South African National Defence Force

[AtK]

I never knew we received the Milan in 1974. I assumed we got them by circumventing the embargo during the early 1980's. Oh well, you learn something new every day.
Was the Milan ever used by the SADF operationally?

The first attachment is the Milan ADT referred to in the article above.
The second attachment is a photo of the Milan in use by 32 Battalion.

[wilhelm]

Here is a picture of the Soetdoring APC.

[wilhelm]

Atk, as requested, below is some basic info on the Ac-200. It comes from Romer-Heitman's South African Arms & Armour published in the mid 1980's.

[AtK]

wilhelm
Thank you.

[wilhelm]

My pleasure Atk.

Blastmaster, do you have any other photos of the above test vehicles? Any further photos/information of these or any other projects would be greatly appreciated.:)

[exT70]

AAD08 SANDF Milan

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/AAD08/MilanSANDFDSCF9727.jpg
Milan returns to army fold
BY LEON ENGELBRECHT (leon@itweb.co.za), ITWEB SENIOR WRITER
Johannesburg, 28 August 2008 ] - The SA Army and the Special Forces have received the first of about 30 antitank guided missile launchers, upgraded at a cost of R167.4 million, as part of Project Kingfisher.

The contract provided for the remanufacture of Milan (Missile d'Infanterie Leger ANtichar – infantry light antitank missile) launchers placed in storage in 1996 to an “advanced digital technology” standard.

The deal also included training, missiles and assorted maintenance equipment, spare parts and other materiel.

The SA Army contracted European missile maker MBDA in December 2006 to upgrade some of the army's Milan launcher inventory to ADT (ADvanced Technology) standard and to provide new Milan 3 missiles for the launchers.

SA acquired the second-generation semi-automatic command line-of sight (Saclos) missiles in 1974 and the original missiles were too old to safely use by the 1990s.

MBDA says the SA Army formally accepted the missile at its German facility at Schrobenhausen in December 2007, a year after the deal was first inked.

There army representatives checked and confirmed the functionality of an initial five units. In addition, the maintenance equipment, initial spares package and logistic and maintenance systems for product support were demonstrated and also received customer acceptance.

Work then proceeded briskly. MBDA and local BEE-empowered partner Fulcrum Defence Solutions delivered the first batch of rejuvenated Milan ADT firing posts to the SA Army on 16 February. The delivery also included Milan 3 munitions and a training simulator.

Next followed troop trails at the SA Army's Infantry School training institution, in Oudtshoorn, in the Western Cape province. As SA is the launch customer of the Milan ADT firing post, the trials were also the first operational evaluation of the new, fully digitised mount, MBDA says.

The trials concluded with a live fire exercise during which 10 rounds were fired – and 10 hits recorded. Witnesses say the Milan ADT firing post and its Milan 3 missiles operated perfectly when engaging both stationary and mobile targets at various ranges.

"The troop trial confirms Milan's unique reliability. The extraordinary capabilities of the weapon system, which have already been successfully proven in numerous field operations, allow the engagement of a wide variety of targets, including not only tanks with reactive armour, but also helicopters, bunkers, fortifications or command posts in shelters," says Werner Kaltenegger, MD of MBDA Deutschland with overall transnational responsibility for Milan ADT-ER (Extended Range) within MBDA.

ADT-ER is the combination of the ADT launcher and the Milan 3 missile.

"The delivery of the new Milan ADT firing post is an important contribution to the modernisation of SA's armed forces. Thanks to its improved optics, integrated thermal imager and digitised localiser, Milan ADT meets the requirements of today's modern armed forces for a close combat weapon deployable in all conditions, day and night against a wide range of ground targets," he adds.

Milan is in use with 44 countries. To date, 360 000 Milan guided missiles and approximately 10 000 firing posts have been sold.

Some 10 000 missiles have been fired in operations and out of a total of over 100 000 firings (which includes training rounds) the hit rate has been a consistently high 95%.

Older generation weapons – without IT-enabled Saclos guidance – typically boast a hit-rate below 30%.

[exT70]

AAD08 Milan
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/AAD08/MilanSANDFDSCF9728.jpg

[exT70]

R4 GL
AAD08
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/AAD08/R4GLDSCF9701.jpg

[exT70]

R4 GL
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/AAD08/R4GLDSCF9705.jpg
[/quote]

[exT70]

R4 GL

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/AAD08/R4GlDSCF9699.jpg

[exT70]

SS77 GPMG (7.62mm)
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/AAD08/SS77GPMGDSCF9787.jpg
mm)

[exT70]

SS77 Compact


http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/AAD08/SS77CompactDSCF9782.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/AAD08/SS77CompactDSCF9788.jpg

[exT70]

SS77 Mini (5.56mm)
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/AAD08/SS77MiniDSCF9786.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/AAD08/SS77MiniDSCF9785.jpg

[Rudolph]

Taken at the airshow? I wanted to go!!! Some US army guys tested a new Truvelo sniping-rifle at the one shooting range as well.

[baboon6]

SS77 GPMG (7.62mm)
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/AAD08/SS77GPMGDSCF9787.jpg
mm)
What's that behind the SS77? 20mm cannon?

[exT70]

What's that behind the SS77? 20mm cannon?

Nope.
30mm Cam Gun for Hoefyster.
Had the 60 breachload next to it.

[exT70]

Nope.
30mm Cam Gun for Hoefyster.
Had the 60 breachload next to it.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/AAD08/Gi30CamGunDSCF9781.jpg

[exT70]

Nope.
30mm Cam Gun for Hoefyster.
Had the 60 breachload next to it.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/AAD08/60BreechloadDSCF9779.jpg

[YANKEEBOBB]

Here's a few pics I scanned from an old book I have called:
South African War Machine
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9127/1119tz7.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1119tz7.jpg) http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2441/1118oi0.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1118oi0.jpg)
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9853/1115zm0.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1115zm0.jpg) http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3811/1116cb8.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1116cb8.jpg)
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/5660/1117bc9.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1117bc9.jpg)

[Ironsight06]

That's one book I would like to get my hands on. Thanks for sharing. :)

What unit is that in the third picture? Pathfinders or maybe Hunter group?

[Rudolph]

That's one book I would like to get my hands on. Thanks for sharing. :)

What unit is that in the third picture? Pathfinders or maybe Hunter group?

If you're talking about the guy looking at the camera, with an open crate in-front of him... that's captain Hougaard, from 32 Battallion. Next photo is Recces. Last one is not specified. Maybe Koevoet.

[Ironsight06]

If you're talking about the guy looking at the camera, with an open crate in-front of him... that's captain Hougaard, from 32 Battallion. Next photo is Recces. Last one is not specified. Maybe Koevoet.
I meant this one:
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3811/1116cb8.th.jpg

[Rudolph]

I meant this one:
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3811/1116cb8.th.jpg

Special Forces.

[YANKEEBOBB]

That's one book I would like to get my hands on. Thanks for sharing. :)

What unit is that in the third picture? Pathfinders or maybe Hunter group?

Yeah, awesome book. I've had my heard buried in it for 3 days of every bit of my free time I had.

The 3rd pic's caption just says "reconnaissance Commandos".

Here's a few more oldies from the book.

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/3397/1125vh1.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1125vh1.jpg) http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/6311/1124st4.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1124st4.jpg)
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/7903/1120ka9.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1120ka9.jpg) http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4363/1121yc0.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1121yc0.jpg)
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/7398/1122dd2.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1122dd2.jpg)

[soutikghosh]

Any latest news or development about the LEO artillery ?

[GETSOME]

If you're talking about the guy looking at the camera, with an open crate in-front of him... that's captain Hougaard, from 32 Battallion. Next photo is Recces. Last one is not specified. Maybe Koevoet.
Last one i dont think is Koevoet,i mean horses and Buffels?

[Rudolph]

Last one i dont think is Koevoet,i mean horses and Buffels?

Ja, there's another Ops K photo which looks quite similar, that's why I said that...

[prion]

Any latest news or development about the LEO artillery ?


The Leo 105mm is a technology demonstrator for taking the 105 into the 39 caliber 155 range with equal or better terminal footprint with PFF shells.

As you know it has been integrated in the GDLS turret on the stryker:

http://www.denellandsystems.co.za/lavIII_T7_artillery_products.html

But as a towed system I believe the only/first customer would be the SANDF after further development - AFAIK Project Musuku - as in the article below and if there is money for it. There is also the possible development of a Tatra 815 (6 × 6) truck platform 105.

Engineering News

Published: 20 Apr 07 - 0:00
Just over a week after losing the Turkish attack helicopter competition, State-owned defence industrial group Denel may be receiving good news on another front. The authoritative journal Jane’s Defence Weekly has reported that Denel Land Systems is likely to be awarded a contract by defence acquisition, disposal, and research and development agency Armscor to develop a new 105-mm light artillery system for the South African Army.



The new system is reportedly called the Advanced Multirole Light Artillery Gun Capability, or AMLAGC. The AMLAGC will be based on an existing 105-mm artillery system, but will have a “significant increase” in capabilities.



For some years now, Denel has been developing a 105-mm light towed gun-howitzer, to which it has given the name Leo. This is the obvious basis for the AMLAGC.



The Leo prototype has a mass of 3,8 t, although the objective for production developments was to get the mass to below 3 t. In its towed position, the Leo is 6,9 m long, 2,02 m wide, and less than 2,1 m high. It has a crew of five, who can deploy the weapon in two minutes and take it out of action in three minutes. There is no need to prepare the ground before firing the gun.



The Leo can be towed by a 5-t 4 10005 4 vehicle at speeds of up to 100 km/h on highways, and 50 km/h on secondary roads, and it has a fording depth of 0,6 m. It has a maximum rate of fire of six rounds a minute for eight minutes at maxi- mum charge; the sustained rate of fire is two rounds a minute. Maximum range at sea level with standard ammunition is more than 24 km, with base bleed shells more than 28 km, and with velocity enhanced long-range artillery projectiles, it can exceed 36 km.



The barrel is 52 calibres long (that is, 52 10005 105 = 5 460 mm); the barrel is fitted with a pepperpot muzzle brake, rifled on the inside, which has the same effect as lengthening the barrel by a further five calibres – to simplify, the longer the barrel, the longer the range. The recoil length is fixed at one metre.



The Leo is highly transportable – two guns, with ammunition, can be fitted into a single C-130 Hercules aircraft (this is currently the largest transport aircraft in the South African Air Force).



The Leo can, and the AMLAGC also certainly will, use the same ancillary equipment as the South African Army’s existing G5 and G6 155-mm artillery systems. These comprise the command and fire control systems, the meteorological systems, observation systems, and voice and data communication systems.



The need for the development of the AMLAGC lies in the growing commitment of the South African Army to potentially hazardous peace missions elsewhere in the continent

[Rudolph]

^^^
Last reports are all from 2007.

Stryker Self Propelled (SP) 105mm Indirect Fire (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/iav-sph.htm)

The US Army has a stated requirement for an indirect fire support capability for its Interim Stryker Brigade Combat Teams, for which the US House of Representatives passed a bill during May 2003. The House Defense Authorization Act required a report to be submitted by the Secretary of the Army to the Deputy Secretary of Defense not later than July 8, 2003, that identifies options for modifications to the equipment and configuration of the Army brigade designated as "Stryker brigades" to assure that those brigades, after incorporating such modifications, provide a higher level of combat capability and sustainability; a capability across a broader spectrum of combat operations; and a capability to be employed independently of higher-level command formations and support. The Secretary of the Army was required to include among the enhancements considered for the configuration of the fourth Stryker brigade combat team enhancement with heavy armored vehicles, with additional heavy attack helicopters, with additional reconnaissance and attack helicopters, and with indirect fire artillery capabilities, or with any combination thereof.

The Stryker mortar carrier is the basic Stryker equipped with a 120mm mortar system. One of ten different variations of the Stryker, it provides indirect fire support to Soldiers in the Army's six Stryker brigade combat teams. The Stryker Mobile Gun System carries a 105mm cannon, the same gun tube as the one on the original M-1 Abrams tank. This is not a tank replacement, but it gives a direct fire capability to support the infantry elements.

This program started with a teaming agreement in July 2003 with GDLS to customise the Denel Land Systems Light Experimental Ordnance (LEO) 105mm artillery ballistic system for various requirements in the USA and Canadian Armies, the USA Marine Corps, and other potential customers. Major challenges facing the joint Denel-GDLS team were to integrate the system with the USA Inertial Navigation Unit and its Towed Artillery Digitised Fire Control System.

In October 2004 General Dynamics Land Systems signed a teaming agreement with Denel of South Africa to jointly customize and market more lethal, long-range and lightweight 105-mm artillery systems for domestic and international customers. Denel is the world leader in the development of long-range artillery systems. General Dynamics Land Systems is the defense industry's largest system developer, integrator and manufacturer of ground combat armored military vehicles. The company designs and builds armored vehicles and systems worldwide.

Denel Land Systems Lyttelton built a turret around its 105mm LEO system which was integrated on the GDLS LAV-III vehicle in Canada during February 2004. The system was then formally launched at the AUSA Conference in Fort Lauderdale, Florida in March 2004 and subsequently tested at a facility on the Eglin Air Force Base, USA. After a demonstration at the US Army Field Artillery Centre at Fort Sill in April 2004, the system was exhibited at several exhibitions and conferences in the USA and Canada.

Denel's newly developed Uni-Modular artillery Charge System for 105mm guns proved equally successful during the Fort Sill demonstration. At the same time, Denel's 105mm Pre-formed Fragmentation projectile was also subjected to a comparative test with natural fragmentation ammunition. Although non-US military personnel were not allowed to be present at this arena test, the results were most impressive, according to unofficial information. It would seem that Denel's pre-formed fragmentation ammunition showed its terminal effect to be two and a half times that of the natural fragmentation ammunition.

At a demonstration in the United States in November 2005 Denel scored high with its 105mm light artillery ammunition and turret mounted on the LAV III (Stryker) vehicle built by US company General Dynamics Land Systems (GDLS). Most senior US Artillery decision makers, including Maj Gen M Ralston, new Commandant of the US Army Field Artillery Center, attended the demonstration held at the Fort Sill Military Base in the USA on 15 and 16 November 2005. With this demonstration Denel and GDLS proved the success of the prototype Self Propelled (SP) 105mm artillery system and Denel's pre-formed fragmentation ammunition.

[Rudolph]

MONDAY NIGHT 23:00, SABC1 - They are repeating COUNTING THE BOOTY: BETRAYED. It followes a couple of ex-SADF soldiers, formerly 32 Battallion, as they revisit areas from the Border War. It also includes military footage, and an interview with Jan Breytenbach. Hopefully someone can record it and upload it to Youtube for our international friends. I am gonna try to arrange that.


COUNTING THE BOOTY: UNSPOKEN WAR AKA BETRAYAL 23:00 – 00:00
MONDAY 29 September DOCUMENTARY (Loc)

An exploration of the white male psyche who feels marginalized in a democratic, post apartheid South Africa. They conducted compulsory national service in the 1970’s, 80’s under apartheid rule of the former government and put their lives at stake for the sake of “volk and vaderland”. They held top positions in the former political dispensation and used to be in control of their lives and the country. Today they find themselves unwanted and at the bottom of the ‘food chain’ within the new South African context.

[YANKEEBOBB]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Man, I'd love to see that. Someone please post any info or links if it does become available on Youtube or anywhere else.

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/6702/1126vy3.th.jpg (http://img528.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1126vy3.jpg) http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/6590/1127pp0.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1127pp0.jpg) http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1332/1128xj9.th.jpg (http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1128xj9.jpg)

[AtK]

The SANDF hsa made it into the PS3 gaming arena. The character (Mr Obayana) who sells the primary weapons in Army of Two is wearing SANDF camo uniform. I wonder if that is allowed?

[AtK]

AAD08 Milan
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l305/exT70/AAD08/MilanSANDFDSCF9728.jpg
exT70, isn't this the old standard Milan?

[exT70]

exT70, isn't this the old standard Milan?
I have not seen the new toys myself, but the "new" SANDF Milan is supposed to be no more than an upgrade of the old SADF posts and new generation missles. Anotherword a re-use of the old posts in storage.

[AtK]

I have not seen the new toys myself, but the "new" SANDF Milan is supposed to be no more than an upgrade of the old SADF posts and new generation missles. Anotherword a re-use of the old posts in storage.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=56604&d=1220527374

exT70
You can see the difference - this is the ADT version with the integrated thermal imager.

[AtK]

SA soldiers drown in DRC 01/10/2008 15:55 - (SA)
Johannesburg - Two South African soldiers have drowned in the Democratic Republic of Congo, Defence Minister Charles Nqakula (http://www.whoswhosa.co.za/Pages/profilefull.aspx?IndID=900) announced on Wednesday. His office said preliminary reports indicated the two were in a Mamba vehicle with five other soldiers when it fell into a river near Kitchanga on Tuesday. The bridge the vehicle was crossing collapsed.
"Five of the seven soldiers managed to swim to safety, but unfortunately two others were trapped in the vehicle," the defence ministry said in a statement.
The remains of the two soldiers had since been recovered. Their names would be released once their next-of-kin had been informed. The ministry said SA National Defence Force chief General Godfrey Ngwenya (http://www.whoswhosa.co.za/Pages/profilefull.aspx?IndID=5472) had ordered the convening of a board of inquiry to investigate the incident.

If memory serves, a similiar event occurred in Burundi involving a CASSPIR. Two soldiers died in that incident.

The SANDF is losing soldiers at a steady rate for various reasons.

[AtK]

Nuclear carrier gets OK
01/10/2008 19:18 - (SA)
Cape Town - The National Nuclear Regulator has given permission for the United States' nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt to drop anchor in Table Bay this week.
The approval was granted over objections from environmental group Earthlife Africa, which has said it plans protests against the vessel.
The 332m carrier is expected to arrive in Table Bay on Friday on a courtesy visit, at the invitation of the SA Navy.
A spokesperson for the regulator, Tim Hill, said on Wednesday that the license granted for the visit obliged the applicants - the SA and US navies - to observe safe operating procedures.
Emergency plan
It also called for an emergency plan devised by the City of Cape Town to be operational.
Hill said though the license allowed the regulator to monitor the environment around the ship for radiation, it would likely rely only on existing detectors set up to monitor Koeberg nuclear power station, a few kilometres north of the Roosevelt's planned anchorage.
The vessel would lay up in the middle of Table Bay, he said.
The license covered the period October 1 to 10.
Hill said liability in case of an accident was governed by the provisions of the National Nuclear Regulator Act.
He believed this would be the first visit to Cape Town by a nuclear-powered vessel since the German cargo ship the Otto Hahn in the 1970s.
Nuclear-powered submarines from the British navy had, however, visited Simon's Town.
The carrier, built in the early 80s, carries a crew of about 3 200, with another 2 480 members of the air wing, plus 85 aircraft.
She first saw active service in the US' 1991 Operation Desert Shield, dropping over 4.8 million pounds of explosives.

This is great – pity can't be there. Why not during the AAD 2008??

[bravo_four]

Been meaning to post these for a while they came from the Artillery Open Day at Potch this year...

[GETSOME]

^^^^
Nice pics,welcome.p-)

[bravo_four]

Thanks dude I used to be sierra tango but then I lost my password...some more...

[wilhelm]

Further to my request for any pictures on the rare (2 prototypes) Ratel Logistics 8x8 vehicle, I found this image on my PC. I'm unsure where I got it from originally...but certainly the best pic of the Ratel Log I've seen.

[AtK]

Wilhelm, I'm sure one of the prototypes are displayed at either Fort Klapperkop or at the Voortrekker monument. Maybe someone can confirm.

[ingletonr]

Wilhelm, I'm sure one of the prototypes are displayed at either Fort Klapperkop or at the Voortrekker monument. Maybe someone can confirm.

There is one example at LMB Zwartkop. No idea where the other one would be.

[ingletonr]

I was given an advance screening by the producer Linda de Jager a few months ago of the Cuito and Ops Daisy episodes. Well balanced and with footage that will blow you guys away.

She has told me that once the show has finished airing she will look into having it released on DVD. She is also in discussions with Discovery about having the show translated and aired on either discovery or history.

I will keep you guys in the loop.

Hi TG - any news on this? I'm in New Zealand and can't get DSTV

[ingletonr]

I wonder what will happen to them?
Are they going to be sold?
Or would they go on display?

If they are sold, I highly doubt that an African country would be interested in purchasing them in any great numbers. They are an expensive aircraft to maintain.

[AtK]

There is one example at LMB Zwartkop. No idea where the other one would be.


Where at Swartkop?

[seadog73021]

Hi all on the forum,

I have just joined the forum and thought I should introduce myself. My service was in the SA Navy as a dog handler and then Marine (21 years) in the Navy reserve. My main interest at this stage is Warrant Officer rank badges of Southern Africa including UDF, SADF, Homelands and SADC countries. I will follow this up with photos of some of the badges. Some can be viewed at:
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/560958944guIcuF?vhost=home-and-garden (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/560958944guIcuF?vhost=home-and-garden). I am desperatly looking for the Sergeant Magor: Quartermaster General badge (1980-1999) if anyone can help.

[ingletonr]

Where at Swartkop?

The last time I saw it in 2005 it was parked on the apron amongst the other old army vehicles ( in front of the SAAF Museum hangars).

I have seen from recent photos that some items have been moved around (the C160 is now inside a hangar) so it may or may not still be there.

[the_hog]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Man, I'd love to see that. Someone please post any info or links if it does become available on Youtube or anywhere else.

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/6702/1126vy3.th.jpg (http://img528.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1126vy3.jpg) http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/6590/1127pp0.th.jpg (http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1127pp0.jpg) http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1332/1128xj9.th.jpg (http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1128xj9.jpg)
Fairly early photo as the SAP were taken out of this area of ops, the R1 as well, although this rifle is still used by the SAP.

[wilhelm]

Some pages concerning the ZA-35 based on an a Rooikat chassis. From Armed Forces Nov 1991. The last picture shows the system based on a T-72 chassis. Apparently the Polish Loara metamorphisised from this derivative. There was also to be a missile derivative mounting the SAHV, from whence todays Umkhonto missile was born.

[Rudolph]

^^^

Thanks will read later.

[wilhelm]

Read this on

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=458&Itemid=241

Anybody know any more on this?

Upgrading Umkhonto: Denel is developing an all-weather version (dubbed AWSAM, all weather surface-to-air missile) fitted with a radar seeker and booster for the SA Army’s Ground-based air defence system (GBADS) as part of Projects Protector and Outcome. This would suggest the Umkhonto VLS (vertical launch system) can accommodate missiles capable of medium ranges and area defence (the current Umkhonto-IR is, by contrast, a short-range point-defence system.

Also, does anyone have any further info or drawings on the Rooikat missile version of the 35mm AD I posted above?

[wilhelm]

Found some more on the project from

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=191&Itemid=260


Denel improves AWSAM missile http://www.defenceweb.co.za/templates/ja_teline_ii/images/pdf_button.png (http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=191) http://www.defenceweb.co.za/templates/ja_teline_ii/images/printButton.png (http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index2.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=191&pop=1&page=0&Itemid=260) http://www.defenceweb.co.za/templates/ja_teline_ii/images/emailButton.png (http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index2.php?option=com_content&task=emailform&id=191&itemid=260) Written by Leon Engelbrecht Monday, 12 May 2008 The state arms company upgrades its Umkhonto air defence missile. Denel, the state-owned arms company, has conceptualised a family of missiles based on its Umkhonto short-range air defence (SHORAD) system.This development will likely earn SA billions more in foreign exchange in the applied IT field.
The Umkhonto is in service with the South African and Finnish navies and is on order for the Swedish Navy and the SA Army.
The SA Army is to acquire the system as part of Project Protector, an as yet uncosted programme to give the Air Defence Artillery (ADA) a capability it has never previously enjoyed.
The ADA is taking a very SHORAD (VSHORAD) system into service as part of the R801 million Project Guardian, also known as phase one of the Ground-based Air Defence System (GBADS).
Protector, or GBADS 2, will see the Army get an extra punch. “It is the same missile that is used by the SA Navy, it will just be land-based,” says Denel Dynamics air defence missiles executive manager Machiel Oberholzer.
“We have signed an order for the study phase on the launcher. We have already quoted similar systems to other areas in the world,” Oberholzer adds.
“It is a good concept, six missiles in an ISO-container that can be mounted on any type of vehicle, that has a 360-degree engagement capability and a high kill probability due to is large [23kg] warhead.”
Umkhonto`s IT systems are countermeasure-resistant and do not need line-of-sight to the target to fire, but use lock-on-after-launch. It is modular and, therefore, easy to integrate into the military`s command and communications architecture or C4IRS (command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, reconnaissance and sensors).
Infrared boost
The current infrared-guided Umkhonto has a range of 12km. Oberholzer says this is being expanded as part of a pre-planned product improvement initiative. An extended-range infrared version is planned and will range up to 22km.
The company also plans to fit a radar seeker to Umkhonto to give the system the ability to shoot down aircraft and missiles in all weather conditions under the name AWSAM or all weather surface to air missile.
Oberholzer says the standard AWSAM will have a 20m range, while an extended range version fitted with a booster rocket (AWSAM-E) – will hit out up to 30km – which places it in the medium-range capability.
“This is the first time AWSAM is talked about,” Oberholzer says.
He adds that the advantage of such a family of missiles is that “you can have a cocktail of missiles in your launchers so you can engage with the most appropriate one to the threat. Infrared missiles are cheaper than radar and you don`t want to use an expensive missile to shoot down an easy target.”

[Ironsight06]

Also, does anyone have any further info or drawings on the Rooikat missile version of the 35mm AD I posted above?

SAHV launch boxes were mounted on the Cactus system. An option could be that they used that turret.

[GETSOME]

Hi all on the forum,

I have just joined the forum and thought I should introduce myself. My service was in the SA Navy as a dog handler and then Marine (21 years) in the Navy reserve. My main interest at this stage is Warrant Officer rank badges of Southern Africa including UDF, SADF, Homelands and SADC countries. I will follow this up with photos of some of the badges. Some can be viewed at:
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/560958944guIcuF?vhost=home-and-garden (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/560958944guIcuF?vhost=home-and-garden). I am desperatly looking for the Sergeant Magor: Quartermaster General badge (1980-1999) if anyone can help.
Welcome,nice collection you have there.p-)

[wilhelm]

SAHV launch boxes were mounted on the Cactus system. An option could be that they used that turret.

I have seen that before. The article I posted on the previous page talks though of a completely autonomous turret with tracking and guidance/designation functions.

The Cactus was a relatively fragile unit designed for road use or base protection. I think the Rooikat version would have been deployed in the field with the mechanised elements.

I imagine they simply replaced the 35mm cannon with launch boxes and perhaps fiddled with the tracking/guidance elements?

[bravo_four]

Some pics of the Tactical Intelligence Regiment doing "vuur en bevegging" for the Artillery Open Day recently.

[boerbull]

Some pics of the Tactical Intelligence Regiment doing "vuur en bevegging" for the Artillery Open Day recently.

What is a Tactical Intelligence Regiment? Is it something like a reccon unit and why is it on a Artillery Open Day?

[bravo_four]

Indeed the Tactical Intelligence Regiment functions much like a recon unit. They participated in the Artillery Open Day due to a number of reasons but possibly the best is that they have close ties with the current artillery regiments, they also share training grounds and the Tact Int Reg also share knowledge with artillery OPs and similar types such as counter battery intel.

Hope that helps?

[exT70]

What is a Tactical Intelligence Regiment? Is it something like a reccon unit and why is it on a Artillery Open Day?

No, not a recon unit as such, but a military intelligence unit, tasked with battlefield intelligence, surveillance, ops info, tactical info and to a certain extent counter int. A recon unit's tasks, as would be understood in the rest of the world, is supposed to be done in the SANDF by the Reconnaisance Platoon, part of Support Coy in the infantry setup.

[AtK]

http://lh5.ggpht.com/rsaschmidt/SPWtd0gZNmE/AAAAAAAAAIo/ZZWHyh7B9ww/s144-c/MYEFFORTS.jpg (http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/rsaschmidt/MYEFFORTS?authkey=0Tbcj1vChTM)
Been meaning to post this for sometime. First firing of the Milan 3 ADT in the SANDF.

[GETSOME]

Some pics of the Tactical Intelligence Regiment doing "vuur en bevegging" for the Artillery Open Day recently.

Thats ,"fire and movement " for those that dont speak Afrikaans.p-)
More,more pics please.
Have anymore info on their training?

[exT70]

What is a Tactical Intelligence Regiment? Is it something like a reccon unit

The concept behind the Tactical Intelligence Regiment is described as follows:
· battlefield surveillance
· co-ordination of info
· ops security
· tactical questioning
· ops communication

Their functions are as follows:
· battlefield surveillance
· tactical collection
· collation of info
· OPSEC
· OPCOM

Their duties theoretically takes place in the area between FLOT and rear En Ech.

[exT70]

Thats ,"fire and movement " for those that dont speak Afrikaans.p-)
More,more pics please.
Have anymore info on their training?

Should they be making use of their standard Second Phase training, it means that they screwed up, as they are not a fighting unit, but an int unit ("Snuffeltiffies" used to be the old term). Should they be observed and make contact with the enemy, they can't do their job and failed in their mission to supply the higher HQ with direct battlefield info. In the Angolan bushwar their predecessors' duties mostly effectively entailed searching the dead for int material (not a nice job) and low level interrogation.

What I love about the pics are the lack of use of helmets......

[GETSOME]

Should they be making use of their standard Second Phase training, it means that they screwed up, as they are not a fighting unit, but an int unit ("Snuffeltiffies" used to be the old term). Should they be observed and make contact with the enemy, they can't do their job and failed in their mission to supply the higher HQ with direct battlefield info. In the Angolan bushwar their predecessors' duties mostly effectively entailed searching the dead for int material (not a nice job) and low level interrogation.

What I love about the pics are the lack of use of helmets......
...or even a bush hat.p-)

[GETSOME]

Should they be making use of their standard Second Phase training, it means that they screwed up, as they are not a fighting unit, but an int unit ("Snuffeltiffies" used to be the old term). Should they be observed and make contact with the enemy, they can't do their job and failed in their mission to supply the higher HQ with direct battlefield info. In the Angolan bushwar their predecessors' duties mostly effectively entailed searching the dead for int material (not a nice job) and low level interrogation.

What I love about the pics are the lack of use of helmets......
ie the old rope tied to the body trickp-)

[Snake Doctor]

Anyone know anything about the cammo battlejackets? I have heard of them, but never seen one. Who are the Units that are hogging them all besides these Tactical Intelligence fellows.. I assume they are the same as the old battle jackets, but just in cammo? Still one of the best webbing systems around IMHO.

[exT70]

Anyone know anything about the cammo battlejackets? I have heard of them, but never seen one. Who are the Units that are hogging them all besides these Tactical Intelligence fellows.. I assume they are the same as the old battle jackets, but just in cammo? Still one of the best webbing systems around IMHO.

Now tell that to the SANDF!!
Photographs are not clear, but I don't think they are wearing a cammo version of the Pat83 battlejacket. There are noises being made that the battlejacket is to be replaced with a beltkit-type system. Despite the Pat 83 being proven by international research to be supperior to most other systems around, guess why the change? Pat 83 not ideal for para type work, so we must all change! Secondry reason is the fact that Pat 83 can't be configured to specific user's needs, which is a fair critisism, but easily remedied with already internationally available molle type systems (even already available in SANDF cammo pattern).
Why would Int be wearing experimental or new type cammos? Same reason as the medics (SAMS) doing the practical tests for new boots, storemen and other REMF's always having first dibs at all new kit meant for rifleman etc. Which would explain why boots in SANDF has been a mess since browns/nutria got replaced and most of my troops even to today not being issued with items as simple as a raincoats/rainsuits (though I've never seen a storeman without one).

[Snake Doctor]

Yup they are cammo pattern, if you download the pics and have a close look you can see it quite clearly. It seems to be the '83 pattern or something very simillar. Most intriguing... As for your other comments exT70, dont get me started... :roll: I wear Para boots that I scrounged..my best peice of kit that I own !! See the attached pic below I found whilst trolling the web with too much time on my hands. 83 Pattern battle jacket in US ACU cammo. Was on a Swiss airsoft website (yes I know, airsofters... :| ) Apparently they currently have no stock, price about 80 Swiss Francs. I thought I had seen it all until this....


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=601&pictureid=6930

[exT70]

Yup they are cammo pattern, if you download the pics and have a close look you can see it quite clearly. It seems to be the '83 pattern or something very simillar. Most intriguing... As for your other comments exT70, dont get me started... :roll: I wear Para boots that I scrounged..my best peice of kit that I own !! See the attached pic below I found whilst trolling the web with too much time on my hands. 83 Pattern battle jacket in US ACU cammo. Was on a Swiss airsoft website (yes I know, airsofters... :| ) Apparently they currently have no stock, price about 80 Swiss Francs. I thought I had seen it all until this....

Re pat 83, see pic below from earlier in this thread.
Have pic somewhere of pat83 in molle system.
Boots. Still have couple of pairs of old SADF boots left. New boots just simply don't last (have seen troops go through 3 pairs during basics alone)and don't give same level of protection. New ones shown at ICCC last year does not promise anything better.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=58094&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1223020575 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=58094&d=1223020575)

[playtym]

Have pic somewhere of pat83 in molle system.

Is this the one? (http://www.practicaltactical.net/prostores/servlet/-strse-62/Practical-Tactical-PT-dsh-03-MESA/Detail)


There are more pics at Militarymorons.com (http://www.militarymorons.com/equipment/2ndline1.html)

[bravo_four]

I took some video footage of the Artillery Open Day demo...its not the best but what the hell...


http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/=fXWU0PzdH7Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXWU0PzdH7Y

[DanteXavier]

A few shots I've found on Airliners.net and Flickr recently:

C-130:
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2129/1406878ab3.jpg
Westland Lynx:
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/5848/1407437br7.jpg
Oryx:
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/8981/2883955437f7a3d013f5oyj9.jpg
Gripen and, lastly, a shot of the Rooivalk:
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/8393/28924566466bbdd91a24oad7.jpg
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6509/2878966428a5182dccfdohx0.jpg

[GETSOME]

Now tell that to the SANDF!!
Photographs are not clear, but I don't think they are wearing a cammo version of the Pat83 battlejacket. There are noises being made that the battlejacket is to be replaced with a beltkit-type system. Despite the Pat 83 being proven by international research to be supperior to most other systems around, guess why the change? Pat 83 not ideal for para type work, so we must all change! Secondry reason is the fact that Pat 83 can't be configured to specific user's needs, which is a fair critisism, but easily remedied with already internationally available molle type systems (even already available in SANDF cammo pattern).
Why would Int be wearing experimental or new type cammos? Same reason as the medics (SAMS) doing the practical tests for new boots, storemen and other REMF's always having first dibs at all new kit meant for rifleman etc. Which would explain why boots in SANDF has been a mess since browns/nutria got replaced and most of my troops even to today not being issued with items as simple as a raincoats/rainsuits (though I've never seen a storeman without one).
Jesus,everyone goes forward, the SANDF goes backwards.
Why not develop something for the parabats,instead of changing a well proven system?:roll:

[GETSOME]

Is this the one? (http://www.practicaltactical.net/prostores/servlet/-strse-62/Practical-Tactical-PT-dsh-03-MESA/Detail)


There are more pics at Militarymorons.com (http://www.militarymorons.com/equipment/2ndline1.html)
Interesting take on a great system,much better.
Hadnt seen that before ,thanks for posting.p-)

[AtK]

Anyone know anything about the cammo battlejackets? I have heard of them, but never seen one. Who are the Units that are hogging them all besides these Tactical Intelligence fellows.. I assume they are the same as the old battle jackets, but just in cammo? Still one of the best webbing systems around IMHO.

These cammo battlejackets must still be under evaluation. Nothing issued to units as yet.

[Serbelius]

With regards to the "new" battlejacket/webbing what one wants to call it. The jacket were issued to unit deploying on the UN missions to the DRC(UN Mandate) and were a project were civilian input were valued more than the actual guys going to use it as the came to 2SAI Bn a few weeks before mobilization in Bloem to test the guys reaction on the kitt. The system were called CAPES which stood for clothingand personal equipment system. 4 choices were giving 2 with internal frames and 2 with external frames. 3 of them were good to exellent with one lacking in all departmens poor construction(understandable were a test model) heavy and lastly totally unpractical and difficult to assemble aka CAPES. The rucksacs were heavy with even a heavier frame than the old 83's frame and were jokingly refer to that if that were the bags for the guys at least they have something to help with if the vehicles got stuck(not knowing that were to be the prefered vest and rucksac system)
The vest were uncomfortable certain pouches difficult to reach and prone to breakages.

[TRAKHENER]

Great Picture of the best Bushfighters in the world .. This is a Capetown Highlander Thanks

[exT70]

Great Picture of the best Bushfighters in the world .. This is a Capetown Highlander Thanks
Which pic are you referring to?
Which CT Highlander?

[GETSOME]

With regards to the "new" battlejacket/webbing what one wants to call it. The jacket were issued to unit deploying on the UN missions to the DRC(UN Mandate) and were a project were civilian input were valued more than the actual guys going to use it as the came to 2SAI Bn a few weeks before mobilization in Bloem to test the guys reaction on the kitt. The system were called CAPES which stood for clothingand personal equipment system. 4 choices were giving 2 with internal frames and 2 with external frames. 3 of them were good to exellent with one lacking in all departmens poor construction(understandable were a test model) heavy and lastly totally unpractical and difficult to assemble aka CAPES. The rucksacs were heavy with even a heavier frame than the old 83's frame and were jokingly refer to that if that were the bags for the guys at least they have something to help with if the vehicles got stuck(not knowing that were to be the prefered vest and rucksac system)
The vest were uncomfortable certain pouches difficult to reach and prone to breakages.
Do you have any pics,of the new kit?

[SilverBoy]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=145311

This is the first time I've heard of our troops being in combat, in my lifetime that is.

Any other news about the events?

[Serbelius]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=145311

This is the first time I've heard of our troops being in combat, in my lifetime that is.

Any other news about the events?
2003/4 Troops from 2 Sai Bn were in contact with rebel/militia groups.Although not long or desicive battles still they were there, unconfirmed though were that in 2 instances the SA forces rather withdrawn than getting more involved(were the detached infantry unit from 14 SAI Bn)

[AtK]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=145311

This is the first time I've heard of our troops being in combat, in my lifetime that is.

Any other news about the events?

The SANDF has been in a combat scenario ever since 1994.

[DanteXavier]

A shot of South African Peacekeepers in the Congo taken in late October:

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9450/83554564oe9.jpg

[Maktab]

I see they finally got issued blue berets instead of those ridiculous baseball caps they used to wear. It's a welcome change.

It's an encouraging sign that the violence seems to have died down. As good as 121 Battalion may be, they are too lightly armoured and outnumbered compared to Nkunda's rebel forces and they would have found it difficult to defend Goma without taking heavy losses.

[Serbelius]

I see they finally got issued blue berets instead of those ridiculous baseball caps they used to wear. It's a welcome change.

It's an encouraging sign that the violence seems to have died down. As good as 121 Battalion may be, they are too lightly armoured and outnumbered compared to Nkunda's rebel forces and they would have found it difficult to defend Goma without taking heavy losses.


All UN Peacekkeping forces were issued berets(they as a rule only worn on ceremonial duties and on base.) As for the "good as 121 Battalion may be"
they are a Bn know more as "want 2 run" than anything else as i cannot foresee that they would have got better "post-border war".

[Snake Doctor]

Never mind the baseball caps, I wish there was a Unit that would travel the country giving instructions on: 'How to wear the beret correctly.." :bash:

[GETSOME]

Never mind the baseball caps, I wish there was a Unit that would travel the country giving instructions on: 'How to wear the beret correctly.." :bash:
:) It was a skill and hours of work to shape a beret and we all tried to wear it the right way,or have a new ass torn by the RSM.:)

[The Saint]

Just re-found these pictures, taken during Exercise Geranium in 1997 : members of Pathfinder Platoon of the 44th Para Bde (I was given the pics by one of these guys) :

http://i76.servimg.com/u/f76/10/06/91/80/pathfi10.jpg


http://i76.servimg.com/u/f76/10/06/91/80/pathfi11.jpg

[Maktab]

Nice pics.

All UN Peacekkeping forces were issued berets(they as a rule only worn on ceremonial duties and on base.) As for the "good as 121 Battalion may be"
they are a Bn know more as "want 2 run" than anything else as i cannot foresee that they would have got better "post-border war".

Interesting. Have they been issued those berets for the duration of our involvement in MONUC? This is the first time I've seen SANDF troops wearing them, with even on-base and ceremonial parade photos showing the use of the caps in previous years. And is that rule on berets a UN rule or our own? It does seem a bit silly.

As for 121 Batt., I mentioned only what I had heard elsewhere. I have no personal experience of the unit's effectiveness, so I'll take your word for it.

And many SANDF soldiers could do not only with some shouted lessons on the wearing of berets, but also on general presentation. If appearance is an outward manifestation of quality, the SANDF still has a long way to go before it comes close to the professionalism of western militaries.

[GETSOME]

Does the SANDF still have a pathfinder company?

[baboon6]

Does the SANDF still have a pathfinder company?

Pathfinder Platoon now I believe.

[Maktab]

They're still active; I saw them demonstrate a HAHO jump at Air Force Day back in February.

The Parabats are said to be much improved these days since Boleas from what I've heard. I can't remember where I read it, but I saw a post written by Brigadier-General McGill-Alexander (of the Cassinga thesis fame and more) a couple years ago when he stated that he had been called in by the Army as a consultant to improve the quality of 44 Para Rgmt and described some of the improvements he had seen. I just hope that trend has continued.

[wilhelm]

Okapi 6x6. Anybody know what numbers, if any, were taken in by the SADF?

[mind_abuse]

Okapi 6x6. Anybody know what numbers, if any, were taken in by the SADF?

"The Okapi command post vehicle is now being offered by Denel Land Systems as part of a complete artillery system which also includes the G6 155 mm/45 calibre 6 × 6 self-propelled gun, ammunition support vehicles and fire-control system as well as long-range reconnaissance systems.In mid-2001 it was stated that the South African Army had taken delivery of nine mobile electronic warfare systems as part of an extensive upgrade of its electronic warfare capability." (from http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/jaa/jaa_0892.html)
So, at least 9?


wilhelm, have you found any images of that missile Rooikat? All info I could find was "SAHV missiles can be fitted to the Self-Propelled Surface-to Air Missile (SPSAM) vehicle. The three elements of the
self-propelled air defence system are the twin 35 mm gun vehicle, the SPSAM vehicle and surveillance radar. The gun
and SAM vehicles use the same stretched ROOIKAT hull and the same turret, radar and electro-optical fire-control
system. The SPSAM system has a pair of missile canister launchers on each side of the turret." The vehicle was named ZA-HVM, some photos probably can be found in "Jane's Land based surface to air weapons, 1998 - 1999, p. 150." and "Jane's strategic weapon systems, septembar 1998" + some data (http://www.pmulcahy.com/wheeled_spaa/south_african_wspaa.htm)...

Another question refers to this post (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1312590&postcount=5): what about that T-72 chassis? Was any number of them officially ordered anywhere by SADF? or something else?

And as any annoying newbie, can't help pelting you the last question: have you got any information about Bismark prototype?

Thank you.

[blastmaster]

Wilhelm,

As far as the Okapi is concerned, my information is very similar to what "Mind Abuse" has come up with. What I do know is that during the development phase of Okapi there was serious concern about its suspension system because there was no useful load transfer between the axles when crossing obstacles and ditches with the result that individual axles and suspensions were severely overloaded under certain conditions.

As far as the number of Okapis in service with the SANDF is concerned concerned, why not try Armscor who originally managed the development programme and I am sure they will be able to give you this info.

See how far you get and if you run into a dead end I may be able to give you some info with regards to whom you can contact to get this info.

[wilhelm]

"The Okapi command post vehicle is now being offered by Denel Land Systems as part of a complete artillery system which also includes the G6 155 mm/45 calibre 6 × 6 self-propelled gun, ammunition support vehicles and fire-control system as well as long-range reconnaissance systems.In mid-2001 it was stated that the South African Army had taken delivery of nine mobile electronic warfare systems as part of an extensive upgrade of its electronic warfare capability." (from http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/jaa/jaa_0892.html)
So, at least 9?


wilhelm, have you found any images of that missile Rooikat? All info I could find was "SAHV missiles can be fitted to the Self-Propelled Surface-to Air Missile (SPSAM) vehicle. The three elements of the
self-propelled air defence system are the twin 35 mm gun vehicle, the SPSAM vehicle and surveillance radar. The gun
and SAM vehicles use the same stretched ROOIKAT hull and the same turret, radar and electro-optical fire-control
system. The SPSAM system has a pair of missile canister launchers on each side of the turret." The vehicle was named ZA-HVM, some photos probably can be found in "Jane's Land based surface to air weapons, 1998 - 1999, p. 150." and "Jane's strategic weapon systems, septembar 1998" + some data (http://www.pmulcahy.com/wheeled_spaa/south_african_wspaa.htm)...

Another question refers to this post (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1312590&postcount=5): what about that T-72 chassis? Was any number of them officially ordered anywhere by SADF? or something else?

And as any annoying newbie, can't help pelting you the last question: have you got any information about Bismark prototype?

Thank you.

Welcome aboard MInd Abuse, and thanks for the info.

Unfortunately I have no pictures of the air defence missile variant on the Rooikat chassis, just the info on the twin 35mm SPAAD I posted earlier.. The T-72 chassis may be just a drawing, although I do know that South Africa did buy some T-72 chassis from Poland in the late 1980's/early 1990's timeframe. I would imagine that they used one of those Polish T-72 chassis.

It would be most interesting to see some of these rare vehicles, whether in drawing or photo format. Blastmaster, do you hear me?p-)

[wilhelm]

Wilhelm,

As far as the Okapi is concerned, my information is very similar to what "Mind Abuse" has come up with. What I do know is that during the development phase of Okapi there was serious concern about its suspension system because there was no useful load transfer between the axles when crossing obstacles and ditches with the result that individual axles and suspensions were severely overloaded under certain conditions.

As far as the number of Okapis in service with the SANDF is concerned concerned, why not try Armscor who originally managed the development programme and I am sure they will be able to give you this info.

See how far you get and if you run into a dead end I may be able to give you some info with regards to whom you can contact to get this info.

I believe that there was also the possibility that it was to be used as a mobile control post along with the RSA ballistic missile in it's mobile format on it's TEL?

Do you have any further info or images of the various Rooikat based project, such as the 35mm and missile AD variants, the single 35mm recce version with AT missiles, or the ICV version even?

C'mon Blastmaster, it's also time for one of your esoteric vehicle/project quizzes with photo. I quite enjoyed the last one....:)

[blastmaster]

Wilhelm,

What can you share with us wrt the SA ballistic missile and its carrier? That sounds an interesting one indeed..............................................!

[Piepalook]

Does any one know the whereabouts of Jan De Wet?

We have information that they were involved in a contact 5 days ago.
Apparently, US soldiers went looking for him 5 days ago.
The search was called off after 2 days due to heavy fighting.

We are getting conflicting information that he is alive but in a coma.

Other reports state that he is still MIA.

Should Jan still be alive it is imperative the we casevac him as soon as possible.

We cannot ask for help from the South African government as they have laws prohibiting South Africans from doing security work overseas.

Any information would be appreciated.

Thank you kindly.

[wilhelm]

Wilhelm,

What can you share with us wrt the SA ballistic missile and its carrier? That sounds an interesting one indeed..............................................!

Will post up some info once I've had a look at my library at home....

[frac1]

Wilhelm,

What can you share with us wrt the SA ballistic missile and its carrier? That sounds an interesting one indeed..............................................!

There is a book now available about the Nuclear Program by Al. J. Venter called How South Africa built six atom bombs.
I got 'n copy it is quite interesting. It's shows drawing of the TEL vehicle. The vehicle was called beestrok the project name was Wrinkle. According to the book they were about 17m long, by 2.8 m high this being the main vehicle, with the "cargo" it's height 4.48m. There was allegedly 2 being tested in 1988.
Regards

[prion]

Welcome aboard MInd Abuse, and thanks for the info.

Unfortunately I have no pictures of the air defence missile variant on the Rooikat chassis, just the info on the twin 35mm SPAAD I posted earlier.. The T-72 chassis may be just a drawing, although I do know that South Africa did buy some T-72 chassis from Poland in the late 1980's/early 1990's timeframe. I would imagine that they used one of those Polish T-72 chassis.

It would be most interesting to see some of these rare vehicles, whether in drawing or photo format. Blastmaster, do you hear me?p-)

Between us and the poles some ideas did gell. The PZR Loara was designed to carry either the RBS-23 BamS or the SAHV-3. It was based on the T-72(T-91 - Polish)


It never went into production.
Here is a pic of the Loara concept:

http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo303/prion_photos/PZRLoaraconcept-RBS-23BamSorSAHV-3m.jpg


The Air defense version ( missile ) on the Rooikat AFAIK(only one source) - only reached mock-up stage. Of the ZA-35 SPAAG only one was built.

[Ironsight06]

There is a book now available about the Nuclear Program by Al. J. Venter called How South Africa built six atom bombs.
I got 'n copy it is quite interesting. It's shows drawing of the TEL vehicle. The vehicle was called beestrok the project name was Wrinkle. According to the book they were about 17m long, by 2.8 m high this being the main vehicle, with the "cargo" it's height 4.48m. There was allegedly 2 being tested in 1988.
Regards
Might be related? (http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1810935#post1810935)

[mind_abuse]

No, it's thought to be Mechem Krokodil, one of early prototypes of Ratel Mk. 4 (at least, it's said so here (http://www.janes.com/extract/idr97/idr00029.html))

[prion]

Might be related? (http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1810935#post1810935)


The South-African Nuclear option was deployable by two methods :

1. SAAF High-Altitude or Lob-Toss.
2. RSA-3 Missile as can be found at Swartkops.

Here is some pics of the RSA

The TVC Assembly
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/8756/09135820af3.jpg


The Missile

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/8481/09135512hj6.jpg


Apart from that AFAIK the TEL system was born dead. With RSA-1,2,3 there was no need for a transportable system.If you look at the RSA system Logistics would have been a nightmare using a mobile launcher.

[blastmaster]

The mobile launcher referred to as "beestrok" was also referred to as "beeslorrie" and was moved around (often in off peak times and in darkness) with a tarpaulin to hide its structure and silhouette. Additionally it was "disguised" as a heavy mobile crane carrier in the guise of a development vehicle supposedly being developed by a large engineering concern in the Reef area.

It was subjected to testing at the test facility Gerotek where it was often stored beteen tests in a shed there away from prying eyes.

I can also recall an event where there was panic amongst the project team when it caught fire in the Wierda Park area near Pretoria whilst being moved between locations and after the fire was extinguished it was quickly removed before the public could get a good look at it and start asking awkward questions.

Did I hear anyone suggest there may have been an Israeli link in the development of this vehicle? Just wondering..................

And which automotive running gear did this vehicle use and where is it now? The "thick plottens".

[DanteXavier]

I don't know if this has been posted before, but here's a documentary showing South African peacekeepers in the Congo. The video is from 1998.

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/PNHcvxjJz7A

[HammockWarrior]

"Patria’s former CEO Jorma Wiitakorpi is arrested by Finland’s National Bureau of Investigation (NBI) on suspicion of industrial espionage, aggravated bribery and bribery in business operation. The Helsinki district court also remanded Veijo Vartiainen, the operative head of Patria’s Land & Armament unit, on suspicion of bribery in business operations and aggravated bribery. Wiitakorpi in particular remains both firm and public about his innocence, and both men have been released pending further proceedings."
http://newsroom.finland.fi/stt/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=20296&group=Business
Just when you think our former defense minister has enough to COPE with. Who bets this gets leaked to our extremely unbiased media before the next elections?

[mind_abuse]

The mobile launcher referred to as "beestrok" was also referred to as "beeslorrie" and was moved around (often in off peak times and in darkness) with a tarpaulin to hide its structure and silhouette. Additionally it was "disguised" as a heavy mobile crane carrier in the guise of a development vehicle supposedly being developed by a large engineering concern in the Reef area.

It was subjected to testing at the test facility Gerotek where it was often stored beteen tests in a shed there away from prying eyes.

Did I hear anyone suggest there may have been an Israeli link in the development of this vehicle? Just wondering..................

And which automotive running gear did this vehicle use and where is it now? The "thick plottens".

blastmaster, were there any additional vehicles? I'm asking 'cause Israeli "Jericho-2" is said to have 16 m long TEL and to be supported by three vehicles for command and communications, site survey, and weather. Nobody ever saw any photos.

[Snake Doctor]

Anyone know the full story about the little incident with the troops in jhb? Rather embarrassing footage on the news on telly last night..

Also does anyone have a decent image / jpeg of the new Warrant Officer rank structure with the new badges?
Thanks.

[AtK]

Anyone know the full story about the little incident with the troops in jhb? Rather embarrassing footage on the news on telly last night..

Also does anyone have a decent image / jpeg of the new Warrant Officer rank structure with the new badges?
Thanks.

This is the official bulletin from the SANDF site (www.dod.mil.za (http://www.dod.mil.za)).

http://www.dcc.mil.za/bulletins/Files/2008/61bulletin2008.pdf

[exT70]

Also does anyone have a decent image / jpeg of the new Warrant Officer rank structure with the new badges?
Thanks.

New WO rank structure is all BS, smoke and mirrors. Whatever official reason is being given, it is but a simple process of trying to increase the pay of senior warrants. Problem at present is/was that the "basic" pay structure (without years served and allowances) of all WO1's are the same (so ordinary RSM and SM of the SANDF gets same pay - theoretically). So the "new" system was created to cater for the senior warrants. And a number of them are retiring in the next year or so, so "they" have to look after themselves, as your pension pay is based on the last few of years service...

[AtK]

New WO rank structure is all BS, smoke and mirrors. Whatever official reason is being given, it is but a simple process of trying to increase the pay of senior warrants. Problem at present is/was that the "basic" pay structure (without years served and allowances) of all WO1's are the same (so ordinary RSM and SM of the SANDF gets same pay - theoretically). So the "new" system was created to cater for the senior warrants. And a number of them are retiring in the next year or so, so "they" have to look after themselves, as your pension pay is based on the last few of years service...


And how does your rather over the top response refer to a proper photo of the new ranks and rank structure.

[exT70]

And how does your rather over the top response refer to a proper photo of the new ranks and rank structure.

Would hardly describe my response as "over the top", though it obviously does not provide nor refers to a photo. What it however does do is inform the reader as to why, when there are other issues of greater importance, the SANDF is restructuring the WO ranks. Not a bad thing as such, though I think a better, cheaper, less complicated result would have been preferred.

[playtym]

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/917/attachmentty4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/3231/attachmentqo9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/8134/attachmentvf0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/3489/attachmentpc0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/782/attachmenteh4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/4971/attachmentux3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/8871/attachmentji8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/8905/attachmentjh2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/9285/attachmentjw3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6299/attachmentkr3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[playtym]

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/8113/attachmentdm0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/73/attachmentpo4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/7094/attachmentjz3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5117/attachmentzz6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/7553/attachmentrw0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/3821/attachmentqu0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/2866/attachmentcs8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/9503/attachmentej2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3138/attachmentgw9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6093/attachmentsa4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[GETSOME]

^^^^
You not in any of them ,are you?:)

[jklv]

Do they speak Spanish in Angola?

[cbreedon]

Portuguese

[Paul Bennett]

Love the camo. Where can a good fella like myself get some SA camouflage ?


The law in Sa currently makes it illegal for civilians to own the new SA camo's

[playtym]

I think they'd have trouble enforcing that law outside South Africa. p-)

[Paul Bennett]

I think they'd have trouble enforcing that law outside South Africa. p-)

The problem is not enforcing the the law it is gettting cammo's, as only millitary personel are issued and there is a big problem getting additional uniforms and kit

[Schad]

The MILAN Standard was deployed - whether operational shots were ever fired requires some investigation.

32 got a number of MBT kills with Milan...there are pics floating around...

[wilhelm]

32 got a number of MBT kills with Milan...there are pics floating around...

Can you give a pointer as where one can see them? I do know the Milan was deployed in theatre. The only ATGW kill photo's I've seen were with the Mongol, which was an early version of the ZT-3 fired from a Ratel ICV.