Gen.Berlijn Dutch Army wants salute back.

[Hemaworstje]

Our highest military man in ranks states in his xmas receptionspeech states that he wants the salute back to officers in the Army.
Untill now we just say the dutch soldiers just say Hi or Howdy to a sergeant..also in Iraq, now to his opinion that looks unprofessional and undisciplined.
He did forbid the usual after work drinks (two alcoholic beverages) at the end of the day.
We do have a very professional disciplined army and soldiers, but hmm more "relaxed" due to our dutch way of living.

this is the dutch link;
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/30390441/Soldaat_moet_militaire_groet_in_ere_herstellen.html

Sorry , but can not give you an English translation since googling on Berlijn and military is hmm..you get the idea.

Now I am not a Dutch soldier, therefore no opinion in this matter, but curious to know what the average dutch soldier or officers thinks of it, and what the experience of the US soldiers is when they cooperate with foreign military.

[ed316]

Hi or Howdy to a sergeant

WTF??!!

We (USMC) are always told to salute Officers from countries the US government recognize. Not saluting an officer in the US military is an offense under the UCMJ

[Resevoir Hogs]

We (Canadian Army) alwasy salute our officers and officers of allied nations. Except pof course in the field where saluting an officer may be an invite to a sniper's bullet.

[ed316]

When in doubt whip it out (salute that is)

[CountZero]

When in doubt whip it out (salute that is)

heh until i read the last part of your sentence i almost thaought you were refering to ToF

:)

[navyLCDR]

We get a lot of foreign military here at the naval hospital. Some are just plain confusing to figure out. Luckily, i never run into them outside, but only in the buildings. In fact, the only time one tends to see saluting in the buildings is at a Captain's Mast.

[sp2c]

I heard somewhere that the problem was that the rules said something like 'salute everything that's higher then you' which made conscripts with notoriously long hair saluting telephonepoles and all that

lefty politicians got wind of it and canned the whole superiority/inferiority complex in the making.

I don't care either way salute, not salute, clap your heels, jump up and down on your head, whatever. I just don't like the idea that some disgrunted foreign officers could dictate dutch military doctrine so imo we should keep it like it is.

[1Cie GevGn]

I always salute higher ranks, they get a kick out of it and I get on their good side.

My favorite is always around the mess, they're all standing outside with sigarettes, I look for one who has his sigarette in his right hand, then salute him, he has to transfer the sig to salute.

If you're in a close unit you end up saluting and shaking hands in the morning, and during the rest of the day you act like a normal person ;) but when there's brass around, you salute ofcourse.

[szr]

I just don't like the idea that some disgrunted foreign officers could dictate dutch military doctrine so imo we should keep it like it is.Which disgruntled foreign officers would those be? Didn't read anything about them. The article just said some foreign officers don't understand the informal attitude of Dutch soldiers with regards to greetings.

[sp2c]

that's the only argument given to do this ... foreign troops think we're odd. Don't think that's really enough reason to change it back

we are odd!
end of story :)

[Hemaworstje]

no we are not odd, we are normal , the rest of the world is odd, just a matter of perspective.

[Kekkonen]

that's the only argument given to do this ... foreign troops think we're odd. Don't think that's really enough reason to change it back

we are odd!
end of story :)

But not alone. Saluting higher ranks is not done in Sweden either in general. Some smaller units that wants to feel special does it however.

[dez000]

Crazy Dutch! (God I love 'em)

[Bulabash]

Saluting is obsolete, so is the distinction between officers, NCO and privates. This is Napoleonic BS in my eyes especially these days. Better off would be everyone to start of as private and get promoted on merit and not on years studied etc...

I only salut ppl i respect and that has to be earned. I dont expect others to salute me either.

[sp2c]

yep same here, if the good general were to walk in I choose to salute because he's awesome but it's not a given thing

[Roaming East]

Had a female NCO set her hair on fire once when a Maj rolled out to the smoke pit. She popped a salute but had a cig in her mouth and when her hand went up it bopped the cig into her well producted hair. Poof a quick little flame up and a funny smell afterwards. Best day i ever had in the military

[sp2c]

best argument for saluting yet :D

[cagey veteran]

I would be curious to know the years served in the military by those who area agianst saluting and think the the officer/nco system is outdated.
It is what it is and it is good. Imagine that you are sharing a basecamp with a Dutch unit ( or such a unit, as there are other discipline horror shows out there), and they walk around not saluting, hands in pockets, and longish hair, earings and the like, and cigs hanging out their cakeholes, and garbage blowing around. Keeping continuity in the "force" can be tricky, while the Canadians are picking up garbage and the Marines are crapping behind anything that downwind, and the Legionairres are painting rocks, and the dutch don't have there hats on, Brits are marching in pairs,..........etc... etc.........................

[sp2c]

I would be curious to know the years served in the military by those who area agianst saluting and think the the officer/nco system is outdated.
It is what it is and it is good.

it is what it is indeed ... and over here you don't have to salute so that argument goes both ways


Imagine that you are sharing a basecamp with a Dutch unit ( or such a unit, as there are other discipline horror shows out there), and they walk around not saluting, hands in pockets, and longish hair, earings and the like, and cigs hanging out their cakeholes, and garbage blowing around. Keeping continuity in the "force" can be tricky, while the Canadians are picking up garbage and the Marines are crapping behind anything that downwind, and the Legionairres are painting rocks, and the dutch don't have there hats on, Brits are marching in pairs,..........etc... etc.........................
the fact that we don't have to salute someone every other second does not mean we live in garbage dumps!
If you actually go to a Dutch camp you'll find it very clean and you'll find very diciplined soldiers inside ... they just don't have to salute every officer that wanders past

[Roaming East]

Dont think the Officer concept is outdated, just the way its implemented. In the USAF i REGULARLY see junior enlisted guys who have more experiance AND more education having to serve under a rosy cheeked butter bar. Seems a little weird to me. Dont know how it is in the other branches but if you dont have the leadership experiance or time and knowledge to get things done, why are you placed in charge over those who do and have the education background to boot? Maybe what im suggesting is a more refined way of picking officers such as (in a technical career field) enlisting people and if after 2-3 years you show you have the stuff you go to OCS and bar up.

And for those interested yes i did go to college (duh) and am also enlisted. The USAF doesnt feel my Degree in PoliSci is technical enough to do my job. (though a simple history degree is...)

[Bulabash]

been in the Army now for sixteen and a half years if that answers your question. I was talking mainly about the Army I'm in (Belgian) ill not be as pretentious as to tell other countries how to run their army (sadly unlike Our minister of defence).

[Digital Marine]

Didn't know they didn't have to salute in the Dutch Army, i think it should be done. But the American salute with the palm down. Looks more professional. (In my opinion)

[gafkiwi]

Yeah I believe there is a time and a place for saluting...
"Remember men your saluting the Commission he holds not him." a CSM told me once, there are officers who hold the respect of their men and would get a salute without delay and also things like the units regimental colours.
It doesn't help when you get some little rupert(officer) young and old who live's for making O.R.s salute them.
A short story from WWII in the desert (true or not funny anyway), Gen Montgomery whilst reviewing a parade of soldiers, observered a group kiwi soldiers passing his front when they did not salute him he turned to their C.O. and said, "Your men just marched pass me and did not salute me!!??" to which their C.O. replied "Don't worry sir give'm a wave and they'll wave back."
As for palm up or palm down in a salute(digital marine) 6 or one 1/2 dozen either way but...
I believe it originated from Medievil days When 2 knights would meet and as a sign of respect would raise the visor of their helmet with their master hand to (a)show their face and (b) show that their up turned palm held no weapon.
But hey when your on your JNCO cse, you have to sit through someones presentation on "The Origin of the Salute " you sometimes pick up nebulous info for times like these

[Robbie]

Didn't know they didn't have to salute in the Dutch Army, i think it should be done. But the American salute with the palm down. Looks more professional. (In my opinion)

That is the way the Dutch salute.

[sp2c]

are you serious?

I thought it was done with the shoulders (the higher you shrug the more important the guy) and a faint mumbling sound along the lines of 'sup boss, I'm still drinking my coffee so leave mee alone' or is that just airforce?

[Bulabash]

^^ love that one ;)

[Digital Marine]

That is the way the Dutch salute.

Really? awesome, thanks!:)

[Royal]

Never had a problem with Cloggies saluting me when I've worked with them and I've never had a problem saluting them either...

[Atlantic Friend]

that's the only argument given to do this ... foreign troops think we're odd. Don't think that's really enough reason to change it back

we are odd!
end of story :)

Aren't unions allowed in the Dutch Army ?

[Digital Marine]

Never had a problem with Cloggies saluting me when I've worked with them and I've never had a problem saluting them either...

Cloggies? is that their nickname?:lol:

[Hullebullen]

But not alone. Saluting higher ranks is not done in Sweden either in general. Some smaller units that wants to feel special does it however.

We were taught to salute with an accompaning Good morning, Major or Good day, Colonel. It was especially difficult when you were on your way to or from the mess hall because you'd always run into some unknown officers and you would have to squint real hard with those eagle eyes to see the rank sign on the collars and then salute and pray that you didn't say Good day, Major to a Lt.colonel...:lol:

[sp2c]

Aren't unions allowed in the Dutch Army ?
yes I think there are four?

but they're useless

[ed316]

yes I think there are four?

but they're useless

that's nuts, only in Europe

[sp2c]

that's nuts, only in Europe
what the hell are you talking about?

[ed316]

what the hell are you talking about?

unions in the military like a workers union, correct?

[sp2c]

unions in the military like a workers union, correct?
yes ... as in people who take care of the individual soldiers rights and needs, just like every other profession.

what's so nuts about that (besides the fact that they're relatively useless)??

[ed316]

yes ... as in people who take care of the individual soldiers rights and needs, just like every other profession.

what's so nuts about that (besides the fact that they're relatively useless)??

I was in the USMC and that's why I said" only in Europe". Can't really get away with something like this in the states.

[sp2c]

I was in the USMC and that's why I said" only in Europe".

I don't get it, what does the USMC have to do with anything?


Can't really get away with something like this in the states.
can't get away with what?

having a union for soldiers?

why not, are they somehow lesser then the other Americans??

[ed316]

I don't get it, what does the USMC have to do with anything?

can't get away with what?

having a union for soldiers?

why not, are they somehow lesser then the other Americans??

The military here is looked after by the government so no need for union bosses. A soldier here is not looked upon the same as say a welder or some other trade. I'm not knocking your system it's just different.

[sp2c]

I'm not knocking your system it's just different.
allright guess I took that the wrong way, sorry about the tone :(

but still I'm interested in how you guys do things so I'll just ask one more quick question if you don't mind answering it


The military here is looked after by the government so no need for union bosses. A soldier here is not looked upon the same as say a welder or some other trade.

does that go for all government institutions like cops, firemen etc. etc.?

[ed316]

allright guess I took that the wrong way, sorry about the tone :(

but still I'm interested in how you guys do things so I'll just ask one more quick question if you don't mind answering it


does that go for all government institutions like cops, firemen etc. etc.?

They have unions, they are on more of the local and state government. but the Military is your life for whatever amount of years you are in. That's why you can get in trouble for not soluting an officer. The US miliatry is it's own world. You are a Marine or Soldier 24/7

[sp2c]

same here ... but you're dutch first and dutchmen have the right to have a union

it's the principle that matters ;)