Toss the 9mm, bring back the Colt .45!

[Tommy Gunn]

WorldNetDaily (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28212)
Col. David Hackworth
An Open Letter to Members of Congress

Dear Honorable Congresspersons:

One of your vital tasks is to ensure that our warriors who hang it all out on the killing field are equipped with the right stuff.

I don't see that happening anytime soon unless you get enough straight skinny to counteract lobbyist propaganda and other military-industrial-congressional-complex spin. So to help provide more fair and balanced input, I plan to occasionally pass along some of the most commonly recurring bitches that come my way weekly in e-mails, letters, phone calls, etc., from our warriors.

Let's begin with the M-9, the 9 mm Beretta pistol – which our combat troops say is the first item that should be tossed into the junk pile!

"They're constantly breaking," reports a warrior from Afghanistan. "To make matters worse, the 9 mm round is like firing paint balls. I had to pump four rounds into an al-Qaida who was coming at me before he dropped. We're dealing with fanatical crazies out here who won't quit until they die for Allah."

The Beretta can only be used bone-dry. Even then, it jams repeatedly if sand or grit gets into moving parts. Its ball round has proven to be worse than the .38 Colt pistol slug used by the U.S. Army in the Philippines until it was retired almost a century ago in favor of the .45 ACP M-1911 pistol – fielded to stop the Moros, who ironically were also Islamic fanatics.

Now Special Forces and Light Infantry soldiers in Afghanistan want to bring back the century-old .45, and some elite Marine units already have. A Special Forces sergeant says, "The large-caliber, slow-moving .45 bullet puts the bad guys on the ground. Lighter stuff like the Beretta's 9 mm will, too – eventually – but on the battlefield you almost always have to double tap, and in close combat a gunfighter hasn't the time or the ammo to lose firing two rounds."

Rangers, Marines and most Special Ops troops are some of the other elite warriors in the U.S. military who carry personal firearms in combat while the brass look the other way. Quite a few choose to pack two purchased handguns. But the only Rangers who use the Beretta – even as backup – are those who can't afford to buy their own firearms, and they and the rest of these elite fighters unanimously agree that they "can't trust this fragile, unreliable sidearm."

Almost all the Rangers engaged in hand-to-hand combat during Op Anaconda packed their own personal sidearms. "When I ran out of ammo with my rifle, I pulled my pistol," a Ranger sergeant says. "It saved my life. I hit a number of enemy 30-40 yards away who went down immediately from my .45 rounds. With a Beretta, I wouldn't have made it because of the far-too-light 9 mm bullet, play in the action and its limited range."

In another fight, a Ranger fired several torso shots with a .45 pistol before his foe fell. "When we looked at the corpses, we found their mouths full of khat," he says. "It was like these guys were pumped up on PCP. With the Beretta, I'd have had to fire all 15 rounds and then thrown the pistol at this wild-eyed dude."

We went into Vietnam with a bad weapon, the M-16 rifle, which was responsible for killing thousands of our soldiers. It was a jammer, and if you have a jammed rifle in a firefight, you're dead. The M-16 was such a loser that some jungle-smart grunts refused to carry it and packed captured Soviet AK-47s instead.

What the M-16 was to Vietnam, the Beretta is to Afghanistan. And a soldier with no confidence in his weapon isn't the most motivated fighter in Death Valley.

"We're frustrated here that no one in Washington seems to have the slightest concern for our survival," writes a sergeant from Afghanistan. "It's a damn good thing that we have air superiority and so far haven't had many heavy fights."

Perhaps you congressional folks can figure out how to recycle some of the bucks we'll save from the Pentagon-zapped Crusader and get our combat troops a decent sidearm. This would surely relieve some of that frustration and, just by the way, keep our warriors alive.



I hope our military will order new 1911A1 .45 caliber pistols from Colt and just get rid of those 9mm pistols they are issueing now.

[Operation Ivy]

hmmmmm bring it back i wouldnt mind :D

[Tommy Gunn]

General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early 1900’s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping power of a firearm cartridge. His formula has withstood the test of time and validation from other studies and data related to stopping power.


You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power. Values over 55 have diminishing returns in that you don’t gain any significant increase in stopping power for the extra recoil and control you must cope with. Handgun cartridges that don’t make a value of at least 50, should not considered for self-defense. If the rating of your handgun cartridge is under 30, it only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop. Hatcher Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance. Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time.


Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating

.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1

.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7

.44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3

*.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8

.44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6

*.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5

.41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54

*.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80

10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3

10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1

.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4

.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4

.38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7

*.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7

**.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7

**.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5

.357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6

.357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2

9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3

9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9

.380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3

.32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1

.25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7

.22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2


* Jacketed hollow points will have the same rating as wad cutter bullets if the bullet hollow tip is greater than 1/2 of the caliber of the bullet.


* .357 Magnum ratings are taken from a firearm with a 3 inch barrel. Longer barrels will raise the rating of the round.

[Oxley]

Yeah, bring back the .45!

The MEU SOC 1911A2 the marines use is awesome.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Surely this is not just about 9mm Vs. .45ACP. The Beretta is not exactly the best 9mm on the block - the SiG series, Heckler & Koch, Walther & Glock to mention but a few are far superior IMO and would not have caused the problems the US Forces have experienced.

[UNDERDOG1]

My experience with firearms deal with IPSC and IDPA competition, I'm not qualified to speak about battlefield experiences, but, I must say that each and everyone using beretta sooner or later replace it with something else..and I'm from Italy, mind you.

The main problems with M9 (98fs civilian version, 9mmx21 here in Italy) are the locking block under the barrel, it break EVERY TIME at aprox. 5000 rds, some times sooner, also the dovetailed front sight is fragile and prone to break. The beretta is sensible to extreme cold and sand, and it's ergonomics is less than perfect (widht and grip angle). Magazine springs are sometimes defective also.

As for the 9mm versus 45 debate..I would prefer a 45 if the choice is restricted to ball rounds, the 9mm bring it's efficiency only in JHP mode.

I would not chose a 1911, however, there are far more modern firearms, and the 1911 would be very bad suited for the average trained soldier.

If given the choice, the SIG P220 would be superb, and more so the glock.

[MARK.TIGGER]

nope its a bring back the .45acp cause its traditional campaign again. Yet when the sugestion that they should adopt 6.8mm goes forward one of the arguments is the increase in recoil makes the training more difficult and .45acp doesn't have any more recoil than 9mm does it.
I wonder when the bring back .30-06 will start.

[DEMSPEC]

What about this pistol? (5.7x28mm)
http://www.fnmfg.com/products/fivesevn/fivesevn.jpghttp://www.fnhusa.com/contents/guns_525px/fn_hg_fiveseven.gifhttp://users.belgacom.net/jm.armes/FN-FS-ac/F-S_acc1.jpg
Advantages
The Five seveN Pistol is the companion weapon to the P90 sub-machine gun. The Five seveN is an easily concealable double action pistol with a larger, 20-round magazine capacity. A maximum use has been made of composite materials in the frame and slide to result in an extremely light weight, 1.7 pound, design. The 5.7x28mm ammunition has the capability of penetrating body armor at extended ranges. This new ammunition features a lead-free projectile to eliminate environmental concerns. NATO STANAG classification for the ammunition is currently underway.
http://www.pol-tec.de/FSN4.jpg

[mustamato]

nope its a bring back the .45acp cause its traditional campaign again. Yet when the sugestion that they should adopt 6.8mm goes forward one of the arguments is the increase in recoil makes the training more difficult and .45acp doesn't have any more recoil than 9mm does it.
I wonder when the bring back .30-06 will start.

Personally I just say, "bring back 7.62 x 25 Tokarev", would make a
wonderfull PDW/submachine gun round.

http://www.continet.com/montyipsc/bbppsh.jpg
Something like this but in a modern compact "MP7"-package...

[fantassin]

This need for something stronger than 9 mil seems to always come from the US and from no other army.

Any other army going the same direction at the moment ?

[mustamato]

This need for something stronger than 9 mil seems to always come from the US and from no other army.

Any other army going the same direction at the moment ?

Sweden will get a new submachine gun to replace the old m/45 when NATO
just first decides which caliber to standardize on. I would guess on MP7.

[DEMSPEC]

Yes the Dutch Military is planning to replace the Glock 17 for the FN Five Seven. And our CT team all ready got the FN P90.

[fantassin]

The NATO trials are I think finished and I think (could well be wrong) that it ended up in a status quo. No calibre was chosen over the other.

in France for example, the Bodyguards of the parachute squadron of the gendarmerie use the HK MP7 while the BG of the army's SF use the FN P90.

[Herrmannek]

I don't believe in that .45 vs 9mm debate..Pistol rounds never were never will be instant stopers... 9mm or .45 don't do enough damage to stop man instantly(vital point shots doesn't count because they are called vital not without reason :) ), even rifle rounds don't stop men in 90% probability range. Anger and adrenaline on both sides of the gun, those are the reasons for poor efectivnes of pistols in "mortal commbat".

[fantassin]

The ultimate argument to stop the debate is logistics: injecting a non-NATO standard round in the supply chain is a no-go from the start.

Better a 9 mil ammo box than no box at all.

[MARK.TIGGER]

true.
but the argument over calibres is going to come alive again soon with the 6.8mm comming in and 5.7mm rifles on trials.

[oldsoak]

Maybe its time to replace pistols with something more powerful. body armour is becoming readily availiable - having a .45 cal is not a lot of use if quite a bit of the enemy is covered with stuff thats proof against .45 cal unless you're good at getting snap head shots ( in which case any reliable pistol would do ). I'd be pretty suprised if the US hadnt been looking at this already.

[-Max-]

The NATO trials are I think finished and I think (could well be wrong) that it ended up in a status quo. No calibre was chosen over the other.

I have read in a Belgian newspaper two weeks ago that NATO choosed the 4,6x30mm over the 5,7x28mm for the PDW program. Despite the 5,7x28mm succeeded all the tests and was favored by many NATO members, Germany "blocked" the decision, to protect his national industry (H&K)... and finally NATO choosed the 4,6x30mm.

But more recently, i have read the opposite so i don't know what to believe... :roll:

[fantassin]

[quoteGermany "blocked" the decision, to protect his national industry (H&K).[/quote]

The MP7 having been purchased by the Bundeswehr as part of the "Infanterie der Zukunft" program, it's not surprising they'd like other countries to follow.

I'd prefer a HK UMP over the MP7 anyway.

[mustamato]

Germany "blocked" the decision, to protect his national industry (H&K).

The MP7 having been purchased by the Bundeswehr as part of the "Infanterie der Zukunft" program, it's not surprising they'd like other countries to follow.

I'd prefer a HK UMP over the MP7 anyway.

Yeah. I too (a 9 mm), because of:

http://www.hkpro.com/pdwstripped.jpg

vs.

http://www.hkpro.com/umpstrip.jpg

And also it´s easier (obviously) to have two magazines on the gun,
which would make for some fast reloads. And with folded stock, it´s
not that much longer than the MP7. Although there are of course
several advantages with the MP7 as well, mainly the round of course.

[maw]

i'm going to disagree with hack on this one. there's nothing wrong with 9mm, especially when you step up to 147 grains. the m9 is another story.
NSW have been using the 9mm m11 and have absolutely no complaints with relative stopping power, sure there's talk of moving over to .45 in the future, but its more of a grass is greener issue then any specific lacking in the m11.
i tried to raise my opinion here once before and got called an idiot, but here goes again: i believe in shot placement and follow up shots over the stopping power of a pistol round.
when i take a device called a pact timer (times the splits between shots), double taps on multiple targets are significantly faster with a 9mm than a 5" barrel .45.
with practice i can get the times down, but the keyword here is practice. it takes a lot of time to learn the techniques be able to rapidly shoot a .45.

is the us army going spend time making soldiers proficient with the .45 when that practise time could be spent becoming more proficient with their primary weapons (ie. being able to snap shoot out to 200 yards). instead of reviving the .45 vs 9mm rant, hack should be pushing for more range time and practise ammo for our troops.

[usa320]

Ya know the Baretta is a good gun for the most part- but the M1911 is tried and true. Its been used in every war with success since world war I. I think they should bring it back, add some new things to it- laser pointers, night sights, silencers... Add the modern gizmos of the Mk23 or M9 to the power of the M1911.

This also raises a question- what units use the Mk23 SpecOps pistol?

i rarely see it in any photos.

[NcDeuce]

Almost all the Rangers engaged in hand-to-hand combat during Op Anaconda packed their own personal sidearms. "When I ran out of ammo with my rifle, I pulled my pistol," a Ranger sergeant says. "It saved my life. I hit a number of enemy 30-40 yards away who went down immediately from my .45 rounds. With a Beretta, I wouldn't have made it because of the far-too-light 9 mm bullet, play in the action and its limited range."

In another fight, a Ranger fired several torso shots with a .45 pistol before his foe fell. "When we looked at the corpses, we found their mouths full of khat," he says. "It was like these guys were pumped up on PCP. With the Beretta, I'd have had to fire all 15 rounds and then thrown the pistol at this wild-eyed dude."

I prefer the.45 due to its better stopping power. I was told of an instance similar to the above khat example but where a man fired the Beretta. Same result. That khat must be some wild stuff.

[MARK.TIGGER]

one thing that struck me in Kuwait and Iraq when I saw the Berretta's the US military were carrying was how clapped out they looked. The British army Issues the Browning L9a1 and I have seen a few of them in as poor a state as the Berrettas.
The reports posted here are talking about troops carrying pistols as back ups. I would say I as an ordinary soldier have never been issued a pistol as a back up weapon.
The reintroduction of the .45 colt may be useful to troops like rangers but is the 45 not harder to master than a 9mm so are you then going to spend longer teaching ordinary troops to master the 45 and give them more time to practice?

[maw]

This also raises a question- what units use the Mk23 SpecOps pistol? i rarely see it in any photos.

due to problems with sand in the m11 magazine, nsw have been increasingly deploying with the mk23 in the sandbox.

[California Joe]

OK, everyone that's ever shot someone with a pistol in combat post here....The rest of you go back to watching Janets titty on your real player.

[Tommy Gunn]

The reintroduction of the .45 colt may be useful to troops like rangers but is the 45 not harder to master than a 9mm so are you then going to spend longer teaching ordinary troops to master the 45 and give them more time to practice?

It is not too much harder to become proficient with the larger calibers. Just takes a bit more time on the range is all.

[MARK.TIGGER]

It is not too much harder to become proficient with the larger calibers. Just takes a bit more time on the range is all.

well if the British Military is anything to go by that is very small to non- existant. And that won't please the accountants that run most militaries today as it will be expensive in ammo.

I am aware the US military has found and is issuing stocks of Colt M1911A1 yes it is an effective .45 pistol.

[crazyman]

the problem, as i see it, is this. 1: there is no one perfect pistol for every military need. This is especially true today with so much of our work being more along law enforcement lines. for what we're doing in iraq, a 1911A1 makes plenty of sense as a backup weapon. However, the same reaons its good in this particular case make it less desirable in many other military-style situations. answer? lord knows. maybe something more like the .40 is the best solution. damned if i know.

[Sixgun Symphony]

OK, everyone that's ever shot someone with a pistol in combat post here....The rest of you go back to watching Janets titty on your real player.

Actually, I have used a .357 Magnum revolver in combat. But this was outside of the military and damn if it ain't hard to hit someone when they jump, spin, and run around...

The fool had a knife :lol:

My advice is that one should practice on moving targets.

[California Joe]

Back when I was a cop I nearly shot a mirror because I came around a corner and a guy pointed a gun at me. ;)

[Haiw]

You're such a badass CJ. I wish all pornstars were as cool as you. :(

[California Joe]

To quote Mocking, "I'm f*cking hard mate".

Funny how that works as a badass and a pornstar.

[James]

Like CJ, I once

shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die.

[California Joe]

True. Not proud of that but I did.

We crack us up. Huh James.

[Tommy Gunn]

http://www.colt.com/CMCI/images/1911WWI.jpg

They just need to do away with the grip safety on the 1911 pistol and it would be perfect.

[James]

http://www.colt.com/CMCI/images/1911WWI.jpg

They just need to do away with the grip safety on the 1911 pistol and it would be perfect.

Baloney. M1911 is the best pistol ever.

[Tributal]

For what it's worth - here's my 2 cents:

1. I never shot a man in Reno just to watch him die (though I love the Johnny Cash reference.)

2. There is nothing wrong with the 9mm round. HOWEVER, I do not believe the M9 to be a good choice as a military sidearm. As some of you might remember part of the reason why the U.S. went with the M9 was because Beretta were prepared to set up their manifacture in the U.S. (always a heavy political card) plus their bid was lower than the other contendors.
When the Swedish armed forces started to look into a 9mm pistol to replace the Brownings and Huskvarna pistols they were carrying, Beretta, SIG, and Glock were the three main contenders. Beretta went out first as the slide sheered off the frame when using the m/39B ammunition Sweden uses for all their 9mm weapons (more on this later.) The SIG and Glock were very even, but the Glock won due to it's ease of operation and lower price.

3. The Marines are currently issuing newly manufactured Kimber 1911's to MEU(SOC). They seem to be very happy with it. I myself own a Kimber TLE/RL II, and when you outfit it with a weapons light the felt recoil is less than a 9mm (especially if you're shooting m/39B ammo in the 9mm.)
Personally I think you should let the units that need the .45ACP use the 1911 or the SOCOM Mk23 (my money is on the 1911 as it's easier to operate for people with normal sized hands.) Other units, who are less likely to use their "backup" can stay with the 9mm.

4. If you are going to carry a 9mm pistol, then carry 9mm ammo that does something! The U.S. 9mm ball ammo does not utilize the inherent capacity of the 9mm round. I have previously mentioned the Swedish m/39B ammo. The U.S. army was looking into purchasng this ammo until the political spin begun about the 39B being a "cop killer bullet" as it is classifed as an armor piercing bullet.
The 39B was designed for use in the Swedish kpist m/45 SMG. Because of this it has a thicker jacket with a harder core, and it travels at a higher velocity than it's U.S. companion. Why is this important, some might ask? On the modern battlefield the average combatant will wear some sort of flakvest. Though flakvests are not bulletproof, when you add a chestrig with magazines etc on top it, this gear will pose a very real obsticle to a pistol bullet. A .45ACP ball bullet will not reliably penetrate this gear.
This is when the proper 9mm round comes into it's own! The 39B will penetrate this gear. It might not be a one-shot manstopper - but it will penetrate and injure, whereas the .45ACP will stop in the gear and just stun the target. It's better to injure than to stun, agreed? The average soldier is far more likely to come up against someone wearing proper military gear than som khat-chewing mujahadeen. To say that the U.S. army should get ridd of the 9mm based solely on these limited experiences with a substandard munition is to do all who wear the U.S. uniform a great injustice.
Sure, there are units that will go up against enemies who doesn't wear vests etc. These units will more often than not fall into the special operations field - and this is where the .45ACP belongs.
I personally think that for standard issue the U.S. military should use either Glock 17 or the SIG M11 with ammo comparable or equal to the Swedish m/39B round.
The M9 is a POS that is carried with weak ammo. To say that all 9mm ammo is useless is therefore BS, and most of you know it (or should know it.)

My final statement is that the 9mm and the .45ACP both have their place in the military.

[gilgoul]

This need for something stronger than 9 mil seems to always come from the US and from no other army.

Any other army going the same direction at the moment ?

Here in israel, even if the 9X21 is still the champion, you see more and more guys using the 40 SW, 45 ACP is kind of off limit but those allowed to carry personal gear the tendency is to larger caliber.

[MARK.TIGGER]

there is still a strong affection for the Colt M1911a1 in the US military yes its a good pistol for its time and some of the more modern .45's are superior.
I learnt to shoot pistols using a Browning L9a1 and 2Z ammo. I've heard the arguments against 9mm and its inability to penetrate body armour. The argument tributal put forward about penetration of body armour is relevant but would sugest getting hit by a round that didn't penetrate is going to put you on your ass and gives time for the shooter to adopt another stratagey either fire more rounds at you or take to his/her heels.

[Tributal]

The argument tributal put forward about penetration of body armour is relevant but would sugest getting hit by a round that didn't penetrate is going to put you on your ass and gives time for the shooter to adopt another stratagey either fire more rounds at you or take to his/her heels.I might need to clarify my statement about "stunning." The impact may or may not stun the person who was shot. Yes, he might fall on his ass (because he thinks that should happen when hit) or he might completely disregard the impact. It all depends (but is not limited to) how much adrenaline is going through the system and how well trained the person in question is.

At no time should you take it for granted that a non-penetrating projectile will still have some sort of effect on the target.

Hope that was clear enough. :|

[Tommy Gunn]

3. The Marines are currently issuing newly manufactured Kimber 1911's to MEU(SOC).

Now that looks like a plan. Issue the Colt 1911's to the regular troops and issue the Kimber 1911's to the more elite forces.

[Tributal]

3. The Marines are currently issuing newly manufactured Kimber 1911's to MEU(SOC).Now that looks like a plan. Issue the Colt 1911's to the regular troops and issue the Kimber 1911's to the more elite forces.rofl

The Kimber (or MEU(SOC) pistol as it's commonly referred to) has a Dawson rail for a weaponlight. Personally I have a Kimber TLE/RL II, which will do the same job. The old Colt's need to be lovingly cared for after all the abuse they've sustained - Kimbers for everyone I say!

[Tommy Gunn]

The old Colt's need to be lovingly cared for after all the abuse they've sustained - Kimbers for everyone I say!

Ok, I will go with that. :)

[James]

The last Colt that was manufactured for the U.S. Gov't was made in 1945. All of those still in service have been rebuilt once or twice... ;)

[Tommy Gunn]

The last Colt that was manufactured for the U.S. Gov't was made in 1945. All of those still in service have been rebuilt once or twice... ;)

Then it is definately time to put in another order. :)

Yea, go ahead and the the Colt 1911A1 pistols for the troops. The Kimber can go to the SF guys.

http://www.butterfields.com/lib/images/7378/7378A-9293.jpg

http://www.dlsports.com/images/1911_pistol_n_light_med.jpg

[SABER 2-3]

[quote=Tributal]

3. The Marines are currently issuing newly manufactured Kimber 1911's to MEU(SOC).

What Marines are being issued Kimbers? According to what I'm seeing and what Crane (NATARSL) says; there is NO weapon in the inventory named the MEU(SOC). All of the MUE(SOC)s 1911 pistols are match grade, in stock M1911A1 .45ACP pistols that are "TUNED-UP" by the units armory. This includes all of the accessories that are added to the weapon.

[Tributal]

3. The Marines are currently issuing newly manufactured Kimber 1911's to MEU(SOC).What Marines are being issued Kimbers?MEU(SOC) - the Marine detachment to SOCOM.

According to what I'm seeing and what Crane (NATARSL) says; there is NO weapon in the inventory named the MEU(SOC). Like I said "..commonly referred to as..." What they actually call it I don't know. The Marines are looking to get new .45's to MEU(SOC), but to hold them over until they get a properly procured .45 they bought a load of Kimbers to "tie them over" as many of the old Colts are too battered to cut it for them. Amongst others Unertl entered a 1911 into the race see more here (http://www.unertl1911.com/request.htm).

All of the MUE(SOC)s 1911 pistols are match grade, in stock M1911A1 .45ACP pistols that are "TUNED-UP" by the units armory. This includes all of the accessories that are added to the weapon.Those are the old ones. I'm talking the new batch.

[Glock]

I shot 9mm and .45 and I would take 9mm.
I also shot ~500 bulltets withe a Colt 1911 A1 (from the US Army) And I must say that it is not a gun for this century.
But I heard that the US Army 'll replace there M9's.
Gratings Leo

[Tommy Gunn]

I shot 9mm and .45 and I would take 9mm.
I also shot ~500 bulltets withe a Colt 1911 A1 (from the US Army) And I must say that it is not a gun for this century.
But I heard that the US Army 'll replace there M9's.
Gratings Leo

You likely shot a worn out gun made in WWII. Try a new one that has been tuned. The 1911A1 pistols are very popular with competition match shooters. The 1911A1 can also be carried "cocked & locked" to get off that first shot very fast. The DA only auto pistols with the heavy trigger pull are probably best for half trained troops. But the 1911A1 has advantages for someone that knows what they are doing.

[Glock]

I think .45 is not bad for military use but I would take a 9mm Glock 19 or Sig P226.
And when .45 I would take a Glock 21. But also the new Glock 37 is intresting. And I would also took a look at the .45 Sig P220.
Greatings Leo

[maw]

Tommy Gunn wrote:
"You likely shot a worn out gun made in WWII. Try a new one that has been tuned. The 1911A1 pistols are very popular with competition match shooters. The 1911A1 can also be carried "cocked & locked" to get off that first shot very fast. The DA only auto pistols with the heavy trigger pull are probably best for half trained troops. But the 1911A1 has advantages for someone that knows what they are doing."

the .45 cartridge is NOT a favorite of competion shooters. .38 super, 9x21 and the new 9x23 are where it's at. ammo has evolved for rifles from 30.06 to .308 to .223 and now to 6.8, the same has happened with handgun ammo, it's just that the military hasn't kept up.

for the record, the best shootin' (points/split times) handgun i've ever tried was probably a custom caspian 1911 in .38 super.

[Tributal]

The 1911A1 can also be carried "cocked & locked" to get off that first shot very fast. The DA only auto pistols with the heavy trigger pull are probably best for half trained troops.You know, just pulling the trigger is faster than disengaging the thumbsafety and pulling the trigger. One movement versus two.

But the 1911A1 has advantages for someone that knows what they are doing.As does the Glock.

Of course, I have a 1911 and a Glock, so I can say whatever I want! woot

[MK133]

http://www.kywon.com/Guns/TRPOp/TRPOpR4b.jpg
http://www.kywon.com/Guns/TRPOp/TRPOpL2b.jpg

[TriggerPuller]

Negative on the issueing of the Kimber model to the MARDET!!

TP

By the way CJ Iam here what you wanna know?

[TriggerPuller]

http://www.springfield-armory.com/images/pistols/PC9105LLarge.jpgI have this model and the standard TRP and I do not like either one whatsoever!

TP

[MK133]

I hear many SWAT and NSW are snagging up this TRP Operators like crazy, why don't you like it TriggerPuller?

[Tributal]

Negative on the issueing of the Kimber model to the MARDET!!MARDET same as MEU(SOC)? All the sources I've seen state that MEU(SOC) got the Kimber as an interim pistol.

Oh. and this is what I have, though mine has different grips and a SA speedchute:
http://kimberamerica.com/images/pistols/summerle/thumbs/CustomTLERLII.jpg

[maw]

the meusoc is not a kimber. it's been covered here before, but there's a clone made by iron brigade:
http://www.ironbrigadearmory.com/
http://www.ironbrigadearmory.com/meusoc2.jpg

it now looks like unertl is trying to cash in on the buzz too:
http://www.unertl1911.com/request.htm
http://www.unertl1911.com/images/45b.jpg
here's the ad:
http://www.unertl1911.com/pdfs/unertl_full_4C.pdf

save your money.

there was a rumor that det was going with the kimber ICQB, but that's a rumor as far as i know coz the evals haven't started yet.

if you like the whole rail gun thing, here's the heat:
http://www.gggaz.com/dvc/images/Warhammer.jpg
dvc warhammer.

i can't upload, otehrwise i'd send a few pics of some meaty sti's, but here are a couple of customs by marc krebs owned by an individual at mid-south:
http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/mstn/1911.JPG

in a few days i'll try and get a pic of a d-boyz caspian and a larry vickers masterpiece.

[TriggerPuller]

I hear many SWAT and NSW are snagging up this TRP Operators like crazy, why don't you like it TriggerPuller? trigger too stiff 5-6lbs and they shoot low......and no it aint me!!
The iron brigade armory pistol is not in service with the Marines the company is owned by a Former Marine Colonel though. That friggin pistol is $2,300!!!!!!!!!!!!

Colt series 70 style is best. it has loose tolerances so they will be able to function in any climate and they are still combat accurate. Walk out in the sand with a Les Baer or wilson and it wont shoot for very long in many cases.....hand fitting is just too stiff!

TP

[Tributal]

the meusoc is not a kimber. it's been covered here before..How about you read through my posts ín this thread one more time.

it now looks like unertl is trying to cash in on the buzz too:
http://www.unertl1911.com/request.htmThanks for posting the same link I posted a page or two ago...

there was a rumor that det was going with the kimber ICQB, but that's a rumor as far as i know coz the evals haven't started yet.Like I already said - while they're waiting for the real MEU(SOC) pistol to be developed (trials, evals, et al) they purchased a number of Kimbers to tie them over, as the currently issued Colts are not cutting it for them any longer.
They (the Kimbers) are not the final MEU(SOC) pistol - the Kimbers is an interim solution. I thought that was clear from my previous posts, but I guess not...

..larry vickers masterpiece.I'm always up to looking at Vickers' fine workmanship.

[D.E. Watters]

According to Pat Rogers, the Kimber MCP-1 (aka: the ICQB pistol) was purchased for MCSOCOM Detachment 1, not for MEU(SOC). They simply didn't want to wait around for MARSYSCOM to finally select one of the commercial pistols under consideration for MEU(SOC) issue.

[Tributal]

According to Pat Rogers, the Kimber MCP-1 (aka: the ICQB pistol) was purchased for MCSOCOM Detachment 1, not for MEU(SOC). They simply didn't want to wait around for MARSYSCOM to finally select one of the commercial pistols under consideration for MEU(SOC) issue.Okay, I guess I was slightly off. My bad. Fact remains - Kimbers are being issued on an interim basis to certain Marines (USMC SOCOM not MEU(SOC) as I was lead to believe.) Since the Kimber was issued in place of a proper MEU(SOC) pistol, it is commonly (as opposed to officially) referred to as the "new" MEU(SOC) pistol.

And here's a pic of one with the Dawson rail:
http://www.specwargear.com/images/weapon-ICQB%20pistol-1.jpg

[D.E. Watters]

The picture is of a fairly early example. The stocks are being replaced with Simonich 'Gunner Grips' in coyote brown, and the Kimber beavertail grip safety is being replaced by a STI item.

[Tributal]

The picture is of a fairly early example. The stocks are being replaced with Simonich 'Gunner Grips' in coyote brown...Yup. This was the only picture I found of a Kimber MEU(SOC) though.

I've read about (and seen pictures of) the Simonich Gunner Grips and they look pretty damn good (so good I'm thinking of getting a set for myself.) Hopefully Simonich Knives will continue to develop new products of that caliber even though Rob's no longer with us.

From what I read the "old" MEU(SOC) 1911's sported Pachmayr wrap-arounds, so I wasn't too surprised to see Pachmayr grips in this pic. Personally I prefer a checkered frontstrap over rubber grooves, but that's just me.

[maw]

the strider crew have stepped up and will continue to provide gunner grips and some of the other simonich products. very cool of them to do so.
rip rob.

[Tributal]

the strider crew have stepped up and will continue to provide gunner grips and some of the other simonich products. I just hope they will continue to bring NEW products in the same spririt.

Continuing to produce Rob's existing designs is fine, but it will make it hard for the company to last if they don't also introduce new products in Rob's spirit.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Background Information on the
United States Pistol Caliber .45 M1911
By David L. Velleux
(http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/background.htm#test)

Click on the link above and check out the results of the The Thompson-LaGarde Cadaver Tests of 1904.

"In 1901, President Theodore Roosevelt appointed Brigadier General William Crozier as Chief of Army Ordnance. In 1904, Crozier assigned two individuals, Captain John T. Thompson of the Infantry and Major Louis Anatole LaGarde of the Medical Corps, to investigate and recommend which caliber should be used in any new service handgun. At the Nelson Morris Company Union Stockyards in Chicago, Illinois, they tested several types of handguns, calibers and bullet styles against both live cattle and medical cadavers."

"Based upon the data they gathered, Thompson and LaGarde stated, "the Board was of the opinion that a bullet, which will have the shock effect and stopping effect at short ranges necessary for a military pistol or revolver, should have a caliber not less than .45". But they also said, "...soldiers armed with pistols or revolvers should be drilled unremittingly in the accuracy of fire" because most of the human body offered "no hope of stopping an adversary by shock or other immediate results when hit."

[ogukuo72]

Background Information on the
United States Pistol Caliber .45 M1911
By David L. Velleux
(http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/background.htm#test)

Click on the link above and check out the results of the The Thompson-LaGarde Cadaver Tests of 1904.

"In 1901, President Theodore Roosevelt appointed Brigadier General William Crozier as Chief of Army Ordnance. In 1904, Crozier assigned two individuals, Captain John T. Thompson of the Infantry and Major Louis Anatole LaGarde of the Medical Corps, to investigate and recommend which caliber should be used in any new service handgun. At the Nelson Morris Company Union Stockyards in Chicago, Illinois, they tested several types of handguns, calibers and bullet styles against both live cattle and medical cadavers."

"Based upon the data they gathered, Thompson and LaGarde stated, "the Board was of the opinion that a bullet, which will have the shock effect and stopping effect at short ranges necessary for a military pistol or revolver, should have a caliber not less than .45". But they also said, "...soldiers armed with pistols or revolvers should be drilled unremittingly in the accuracy of fire" because most of the human body offered "no hope of stopping an adversary by shock or other immediate results when hit."

Interesting quote.

What is also interesting is that you don't get any reports on how effective 0.45in calibre rounds actually are.

We keep hearing about how troops complained that 9mm nd 5.56mm doesn't stop the enemy dead in his tracks and wanted something bigger, but hardly any evidence - even anecdotal ones - about how much better the 0.45 and 7.62mm actually performs.

[Tributal]

Click on the link above and check out the results of the The Thompson-LaGarde Cadaver Tests of 1904.Thank God we haven't moved an inch forward in ballistics since 1904. :fork:

[Sayeret]

I think the military should start using .40 caliber firearms such as the glock 23

http://www.terravista.pt/Bilene/3437/G23.JPG

The police and FBI use this pistol often. They stopped using the 9mm guns soon after a shoot out in Miami, Florida. In which two FBI agents were killed, three seriously wounded, two wounded, and one uninjured. The two suspects were killed but one of the criminals was shot twelve times before he finally went down and he was still breathing when ambulences came but died soon after. The criminal who survived so long was armed with Ruger Mini-14, and two .357 revolvers. Most of the FBI agents had S&W M459 9mm pistols. A .40 caliber pistol is effective because it is more powerful than a 9mm but has less recoil than a .45 pistol.

[ogukuo72]

I think the military should start using .40 caliber firearms such as the glock 23

http://www.terravista.pt/Bilene/3437/G23.JPG

The police and FBI use this pistol often. They stopped using the 9mm guns soon after a shoot out in Miami, Florida. In which two FBI agents were killed, three seriously wounded, two wounded, and one uninjured. The two suspects were killed but one of the criminals was shot twelve times before he finally went down and he was still breathing when ambulences came but died soon after. The criminal who survived so long was armed with Ruger Mini-14, and two .357 revolvers. Most of the FBI agents had S&W M459 9mm pistols. A .40 caliber pistol is effective because it is more powerful than a 9mm but has less recoil than a .45 pistol.

In the aftermath of the Miami shoot-out, the FBI had a brief dilliance with a powered down 10mm Auto round in a huge 1000 series (can't remember the exact model number) Smith and Wesson pistol, but this proved unpopular due to its size. This proved to be the only time when a 10mm calibre round got anywhere near the hips of FBI agents.

In the end, the FBI went back to the 9mm, albeit dumping the old 115-grain Silvertip (used at the Miami shoot-out) for the 147-grain Hydra-shok. The FBI also dumped the Smith and Wesson Model 459's for the SIG-Sauer P226 (a very fine choice of firearms).

There's some talk of the FBI switching over to a Glock 0.357 SIG (oops, sorry, 0.357 Auto), but I'm not sure if this has become official yet. Please note that it is still a 9mm round.

BTW, the Miami firefight was ended by a wounded FBI agent armed with a Model 13 loaded with 0.38 Special +P 158-grain Semi-Wadcutter Hollow-Points ... another 9mm calibre round.

[Sayeret]

BTW, the Miami firefight was ended by a wounded FBI agent armed with a Model 13 loaded with 0.38 Special +P 158-grain Semi-Wadcutter Hollow-Points ... another 9mm calibre round.

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure one of the wounded agents finally ended the fight by shooting the last surviving criminal with a shotgun twice.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Click on the link above and check out the results of the The Thompson-LaGarde Cadaver Tests of 1904.Thank God we haven't moved an inch forward in ballistics since 1904. :fork:

Show me another ballistic test that uses human cadavers for test subjects.

No, I don't trust ballistic gelatin.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Background Information on the
United States Pistol Caliber .45 M1911
By David L. Velleux
(http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/background.htm#test)

Click on the link above and check out the results of the The Thompson-LaGarde Cadaver Tests of 1904.



What is also interesting is that you don't get any reports on how effective 0.45in calibre rounds actually are.



Click on the link.

Ganted, they only had .45 Colt rather than .45 ACP then. But still, an interesting read.

[Tributal]

Click on the link above and check out the results of the The Thompson-LaGarde Cadaver Tests of 1904.Thank God we haven't moved an inch forward in ballistics since 1904. :fork:Show me another ballistic test that uses human cadavers for test subjects.Why?

It doesn't prove anything if I do or don't. They used a .45 Colt with lead bullets, one very effective round for killing things (had a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt myself) but they didn't have Black Talons, Gold Dots, or Hydra Shok's back then. So, compared to what they had available back then - yeah, a .45 caliber bullet was the way to go.

Other than being an interesting read, taking their results and comparing them to "modern" munitions (including the .45ACP) is not very useful.

[Tributal]

I think the military should start using .40 caliber firearms such as the glock 23.The Glock 22 would be a better option, but I would still say that a HS2000/Springfield Armory XD40 in 40 would be a better option than the Glock. Just read up on the risks of using Glock's in .40S&W. Glocks in 9mm are VERY reliable anbd can withstand extreme abuse, but a Glock in .40S&W.... Nope.

[Glock]

.40 is nothing for the Military. Its perfect for Police Men but not for soldier.
My English is to bad to explain why this is so.
You cant shoot with a .40 through a vest. (with Magazines in the front)
There many reasons why the 9mm is the most chosen.

[Tributal]

.40 is nothing for the Military. Its perfect for Police Men but not for soldier.I agree. I was pointing to other factors than the fact that the caliber itself doesn't do what we want it to in military circles.
Kinda like "Let's say that the 40 was a viable choice for the military, then what pistol should they use?"

[ogukuo72]

BTW, the Miami firefight was ended by a wounded FBI agent armed with a Model 13 loaded with 0.38 Special +P 158-grain Semi-Wadcutter Hollow-Points ... another 9mm calibre round.

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure one of the wounded agents finally ended the fight by shooting the last surviving criminal with a shotgun twice.

Nope. Pretty sure he ended the firefight with his revolver rather than the shotgun. Special Agent Mireles was shot in his left forearm by a 0.223. He DID fire his shotgun single-handedly, using the rear bumper of a car to support the weapon. He wounded one of the suspects (Platt) in his feet, but the suspect managed to get into a car with his partner.

Before the suspects could escape, Agent Mireles got up on his feet, and walked up to the car and drew his Smith and Wesson revolver. He fired single-handedly, putting two 0.38 Special rounds into Platt's head, three at the other suspect (Matix) in the passenger seat, and then the last round at Platt again. Platt was killed instantly, and his partner died later from his wounds.

Like I said, 9mm calibre rounds put an end to a very deadly firefight.

[ogukuo72]

Background Information on the
United States Pistol Caliber .45 M1911
By David L. Velleux
(http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/background.htm#test)

Click on the link above and check out the results of the The Thompson-LaGarde Cadaver Tests of 1904.



What is also interesting is that you don't get any reports on how effective 0.45in calibre rounds actually are.



Click on the link.

Ganted, they only had .45 Colt rather than .45 ACP then. But still, an interesting read.

It is. Now, are there any evidence from the battlefield? Such as maybe an officer in the Philippines saying something like, "I used the 0.38 revolver before, and had great difficulty stopping a Moro warrior even with a few rounds. When I got my 0.45, I had no problems at all stopping them with one bullet."

Somehow, I'm not sure how shooting animals and waiting to see how long they die is going to accomplish anything, especially when they are shot in a variety of places, and the animals are not even of the same size.

[James]

Regardless of any testing, the .45 was good enough from 1911 to about 1985. I think it is interesting that SOF units sometimes often use the .45 today. The biggest criticism I've seen/heard/read about the .45 is that it takes more time to train someone to us it properly. Another case of changing equipment instead of improving training? Who knows...

I think it is important to not (forgive me if this has been mentioned already) that we are talking about a back up weapon. I suspect that if I was doing the business, and my primary went down, I'd be happy to have ANYTHING that enabled me to put rounds down range.

[Glock]

In my opinion the Perfect wepon for Army is Glock 9mm or Sig P226. :D
But the M9 is not good. The origenal 92F is better than the M9.

But I think that Pistols arent important for the Army. Most imortant Infanterie wepon for Armys is the Rifle. And the US should by a new one.
Greatings Leo

[Tributal]

The origenal 92F is better than the M9.I have to disagree with you on that one.

The original 92F had a problem with the slides sheering off the frame from high-pressured rounds (such +P, +P+ rounds, and SMG ammo.) In order to prevent this from happening the 92F was improved so that the slide would not come off the frame and injuring the shooter.

The improved version is the 92FS, or as it is known in the U.S. armed forces - the M9.

The M9 - an improved version of a ****ty gun. ;)

[Sixgun Symphony]

It doesn't prove anything if I do or don't. They used a .45 Colt with lead bullets, one very effective round for killing things (had a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt myself) but they didn't have Black Talons, Gold Dots, or Hydra Shok's back then. So, compared to what they had available back then - yeah, a .45 caliber bullet was the way to go.

Other than being an interesting read, taking their results and comparing them to "modern" munitions (including the .45ACP) is not very useful.

The military can not use Black Talons, Gold Dots, or Hydra Shoks because our government signed onto some treaties about not using "dum dum" bullets.

I know these rules are ridiculous. If I shoot something, I want it to drop. But until congress repeals these pacts, we must abide by them.

[Sayeret]

ogukuo72 said:


Like I said, 9mm calibre rounds put an end to a very deadly firefight.

Are you serious about this? The 9mm rounds didn't even put an end to that fight and you even said it.

the Miami firefight was ended by a wounded FBI agent armed with a Model 13 loaded with 0.38 Special +P 158-grain Semi-Wadcutter Hollow-Points ... another 9mm calibre round.

A .38 is not a 9mm bullet, if it was it would be called that.

Platt wasn't wearing body armor or on drugs but still it took twelve 9mm rounds to stop him. Since Matix was disabled in the beginning of the shoot out Platt killed and wounded all the agents. He was armed with a rifle but it shouldn't of mattered that much because the gun fight was only 15 feet apart. Since the 9mm is such a crappy bullet Platt was able to kill two FBI agents, seriously wound three others, and moderatly or slightly wound two others. In all eight FBI agents were there but because of the lack of stopping power of the 9mm bullet half of them were almost killed by a bank robber who was armed with nothing more than two .357 revolvers and a .223 rifle and had no kind of body armor at all. You can say the 9mm round is a good round but its idiotic to say that the Miami shootout proves it.

[ogukuo72]

ogukuo72 said:


Like I said, 9mm calibre rounds put an end to a very deadly firefight.

Are you serious about this? The 9mm rounds didn't even put an end to that fight and you even said it.

the Miami firefight was ended by a wounded FBI agent armed with a Model 13 loaded with 0.38 Special +P 158-grain Semi-Wadcutter Hollow-Points ... another 9mm calibre round.

A .38 is not a 9mm bullet, if it was it would be called that.

Platt wasn't wearing body armor or on drugs but still it took twelve 9mm rounds to stop him. Since Matix was disabled in the beginning of the shoot out Platt killed and wounded all the agents. He was armed with a rifle but it shouldn't of mattered that much because the gun fight was only 15 feet apart. Since the 9mm is such a crappy bullet Platt was able to kill two FBI agents, seriously wound three others, and moderatly or slightly wound two others. In all eight FBI agents were there but because of the lack of stopping power of the 9mm bullet half of them were almost killed by a bank robber who was armed with nothing more than two .357 revolvers and a .223 rifle and had no kind of body armor at all. You can say the 9mm round is a good round but its idiotic to say that the Miami shootout proves it.

That is why I said a 9mm calibre round. 0.38in = 9mm. Unless, of course, you mean that all 9mm calibre round are 9mm Parabellum rounds (which of course they are not - there's 0.380 ACP, 9 x 21mm, and 9mm Mauser rounds etc.)

The 9mm bullet used at the shoot-out (115 grain Silvertips) WERE crappy rounds, but that is not to say that ALL 9mm calibre rounds WERE crappy. The 0.38 Special rounds did their job well at the same shoot-out.

Indeed, to follow your line of reasoning - that 9mm rounds are crappy because they did not put a stop to the two suspects instantly - then we'll have to say that the 12-gauge shot-gun 00 Buckshot rounds are crappy too, since these rounds, too, failed to stop the suspects. And to follow the same line of reasoning, a 0.45 pistol would be better than the 12-gauge shotgun.

You are wrong that I am claiming that the 9mm rounds are good rounds (although I do believe that this is the case). That is not my intention. My intention is only to DISPROVE the claim that the Miami shootout shows that 9mm calibre rounds are inadequate.

[Tributal]

Other than being an interesting read, taking their results and comparing them to "modern" munitions (including the .45ACP) is not very useful.The military can not use Black Talons, Gold Dots, or Hydra Shoks because our government signed onto some treaties about not using "dum dum" bullets.I believe that would be the Geneva Convention. They are not allowed to use unjacketed bullets such as that of the .45 Colt either, so based on that the link you posted was of no value what so ever. ;)

I know these rules are ridiculous. If I shoot something, I want it to drop. But until congress repeals these pacts, we must abide by them.Well, if the U.S. decides to back away from the Geneva Convention U.S. troops will not be offered the protection of it either. "So what," you might ask - well, U.S. troops that are taken prisoners do not have to be treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention (say hello to Stalag 17 and any Nazi camp you might think of,) torture would be fine, excecutions of prisoners would be okay too. But I guess hollowpoint ammo is worth it, huh?

[XASA]

I'm sure that if the hundreds of thousands of people killed by 9mm rounds fired from pistols and submachine guns over the past 100 years could talk they would argue that its stopping power is sufficient for the job it was intended for.

[Tributal]

I'm sure that if the hundreds of thousands of people killed by 9mm rounds fired from pistols and submachine guns over the past 100 years could talk they would argue that its stopping power is sufficient for the job it was intended for.Well, stopping power and leathality isn't really the same thing - stopping power has to do with how fast the target goes down after being hit and whether or not one shot or more was needed to TCB.

Just because thousands of people have died from 9mm rounds doesn't mean that they all went down from a single shot right on impact.

But, I guess your point is that it's an adequate round to kill most two-legged varmint, and I don't disagree with that.

[Herrmannek]

I'm sure that if the hundreds of thousands of people killed by 9mm rounds fired from pistols and submachine guns over the past 100 years could talk they would argue that its stopping power is sufficient for the job it was intended for.Well, stopping power and leathality isn't really the same thing - stopping power has to do with how fast the target goes down after being hit and whether or not one shot or more was needed to TCB.

Just because thousands of people have died from 9mm rounds doesn't mean that they all went down from a single shot right on impact.

But, I guess your point is that it's an adequate round to kill most two-legged varmint, and I don't disagree with that.

Do you think that 2.5 milimetres more in diameter to make greater probability of hiting vital points, or 8 milimetres more in ?circumference? with gives not more than 22% of optimistic gain in blood loose makes any meaning difference in instant stoping power between 9mm and .45 . I doubt....

[TriggerPuller]

[quote=Glock]The origenal 92F is better than the M9.
The original 92F had a problem with the slides sheering off the frame from high-pressured rounds (such +P, +P+ rounds, and SMG ammo.) In order to prevent this from happening the 92F was improved so that the slide would not come off the frame and injuring the shooter.

quote] You are not A Navy SEAL until you have tasted Beretta steele!!!!! :D It is an old joke!!

TP

[crazyman]

actually, if i remember right the geneva convention pertains to treatment of persons in time of war. civilians in the combat zone, prisoners of war, etc. the hague convention is the one that laid down rules concerning use of certain weapons (such as .50 cals on individual soldiers, and unjacketed rounds). If i remember correctly, and i could be wrong, the U.S. did not sign the hague convention because it would not allow us to use several types of mines (including claymores) which are a big part of our defensive plan for places like the DMZ in korea. Just this weekend I was talking to a jr. here who happens to also be an E6, sniper section leader, and he mentioned that they sometimes use a 7.62 unjacketed round to shoot through windows and such.

[Tributal]

I'm sure that if the hundreds of thousands of people killed by 9mm rounds fired from pistols and submachine guns over the past 100 years could talk they would argue that its stopping power is sufficient for the job it was intended for.Well, stopping power and leathality isn't really the same thing - stopping power has to do with how fast the target goes down after being hit and whether or not one shot or more was needed to TCB.

Just because thousands of people have died from 9mm rounds doesn't mean that they all went down from a single shot right on impact.

But, I guess your point is that it's an adequate round to kill most two-legged varmint, and I don't disagree with that.Do you think that 2.5 milimetres more in diameter to make greater probability of hiting vital points, or 8 milimetres more in ?circumference? with gives not more than 22% of optimistic gain in blood loose makes any meaning difference in instant stoping power between 9mm and .45 . I doubt....Eh... What are you trying to say?

I was pointing out the difference between "stopping power" and lethality - I didn't say that one was better than the other. Actually, maybe I should have pointed out that my statement about how "just because thousands of people have died from 9mm rounds doesn't mean that they all went down from a single shot right on impact" also goes for the .45. Not all people who are shot by .45's will fall dead to the ground.

Regardless of what caliber round you are serving shot placement is key. I mean, it doesn't matter how big the bullet is when you're shooting at someone if you miss. Catch my drift? ;)

[Tributal]

The origenal 92F is better than the M9.
The original 92F had a problem with the slides sheering off the frame from high-pressured rounds (such +P, +P+ rounds, and SMG ammo.) In order to prevent this from happening the 92F was improved so that the slide would not come off the frame and injuring the shooter. You are not A Navy SEAL until you have tasted Beretta steele!!!!! :D It is an old joke!!Exactly!

[Tributal]

actually, if i remember right the geneva convention pertains to treatment of persons in time of war. civilians in the combat zone, prisoners of war, etc.The Hague and Geneva Conventions both cover the treatment of POW's etc etc. But you are correct in that it's the Hague Convention of 1899 that covers ammo, the Geneva Convention of 1928 prohibited the use of poisonous gas and bacteriological warfare. Hence both cover weapons of war.

Both the Hague and the Geneva conventions have been continously updated to encompass new inventions or to "clarify" gray areas.

the hague convention is the one that laid down rules concerning use of certain weapons (such as .50 cals on individual soldiers, and unjacketed rounds).There's nothing in the Hague convention about not using 50cals against individuals, if it did the Ma'Deuce would have been retired years ago.

However, some do argue that 50cals are covered by the 1899 Hague Convention, section 2 , chapter 1, article 23 - "(Besides the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially prohibited) To employ arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury."

So, if you are using a 50cal to blow off limbs then you could theoretically be violating the Hague Convention. Then again, if you by accident nail someone center of mass with an AT-4 or an RPG you could argue the same.

Anyway, in regards to unjackated rounds it states:
"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

If i remember correctly, and i could be wrong, the U.S. did not sign the hague convention because it would not allow us to use several types of mines (including claymores) which are a big part of our defensive plan for places like the DMZ in korea.Mines are not covered by either the Hague or the Geneva Conventions, other than indirectly in accordance of the 1907 Hague Convention, section 2 , chapter 1, article 23 - "(Besides the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially prohibited) To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering." Mines designed to cause "unnecessary suffering" only are banned, but mines designed to kill are okay!

Also, the U.S. did not sign the first Hague Convention, though they did sign the second one, by which they "kinda" signed off on the first one. Either way the U.S. has acknowledged the first Hague Convention and does follow it even if they weren't there to sign it.


Edited to add:

My argument stands - if the U.S. backs away from the Hague Convention (or the Geneva Convention) it also backs away from any and all protection those conventions provide.

[Sayeret]

ogukuo72

I found yet another example of why the 9mm is a bad round. Yes it is better when it is a hollow point but the military doesn't allow anything except FMJs.

It took 33 9mm rounds to incapacitate a liquor store robber/

[Haiw]

It took 33 9mm rounds to incapacitate a liquor store robber/
The big question is, how many of those were hits? :P

[ogukuo72]

ogukuo72

I found yet another example of why the 9mm is a bad round. Yes it is better when it is a hollow point but the military doesn't allow anything except FMJs.

It took 33 9mm rounds to incapacitate a liquor store robber/

I don't think each of us will be able to convince the other. It's been an interesting discussion anyway.

Let's just agree to disagree, and remain friends! :hug:

[D.E. Watters]

It took 33 9mm rounds to incapacitate a liquor store robber/
The big question is, how many of those were hits? :P

Actually, there were 33 hits from 9x19mm pistols (S&W Model 39 w/ Winchester 100gr JSP 'Power Points'). The suspect was also hit with two 12 gauge rifled slugs, the last of which smashed his spine and heart. The officers in question were Illinois State Police troopers. It happened back in the mid/late-'70s in Cook County, IL.

[ogukuo72]

The suspect took two 12-gauge rifled sluges before going down? THAT's one tough SOB. You can use those to punch a hole in the engine block of a car!

BTW, the 100-grain rounds were light rounds, just like the 115 grain Silvertips used by the FBI.

Of course, the NATO standard 9mm is a 115 grain round - not sure whether these rounds had higher velocity, though.

If I'm not wrong, WW II German and British 9mm Parabellum rounds had 124 grain bullets, and they did not seem to have a problem with them.

Meanwhile, most security agencies seemed to be using 147 grain rounds nowadays.

[SABER 2-3]

It took 33 9mm rounds to incapacitate a liquor store robber/
The big question is, how many of those were hits? :P

Actually, there were 33 hits from 9x19mm pistols (S&W Model 39 w/ Winchester 100gr JSP 'Power Points'). The suspect was also hit with two 12 gauge rifled slugs, the last of which smashed his spine and heart. The officers in question were Illinois State Police troopers. It happened back in the mid/late-'70s in Cook County, IL.

I guess we know what two rounds ended that turkey shoot.

[Tributal]

I think these last few posts have just helped to illustrate what I've said previously - you can't say that a caliber is worthless based on experienced with poor ammo, or where there took a significant amount of force to stop the aggressor (I would say that two shotguns lugs is a significant amount of force.)

Like others have stated most agencies that use 9mm use 124gr or 147gr as lighter bullets won't do the job.

[Herrmannek]

I'm sure that if the hundreds of thousands of people killed by 9mm rounds fired from pistols and submachine guns over the past 100 years could talk they would argue that its stopping power is sufficient for the job it was intended for.Well, stopping power and leathality isn't really the same thing - stopping power has to do with how fast the target goes down after being hit and whether or not one shot or more was needed to TCB.

Just because thousands of people have died from 9mm rounds doesn't mean that they all went down from a single shot right on impact.

But, I guess your point is that it's an adequate round to kill most two-legged varmint, and I don't disagree with that.Do you think that 2.5 milimetres more in diameter to make greater probability of hiting vital points, or 8 milimetres more in ?circumference? with gives not more than 22% of optimistic gain in blood loose makes any meaning difference in instant stoping power between 9mm and .45 . I doubt....Eh... What are you trying to say?

I was pointing out the difference between "stopping power" and lethality - I didn't say that one was better than the other. Actually, maybe I should have pointed out that my statement about how "just because thousands of people have died from 9mm rounds doesn't mean that they all went down from a single shot right on impact" also goes for the .45. Not all people who are shot by .45's will fall dead to the ground.

Regardless of what caliber round you are serving shot placement is key. I mean, it doesn't matter how big the bullet is when you're shooting at someone if you miss. Catch my drift? ;)

I used your posts as ilustration :) . And my question "you" wasn't singular "you", but plural and was directed to all discutants on both sides :)
sorry :)

[TriggerPuller]

I think these last few posts have just helped to illustrate what I've said previously - you can't say that a caliber is worthless based on experienced with poor ammo, or where there took a significant amount of force to stop the aggressor (I would say that two shotguns lugs is a significant amount of force.)

Like others have stated most agencies that use 9mm use 124gr or 147gr as lighter bullets won't do the job. I personally like the Winchester SXT 127 gr +P+. The 147 gr is too slow for its weight out of a handgun.
The Lemas ammo (CQB,urban warfare et all) are the best rounds in the world right now but again handgun rounds are inherintly weak and you can never rely on a OSS.

TP

[Tributal]

I used your posts as ilustration :) . And my question "you" wasn't singular "you", but plural and was directed to all discutants on both sides :)
sorry :)Ah, I see.

[Tributal]

I personally like the Winchester SXT 127 gr +P+. The 147 gr is too slow for its weight out of a handgun.I carried Speed Gold Dots and I believe they are 124gr, but I'm not 100% on that one.


The Lemas ammo (CQB,urban warfare et all) are the best rounds in the world right now but again handgun rounds are inherintly weak and you can never rely on a OSS.Never heard of Lemas, but I do agree with the rest of the statement.

[Sayeret]

ogukuo72

Let's just agree to disagree, and remain friends!

lol, sure

[Sixgun Symphony]

I found yet another example of why the 9mm is a bad round. Yes it is better when it is a hollow point but the military doesn't allow anything except FMJs.



Which is why the pentagon should make an order for more .45 caliber 1911A1 pistols from Colt and just drop the 9mm caliber pistols.

[Laconian]

The 9mm vs. .45 debate is the Chevy vs. Ford debate of handguns. For a little clarification, in the FBI Miami Shootout, Platt was dead from the start of the fight. One of the first 9mm rounds severed his aorta. It took about 4 minutes for him to bleed out, during which he inflicted the casualties already mentioned. It was his mindset that kept him in the fight & nothing short of a CNS shot would have brought him down. Would a .45 (or .50 cal) round inflicting the same type of wound had better effect? I don't know. I know that back in the '80s & '90s when I spent a lot more time reading ballistics reports, Evan Marshall's studies of nearly 800 individual shootings (mostly from LE situations) showed the 125 gr JHP .357 Magnum was the best single shot stopper with about 86% OSS. Of course that was before the prolific use of the .40 S&W. I don't know what the latest data shows.

Also, the robber stopped by the ISP with 2 slugs after taking 33 hits w/9 mm was on PCP, a CNS stimulant, & it was the spine shot that put him down (stopped movement).

My take: Shot placement is more important than caliber. But as the one of the rules of gunfighting state: "Never go to a gunfight with any caliber handgun that starts with a number less than 4."

[Herrmannek]

"Never go to a gunfight with any caliber handgun that starts with a number less than 4."
thats why 9.0 is enough :)

[MolliG]

Which is why the pentagon should make an order for more .45 caliber 1911A1 pistols from Colt and just drop the 9mm caliber pistols.

Why 1911s though? Why not USP45 for example? :)

[crazyman]

well for one thing, the 1911 is a bit easier to handle for the average person. ya need some big hands to handle a USP .45 properly. as a whole...the best caliber is really just the one that the individual doing the shooting feels the most comfortable with. excepting for some of the extremes like .50 AE and .22LR's, various caliber pistol rounds will do the job

[Glock]

Glock 21 :D
http://remtek.com/arms/glock/model/45/21/21.gif
Greatings Leo

[rob]

i doubt we will see a glcok. hell glock didnt participate in the xm9 trials.

the reason they dont want to. to become adopted by the us military it needs to be built in the us(not origin but built liek how fn and berreta move shop to the us) and glcok does not want to do that.

[Johnnyringo]

Can a 9mm penetrate a sloped windshield on a car?

The stories I've heard and the ballistics classes I got while serving said that a 9mm wasn't effective against a windsheild or the crappy flak jackets we we're issued. Of course they also told us the jackets would stop a knife, but a buddy of mine put a K-Bar straight through in a drunken experiment once.

[martinexsquaddie]

Johnny why don't you hide behind a windscreen and we will take potshots at you with 9mm rofl
most nato 9mm is loaded to fire out of open bolt smgs so is usually quite a bit more powerful than civillian loaded ammo.

[Tributal]

Johnny why don't you hide behind a windscreen and we will take potshots at you with 9mm rofl
most nato 9mm is loaded to fire out of open bolt smgs so is usually quite a bit more powerful than civillian loaded ammo.It's so sad to see that everyone bases the "poor" performance of the 9mm on the the oldest and weakest load/cartridge they can find. No-one wants to face the fact that there's some excellent 9mm loads out there. The fact that the current U.S. issue 9mm ammo doesn't live up to expectations is a separate problem all together (it has to do with supplying a load that won't f@ck up the M9 when you shoot it.) In short it's a ****ty load for a ****ty gun. There are better 9mm loads and 9mm pistols than the ones issued to the troops.

Still wouldn't wanna take Johnny's place behind the windshield though. :roll:

[Johnnyringo]

Can a 9mm penetrate a sloped windshield on a car?

The stories I've heard and the ballistics classes I got while serving said that a 9mm wasn't effective against a windsheild or the crappy flak jackets we we're issued. Of course they also told us the jackets would stop a knife, but a buddy of mine put a K-Bar straight through in a drunken experiment once.

Notice if you actually READ my post I never say that a 9mm can penetrate a windshield...

[martinexsquaddie]

:D bite
best story i heard about shooting was at some pratical pistol shooting event (before it was banned) people were diving out of a car and then shooting at targets very high speed:)
anyway this ex SAS guy was about I think he was flogging gear somebody found out and began to pester him to have a go . he argeed but said don't expect much hav'nt touch a handgun for a few years.
gets in the car it stops he puts the entire magazine of the pistol straight through the windscreen rofl

[Tributal]

gets in the car it stops he puts the entire magazine of the pistol straight through the windscreenThat's the way they do it.

[ogukuo72]

:D bite
best story i heard about shooting was at some pratical pistol shooting event (before it was banned) people were diving out of a car and then shooting at targets very high speed:)
anyway this ex SAS guy was about I think he was flogging gear somebody found out and began to pester him to have a go . he argeed but said don't expect much hav'nt touch a handgun for a few years.
gets in the car it stops he puts the entire magazine of the pistol straight through the windscreen rofl

:lol: That's good! Practical as ever. Why dive out of the car when you can shoot through the window?

How's the car owner going to claim insurance? ("You see, an ex-SAS guy - you know the type - just put an entire magazine through the windshield when he was suppose to dive out of the car, do a roll, run to shelter, roll behind it, pop up and shoot the targets.")

[KaBar104]

i've herd of and seen pictures of MEU (SOC) and MCSOCOM using modified M1911s made by various companies like Kimber who also makes the pistol for LAPD SWAT larger mags, a light rail on the botton (www.m1911.org), and other mods

[Sayeret]

martinexsquaddie wrote:

Johnny why don't you hide behind a windscreen and we will take potshots at you with 9mm
most nato 9mm is loaded to fire out of open bolt smgs so is usually quite a bit more powerful than civillian loaded ammo.

There is more to consider when talking about whether or not a 9mm can penetrate a windshield. Besides the thick glass used the window is at an angle and so the bullet might bounce off, not that I would used a windshield as cover but realize that even if the bullet can penetrate the windshield it doesn't mean it actually will. For example the reason why tanks have so many angles is so that if they are hit by a rocket or missile or whatever it may bounce off. Even if the missile can penetrate an M1 it doesn't mean that its going to because it might hit an angle and bounce off.

[martinexsquaddie]

love the location rofl

[Mark Sman]

I agee, bring back the Colt .45. The REAL Colt .45!

http://www.baanjomyut.com/salapap/gun/03.gif

With the stock 250 grain lead flat nose bullets, and no smokeless powder wussieness either.

http://www.bvs.cz/images/PMC_45LC.jpg

[Gringo]

I agee, bring back the Colt .45. The REAL Colt .45!

http://www.baanjomyut.com/salapap/gun/03.gif

With the stock 250 grain lead flat nose bullets, and no smokeless powder wussieness either.

http://www.bvs.cz/images/PMC_45LC.jpg

oh yeah. I like those, except the one in the picture with all that pretty patterns

[Mark Sman]

except the one in the picture with all that pretty patterns

"Smile when you seez that padner"

Oh E O E OOOOoooo

Wa Wa Waaaaaaah

p-)

[martinexsquaddie]

had a sgt tried to swap the battalions 9mm brownings with some civillian gun owners for 6 guns rofl.
should have waited a few months for the ban could have got some bargins :roll:

[Durandal]

The suspect took two 12-gauge rifled sluges before going down? THAT's one tough SOB. You can use those to punch a hole in the engine block of a car!

Huh? A 12 ga rifled slug would NEVER penetrate a engine block. Even using those crazy 3 1/2 Magnums...

*snort*

I shoot slugs ALL the time at 3/8 inch 12"x12" steel plates. 25 meters to 150 meters...nothing close to penetration. Sure they have MASSIVE take down power and if you are shooting them through gelatin or a deer you *might* get penetration, but an engine block?

You're crazy...

[Sayeret]

love the location rofl

heh, thanks

[Tributal]

i've herd of and seen pictures of MEU (SOC) and MCSOCOM using modified M1911s made by various companies like Kimber who also makes the pistol for LAPD SWAT larger mags, a light rail on the botton (www.m1911.org), and other modsIn one of the after-pics of Saddam's sons (can't remember if it was Oday[sp?] or Qusay[sp?]) you can see a U.S. soldier with an old beaten up 1911 with wood grips and a single-stack 10-round magazine. I wouldn't say that a 10-round magazine for a 1911 is a custom feature as these can be readily bought for any 1911.

[shrek]

Just a quick comment. I've been busy saving the world from TBMs.

I think there is enough evidence to show that the .45 is the superior cartridge. However, you're talking about something that the military is never going to do, at least not in the next few decades or so. This would mean that they would have to first admit their mistake (something that they're not known for) and second change out 1000s of handguns, parts, holsters, specs, manuals, millions of rounds, on and on.

Iv'e only seen a few guys with 9mm shot wounds and they have never been impressive. I have however hunted with a guy for years that kills deer with a .45 rifle and does so efficiently. I hunt Black Bear with a .44 and .45 and have never not stopped one dead in it's tracks.

Hey guys, some of the SEALs that I have known and worked with still carry the 1911. They don't do it because it's hip!!

[ibstolidude]

Iv'e only seen a few guys with 9mm shot wounds and they have never been impressive.


I was very impressed by an M9 wound that befellow a dude I know, I was not there for the events but have seen the results. Somehow I am sure he did not lie in order to make himself look better.
He was taking a crap, when he picked up his pants his M9 fell out of the holster and landed on his big toe. It was an impressive injury, blue, black, greenish-yellow, uhh - nasty! Man that had to hurt.

[ogukuo72]

The suspect took two 12-gauge rifled sluges before going down? THAT's one tough SOB. You can use those to punch a hole in the engine block of a car!

Huh? A 12 ga rifled slug would NEVER penetrate a engine block. Even using those crazy 3 1/2 Magnums...

*snort*

I shoot slugs ALL the time at 3/8 inch 12"x12" steel plates. 25 meters to 150 meters...nothing close to penetration. Sure they have MASSIVE take down power and if you are shooting them through gelatin or a deer you *might* get penetration, but an engine block?

You're crazy...

May be, may be not. I am fallible.

However, I'm going to stand by my statement about the engine block. I suppose American 12 gauge rifled slugs just aren't as powerful as the little green French ones. ;)

[rob]

or maybe that you average fiat has a much smaller block then a ford f150.

but a 12ga penetrating an engine block does sound a bit out there.

[ogukuo72]

You are right, of course. I've consulted the relevant literature. It was my mistake.

It said, "Cracked the engine block." No mention of penetration anywhere. Don't know if it meant that the slug penetrated INTO the engine block, or rechociated after cracking it, or whatever, but the document definitely did not say it penetrated THROUGH the entire engine block.

And the vehicle used in the test was a 1987 Nissan saloon car, not a Fiat.

Apologies for the confusion caused.

[Mark Sman]

OK, this debate has dragged on long enough.

Initialy I would have been satisfied with returning to the Colt .45 Peacemaker. But its now obvious that the metrosexuals are running the show.

I now insist that we return to the black powder Colt Navy revolver in .44 in order to try to regain SOME semblance of manliness.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/product_images/161/39417.jpg

Keep it up. I'll issue you clubs and sharp rocks.

[Herrmannek]

OK, this debate has dragged on long enough.

Initialy I would have been satisfied with returning to the Colt .45 Peacemaker. But its now obvious that the metrosexuals are running the show.

I now insist that we return to the black powder Colt Navy revolver in .44 in order to try to regain SOME semblance of manliness.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/product_images/161/39417.jpg

Keep it up. I'll issue you clubs and sharp rocks.

Doesn't navy means .36 and army .44? BTW Lets back to Walkers. I recognise caseless ammo is trendy lately....

[Mark Sman]

Hmm, cheaper than dirt had it listed as a .44, but Ithink you are right.

Its a wonder after all these years that caseless still hasn't come to the front.

[Durandal]

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/product_images/161/39417.jpg

I love shooting mine...dirty as hell and loud.

I think they need to convert all IPSC shoots to these. p-)

[NeedsABetterName]

hell glock didnt participate in the xm9 trials.


Actually,Glock DID participate in the XM-9 trials,and their entry,the Glock-17 passed all requirements,but Glock withdrew when the US wanted to purchase the manufacturing rights for the pistol to be produced in the US.Just a case of Glock wanting more money,that's all...

[SABER 2-3]

hell glock didnt participate in the xm9 trials.


Actually,Glock DID participate in the XM-9 trials,and their entry,the Glock-17 passed all requirements,but Glock withdrew when the US wanted to purchase the manufacturing rights for the pistol to be produced in the US.Just a case of Glock wanting more money,that's all...

GLOCK, although the perfect pistol, did not test out during the DoD handgun trials officially. GLOCKs do not have the required external safety/decocker that was put in as one of the major requirements by the DoD. GLOCK did every test that the DoD required on their own and proved that they had the better combat handgun.

[Durandal]

Actually,Glock DID participate in the XM-9 trials,and their entry,the Glock-17 passed all requirements,but Glock withdrew when the US wanted to purchase the manufacturing rights for the pistol to be produced in the US.Just a case of Glock wanting more money,that's all...

Hmmm interesting. The United States did not purchase the manufacturing rights from Beretta. Their plant is owned by Beretta...located in Maryland right across the river from Mason Neck, VA. Yes, it is produced in the United States as it should be. Hell, Glock has a factory here already, otherwise they would not be able to sell to the civilian market. H&K has one too...probably put a new one in for the XM-8...

[rob]

i dont think it is a factory just a service center for both sig hk and glock.

but all the info i have says that glock, did not submit a pistol and it was not tested.

[Stl. boy]

My choice would be a Kimber Tactical Custom II...

http://www.kimberamerica.com/tactical.php

[Mark Sman]

I went with Tactical Pro II when I replaced my Para-Ordnance.

I find it addequate. Not much I would change, even if I felt like f'in with it, which I don't.

Incidentally, nothing wrong with the Para, it had just reached the absolute end of its service life as a carry piece. Had already done a full round of replacement once (barrel, bushing, extractor, pins, all springs blahblahblah) it was just time to move on to a younger, slimmer, prettier errr. . . handgun.

[Durandal]

I have been studying up at looking for a better 1911 when I decide to replace by bare bones (but a joy to shoot) Springfield 1911. I have had it for close to four years now. I'll hold onto it and replace the barrel, but I want something better...

Wilson!

I think, hands down, Wilson may just be the single best manufacturer...

Talk about sexy and solid...and its going to hit my wallet hard.

[Geezah]

I have been studying up at looking for a better 1911 when I decide to replace by bare bones (but a joy to shoot) Springfield 1911. I have had it for close to four years now. I'll hold onto it and replace the barrel, but I want something better...

Wilson!

I think, hands down, Wilson may just be the single best manufacturer...

Talk about sexy and solid...and its going to hit my wallet hard.

Have you checked out their Website (http://www.wilsoncombat.com/):D

[Durandal]

Oh yes...and fired the CQB.

Very nice but at a price.

Nothing better than a milled frame.

[Geezah]

Oh yes...and fired the CQB.

Very nice but at a price.

Nothing better than a milled frame.

You could always go with SIG......SIG.....SIG......SIG.....SIG......?
GSR 1911
http://www.sigarms.com/img/photos_gsr-1911.jpg

[Durandal]

You could always go with SIG......SIG.....SIG......SIG.....SIG......?
GSR 1911

Blah.

Why would ANY gun owner who wanted to buy a 1911 buy a Euro knock-off?

Seriously. I love H&K products but I would NEVER buy a 1911 from them if they made one.

Its would be like buying a 1969 GTO Convertible made by BMW...sick and wrong.

Springfield, Colt, Kimber, Wilson...

:D

Edit: I like the "Goat" more than the ST. :)

[Mark Sman]

Speaking of spending craploads of money.

http://canadrance.free.fr/html/photos/1969GTOjudge.jpg

If you're goin to,

http://www.lesbaer.com/images/thund.jpg

Go the whole nine yards.

Les Baer and The Judge.

[Durandal]

:D

Classics...

[Geezah]

You could always go with SIG......SIG.....SIG......SIG.....SIG......?
GSR 1911

Blah.

Why would ANY gun owner who wanted to buy a 1911 buy a Euro knock-off?

Seriously. I love H&K products but I would NEVER buy a 1911 from them if they made one.

Its would be like buying a 1969 GTO Convertible made by BMW...sick and wrong.

Springfield, Colt, Kimber, Wilson...

:D

Edit: I like the "Goat" more than the ST. :)

Arrrhhhh.........why do my eyes burn......everyone should bow down and worship the SIIIIiiiiiiiiIIIIG :P I'm hooked on SIGs, can't help it but to each there own ;)

[Geezah]

Crap the picture wouldn't come out :|