Bush: 'I am responsible'

[ed316]

Bush: Iraqi election 'watershed moment'

Accepts responsibility for invading after faulty intelligence



Programming Note: CNN's Anderson Cooper will report live from Iraq this week on the country's historic election. His reports will air at 10 p.m. ET.
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- On the eve of Iraq's historic election for a four-year parliament, President Bush on Wednesday praised U.S. efforts in Iraq to fight terrorism and to create a new Mideast democracy.
"We are living through a watershed moment in the story of freedom," Bush said during his fourth and final speech leading up to Thursday's vote.
"Iraqis will go to the polls to choose a government that will be the only constitutional democracy in the Arab world. Yet we need to remember that these elections are also a vital part of a broader strategy in protecting the American people against the threat of terrorism."
Bush also accepted responsibility for invading Iraq based on faulty intelligence.
"It is true that much of the intelligence turned out to be wrong. As president I am responsible for the decision to go into Iraq," Bush said. "And I'm also responsible for fixing what went wrong by reforming our intelligence capabilities. And we're doing just that."
Bush's address at the Woodrow Wilson Center in Washington follows a new CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll that indicates fewer Americans are opposed to the U.S.-led war there.
Forty-eight percent of respondents to the new poll said they thought it was a mistake to send U.S. troops to Iraq, as opposed to 54 percent of those polled last month. Fifty percent said it was not a mistake, compared to 45 percent last month. The president's approval rating is 42 percent -- up 4 percent from November. (Full story (http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/13/poll.speech/))
A successful election in Iraq on Thursday to establish the nation's first permanent, democratically elected government would do much to bolster the theme of Bush's speeches: that his administration's war is working. (Watch Iraqis getting out the vote -- 2:00 (javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/world/2005/12/14/raman.iraq.campaign.workers.cnn','2005/12/21');))
"We are in Iraq today because our goal has always been more than the removal of a brutal dictator. It is to leave a free and democratic Iraq in its place," Bush said.
Before the speech, Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nevada, said 41 Democratic senators had sent a letter to Bush "to show that we need to get things right in Iraq after these elections."
"The president has had a number of speeches -- three in number -- and he has still not focused on what needs to be done in convincing the American people and showing the American people what his plan is in Iraq," Reid said.
Sen. Jack Reed, D-Rhode Island, said the letter urges the Bush administration "to tell the leaders of all groups and political parties in Iraq that they need to make the compromises necessary to achieve the broad-based and sustainable political settlement that is necessary for defeating the insurgency."
"The president still has not stated how long his administration believes the (war) will take and how much it will cost in terms of funding and in terms of the commitment of American military and civilian personnel," Reed said.
In the poll, 49 percent of respondents said neither side is winning the war, 13 percent said the insurgents are winning and 36 percent said the United States is winning.
On Monday, speaking in Philadelphia, the cradle of the U.S. Constitution, Bush compared Iraq's struggles with American history.
"It took a four-year civil war and a century of struggle after that before the promise of our Declaration (of Independence) was extended to all Americans," Bush said. "It is important to keep this history in mind as we look at the progress of freedom and democracy in Iraq." (Transcript (http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/07/bush.transcript/index.html/))
The president unexpectedly took questions from the audience, including one from a woman who asked Bush how many Iraqi "civilians, military, police, insurgents, translators" had been killed in the war.
"I would say 30,000, more or less, have died as a result of the initial incursion and the ongoing violence against Iraqis," Bush said. "We've lost about 2,140 of our own troops in Iraq."
White House spokesman Scott McClellan later said Bush was basing his statement on media reports, "not an official government estimate."
About 160,000 American troops are in Iraq. The Pentagon says it hopes to reduce the number to 138,000 by the summer and 100,000 by the end of 2006.
During his speech December 7, Bush said the United States has succeeded in helping Iraq improve its economy and infrastructure -- which he called the "battle after the battle."
"Over the course of this war, we have learned that winning the battle for Iraqi cities is only the first step," Bush said. "We also have to win the battle after the battle by helping Iraqis consolidate their gains and keep the terrorists from returning." (Transcript (http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/07/bush.transcript/))
And during his first speech of the series, on November 30, Bush told students at the U.S. Naval Academy, "As Iraqi forces gain experience and the political process advances, we will be able to decrease our troop level in Iraq without losing our capability to defeat the terrorists." (Transcript (http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/30/bush.transcript1/index.html))
CNN's Sumi Das and Suzanne Malveaux contributed to this report.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

"It is true that much of the intelligence turned out to be wrong. As president I am responsible for the decision to go into Iraq," Bush said. "And I'm also responsible for fixing what went wrong by reforming our intelligence capabilities. And we're doing just that."

Sounds good to me..even though technically Congress (those who voted to authorize force) share in that responsibility. He's just stating the obvious...but time and distance are allowing the loosening of political damage control measures.

Of course those who are holding Bush's feet to the fire over Iraq must also give him reciprocal credit for effecting positive change there and in the region.

It's amazing what is taking place there. For decades there's been nothing - now suddenly there is all this change - Syria out of Lebanon, free(er) elections in Egypt, the Saudis actually doing something, elections in A-stan, real elections in Iraq. And even the insurgents in Iraq have made statements urging people to vote - and that they will not attack Iraqis during the election process (only Americans). We have dictated the terms of the fight - which is a major step towards getting where we all need to go, IMHO.

[California Joe]

What the hell else was he supposed to say at this point.

[ibstolidude]

What the hell else was he supposed to say at this point.
"I am not a crook!"
Hey, it almost worked for others!

Actually, he is making the right comments, overall. He is absorbing a good deal of the political momentum behind such negative allegations. He should have spoke sooner before the amount of momentum had built up.

[annihilation]

Of course those who are holding Bush's feet to the fire over Iraq must also give him reciprocal credit for effecting positive change there and in the region.


The middle east is still in an unstable position. Granted they are making the move to the right direction but it can be set back easily if things get mis-handled (comes to mind, iran and a quick pull out of iraq.),


Still think alot of these changes could have taken place with out the invasion of Iraq.

[BlackRain]

Take a page from Ronald Reagan's play book. It is Presidential to accept responsibility.

In October 1983, terrorists in Lebanon drove a truckload of explosives into a building housing American marines, killing 241. That December, a Defense Department commission prepared to release a report castigating officers in the chain of command for failing to safeguard their troops.

A copy was sent to President Reagan before its release. He read through it, David R. Gergen, then an aide, recalled, and with little discussion headed for the press room. "If there is to be blame," Mr. Reagan said before the assembled corps, "it properly rests here in this office and with this president. And I accept responsibility for the bad as well as the good."

[annihilation]

Take a page from Ronald Reagan's play book. It is Presidential to accept responsibility.

In October 1983, terrorists in Lebanon drove a truckload of explosives into a building housing American marines, killing 241. That December, a Defense Department commission prepared to release a report castigating officers in the chain of command for failing to safeguard their troops.

A copy was sent to President Reagan before its release. He read through it, David R. Gergen, then an aide, recalled, and with little discussion headed for the press room. "If there is to be blame," Mr. Reagan said before the assembled corps, "it properly rests here in this office and with this president. And I accept responsibility for the bad as well as the good."

That works well. But it only took 6 years for this guy to figure it out.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

That works well. But it only took 6 years for this guy to figure it out.

That's true enough. I don't know if that's just Bush's personality, or a function of the fact that the press is so openly hostile to this administration that results in the bunker mentality. I mean - they don't even bother to deal in facts any more (Rathergate et al) - I can hardly blame the guy for not giving them the least bit of meat to chew on.

[signatory]

what the heck is up with all this Bush going on the defensive as of late?

[Olybrius]

*
It's amazing what is taking place there. For decades there's been nothing - now suddenly there is all this change - Syria out of Lebanon, free(er) elections in Egypt, the Saudis actually doing something, elections in A-stan, real elections in Iraq. And even the insurgents in Iraq have made statements urging people to vote - and that they will not attack Iraqis during the election process (only Americans). We have dictated the terms of the fight - which is a major step towards getting where we all need to go, IMHO.

yeah amazing , 30000 deaths and ...a country still under strong insurrection 2 years later ...US soldiers dying every day...Iran with an elected extremist leader and waiting for nuclear weapons...Syria as a heaven for terrorism... terrorist attacks everywhere in the world ...OBL and Al qaeda still alive and well 4 years later...
without speaking of the US credibility which need huge pentagon propaganda operation to be improved...

so Bush admits some mistakes ...great

[annihilation]

what the heck is up with all this Bush going on the defensive as of late?

Because he has been ingoring it for the past 6 years and now he is backed in a corner.

[Kekkonen]

yeah amazing , 30000 deaths and ...a country still under strong insurrection 2 years later ...US soldiers dying every day...Iran with an elected extremist leader and waiting for nuclear weapons...Syria as a heaven for terrorism... terrorist attacks everywhere in the world ...OBL and Al qaeda still alive and well 4 years later...
without speaking of the US credibility which need huge pentagon propaganda operation to be improved...

so Bush admits some mistakes ...great

x2

I didn't feel afraid here in my safe part of the world before 9/11 2001. I am still not afraid of AQ et al but now I/we all get to know about the success of this "war on terror" due to new "anti-terror" laws etc. Thank you! I feel so much safer now.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

As he's admitted to launching an unprovoked war which has cost thousands of lives under false pretences maybe we should start warming up a cell for him in the Hague:)


I'm putting my nomex underwear on now

[ed316]

yeah amazing , 30000 deaths and ...a country still under strong insurrection 2 years later ...US soldiers dying every day...Iran with an elected extremist leader and waiting for nuclear weapons...Syria as a heaven for terrorism... terrorist attacks everywhere in the world ...OBL and Al qaeda still alive and well 4 years later...
without speaking of the US credibility which need huge pentagon propaganda operation to be improved...

so Bush admits some mistakes ...great


I guess Democracy is only for the privilige west and how many died to protect and bring democracy in the past 100 years? Iran is what it is because US let the EU 3 lead the negotiations...typical it going no where.

[ed316]

As he's admitted to launching an unprovoked war which has cost thousands of lives under false pretences maybe we should start warming up a cell for him in the Hague:)


I'm putting my nomex underwear on now

Who would even dare to indicte a US president. The west you live in was molded by Uncle Sam

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I guess Democracy is only for the privilige west and how many died to protect and bring democracy in the past 100 years? Iran is what it is because US let the EU 3 lead the negotiations...typical it going no where.

This is OT but you could equally argue that Iran is the way it is now because in the 1950s the US/UK deposed a popular leader (Mosaddeq), and installed and maintained a brutal despot (the Shah) which directly led to the islamic revolution. The US in particular then backed Saddam Husseins Iraq when they invaded Iran. The rest is history as they say.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Who would even dare to indicte a US president. The west you live in was molded by Uncle Sam
But the world we live in now is being shaped by all kinds of forces beyond the control of any one nation. I wouldn't place bets on the US still being as powerful in say 20 years time as it has been over the last 50 years.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but doesn't Bush represent a strand of American conservative ideology which places great emphasis on personal responsibility for (and taking the consequences of) one's actions?

IIRC here in the UK you can be done for manslaughter if you bring about someone's death by negligence. I think charges of corporate manslaughter can also be brought as well in the UK but I have no idea whether that kind of thing applies in the US.

[Alpha13]

Excellent, he admits that it is his fault, now the question is what will be a just punishment in this situation? For example, if a person is not caught stealing and no one catches them, then its ok. But if they admit that they stole (and used up all the money) they will get punished (maybe not as severely if he was caught). So, we have a situation where Bush says its his fault that this war happened because of faulty intelligence, now its time for legal legislature to bring about appropriate punishment for this.

[annihilation]

I guess Democracy is only for the privilige west and how many died to protect and bring democracy in the past 100 years? Iran is what it is because US let the EU 3 lead the negotiations...typical it going no where.

Who said it was the privilige few? Why do WE have to travel to another nation, shed our blood and or hard earn money (300+ billion) for the democracy for another nation's people? (don't even try to bring up WW2, as thats different).

The "privilge" fought for their freedom and democracy, not have it handed to them.

Lets be honest. The war in Iraq was not to bring democracy to Iraq. IT was first to find and stop WMD and then terrorism. Then when it all failed, then it was bring democracy.

[ed316]

But the world we live in now is being shaped by all kinds of forces beyond the control of any one nation. I wouldn't place bets on the US still being as powerful in say 20 years time as it has been over the last 50 years. no one thought the Us was much before WW2 either only time will tell. China can't be a democracy and capitalist at the same time. It's too big. So your Commie uncle might be big and dominate but can he maintain the obedience of his people when the gap between rich and poor is wider every year more then the US?

[annihilation]

As he's admitted to launching an unprovoked war which has cost thousands of lives under false pretences maybe we should start warming up a cell for him in the Hague:)


I'm putting my nomex underwear on now

When will people understand this war was clean in the way it was down. Sure it was misguided and wrong, but he did go down all the proper roads with the congress and the UN to get it to happen. He will not be prosecuted for it.

[Freibier]

So it's official, your president is a war criminal.
And if Tookie had to go for 4 deaths, what are we gonna do with bushy and the blood of tens of thousands on his hands?
What about the victims? ;)
Of course with your double standards, you'll find a cheap excuse
at least 2sheds will ;)

[Superking]

And here i was thinking Saddam was the war criminal??

Silly me, must not have taken my proper pills today....

[a_very_ex_STAB]

no one thought the Us was much before WW2 either only time will tell. China can't be a democracy and capitalist at the same time. It's too big. So your Commie uncle might be big and dominate but can he maintain the obedience of his people when the gap between rich and poor is wider every year more then the US?

You see that's why I have a hard time taking a lot of Americans on here seriously. You act like 13 year olds when you see an alternative opinion. Everyone who disagrees with you is a communist. Yeah right. Most of you wouldn't know a commie if a Soviet era Spetznaz did a HALO drop on your heads. Why would I care about the future ability of the Chinese government to control its people???? I'm in fecking Manchester:roll:

[annihilation]

So it's official, your president is a war criminal.
And if Tookie had to go for 4 deaths, what are we gonna do with bushy and the blood of tens of thousands on his hands?
What about the victims? ;)
Of course with your double standards, you'll find a cheap excuse
at least 2sheds will ;)

Sorry no war criminal, definitly an asswhole and an idiot, but no war criminal.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

And here i was thinking Saddam was the war criminal??

Silly me, must not have taken my proper pills today....

Yeah but he's already in his cell lined up for the chop isn't he.

[etlamatey]

Yeah but he's already in his cell lined up for the chop isn't he.

Stupid boy, talking about the chop. Do you want a bunch of anti-death-penalty folks to stone your house today evening?

[Superking]

And it´s a good thing that the UN finally caught him.

[ed316]

You see that's why I have a hard time taking a lot of Americans on here seriously. You act like 13 year olds when you see an alternative opinion. Everyone who disagrees with you is a communist. Yeah right. Most of you wouldn't know a commie if a Soviet era Spetznaz did a HALO drop on your heads. Why would I care about the future ability of the Chinese government to control its people???? I'm in fecking Manchester:roll:

Like I can take liberal Europeans seriously either. Everything is always bad never good. You guys act like you know how the world should run. that's right liberals appose globalization. My bad:|

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Stupid boy, talking about the chop. Do you want a bunch of anti-death-penalty folks to stone your house today evening?

If they do I'll just set the missus on them. Then they'll change their minds about the need for the death penalty as a deterrent :)

[annihilation]

Like I can take liberal Europeans seriously either. Everything is always bad never good. You guys act like you know how the world should run. that's right liberals appose globalization. My bad:|

You make it sound like globalization is nothing but good. lol

[ed316]

You make it sound like globalization is nothing but good. lol

Then we should go back to the dark ages and believe the world is flat? Globallization is inevitable

[stephane from Paris]

It's not Bush who's responsible but his neocons friends who knew absolutly nothing about the muslims World. He's responsible to knows nothing about foreign countries and follow dangerous guys. The real problem isn't false prewar intel but that there goals were sci-fi in mid east situation.

Btw i heard that Egypt is a democracy and elections were normal!!!
Sorry but dozens of journalists and politicals opponents are in prisons, a few opposites politicals party are banned too (including the muslim brothers) from most of elections. Egypt is far from a real democracy and i don't thinks any maghreb and mid east countries (except Israel and perhaps now Lebanon) are true democracy in Western standards.
Marocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Algeria, Saudi arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Lybia and certainly Jordania are all false democracies (if not tyrannies for some) where free press and opinion aren't!
So when Bush speaks about democracy to muslims they see all these countries which for most are our allieds and they hear more the integrists voices.

[dangerdan87]

Wow...lots of ignorant people in this world these days.

The Military men and women did not die for an unjust cause. They CHOSE to be in the military and the military come with certain risks, such as death in the line of duty. Not every death was cause by firefights and snipers, some, were by accidents. And accidents DO happen.

If you went back 5 years ago and looked at Iraq, it was a dirty, ****ty place run by Sadam. Now look at it. Iraq now has a REAL military and even a SWAT. Iraq has been cleaned up. Feedom isn't free, wether it be forign or domestic.

People need to stop thinking politics. War isnt political... its war.

We'll do something about terrorisom against the US and our allies because its the right thing to do. But the US will eventually fall apart within, like any other great empire there ever was.

[annihilation]

Then we should go back to the dark ages and believe the world is flat? Globallization is inevitable

I didn't say we should go back to the dark ages or that its avoidable. Just saying that its not the great answer to all things. It will bring a new set of problems with all the benefits.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Like I can take liberal Europeans seriously either. Everything is always bad never good. You guys act like you know how the world should run. that's right liberals appose globalization. My bad:|
What makes you think I'm a liberal? Most people I know regard me as an old school Tory dinosaur. As for globalization I don't really care either way. It sure is putting lots of Yanks out of work though.

BTW you seem to have opened a can of worms with this thread.

[panzerjager]

You see that's why I have a hard time taking a lot of Americans on here seriously. You act like 13 year olds when you see an alternative opinion. Everyone who disagrees with you is a communist.

Humm, alternative opinion? Is that like the BBC calling suicide bombers activists?

And if "a lot of Americans" can't be taken seriously, why are you on this fourm? Just to troll?

[ed316]

What makes you think I'm a liberal? Most people I know regard me as an old school Tory dinosaur. As for globalization I don't really care either way. It sure is putting lots of Yanks out of work though.

BTW you seem to have opened a can of worms with this thread.

this thread is getting fun though:)

[.666 Caliber]

WOW!!! he actually apologized!? Hell has frozen over!

[BadKarma26]

Wow...lots of ignorant people in this world these days.

The Military men and women did not die for an unjust cause. They CHOSE to be in the military and the military come with certain risks, such as death in the line of duty. Not every death was cause by firefights and snipers, some, were by accidents. And accidents DO happen.

If you went back 5 years ago and looked at Iraq, it was a dirty, ****ty place run by Sadam. Now look at it. Iraq now has a REAL military and even a SWAT. Iraq has been cleaned up. Feedom isn't free, wether it be forign or domestic.

People need to stop thinking politics. War isnt political... its war.

We'll do something about terrorisom against the US and our allies because its the right thing to do. But the US will eventually fall apart within, like any other great empire there ever was.


you sir are a genius

[annihilation]

Wow...lots of ignorant people in this world these days.

The Military men and women did not die for an unjust cause. They CHOSE to be in the military and the military come with certain risks, such as death in the line of duty. Not every death was cause by firefights and snipers, some, were by accidents. And accidents DO happen.

If you went back 5 years ago and looked at Iraq, it was a dirty, ****ty place run by Sadam. Now look at it. Iraq now has a REAL military and even a SWAT. Iraq has been cleaned up. Feedom isn't free, wether it be forign or domestic.

People need to stop thinking politics. War isnt political... its war.

We'll do something about terrorisom against the US and our allies because its the right thing to do. But the US will eventually fall apart within, like any other great empire there ever was.


Just because you choose to join the military doesn't mean you don't fight unjust causes. You joined the military to defend your nation, help pay college, get experience, etc. But that doesn't mean a cause can't be unjust.

[etlamatey]

If they do I'll just set the missus on them. Then they'll change their minds about the need for the death penalty as a deterrent :)

rofl Lighten up guys!

[ElHombre]

WOW!!! he actually apologized!? Hell has frozen over!

don't worry. if his history is any indication, he doesn't actually mean it. he's just trying to buy time for iraq to settle down enough where he can pull the troops out without looking like a failure. i just wonder why everyone is crowing? bush's statements mean he's about two years behind in dealing with reality.

[pathfinder82]

Instead of this crap I would like to hear what his plan is for the first f-cking time. All this dumbass has to do is lay out a sound plan and he will get guys like myself off his back. Not alot to ask really, I just want a sound plan of action or a percieved plan of action. It doesnt take a genius to see that we are chasing our tails at this point.

If politicians would just level with their fellow americans at times like this things might be different.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Instead of this crap I would like to hear what his plan is for the first f-cking time. All this dumbass has to do is lay out a sound plan
Have you even listened to any of Bush's speeches?

Just because the going is slow and difficult doesn't mean there isn't a plan.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

yeah amazing , 30000 deaths and ...a country still under strong insurrection 2 years later ...US soldiers dying every day...Iran with an elected extremist leader and waiting for nuclear weapons...Syria as a heaven for terrorism... terrorist attacks everywhere in the world ...OBL and Al qaeda still alive and well 4 years later...
without speaking of the US credibility which need huge pentagon propaganda operation to be improved...

so Bush admits some mistakes ...great

More people die in a day in the US from drunk driving than soldiers die in Iraq. The "quagmire" hysteria has been tried, and has failed. If the numbers were really an issue, the media would be devoting as much time to trying to effect regime change at Anheuser-Bush or Seagram's. They have done their very best, but beyond heartfelt concern for the fallen, the war is not turning on the numbers involved.

Iran was run by extremists and was pursuing nukes before Bush. Syria was a haven for terrorism before Bush. Terrorists have attacked all over the world before Bush. How can you possibly equate any of these things to Bush? These things sound good when put in a paragraph together, but have nothing to do with the current administration.

Bush has not said that going into Iraq was a mistake, because it was not. He said the intel was flawed. Iraq is difficult, it is tiring, taxing, expensive, inconvenient, painful, tragic, and was the right thing to do. Bush said as much at the onset - I'm surprised that so few of you have had to make a choice between two really crappy alternatives. As time goes on, all we remember is the path that was taken, while the other sh*tty alternative is all but forgotten.

[annihilation]

More people die in a day in the US from drunk driving than soldiers die in Iraq. The "quagmire" hysteria has been tried, and has failed. If the numbers were really an issue, the media would be devoting as much time to trying to effect regime change at Anheuser-Bush or Seagram's. They have done their very best, but beyond heartfelt concern for the fallen, the war is not turning on the numbers involved.

Iran was run by extremists and was pursuing nukes before Bush. Syria was a haven for terrorism before Bush. Terrorists have attacked all over the world before Bush. How can you possibly equate any of these things to Bush? These things sound good when put in a paragraph together, but have nothing to do with the current administration.

Bush has not said that going into Iraq was a mistake, because it was not. He said the intel was flawed. Iraq is difficult, it is tiring, taxing, expensive, inconvenient, painful, tragic, and was the right thing to do. Bush said as much at the onset - I'm surprised that so few of you have had to make a choice between two really crappy alternatives. As time goes on, all we remember is the path that was taken, while the other sh*tty alternative is all but forgotten.

What was the shi*tty alternative?

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

...Bush has not said that going into Iraq was a mistake, because it was not. He said the intel was flawed. Iraq is difficult, it is tiring, taxing, expensive, inconvenient, painful, tragic, and was the right thing to do...

Outstanding! x10!

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

What was the shi*tty alternative?
How about letting Saddam stay in power, kick the UN inspectors out 6 months after the US military had gone home, and continue his pursuit of WMDs.

[ElHombre]

Bush has not said that going into Iraq was a mistake, because it was not.

if iraq turns into a client state of iran, that will be a bad result of the invasion.

if iran develops nukes and the main deterrent (the US military) is unable to respond because the army is stuck in iraq (and under threat of retaliation), that will be a result of the invasion.

if terrs learn how to de-stabilize a gov't in an unsecure country and then go out into the world to practice what they've learned, that will be a result of the invasion.

if the US is not able to respond to military threats for the next decade because we are having to rebuild the army, that will be a result of the invasion.

if we can't respond to NK, that will be a result of the invasion.

if a large number of friends of the administration make boatloads of money from US gov't contracts, that will be a result of the invasion.

if the world no longer respects the US for decent leadership, that will be a result of the invasion.

if osama bin laden dies of old age, that will be a result of the invasion.

if AQ strikes the US because we decided to spend $300 billion on iraq instead of securing our own borders, that will be a result of the invasion.

still think invading iraq was a good idea?

[moughoun]

More people die in a day in the US from drunk driving than soldiers die in Iraq. The "quagmire" hysteria has been tried, and has failed. If the numbers were really an issue, the media would be devoting as much time to trying to effect regime change at Anheuser-Bush or Seagram's. They have done their very best, but beyond heartfelt concern for the fallen, the war is not turning on the numbers involved.

Iran was run by extremists and was pursuing nukes before Bush. Syria was a haven for terrorism before Bush. Terrorists have attacked all over the world before Bush. How can you possibly equate any of these things to Bush? These things sound good when put in a paragraph together, but have nothing to do with the current administration.

Bush has not said that going into Iraq was a mistake, because it was not. He said the intel was flawed. Iraq is difficult, it is tiring, taxing, expensive, inconvenient, painful, tragic, and was the right thing to do. Bush said as much at the onset - I'm surprised that so few of you have had to make a choice between two really crappy alternatives. As time goes on, all we remember is the path that was taken, while the other sh*tty alternative is all but forgotten.
we don't know that yet, in 10 year's time if/when the US has left will we know, whether Iran as effectivly turned the Southern part of the Country into a mini Iran, after all large part's of it are already been run by fundamentalist council's who've imposed sharia law. whether the Sunni's survive, afterall alot of Shiites might like to see them disappear, the only real certainty is that the Kurd's are doing a pretty good job up North:|

[Deuterium]

As he's admitted to launching an unprovoked war which has cost thousands of lives under false pretences maybe we should start warming up a cell for him in the Hague:)


I'm putting my nomex underwear on now

Um if the intel was faulty how is that criminal? As someone who was on the ground in Iraq before the war gathering that intel I can tell you unequivocally that every Iraqi Commander and subordinate that I talked to believed Saddam had WMD, gave me maps to where they were stored and told me the plans of how he was going to use them. From where I was sitting and after the facts that we now know, my feelings are that the only liar in the whole matter is alresady sitting in a courtroom, just not in the Hague. Plus he'll get a far more serious sentance than what the Hague has to offer, unless somehow Arnie gets a seat on the court.

[Argyll]

What the hell else was he supposed to say at this point.

"Pass me the God Damned Jack Daniels Donald I am gittin shytfaced tonight"

[etlamatey]

Why do people think that 'War on Iraq' = 'War on terror"?

Saddam's excesses were nothing compared to the glooming spectre of worldwide Muslim extremism. Dont forget, Saddam's regime was a secular one, and he had managed to keep the extremists out of public life and power in Iraq. If anything, the fall of the Baathists has opened the door for Muslim extremists from all over to pour in.

The invasion of Iraq has *not* helped improve anything as far as Muslim extremism goes.

There are approx 1.2 billion muslims in eurasia and asia, stretching from the boundaries of Europe all the way to Indonesia. There is no way that we can curb the extremist trend militarily. If at all, it will be a mix of diplomatic and economic sytem of incentives which might help in containing rogue nations.

Of course, the second best alternative is to sit tight with our borders tightly guarded. The longer we stay in the Arabic morass, the more futile it gets.

[KB]

Finally...he says what a leader is supposed to say.

IMHO despite all the FUBAR decisions made by Rumsfeld and his armchair warriors, the situation in Iraq can still be retrieved. The more active involvement of the Sunnis in the elections and the reported signs of the fragmenting of the insurgency are hopeful signs.

[Olybrius]

More people die in a day in the US from drunk driving than soldiers die in Iraq. The "quagmire" hysteria has been tried, and has failed. If the numbers were really an issue, the media would be devoting as much time to trying to effect regime change at Anheuser-Bush or Seagram's. They have done their very best, but beyond heartfelt concern for the fallen, the war is not turning on the numbers involved.


With this way of thinking, the 3000 americans who died in New York in 2001 shouldn't count a lot...
Typical answer of those who try to minimize the events in Iraq ...
In fact it is completely different things which cannot be compared and it's not because there is a lot of drunken driver in US that the casualities in iraq don't count...what a joke

About Bush policy : the former iranian president , Khatami , was a moderate who preached dialogue with the west, only naive people believe than the recent toughening in Iran has nothing to do with the US invasion.
Worse and it's sad, the US difficulties in Iraq reassured countries like Iran and Syria.
Bush stupid policy after 9/11 involved a rejection and a hatred of America in all the muslim world which facilitated the work and the recruitment of terrorist organizations.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Typical answer of those who try to minimize the events in Iraq ...
And there are those that enlarge each difficulty in Iraq, making each problem or difficulty into "the" reason we shouldn't be in Iraq



Khatami , was a moderate who preached dialogue with the west
Khatami's power was limited. How many reformers were disqualified in the last election? Something on the order 1 or 2 thousand.


only naive people believe than the recent toughening in Iran has nothing to do with the US invasion.

So Iran wouldn't have sought the bomb if the US had not invaded Iraq?



Worse and it's sad, the US difficulties in Iraq reassured countries like Iran and Syria.
Really? We cut off the flow of oil from Iraq to Syria and now flank Iran on two sides.

[fatsack]

i like him

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Um if the intel was faulty how is that criminal? As someone who was on the ground in Iraq before the war gathering that intel I can tell you unequivocally that every Iraqi Commander and subordinate that I talked to believed Saddam had WMD, gave me maps to where they were stored and told me the plans of how he was going to use them. From where I was sitting and after the facts that we now know, my feelings are that the only liar in the whole matter is alresady sitting in a courtroom, just not in the Hague. Plus he'll get a far more serious sentance than what the Hague has to offer, unless somehow Arnie gets a seat on the court.

Sure faulty intel is one thing. Everyone can get things wrong. To err is human and all that. But intel also seems to have been deliberately made up too e.g. buying uranium from Niger and links between Iraq and Al Qaeda. How many Americans still believe Saddam was involved in 911?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Humm, alternative opinion? Is that like the BBC calling suicide bombers activists?

They also call them terrorists/suicide bombers/militants is that enough names for you


And if "a lot of Americans" can't be taken seriously, why are you on this fourm? Just to troll?

And if Europeans are commie liberals why are you on this forum? Just to troll?

[Olybrius]

And there are those that enlarge each difficulty in Iraq, making each problem or difficulty into "the" reason we shouldn't be in Iraq


Khatami's power was limited. How many reformers were disqualified in the last election? Something on the order 1 or 2 thousand.



So Iran wouldn't have sought the bomb if the US had not invaded Iraq?


Really? We cut off the flow of oil from Iraq to Syria and now flank Iran on two sides.

lol I know you don't like the truth but facts are facts, no need to enlarge , there are still strong insurrection , high level of violence and difficulties 2 years later , nobody cannot deny it , hear Bush ;). Extremists won the iranian elections, another fact and now , inside and outside ,they are all waiting you leave the new islamic republic of iraq ...

Since 2 years , confronted with reality , the reasons to justify the war did not cease changing while all the arguments of those who were opposed to the war remained valid.

[budgie]

Sounds good to me..even though technically Congress (those who voted to authorize force) share in that responsibility. He's just stating the obvious...but time and distance are allowing the loosening of political damage control measures..

Looks to me like he's just restating his position that the intelligence community was to blame, not his interpretation of the intelligence. IMO the question of whether Bush was lying or misled hasn't been resolved yet.


Of course those who are holding Bush's feet to the fire over Iraq must also give him reciprocal credit for effecting positive change there and in the region.

Kinda, yeah...


It's amazing what is taking place there. For decades there's been nothing - now suddenly there is all this change - Syria out of Lebanon, free(er) elections in Egypt, the Saudis actually doing something, elections in A-stan, real elections in Iraq. And even the insurgents in Iraq have made statements urging people to vote - and that they will not attack Iraqis during the election process (only Americans). We have dictated the terms of the fight - which is a major step towards getting where we all need to go, IMHO.

Syria: May have been shaken by the Iraq invasion but probably not as fearful of US attack as they are of sanctions after the Hariri killing

Egypt: A) Nothing to do with Iraq; B) a pretense by the government which still uses its police to detain opposition candidates and bar voters from making it to the polls

Saudi: Scared of home grown terrorists using the masses of poor (40% unemployment) to topple their own regime. Not at all fearful of US-forced regime change.

A-Stan: Good developments but separate from Iraq. The successes in Afghanistan result from the post 9/11 topling of the Taliban and would have gone ahead with or without regime change in Baghdad.

The Iraqi insurgents: Yup. Can't argue with you there.

And before anyone mentions Libya: The softening of Ghadaffi is the result of decades of sanctions and diplomatic work. Bush is no more responsible for that thaw than Reagan was for 'winning' the cold war. Both are Neocon myths.

[Count Lippe]

Egypt: A) Nothing to do with Iraq; B) a pretense by the government which still uses its police to detain opposition candidates and bar voters from making it to the polls

x2.
Egypt is allied with America...

[panzerjager]

And if Europeans are commie liberals why are you on this forum? Just to troll?

Nice deflection but I didn't call Euro's commie liberals. You got called on your B.S. and have no answer.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Nice deflection but I didn't call Euro's commie liberals. You got called on your B.S. and have no answer.
Congratulations then you're the first American on here who hasn't done that (apparently) but I suspect a search of your forum posts if I could be bothered to do it would soon put that right:)

As for being called. Called on what? I note that you did not address my earlier refutation of your allegation about the BBC using the term activists in relation to a terror attack (an issue which has already been laid to rest in another thread http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=65026&page=6).

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

lol I know you don't like the truth but facts are facts, no need to enlargeUnimpressive derision.


high level of violence and difficulties 2 years later Two years after the Invasion and we still haven't solved all the problems with Iraq's infrastructure and their political system. Must be failure then :roll



Extremists won the iranian elections
There never really was any doubt, considering the Guardian Council disqualified many of the reformers.
The idea that anything would be different had the US not invaded Iraq is unsupported.



islamic republic of iraq
A majority of Iraqis favor an Islamic Republic? I don't think any polls shows that.

[Belrick]

The key thing is, which you fail to realise (have you ever read a history book in your life?) is that the peaceful Iraqis that do want change towards democracy currently hold little military power and probably very little will to resist aggressors.
ie: Once the US forces withdraw the Islam extremists WILL take over.

[ElHombre]

Finally...he says what a leader is supposed to say.

more like he admits what everyone else realized over two years ago. personally, i try to set my standards for a president a little higher than, 'well, he's not a complete retard'. ;-)


IMHO despite all the FUBAR decisions made by Rumsfeld and his armchair warriors, the situation in Iraq can still be retrieved. The more active involvement of the Sunnis in the elections and the reported signs of the fragmenting of the insurgency are hopeful signs.

the real danger is what kind of gov't is iraq going to have? giving iran a friendly client state is not going to be considered an improvement. i haven't heard anything about that.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

have you ever read a history book in your life?
Actually I own and have read quite a few history books. Your point?


peaceful Iraqis that do want change towards democracy currently hold little military power and probably very little will to resist aggressors.
ie: Once the US forces withdraw the Islam extremists WILL take over.
Just speculation at this point really.

[NicNZ]

"We are living through a watershed moment in the story of freedom"

The story of freedom? Talk about mindless semantics. Well done, Mr Bush.