Not like late 90's and early 2000's. There are now basically constantly people on deployment somewhere and units all over are growing again. Not too long ago only one or two units were up to anything (RldR & CTH mostly), but now it seems everybody is waking up. Will see how long it lasts.

[Britboy]

Afternoon all, I started another thread about this, but was pointed here, so here goes. I was wondering how the SANDF compares to the older SADF, and if anyone here has served in/had experience of both? Since there seems to be a general feeling that the SADF were v effective, how does the newer force rate? I understand there was the Military Skills Development programme recently?

Cheers
BB

[exT70]

Afternoon all, I started another thread about this, but was pointed here, so here goes. I was wondering how the SANDF compares to the older SADF, and if anyone here has served in/had experience of both? Since there seems to be a general feeling that the SADF were v effective, how does the newer force rate? I understand there was the Military Skills Development programme recently?

Cheers
BB
Any comparison between the SADF and SANDF would be grossly unfair. The SADF in the 80's was a force on semi-war footing, utilising huge budgets, drawing (picking) members from the whole of society and having the backing (propaganda and otherwise) of most of the then ruling "class", as well as full bacing of church and state. Countering what was referred to as "the total onslaught" and the big "red danger" ("rooi gevaar").
The SANDF is not on war footing, has a much smaller % of the GDP budget wise, has fewer members, has certain social debts to pay to certain members, is used to a certain extent as a socialist support structure, is not "backed" by the fourth estate (to the contrary, there seems to be a process of reporting almost exclusively only the negative), it has no set enemies which can be focussed and rallies against and bears the burden of both negative connotations from the previous regime's use of the army as well as negative connotations from the current. It is a peace time force.
Even looking at the pre-76 SADF (do not forget the state of the SADF at times prior to 76 - think of the Erasmus years etc) and today's SANDF, you cannot compare. We live in totally different worlds. Not just in RSA, but around the world, ie military disciplinary standards etc of those times would land one in jail today. This is not a matter of apples and pears, but two very different entities, fauna and flora if you will.
But that however does not say there is not a lot to be fixed still in the SANDF...
Things are however not always as the media chooses to portray them... and it is improving rapidly.

[exT70]

Afternoon all, I started another thread about this, but was pointed here, so here goes. I was wondering how the SANDF compares to the older SADF, and if anyone here has served in/had experience of both? Since there seems to be a general feeling that the SADF were v effective, how does the newer force rate? I understand there was the Military Skills Development programme recently?

Cheers
BB
The MSD system is similar to the old 2 year national service system, just on a volunteer basis. One year's training, one year's deployment/work, after which members leave and are supposed to join the reserves. It still has many growing pains, structures to sort out and niggles, but should in time grow to re-invigorate the SANDF.

[Britboy]

Perhaps a voluntary national service system like MSD is not suited to the new force?
National service/conscription would have been vital during a long conflict. But as you said the SANDF is not in that conflict now, and is a smaller force.

Having to train people up and then only getting 12 months productive time out of them must put a lot of strain on the training system with no hope of retention of these pers, and they'd be getting out of the regulars just as they start to get some experience and be most useful. I know there are regulars and reservists too, but why not have only them? Unless all reservists have to have done MSD, then you can still get reserves without MSD.

Unless the plan is to get them through the door on MSD and then persuade the best ones to stay full time or become reserve (citizen force?) officers?

Regards
BB

[exT70]

Perhaps a voluntary national service system like MSD is not suited to the new force?
National service/conscription would have been vital during a long conflict. But as you said the SANDF is not in that conflict now, and is a smaller force.

Having to train people up and then only getting 12 months productive time out of them must put a lot of strain on the training system with no hope of retention of these pers, and they'd be getting out of the regulars just as they start to get some experience and be most useful. I know there are regulars and reservists too, but why not have only them? Unless all reservists have to have done MSD, then you can still get reserves without MSD.

Unless the plan is to get them through the door on MSD and then persuade the best ones to stay full time or become reserve (citizen force?) officers?

Regards
BB

MSD's are theoretically essential in supplying both the regulars and reserves with personell. The regulars have/had a huge problem with the ageing of its rifleman and jnr leaders, and a lot of the reserve units was not able to train its own jnr pers. The MSD's accordingly are to supply line infantryman/troopers etc for the regular units, which with the age and health of the regular force soldiers, it could not accomplish. When the MSD's leave, they are supposed to join/feed the reserve units where their training is to continue. Some are sellected for jnr leadergroup training and leave the system as 2Lt's and Cpl's.
You are correct in that the idea is also that the best ones are supposed to feed the regulars.

[Britboy]

Ah, I see the idea better now.

Just thought it was a shame to train them up and lose them after 12 months productive time, but to be honest, whats the alternative? Make them sign up for 4yrs as a regular? If that would work, then there wouldnt be the problems you mention in getting new regulars.

Better to have the attraction of only a short contract, then at least you get 12 months out of them as opposed to the no time it would be otherwise (if MSDs wouldnt join as regulars, otherwise they already would have), and get fresh blood into the regulars and a lot more reserve troops. And hopefully convince some to stay fulltime or train them up into officers or NCOs...

I imagine with this voluntary national service, SA aims to have a much larger reserve force that can be mobilised, kind've like the reserves of Israel or Finland which include (I think) most of the able bodied population. Having it voluntary rather than conscript will hurt the numbers some, but at least they will be motivated volunteers and there will still be a large reserve/ex-national service swathe of the population to call on in times of crisis. And hopefully some new blokes supplied to the regular units every year for peacekeeping/expeditionary tasks.

[exT70]

Ah, I see the idea better now.

Just thought it was a shame to train them up and lose them after 12 months productive time, but to be honest, whats the alternative? Make them sign up for 4yrs as a regular? If that would work, then there wouldnt be the problems you mention in getting new regulars.

Better to have the attraction of only a short contract, then at least you get 12 months out of them as opposed to the no time it would be otherwise (if MSDs wouldnt join as regulars, otherwise they already would have), and get fresh blood into the regulars and a lot more reserve troops. And hopefully convince some to stay fulltime or train them up into officers or NCOs...

I imagine with this voluntary national service, SA aims to have a much larger reserve force that can be mobilised, kind've like the reserves of Israel or Finland which include (I think) most of the able bodied population. Having it voluntary rather than conscript will hurt the numbers some, but at least they will be motivated volunteers and there will still be a large reserve/ex-national service swathe of the population to call on in times of crisis. And hopefully some new blokes supplied to the regular units every year for peacekeeping/expeditionary tasks.

A typical Inf Bn would deploy with about two Coy's worth of MSD's.
And these days an attached reserve Coy as well.
Leadergroup would mostly be regular, with reserves and MSD's supplying some jnr leaders.

Serving terms are kept short to avoid the current problems where no exit mechanism exists for the serving ex-SADF and non-statutory force members. Having 40-something year old rifleman does not work. Nor having snr leadergroup from ex-non-statutory forces that are good for absolutely nothing (fortunately most have been weeded out - thanks BMAT, only took 14 years (and counting) to fix that).
The name is further supposed to say it all. "Skills Development". Initial training. Then on to the reserves to serve a full military life as a reservist. Does not realy happen as planned at present, but we'll wait with bated breath. Ex-MSD's now just dissappear when they exit the MSD system. Hopefully just a growing pain.
In the reserves we get far supperior quality soldiers, who remains in the system, if we train them ourselves. The problem is however that not all units are capable of providing quality training.

Training. Which brings me back to your posting. Only 12 months of training? If a military cannot train a quality rifleman in 12 months, it should get out of the business of soldiering.

[Britboy]

Indeed, 12 months is ages of training for that role. My point was you would only have them for 12 months 'useful time' after this period before you lost them to civvy life (MSD is 2yrs, right?), so then you have to recruit and train up a new batch. Compared to regulars in most other armies who have to sign up for 4yrs. But then I guess 1yr of an MSD in a unit is better than no time from that individual in service, as these people wouldn't have joined as a regular anyway, hence the need for the MSD in the first place. So the choice from the SANDFs point of view isn't whether to employ MSDs or new regulars, but to keep on employing the regulars they have and to choose between employing MSDs or not. From this point of view, I suppose MSD is crucial.

I had no idea that MSDs were relied upon to make up almost half of a Bn, thats quite a number! Although I suppose it depends what is happening with that Bn, i.e. one deploying overseas will get as many blokes as it needs whereas one remaining in SA is a lower priority for receiving MSDs up to full manning. By this reckoning though, only 1 coy and the HQ are regulars - the regular part of the SANDF must be in a bad way if they can only put up one coy per bn (as well as the HQ and leadership)!

But these are just thoughts out of my own head due to what you have told me about MSD and the state of the SANDF, so I might be wrong... But that is the way I see it (i.e. its easier to train new riflemen every year than it is to attract new quality regulars)?

I can't believe there is no way out of the SANDF for ex-SADF and ex-other forces members? You mean they literally cannot leave? Or that they would have trouble slotting into civilian life for whatever reasons, if they did leave? And that is the reason there are 40yr old riflemen? I can't believe someone would be content to stay in the same appointment for 22-ish years with no thought of advancement and no new regulars coming in to replace them as riflemen...

Another thing you mentioned is that ex SADF and ex members of other groups work side by side. I can see how that might work now, but when the SADF had just become the SANDF, how could that be workable? There must have been a lot of former rebels from other forces pretty much dumped into what was the SADF in all but name at that point, and a LOT of recently-ex-SADF members with a lot of greivances against these new guys. Did the SANDF integrate new members directly into units, or go down the route of separate units for a cooling-off period before integrating them? There must have been a lot of tension and violence I'd have thought...

And one more thing, thanks for answering my (probably dumb) questions, so's I can learn more about South Africa's military - cheers!

Regards
BB

[exT70]

Indeed, 12 months is ages of training for that role. My point was you would only have them for 12 months 'useful time' after this period before you lost them to civvy life (MSD is 2yrs, right?), so then you have to recruit and train up a new batch. Compared to regulars in most other armies who have to sign up for 4yrs. But then I guess 1yr of an MSD in a unit is better than no time from that individual in service, as these people wouldn't have joined as a regular anyway, hence the need for the MSD in the first place. So the choice from the SANDFs point of view isn't whether to employ MSDs or new regulars, but to keep on employing the regulars they have and to choose between employing MSDs or not. From this point of view, I suppose MSD is crucial.

I had no idea that MSDs were relied upon to make up almost half of a Bn, thats quite a number! Although I suppose it depends what is happening with that Bn, i.e. one deploying overseas will get as many blokes as it needs whereas one remaining in SA is a lower priority for receiving MSDs up to full manning. By this reckoning though, only 1 coy and the HQ are regulars - the regular part of the SANDF must be in a bad way if they can only put up one coy per bn (as well as the HQ and leadership)!

But these are just thoughts out of my own head due to what you have told me about MSD and the state of the SANDF, so I might be wrong... But that is the way I see it (i.e. its easier to train new riflemen every year than it is to attract new quality regulars)?

I can't believe there is no way out of the SANDF for ex-SADF and ex-other forces members? You mean they literally cannot leave? Or that they would have trouble slotting into civilian life for whatever reasons, if they did leave? And that is the reason there are 40yr old riflemen? I can't believe someone would be content to stay in the same appointment for 22-ish years with no thought of advancement and no new regulars coming in to replace them as riflemen...

Another thing you mentioned is that ex SADF and ex members of other groups work side by side. I can see how that might work now, but when the SADF had just become the SANDF, how could that be workable? There must have been a lot of former rebels from other forces pretty much dumped into what was the SADF in all but name at that point, and a LOT of recently-ex-SADF members with a lot of greivances against these new guys. Did the SANDF integrate new members directly into units, or go down the route of separate units for a cooling-off period before integrating them? There must have been a lot of tension and violence I'd have thought...

And one more thing, thanks for answering my (probably dumb) questions, so's I can learn more about South Africa's military - cheers!

Regards
BB

Nobody is forcing members to stay. The problem is getting rid of them. We live in a county with somewhere between 25% and 50% unemployment and people are quite content to draw a monthly salary, get all the benefits and be a rifleman for their whole lives. Its better than no house, no food, no job etc. And it is not a matter of just retrenching them either, both labour law wise, and certain political debts that must be paid by some who fought in the struggle.

State of the SANDF is not as bad as it sounds. Remember members only deploy on Peacekeeping if they volunteer. I have friends that between courses, deployments and training have spent about 30days at home during the last 4 years. After a while it is enough. No matter how dedicated a soldier you may be. Now imagine what its like for the ambitionless 40 year old rifleman.
So a unit might deploy with only 50% regular staffing, while back a base the barracks are still full.

Integration between the SADF, various other statutory forces as well as non-statutory forces actually went well all considered.
Not as bad as one could imagine, but that is probably the case or the whole of South Africa. But growing pains there were...

Last point. Reason for only two years is not members unwilling to volunteer if longer. Remember unemployment. The MSD system is way oversubscribed.

[john_549]

Having read the entire thread, I must say it is heartening to hear from people within the SANDF, that things aren't as bad as the media would like us to believe sometimes.

With regards to the discussion on the Olifant Mk.2 upgrade. With some media reports putting the number of tanks to be upgraded as low as 26, it seems to me that the skills of our tank crews must have eroded to a small competency base only(as our fighter aircraft capability has).

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/olifant_mk2.htm

Given the low level of funding preventing the SANDF from exercising coventional tank warfare on a regular basis(more frequently than once a year), I wonder just how low our tank capability has sunk? (Apparently 1SA Tank Regiment has recently been deployed in their secondary infantry role due to lack of funds)

Can anyone comment on this?

[exT70]

Having read the entire thread, I must say it is heartening to hear from people within the SANDF, that things aren't as bad as the media would like us to believe sometimes.

With regards to the discussion on the Olifant Mk.2 upgrade. With some media reports putting the number of tanks to be upgraded as low as 26, it seems to me that the skills of our tank crews must have eroded to a small competency base only(as our fighter aircraft capability has).

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/olifant_mk2.htm

Given the low level of funding preventing the SANDF from exercising coventional tank warfare on a regular basis(more frequently than once a year), I wonder just how low our tank capability has sunk? (Apparently 1SA Tank Regiment has recently been deployed in their secondary infantry role due to lack of funds)

Can anyone comment on this?

Well, seeing as I'm at it...
I left the SAAC (SA Armoured Corps) some years ago, so can't speak from direct of personal experience but...
One of the Armoured Coprs main problems budget wise is that they are preparing for a conventional war in an era where there is no conventional threat. Mech Infantry to a lesser extent has the the same problem. Screw "civic pacem parrabelum", the "here and now" is all that is important for the politicians. The powers that be, like seeming everywhere in the world, is only looking at the short term here and now and accordingly when you stand in line for budget allocation, who will suck at the hind teat? Inf is mainly involved with peacekeeping (with the medics and engineers doing their level best to get in on the act as well) and is accordingly doing well budget wise. Now guess why tankers have been deploying as inf? "See, we can do this as well" type of thing.

And yes, to what I've heard (only re tanks - no knowledge as the "Katte", but I'd hazzard a guess that'll be the same), armoured training has suffered. Last time I spoke to chaps who've completed gunnery phase, each gunner fired only 4 to 6 rounds in total. And low and behold, "the best gunner on course got to fire an FS!!" (told with great awe). We used to fire more on a single assault...!

Back to the media. Yes, they specialise in painting dark pictures, and the truth is something that is sparingly used. Like one of those "based on true events" TV movies.

[exT70]

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/olifant_mk2.htm

Can anyone comment on this?

I'd take the listed web site with a pinch of salt. Probably just dated, but I'm struggling to fing one correct "fact".

[john_549]

I'd take the listed web site with a pinch of salt. Probably just dated, but I'm struggling to fing one correct "fact".

Thanks for the reply. Wow four to six shots total! That is bad..

Well, I have read on several sites that a total of two contracts were let to Alvis OMC for the procurement of somewhere in the region of 26 to 30 Olifant MK.2 MBT's.

Plus there was an uproar in Parliament some time ago when the Minister of Defence, in reply to a question, stated that the SA Army had something like 30 servicable Battle Tanks and 18 servicable Armoured Cars.

I know Wikipedia is not a reliable source, however its statements on 1 SA Tank Regiment is broadly in line with what was said here on this thread and in other online sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_South_African_Tank_Regiment

From all this I assume we can with reasonable certainty say that the armoured fist of the SANDF is potentially quite formidable, albeit very small.

I think from statements by several other members on here(people with connections), we can also say that the Olifant Mk.2 is indeed a very capable machine and more than a match for most African armoured forces.(Although Algeria and Egypt has Abrahams and T92[?] respectively)

If we compare our tank force to that of Australia for instance(59 Abrahams), there isn't that much difference in size. Training is another matter altogether of course.

If only we can get our training up to scratch again. Hopefully that will come with the procurement of our next MBT sometime after 2010, just as there was renewed focus on the training of our sailors and airmen with the ships and planes from the strategic arms deal. Funding in abundance we can never expect though....

[exT70]

Thanks for the reply. Wow four to six shots total! That is bad..

Well, I have read on several sites that a total of two contracts were let to Alvis OMC for the procurement of somewhere in the region of 26 to 30 Olifant MK.2 MBT's.

Plus there was an uproar in Parliament some time ago when the Minister of Defence, in reply to a question, stated that the SA Army had something like 30 servicable Battle Tanks and 18 servicable Armoured Cars.

I know Wikipedia is not a reliable source, however its statements on 1 SA Tank Regiment is broadly in line with what was said here on this thread and in other online sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_South_African_Tank_Regiment

From all this I assume we can with reasonable certainty say that the armoured fist of the SANDF is potentially quite formidable, albeit very small.

I think from statements by several other members on here(people with connections), we can also say that the Olifant Mk.2 is indeed a very capable machine and more than a match for most African armoured forces.(Although Algeria and Egypt has Abrahams and T92[?] respectively)

If we compare our tank force to that of Australia for instance(59 Abrahams), there isn't that much difference in size. Training is another matter altogether of course.

If only we can get our training up to scratch again. Hopefully that will come with the procurement of our next MBT sometime after 2010, just as there was renewed focus on the training of our sailors and airmen with the ships and planes from the strategic arms deal. Funding in abundance we can never expect though....

Just some more on the above.

Veh readiness state. A while ago it was even lower. Something like 4 tanks and 12 Rooikatte. Taillight broken, unserviceable. That type of thing. Remember the SAAC is looking for new vehicles and in urgent need of budget, so games are always being played.
1SATR is still using Mk1A's. Mk2's only being phased in.
There is a lot of confusion around the Mk1B, Mk2 and "The Mk2". Mk1B were despite many reports to the contrary never line produced (hence 1SATR stil using Mk1A's). A "Mk2" was then shown with a 120 gun, totally new turret and many other changes. This was never produced. The current Mk2 is more a mix between the what would have been the Mk1B and the previous Mk2 that never was. Confused yet? Latest Mk2 still uses same basid turret and hull (some now probably 50years old), just upgraded with new suspension, new engine, composite armour fitted over the old Centurion base and so on. Supposed to have new cmdrs independent sight (I have yet to see this specific set-up on production veh) and thermal capability to give it an all weather hunter/killer ability. It still fits the SA version of the L7 gun (which to my mind is the L7 gun) and is hopefully much better than the Mk1A, but comparible to a modern tank it is not (my opinion, based on, well, my opinion). Statements like that made at AAD'06 by the Maj overseeing the display that the new composite armour can withstand any modern 120, is just bull-s... Same as with the Mk1A, it will, in the real world, have to depend on superior training and crew to compete. Now whether that will be possible on current budgets, is a question I cannot answer.

Getting new tanks anywhere close to 2010 might just be crazy enough for the SANDF to do. Spend many many millions upgrading to the Mk2's, then buy new ones? Don't see it happening. Not while Hoefyster has reportedly been moved back by some years. Not while there is no conventional threat. Not while the defence budget is as low as it currently is. Not while both the Navy and Air Force can't staff their new toys.

[wilhelm]

Does anyone have any info or backround on the South African 120mm smoothbore tank gun?

[john_549]

Just some more on the above.

Veh readiness state. A while ago it was even lower. Something like 4 tanks and 12 Rooikatte. Taillight broken, unserviceable. That type of thing. Remember the SAAC is looking for new vehicles and in urgent need of budget, so games are always being played.
1SATR is still using Mk1A's. Mk2's only being phased in.
There is a lot of confusion around the Mk1B, Mk2 and "The Mk2". Mk1B were despite many reports to the contrary never line produced (hence 1SATR stil using Mk1A's). A "Mk2" was then shown with a 120 gun, totally new turret and many other changes. This was never produced. The current Mk2 is more a mix between the what would have been the Mk1B and the previous Mk2 that never was. Confused yet? Latest Mk2 still uses same basid turret and hull (some now probably 50years old), just upgraded with new suspension, new engine, composite armour fitted over the old Centurion base and so on. Supposed to have new cmdrs independent sight (I have yet to see this specific set-up on production veh) and thermal capability to give it an all weather hunter/killer ability. It still fits the SA version of the L7 gun (which to my mind is the L7 gun) and is hopefully much better than the Mk1A, but comparible to a modern tank it is not (my opinion, based on, well, my opinion). Statements like that made at AAD'06 by the Maj overseeing the display that the new composite armour can withstand any modern 120, is just bull-s... Same as with the Mk1A, it will, in the real world, have to depend on superior training and crew to compete. Now whether that will be possible on current budgets, is a question I cannot answer.

Getting new tanks anywhere close to 2010 might just be crazy enough for the SANDF to do. Spend many many millions upgrading to the Mk2's, then buy new ones? Don't see it happening. Not while Hoefyster has reportedly been moved back by some years. Not while there is no conventional threat. Not while the defence budget is as low as it currently is. Not while both the Navy and Air Force can't staff their new toys.

So the tank that was displayed at AAD 2006. Is that what the production MK.2 looks like? It does look a bit different from the regular MK.1A..

51788
( excuse the poor quality of the pic )

The costs quoted for the production MK.2 upgrade is somewhere in the region of R400 million(today's conversion rates). Not that much compared to the R7 billion Hoefyster project and to what it would cost to buy new MBT's. I think spending that amount to keep the Olifants going is acceptable.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/bae-wins-upgrade-contract-for-south-african-tanks-01199/

So the Olifant is capable of so called 'fire on the move' manuevers?

A second hand Leopard II purchase could be on the cards maybe? (Germany is downsizing its tank force from 2500 to +-400. Many second hand hulls are becoming available albeit not all of them are to the newest 2A6 standard.)

Wether or not adequate training is possible on our current budget.. I think not. Our track record over the past decade or so speaks volumes in that regard. More money will be needed.

I wonder how this so called Vision 2020 will affect army training in reality? I know all the talk is there and the rejuvinating of the reserves has started. Plus when the mechanized division is created(I wonder what number plate this formation will take? Will it be the old 7 SA Division reborn?), an adequate training budget will hopefully be provided.

[exT70]

Does anyone have any info or backround on the South African 120mm smoothbore tank gun?

Only whats on the web.
But I'll be prepared to bet you a case of beer it'll be very "german" in nature.

[exT70]

So the tank that was displayed at AAD 2006. Is that what the production MK.2 looks like? It does look a bit different from the regular MK.1A..
Just a "shell" covering the Centurion base
51788
( excuse the poor quality of the pic )

The costs quoted for the production MK.2 upgrade is somewhere in the region of R400 million(today's conversion rates). Not that much compared to the R7 billion Hoefyster project and to what it would cost to buy new MBT's. I think spending that amount to keep the Olifants going is acceptable.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/bae-wins-upgrade-contract-for-south-african-tanks-01199/

So the Olifant is capable of so called 'fire on the move' manuevers?
Have been so for a long time.

A second hand Leopard II purchase could be on the cards maybe? (Germany is downsizing its tank force from 2500 to +-400. Many second hand hulls are becoming available albeit not all of them are to the newest 2A6 standard.)
Leo 2's available will be of 2A4 stable, so will cost an arm and a leg to upgrade.
Leo is also known for the high cost of its parts and upgrades.
We cannot train and maintain the veh we have now, how are we even going to try and do that with a newer more complex system. I have the same problem with Hoefyster. We can't train, operate and maintain the existing Ratel fleet (which is basic and simple to operate), how do we expect to operate the Patria's?
Wether or not adequate training is possible on our current budget.. I think not. Our track record over the past decade or so speaks volumes in that regard. More money will be needed.

I wonder how this so called Vision 2020 will affect army training in reality? I know all the talk is there and the rejuvinating of the reserves has started. Plus when the mechanized division is created(I wonder what number plate this formation will take? Will it be the old 7 SA Division reborn?), an adequate training budget will hopefully be provided.
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ee

[john_549]

To Ext70:

Point taken.

[playtym]

Just a heads up to those Saffies that might be interested - there's a new TV series covering the border war starting on Kyknet on Sunday, the 6th of July, at 20h30.

Here's a brief outline of what the series will cover.

Apologies to the non-Afrikaans speaking members, but this is an Afrikaans series, so the outline is in Afrikaans.


GRENSOORLOG

Episode 1: KOP AAN KOP

Ons spoor die eerste Swapokader op wat ooit die grens met `n wapen oorgesteek het. `n Verhaal ontvou rondom die eerste botsing tussen Suid-Afrikaanse magte en insypelaars in Noord-Namibië in 1966. Vandié wat veertig jaar gelede aan beide kante geveg het, vertel. Ons skets die agtergrond: Harold Wilson hou sy "Winds of Change"- toespraak. Afrika raak onafhanklik - behalwe die suide. Swapo word uit `n trekarbeid-beweging gebore.

Episode 2: TWEE WÊRELDE

Terwyl wit Suid-Afrika apartheid teen die agtergrond van die Koue Oorlog steun en agtienjariges diensplig sonder vrae aanvaar, dra Radio Freedom die boodskap van die vryheidstryd na jongmense in Namibië. Ook hulle neem die wapen op, en gaan van die platteland van Ovambo na sneeubedekte Moskou vir opleiding. `n Guerilla-oorlog begin. Ons skets die twee wêrelde waaruit soldate in teenoorstaande magte in die Grensoorlog kom.

Episode 3: SPESIALE MAGTE, SPESIALE TAKE

`n Onkonvensionele oorlog vereis `n onkonvensionele reaksie. Teenoor die guerilla-aanslag, stig die SAW `n eiesoortige teenvoeter. Ons skets `n portret van die elite soldate wat bekend geword het as die "recces". Die stigter van hierdie eenhede, Jan Breytenbach, en tien ander wat nooit oor hulle werk diep in vyandelike gebied kon praat nie, vertel.

Episode 4: DIE ROOI GEVAAR

Swapo en die MPLA is ondersteun deur Moskou. Ons stel Russiese soldate wat in Angola geveg het, aan die woord, en kyk terselfdertyd na die oortuiging wat in die sewentigs en tagtigs in Suid-Afrika gegeld het dat kommunisme ons aan alle kante bedreig. Fotoboekies het Russe as skurke gehad. Die kerk het anti-kommunistiese literatuur gepubliseer. "Rooi Gevaar" was `n huishoudelike term. Aan die ander kant vertel `n familie in Moskou hoe hulle oupa hier kom veg het in die Boere-oorlog.

Episode 5: MAGSPEL IN ANGOLA

Hoe beland `n man van die Kaapse vlakte in die Kubaanse weermag in Angola? November 1975. Angola word onafhanklik. Burgeroorlog breek uit. Amerika, die Sowjet-Unie, Kuba en Suid-Afrika raak betrokke - veral vir lg twee die begin van `n uitgerekte stryd. Ons kry perspektiewe van genls. Jannie Geldenhuys en Constand Viljoen, Amerikaanse onderhandelaar Chester Crocker, vorige Russiese president Michael Gorbachev, oud-min. Pik Botha en Swapo se Charles
Namoloh. `n Suid-Afrikaans-geleide taakmag beweeg 3 000 km deur suid-Angola in 33 dae. Ons sien die bloedige gevegte by die dorpie Ebo deur die oë van soldate en bevelvoerders wat daar was.

Episode 6: BRUG 14

`n Onskuldige term soos "skoonmaak" spook vandag nog by sekere soldate. In hierdie episode bou ingenieurs `n brug onder hewige vuur, en honderde sterf in die Afrikason.

Episode 7: `N GEWAAGDE REDDINGSPOGING

Die guerillabeweging FNLA kry bloedneus, en 26 Suid-Afrikaansesoldate raak gestrand by Ambrizete, baie ver van Namibië se grens en veiligheid. Die vloot tree toe tot die bosoorlog en gaan pik hulle op duisende kilometer noord van Kaapstad.

Episode 8: '76: DIE BEGIN VAN DIE EINDE

`n Onverwagte onttrekking uit Angola, en die begin van weerstand aan die tuisfront. Die CIA verloor die stryd in die Amerikaanse Kongres en die geldkrane word toegedraai. In Suid-Afrika weier iemand vir die eerste keer om diensplig te doen.
Episode 9: 32 BATALJON

Kontroversieel, gerespekteer, bewonder, gehaat . onder `n dekmantel van geheimhouding bly die verhaal van 32 Bataljon met sy buffelteken een van die uniekste in die geskiedenis van die oorlog.

Episode 10: DIE GOUE UUR

`n Lewendige bom word uit `n man se borskas gesny . die dokter vertel. In `n oorlog is kontak met die vyand onafwendbaar. Dit beteken gewondes. In 1979 word die SA Geneeskundige Dienste die vierde been van die weermag.

Episode 11: CASSINGA

Een van die mees omstrede aanvalle in die 23 jaar van die Grensoorlog. Ons hoor die verhaal van alle kante, uit die mond van mense wat daar was.

Episode 12: ONS SAL LEWE, ONS SAL STERWE

`n Moeder verloor `n seun. Een van soveel moeders, een van soveel seuns. Hy was `n parabat, wat die gesogte valskermvlerkies met diepe trots verower het. Ons hoor die verhaal by sy ma, en by die soldaat in wie se arms hy gesterf het.

Episode 13: `N SPOOR IN DIE SAND

Die veldvernuf van Swapokaders en Boesmansoldate word teenoor mekaar gestel. In die aanhoudende soeke na nuwe antwoorde op die uitdagings wat die oorlog in die bos aan die soldate stel, word honde ingespan teen landmyne en gesofistikeerde militêre voertuie ontwikkel. Langs die wetenskaplikes staan `n ander vermoë: die mense wat die veld lees soos `n boek.

Episode 14: HAKKEJAG

`n Oud-Sowjet amptenaar skets die invloei van Russiese instrukteurs en wapentuig vir Swapo en Fapla, wat saam met Kubaanse ondersteuning hulle vermoëns verhoog. 32 Bataljon se Portugees-sprekende Angolese lede vertel van die hardste geveg in die eenheid se geskiedenis: Savate. En met die bewindsaanvaarding van pres. Ronald Reagan in die VSA, kom "linkage" - onderhandelinge oor die onttrekking van die Kubane - op die tafel.

Episode 15: SWAAR METAAL (PROTEA 1)

Aan weerskante van die skeidslyn word swaarder en beter wapens ingevoer en ontwikkel. Suid-Afrika beplan die grootste konvensionele aanslag ooit in die grensoorlog teen die gekombineerde magte van Fapla, die Kubane en Swapo.

Episode 16: YSTERVUISTE (PROTEA 2)

Soldate wat daar was, vertel van die presiese beplanning, die dapperheid van individue en die chaos wat oorlog is. Vroue by die huis gee `n aanduiding van hoe groot die kloof tussen die huis en die front geword het.

Episode 17: REBELLE, WEIERAARS EN VERRAAIERS

Een wit seun kies umKhonto we Sizwe bo diensplig, word opgelei in Oos-Duitsland en kry `n bevel om `n bom te plant. `n Ander vertel met bitterheid en selfverwyt hoe sy grensdiens hom voor onmoontlike keuses gestel het.

Episode 18: O, EK VERLANG NA JOU

Sonja Herholdt, André Swartz, Karin Hougaard, Ollie Viljoen en Anneline Kriel is onder die kunstenaars en bekendes wat die grens besoek het om die manne te vermaak. Hulle vertel.

Episode 19: BROER TEEN BROER

In Ovamboland kom broer teen broer te staan: sommige kies om in die SAW te dien, ander veg vir Swapo. Onder wit Suidwesters woed `n politieke stryd, onder meer oor die oopstel van geriewe vir alle rasse. Suid-Afrika hou sy "vyfde provinsie" aan `n kort leisel vas.

Episode 20: KOEVOET

Oud-Koevoetlede praat reguit oor betaling per kop vir elke "terroris" wat hulle geskiet het, oor liggame oor die wiel van `n Casspir vasgemaak, en oor hulle ysingwekkende effektiwiteit.

Episode 21: ÊRENS AAN DIE GRENS

In die vroeë tagtigs is gemiddeld 30 000 troepe "êrens aan die grens", in `n reeks kampe diep in die bos, baie ver van die huis af. Op Fort Doppies maak hulle `n leeu mak, Veenhala het Gabi die sebra, en by Calueque is `n mak krokodil bekend as die plat hond.

Episode 22: OPERASIE KERSLIG

Kom saam op `n spesmagte operasie: 16 hoogs opgeleide operateurs gaan in die bek van die vyand in om die olieraffinadery in Luanda-hawe op te blaas. Hulle verloor een van hulle makkers in `n ontploffing, maar die ander kom terug en vertel self die verhaal.

Episode 23: WAPENBROERS

Wat het gebeur toe Wynand du Toit by Cabinda gevang is? Hoekom het Unita altyd sabotasie-aksies vir hulle toegeëien, as dit Suid- Afrikaners was wat dit uitgevoer het? Hoekom het die Kubane eintlik Angola toe gekom, en wie het die koste betaal? Ons ontrafel die vrae rondom wie aan wie se kant was, en waarom.

Episode 24 : TWEE FRONTE

1985. Die townships brand. 35 000 troepe word ingestuur om die polisie te ondersteun. Grootskaalse weerstand teen diensplig ontstaan. Intussen loods Fapla `n aanslag in suidoos-Angola, wat deur die SA Lugmag afgeslaan word. Die druk bou op, binnelands en buitelands.

Episode 25: CUITO CUANAVALE

Wat presies het in 1987 en '88 in die gevegte rondom die dorpie Cuito gebeur? Was daar `n oorwinnaar? Ons volg die gevegte week na week en maand na maand - oorkoepelend, maar ook uit die intens persoonlike oogpunt van twee soldate in die hitte van die stryd. Bloedige gevegte woed. Ingewikkelde onderhandelinge word gevoer. Wynand du Toit kom huis toe.

Episode 26: VUISVOOS

Kuba slaan `n laaste hou met `n aanval by Calueque in suidwes- Angola. Intense onderhandelinge lei na `n vredesooreenkoms. Swapo maak `n amper fatale fout en begin `n 9-dae oorlog . maar Namibië word gebore.

[Deftoner]

sounds interesting... wish I had DSTV now :-(

[cold_warrior]

I wonder if there's a way to get this in the US - it looks pretty interesting.

I've always wondered why the History Channel insists on showing crap like "Hitler's Secret UFO Bigfoot" and the like instead of anything on the Border War or any of the other "small wars" of the latter half of the 20th Century.

[TGVorster]

I was given an advance screening by the producer Linda de Jager a few months ago of the Cuito and Ops Daisy episodes. Well balanced and with footage that will blow you guys away.

She has told me that once the show has finished airing she will look into having it released on DVD. She is also in discussions with Discovery about having the show translated and aired on either discovery or history.

I will keep you guys in the loop.

[Piepalook]

I was given an advance screening by the producer Linda de Jager a few months ago of the Cuito and Ops Daisy episodes. Well balanced and with footage that will blow you guys away.

She has told me that once the show has finished airing she will look into having it released on DVD. She is also in discussions with Discovery about having the show translated and aired on either discovery or history.

I will keep you guys in the loop.

How is the book coming along?

[cold_warrior]

That's fantastic news. I hope everything goes well.

[wilhelm]

Re-reading the history of 32 Battalion by their former RSM Piet Nortje, and I came across a reference to Huhnleiter Shelter's (spelling?)and Warren Huts.

Does anyone have any further info on these, or any pics?

[SilverBoy]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3376290&posted=1#post3376290

[YANKEEBOBB]

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/7610/1a334du8.jpg

[Clint_Durban]

New SADF video on Youtube!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mwJhtLUlKc4

[Piepalook]

New SADF video on Youtube!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mwJhtLUlKc4

Nice video!
Thank you!

On this video you can see the webbing the equestrian units were issued with.

[Piepalook]

Who sings brothers in arms?

I am really getting old or tired now.

[Ironsight06]

Who sings brothers in arms?

I am really getting old or tired now.
Dire Straits

Thanks for the video Clint. Excellent as usual!

[AtK]

SADF group photo of vehicles

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/fishclint/SADF/SADF_groupvehicles2.jpg
This photo was taken at Rooikop Military Base (Walvisbay) and is a display of vehicles from 62 Mech Inf Bn Group (4 SAI Bn) when the unit was deployed there during 1988.

[GETSOME]

This photo was taken at Rooikop Military Base (Walvisbay) and is a display of vehicles from 62 Mech Inf Bn Group (4 SAI Bn) when the unit was deployed there during 1988.
That where i first went to when i got called up,memoriesp-)
The border with Nambia was just behind the hill,marked out by a line of oil drums.

[GETSOME]

Why was 4 SAI there,Walvis Bay was 2 SAI Batalion Group?
Where they just passing throught?

[AtK]

They were withdrawn from Owambo to Walvisbay during the withdrawal from SWA and acted as reserve force in the event, as happened during April '89, of an increase of activities from across the border. If memory serves they spent about 5 or 6 months at Rooikop. Had my years wrong - they were stationed during 1989 - apologies.

[ROOIKAT 76MM]

BEER MOMSTER

I was wondering if you can tell me when that photo of the rooikats driving through the township was taken and where

another thing it looks like that pics is backwards i don't remember them swapping the car around crew camander was on the left and the loader on the right looks like they transposed the picture whats on the right should be on the left on the whole car

[ROOIKAT 76MM]

sp2s

i have hope you enjoy the pics of the rooikat in action

[ROOIKAT 76MM]

some more of the rooikat

[AtK]

some more of the rooikat
Stable parade at ABS - 8SAI on exercise

[ROOIKAT 76MM]

steel parade oooohhhhh how i hated it days on days cleaning the inside of the Rooikat making sure everything was white again and up packing everything man that is what nightmares are made of

[Britboy]

Hmmm I wonder if some countries would be better off adopting the Rooikat instead of developing their own 'mediumweight armour' like Stryker MGS or its FCS replacement.

Lets see, tyres, big gun, armoured, yep.

I don't know how airportable Rooikat is, but it definitely looks like it'd fit the bill. And combat tested too.

[cold_warrior]

I've wondered the same thing about the US Army and the G6 - why spend billions of dollars on the Crusader or the NLOSC when there's already a battle proven solution available?

Of course politics would get in the way. Congress would be against it because it's not "Made in 'Merica," and I'll bet that the ANC would oppose selling it because of the US involvement in Iraq. :roll:

[ROOIKAT 76MM]

yeah seeing the americans have fought against our weapons over there G5 and the likes

Not sure why one thing to remember that most of South Africa's armour and weapons are all battle tested and proved themselves more than up of the job at hand Good examples are the Rattel, eland, casper and i could carry on but i guess you get the point. And a the top of the food chain is the Rooikat.

i would agree the other countries should look at adopting the KAT seeing that most of the combat zones are much the same enviroment that our weapond were developed in. just makes sense here you have a battle ready AFV that can with stand the terran you are working in would be cheaper to buy instead of develop

[AtK]

ROOITKAT 76MM. Don't you think the Rooikat is a bit long in the tooth. They have been around since 1988 (?). Technolgy has changed since then. A serious upgrade could possibly make a difference, but the armour protection is on the limit, driveline is suspect, etc, etc.

[ROOIKAT 76MM]

ATK

There have been improvements to the rooikat in the past to the engine suspention gun control system etc. etc. not sure as of late of any other improvements to the KAT. But what i have seen on other AFV's is the shape of the rooikat been used on others or the other way around not sure on that.

I feel the power plant could be bigger than the existing v10 though

[Ironsight06]

I've wondered the same thing about the US Army and the G6 - why spend billions of dollars on the Crusader or the NLOSC when there's already a battle proven solution available?

Of course politics would get in the way. Congress would be against it because it's not "Made in 'Merica," and I'll bet that the ANC would oppose selling it because of the US involvement in Iraq. :roll:
Stryker Mxxxx SPH will feature Denel's G-7 howitzer.

[Snake Doctor]

Hi guys, I know this is a bit off topic but im hoping there are more SA guys on this thread than the others.. I found this pic of an R5 (Or is it a Galil) on the web and am really interested in the rail system. Anyone know anything about it? I have done the usual google searches and searched mp.net for Galil accessories etc but havent found much. I think this particular weapon is from the US, but dont know any more than that. It also appears to be a "civvie" weapon as it doesnt seem to have full auto option on the fire selector. I am dead keen to get my hands on that top rail..It would send the rest of the guys in my Regiment round the bend.. Anyone have any further info on it?
Thanks
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=418&pictureid=4349

[playtym]

Yup, definitely an LM5, rather than an R5. Looks like the piston guide tube's been silver soldered onto the gas block at the front to provide a stable platform for the rail. A friend of mine who's a gunsmith has done something similar with his LM6. I'll send you some pics later tonight if you want to have a look.

Have you got a link to the original site?

[ROOIKAT 76MM]

yip Playtym is right

see the pic the pistol grip is straight on the R5

[playtym]

yip Playtym is right

see the pic the pistol grip is straight on the R5

So is the one in the pic Snake Doctor posted, it's just got a slip on grip cover over it. Only "S" and "R" are marked on the selector - an R5 would also have the "A" marked.

[ROOIKAT 76MM]

sorry i did not see that looked like the grip was made like that

[Snake Doctor]

Yup, definitely an LM5, rather than an R5. Looks like the piston guide tube's been silver soldered onto the gas block at the front to provide a stable platform for the rail. A friend of mine who's a gunsmith has done something similar with his LM6. I'll send you some pics later tonight if you want to have a look.

Have you got a link to the original site?

Thanks Playtym, Id like to see those pics sometime. I dont remember where I found that pic unfortunately. I think it was on a US Galil owners type site. They have done a nice job though. There are some really odd rail systems available for Galil weapons but they all look a bit finicky. This is the best one I have seen - plain and simple. The eotech sights work well, but I have only ever seen 1 here in SA, on an SAPS MP5, it was a private purchase.. Im a bit puzzled about how practical soldering the piston guide tube would be.I tried to zoom up the pic to have a closer look but couldnt see much. And thinking about it more, everytime you strip the weapon you would have to remove the rail, Im not sure if its such a good idea now. Neither my Issue R4 nor my mates LM have the "ring"behind the rear sight. Not quite sure on what that is..

[playtym]

Thanks Playtym, Id like to see those pics sometime. I dont remember where I found that pic unfortunately. I think it was on a US Galil owners type site. They have done a nice job though. There are some really odd rail systems available for Galil weapons but they all look a bit finicky. This is the best one I have seen - plain and simple. The eotech sights work well, but I have only ever seen 1 here in SA, on an SAPS MP5, it was a private purchase.. Im a bit puzzled about how practical soldering the piston guide tube would be.I tried to zoom up the pic to have a closer look but couldnt see much. And thinking about it more, everytime you strip the weapon you would have to remove the rail, Im not sure if its such a good idea now. Neither my Issue R4 nor my mates LM have the "ring"behind the rear sight. Not quite sure on what that is..

I'm just guessing that the guide tube has been soldered onto the gas block - I'm basing this on the odd colouration that you can see there - I'm assuming it's damaged the finish when they did it.
The rail is probably attached to the gas tube by a saddle - so to remove it you just undo some grub screws and it comes off with the dust cover. Again, I'm just guessing.

I don't have a clue regarding the ring behind the rear sight - it's definitely not standard. I thought an attachment point for a sling, but there's already one on the back of the receiver. The dust covers not the most secure place to attach your sling either, so I'm guessing it's for something else, but don't know what.

[AtK]

TGVorster: Do know if anyone is planning to write or has written a book on the history of 4 SA Inf Bn/62 Mech Gn grp

[HammockWarrior]

Finland has just started to investigate Patria for bribery allegations on a Slovenian and a Egyptian arms deal. Anyone want bet money on when the SA Army deal gets a closer look?
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a520288c5-d5b3-4f4f-bc10-ec082ff629c6

[AtK]

Finland has just started to investigate Patria for bribery allegations on a Slovenian and a Egyptian arms deal. Anyone want bet money on when the SA Army deal gets a closer look?
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a520288c5-d5b3-4f4f-bc10-ec082ff629c6

Was it the same deal or what?

[AtK]

Some scanned photos of SANDF equipment during night shooting exercises at the training area outside Bloemfontein.

[Piepalook]

Apparently the Airforce only has 20 fighterpilots.
Since 2005 the Airforce has lost 91 pilots and 822 technicians.

Although the Airforce denies that these pilots were victims of Affirmative action, the Freedom front plus (political party) is adament that AA is to blame.

(South Africa is the only country in the world where a majority enforces Affirmative Action on a minority)

Who will fly those nice new Grippen aircraft?
Are they to be mothballed?

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Politics/0,,2-7-12_2367095,00.html

[john_549]

I doubt 20 pilots are enough to keep both the Hawk and Gripen squadrons going.

Standing up a fighter squadron with a fourth generation fighter like Gripen, is no easy task even with experienced pilots.

I wonder how many of those 20 pilots are combat ready?

[Piepalook]

I doubt 20 pilots are enough to keep both the Hawk and Gripen squadrons going.

Standing up a fighter squadron with a fourth generation fighter like Gripen, is no easy task even with experienced pilots.

I wonder how many of those 20 pilots are combat ready?

Most combat pilots have left.
They drive Jumbo busses now!
At much more pay.
No way that they will come back.

A numer of them are flying for Singapore air.
Good money there!

[signatory]

The article says:

"Altogether 123 pilots were currently under training in the SAAF."

Is that one, two, three... three whole pilots ! Or actually 123? Sounds like quite a lot.

[Piepalook]

The article says:

"Altogether 123 pilots were currently under training in the SAAF."

Is that one, two, three... three whole pilots ! Or actually 123? Sounds like quite a lot.

Most fall out along the way.

Of the 123 pilots in training most will fall out.
A few will crash those new grippen fighters in training and die.
A gloomy picture indeed.

Those 123 pilots also include helicopter and transport pilots.
Not many fighter pilots there.

[Piepalook]

The article says:

"Altogether 123 pilots were currently under training in the SAAF."

Is that one, two, three... three whole pilots ! Or actually 123? Sounds like quite a lot.

I found out last night that there are only 4 fighter pilots being trained right now.
Apparently the OC (training) left as well.
The Australian Defence force is recruiting (BIG TIME!)

They make these guys offers that they cannot refuse.LOL!

[Snake Doctor]

I attended a talk given by Col Breytenbach in Durban last night. If any of you guys get a chance to attend one of his talks, he is a most interesting fellow..he has a great sense of humour too. He spoke about the formation of, and the early days of Bravo Group mostly and I must confess I could have sat there the whole night listening..Kevin Woods was also there and so was Al Venter, all 3 with books to autograph etc. They dont come as good as 'The Carpenter" anymore..

[rowky]

Hi!
I read some pages of this theme, but I don't find some info in wich I'm interested. Will be all models of IFV patria for South Africa able to "swim"?

[sa_bushwar]

For some SA Bushwar stuff, see my webpage at: www.geocities.com/sa_bushwar

[Schad]

This is very true, our unit received about 360 members from the 2006 intake of which only 8 are white(male only). What has caused the interest of white south africans to drop so drasticaly? Is it possible that their parents are influencing them based on there bad experiences during national service? or is it something else?

They had the option of joining the British army, earning Sterling and get a EU passport at the end of it - might have had something to do with it.

[AtK]

Hi!
I read some pages of this theme, but I don't find some info in wich I'm interested. Will be all models of IFV patria for South Africa able to "swim"?
I don't think so - not many waterways to to negotiate in Africa.

[AtK]

CHANGE OF RANKS AND FORM OF ADDRESS OF SENIOR WARRANT OFFICERS IN THE SANDF
The Minister of Defence has approved the following new Warrant Officer ranks, effective from 1 June 2008:

Old ApptNew RankBadge of RankAbbrForm of Addressab cd

Level 4


WO
Seniors
Warrant
Officer

http://www.dcc.mil.za/bulletins/Files/2008/Level1starranks_small.jpg (http://www.dcc.mil.za/bulletins/Files/2008/Level1starranks.jpg)


SWO


Senior WO


Level 4A


Master


Warrant


Officer


http://www.dcc.mil.za/bulletins/Files/2008/Level2starranks_small.jpg (http://www.dcc.mil.za/bulletins/Files/2008/Level2starranks.jpg)


MWO


Master WO


Level 3


WO


Chief


Warrant


Officer


http://www.dcc.mil.za/bulletins/Files/2008/Level3starranks_small.jpg (http://www.dcc.mil.za/bulletins/Files/2008/Level3starranks.jpg)


CWO


Chief WO


Level 2


WO


Senior Chief


Warrant


Officer


http://www.dcc.mil.za/bulletins/Files/2008/Level1crossranks_small.jpg (http://www.dcc.mil.za/bulletins/Files/2008/Level1crossranks.jpg)


SCWO


Senior Chief WO


Level 1


WO


Master Chief


Warrant


Officer


http://www.dcc.mil.za/bulletins/Files/2008/Level2crossranks_small.jpg (http://www.dcc.mil.za/bulletins/Files/2008/Level2crossranks.jpg)


MSWO


Master Chief WO


These ranks are awarded subsequent to the rank of Warrant Officer Class 1, with the aim of providing for an extended career path for Warrant Officers following promotion to Warrant Officer Class 1.
The ranks are furthermore substantive, and no longer relate only to an appointment in a post. Once appointed to a post, the Warrant Officer is also promoted, and can no longer revert to the rank of Warrant Officer Class 1.

Currently these ranks are only applicable to Warrant Officers in the Regimental Line as follows:

Master Warrant Officer (Level 4/4A)
Chief Warrant Officer (Level 3)
Senior Chief Warrant Officer (Service/Division Warrant Officer/ Warrant Officer in Charge of the Warrant Officer Academy)
Master Chief Warrant Officer (Warrant Officer of the SANDF)
An investigation is currently being conducted into the establishment of a Functional Specialist Warrant Officer dispensation outside the Regimental Line, providing for promotion up to the rank of Chief Warrant Officer, depending on the organisational level and the job weight of a post.
The Office of the Chief Human Resources is in the process of including the ranks in the General Regulations for the SANDF and to develop departmental policy detailing the supporting management and administration processes for the new ranks.

[AtK]

SECURITY FORCES TO CONDUCT 2010 TRAINING EXERCISES IN PORT ELIZABETH, EASTERN CAPE.
In line with its security preparations for the 2010 FIFA World Cup in South Africa, the National Joint Operational and Intelligence Structure (NATJOINTS) will conduct “Exercise Shield” around the Port Elizabeth Stadium in the Eastern Cape from 27 July to 3 August 2008.
The security forces wish to ask the community of Port Elizabeth to be patient and tolerant to the possible noise from the aircraft and vessels in and around the city’s airport and harbour, especially from 30 July to 1 August 2008.
This exercise will make all South Africans proud of their security forces and their country.
“Exercise Shield” is a joint exercise between the South African Police Service (SAPS), the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) and other agencies including Government Departments.
The exercise is aimed at honing security related skills such as securing the national airspace, the maritime and land and other strategic points to ensure a safe environment in host cities during major events.
Some of the most elite members and units within the security forces will engage in simulated scenarios and use certain aspects of emergency contingency plans to neutralize any form of air-bone, sea-borne and land-borne threat.
The SAPS units to be utilized during this exercise include the Special Task Force, the National Intervention Unit, the National and Provincial Air Wing, Borderline and Ports of Entry Components, Emergency Services such as Flying Squad and the Dog Unit, Crime Intelligence and Organised Crime Units, the Counter Assault Team as well as hostage negotiators and bomb disposal experts.
The SANDF will deploy personnel from the Air Force the Army, the Navy and the South African Medical Health Services (SAMHS) with the necessary equipment and machinery. Assistance from Disaster Management coordination structures, the Civil Aviation Authority, the Air Traffic Navigation Services of the Department of Transport and other structures will be on board to ensure inter-departmental support to the SAPS.
The Civil Aviation Authority has already issued information restricting, but not banning flights within 40 nautical miles of the Port Elizabeth Airport. With the exception of scheduled or State flights, all other aircraft wishing to enter into the stipulated airspace between 31 July and 1 August 2008 must conform to the restrictions.
This includes applying for permission at least 24 hours in advance, submitting a flight plan and being subjected to a vetting process. Any aircraft observed entering the temporarily restricted airspace without the prescribed authority will be subjected to interception, interrogation and possible prosecution.

[exT70]

Hi!
I read some pages of this theme, but I don't find some info in wich I'm interested. Will be all models of IFV patria for South Africa able to "swim"?

None will be able to swim on the first order of 264. Not really necessary. Our problem is not enough water.

[john_549]

SECURITY FORCES TO CONDUCT 2010 TRAINING EXERCISES IN PORT ELIZABETH, EASTERN CAPE.
This includes applying for permission at least 24 hours in advance, submitting a flight plan and being subjected to a vetting process. Any aircraft observed entering the temporarily restricted airspace without the prescribed authority will be subjected to interception, interrogation and possible prosecution.

Wonder how they planned on carrying out those "interceptions" since our Gripens aren't flying yet...?????

[AtK]

I am sure the flying squad will assist - somehow.

[Deftoner]

Wonder how they planned on carrying out those "interceptions" since our Gripens aren't flying yet...?????

Gripen is not the only aircraft the airforce has....

[john_549]

Gripen is not the only aircraft the airforce has....

Duh..

I'm pretty sure they didn't use the Hawks though, since the few qualified instructors were probably needed for training.

Armed helicopters can be used for slow mover interceptions, I know, but it's a bit of a joke don't you think?

Anyway.. I guess I'm just in a negative mood today.

[luqzul@telkomsa.net]

[quote=AtK;3472366]CHANGE OF RANKS AND FORM OF ADDRESS OF SENIOR WARRANT OFFICERS IN THE SANDF
The Minister of Defence has approved the following new Warrant Officer ranks, effective from 1 June 2008:

And to top it off the ranks are now substansive and not just an appointment like before. This will certainly have Budget implications.

It is really lame that the SANDF has cash to spend on rank structures while so many other issues needs a boost in the budget department. How about improving Buildings in SAI units or transport issues like the old Samils and the list goes on.

I know that warrant officers were frustrated that their career paths ran a dead end after WO1 but really guys the money could be spent better. Besides it takes forever to become a WO1. LOL

[blastmaster]

Mechem MC-90

http://img288.imageshack.us/img288/6432/mc908fe.jpg

This was a prototype / technology demonstrator light armoured car. The running gear was Unimog based and the turret was to come from surplus Eland 90s. It was unveiled in the mid 1990s and despite several proposals for different variants it did not go into production.

Varients:
MC-90 - Reconnaissance/fire support version armed with 90mm DEFA.
MC-20 - Paper proposal for an air defence version.
MC-81 - Paper proposal for a Mortar armed fire support version.

I happen to know the vehicle and saw it being demonstrated shortly after completion.

Running gear was Unimog 416.162 taken from the standard SADF Unimogs and I recall this vehicle being called the Sprinbok within Mechem at the time.

Yes, the turret was for real (no airbrushing etc) but I never saw the gun fire though.

There was not much interest from the SADF at the time and the project died a natural death eventually with no orders from anywhere.

[AtK]

So what's happening in the SANDF???????:roll:

[blastmaster]

So is the one in the pic Snake Doctor posted, it's just got a slip on grip cover over it. Only "S" and "R" are marked on the selector - an R5 would also have the "A" marked.

Hello Playtym,

I note you and quite a good number of other readers are pretty well informed about SADF and SANDF equipment and the history behind it and I may have some more info to contribute over time.

I have only joined fairly recently and have enjoyed this site no end and am gradullay working my way through this thread and thought I would set the ball rolling from my side by posting these two pics of the original Nyala and leaving you and other interested readers in this forum with the following questions: What? Where? Why? How come the name?

If this vehicle has already been dealt with in this forum, then please just ignore it and if not, I will reveal all after you guys have had a go at it.

[wilhelm]

Interesting Nyala pictures. With the seperate drivers compartment ala the Ratel, and what appears to be drop sides along the sides for rapid debussing ala the Buffel, was this Nyala trialed as a Buffel APC replacement perhaps? Probably mid to late 1980's when work along those lines was ongoing?

PS. Glad you made it to this thread. Perhaps the best thread on this topic on the internet.

[playtym]

Welcome to the forum, blastmaster.

You seem pretty well informed on the development and production of the kit that we as troopies used to use, so I look forward to your contributions. I've seen much of it from the users point of view, but never had the back story to the equipment - how it was developed - other than what I've read in books covering the subject.

[AtK]

Interesting Nyala pictures. With the seperate drivers compartment ala the Ratel, and what appears to be drop sides along the sides for rapid debussing ala the Buffel, was this Nyala trialed as a Buffel APC replacement perhaps? Probably mid to late 1980's when work along those lines was ongoing?

PS. Glad you made it to this thread. Perhaps the best thread on this topic on the internet.

This is a proto vehicle (1 of 4) developed between Buffel and CASSPIR. Mfezi ambulance resulted from it. Friend of mine was involved.

[blastmaster]

Interesting Nyala pictures. With the seperate drivers compartment ala the Ratel, and what appears to be drop sides along the sides for rapid debussing ala the Buffel, was this Nyala trialed as a Buffel APC replacement perhaps? Probably mid to late 1980's when work along those lines was ongoing?

PS. Glad you made it to this thread. Perhaps the best thread on this topic on the internet.

Wilhelm, thank you for steering me to this forum - very interesting indeed and I am grateful to you for suggesting this.

Well, as regards your comments icw my posting, I must say you made surprizingly good progress at your first attempt, but there is a big story behind this so I will leave it to you and your fellow sleuths for a day or two before I cast more light on it and put up more pics.

Let me just say this for now - it certainly was a watershed development with potentially significant consequences at the time, yet I have never seen anything in print about this momentous development yet! Must be "fog of war" again.

To reply to what you have posted - the project actually goes back to 1983 and the name was given to this vehicle in late 1984 and now I will leave the rest to you and the other sharp "sleuths" to fill in and maybe between all of you you can even put up some more pics? Who knows.......

Another clue is attached

[AtK]

Wilhelm, thank you for steering me to this forum - very interesting indeed and I am grateful to you for suggesting this.

Well, as regards your comments icw my posting, I must say you made surprizingly good progress at your first attempt, but there is a big story behind this so I will leave it to you and your fellow sleuths for a day or two before I cast more light on it and put up more pics.

Let me just say this for now - it certainly was a watershed development with potentially significant consequences at the time, yet I have never seen anything in print about this momentous development yet! Must be "fog of war" again.

To reply to what you have posted - the project actually goes back to 1983 and the name was given to this vehicle in late 1984 and now I will leave the rest to you and the other sharp "sleuths" to fill in and maybe between all of you you can even put up some more pics? Who knows.......

Another clue is attached

I can ID three vehicles: Buffel, CASSPIR, and Velskoen (2nd from left). The others I'm not sure of. Looks like a Bulldog (3rd from left).

[blastmaster]

I can ID three vehicles: Buffel, CASSPIR, and Velskoen (2nd from left). The others I'm not sure of. Looks like a Bulldog (3rd from left).

Buffel and Casspir all right - Velskoen, no.

Regarding your comments about the Mfezi being a derivative of this vehicle, consider the following for Nyala:

Engine:Midmounted, underfloor, naturally aspirated, water cooled, ADE 407 6 cylinder diesel engine developing 240bhp.
Transmission: Close coupled ZF 6- speed transmission
Transfer case: Paramount custom designed two speed transfer case mounted at extreme rear of vehicle
Axles: MAN hub reduction axles employing differential through drive from rear axle to front axle
Driver position: Center of vehicle
Cooling system: Cooling air inlet via blast protected side gills on both sides of hull feeding centrally in siamese fashion into shrouded radiator and exhausting through gills at rear of hull after passing over powerpack. Engine watercooled.

Now what were the Mfezi specs again? Beware the "fog of war".

Project Remark ring a bell with anyone?

[wilhelm]

Was it the first chassis-less APC? I always thought that was the monocoque Casspir from 1979? Let me have a little think about it..........

Off the top of my head and after a quick glance I identify the vehicles in your picture as, from left to right: Buffel, AC-200, not sure, not sure, Nyala(APC?), Casspir.

The two not sure's in the middle are very interesting, as I thought initially that perhaps they were an early rinkhals type vehicle, but I think I'll dismiss that. Are they Samil based?

[blastmaster]

Was it the first chassis-less APC? I always thought that was the monocoque Casspir from 1979? Let me have a little think about it..........

Off the top of my head and after a quick glance I identify the vehicles in your picture as, from left to right: Buffel, AC-200, not sure, not sure, Nyala(APC?), Casspir.

The two not sure's in the middle are very interesting, as I thought initially that perhaps they were an early rinkhals type vehicle, but I think I'll dismiss that. Are they Samil based?

Ah, the "thick plottens" as the saying goes.



No, Not AC 200
Not early Rinkhals type(s)
(First ever)Nyala is not an early APC
Middle vehicles - one has Mercedes Benz running gear, the other (mixed) Samil componentry

[wilhelm]

I happen to know the vehicle and saw it being demonstrated shortly after completion.

Running gear was Unimog 416.162 taken from the standard SADF Unimogs and I recall this vehicle being called the Sprinbok within Mechem at the time.


Can you confirm whether it was called the Klipspringer or Springbok?

It appears that the turret was lifted from an Eland or Ratel 90.

[wilhelm]

Ah, the "thick plottens" as the saying goes.



No, Not AC 200
Not early Rinkhals type(s)
(First ever)Nyala is not an early APC
Middle vehicles - one has Mercedes Benz running gear, the other (mixed) Samil componentry



Shoot! I was almost certain off the top of my head that was an AC-200. Oh well....

[AtK]

Buffel and Casspir all right - Velskoen, no.

Regarding your comments about the Mfezi being a derivative of this vehicle, consider the following for Nyala:

Engine:Midmounted, underfloor, naturally aspirated, water cooled, ADE 407 6 cylinder diesel engine developing 240bhp.
Transmission: Close coupled ZF 6- speed transmission
Transfer case: Paramount custom designed two speed transfer case mounted at extreme rear of vehicle
Axles: MAN hub reduction axles employing differential through drive from rear axle to front axle
Driver position: Center of vehicle
Cooling system: Cooling air inlet via blast protected side gills on both sides of hull feeding centrally in siamese fashion into shrouded radiator and exhausting through gills at rear of hull after passing over powerpack. Engine watercooled.

Now what were the Mfezi specs again? Beware the "fog of war".

Project Remark ring a bell with anyone?

There is definitely a similarity.
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:HU8jszqTuV-8MM:http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/6049/mfezi011wd.jpg (http://images.google.co.za/imgres?imgurl=http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/6049/mfezi011wd.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php%3Ft%3D64954%26page%3D31&h=1230&w=1740&sz=506&hl=en&start=4&usg=__2awwPqdgXx2CMcj1KLq23Gk73Hg=&tbnid=HU8jszqTuV-8MM:&tbnh=106&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmfezi%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG)

[AtK]

There is definitely a similarity.
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:HU8jszqTuV-8MM:http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/6049/mfezi011wd.jpg (http://images.google.co.za/imgres?imgurl=http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/6049/mfezi011wd.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php%3Ft%3D64954%26page%3D31&h=1230&w=1740&sz=506&hl=en&start=4&usg=__2awwPqdgXx2CMcj1KLq23Gk73Hg=&tbnid=HU8jszqTuV-8MM:&tbnh=106&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmfezi%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG)


The REMARK thing - http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif
REMARK 31 - closer to the truth???
Very interesting bunch of vehicles.

[luqzul@telkomsa.net]

Shoot! I was almost certain off the top of my head that was an AC-200. Oh well....

They were all on their way out or gone when i came into the system.

1. Buffel
2. No Clue
3. No clue
4. No clue
5. No clue
6. looks like a casspir but what seems to be a hatch is on the left, the casspir has one hatch and its in the front middel, very dodgy indeed.

[playtym]

I may as well give this a go too. :)


http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/9040/attachmentxr9.th.jpg (http://img398.imageshack.us/my.php?image=attachmentxr9.jpg)

1. Buffel

2. It's got the protrusion for the commanders hatch on the left side that the AC200 has, but looks like it's only got four wheels, rather than the AC200's six wheels.
It looks similar to an Ingwe, but the front windows are wrong.
The only other vehicle I know of that looks similar is the Soetdoring, but that has flat nose with a grill, so I'm stumped - unless it's an early version of one of them.

3. Again, I'm stumped. The only thing I've seen that remotely resembles this is the SAP Albatross, but that has two front window panes, not three.

4. Rhino - built on a Samil 20

5. The Nyala you posted earlier

6. Casspir


Come on, blastmaster, put us out of our misery.

[AtK]

I may as well give this a go too. :)


http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/9040/attachmentxr9.th.jpg (http://img398.imageshack.us/my.php?image=attachmentxr9.jpg)

1. Buffel

2. It's got the protrusion for the commanders hatch on the left side that the AC200 has, but looks like it's only got four wheels, rather than the AC200's six wheels.
It looks similar to an Ingwe, but the front windows are wrong.
The only other vehicle I know of that looks similar is the Soetdoring, but that has flat nose with a grill, so I'm stumped - unless it's an early version of one of them.

3. Again, I'm stumped. The only thing I've seen that remotely resembles this is the SAP Albatross, but that has two front window panes, not three.

4. Rhino - built on a Samil 20

5. The Nyala you posted earlier

6. Casspir


Come on, blastmaster, put us out of our misery.


Ah, the "thick plottens" as the saying goes.



No, Not AC 200
Not early Rinkhals type(s)
(First ever)Nyala is not an early APC
Middle vehicles - one has Mercedes Benz running gear, the other (mixed) Samil componentry


1. Buffel.
2. Remark 34
3. Remark 32
4. Remark 33
5. Remark 31
6. Casspir

????

[wilhelm]

Playtym, the Rino has rectangular windows and a slightly different nose/grill, unless this is a prototype. I never considered the Soetdoring for any, due to it's flat front-end. But, as you say, prototypes often look different to production types, so perhaps I need to relook at some of the more esoteric prototypes.

Come on Blastmaster, time to tell us.....:)

[blastmaster]

Playtym, the Rino has rectangular windows and a slightly different nose/grill, unless this is a prototype. I never considered the Soetdoring for any, due to it's flat front-end. But, as you say, prototypes often look different to production types, so perhaps I need to relook at some of the more esoteric prototypes.

Come on Blastmaster, time to tell us.....:)

AtK seems to be on the scent of the trail of Project Remark.

Project Remark was announced by Armscor in 1983 as the (ambitious) replacement project for both the Buffel and Casspir vehicles (it will explain why they were in the picture) as they were used as performance reference benchmarks in the evaluation of the various concept vehicles built for the Remark trials.

Because Sandock Austral had most of the armoured vehicle business at the time (any guesses why that should have been the case?) they were supposedly officially "excluded" from the competition (or so the industry was led to believe at the time) to give other interested parties with the necessary expertise a chance to compete for the some of the armoured vehicle business.

Surprize, surprize when the submissions went in, Sandock Austral was back in the competition, only, now Dorbyl was "fronting" for them and they were the “supporting design and development team" but Armscor fooled nobody into believing that this was no more than a clever way to let Sandock Austral back into the competition via the back door.

With regards to Project Remark it must be mentioned that it was always going to be a difficult ask to come up with a single cost effective vehicle that could do what the Buffel and Casspir could do with enhanced blast protection to defeat the British Mk7 mine (which was a source of major concern at the time and had caused some serious problems out in the field) but Armscor were going to try and achieve this objective.

Also, when Project Remark was originally announced the stated intention was that a "winner" was going to be selected after a comprehensive and thorough evaluation programme and then as many as possible of the desirable features from the other competitors that were considered worth having in the "new all singing and dancing" winner of the competition that could be incorporated in this vehicle, would be incorporated.

Interestingly enough, and a major shortcoming of the project, was that no target "cost per protected seat" objectives were set at the outset of the project which was quite typical of Armscor at the time where cost effective application of public funds was not a major consideration. Considering that South Africa was under enormous financial pressure at the time due to the impact on the South African economy of international sanctions cost effectiveness should have been a major driver.

A formal tender was issued, the tender responses were duly received (including indicative serial production prices) and four potential suppliers were contracted to build concept demonstrators/evaluation vehicles.

The four suppliers/teams contracted were: Dorbyl/Sandock Austral, Truckmakers, TFM and MMI/Van de Wetering Engineering.

The concept vehicles ranged from a relatively cheap, simple, practical vehicle in the form of the Nyala (31) with leaf spring suspension to a very expensive and technically much more complex Dorbyl/Sandock Austral (No 34) vehicle with coil spring mounted hub reduction axles similar to the Ratel.

The vehicles were then trialled starting in 1985 and evaluated by Armscor/SADF (and all of them performed very well in trials) and met most of the laid down requirements.

A memorable incident from this time was that the Truckmakers vehicle caught fire during the last official (blast) tests when being blasted with more than 20kg of TNT and to the surprise of all those watching, the vehicle kept on burning for almost 7 hours till only a blackened hull was eventually left. Amazing how a vehicle with so much steel and so relatively little flammable material could burn so violently and take so long to burn out in spite of efforts to put the fire out.


It is a matter of public record now that Dorbyl/Sandock Austral (for this now read Sandock Austral only as Dorbyl had “surprisingly” dropped out of the picture after the trials) were then contracted to continue with development of the new "super dooper" vehicle which had been spec’ed by Armscor after the conclusion of the trials.

This vehicle in its morphed form became known as Velskoen – a complex, very expensive, nose heavy vehicle that seemed to undergo endless changes and modifications and re-design, in the process swallowing up millions of Rands ………..and then finally never going into production!

By 2000 the reliable “old” Buffels and Casspirs which were to have been replaced by Velskoens were still in service with the SANDF (and some may still even be in service today) so what this exercise really achieved is beyond me.


Attached is a picture of a development Velskoen undergoing trials.

[sa_bushwar]

Tell your dad to look at my website about the Bushwar at: www.geocities.com/sa_bushwar

Can he give descriptions to the photos???



Some pictures my dad took during his time in the army.

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/Falconry1.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/Falconry2.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/Owambo.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/barracks.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/buffel1.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/buffel2.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/buffel3.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/helicopter.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/helicopter1.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/plane.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/plane1.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/plane_soldiers.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldier.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers1.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers10.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers11.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers2.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers3.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk220/drevil5000/sadf/soldiers4.jpg

[blastmaster]

Tell your dad to look at my website about the Bushwar at: www.geocities.com/sa_bushwar (http://www.geocities.com/sa_bushwar)

Can he give descriptions to the photos???

Hello SA-Bushwar,

Cannot work out the drift of your question - don't you have information on these pics or is it a trick question? If these pics belong to your dad, then why can't he give you the information? I am sure other readers on this site may also be able to contribute.

As far as the vehicles are concerned, there are of course Buffels and a Hippo in the pics and unless I am mistaken the one pic might well have been taken at Eenhana where they had a very tall radio mast I used as beacon when we flew to the airfield there at tree-top height to avoid the SA 7 Strelas.

The hawks in some of the pics did duty as I recall to chase away the nuisance birds from the airfields to prevent aircraft hitting them particularly during take-offs. A bird strike in an aircraft, particularly a fast jet is a quite unpleasant experience I am told.

Best of luck getting the info you are after.

[AtK]

Hello SA-Bushwar,

Cannot work out the drift of your question - don't you have information on these pics or is it a trick question? If these pics belong to your dad, then why can't he give you the information? I am sure other readers on this site may also be able to contribute.

As far as the vehicles are concerned, there are of course Buffels and a Hippo in the pics and unless I am mistaken the one pic might well have been taken at Eenhana where they had a very tall radio mast I used as beacon when we flew to the airfield there at tree-top height to avoid the SA 7 Strelas.

The hawks in some of the pics did duty as I recall to chase away the nuisance birds from the airfields to prevent aircraft hitting them particularly during take-offs. A bird strike in an aircraft, particularly a fast jet is a quite unpleasant experience I am told.

Best of luck getting the info you are after.

All the bases should have had tall radio masts.
It seems as if the base(s) indicated are still under development - no dirt walls or bunkers that I could see. I would suggest circa early 70's.
Specificy the exact info and maybe we could help.

[AtK]

blastmaster
Can you provide some info on the AC200. I couldn't find anything.

[blastmaster]

blastmaster
Can you provide some info on the AC200. I couldn't find anything.

Will see what I can do.

[blastmaster]

All the bases should have had tall radio masts.
It seems as if the base(s) indicated are still under development - no dirt walls or bunkers that I could see. I would suggest circa early 70's.
Specificy the exact info and maybe we could help.

Was definitley not early 70's as the Buffel only went into service in late 78/early 79 and the Buffels in the pics are not from the first production run.

I would guess we are looking at around late 79 or early 80/81.

[AtK]

Was definitley not early 70's as the Buffel only went into service in late 78/early 79 and the Buffels in the pics are not from the first production run.

I would guess we are looking at around late 79 or early 80/81.

I concur on your comments. I suppose not all the photo's come from the same era.

[wilhelm]

Blastmaster, thank you very much for the interesting backround info. So, to round off, the vehicles' in the picture from left to right are....Buffel / Remark 34 Sandock Austral / Truckmakers? / TFM? / Remark 31 Nyala / Casspir.

[wilhelm]

blastmaster
Can you provide some info on the AC200. I couldn't find anything.

I might have some sparse info at home. I'll see if I can post something tomorrow.

[AtK]

Milan returns to army fold
BY LEON ENGELBRECHT (leon@itweb.co.za), ITWEB SENIOR WRITER
Johannesburg, 28 August 2008 ] - The SA Army and the Special Forces have received the first of about 30 antitank guided missile launchers, upgraded at a cost of R167.4 million, as part of Project Kingfisher.

The contract provided for the remanufacture of Milan (Missile d'Infanterie Leger ANtichar – infantry light antitank missile) launchers placed in storage in 1996 to an “advanced digital technology” standard.

The deal also included training, missiles and assorted maintenance equipment, spare parts and other materiel.

The SA Army contracted European missile maker MBDA in December 2006 to upgrade some of the army's Milan launcher inventory to ADT (ADvanced Technology) standard and to provide new Milan 3 missiles for the launchers.

SA acquired the second-generation semi-automatic command line-of sight (Saclos) missiles in 1974 and the original missiles were too old to safely use by the 1990s.

MBDA says the SA Army formally accepted the missile at its German facility at Schrobenhausen in December 2007, a year after the deal was first inked.

There army representatives checked and confirmed the functionality of an initial five units. In addition, the maintenance equipment, initial spares package and logistic and maintenance systems for product support were demonstrated and also received customer acceptance.

Work then proceeded briskly. MBDA and local BEE-empowered partner Fulcrum Defence Solutions delivered the first batch of rejuvenated Milan ADT firing posts to the SA Army on 16 February. The delivery also included Milan 3 munitions and a training simulator.

Next followed troop trails at the SA Army's Infantry School training institution, in Oudtshoorn, in the Western Cape province. As SA is the launch customer of the Milan ADT firing post, the trials were also the first operational evaluation of the new, fully digitised mount, MBDA says.

The trials concluded with a live fire exercise during which 10 rounds were fired – and 10 hits recorded. Witnesses say the Milan ADT firing post and its Milan 3 missiles operated perfectly when engaging both stationary and mobile targets at various ranges.

"The troop trial confirms Milan's unique reliability. The extraordinary capabilities of the weapon system, which have already been successfully proven in numerous field operations, allow the engagement of a wide variety of targets, including not only tanks with reactive armour, but also helicopters, bunkers, fortifications or command posts in shelters," says Werner Kaltenegger, MD of MBDA Deutschland with overall transnational responsibility for Milan ADT-ER (Extended Range) within MBDA.

ADT-ER is the combination of the ADT launcher and the Milan 3 missile.

"The delivery of the new Milan ADT firing post is an important contribution to the modernisation of SA's armed forces. Thanks to its improved optics, integrated thermal imager and digitised localiser, Milan ADT meets the requirements of today's modern armed forces for a close combat weapon deployable in all conditions, day and night against a wide range of ground targets," he adds.

Milan is in use with 44 countries. To date, 360 000 Milan guided missiles and approximately 10 000 firing posts have been sold.

Some 10 000 missiles have been fired in operations and out of a total of over 100 000 firings (which includes training rounds) the hit rate has been a consistently high 95%.

Older generation weapons – without IT-enabled Saclos guidance – typically boast a hit-rate below 30%.

[wilhelm]

I never knew we received the Milan in 1974. I assumed we got them by circumventing the embargo during the early 1980's. Oh well, you learn something new every day.
Was the Milan ever used by the SADF operationally?

[exT70]

Milan returns to army fold
BY LEON ENGELBRECHT (leon@itweb.co.za), ITWEB SENIOR WRITER
Johannesburg, 28 August 2008 ] - The SA Army and the Special Forces have received the first of about 30 antitank guided missile launchers, upgraded at a cost of R167.4 million, as part of Project Kingfisher.

Next followed troop trails at the SA Army's Infantry School training institution, in Oudtshoorn, in the Western Cape province. As SA is the launch customer of the Milan ADT firing post, the trials were also the first operational evaluation of the new, fully digitised mount, MBDA says.

The trials concluded with a live fire exercise during which 10 rounds were fired – and 10 hits recorded. Witnesses say the Milan ADT firing post and its Milan 3 missiles operated perfectly when engaging both stationary and mobile targets at various ranges.

"The troop trial confirms Milan's unique reliability. The extraordinary capabilities of the weapon system, which have already been successfully proven in numerous field operations, allow the engagement of a wide variety of targets, including not only tanks with reactive armour, but also helicopters, bunkers, fortifications or command posts in shelters," says Werner Kaltenegger, MD of MBDA Deutschland with overall transnational responsibility for Milan ADT-ER (Extended Range) within MBDA.


Lovely
Now we have yet another weapon/missle in our inventory that is too bloody expensive to use/fire/train on. Simulation is a good and cost effective tool, but should never replace or be seen as an alternative for "live" work. After the innitial 10 missles being fired, anybody wants to take a bet on how many "live" rounds will be fired yearly. One per course?
And for interest sake. Best student and gunner who fired most of the missles (other than the "testers" that is) to date was a woman. Not all shots were hits. Within first couple there was a miss/misses, as some idiot indicated a target at too short a distance. Always a shortcoming for ATGM. When gunner pointed out problem, 100% hit-rate was achieved.

[AtK]

Lovely
Now we have yet another weapon/missle in our inventory that is too bloody expensive to use/fire/train on. Simulation is a good and cost effective tool, but should never replace or be seen as an alternative for "live" work. After the innitial 10 missles being fired, anybody wants to take a bet on how many "live" rounds will be fired yearly. One per course?
And for interest sake. Best student and gunner who fired most of the missles (other than the "testers" that is) to date was a woman. Not all shots were hits. Within first couple there was a miss/misses, as some idiot indicated a target at too short a distance. Always a shortcoming for ATGM. When gunner pointed out problem, 100% hit-rate was achieved.

Are you saying a woman shot most of the first 10 missiles?

[exT70]

Are you saying a woman shot most of the first 10 missiles?

Cannot put my head on a block, but yes. Might have been 10 missles test fired somewhere else before, but in the first group that received training on the new updated version, the best student was female. She got to fire the first missle and then the largest number of the rest. Due to cost, not all students will fire live rounds. Same with tank training for instance. Lately only best student gets to fire FS. Rest only sim and a mix of other cheaper ammo. Maybe 5 or 6 rounds on tanker gunnery if you are lucky (which on the Olifant cannot possible properly qualify a gunner). Understand my problem with expensive missles? Nice to have, but you can't train on them. On the other hand, the performance of the then untested and untrained ZT3 in Angola at the end of the 80's, might slightly counter my argument.
Back to females. We have found that in general female rifleman make better shots and especially gunners. Maybe due to more attention to detail. I think the Russians had a similar experience during WWII.

[AtK]

I never knew we received the Milan in 1974. I assumed we got them by circumventing the embargo during the early 1980's. Oh well, you learn something new every day.
Was the Milan ever used by the SADF operationally?

The MILAN Standard was deployed - whether operational shots were ever fired requires some investigation.

[AtK]

Cannot put my head on a block, but yes. Might have been 10 missles test fired somewhere else before, but in the first group that received training on the new updated version, the best student was female. She got to fire the first missle and then the largest number of the rest. Due to cost, not all students will fire live rounds. Same with tank training for instance. Lately only best student gets to fire FS. Rest only sim and a mix of other cheaper ammo. Maybe 5 or 6 rounds on tanker gunnery if you are lucky (which on the Olifant cannot possible properly qualify a gunner). Understand my problem with expensive missles? Nice to have, but you can't train on them. On the other hand, the performance of the then untested and untrained ZT3 in Angola at the end of the 80's, might slightly counter my argument.
Back to females. We have found that in general female rifleman make better shots and especially gunners. Maybe due to more attention to detail. I think the Russians had a similar experience during WWII.


Expensive missiles are a reality - I doubt very much that you will find cheap missiles. There is a thread discussing ATGM for some good info. How they are employed is the determining factor. The difference between simulator and real firing is only the actual real live ammunition. Otherwise no actual difference in experience for the crew. War is expensive. Regards the woman being better - possibly. Luckily the MILAN does not discriminate between male and female.

[AtK]

I never knew we received the Milan in 1974. I assumed we got them by circumventing the embargo during the early 1980's. Oh well, you learn something new every day.
Was the Milan ever used by the SADF operationally?

The first attachment is the Milan ADT referred to in the article above.
The second attachment is a photo of the Milan in use by 32 Battalion.

[wilhelm]

Here is a picture of the Soetdoring APC.

[wilhelm]

Atk, as requested, below is some basic info on the Ac-200. It comes from Romer-Heitman's South African Arms & Armour published in the mid 1980's.