Video of russian soldiers "breaking in" ceremony.

[mustamato]

http://www.*********.com/elements/russia/russ%20soldiers.wmv

It´s a couple of years old, from 2000 I think. The site it comes from is
pretty sick so I wouldn´t recommend to make a visit there if you don´t
want nightmares tonight. Claimed to be from Serghginsky pretorian guard.

[Uninen]

Could you tell what happens in it? :| Before i DL and watch..

[Herrmannek]

Could you tell what happens in it? :| Before i DL and watch..

Bunch of old idiots is biting new/green soldiers

[Javehn]

Ah , that's pretty old video . But i think that was OMON unit . That raises a problem of almost every single draft army (and proffesionals) in the world . The relations between old soldiers , and newbies . In Russian Army this called "Dedovshina" . I presume that you had it also in Sweden , Mustamato , even in a much lighter versions .

[Uninen]

Oh yeah.. watched it now.. they showed that in 2200 news many years back.. :|

[Herrmannek]

Ah , that's pretty old video . But i think that was OMON unit . That raises a problem of almost every single draft army (and proffesionals) in the world . The relations between old soldiers , and newbies . In Russian Army this called "Dedovshina" . I presume that you had it also in Sweden , Mustamato , even in a much lighter versions .
True..Here in Poland we call it Wave, young soldiers are called Cats and older soldiers Grandpas. It's forbiden here by law, and there is few cases of jail snetences for it...

[Jack Mehoff]

What's the point of beating up new conscript recruits? I got slap in the head and shove in the sternum when I was basic, but a full front kick and round house kick in the stomach? Save that for the boxing ring and combat.

[Javehn]

Ah , that's pretty old video . But i think that was OMON unit . That raises a problem of almost every single draft army (and proffesionals) in the world . The relations between old soldiers , and newbies . In Russian Army this called "Dedovshina" . I presume that you had it also in Sweden , Mustamato , even in a much lighter versions .
True..Here in Poland we call it Wave, young soldiers are called Cats and older soldiers Grandpas. It's forbiden here by law, and there is few cases of jail snetences for it...

Youngies or chongies , opened wide , shockers - new soldiers .
Fathers - sargents , and granpas - first sargents , or sargents first class.

[mustamato]

Well, I really can´t say that we have anything similar in Sweden. The only
thing is that the older conscripts that train you don´t respect you because
you don´t know anything yet. But we of course didn´t get beaten. If some-
one would hit me I would kick his ass, regardless of who it was, and I think
most other swedes would as well. We simply don´t have the same culture
as the russians were sick **** like that is just "ok I must take this now, but
then I´ll do the same to the new guys".

Or "breaking in" ceremonies are way more civilized. Such as standing in a line and
undressing, and then taking on the army boxer shorts for the first time, thus becoming
a recruit in the defence forces.

[Uninen]

What's the point of beating up new conscript recruits? I got slap in the head and shove in the sternum when I was basic, but a full front kick and round house kick in the stomach? Save that for the boxing ring and combat.

You think that this was unnessacery? Or brutal..

Ill give you a link..

http://www.*********.com/chechenya.html

This is what their enemy does.. so if you dont have the stomach or your under age, do not watch! its from some darkest corners of hell what you will see in there..

Dont say that i didnt warn..

[Javehn]

shove in the sternum

Pretty painfull kaka . We would get those on medic lessons , to check if the soldier is conthios .

[mustamato]

Oh yes, we had a POW-exercise ones. We were out in the field and were
all really tired and hungry. In the middle of the night we were dragged up
and they said that we were now prisoners, got a hood on the head and got
our hands tied. 5 hours I think it was, the officer told us to stand, sit down
in painfull positions etc etc, then he went around and slapped us with a stick
then and then. Not that hard of course but one of the guys in my squad
became really pissed of :)

The only time I can remember when I was "hit", and I understood the symbolic
reason behind it so I didn´t really mind. But I can say that it was the longest 5
hours in my life. Actually I didn´t even understand that it was 5, i thought 2, maybe
3, and that time was running so sloooooooow.

[Jack Mehoff]

What's the point of beating up new conscript recruits? I got slap in the head and shove in the sternum when I was basic, but a full front kick and round house kick in the stomach? Save that for the boxing ring and combat.

You think that this was unnessacery? Or brutal..

Ill give you a link..

http://www.*********.com/chechenya.html

This is what their enemy does.. so if you dont have the stomach or your under age, do not watch! its from some darkest corners of hell what you will see in there..

Dont say that i didnt warn..

I've been to that site at least 100 times. There's also www.rotten.com

[Marmot1]

Heh and they call chechens ANIMALS... for me that video shows also ANIMALS...

[Jack Mehoff]

shove in the sternum

Pretty painfull kaka . We would get those on medic lessons , to check if the soldier is conthios .

I've been practice martial arts for a couple years and I can't recall how many times i got kick in the balls. NOW, that's painful

[Javehn]

That if you don't have balls of steal ! :)

[Dennis G]

Would you say that hazing is common

Vid from parafrog.com http://www.parafrog.com/index2.shtml#

[Uninen]

Would you say that hazing is common

Vid from parafrog.com http://www.parafrog.com/index2.shtml#

Heres the url to the file, on Cable/DSL quality:

http://www.parafrog.com/video/broadband.wmv

[4LPH4 B3T4]

Would you say that hazing is common

Vid from parafrog.com http://www.parafrog.com/index2.shtml#

Heres the url to the file, on Cable/DSL quality:

http://www.parafrog.com/video/broadband.wmv

Kewl vid! More of those???

[Trident-za]

Damn, some of those chechenya videos are a bit sick. Whats the point f releasing **** like that? It certainly can't help their cause in terms of world opinion.....

[Uninen]

Damn, some of those chechenya videos are a bit sick. Whats the point f releasing **** like that? It certainly can't help their cause in terms of world opinion.....

They release them to show off to other terrorists, and they film them in the first place to get their "kill money".

[GazB]

Interesting that this is just in Russia that this hazing happens... I guess the word Hazing must be Russian then?

I have seen some pretty disgusting vids of lots of different groups of young men... American soldiers, American Frat parties, canadian soldiers, canadian frat parties, British soldiers, British private schools, soccer teams, rugby teams etc etc. Eating each others vomit, shoving bottles and broom handles where they certainly don't belong... but this is a Russian problem of course... those uncivilised Russians... :roll: :roll:

[George W. Bush]

A lot of gay **** is filmed in an "amateur" fashion these days because that is what sells. Perhaps you have watched the wrong tape?

[One?]

I saw a documentaary on the history channel about new recruits and they showed secenes like that. It was sick.


One of the "grandfathers" tells a new recruit to do something. And then another grandfather tells him not to. So he got beat up by both for not obeying their orders.

[RomanS]

Look, lets get something straight here!

What you saw on the video was a Interior Troops from Safrino. Dedovshina is too overtalked about. I ****in hate hearing some young puppies from some 245th motorized company, how hard his life is.
How evil grandfathers beat him up with a stool. Or kicked him when he was acting like 14.

What the **** do they think army is? Dedovshina was in our forces since the early days of Peter the Great's Navy. Accept it wasn't in the form you hear or see from other chicken **** mommy boys. An older soldier, or an officer gives you hard time, so that you learn what life is about when you slip into your greens.

What the **** happens to you when you get jumped by druged up gang of armed beards somewhere in Shali or be it Tbilisi. They will not scream at you to drop and give them 20, or kick you in your groin. They will blow your brains out of your skull, or if you managed to survive the blast, they will just cut your head off. You ain't worth **** if you can't move, hear or see to them.

By learning the pain, anger and constant pressure- you will get use to it, and learn how to ignore it.
But going further like "bayonet bath" "Drying crocodiles" or the famous "Piano crunching" is called Criminal Torture. And is punishable by law.

There were cases even in MVD schools where officers would go too far on the discipline factor, so the cadets ends up in the hospital. Thats where we have to take this **** into FSB and other proper Agencies. The cowards will be punished.

But sorry, a little punch in a face, or kick in the stomach thats far from what you will get into once you deploy into a place where you are hated.

We always said "тяжело в учениях, легко в бою"
It's hard in training, but easier during the fight.

There is nothing wrong with this video. Some of the units from Internal Spetsnaz, goes even farther for fun. They all love it.

Let the blood on your face, be your pride and dedication.

[Truthsayer]

"ok"

[Dennis G]

Damn, some of those chechenya videos are a bit sick. Whats the point f releasing **** like that? It certainly can't help their cause in terms of world opinion.....

the Daniel Pearl execution vid was disturbing

[DE_Six]

Would you say that hazing is common

Vid from parafrog.com http://www.parafrog.com/index2.shtml#

Blood wings!

From what I heard from BTDTs, there is hazing, but it's nowhere as brutal as what is in the nausea.com video. It sounds more like college hazing, involving lots of alcohol. Sense of humor mandatory. Then there are traditions like Blood Wings, that you never hear about, and anyway it would only offend so many people it. Different worlds...
I've been through hazing at the faculty and on the rugby team. When it's done intended on integration, it's usually good fun. Only sometimes, it can slip out of control.
I remember when the Airborne Rgt hazing tapes came out. The anti-military had a field day with those... :roll:

Wankers. (the PC pundits, not the Airborne Rgt)

[Marmot1]

Sorry, I understand that you train to beeing touch and hard in combat, but what is on this video looks for me like a group of sick sadist who should be in prison not in any combat unit.

Your "expalation" do not justify this. Giving hard time to recruit is OK, but you should do this in civilized way not by jumping on his stomach. Sorry even ANIMALS are not so cruel intentionarly. Those sadist seems to enjoy this,they are sick and should be treeted in mental hosptal not keept in army. There is no justification for such behavior no mater how hard you will try permski... or maybe you defend Dedovshina becouse you are one of such retards who enjoy torturing ppl???

[Jack Mehoff]

I don't care who it is. If somebody kick me, i'll swing back...HARD. I don't see the correlation between beat the **** out of a private make good soldiers

[Uninen]

I don't care who it is. If somebody kick me, i'll swing back...HARD

:roll: Somebody hasnt got a clue about military it seems.. anyhow, what is "Army Reserve" alike? Cause if you what you do and actually mean it, it seems that you guys dont have discipline of any sort..

[Jack Mehoff]

I don't care who it is. If somebody kick me, i'll swing back...HARD

:roll: Somebody hasnt got a clue about military it seems.. anyhow, what is "Army Reserve" alike? Cause if you what you do and actually mean it, it seems that you guys dont have discipline of any sort..

I grew up with 4 brothers and I've been doing martial arts for the last 4 years. Don't you think I know what is it feel like to get kick in the stomach and balls? What the **** is that have anything to do with producing good soldiers?

So if i go out and machinegun a bunch of civilians, does that make me "hardcore" killing machine?

If i want to fight, i'll go to a bar and get drunk. I don't ****ing need to beat up some privates to boost my self esteem.

[Uninen]

LoL, no.. but have to remember.. that military isnt about individuals.. but is about the group.. also.. within the group, theres bound to be plenty people that have not ever been puched, nor have they ever punched anybody..

But that was some kind of ****ed up ritual like the ones with drunken US troopers in civ. clothes punching the god damn paratroop wings to theirs chests.. until they bleed, and more.. :cantbeli:

[Jack Mehoff]

This is like saying go beat up your kids so they learn how to be "tough". It turns out most those kids grow up to be outcast crazy lunatic. I'm sure Uninen speaks from his personal experience.

[DE_Six]

LoL, no.. but have to remember.. that military isnt about individuals.. but is about the group.. also.. within the group, theres bound to be plenty people that have not ever been puched, nor have they ever punched anybody..

But that was some kind of f*** up ritual like the ones with drunken US troopers in civ. clothes punching the god damn paratroop wings to theirs chests.. until they bleed, and more.. :cantbeli:

I don't follow you, you justify the beating of young privates as a form of preparation, but at the same time, you deem the Blood wings to be some kind of "f**cked-up ritual"? Funny, weren't you the one speaking of learning to endure the pain, the sacrifice for the country and all that when it comes to Russian soldiers breaking bricks with their heads (which has no more training value than pinning the "Icecone" straight in the flesh)?
It's a way of "celebrating" an achievement, the embodiement of the spirit, in a way.
"Until they bleed"...yeah, Russian soldiers break bricks with their heads 'till it bleed, but I didn't see you call that f**ked-up. Quite the opposite, you saluted the achievement.
If you're gonna judge, try being consistant.

[Uninen]

But that was some kind of f*** up ritual like

:roll: What i ment was these both were "f*** up rituals".. sorry if you didnt get that.. :|

[George W. Bush]

That Jump Wings video looked like a fun time!

[mustamato]

Interesting too see that some actually defends this sick ****. Well, as said
earlier, if someone hit me I would whoop his ass. Not necessarily instantly,
but maybe a knife in the back later in some dark alley, I would get my
revenge alright. The russians dedovshina is a joke that produces poor soldiers,
here we don´t believe in that kind of "training". It was the same thing with the
Iraqi army. Lazy officers and conscripts that pumped each other ass during
the nights and were kicking the **** out of each other.

Yeah and what happened to the Iraqi army in the war recently? The only
time I saw or heard anything of them was when they deserted. The only
ones taking up the fight seemed to be non-regular-army fedayeens. For
you that defends this crap, you might want to consider why armies that
doesn´t have crap like this in their ranks always are winning over the ones
that do. And yeah, they probably have some kind of ceremonies in all armies,
but those in the western world are not even comparable. As the american
video, those getting the nail in their chest (or whatever it was) didn´t exactly
seem to be in some hell, they were laughing and enjoying a good party.


There is no justification for such behavior no mater how hard you will try permski... or maybe you defend Dedovshina becouse you are one of such retards who enjoy torturing ppl???

Yeah I wonder too.

[Argo AdAm]

By learning the pain, anger and constant pressure- you will get use to it, and learn how to ignore it.
How do you explain that some soldiers commits a suicides and died because of this kind of "training"?


We always said "тяжело в учениях, легко в бою"
It's hard in training, but easier during the fight.
But this sentence has nothing to do with "dedovshina"


There is nothing wrong with this video. Some of the units from Internal Spetsnaz, goes even farther for fun. They all love it.
For fun? In spetsnaz ? Russian best soldiers? :cantbeli:
How do you call someone who loves to cause pain? Hard soldier or sadist?

It's "funny" how some Russians on this forum are always able to explain everything what is wrong with Russian army, even that what is clear for everyone - crimes.

[Tengu]

I've been practice martial arts for a couple years and I can't recall how many times i got kick in the balls. NOW, that's painfulYou can buy protecting for that mate. Just iches like hell :) .

[UkrainianAmerican]

I dont wanna generalise, but Marine Corps have something similar according to a high school bud of mine. He did 3 years with them, and for pain desentising (or something to the extent) each marine would get a good punch to his face as he was sleeping and was expected to report his rank etc.

[perdurabo]

I've been practice martial arts for a couple years and I can't recall how many times i got kick in the balls. NOW, that's painfulYou can buy protecting for that mate. Just iches like hell :) .
Tengu if something iches you that means you should go and have a bath! long one! rofl

[Jack Mehoff]

I've been practice martial arts for a couple years and I can't recall how many times i got kick in the balls. NOW, that's painfulYou can buy protecting for that mate. Just iches like hell :) .
Don't worry. I'm well protected.
Believe it or not. Somebody once kick through and broke a cup with minimal damage. I'd be in a world of hurting if it wasn't for that cup.

p.s. I alway buy extra large cup since my package is quite huge.

http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/cup1.jpg

[Sergei]

Well, based on my experiences, "dedovshina" is highly overinflated by some lazy momma boys who entered the military, but decided it is some sort of vacation resort or summer camp. It is NOT!
Superior officer should not waste any time to deal with everyday life in a military unit such as who is cleaning the dishes or who is washing up the barracks. He has got more important matters to do.
This duty is fulfilled by senior sergeants or sergeants which in a conscript army happen to be soldiers serving for over a year.

I can't judge about modern army but in the days of the old USSR, fresh conscripts were assigned a certain duties on a regular basis such as helping the cook, cleaning barracks (and I mean cleaning them, not mopping the the floor), fetching mail, fetching other necessities for every-day life of the army unit.
Now some of the lazy asses thought that instead of polishing shoes or soaping and washing BMP's they could sleep under one or simply go AWOL to a local disco club to get girls instead of doing a duty of a soldier.
Those soldiers were beaten quite enough to understand what they did wrong.
Some of them never understood and those were the one who complained the most and sent their mommas crying letters that everybody is abusing them. You will not rely on people like that to back you whenever the dangerous times arrive.
Army teaches responsibility, duty and honor to serve your country, not to be a slacker or momma boy. You've got to earn respect and once you've done that noone will ever point in your direction and say that you are a "slacker". However, that was back in the old USSR army when we stood tall and proud and ready to do our duty.
However, I hear a lot of stories of pure sadistic nature now in our so-called "ukrainian army" where people are beaten up by OFFICERS (now that is a dereliction of the duty) just for fun and entertainment.
That's why I put "ukrainian army" in the brackets, some of the officers, who are a core of any army shouldn't be in the army but in prison doing their time. When you have the core of the army corrupt and drunk and loving it to prove something with a fist knowing a person can't hit back because of the rank, this is one sick military establishment.
But that's the way things are.

[mustamato]

Sergei. Isn´t the whole point with military training that the soldiers should
be trained to be soldiers? A rifleman should not be a excellent cook or dishwasher,
he should be out in the forest training combat and nothing else. I sometimes
wonder if not my 10 months were more usefull in the terms of learning appropriate
ways to fight, than 3 years in the russian army were most of the time seems to
be in the barracks and doing stuff that is not very usefull on the battlefield.

And when russian soldiers leave their barracks they are sent to a warzone
without proper training. Or to go save some truck with beer in a lake, or are
sent out in the field to be farmers. What´s the point with a army where
the soldiers are not taught how to fight on a modern battlefield?

[Russian Texan]

Mustamato, you are completely missing the point. There are certain duties in the military, in fact most are, that are not glamorous but have to be done by someone. I do not know much about European militaries so I am not going to make any comments but it is hard for me to believe that they do nothing but combat exercises 24-7. Who cleans your toilets, who cooks your food, etc.?
"Dedovschina" always existed in the Soviet/Russian military ever since Peter the Great times and chances are always will be there, it is part of the equasion. "Dedovschina" is meant to expose "weak lings" and shape them into soldiers, it simply makes people tougher because no one wants to go in a combat with a momma's boy and a wuss right next to them...
It is very complicated topic and there are arguements for and against it but nevertheless, like I have said before, it is part of the Russian military. Granted there are some extreme cases that are nothing but pure sadism but overall situation is hugely eggagerated and twisted by "mothers commities".

I have a question: how are they going to make me mop the barrack's floor in your country's army if I just don't feel like doing it?

[George W. Bush]

Is this dish-washing and cleaning BMPs during basic training, during advanced individual training, or based on rank?

[Sergei]

I have a question: how are they going to make me mop the barrack's floor in your country's army if I just don't feel like doing it?

rofl
First, they will ask you kindly: "Sir, would you please mop the floor, sir!"
If that doesn't work, they will offer you cash to do the work.
If that doesn't work, they will hire some sort of civilian worker like bimbo Pamela Anderson, and she will do the cleaning while the rest of the soldiers will ogle her butt.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work in Soviet/Russian/Ukrainian army. The soldier will have to do everything by himself, and that includes ironing your shirt and doing your laundry, cleaning shoes and sewing ones undercollar for the parade uniform. There is no housekeeping nor any wife to do it for you while you are in the military.

[mustamato]

http://www.amf4.mil.se/article.php?id=5539

"A day in the swedish army" (the [] is my comment). There are
no "ordinary days" in the army, and it can differ from day to
day and from unit to unit, but it´s about something like this:

06.00 Wake up and breakfast
In the morning it´s a hurry. You must take care of yourself, brush your
teeth, wash yourself and take care of your equipment. Take care of your
bed and clean in the barracks. The cleaning is done together. Breakfast
is in the conscripts dining room. [And the personell there are civilians
that make your food].

07.30 The day "in service" begins
An officer takes over command of the unit for the day, and starts the
exercise, this can be teoretical lesson or some shooting on the firing
range or whatever.

10.15 Physical training
Usually running.

11.30 Lunch
Either at conscripts dining room, or out in the field [in this case the soldier
either makes his own food, get it done by special conscripts that are
trained for that, or by the civilian personell in the regiment that drives it
out to you]. If in the barracks once a week you can go and leave your
dirty clothes and get new ones. The personell washing your clothes are
civilians.

12.45 Exercise
Usually what has been trained in teorethical classes during the morning.
In example how to operate a radio, which is then trained practically.

17.00 Dinner
Same thing as with the lunch, either the exercise continues after this, or
the soldiers are free rest of the evening. If not free (and in the barracks)
the service usually continues to 22. When free the soldiers may have
civilian clothes and go do something in town or whatever. If out on a field
exercise it´s patrols, watchduty and all those things.

[Dmitri]

Believe me its all the same in the US military, we helped cooks, cleaned and mopped everything, did all our clothes, even washed drill sgts' car a couple times. :D Most of that is done on free time, which is pretty scarse, but Soviet military is not unique in that. We had peolpe stealing money and other items, fights (one guy was hospitalized with broken jaw after being beaten by 3 others), some stronger guys made other whimps do laundry for them or polish boots. But I'm sure that's in every military in the world, it is also survival of hte fittest.

[Russian Texan]

To mustamato

And you call that a military???!!!! :cantbeli: it is freaking boyscout camp....
Dude, you have just opened my eyes and changed my opinion about your country's "military".

I would love to see that "organization" in an actual combat enviroment.

[mustamato]

I would love to see that "organization" in an actual combat enviroment.

Well, swedish soldiers have been in combat in Bosnia in example. There
you go. And of course, the finns (which have the same system) vs. the
ruskies during world war 2. Do I need to refresh your mind on which side
had huge losses and which side had not? :)

And note that there are exercises from morning to evening. What do they
do in the russian army from morning to evening? Wash their officers cars
and farm a little to get food :lol: Must be effective soldiers :roll:

[Russian Texan]

Combat in Kosovo?
Dear sir, combat was/is in Afganistan, Iraq, Chechnya, etc.
Police duty phase that you participated in Kosovo does not qualify as a combat.
It is not a military, it is a defense force that is bound to their hometowns and serviced by civilians. Basically what you have is your very own version of "minutemen", there is nothing wrong with that but it is "junior varcity."
That comment about finns in 1930s is sooo irrelevant.
BTW who is going to do your laundry, cook, etc. during war times?

[Dalleer]

some stronger guys made other whimps do laundry for them or polish boots. But I'm sure that's in every military in the world, it is also survival of hte fittest.

Yeah, but it's just that armies like that tend to get a very bad image of themselves broadcasted...

Now, of course there are cases like that in our armed forces as well, but if it would be as "open" as in some countries alot of people would start seriously considering civil service or complete abandoment of the whole service (meaning that here you'd go to jail).

An army shouldn't be about "survival of the fittest", believe me.

[Uninen]

mustamato,

You got cleaners in Swedish Army? rofl

[Uninen]

An army shouldn't be about "survival of the fittest", believe me.

Yep..

It shouldnt, and it isnt.. as "the chain is as strong as its weakest link.." ;) If somebody is having troubles, his mates help him.. :slap:

[mustamato]

Combat in Kosovo?
Dear sir, combat was/is in Afganistan, Iraq, Chechnya, etc.
Police duty phase that you participated in Kosovo does not qualify as a combat.
It is not a military, it is a defense force that is bound to their hometowns and serviced by civilians. Basically what you have is your very own version of "minutemen", there is nothing wrong with that but it is "junior varcity."
That comment about finns in 1930s is sooo irrelevant.
BTW who is going to do your laundry, cook, etc. during war times?

Can you read? Do you understand the difference between Bosnia and Kosovo?
I suggest that you take a look at the Operation Oluja-video at militaryvideos.net
And you are retarded if you don´t think that they targeted UN soldiers
and that the UN soldiers didn´t shoot back. I assume that you do
anyway, so I suggest that you check your facts about that. It is not for
nothing the swedish batallion in Bosnia was dubbed "the shoot back
batallion" by the british´UN-soldiers. And the british commander Sir
Michael Rose has written debate articles where he has held the swedish
soldiers as good examples of good conscript soldiers. And geeee, who should
I trust must, him (former chief of 22th SAS Regiment) or you? :roll:

What you don´t seem to understand is that swedish soldiers are trained to
take their own initiatives, it is even encouraged. In a conscript army the true
strength is within each individual and his skill, not a collective that deserts or are
killed by their own as in the russian army. It is not for nothing the russian army
is such a disaster and that they are moving away from conscription.

________________________________

By the way, a booktip for you RussianTexan, Anthony Lloyd´s ”My war
gone by, I miss it so”, a veteran fron Northern Ireland and the first Gulf
war, he has this to say about the swedes he met in Bosnia:

”The men inside (the APC) might have been UN but they were playing by
a completely different set of rules. They were Swedes; in terms of
individual intelligence, integrity and single-mindedness I was to find them
among the most impressive soldiers I had ever encountered. In Vares
their moment had come.”

[Dalleer]

If somebody is having troubles, his mates help him..

Now that's the right talk!

[mustamato]

mustamato,

You got cleaners in Swedish Army? rofl

Would you have wanted to serve a year as a cleaner when cleaning is
something you can learn to do in 10 minutes? No? Then what is the point
of having conscript cleaners that do nothing else? Of course the conscripts
wash their own clothes out in the field, but not in the regiment, there you
can do better stuff, like actually learning something. There are conscripts
that are teached to be cooks and so forth of course. But they only show
their skills during field exercises. Back in the regiment it´s all civilian personell.

And all to my knowledge Finland has a whole bunch of employed civilian
personell on the regiments as well. Such as those making the food.

[Uninen]

mustamato,

I was meaning that did you or did you not clean your own barracs etc..? Cause we sure the hell did.. that was called as Siivous Palvelu..

And sometimes in the morning we shoveled snow.. had it rained in the night.. and during weekend we did all kinds of mirc. jobs that really werent that "military" related.. and of course there was this "virka-apu" thing, which usually just ment tons of "Nakki hommia".. :cantbeli:

[mustamato]

mustamato,

I was meaning that did you or did you not clean your own barracs etc..? Cause we sure the hell did.. that was called as Siivous Palvelu..

And sometimes in the morning we shoveled snow.. had it rained in the night.. and during weekend we did all kinds of mirc. jobs that really werent that "military" related.. and of course there was this "virka-apu" thing, which usually just ment tons of "Nakki hommia".. :cantbeli:

I wrote


06.00 Wake up and breakfast
In the morning it´s a hurry. You must take care of yourself, brush your
teeth, wash yourself and take care of your equipment. Take care of your
bed and clean in the barracks. The cleaning is done together. Breakfast
is in the conscripts dining room. [And the personell there are civilians
that make your food].

And this was of course done daily because all had their boots on all the time
so it became dirty as hell immediately. We didn´t have to clean the officers
rooms atleast, only the hall outside their rooms. The cleaning inside their
rooms was made by civilian personell. And there is a platoon on the regiment
that is one "standby" (I know that you have the same **** in Finland, it´s
called Beredskap here), the platoon usually did nothing more than waited for
some plane to crash, some old man to get lost in the forest and so forth. And
while waiting they usually did all kinds of crap, such as washing the regimental
chiefs car and so forth.

[Uninen]

How about WC:s? Did you clean them or did the cleaners do that? And what do you mean by "officers room"? The regular force officers office or NCO:s / Officers Students rooms?

[mustamato]

How about WC:s? Did you clean them or did the cleaners do that? And what do you mean by "officers room"? The regular force officers office or NCO:s / Officers Students rooms?

Well, we used the WC:s and showers so we washed them as well. My
platoon had a WC compartment on the right side of the hall, and the
neighbouring platoon had one on the left side. Of course we always used
the one we were not supposed to use, so that we didn´t have to clean our
own that often :) We were 3 platoons only on our floor of the barracks
so we didn´t have to wash that much. It took 20 minutes each morning,
I became a real badass at mopping floors while others became real
badasses at cleaning toilets.

We didn´t wash the officers offices. The reason was probably because they
didn´t want us running around inside there.

[Javehn]

Mustamato , does that scedule is for training soldiers also , or it's just for the soldiers that finished their basic training ? It is the second , right ?
Another thing, after 17:00 , there is nothing in scedule . What does that mean ??? What is happening after 5 pm in your army ?
I must say , that this scedule reminds more of day in the work , then a day in the army .

[Jack Mehoff]

Well. Somebody has to clean the latrines, barracks, police call the area and those jobs usually done by private Joes. We do KP once in a while, but we are not allow to cook or even touch the food because U.S. military don't want untrained privates to food poison everybody.

[Javehn]

Well, somebody has to clean the latrines, barracks, police call and those jobs usually done by private Joes. We do KP once in a while, but we are not allow to cook or even touch the food because U.S. military don't want untrained privates to food poison everybody.

That's just wrong . I understand that , and we also have something of that kind of meassures , but that's just wrong . Soldier should learn to do everything by himself . It's not just to be good soldier , every one should now how to do those basic things. Good soldier isn't only soldier who cleans his rifle perfect , and everything is is done for him . What kinda thing is that ? If a groop of soldiers are in a remote base , where you don't have any serving personell , what whould happend then ? Who would make food for the soldiers ?

[Jack Mehoff]

Yeah, we have a thing call MREs in the field. Cooking and working with food are done by trained Army cooks or civilians. Washing dishes and cleaning up are done by non-cook privates.

[mustamato]

Mustamato , does that scedule is for training soldiers also , or it's just for the soldiers that finished their basic training ? It is the second , right ?
Another thing, after 17:00 , there is nothing in scedule . What does that mean ??? What is happening after 5 pm in your army ?
I must say , that this scedule reminds more of day in the work , then a day in the army .

Well the "day at work"-comparison is quite good in one aspect. The
officers do not sleep in the regiment of course, the officers job is
just a job, they come to the regiment in the morning and they usually
end the day at 17. A 8 hour working day in other words. And as I wrote,
after 17 the soldiers either continue the exercise or they are free to do
what they want. If the soldiers have evening duty the day usually ends
at 22. And I can say that it was more 22 than 17 alright.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/guldburk.jpg
One of my army pics by the way, (no it´s not me, I took the photo), we
usually made our own food

And the officers doesn´t have to be there all the time. Like if the soldiers
have been on a exercise, and are just supposed to clean their equipment
the whole evening, they don´t need a officer around all the time, they can
do it on their own. The (conscript) NCO´s are in charge then.

[Uninen]

Cooking and working with food are done by trained Army cooks or civilians. Washing dishes and cleaning up are done by non-cook privates.

Yeah, this is how its in here also.. :)

[Jack Mehoff]

Cooking and working with food are done by trained Army cooks or civilians. Washing dishes and cleaning up are done by non-cook privates.

Yeah, this is how its in here also.. :)

But that only occured in basic training and AIT. When i got out OSUT to my duty station then everything are done by civilian and Army cooks. I still have to clean the barracks, latrines and police call the area though. I spend a lot of time in the motorpool and armory PMCS vehicles and equipments. The E-5 still have to do head-count in the chow hall.

[RomanS]

Mustamato,

don't take this too offensive, but I can't look at the Swedish military with serious face.

Yeah we all remember the losses of the Red army vs the Finns. But why are we going back to the days of a total different strategy, weapons, and training????

I mean if we decided to go back, do you remember what happened to the Swedish during Peter the Great? As I remember the history books, Swedenhad their asses handed back to them by Russians.

But again, why are we going back to where we weren't even in the nutsack.

We live in today, and lets take a look at today.

I've watched the videos of what you are talking about in Bosnia. Sorry but Sweden can't be compared even close to Russian military.
Good ol Russian Texan already gave you an exellent point about real combat. Afghanistan, Iraq, Chechnya

the rest, is not worth mentioning.

When was the last time Swedish forces participated in a massive engagement?
Russian Interior Troops, and special units fight every day in Chechnya. Gaining experience, learning on their mistakes, and puting all that knowledge into a new strategy of fight against guierilla warfare. We are no longer deploying mass ammounts of infantry, due to it's reconstruction at the moment. All the missions in Chechnya are performed by Interior ministery units, Airborne and Naval Infantry special teams.

They've been living in the combat for the past 8 years. The knowledge and experience they gained is actually - quite impressive. I would hate to see them engage against forces of lets say Sweden or Poland. Swedish and Polish troops - just DON'T have the experience in the nasty war like Chechnya. So the end result would be horrible for the Polls and Swedes. Our guys would walk over them like there is no tomorrow. Please don't argue, I've seen what a team from Vityaz or Sobr can do against blood thirsty gang of well trained terrorists.

Now lets see your troops(trained in the boyscout style army) take on our guys. Better get more back up, it will be a tragedy for you guys.

[Dalleer]

Now lets see your troops(trained in the boyscout style army) take on our guys. Better get more back up, it will be a tragedy for you guys.

I'm sorry to invade your little discussion here, but you do know that too much overconfidence _can kill you_ ?

Wasn't it Sun Tzu himself who once commented, that "underestimating the enemy is the mother of all **** ups", along the lines...

[mustamato]

And did Permskiiii actually read my whole post? By the way those were danes
in the video. I think Sir Rose´s words are a bit heavier than all of ours.
The reason to why you can compare with the ww2 is that the russians still have
the same respect of their conscripts, in other words none. The first Chechen
war showed this clearly, and Chechenya is not even a country, it´s part of Russia,
and still all those losses. Against lightly armed small-unit guerillas!

Hm, and let us not forget Afghanistan. Well personally I don´t care much of some
ruskie don´t believe in our concept, yours is a proven disaster so it´s more of
a compliment actually. I guess we just value life a bit higher here. And I don´t
know why you even drag in Poland in this. Yeah you "defeated" them in ww2
when you stabbed them in the back (twice). But the quality of the polish soldiers
were proven in places like i.e. Monte Cassino. Why do you even bother trying
to defend a concept that even your own officials are openly saying is a disaster?
Why are russian moving away from a conscript army now if it´s such a succes?

Just because you had your ass kicked and God know what you had to do on
your Sergeant when you was a recruit, it doesn´t mean that the system was good.
I´m quite confident in that you die just as fast by a bullet as a finn dies by
a russian bullet. If you have not deserted first that is, then you will die by a
russian bullet :)

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Piirrokset/SuomalainenLentolehtinenViholliselle1.jpg
Highly motivated russian conscripts, then... and now

[SeanAshi]

What is the death toll in Chechnya? Russian toll? Chechen toll?

[Dmitri]

Mustamato, I really wonder about you sometimes.

it´s part of Russia,
and still all those losses. Against lightly armed small-unit guerillas!
Obviously you have no idea about guerilla warfare. Look at US in Iraq, I would say the situation is pretty similar, now look at the losses! And I don't even wanna think about what would happen to Finns (or whoever you are) in Chechnya. So far not many guerilla wars were won. Vietnam, Chechnya, Iraq, all those places had plenty of conventional soldiers killed. The conventional war was won in Iraq, but hard times came when unconventional war started.

[Sorbas2000]

Look, lets get something straight here!

What you saw on the video was a Interior Troops from Safrino. Dedovshina is too overtalked about. I f*** hate hearing some young puppies from some 245th motorized company, how hard his life is.
How evil grandfathers beat him up with a stool. Or kicked him when he was acting like 14.

What the f*** do they think army is? Dedovshina was in our forces since the early days of Peter the Great's Navy. Accept it wasn't in the form you hear or see from other chicken **** mommy boys. An older soldier, or an officer gives you hard time, so that you learn what life is about when you slip into your greens.

What the f*** happens to you when you get jumped by druged up gang of armed beards somewhere in Shali or be it Tbilisi. They will not scream at you to drop and give them 20, or kick you in your groin. They will blow your brains out of your skull, or if you managed to survive the blast, they will just cut your head off. You ain't worth **** if you can't move, hear or see to them.

By learning the pain, anger and constant pressure- you will get use to it, and learn how to ignore it.
But going further like "bayonet bath" "Drying crocodiles" or the famous "Piano crunching" is called Criminal Torture. And is punishable by law.

There were cases even in MVD schools where officers would go too far on the discipline factor, so the cadets ends up in the hospital. Thats where we have to take this **** into FSB and other proper Agencies. The cowards will be punished.

But sorry, a little punch in a face, or kick in the stomach thats far from what you will get into once you deploy into a place where you are hated.

We always said "тяжело в учениях, легко в бою"
It's hard in training, but easier during the fight.

There is nothing wrong with this video. Some of the units from Internal Spetsnaz, goes even farther for fun. They all love it.

Let the blood on your face, be your pride and dedication.

You know what, you are crazy. To do such things ahs nothing to do with "they have to learn how hard life or a battle is"! Stupid bull****!!! Of cause you have Dedovshina in Russia since Peter the Great, but is it ok!? I just say RESPECT to other. You know why russian army is in such bad conditions: because you don't have any discipline. To beat younger soldiers means, that your seargents and officers also have no discipline, because they have to stop such things. Ather armies are as good and even better than russian, and that without Dedovshina. Many young russian make dersertion because of all the things that happen in the russian army.

[serbian boy]

Both Russian And American forces have had experiences with guerrilla warfare, America: Vietnam
Russia: Afghanistan

[Sorbas2000]

Combat in Kosovo?
Dear sir, combat was/is in Afganistan, Iraq, Chechnya, etc.
Police duty phase that you participated in Kosovo does not qualify as a combat.
It is not a military, it is a defense force that is bound to their hometowns and serviced by civilians. Basically what you have is your very own version of "minutemen", there is nothing wrong with that but it is "junior varcity."
That comment about finns in 1930s is sooo irrelevant.
BTW who is going to do your laundry, cook, etc. during war times?

Oh yes, and russian army is quiwr effective since many years ... first in afghanistan and now 2 times in chechniya. Maybe it's because russian soldiers are good farmers and cooks? To have well trained and effective army has nothing to do with: how hard your life in training is. If you hate the army and your seargents and officers, you don't kike to fight for them, isn't it!?

[RomanS]

What the **** do you mean Russian army right now is in a bad condition?

The reason we left Chechnya alone in the first war, thanks to great European ****s complaining how evil and brutal Russian invaders are.

FOR GOD'S SAKE you just can't ****in see Russia wining against Chechen fighters. NO WAY so you have to bitch bitch bitch bitch on violation of human rights.

You know how many generals, officers and other hated Yeltsin, because of the bull**** like -withdrawl. The biggest reason our guys had to turn around and stop fighting, is because our American friends threaten our government with - cuting off all the funds and financial help to Russia.

Everyone knows the reason. If we stayed in Chechnya, no money into Yeltsin's pocket from Bill. I was pissed like other thousands of my comrades. We didnt give a **** about Bill Clinton's money, and other european fags complaining about this war.

For Christ's sake, Chechens should be thanking you faggots for stoping Russia from erasing the ****hole off the map.
Do you even know anything about the last fights in 95-96????
Let me refresh your memory
BAMUT
Naurskaya
Komsomolskoe
Pervomaiskoe
Samashki
Vedeno

Our operators kicked the living fuk out of the brave "wolves", and sent them to their ****in allah.
Do you remember Kizlyar, Buddenovsk???
Now why would they go and take pregnant women as hostages, and entire village in Dagestan???

That to me is a show of loosing, and not doing so well. Why switch to the terrorist atacks? Because the Chechen animals were in shock, after our units wiped them one after another towards the 1996. And they switched to the new tactic, already popular in the world - called terrorism.

Who WON?????????????????????????????????????????????????

we lost between 5-6 thousand soldiers. They lost in 40,000s
Thanks to the drunk **** Boris Yeltsin, who sent young soldiers into the mess. He either lost a bet, or was way to ****in drunk to think about his discisions.

But Putin is the man. He looked at the mess in Chechnya and said : **** this, **** the world, and **** anyone who tries to stop us. COME AND TRY IT.
We are not leaving Chechnya, untill every single faggot muslim fighter is dead. We don't care about American money anymore, or human rights.
Let the human rights come and change it.

OH WAIT , i forgot.... THEY DID COME TO CHECHNYA TO STOP THE EVIL RUSSIANS

what happened?????

Russian OMON found their heads on the side of the road, and later a video tape with their execution by Arbi Baraev.
Poor souls, came to Chechnya to record the evidence of evil Russians, and got slaughtered by Chechens. O U C H

Yes, lets not forget Afghanistan

16,000 dead Soviets
1,000,000 + mudjahadins

OUCH part 2


But anyways, **** Europe and all them bitching assholes there. You would never beat RUSSIA, NEVER NEVER NEVER!!!!! Everyone tried.
Napoleon, Hitler..... keep going ****ers.

This is my last post on militaryphotos.net

I was thinking about keep posting, but assholes like you just don't deserve to see our beautiful weapons, gear and action.

GO **** YOURSELF

[Sorbas2000]

Well, somebody has to clean the latrines, barracks, police call and those jobs usually done by private Joes. We do KP once in a while, but we are not allow to cook or even touch the food because U.S. military don't want untrained privates to food poison everybody.

That's just wrong . I understand that , and we also have something of that kind of meassures , but that's just wrong . Soldier should learn to do everything by himself . It's not just to be good soldier , every one should now how to do those basic things. Good soldier isn't only soldier who cleans his rifle perfect , and everything is is done for him . What kinda thing is that ? If a groop of soldiers are in a remote base , where you don't have any serving personell , what whould happend then ? Who would make food for the soldiers ?

Sorry, what do you think the army is for: to learn how to clean a room or a toilet or to learn how to cook something to eat? Sorry man, normally you lran that from your parents when you are a kid. If you need the army to learn basic things then you or your parents made something wrong. Of cause you have to clean your room or the toilets when you are in the army, but it shouldn't take the whole day. And why to wash your uniforms, when you have washing machines, that can make it 100 times better and cleaner?

[Sorbas2000]

Well, somebody has to clean the latrines, barracks, police call and those jobs usually done by private Joes. We do KP once in a while, but we are not allow to cook or even touch the food because U.S. military don't want untrained privates to food poison everybody.

That's just wrong . I understand that , and we also have something of that kind of meassures , but that's just wrong . Soldier should learn to do everything by himself . It's not just to be good soldier , every one should now how to do those basic things. Good soldier isn't only soldier who cleans his rifle perfect , and everything is is done for him . What kinda thing is that ? If a groop of soldiers are in a remote base , where you don't have any serving personell , what whould happend then ? Who would make food for the soldiers ?

Sorry, what do you think the army is for: to learn how to clean a room or a toilet or to learn how to cook something to eat? Sorry man, normally you lran that from your parents when you are a kid. If you need the army to learn basic things then you or your parents made something wrong. Of cause you have to clean your room or the toilets when you are in the army, but it shouldn't take the whole day. And why to wash your uniforms, when you have washing machines, that can make it 100 times better and cleaner? And to be in field an to make your food for yourself or to play the whole day as a cook is something totally different.

[Javehn]

If you need the army to learn basic things then you or your parents made something wrong

Your parents did do something wrong , you ****ing piece of **** , and that would be you . Now get ****ing lost from this forum , run far and don't ever come back in your ****ing pathetic life in here . You will not teach me , or anyone here , what soldiers shouldn't do or not do , you have no right to live after your words , pathetic **** . Fuciing misserable computer geek , you will preach me or anybody else in here ? People in here that lived throwout much more then you saw in your computer games ? You know the sounds of bullets when they come near you ? Except of your computer games ? You know how is it like , when your friends got killed ? Ah , you misserable pathetic little **** ? Get lost from here , you are shame not only to your country , but to your parents.
You are the last person in here how to teach me to do something . At list learn not to double post , misserable cockroach . And i don't care that you 12 years old , if you can't think before post , that's a problem .

I am sorry guys for my reaction , but this prick is just pissing me off . Understand me on this .

[Sorbas2000]

If you need the army to learn basic things then you or your parents made something wrong

Your parents did do something wrong , you f*** piece of **** , and that would be you . Now get f*** lost from this forum , run far and don't ever come back in your f*** pathetic life in here . You will not teach me , or anyone here , what soldiers shouldn't do or not do , you have no right to live after your words , pathetic f*** . Fuciing misserable computer geek , you will preach me or anybody else in here ? People in here that lived throwout much more then you saw in your computer games ? You know the sounds of bullets when they come near you ? Except of your computer games ? You know how is it like , when your friends got killed ? Ah , you misserable pathetic little **** ? Get lost from here , you are shame not only to your country , but to your parents.
You are the last person in here how to teach me to do something . At list learn not to double post , misserable cockroach . And i don't care that you 12 years old , if you can't think before post , that's a problem .

I am sorry guys for my reaction , but this prick is just pissing me off .

[Sorbas2000]

If you need the army to learn basic things then you or your parents made something wrong

Your parents did do something wrong , you f*** piece of **** , and that would be you . Now get f*** lost from this forum , run far and don't ever come back in your f*** pathetic life in here . You will not teach me , or anyone here , what soldiers shouldn't do or not do , you have no right to live after your words , pathetic f*** . Fuciing misserable computer geek , you will preach me or anybody else in here ? People in here that lived throwout much more then you saw in your computer games ? You know the sounds of bullets when they come near you ? Except of your computer games ? You know how is it like , when your friends got killed ? Ah , you misserable pathetic little **** ? Get lost from here , you are shame not only to your country , but to your parents.
You are the last person in here how to teach me to do something . At list learn not to double post , misserable cockroach . And i don't care that you 12 years old , if you can't think before post , that's a problem .

I am sorry guys for my reaction , but this prick is just pissing me off .

Shut up Schlomo! I did my military education when you even wasn't born and your parents still where in Russia...so before your family left your lovely russian country to israel! So don't call me a pathetic f***er, you bastard. Who is the computer gaming kid, you or me? You don't know a **** about life. And by the way, this is an open forum and there have to be people that doesn't tell bull**** all the day like your lovely russian rambos do all the day. they try to tell people white is black and black is white! so shut up!

[Javehn]

****ing wannabe, don't pretend , i don't have nothing to say to you anymore . Wanna argue with someone , go stand infront of mirror . I hope Hood will take care of his forum .

[mustamato]

f*** wannabe, don't pretend , i don't have nothing to say to you anymore . Wanna argue with someone , go stand infront of mirror . I hope Hood will take care of his forum .

I don´t really get your standpoint good old friend. Is beating the crap out
of conscripts good or bad? You are not really defending dedovshina are you?

[Javehn]

Mustamato , what i am saying is long ago have nothing to do with the topic . Just sad that there are people like this one out there . To the subject i am against it .

[Sorbas2000]

Mustamato , what i am saying is long ago have nothing to do with the topic . Just sad that there are people like this one out there . To the subject i am against it .

what is your problem, I just said that Dedovshina is something that should not exist in 21st century and look at your reaction against me! cool boy, you realy understand to argue! Respect to you!

[Herrmannek]

f*** wannabe, don't pretend , i don't have nothing to say to you anymore . Wanna argue with someone , go stand infront of mirror . I hope Hood will take care of his forum .

I don´t really get your standpoint good old friend. Is beating the crap out
of conscripts good or bad? You are not really defending dedovshina are you?

Dedovshina or whatever call it isn't about hardening, and it never was, It's about breaking...If you lick shoes of the grandpas they will show you their good will and they leave you to take care of strongest characters in group who had mental strengt to resist humiliation...Grandpas will do all their best to show who realy rules there. If someoene will be stuborn long enough they will make him hell on earth by all means possible tho them...People who went throug such training are human wrecks or sadistic asslickers, from both kinds none implicates good soldier....

[Sorbas2000]

f*** wannabe, don't pretend , i don't have nothing to say to you anymore . Wanna argue with someone , go stand infront of mirror . I hope Hood will take care of his forum .

I don´t really get your standpoint good old friend. Is beating the crap out
of conscripts good or bad? You are not really defending dedovshina are you?

Dedovshina or whatever call it isn't about hardening, and it never was, It's about breaking...If you lick shoes of the grandpas they will show you their good will and they leave you to take care of strongest characters in group who had mental strengt to resist humiliation...Grandpas will do all their best to show who realy rules there. If someoene will be stuborn long enough they will make him hell on earth by all means possible tho them...People who went throug such training are human wrecks or sadistic asslickers, from both kinds none implicates good soldier....

Right you are...these russian guys even try to sell you **** as gold. Dedovshina is made for and from sadistic wrecks. This has nothing to do with military education. When I was in the army, our seargents and officers also tried to show, who is the man! But we had to do 50 situps or had to run for a while and it was ok. But what hasshown in this video and what is known about russian army, is something from the middle ages...and see what's happening in chechniya and afghanistan...russians love their army...they love their army so much they even try to buy them free from military services! :lol:

[mustamato]

When I was in the army we had a couple of cadets from Latvia and Lithuania.
These had been trained in their countries, with "Soviet-style" education, which I
assume featured some kind of dedovshina. They was in my company to do their
military basic training and learn it the "western way". They then got swedish
officers training and were sent back to their own countries to teach out more
effective ways of doing things than the Soviet-era officers had been teaching
them.

These cadets were real badasses. Really hardcore. During a surviving exercise
we had once, they were eating frogs and stuff like that they found, something
a swede never would do even if he was starving to death. One of them cut open a
rabbit and let the blood drip on to his face. Really primitive, most of us were
just disgusted. But then again these were not the "average soldier" in their
countries, these were officer cadets. One thing I noted was that they loved
to make a show all the time (such as with the rabbit), kind of "macho".

This training program has been going on a couple of years now, the first time
it was held it was kind of a schock for both the swedes and the foreign cadets.
One of our officers told us when he asked one of these cadets how their first
week had been, "good, no one has hit us yet", and the swede like "why would
we hit you? What´s the point?".

[Sorbas2000]

When I was in the army we had a couple of cadets from Latvia and Lithuania.
These had been trained in their countries, with "Soviet-style" education, which I
assume featured some kind of dedovshina. They was in my company to do their
military basic training and learn it the "western way". They then got swedish
officers training and were sent back to their own countries to teach out more
effective ways of doing things than the Soviet-era officers had been teaching
them.

These cadets were real badasses. Really hardcore. During a surviving exercise
we had once, they were eating frogs and stuff like that they found, something
a swede never would do even if he was starving to death. One of them cut open a
rabbit and let the blood drip on to his face. Really primitive, most of us were
just disgusted. But then again these were not the "average soldier" in their
countries, these were officer cadets.

This training program has been going on a couple of years now, the first time
it was held it was kind of a schock for both the swedes and the foreign cadets.
One of our officers told us when he asked one of these cadets how their first
week had been, "good, no one has hit us yet", and the swede like "why would
we hit you? What´s the point?".

Yes, two different kind of worlds. BTW, why you write "Festung Europa" in your avatar. That doesn't seems to be swedish!?

You know what, if the russians would know how the western style of army living is, they never would glorify this **** of Dedovshina. Military issomething to learn respect, discipline and comradeship. There are rules in the army that have to be followed...but never, brutality never works. That is my point of view after 36 years in this world.

[mustamato]

Yes, two different kind of worlds. BTW, why you write "Festung Europa" in your avatar. That doesn't seems to be swedish!?

You know what, if the russians would know how the western style of army living is, they never would glorify this **** of Dedovshina. Military issomething to learn respect, discipline and comradeship. There are rules in the army that have to be followed...but never, brutality never works. That is my point of view after 36 years in this world.

Festung Europa is german, "Fortress Europe". You know, EU is closing its
borders, it´s becoming like a fortress. By the way I found some pictures
of my old company, note the faces of these guys (and girls), they all seem
quite happy, they don´t do it because some Sergeant kicks them down in
the water, they do it because it´s a challenge, and of their own free will.

http://www.ing2.mil.se/images/local/isvak_0012.jpg

http://www.ing2.mil.se/images/local/isvak_0052.jpg

http://www.ing2.mil.se/images/local/isvak_0061.jpg

http://www.ing2.mil.se/images/local/isvak_0044.jpg

[Herrmannek]

Yes, two different kind of worlds. BTW, why you write "Festung Europa" in your avatar. That doesn't seems to be swedish!?


Festung Europa is german, "Fortress Europe".

Must just plagiarised my location descriptor ;)

[serbian boy]

You guys, it's in every soldiers blood to show of, this is nothing new! I personally wouldn't want to get the **** kicked out of me by some guy who came just a year before me but you have to understand that in places such as Chechnya, Kosovo etc. There is no such thing as the Geneva Convention, the muslim terrorists will do anything to get info out of you before your executed. You have to be able to take a beating because thats what you're probably gonna get, the Ustashi in Croatia would grab muslim or serbian soldiers cut off there ears or noses or lips and pour salt on them, this was a favourite tactic to extract info from a POW. You have to be able to take the pain. :|

[Sorbas2000]

You guys, it's in every soldiers blood to show of, this is nothing new! I personally wouldn't want to get the **** kicked out of me by some guy who came just a year before me but you have to understand that in places such as Chechnya, Kosovo etc. There is no such thing as the Geneva Convention, the muslim terrorists will do anything to get info out of you before your executed. You have to be able to take a beating because thats what you're probably gonna get, the Ustashi in Croatia would grab muslim or serbian soldiers cut off there ears or noses or lips and pour salt on them, this was a favourite tactic to extract info from a POW. You have to be able to take the pain. :|

hey serbian boy, maltchi. ti ne snaesh nishto. abe ti kakvo iskash? ti na kolko godini si? 16 ili pomalko?

Oh yes, and Dedovshina helps you to take the pain if someone cut off your ears or eyes....and by the way, didn't the chetniks do the same?

[Jack Mehoff]

Yes, two different kind of worlds. BTW, why you write "Festung Europa" in your avatar. That doesn't seems to be swedish!?

You know what, if the russians would know how the western style of army living is, they never would glorify this **** of Dedovshina. Military issomething to learn respect, discipline and comradeship. There are rules in the army that have to be followed...but never, brutality never works. That is my point of view after 36 years in this world.

Festung Europa is german, "Fortress Europe". You know, EU is closing its
borders, it´s becoming like a fortress. By the way I found some pictures
of my old company, note the faces of these guys (and girls), they all seem
quite happy, they don´t do it because some Sergeant kicks them down in
the water, they do it because it´s a challenge, and of their own free will.

image

image

image

image

You should have see how happy I was in my MOPP gear in Fort Irwin in the summer with 115*F/46*C temperature. Then next year I went to Fort Carson for 2 weeks AT with 4feet of snow and subzero temperature. You don't have to expose to cold weather to get **** up. Hot weather can **** anybody up really quick.

[Sorbas2000]

Yes, two different kind of worlds. BTW, why you write "Festung Europa" in your avatar. That doesn't seems to be swedish!?


Festung Europa is german, "Fortress Europe".

Must just plagiarised my location descriptor ;)

@both (Herrmannek and Mam

I know that "Festung Europa" is german. Aber warum nimmt ein Schwede eine deutsche Bezeichnung? You know what I mean?

[Sorbas2000]

Yes, two different kind of worlds. BTW, why you write "Festung Europa" in your avatar. That doesn't seems to be swedish!?

You know what, if the russians would know how the western style of army living is, they never would glorify this **** of Dedovshina. Military issomething to learn respect, discipline and comradeship. There are rules in the army that have to be followed...but never, brutality never works. That is my point of view after 36 years in this world.

Festung Europa is german, "Fortress Europe". You know, EU is closing its
borders, it´s becoming like a fortress. By the way I found some pictures
of my old company, note the faces of these guys (and girls), they all seem
quite happy, they don´t do it because some Sergeant kicks them down in
the water, they do it because it´s a challenge, and of their own free will.

http://www.ing2.mil.se/images/local/isvak_0012.jpg

http://www.ing2.mil.se/images/local/isvak_0052.jpg

http://www.ing2.mil.se/images/local/isvak_0061.jpg

http://www.ing2.mil.se/images/local/isvak_0044.jpg

very nice pictures! i have never been in sweden, but my father goes every year to norway or to seden for fishing...mostly to nothern part of norway. but my next holidays i am going to travel to sweden. very sympathic people...and i like swedish girls ;-)

[serbian boy]

Sorbas, I see you don't know anything, If you'd have learned how to use your head before you turned 12 you'd figure out that they probably won't cut off your ears in basic training. The point of this "training" is to introduce a soldier to be able to take pain while being in a situation where he really can't do anything, like if your a prisoner and your getting the crap beat out of you, you have to be able to hold out for a while and not show weakness so you won't have information extracted from you about where your buddies are, plans, strenght and so forth, any information that might be useful to the enemy to be able to make a plan to kill your friends. This is called limited force interrogation survival training.
Now here are some pics for you more series posters who use their heads:
http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/91/rustrain/b000706d.jpg
A Russian SFOR soldier fires his AK-74M Rifle.

http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/141/p08a/b02081a.jpg
http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/119/p12a/b01p121f.jpg
http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/119/p12a/b01p121e.jpg
http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/152/p04a/b02041h.jpg
http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/152/p04a/b02041a.jpg
http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/133/p12a/b02121a.jpg
http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/133/p12a/b02121e.jpg
http://www.nato.int/sfor/humanitarian/russians-day/phot4.jpg
Enjoy! :D

[mustamato]

Actually I think that is bull****, wether you are going to break or not during
interrogation is individual. To defend devoshina with "you might withstand
torture" better is just so naive. We had POW-exercises when I was in the
army, you can´t prepare for that, just do some stuff like getting your hands
tied and getting a blindfold and after 5-6 hours not have a clue of how much
the clock is and so forth. You can´t simulate the actual horror of knowing that
you will get a bullet in the head when they are finished with you.

If I were a ruskie soldier and had been beaten up by my NCO and I was
captured, I would sure as hell tell my captors everything they wanted
to know, and especially how they could find that NCO and what they could
do with him. But if I actually felt loyal to my buddies, then I would
try to resist and win some time for them.

[Jack Mehoff]

If they want to teach new privates how to enduring pain then give them boxing gloves and let them go at it for 3 rounds. Barefists is not fun because it's too quick.

This is better than beat up a bunch of defenseless privates.

[serbian boy]

Yeah but then there in a situaution where they can defend themselves. Most times this isn't possible in an interrogation situation :slap:

[mustamato]

http://www.soldf.com/images/s_faltjacka90.jpg

Swedish standard issue BDU jacket, look at the right pocket, there where
the nametag should be there is place for one 5.56 round. It´s kind of "not
learnt but still known by everybody". That´s where you have your last 5.56
when your ammo is out and everything is fooked.

The best way to not get interrogated is to not get captured? It´s not like
some dudes like the Chechens would actually release you afterwards.

http://w1.402.telia.com/~u40208159/images/kj97/kj14.gif
Swedish coastal jaegers "fenderfight". Man against man, not some
sergeant kicking a defendless private on the balls

[Sorbas2000]

Sorbas, I see you don't know anything, If you'd have learned how to use your head before you turned 12 you'd figure out that they probably won't cut off your ears in basic training. The point of this "training" is to introduce a soldier to be able to take pain while being in a situation where he really can't do anything, like if your a prisoner and your getting the crap beat out of you, you have to be able to hold out for a while and not show weakness so you won't have information extracted from you about where your buddies are, plans, strenght and so forth, any information that might be useful to the enemy to be able to make a plan to kill your friends. This is called limited force interrogation survival training.
Now here are some pics for you more series posters who use their heads:
http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/91/rustrain/b000706d.jpg
A Russian SFOR soldier fires his AK-74M Rifle.

http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/141/p08a/b02081a.jpg
http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/119/p12a/b01p121f.jpg
http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/119/p12a/b01p121e.jpg
http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/152/p04a/b02041h.jpg
http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/152/p04a/b02041a.jpg
http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/133/p12a/b02121a.jpg
http://www.nato.int/sfor/indexinf/133/p12a/b02121e.jpg
http://www.nato.int/sfor/humanitarian/russians-day/phot4.jpg
Enjoy! :D

Are you stupid or what. YOU didn't understand my words. How can Dedovshina train you to be a hero or a rambo on torture or if some crazy arabs cut off your extremeties???? To get beaten during your military education doesn't mean that you can withstand pain on torture, you kid. You realy have ssen too much videos!

[Jack Mehoff]

Torture is more like mental thing. I got into a lot of fistfights in my life doesn't mean I can stand getting my eyes gouge out with a hot metal

[Russian Texan]

Wow, quite an interesting thread here :)

I am yet to see an answer to my question about making me do things that I do not want to do.

What you people fail to realise is that Russia is a "different planet", so is China, so is Middle East... By applying your "western" standarts to those places you are just showing your age/stupidity/poor education.

You see there are two types of people: cattle and those who don't like to follow.
Cattle are the rules/laws obiding people.
Discipline is real easy to enforce on cattle.
Most of the people in Europe are cattle and it is not an insult, it is an observation. They don't break laws/rules and always do what they are told.

Now lets look at russians. Why do you think democracy doesn't find too many supporters over there? Russians are constantly looking for the ways to beat the system, break rules and laws, it is in the Russian blood...
Look at the people russians praise the most: Ivan the Terible, Peter the Great, Catherine II, Stalin... brutal but strong, able to lead and keep russians under control.

So let me repeat my question: How is Swedish sergeant is going to make me do something that I do not feel like doing? Let's say he tells me to go and get the ammo crate and I say: You need it go get it yourself, what is he going to do?

None of you has a clue abou Russian army but all of you are quick to make idiotic comments and assumptions. Did any of you know that same "grandfathers" who would obuse newcomers and make them do their chores are the same soldiers that would voluntarily stay over after their two years expire so they can go into combat instead of inexperienced "green ones". The "grandfathers" term expired but he stays over to save lives and teach momma's-boys who are yet to turn into soldiers.
"Grandfather" is a russian version of western sergeant, if you will.

The single fact that it existed for several centuries should give you a clue that may be people in the Russian military don't mind against it.

It is the same as in jail: if a newcomer behaves like a men and stands up for himself - he will be treated accordingly, if he is a coward and a whiner - it's a different story, he will be everyones bitch...

Military is a machine that is designed to break civilian/human in you and turn you into soldier that is ready to kill at any time...

There are men with cojones and there is "swedish cattle"....

[Jack Mehoff]

Article 15, extra duty and take away 2 weeks pay are more painful to me than getting beat up.

[Russian Texan]

Article 15, extra duty and take away 2 weeks pay are more painful to me than getting beat up.

It might be painful to you butt it is not applicable in Russia.

[Jack Mehoff]

extra duty, no pay=no beers for two weeks. How could any man can live through that?

[serbian boy]

No it increases you pain tolerance level.

[Russian Texan]

'Cause in Russia they get extra duty, no pay and no beer just for being in the military :lol:

On a serious note there are conscripts and "kontraktniki". Coscripts get called in, "kontraktniki" volunteer and get paid.
"Dedovschina" is mostly rear/inactive units problem.
Just to give an example: some combat engineers unit in Alaska or supply battalion in Alabama would have that problem.

[Tommy Gunn]

What's the point of beating up new conscript recruits? I got slap in the head and shove in the sternum when I was basic, but a full front kick and round house kick in the stomach? Save that for the boxing ring and combat.

You are into boxing. You know that you can't get good unless you learn how to take a hit.

[Jack Mehoff]

I don't mind beating up someone or get beat up. But i'm not interested in beating up defenseless recruits

[Russian Texan]

I don't mind beating up someone or get beat up. But i'm not interested in beating up defenseless recruits

To determine who is going to ba a "bitch" and who has character to be a man.

[Tommy Gunn]

I You see there are two types of people: cattle and those who don't like to follow.
Cattle are the rules/laws obiding people.
Discipline is real easy to enforce on cattle.
Most of the people in Europe are cattle and it is not an insult, it is an observation. They don't break laws/rules and always do what they are told.

I agree. The word in my vocabulary is "Sheeple" (sheep + People = Sheeple)

Military is a machine that is designed to break civilian/human in you and turn you into soldier that is ready to kill at any time...

ditto

There are men with cojones and there is "swedish cattle"....

I agree. Of course when was the last time that Sweden had to fight a real war?

Alot of these guys fom western europe seem rather weak IMHO

[Tommy Gunn]

It shouldnt, and it isnt.. as "the chain is as strong as its weakest link.." ;) If somebody is having troubles, his mates help him.. :slap:

That is true, everyone helps each other. But it is also true that the military tries to weed out the weak and unfit in basic training. These get discharged out of the service.

[DE_Six]

I don't mind beating up someone or get beat up. But i'm not interested in beating up defenseless recruits

To determine who is going to ba a "bitch" and who has character to be a man.

This thread is quite interesting. I fully agree that North America/Western Europe and Russia are worlds apart. Different cultures, different mentalities. And not only in the military. In the other thread about Canada and Russia, the posted article also tells a lot about our differences.


To determine who is going to ba a "bitch" and who has character to be a man

Don't take this the wrong way, but this sounds a lot like how things work in prisons here in North America. Leaders and bitches, and the epithet is labelled within the first few days upon arrival. A jungle by all means, with all the abuses it involves. Pardon my western sensibility, but I wouldn't want the military to function this way. I agree soldiers have to be tough, but this kind of ruthless hierarchy, well, I miss the point of it.
Brotherhood and dedication can be achieved without this kind of "natural selection". No matter the circumstances, a hierarchy will appear, A-type personnalities will rise and lead, even in a strictly controlled, disciplined context. Establishing who's Alpha and who's not doesn't require you let loose the thugs and the bullies.
I got smoked in QMB but I'd have followed my PL or my SL anywhere. If I was one of those Russian conscripts getting beaten up senseless in the middle of the night by drunken NCOs, you can bet that later, in combat, I wouldn't risk a bullet to save them. I'd let them rot on the battlefield. I don't know if I convey the sense of what I say, but these are the worst things a soldier can think, IMHO. Letting a brother down, anytime, under any circumstances is unacceptable. Yet, the way they treat their recruits, I'd understand if they got fragged later on, if loyalty gave way to resentment. And I don't see how this can be good for an army.
But then again, this is my western view. I guess things are really different over there.

Btw, to whoever said something about resistance to interrogation: bollocks. No one can resist torture indefinitely, no matter how "hardened" they are. Everybody breaks at some point. Everybody. The only way not to talk is to know nothing. Or die.

[Herrmannek]

Wow, quite an interesting thread here :)

I am yet to see an answer to my question about making me do things that I do not want to do.

What you people fail to realise is that Russia is a "different planet", so is China, so is Middle East... By applying your "western" standarts to those places you are just showing your age/stupidity/poor education.

You see there are two types of people: cattle and those who don't like to follow.
Cattle are the rules/laws obiding people.
Discipline is real easy to enforce on cattle.
Most of the people in Europe are cattle and it is not an insult, it is an observation. They don't break laws/rules and always do what they are told.

Now lets look at russians. Why do you think democracy doesn't find too many supporters over there? Russians are constantly looking for the ways to beat the system, break rules and laws, it is in the Russian blood...
Look at the people russians praise the most: Ivan the Terible, Peter the Great, Catherine II, Stalin... brutal but strong, able to lead and keep russians under control.

So let me repeat my question: How is Swedish sergeant is going to make me do something that I do not feel like doing? Let's say he tells me to go and get the ammo crate and I say: You need it go get it yourself, what is he going to do?

None of you has a clue abou Russian army but all of you are quick to make idiotic comments and assumptions. Did any of you know that same "grandfathers" who would obuse newcomers and make them do their chores are the same soldiers that would voluntarily stay over after their two years expire so they can go into combat instead of inexperienced "green ones". The "grandfathers" term expired but he stays over to save lives and teach momma's-boys who are yet to turn into soldiers.
"Grandfather" is a russian version of western sergeant, if you will.

The single fact that it existed for several centuries should give you a clue that may be people in the Russian military don't mind against it.

It is the same as in jail: if a newcomer behaves like a men and stands up for himself - he will be treated accordingly, if he is a coward and a whiner - it's a different story, he will be everyones bitch...

Military is a machine that is designed to break civilian/human in you and turn you into soldier that is ready to kill at any time...

There are men with cojones and there is "swedish cattle"....

Do you really believe in different planet?
I can almost agree with you Russian Texan...Because your country doesn't conscripts cream of your community, like in Poland few years ago and even now( situation here is better but still isn't ideal), we and you just take to army maddogs(criminalist, plebs, people with weak or non education, just brainless or sensless idiots), if you as a CO/NCO don't beat crap out of them they will think you are weak and will act accordingly. This has nothing to do with mental streng if you hit them: they will whine, but if you turn back to them they will attack. When eventualy some of them became NCOs they wan't pay back for harsh moments, but can't propagate their angry up to people who did harm to them, so they bit **** out of greens to show them who is on top NOW...
This works same everywhere..And it not produce better soldiers, because good soldier is mainly mix of morale and will to fighit for cause, Dedovschina or Fala(Wave) they are the same things under different names, and its "tradition" is far beyond Polish or Russian history. Ussualy it also don't help to go trough tortures, because tortures has many additional threats with were not "trianed" at unitary training. Main effect of it is reinforcing or planting belief that viciousness and sadism is only way to go. Now you understand why most nations afraid more being freed by Russians than occupied by Nazis...

[Javehn]

My 20 dinars . Russian menthality is very different then Europian , or any other menthality on that matter, just more harsh people then Europians , or Americans , so they see those things (and many things ) in different colors . You can say that every thing get's harsher in Russian menthality , shaped by their history . This problem , batchering new soldiers or trainies by "old" soldiers is something that exist in every conscript army in the world , more or less , depends on menthality of that country . Due to Russian menthality , this problem takes it's unic form , a harsher form then you can find on other countries .
We had the same problems probably until 7 years ago , until it was officialy recognized and banned . All the things that come to humiliate soldier just don't work , it got prooven in our army . The performance of soldiers rized up . It's one thing to stronger the moral and spirit of soldier as part of training , and completely other thing when sargent comes beeting soldiers after lights out , just for fun , when the soldiers terribly tired . Or to keep a toilet sit warm for an older soldier. Or to hold the door of the bathroom while old soldier makes a kaka. That doesn't proove nothing . It's not also about geeving a old soldier respect , it's just pure humiliation . That cannot be tolerated . By the way , President Putin himself declared this as a problem at 27.11.02 , and ordered his Ministry of Defence to taka care of this problem . (To the Russian readers - http://www.vif2.ru/static/521/112873.html ) .

There is other thing , and it is "giving a respect to older soldier" , to understand that he deserves respect , and respect you give him this day , and it can be somewhere humilliating to you , in the future you will receave it by younger soldiers when you will be older soldier yourself . In my places that was - young soldiers took all atching shifts , they are the ones to send to messhole and kitchen to do dirty works , they are the ones who cleaning the barracks every day , this sort of things . Or "exeptance rituals" to the unit , something that soldiers understand and get with a smile .

[16 OBr SpN]

we and you just take to army maddogs(criminalist, plebs, people with weak or non education, just brainless or sensless idiots),

Hey ****head, which group do I fall into!!!??
What the **** do you think when you post **** like that!?

I'm tired of disrespectful pricks like you on this forum!!!
What the hell!!!

I wish there was some IQ check or something before people could actually post here!

Достали уже эти козлы!! Суки гнойные!!

[Herrmannek]

we and you just take to army maddogs(criminalist, plebs, people with weak or non education, just brainless or sensless idiots),

Hey ****head, which group do I fall into!!!??
What the f*** do you think when you post **** like that!?

I'm tired of disrespectful pricks like you on this forum!!!
What the hell!!!

Where I showed disrespect?...
Tell me, or better give me statistics if such are available, who is conscripted to Russian army..including data about :
education level
alchochol abuse
criminal past
drug addiction
mental fitness
etc.

If you will take a look at that data you will see that in army lands BIG amount of people who shouldn't get there.

I wish there was some IQ check or something before people could actually post here!

Достали уже эти козлы!! Суки гнойные!!

Indeed IQ check is good idea...You first....

[16 OBr SpN]

Where I showed disrespect?...
Tell me, or better give me statistics if such are available, who is conscripted to Russian army..including data about :
education level
alchochol abuse
criminal past
drug addiction
mental fitness
etc.


1) I don't come to this forum to prove anything to anyone.

2) I'm going to ask you one more time: Which group do I fall into under your "classification"?

[Kicius]

16 OBr SpN - i think you misunderstood Herrmannek.
He didn't want to insult anybody.

Even if it at last happened.

I don't want to talk about "dedovschina" - but in Polish army - Fala (Wave) is important for the discipline and is a tradition.

But when there is a some stupid m****r with mental disorder in the unit - it may be disaster. Somebody dies or get severely injured. And "Fala" becomes a greatest enemy of the young soldiers.

And I agree with RussianTexan - my sergeant used to say - "Army is not nail factory"

[Marmot1]

we and you just take to army maddogs(criminalist, plebs, people with weak or non education, just brainless or sensless idiots),

Hey ****head, which group do I fall into!!!??
What the f*** do you think when you post **** like that!?

I'm tired of disrespectful pricks like you on this forum!!!
What the hell!!!

I wish there was some IQ check or something before people could actually post here!

Достали уже эти козлы!! Суки гнойные!!

Cool down he did not said that EVERY soldier is retard but that there is a lot of ppl who shouldn't be in army becouse they do not fit psychically or mentally, in poland it is unusual to have someone with higher education in army as a conscript since most of inteligent ppl avoid army in one way or another i.e when you study and you finish studies you dont have to go to army ,except some specialist (mainly technicians and doctors who have obligatory military training but very short)) of course you can always volounter but salary is so low that not many ppl highly educated want to do so... I am talking about grunts since oficers are another story you must have higher education (university) to become 1Lt. in poland. But what you shown with your behavor and by insulting others on this forum I'm not quite sure which category you fit, i hope not to this mentioned by herrmanek...

[tony6]

Actually-I know few guys who are professional soldiers and they like it (also they like their salary) but they serve in airborne unit which is far best than "regular" army.
And you would be surprised marmot-more and more people WANT to go to army.

[Herrmannek]

Where I showed disrespect?...
Tell me, or better give me statistics if such are available, who is conscripted to Russian army..including data about :
education level
alchochol abuse
criminal past
drug addiction
mental fitness
etc.


1) I don't come to this forum to prove anything to anyone.

2) I'm going to ask you one more time: Which group do I fall into under your "classification"?

1) I don't want You prove me this. Just check that data for your own knowledge, and share it if you'll find it in net. I checked data for Poland. It doesn't look good, It looks like disaster to me. I'm almost sure russian conscription isn't in better shape than polish :(...
1a) I think I wasn't clear enough..I didn't want to say that all Rusians or Poles who are conscripted are criminalist, gansters or whatever..but amount of such people is enough to prevail...
2) Rather none of the gruops mentioned in my previous posts, take a look at 1a). I'm sure you are to hot water boiled, calm down :)

[Argo AdAm]

[...]"Dedovschina" is mostly rear/inactive units problem.
Just to give an example: some combat engineers unit in Alaska or supply battalion in Alabama would have that problem.and

I don't mind beating up someone or get beat up. But i'm not interested in beating up defenseless recruits
To determine who is going to ba a "bitch" and who has character to be a man.

So "Dedovschina" is a problem or kind of training? ;)

I wonder why some guys here don't want to realize what is realy happening on these video.
Everything what I saw on this video has nothing to do with any kind of training nor teaching young soldiers to respect their older "brothers". Video shows only sick bastard who have fun beating others who can not defend. This kind of behaviour is typical of primitive people who have problems with their self-esteem and always have to prove to themselves how "tough"and "macho" they are. That's why they love situations when they are in authority and chose the weak targets like these frightened green cadets.

In my opinion every one word written here to defend "dedovsina" is in fact against Russian army and its professionalism.

Regards

[mustamato]

http://www.army.lv/English/Video/Video.htm

"Spetznaz "Vityaz'" ( from "Military secret" program) -Video file
devoted to the "madder beret" test. This test is organized in Internal
Security forces of the Russian Federation ( subordinate to Ministry of
Internal Affairs (MVD) and not part of Soviet/Russian Army)

Download (63,8 Мb)"

Download this one, it´s quite interesting. I don´t have any problems with
this one, since the soldiers are allowed to hit back as well. Or atleast try
to do it :) The server is kind of crappy, doesn´t work always and slow as
hell, so if someone could upload this on their own server?

[OldRecon]

http://www.*********.com/elements/russia/russ%20soldiers.wmv

It´s a couple of years old, from 2000 I think. The site it comes from is
pretty sick so I wouldn´t recommend to make a visit there if you don´t
want nightmares tonight. Claimed to be from Serghginsky pretorian guard.

And one wonder why there are reports concerning atrocities from the forces of the Russian federation in Chechenya?
(not in any way saying the Chechen guerillas are nicer guys for that matter).
With guys ingrained with that mentality out on ops in contact with civilans, and not expect disaster would be rather naive I think.
That such sub-cultures are alowed to thrive in a military unit, I think says quite a lot about the true authority (or rather lack of) of the officers in the unit depicted. And it's definitely not a show of good self discipline on the part of the "veterans". This is 100% rule of fear and not one based on common respect between the leadership and men.
Either the officers use those bullies as frontmen and a tool to establish moral superiority and authority over the rest of their men in the unit through fear, or they are to weak to challenge the unofficial authority behind the scenes of those bad asses.
Wouldn't surprise me if this is a unit where the officers have to watch their men closely in the field, with regards to taking themselves undesireable liberties, and who thus really heavily on the officers for unit cohesion and leadership also.

[Russian Texan]

[quote]Don't take this the wrong way, but this sounds a lot like how things work in prisons here in North America. Leaders and bitches, and the epithet is labelled within the first few days upon arrival. A jungle by all means, with all the abuses it involves. Pardon my western sensibility, but I wouldn't want the military to function this way. I agree soldiers have to be tough, but this kind of ruthless hierarchy, well, I miss the point of it.

You are right, it does sound a lot like a prison but unfortunatelly in some units it is this way.
The point of "dedovschina" is to make young recruits do things and follow the orders, give them basics of discipline, teach them respect. In some cases new recruits do not want to give up civilian in them, so it has to be literally beaten out of them. The reason dedovschina exists is because new recruits come into the military with an attitude and it has to be adjusted.
The thing is that the only thing 18-19 year olds respect and fear is the physical punishment.
Let's say you are young punk and an asshole riding on a bus. You are seating in the seat that says: "For pregnant women and elderly only". Now you see an elderly lady approach and politely ask you to let her sit in your place. Like I have mentioned before - you are a punk and an asshole on top of that, so you are probably would brush her off with some smart ass comment and remain seated. Now there is a 7 ft, 300lb guy is coming up to you and asking for the same seat, I bet your reaction will be quite different...

If you would ask a new recruit nicely to clean a toilet, keep in mind that Russian military unlike Swedish doesn't have houskeeping services, chances are that he, being fresh from civilian life and momma's cooking, is not going to do it, but if you puch him in a face and then ask to clean the toilet - he will be so much more eager.
The difference is that in the professional army you can influence soldiers by witholding their pay, in the conscript - you can't.
Anyway you look at it, the system works. It has been working since Peter the Great, that is why Russia is still on the map and russians speak russian :)

[duck]

Leadership should be based on respect and shared values, not fear and repression. What does it say about morale when some consript troops are allegedly trading their weapons for vodka in Chechnya?

[Russian Texan]

Leadership should be based on respect and shared values, not fear and repression. What does it say about morale when some consript troops are allegedly trading their weapons for vodka in Chechnya?

It says that they are individuals with no principals and shouldn't be in the military.

On the subject of respect:

In the mind of a 18-19 year old average russian conscript Respect = Fear. I am not speaking for the other countries where people like to follow rules and willingly obey the law but Russia is different.

I am just trying to imagine myself when I was younger in some European, let's say Swedish military.
A sergeant asks me to go and get the ammo crate, well I don't feel like it 'cause its heavy and it is still 6:30am... so I answer him: "Go f**k yourself, you need it - you get it." What is he going to do to make me go get that crate?

Same situation in the Russian military
If I ever say something like this to a "grandfather", next moment I'll be picking up my teeth from the floor and if he asks me to go get the crate again, trust me - I'll run faster then the wind.

It's different but it works and unless you are willing to sponsor 1.5 mill professional Russian military, you'd just have to accept "dedovschina" as a fact of life.

[KOHTPAKTHuK]

http://www.army.lv/English/Video/Video.htm

"Spetznaz "Vityaz'" ( from "Military secret" program) -Video file
devoted to the "madder beret" test. This test is organized in Internal
Security forces of the Russian Federation ( subordinate to Ministry of
Internal Affairs (MVD) and not part of Soviet/Russian Army)

Download (63,8 Мb)"

Download this one, it´s quite interesting. I don´t have any problems with
this one, since the soldiers are allowed to hit back as well. Or atleast try
to do it :) The server is kind of crappy, doesn´t work always and slow as
hell, so if someone could upload this on their own server?


Yes, keep watching our boys. Keep drooling, keep stroking, you will never have anything even CLOSE.

[DE_Six]

The difference is that in the professional army you can influence soldiers by witholding their pay, in the conscript - you can't.


True, it's not just cultural, the fact it's a conscription army also makes a difference. But we had conscription twice here in Canada, the US had it too, and none of those methods were employed.
What I'm questioning is not the goal, its the methods. Some trainees require more "attention" to motivate them, especially in a conscription army, but you can instill discipline without beating the **** out of them.
But I keep in mind that this happens in conscript, lower-echelon units. I have little doubt "high-speed" units like VDV don't have to resort to that kind of thing. Many armies have had conscripts until recently (France, for example), yet none of this happened. And Westerners being what we are ;) , you can bet the media would be on it if any of it happened anyway.
Unless of course, it is hazing, not discipline. I'm not quite sure what it is, yet, the way you talk about it ("you" being the Russians on the board). Some say it's discipline, some say it's hazing. If it's discipline, it's harsh, but maybe the circumstances call for it. If it's hazing, it's unacceptable by our standards, at least, neither in elite units nor in rear-echelon. You have a right to culturally differ :) . I know hazing is pretty standard in armies worldwide, but when it stoops to this kind of brutality, it becomes a problem. It exists everywhere, but not necessarily in that extreme form.
I think OldRecon summed it up very well.


It says that they are individuals with no principals and shouldn't be in the military.

Being said about conscripts, it makes little sense, doesn't it? Of course they shouldn't be in the military, they wouldn't if they had the choice.


keep in mind that Russian military unlike Swedish doesn't have houskeeping services

I hope you were just poking at Mustamato. I wouldn't want you to think that Western armies are soft. We have discipline too. :|


chances are that he, being fresh from civilian life and momma's cooking, is not going to do it, but if you puch him in a face and then ask to clean the toilet - he will be so much more eager.

You do realize that soldiers in western armies do not talk back and obey to orders without the need to punch them in the face, or even bring their paycheck in the conversation? Discipline can and does work without the physical use of force. I would be more inclined to obey and respect a DI who can scare me into doing whatever chore there is to be done without ever touching me, than someone who'd punch me straight up to force me in submission. I do not respect that kind of behavior. It is a lack of self-control and a clear sign of self-esteem issue and doesn't inspire respect, only terror.
I can't speak for Sweden, but here, if you refuse to obey an order or disrespect a superior, you're off to Edmonton (CF Prison
and Detention Barracks). This very prospect should be enough. This and good ole military discipline (smoking, extra PT and other menial sanctions), of course. And it yields very professional soldiers.

Again, only my Westerner .02$ Don't get me wrong, I'm not judging the Russian military as a whole, for I reckon your reality must be very different from ours if some of your fellow countrymen support, or even worse glorify this kind of practice, and that it's possible that such things are isolated incidents. I do, however point out that dedovshina does get a fair deal of attention here in the West (but you know that if you're from Texas :) ), often with alarming numbers at hand, numbers provided by Russian human rights association, some of them formed of conscript parents trying to get their sons out of the Army. If such groups exist, somewhere there must be a problem. Or maybe we just see a problem where you see normal situation. Perceptions being what they are. p-)


Yes, keep watching our boys. Keep drooling, keep stroking, you will never have anything even CLOSE.


You say that as if it was a bad thing. No offense, but we are very satisfied with our military's professionalism, despite their "lack" of Ramboesque bravado, thanks. As for the drooling/stroking thing, I will disregard out of decency. Take that somewhere else please.

[mustamato]

I am just trying to imagine myself when I was younger in some European, let's say Swedish military.
A sergeant asks me to go and get the ammo crate, well I don't feel like it 'cause its heavy and it is still 6:30am... so I answer him: "Go f**k yourself, you need it - you get it." What is he going to do to make me go get that crate?

Quite unlikely, swedes are loyal and civilized. But in case some dude actually
would say something like that (theoretically you know), he would probably
be sent for a long talk with his company officer to solve his attitude problem.

If he still would have the attitude problem there is disciplinary measures that can
be taken, like getting a fine, (in other words, not getting the daily money for say
14 days), not be allowed to travel home to have spiritually re-inforcing ***
with his girlfriend etc etc. If he still after this keeps having some sort of problem,
well then it´s his problem, cause the rest of them being loyal etc will probably
hate him, what whould happen them can´t be called dedovshina or anything
like it, just good old bullying.

And besides, we spend our time in the military to learn something, in contrast
to the russians that just are there. All to my knowledge there a day has 24 hours
in both Russia and Sweden. While the swedes train to fight from morning to evening,
the russians train how to save beer from lakes, how to wash their officers private
cars, make food for them, polish their shoes ~70% of the time etc.

It would be interesting to make a simple comparison. How many rounds does a
russian private fire during his conscription? Probably under 1000 during those
3 years?

[Russian Texan]

Quite unlikely, swedes are loyal and civilized.
Like I said - cattle, herd

But in case some dude actually
would say something like that (theoretically you know), he would probably
be sent for a long talk with his company officer to solve his attitude problem.
And how is that going to change anything?

If he still would have the attitude problem there is disciplinary measures that can
be taken, like getting a fine, (in other words, not getting the daily money for say
14 days), not be allowed to travel home to have spiritually re-inforcing ***
with his girlfriend etc etc.
spiritually re-inforcing ***
with his girlfriend etc etc. Dude, that is exactly why it is so difficult to take swedish military serious!

If he still after this keeps having some sort of problem,
well then it´s his problem, cause the rest of them being loyal etc will probably
hate him, what whould happen them can´t be called dedovshina or anything
like it, just good old bullying.
And the difference between bullying and dedovschina would be....?

And besides, we spend our time in the military to learn something, in contrast
to the russians that just are there. All to my knowledge there a day has 24 hours
in both Russia and Sweden. While the swedes train to fight from morning to evening,
the russians train how to save beer from lakes, how to wash their officers private
cars, make food for them, polish their shoes ~70% of the time etc.

It would be interesting to make a simple comparison. How many rounds does a
russian private fire during his conscription? Probably under 1000 during those
3 years?

Statements above are nothibg but ignorance. ;)

BTW I can assure you that I fire more rounds every month than an average swedish soldier, does this mean that I am better shooter?
In the end of the day I'll bet my money on a "uncivilized" russian conscript vs "higly trained civilized swede" because war is brutal and fighting is a primal instinct that almost vanquished in "civilized" european societies.

Roman legionaries were the most civilized and highly trained soldiers of its time unlike barbarians and Hun's hordes, you know how the story ends...

[mustamato]

BTW I can assure you that I fire more rounds every month than an average swedish soldier, does this mean that I am better shooter?
In the end of the day I'll bet my money on a "uncivilized" russian conscript vs "higly trained civilized swede" because war is brutal and fighting is a primal instinct that almost vanquished in "civilized" european societies.

Roman legionaries were the most civilized and highly trained soldiers of its time unlike barbarians and Hun's hordes, you know how the story ends...

And what have your days at the firing range in US got to do with russian conscripts?
The simple fact is that a swedish conscript probably fires more each month than
a russian conscript does during his whole military service. And how that makes the
russian soldier a better marksman is of course beyond me. But then again
russians seem to be quite happy for "spray and pray", so actually to train
to hit might perhaps be irrelevant, and the three years in service can be used for
saving beer in lakes instead.

And by the way the legionaries, wasn´t it you that thought that a comparison
between russian conscript in the 1930´s and their training (that is similar today) and
the Nordic model (that is also similar today) was sooo irrelevant?

http://students.bath.ac.uk/mn2gm/movie016-cldye.jpg
You cheer on the primitive while I put my money
on the civilized one, let´s see who wins.

[KOHTPAKTHuK]

BTW I can assure you that I fire more rounds every month than an average swedish soldier, does this mean that I am better shooter?
In the end of the day I'll bet my money on a "uncivilized" russian conscript vs "higly trained civilized swede" because war is brutal and fighting is a primal instinct that almost vanquished in "civilized" european societies.

Roman legionaries were the most civilized and highly trained soldiers of its time unlike barbarians and Hun's hordes, you know how the story ends...

And what have your days at the firing range in US got to do with russian conscripts?
The simple fact is that a swedish conscript probably fires more each month than
a russian conscript does during his whole military service. And how that makes the
russian soldier a better marksman is of course beyond me. But then again
russians seem to be quite happy for "spray and pray", so actually to train
to hit might perhaps be irrelevant, and the three years in service can be used for
saving beer in lakes instead.

And by the way the legionaries, wasn´t it you that thought that a comparison
between russian conscript in the 1930´s and their training (that is similar today) and
the Nordic model (that is also similar today) was sooo irrelevant?

http://students.bath.ac.uk/mn2gm/movie016-cldye.jpg
You cheer on the primitive while I put my money
on the civilized one, let´s see who wins.

Mustamato,
Have you seen the Russian infantry at the shooting ranges? Were you there with them when they shot?
N O
so http://www.newideology.ru/publication/poet/image/ris12.jpg

After reading your explanation of punishment of your swedish soldiers, I laughed for good 6 minutes. WOW - that is so homo******. Do they get cookies and milk after they correct themselves?

As for our soldier fighting yours one on one - rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

However I do like the taste of Swedish meat balls with egg noodles sometimes.

[Javehn]

Mustamato , your punishing system does sounds pretty strange for an army , again i will say it looks more like regular work , then a real army . Tell us something about your shooting ranges .

BTW : Something about the soldier training . I seen what happened to soldiers , when they got in real ****y stuff , and they weren't menthal strong . They were shoked and paralised , and just because their commanders were too mersifull on them in basic training , when the **** got pretty hard , the guys were in total shock . In a real conflicts when the **** comes hard , it's not good enough to follow soldier , that was only trained to shoot , but wasn't trained to be soldier .

[KOHTPAKTHuK]

Mustamato , your punishing system does sounds pretty strange for an army , again i will say it looks more like regular work , then a real army . Tell us something about your shooting ranges .

Do they even have them rofl

[Russian Texan]

You are not very quick on pick up, are you? :)
I'll give you some time to think about it.

BTW, I have noticed that quite frequently you make remarks regarding training of russian soldiers, where does your "expertise" comes from?
How can you make any statements about Russia's army training if you even, according to your countryman, can't even get facts straight about swedish defence forces? :lol:

Mustamato, your opinions and comments about both US and Russian militaries are terribly biased, misinformed and uneducated...
I do not understand what is it exactly you are trying to prove here but I think that by now it is pretty obvious that no one is taking you or your "expertise" seriously. Go back to your "24 hour room service" military that
needs spiritually re-inforcing ***
with their girlfriends .

To all other swedes:
Guys, you have a great, beautiful country that anyone would be proud of but you should restrict internet access for people like mustamato - they create bad rep for y'all.

[mustamato]

After reading your explanation of punishment of your swedish soldiers, I laughed for good 6 minutes. WOW - that is so homo******. Do they get cookies and milk after they correct themselves?

Actually. Punishment is not a good word at all. It´s to primitive and so out
of date. It´s as in our prisons, they don´t really get punished, they get care
so that they can function in our society (compare the crime rates in Sweden
and Russian and you´ll soon understand which method is more effective).

In most modern armies pedagogy is a important part of the learning process.
It´s better to give some dude with attitude problems cookies and milk
and letting him talk with the company chief that will in a pedagoghic way
explain how things work and why he is there etc. It works. Ever heard of
swedish soldiers deserting? Ever heard of swedish soldiers killing their own
friends? Ever heard of swedish soldiers selling their weapons to get a little vodka?
Didn´t think so.

Soon when Russia will get a volunteer army I´m sure that they will look at how
things are done in example in Sweden. Volunteers don´t accept **** like dedovshina.
I just pity those poor boys that are conscripts in the russian army now, what
a vaste of time :|

[Maine Finn]

For whatever my two cents is worth, "primitive" and "civilised" training no doubt serve the purposes of each respective military. If it works, use it.

Granted, war (or combat) can brutal and levels of training may or may not serve a soldier well in those situations. But wouldn't that also depend at least a little bit on the soldier as an individual? I mean, sure, he's a part of a unit and has to follow that, but I would think there would also be an element of self-thought and judgement too.

I suppose I have no idea what I'm talking about, because I don't have any military experience or training (yet), but there's a penni or two worth of thought anyway.

[KOHTPAKTHuK]

After reading your explanation of punishment of your swedish soldiers, I laughed for good 6 minutes. WOW - that is so homo******. Do they get cookies and milk after they correct themselves?

Actually. Punishment is not a good word at all. It´s to primitive and so out
of date. It´s as in our prisons, they don´t really get punished, they get care
so that they can function in our society (compare the crime rates in Sweden
and Russian and you´ll soon understand which method is more effective).

In most modern armies pedagogy is a important part of the learning process.
It´s better to give some dude with attitude problems cookies and milk
and letting him talk with the company chief that will in a pedagoghic way
explain how things work and why he is there etc. It works. Ever heard of
swedish soldiers deserting? Ever heard of swedish soldiers killing their own
friends? Ever heard of swedish soldiers selling their weapons to get a little vodka?
Didn´t think so.

Well thats because there is nothing to sell in Sweden. You can't even make your own weapons. See us Russians, we are the best at them. Proven by wars for the past 60 years. Our weapons work, don't jam, and just simply gorgeous looking. We also make them.

We have so many, that we can trade them for anything we like. Unlike in Sweden, where you have to pass one gun around. Do you need more AKs? We can send you more - just kidding. You don't deserve our gorgeous weapons.

[Russian Texan]

so that they can function in our society (compare the crime rates in Sweden
and Russian and you´ll soon understand which method is more effective).

It is not the method, it is peoples mentality

In most modern armies pedagogy is a important part of the learning process.
It´s better to give some dude with attitude problems cookies and milk
and letting him talk with the company chief that will in a pedagoghic way
explain how things work and why he is there etc. It works.

rofl rofl rofl

OMFG, DUDE IT'S A MILITARY NOT A KINDERGARDEN!!!!
Ever heard of
swedish soldiers deserting? Ever heard of swedish soldiers killing their own
friends? Ever heard of swedish soldiers selling their weapons to get a little vodka?
Didn´t think so.

I also haven't heard of them jumping on live grenades, covering machine gun nests with their bodies and ramming enemy airplanes when their run out of ammo....

Soon when Russia will get a volunteer army I´m sure that they will look at how
things are done in example in Sweden.

rofl rofl rofl
Trust me Russia is not going to get " all volunteer" army anytime soon...
And if they ever do, I seriously doubt that it will be modeled after swedish "military" :lol:

I just pity those poor boys that are conscripts in the russian army now, what
a vaste of time :|
And I am sure you feeling sorry for russian conscripts will make them feel very warm and fuzzy inside...

They come in as momma's boys and leave as men... not that you'd know how it feels like


BTW speaking of conscript training, you do realise that VDV, Naval Infantry, Spetsnaz, etc. are conscripts, do you?
Let me think about it: Swedish volunteer vs VDV, geez it's a tough one... :roll:

[Kingpin]

Well thats because there is nothing to sell in Sweden. You can't even make your own weapons. See us Russians, we are the best at them. Proven by wars for the past 60 years. Our weapons work, don't jam, and just simply gorgeous looking. We also make them.

We have so many, that we can trade them for anything we like. Unlike in Sweden, where you have to pass one gun around. Do you need more AKs? We can send you more - just kidding. You don't deserve our gorgeous weapons.

Да, да. Уже третью ракету клинит за двое суток.
А помнишь как в 1999 двумя ракетами по рынку попали в Грозном. Мне думается, что не в рынок целили. Совсем не в рынок. И тоже не сработало что-то.

[mustamato]

Let me think about it: Swedish volunteer vs VDV, geez it's a tough one... :roll:

Well, I guess it would be our specially trained counter-SOF then.

http://www.users.wineasy.se/mags/bassak/bilder/uppst.jpg
... as in example the Navys base security

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/CollageXlit.jpg
Air Force base security

http://w1.313.telia.com/~u31306903/images/44.jpg
Military police jaegers

Etc.


Да, да. Уже третью ракету клинит за двое суток.
А помнишь как в 1999 двумя ракетами по рынку попали в Грозном. Мне думается, что не в рынок целили. Совсем не в рынок. И тоже не сработало что-то.

So what where they actually aiming at then?

[Russian Texan]

Well, I guess it would be our specially trained counter-SOF then.


Do you know the total VDV strenght? And how many people are in that "counter SOF force", does the total number includes housekeeping staff?

BTW, VDV is not special forces it is airborne.

[Jack Mehoff]

I don't know anything about Russian culture, but beating up defenseless recruits is what you call training then so be it. Whatever float your boat I guess.

[mustamato]

Well, I guess it would be our specially trained counter-SOF then.


Do you know the total VDV strenght? And how many people are in that "counter SOF force", does the total number includes housekeeping staff?

BTW, VDV is not special forces it is airborne.

Where we not talking about the training of the soldiers now? :roll:

[Russian Texan]

Well, I guess it would be our specially trained counter-SOF then.


Do you know the total VDV strenght? And how many people are in that "counter SOF force", does the total number includes housekeeping staff?

BTW, VDV is not special forces it is airborne.

Where we not talking about the training of the soldiers now? :roll:


Uh?

[Russian Texan]

I don't know anything about Russian culture, but beating up defenseless recruits is what you call training then so be it. Whatever float your boat I guess.

They are not defenseless, they can fight back. Those that do - earn respect, those that don't and just give up without a fight become "bitches".

[Jack Mehoff]

So, it's OK for recruits to hit back because all I see was new recruits line up in a row and waiting to get kick.

[KOHTPAKTHuK]

Swedish Airborne

http://bulvar.kuban.info/preview/_4623_220_161_0_0.jpg

http://www.liveinternet.ru/images/foto/f_27731_small.jpg

[KOHTPAKTHuK]

So, it's OK for recruits to hit back because all I see was new recruits line up in a row and waiting to get kick.

Thats just softening them up, after that they go one on one

[Russian Texan]

So, it's OK for recruits to hit back because all I see was new recruits line up in a row and waiting to get kick.

Ok, I see now, you guys completely missed the point: you thought that everyone just lines up and waits to be kicked? - No, some choose to fight and earn respect even if they loose. Those who don't have a character to stand up for themselves will be cleaning toilets for the rest of 2 year term...

[mustamato]

So, it's OK for recruits to hit back because all I see was new recruits line up in a row and waiting to get kick.

Ok, I see now, you guys completely missed the point: you thought that everyone just lines up and waits to be kicked? - No, some choose to fight and earn respect even if they loose. Those who don't have a character to stand up for themselves will be cleaning toilets for the rest of 2 year term...

Sure.

[Russian Texan]

Swedish Airborne

http://bulvar.kuban.info/preview/_4623_220_161_0_0.jpg

http://www.liveinternet.ru/images/foto/f_27731_small.jpg


rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

No disrespect for the Sweden but it is funny rofl rofl rofl

[KOHTPAKTHuK]

Here is our airborne

We are still waiting for Swedish photos of your airborne.

Thanks to Igor01 (from Gunsnet)
http://mishami.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875206.1801.jpg
http://mishuna.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875391.spetsnaz_86.jpg
http://mishilo.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875385.spetsnaz_27.jpg
http://mishopi.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875382.2201.jpg
http://mishami.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875192.44.jpg
http://misheli.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875191.33.jpg
http://mishappa.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875190.31.jpg
http://mishopi.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875193.45.jpg
http://mishoga.image.pbase.com/u11/igor01/upload/6703689.chech31.jpg
http://misheli.image.pbase.com/u9/igor01/upload/1798002.6473.jpg
http://mishopi.image.pbase.com/u11/igor01/upload/6703688.chech09.jpg
http://misheli.image.pbase.com/u11/igor01/upload/6703686.chech06.jpg
http://mishoga.image.pbase.com/u9/igor01/medium/1797998.6468.jpg

[mustamato]

I assume that russian airbone works just as well as those pictures? And
Mr Kontraktniki maybe have missed what this topic is about.

[Russian Texan]

I assume that russian airbone works just as well as those pictures? And
Mr Kontraktniki maybe have missed what this topic is about.

The don't work, they serve.

[Javehn]

Mustamato , what your soldiers do when a **** get's tough (if indeed your soldiers had been in those situation for last half century ) ? Really , what they would do , when they comming to base at 6 and leaving at 17 (or even 22 ) . How does officers will react in hard situations when army it's like a work for them ? I tell you that they wan't . Army is not a job , it's a way of life , otherways the soldier just piss his pense when he hears the first bullet goes in a ground next to him with a noise . He is not tough in his nature , it will take him a time to understand the situation , and until then he would die . I don't agree with Russian methods , but they raise a soldiers to fight , not a "chocolad" soldiers , as it's called in my country . There is a difference between civilian that was tought to shoot his weapon , and a real soldier . And a real soldier will react , even if he doesn't familiar with nothing around him . Soldiers in first Chechen campain holded a houses for 4 days , while all their training was firing 5 rounds .
It's all about menthality , not who fired bigger number of rounds in shooting range .

[mustamato]

Mustamato , what your soldiers do when a **** get's tough (if indeed your soldiers had been in those situation for last half century ) ? Really , what they would do , when they comming to base at 6 and leaving at 17 (or even 22 ) . How does officers will react in hard situations when army it's like a work for them ? I tell you that they wan't . Army is not a job , it's a way of life , otherways the soldier just piss his pense when he hears the first bullet goes in a ground next to him with a noise . He is not tough in his nature , it will take him a time to understand the situation , and until then he would die . I don't agree with Russian methods , but they raise a soldiers to fight , not a "chocolad" soldiers , as it's called in my country . There is a difference between civilian that was tought to shoot his weapon , and a real soldier . And a real soldier will react , even if he doesn't familiar with nothing around him . Soldiers in first Chechen campain holded a houses for 4 days , while all their training was firing 5 rounds .
It's all about menthality , not who fired bigger number of rounds in shooting range .

I don´t know if it´s you people that can´t read, don´t see text because of
some mild dyslexia or what it is. I have written several times about swedish
soldiers in action quite recently. Make a seach on this forums and you will find
info. Hint hint 1: AT-3 Saggers and full hits of swedish APC´s. Hint hint 2:
Congo 2003 etc etc. Well what the hell, I´ll even quote myself from this thread (page 3)


It is not for
nothing the swedish batallion in Bosnia was dubbed "the shoot back
batallion" by the british´UN-soldiers. And the british commander Sir
Michael Rose has written debate articles where he has held the swedish
soldiers as good examples of good conscript soldiers. And geeee, who should
I trust must, him (former chief of 22th SAS Regiment) or you?


________________________________

By the way, a booktip for you RussianTexan, Anthony Lloyd´s ”My war
gone by, I miss it so”, a veteran fron Northern Ireland and the first Gulf
war, he has this to say about the swedes he met in Bosnia:

”The men inside (the APC) might have been UN but they were playing by
a completely different set of rules. They were Swedes; in terms of
individual intelligence, integrity and single-mindedness I was to find them
among the most impressive soldiers I had ever encountered. In Vares
their moment had come.”

And what do we learn from this?

[Javehn]

And i will repeat what other have said . Bosnia , and UN peacekeeping , is in no way , no way a real fighting action . Just a playing with weapons , nothing more . I have read what you wrote .

[Russian Texan]

Nothing really...

[mustamato]

And i will repeat what other have said . Bosnia , and UN peacekeeping , is in no way , no way a real fighting action . Just a playing with weapons , nothing more . I have read what you wrote .

Ok, were you in your little Merkava actually even once targeted with small
arms, snipers, mortars, heavy artillery, driving onto mines, and receiving
full hits of ATGM´s? Hell, the worst thing that happened was probably that
some palestinian kids was throwing a rock on your tank?

Well don´t let me wreck your illusion, but yes the things above happened to
swedish UN-soldiers in Bosnia. And it was two Pbv 302´s that received direct
hits by AT-3´s by the way. What do you think the swedish soldiers did when
they were targeted and their vehicles were taken out, and still got incoming
HMG and grenade fire? Just sat on the asses? :roll: I think I have to wreck
your illusion (again), but UN did shoot back (hence the swedish batallions name).

There is especially one story about the "Sugarhill" somewhere in Bosnia
where the serbs had a T-55. This usually shot a little then and then, several
time on the swedish UN soldiers. However the T-55 commander foooked up one
day and targeted the danes, these responded with 72 grenades from their Leopards.

http://www.haaland.info/leopard1/gallery/Denmark/leo1a5dk-un.jpg
... and the T-55 was never heard of again :) And I can promise you all that
the danish army is waaay more soft than the swedish one, they can even take a beer
to lunch. And still they are professional and good fighters. Why? Well, perhaps
because the nordic conscript education works after all.

Sir Michael Rose agrees with me, and he is a former commander of the 22th
SAS Regiment, so who really cares about what some ruskies think. SAS! Pwned! :)

[KOHTPAKTHuK]

No I didn't miss ****!

Those airborne troops went through the same type of welcome "As seen on the original video"

However, in march of 2000 6th platoon of 104th regiment faced over 1500 animals in Chechnya on the hill numbered "776" near Ulus-Kert

There were about 90 Russian paratroopers. They had a way out, they could of simply walked back and let the Chechen terrorists come through to Dagestan, and all the way to Moscow.

They were offered 2 million dollars in cash over the radio by Khattab himself to back off.

Our guys knew that going back is not in VDV's blood and history. They knew they were outnumbered 1 to 15.

For each Russian paratrooper, Khattab had 15 mudjaheds. All of whom well trained, and went through many terrorist camps before merging with native Chechens.

Kombat Mark Evtuhin knew that his boys were not some bitches, or momy boys. Each one of them experienced the same "welcome" traditions, and harsh training. They passed it, they fought back against their "granfathers", and that made them stronger inside.

You know how? The big mean bad "grandfathers" tried to put them down in their basic. But they didn't give up, and through blood, bruises, broken teeth fought they way trhough training.

Later they found themselves on the Hill 776.

9 2 paratroopers vs 1500

They didn't give up, didn't go crying for help, and run home. They stayed, and fought till last bullet.
DEATH IS BETTER THAN DISHONOR was their motto.

Khatab **** his pants when he sent his left overs to pick up the dead mudjaheds. The hill was covered with arab meat. He wasn't expecting this kind of embarassing defeat.

Basaev warned Khattab on the radio that night.
Here is a brief conversation that was recorded by our recievers.

-Salam Maleikum Shamil
-Maleikum Asalam, where are you?
-680 Argun-UlusKert, we are going to break now.
-Who is your wall? Mahra(infantry) ?
-No, fukin Goblins (VDV)
-Goblins, Hatab insha Allah, back off. They will not let you through
-Fuk them, I will kill them all. Alahy Akbar
-Your call Amir, I warned you. They are crazy......


Here is a conversation between Mark Evtuhin and Khatab. Recorded by Perm Omon's recievers. (V.Makarov's OMON was on the way for help)

with heavy middle eastern accent, tries to speak Russian
-Komandir, this is Khatab. Listen, get out of my way. I know you there. We saw your recon group. (that recon group took out 38 Chechens, trying to recon on them)
-Khattab, we are staying here, not going anywhere.
-Komandir, I will give you 2 million bucks. Get out of my way, you can take the money, and buy a nice car in your poor Russia. Feed your kids.
-Do you speak Russian? I said we are staying, and if you want us, come here and talk.
-Listen Russian pig, I have 15 brave mudjaheds for your every young puppie. They just finished sharpening their kinjals, they are ready. You hear me Komandir.
-Yeah, I hear you. Send them here.

After 6 hours of fight, Khatabs right hand Abu Idris was killed by Nikolai S. He shot the arab fuk, with his last bullet. He came to take his Stechkin off of him, and faced 4 more Arab mercs. He took out his bayonet, and jumped on them. Killing one instantly, and slicing another one. But he was shot by shaking scared chechen. Yeah, there is your bravery. Russian fighter comes at you with a knife, and you shoot him.

Sorry but Chechens are known to be brave, and good with their knives. He just **** his pants.

At 4am Khatab came back on the radio.

-Komandir, now you pissed me off. I will come cut you like goats, I swear on my mother. Alah akbaaar
-Hey speaking of goats and lamb, come pick yours up. They are scattered around the hill.

By the morning of the third day, there were 8 guys left on our side. Kombat Mark Evtuhin, Aleksei Komarov (i've been talking to him, and sending him cash for help), and 6 other guys.

Mark Evtuhin ordered the remaining 6 guys to go home, and grow kids to be like them. He even shot by their feet to make them move, and leave their comander.

This is when the bravest man shot tears out, while walking away, and looking at thei legless comander grabing the radio, and using his dead Lt's body for cover to make this speach on the radio.

-71, this is Sokol. Send artel' my way. Here are the coordinates....
Tell me wife, and my daughter I love them. And tell everyone - MY BOYS FOUGHT TILL THE END
LONG LIVE RUSSIA over..............




now lets hear Swedish experiences.

[Javehn]

Ok, were you in your little Merkava actually even once targeted with small
arms, snipers, mortars, heavy artillery, driving onto mines, and receiving
full hits of ATGM´s? Hell, the worst thing that happened was probably that
some palestinian kids was throwing a rock on your tank?

And after all i wrote , you telling me that i don't do any reading .I am shure for 120 percent that Swedish soldiers would have their pence full of pup and piss , if they would be stationed on the streets of Nablus OHAHAHAHAHAHAA with kids "throwing rocks" , or in Chechnya 1994 with those nice wahhabits HAHAHHAHHAHHAAH . And to fire 70 rounds on poor T55 , that's just over reaction , probably because they all puped their pence from one tank .
Again , give me better story then poor tank that was fired ATGM on . Did your soldiers stand face to face against armed enemy in a matter of metters ? Can you tell me that ?

[IDFM203]

Ok, were you in your little Merkava actually even once targeted with small
arms, snipers, mortars, heavy artillery, driving onto mines, and receiving
full hits of ATGM´s? Hell, the worst thing that happened was probably that
some palestinian kids was throwing a rock on your tank?
ok fair is fair, your both going at it with each other (and with others) so I can understand you bringing your (false) rhetoric here.

However this is just wrong. I have personally been shot at with all sorts of small arms fire on a constant bases,and with enemy snipers as well, not to mention RPG’s being used against other units. Roadside bombs that can take out a tank, homemade mortars and rockets being shot at us, homicide bombers etc…..its a lot more then just kids with rocks (where a lot of times pali gun man would shoot behind those kids and use them for covor).

While its not the six day war or the Yom kipper war, the past four years (well due to the IDF, it has quieted down recently) has been a war, albeit a LIC and in a lot of battles were as intense as some wars can be.

*ok now back to the original programming of Russian and sweads compering each others militaries………….. ;) *

Shalom :D

[Russian Texan]

You see mustamato, once you tell me the same story about swedish soldiers as Contractnik just told you, I'll take them for the real military, at this point they are in the "best houskeeping services" category.

Those kids at that hill were the same guys that you saw in that "breaking in video".
So what happened to low morale and all that...? The truth is that on that hill newbees fought for grandfathers that beat the **** out of them in the barracks and granfathers who make newbees clean toilets were saving their lives on the battlefield.

90 VDV guys vs 1500 mercenaries and mercenaries lost, kinda goes against your statements about training qualitiy of russian conscripts, doesn't it?

Real life completely denies your "expertise"...

[mustamato]

ok fair is fair, your both going at it with each other (and with others) so I can understand you bringing your (false) rhetoric here.

So are you actually accusing me of making these things up? With the danes anwering
with 72 grenades when a serb T-55 fooked up, or two direct hits of swedish
APC´s by AT-3 Saggers? Hell! Then it´s as if I say that the Holocaust
didn´t exist. Would feel good or what?

Yeah I know you are badass IDFM203. What is discussed here is wether our
way of training conscripts would produce effective soldiers or not. I say yes,
and with people like Sir Michael Rose actually thinking so as well, there is nothing
to discuss really.

[Javehn]

And i bring you fatcs , musti . You haven'y been in battlefield , correct , haven't been shot at , don't know how it feels ? Let me tell you , that the same people that wine to their mama and papa are the first people to do nothing when the **** gets hard .

And yes , non of the stores you brought is not real action . Again . Big ****en deal , they were hit by Sagger . That's it , nothing happend later ? hey haven't got fired after that during rescue , nothing ? That's the only story ?

[KOHTPAKTHuK]

Mark Evtuhin

Thank you sir for making us STRONG, and GREAT
You sure sent those Arab bastard to hell.
GOD BLESS YOU BROTHER
I would die for you and for Russia too

REST IN PEACE my hero
http://www.voskres.ru/army/spirit/images/evtukh-b.jpg

[Herrmannek]

And yes , non of the stores you brought is not real action . Again .

Mainly fucckups bring real action my friend...

[Russian Texan]

*ok now back to the original programming of Russian and sweads compering each others militaries………….. ;) *

Shalom :D

We are not comparing anything, there is nothing to compare...
I mean Russia has a military while Sweden, according to mustamato, has an armed group of people that is being supported by an excellently trained housekeeping staff and needs regulary to
spiritually re-inforcing ***
with their girlfriends ....
What is there to compare? :)

[IDFM203]

ok fair is fair, your both going at it with each other (and with others) so I can understand you bringing your (false) rhetoric here.

So are you actually accusing me of making these things up? With the danes anwering
with 72 grenades when a serb T-55 fooked up, or two direct hits of swedish
APC´s by AT-3 Saggers? Hell! Then it´s as if I say that the Holocaust
didn´t exist. Would feel good or what? . no man you completely misunderstood me :roll:

I am neither Russian nor a Swede and as such I am staying out all this.

When I said false I was ONLY referring to what you said specifically with regard to Israel and had nothing to do with you or what Sweden has done.

With all that I am just a spectator here ;)


Yeah I know you are badass IDFM203. . I don’t know what to say….I guess thank you for that compliment….yes? ;)



What is discussed here is wether our
way of training conscripts would produce effective soldiers or not. I say yes,
and with people like Sir Michael Rose actually thinking so as well, there is nothing
to discuss really. I got all that, I think both of your ways are wrong ;)

Yours are way to soft and theirs are way to hard, but hell whatever works for your guys.

Again I am staying out of this, if I can ;)

Shalom :D

[mustamato]

And yes , non of the stores you brought is not real action . Again .

Aaaaah. I think I´ll rest my case. If facts is disbelieved, then there is nothing
I can do I guess. Just remember Javehn, I´m not like you. I luckily
don´t have your blood, so there is no reason for me to make up things like that.

Shalom on you!

[KOHTPAKTHuK]

And yes , non of the stores you brought is not real action . Again .

Aaaaah. I think I´ll rest my case. If facts is disbelieved, then there is nothing
I can do I guess. Just remember Javehn, I´m not like you. I luckily
don´t have your blood, so there is no reason for me to make up things like that.

Shalom on you!

Mustamato, stop changing subjects.

WE ARE WAITING FOR STORRIES of Swedish airborne.

[Javehn]

Why the **** you all starting to get defensive and **** , ha?
That's a nice stories , but i mean every one of Europian armies that trained in this method , when they faced a really hard fighting , that's not the same as your stories . Real fighting were in Grozni in 1994 , those were real fightings . How would your soldiers act there ?
Your stories is all good and nice , and they acted ok in those circumstanses . But the Russia training is for different sircumpstances . You see ?No changing facts , and no dissing nobody , but different fighting neads different methods .

[Stavka]

WE ARE WAITING FOR STORRIES of Swedish airborne.

Well, this isnt from a Swedish Airborne unit. This one is from an associate of mine, known netwise as Unicorn. Doing what we swedes have been doing for the last 50 years, keeping the peace. Enjoy.



Article by Unicorn
Translation by J-Star and Ace

In the fall of 1993 I was serving as a heavy machinegunner at Nordbat 2, Guard & Escort platoon. By the end of september our SISU and a platoon from 10th mech inf company were sent urgently as reinforcements to the 8th mech inf company area of responsibility in Vares. This was because several of the battalion's armored vehicles had been involved in clashes with units of the HVO. The 8th coy had also been subjected to ambushes.

The mood in Vares was nasty and very threatening. No civilians what-so-ever were moving outdoors and the entire time we were close, too close, to losing control of the situation. If we ever had any control that is. We were a few hundred Swedes against an entire Croatian brigade.

Houses were burning here and there in Vares and its surroundings, but from one of the battalion observation posts one could see the light of a fire that from the looks of it was more serious. It seemed as if an entire village was in flames. However, Croatian forces were blocking the access routes and refused to let anyone near the village.

Units from the Swedish battalion had repeatedly been, and still were, subjected to ambushes by "unknown" soldiers. Sometimes they shot back. The whole situation was like walking a thin line. Most of the SISU-vehicles had one or more tires that had been scavenged from less prioritized vehicles. The tires had been blown out and shot at such a pace that no more spares were available. Instead there were now a couple of trucks without wheels put up on blocks in the camp.

The mood between the Croatian forces and the Swedish battalion was as mentioned not the best. Still though the hostilities were not official. Going into the village on the other hand would have meant an open confrontation with the HVO. The Swedish battalion was a few hundred men, and reinforcements were not available in the foreseeable future. Against them, they would have gotten the entire Croatian Bobovac Brigade.

A refugee managed to reach the Nordbat camp and reported that the people in the burning village had been put through terrible atrocities. The village's name was Stupni Do. Rumours had it that some forty villagers had escaped and were hiding in the woods some kilometres from the village, in the middle of the frontline. They were probably trying to reach the Bosnian side of the front.

Together with battalion commander Ulf Henricsson and a few members of his staff we left in our SISU in an attempt to find the refugees. It was dark, houses were burning around us, and we left for the frontline. A couple of times we negotiated our way through checkpoints controlled by HVO, the Bosnian-Croatian army.

We searched with night vision goggles but couldn't find the refugees. We thought we had found their location - a creepy cemetery on the steep hillside. We saw no one and could do nothing alone in the darkness, so we returned to the camp for a couple of hours of sleep.

At the camp all available personnel were in entrenchments. The 8th coy camp was situated in a valley between high mountains and it was a nightmare to protect against assaults or snipers. A letter had been left during the day where they threatened to once again attack the camp. It was biting cold outside and the only thing that didn't freeze was the mud, that reached above the ankles. The fog was thick and made it impossible to see more than 50 meters.

Early in the morning we made another attempt to rescue the refugees. This time we brought two medic SISU's and another armed Guard/Escort SISU. Major Daniel Ekberg was in command of the unit. We negotiated a passage through a couple of checkpoints and went back to the location we had found last evening. There we stopped in the middle of the road in a narrow canyon between two hill slopes. We used our powerful horns on the vehicles and our interpreter Ruzdi Ekenheim explained through a megaphone that we were from UNPROFOR and there to help. Nothing happened. If the refugees really were there they were afraid to show themselves. Twenty minutes passed and soon we would have to leave. If the HVO found us we would be in trouble.

Just when we had begun to give up hope we hear a cry for help from the forest. Little by little twenty five frozen, shocked human remnants come to us. A woman had died during the night, but we had no means of bringing her corpse. We left her body behind.

A pretty girl in her twenties throws herself crying around the neck of Ekenheim. She tells of how she was forced to watch her family get killed. Her boyfriend was on crutches after an injury, and they made her watch them kill him. If she had dropped as much as a tear they would have killed her too. After this they raped her and threw her into a house with some other villagers. The door was blocked and the house was set on fire.

The girl was alive now thanks to a sledge being found. While the house was burning, they used that to make a hole in the wall and managed to flee into the forest at the back of the house.

In the middle of our rescue operation a mini-bus filled with Croatian HVO soldiers comes driving towards us at high speed. I pointed my heavy machinegun at them and armed it. The warning shot I intended to fire turned out not to be necessary though. At the mere sight of the muzzle the soldiers became so frightened that they drove off the road. We let the trembling soldiers leave the scene in the company of two other HVO soldiers that had been captured and disarmed by the Guard/Escort-SISU at the other end of the column.

After making sure we had gotten all refugees and loaded them into our already crammed SISU-vehicles we drove to the village Pominici on the Bosnian side of the front. Our SISU was so full of people that I had to stand on one leg the whole trip there. Since the rear was packed with refugees, any attempt to lessen the target silhouette by crouching behind the machinegun was made impossible and I felt like my entire upper body was a glow-in-the-dark target for the Croatian snipers.

I will never forget the emotions and facial expressions that met us in Pominici. People desperately looking for relatives. The relief of finding the one they were looking for. The despair when someone wasn't there. At least I had an affirmation that our presence was not only justified. It was essential.

Now we just had to get back. That turned out to be more difficult than we expected. By now the HVO knew what we had done. They didn't like that we had "picked sides" by helping the refugees. Probably it also was against UN directives for the area. At a checkpoint in the southern outskirts of Vares we were stopped. Major Ekberg asked for advice on the radio. Ulf Henricsson himself answered.

"-This is Victor Lima One. Are there any mines there?"
"-Negative!"
"-Give them two minutes - then run you the damn thing down!"

That was the first roadblock, but far from the last, to be smashed under the Nordic battalion's armoured vehicles.

We ran a gauntlet through Vares before we were stopped by soldiers with anti tank weapons. Four solders with LAWs were fanned out in front of the convoy. The situation was so tense one careless move would immediately have set off a battle. As I was standing at the heavy machinegun in the front-most vehicle I realized I would be the first to fall. Add to that the machinegun was mounted on an anti-aircraft carriage completely devoid of armour protection. I was an easy target. At the same time I realized my weapon was the only thing that would get us out of there if the battle started. I started preparing for my own death by giving orders and assigning targets for the others in the rear of the vehicle. The most important thing was that someone took my weapon when - not if - I fell.

The Croatian military policeman that was in charge of the HVO soldiers stepped up with a couple of men to negotiate. He had 25 hash marks on the butt if his AK47. One for each enemy he had killed. Major Ekberg and the interpreter Ekeheim hade stepped out of the SISU and were now negotiating with the Croatians. The situation was tense. Very tense. After some time of negotiating the tension seemed to ease a bit. We thought the danger was over - but just like a letter in the mail a mentally disturbed HVO soldier came in a white VW Golf. Something had snapped with him when his entire family was obliterated by a grenade. For some reason he now hated the UN for this.

He stepped out of his car among the negotiating Swedes and Croatians, mad as a hornet, and grabbed on the HVO soldiers' LAWs in order to fire it against the SISU behind ours. In an instant the situation escalated and I had time to think "****, this is really happening now".

This was one of those moments in your life when time stands completely still. I saw in the eyes of the Croatian soldier that was in the sights of my 12.7 millimetre machinegun that he understood what was about to happen.

I'm pulling it...

But - a fraction of a second before the first projectiles from my heavy machinegun would have struck the chest of the first of the four LAW-carrying soldiers fifty meters in front of us, one of the Croatians managed to strike the somewhat antisocial man with a straight punch and remove the LAW from him. I eased up on the trigger and felt I must have been right on the pressure point of it. So damn close. Maybe there wouldn't be any killing after all.

Everyone breathed a sigh of relief. Had he had time to aim the LAW at the SISU, a series of events would have been started that couldn't have ended with anything but us or the Croatians being the only ones standing up. I felt my legs were shaking continuously. Partly from the psychical strain and partly from standing in the exact same strenuous position for half an hour.

The LAW soldier in my sights didn't like the fact that I was aiming at him and changed position. Not so strange after the incident with the LAW snatcher. I followed him with the barrel. He showed with unmistakable gestures that he felt provoked. I didn't care. We stared each other out, and neither wanted to be the first to back down. In the middle of our psychological duel I leaned out from behind the machinegun, winked and smiled at him. I won the battle. He became so flabbergasted he didn't really know what to do or how to behave, and started pacing like a confused chicken.

Suddenly Colonel Ulf Henricssons jeep shows up out of nowhere. The short statured - but oh so powerful - colonel steps out and starts shouting orders at both Swedes and HVO soldiers. The HVO men look almost astonished, and like magic Henricsson dominates the scene in a manner few people are capable of. He takes control of the situation and defuses it completely. We quite simply leave, leaving behind a large group of open-mouthed HVO soldiers.

We return to the camp for a debriefing of what the refugees have told us about Stupni Do. Conclusion: we ARE going into that village. Two mech inf platoons from 8th and 10th coy are selected for the task. For the first time in a very, very long time Swedish troops are ordered to get ready to take terrain. The platoons are assigned the north and south access roads to Stupni Do and set out.

At the same time we give colonel Henricsson a ride to the Bobovac Brigade headquarters in our SISU. The Croatians are given one last chance to let us in. If they don't, we will go in anyway. Exactly what the very resolute Henricsson said to the Bobovac Brigade commander I don't know - but the commander comes out personally and drives ahead of us in his personal maroon Vaz Niva to make sure we are let into the village.

Fairly undramatically we meet up with the mech inf platoon assigned to the northern approach of the village. There is also an armoured jeep there with a near suicidal television crew. Henricsson decides to take advantage of the situation and invites the crew to document what has happened. The colonel walks with the journalists ahead of our SISU as we slowly roll into Stupni Do.

Not one house in the village had been spared. Everything had been blown up, burnt down, destroyed. At first glance the village seemed devoid of people, but just after a few minutes we find the charred remains of a person. After a careful search a total of twenty corpses are found, among them a child about eight to ten years old that had been kicked to death. Three women that had tried to hide in a potato store had had their throats slit. Then they had been shot in the head. The corpses were still desperately holding hands. When a pioneer platoon later on are to carry out the bodies they find a ****y trap had been set by putting an armed grenade in the armpit of one of the bodies. It falls out on the floor without detonating.

The entire village was completely eradicated. A single cow and some cat had in some strange way escaped annihilation. Smoke was smouldering from the foundations of the houses. Water was bizarrely enough running from the blown up water mains. A sole yellow child's boot was on a slope outside one of the houses. I'm still wondering what had happened to the child that just some day ago been spending its time happily playing. Maybe the child was one of the little girls that were said to have been burned alive with gasoline for the murderers' amusement.

Colonel Henricsson stepped back into the SISU. We were now going to Pominici to interview the refugees thoroughly. We were all very dogged. An HVO soldier was no longer worth anything in the eyes of Nordbat. The respect we possibly had felt before was completely gone. As we are driving through the southern approach to Stupni Do the HVO has mined the passage under the railway viaduct we have to pass. On the other side is the mech inf platoon assigned to the southern approach. Colonel Henricsson gives the nearest HVO soldier a raging excoriation. The man is horror-struck and defends himself by saying he "just a soldier!". But he refuses to remove the mines and we simply drive up the slopes and over the railway. In the middle of the rail yard we greet the mech inf platoon heading the other way.

We are once again stopped at the checkpoint we forced our way through earlier that day. They don't intend to get run over again and have placed mines across the road. A furious colonel Henricsson jumps out of the SISU with his interpreter Ekenheim. Henricsson explains that the mines will be removed, or "we will blow your head off", pointing demonstratively at my heavy machinegun. The muzzle is pointed right at the HVO soldier's forehead and judging by his face it must have looked as if it was the muzzle of a howitzer. Ekenheim simultaneously translates Henricssons berating of the soldier, amusingly enough with the same lively gestures.

The entire crew of the vehicle is standing in the hatches, ready to fire. One man is even in a kneeling position on top of the vehicle. Our grim expressions and determined gazes makes the HVO soldiers realize that the discussion is over. None of them dare touch their guns. Nordbat is not negotiating anymore today.

When nothing happens colonel Henricsson picks up the first mine from the road himself and throws is carelessly at a pile of tires at a house wall. He picks up another mine and sends it in the same direction. Finally he forces the checkpoint commander as a final defeat to pick up the last mine himself. Stooped over he trots along with the mine in his hands. The road is clear and we continue.

In the same insane pace we continue our rampage in Vares for another few days. Nordbat Two is no longer negotiating about the "freedom of movement" the UN was entitled to according to an agreement with the fighting parties. Those who stand in our way we run over. As per order by colonel Henricsson we are authorized for immediate fire for effect. In his own words: "We shot the warning shot last Thursday".

In three days we sleep a total of a few hours. The little sleep we get is usually in a firing position at the camp with sleeping-bags wrapped around the body in order to not freeze to death. We eat frozen "pyttipanna” (hashed meat and potatoes) that we chisel from large tin cans. That's when someone suddenly realizes we're being benefit taxed for free food and lodging. For the same amount as if we had stayed at the Scandic Hotel eating entrecote.

The Canadian troops assigned to us as reinforcements consider us to be crazy already on the first day and leave us as they deem the situation to be too dangerous. Instead, a couple of days later we get reinforced by a company from the French foreign legion.

The non-Swedish UN-generals, who previously were sceptical towards Nordbat 2 changed their attitude in the blink of an eye after Vares. Comrades from my platoon were giving Ulf Henricsson a ride to the UN Headquarters at Kiseljak outside Sarajevo a couple of days after the climax.

In the old Olympic Games motel that housed "BH Command" there was a large canteen where all the personnel dined. When a small group of Swedish soldiers get in the food queue with colonel Henricsson up front everyone in the room stands up, from privates to generals, and applauds. Nordbat 2 had made themselves a reputation in Bosnia.

The British general and UN commander in Bosnia Sir Michael Rose, former chief of 22 SAS Regiment (and previously one of the strongest critics towards the Swedish presence) later wants the Swedish battalion to be a part of a special rapid reaction unit to be deployed in special situations anywhere in Bosnia. The Swedish government declined. Sir Michael Rose later wrote a debate article back home in the UK where the Swedish soldiers are mentioned as a shining example of how a conscript based military system also can produce soldiers of the highest international ranking.

One of the "suicidal" journalists on site in Vares was Anthony Lloyd, himself a former soldier in the British army and a Northern Ireland and Gulf War veteran. In his book "My war gone by, I miss it so" he mentions the Swedes in the following manner:

"The men inside (the APC) might have been UN but they were playing by a completely different set of rules.

They were Swedes; in terms of individual intelligence, integrity and single-mindedness I was to find them among the most impressive soldiers I had ever encountered.

In Vares their moment had come."


Less of the bashing fellas, its just annoying and wrecks the possibilty of what we all came here for, scoping out milpics.
Im not going to comment on the video this thread started out with, Im sure our russian comrades here have a better insight into what purpose it fills than we do. But remeber, this however odd method of "breaking ppl in" may be the right thing for the russian military, but not for us.

Less namecalling, more dialogue. OK?

[Russian Texan]

Agreed.

[Javehn]

good story

[OldRecon]

Well those guys were cornered right?
How come they were surrounded in the first place by that many men, and that higher command didn't respond before it was too late?
And at least some of those higher up responsible for putting those brave VDV's in that predicament, they are still around aren't they, protected by connections and cover ups?
How much artillery/air support did those VDV's enjoy?
If those guys had taken bribes, FSB would have got wind of it sooner or later right?
And what would the legal system have done with those guys, after catching them if they had been taking bribes?
Anyway if they had said yes to bribes, could they have been shure the Chechens would have kept their part of the agreement? (I wouldn't have trusted them for shure, and neither would you I suppose?)
And though off course you have some reliable units, there shure must be some other ones not all that steady. How else could the chechens do those hospital hijacks far away from Chechenya and the Moscow theatre thing? No bribes involved in those instances right?
How come the large numbers of soviet citizens serving under arms for the Germans during WW-2, and those "Afghan Russians"? They changed side, as the mischiveous individuals they were, because there was too litle dedovschina in their units?
As for your statement on the need for dedovschina in order discipline soldiers, it appears as if a russian soldier left on his own without an officer or nco around to bully him would just sit on their asses, because its 06.30 in the morning. So in your opinion is it a good ting to have to resort to draconian measures to in order to make anybody do something?
Isn't what's given above a sign saying there's something fundamentaly wrong in the machinery?
Is more dedovschina and other forms of oppresion of your own fellow citizens the answer to straighten out and fix the machinery?
Dedovschina is an institution in Russian armed forces not particular only to the Soviet of post-Soviet era, but dating well back to the days of the Tsarist army right?
From my little knowledge of Russian soldiers in common you seem resourceful when it comes to basic fieldcraft like mending by with little, stitching/mending worn personal gear/clothing shoes, live off the land and such stuff.
Yet how is the ability of the average recruit in the russian army, with regards to employing infusion liquid to wounded, first aid, use of map and compass, ability to direct artilery, recognition of own vs. enemy equipment, use of radio/signals procedures etc?
That was basic skils thaught to everyone in my unit when I did conscription way back in Norway.
On a recent refreshment call up, think we did away with 400-500 rounds each on the range in 2 days.
Yet I'll flatly admit that those doing conscription at present in Norway, get a much better and systematic training regime than in my days.
Up until recently military training in Sweden appears to have been more systematic and of better average quality than in my country, though nowdays with international commitments things have been thightened up (though still withouth any regimented system of bullying).
As for cornered Scandinavian soldiers, by comparison at Suomisalmi during the winter war a ragtag improvised brigade sized battlegroup of Finns, with support weapons limited to machine guns and a few mortars, managed to anihilate 2 whole Soviet divisions well equipped with tanks and artilery.
Much the same odds as your VDV vs. al Qaida story.
Now being fairly critical to you above, you think I look down on Russia or Russians?
Well, can aswer that straight away.
How can anyone look down on a nation producing such greats as Tolstoj, Pushkin, Tsjaikovski, Prokofiev, Thukachevsky, Sjukov, Vladimir Smirnov (great guy by the way), Sabina Spielrein, Shostakovitsj, Kandinsky, Sikorsky, Todleben, Kalashnikov, Lilya Litvak, Eisenstein ... etc.? A nation powerful enough to beat back the Germans in the Great patriotic war?
How can one look down on such a nation and such people?
You think we look down on you, just because of some crooked bussinessmen from the West trying to make an opportunity in the post Soviet "bussiness age" in Russia. Just to give you some encouragement, those guys will show up anywhere there's an oportunity for dabbling with people new to market economy.
Anyway, how much harder did life actually become for the average Russian citizen after the collapse of Soviet Union, and how do you value the situation today compared to the days of Gorbatchev and Yeltsin?
Finaly just for curiosity how would you rank the following famous Russian/Soviet historical personalities?

Stalin, Tolstoj, Tsjaikovsky, Sjukov, Thukachevsky, Todleben, Ivan the Great, Puskin, Karpov, Solshynetsin.

Well, that's many questions, but that's my way of approaching life.


No I didn't miss ****!

Those airborne troops went through the same type of welcome "As seen on the original video"

However, in march of 2000 6th platoon of 104th division faced over 1500 animals in Chechnya on the hill numbered "776" near Ulus-Kert

There were about 90 Russian paratroopers. They had a way out, they could of simply walked back and let the Chechen terrorists come through to Dagestan, and all the way to Moscow.

They were offered 2 million dollars in cash over the radio by Khattab himself to back off.

Our guys knew that going back is not in VDV's blood and history. They knew they were outnumbered 1 to 15.

For each Russian paratrooper, Khattab had 15 mudjaheds. All of whom well trained, and went through many terrorist camps before merging with native Chechens.

Kombat Mark Evtuhin knew that his boys were not some bitches, or momy boys. Each one of them experienced the same "welcome" traditions, and harsh training. They passed it, they fought back against their "granfathers", and that made them stronger inside.

You know how? The big mean bad "grandfathers" tried to put them down in their basic. But they didn't give up, and through blood, bruises, broken teeth fought they way trhough training.

Later they found themselves on the Hill 776.

9 2 paratroopers vs 1500

They didn't give up, didn't go crying for help, and run home. They stayed, and fought till last bullet.
DEATH IS BETTER THAN DISHONOR was their motto.

Khatab **** his pants when he sent his left overs to pick up the dead mudjaheds. The hill was covered with arab meat. He wasn't expecting this kind of embarassing defeat.

Basaev warned Khattab on the radio that night.
Here is a brief conversation that was recorded by our recievers.

-Salam Maleikum Shamil
-Maleikum Asalam, where are you?
-680 Argun-UlusKert, we are going to break now.
-Who is your wall? Mahra(infantry) ?
-No, fukin Goblins (VDV)
-Goblins, Hatab insha Allah, back off. They will not let you through
-Fuk them, I will kill them all. Alahy Akbar
-Your call Amir, I warned you. They are crazy......


Here is a conversation between Mark Evtuhin and Khatab. Recorded by Perm Omon's recievers. (V.Makarov's OMON was on the way for help)

with heavy middle eastern accent, tries to speak Russian
-Komandir, this is Khatab. Listen, get out of my way. I know you there. We saw your recon group. (that recon group took out 38 Chechens, trying to recon on them)
-Khattab, we are staying here, not going anywhere.
-Komandir, I will give you 2 million bucks. Get out of my way, you can take the money, and buy a nice car in your poor Russia. Feed your kids.
-Do you speak Russian? I said we are staying, and if you want us, come here and talk.
-Listen Russian pig, I have 15 brave mudjaheds for your every young puppie. They just finished sharpening their kinjals, they are ready. You hear me Komandir.
-Yeah, I hear you. Send them here.

After 6 hours of fight, Khatabs right hand Abu Idris was killed by Nikolai S. He shot the arab fuk, with his last bullet. He came to take his Stechkin off of him, and faced 4 more Arab mercs. He took out his bayonet, and jumped on them. Killing one instantly, and slicing another one. But he was shot by shaking scared chechen. Yeah, there is your bravery. Russian fighter comes at you with a knife, and you shoot him.

Sorry but Chechens are known to be brave, and good with their knives. He just **** his pants.

At 4am Khatab came back on the radio.

-Komandir, now you pissed me off. I will come cut you like goats, I swear on my mother. Alah akbaaar
-Hey speaking of goats and lamb, come pick yours up. They are scattered around the hill.

By the morning of the third day, there were 8 guys left on our side. Kombat Mark Evtuhin, Aleksei Komarov (i've been talking to him, and sending him cash for help), and 6 other guys.

Mark Evtuhin ordered the remaining 6 guys to go home, and grow kids to be like them. He even shot by their feet to make them move, and leave their comander.

This is when the bravest man shot tears out, while walking away, and looking at thei legless comander grabing the radio, and using his dead Lt's body for cover to make this speach on the radio.

-71, this is Sokol. Send artel' my way. Here are the coordinates....
Tell me wife, and my daughter I love them. And tell everyone - MY BOYS FOUGHT TILL THE END
LONG LIVE RUSSIA over..............




now lets hear Swedish experiences.

[Birra]

I should perhaps explain a bit more about the system for punishment in the Swedish army and the reasons why punishment is not needed very often.

Let's use the example with the soldier refusing to carry an ammo crate. The first thing that would happen would of course be that the officer in charge would tell him once again in a very loud manner, if he still refuses the rest of the group will carry the crate instead and the guy will end up looking like a weak asshole in front of his comrades. What kind of man lets his comrades down and do the work he is to lazy to do? The answer is no one, a person like that does that is not a man, he's a worhtless pansy.
Later on he will be asked by his captain to explain himself and since there are no excuses for disobeying orders he will end up loosing half a months pay, also, refusing to obey orders will show up in this grades when his service is over, this will show any future employers that he's not a team player. In addition to this he will spend a few evenings chopping wood when the rest of the company has time of.
But as i said this seldom happens, only once during 10 months did i see a soldier refusing to obey orders, and he changed his mind as soon as the captain showed up.

Also, days ending at 1700 is not that common as you may have been lead to believe. Much time is spent in the field where you are in service 24/7. When at the barracks you have quipment to take care of, the grunts clean tents, weapons and stuff like thet, the crews of course spend most of their time in the garage working with their vehicles. This is stuff that has to be done so if that means working till three in the morning then so be it.

A swedish soldier is not motivated by fear of his superiors, but of loyalty to the guy next to him. this is an exploit of the fact that man has always lived in groups and therefor wants to fit in. Of course the officers gives you a hard time, especially the first two or three weeks, but the purpose of this is not to make the soldiers fear them but rather to make the groups work together.
You say that the russian system has been around since Peter the great, well this is also the problem, Peters army was built of men no more free than slaves so naturaly dicipline was enforced the same way as you enfore dicipline with slaves, that is with violence, you can't really threaten a slave with anything but violence and death. Given Russian history up untill the 1990's this has worked fine.

[Undo]

There were many circumstances that contributed to this incident on hill 776. It is too much for me to write about at this time, but I will touch on some of the major points. This is all from memory, so don't hold it against me if it isn't exact.

To begin with, the Russian forces were screening the area for a large force of foriegn terrorists thought to be moving into Dagestan. VDV units were tasked to guard certain mountain passes thought to be unlikely avenues for the terrorists while the main force set up in ambush along the most likely route. Unfortunately for the VDV on hill 776, the terrorists were headed right for them. Artillery and air support were both available, but artillery was impossible to call acurately because the main terrorist force location was unknown due to weather. Weather also prevented air support from lending assistance. On top of this, due to one of the few mistakes made by the VDV guys, the main body of the terrorist force was on top of them immediately, making artillery and air support impracticle. As soon as the attack began reinforcements were dispatched, but the terrain was very rugged and the reinforcing units encountered a seperate terrorist element and was bogged down in the insuing fight. As illustrated by the young conscripts that the Captain sent home, the VDV guys could have walked away at any time, but chose to stand their ground. There were many instances of incredible bravery displayed by the VDV soldiers in this engagement, which literally turned into a hand to hand battle.

The VDV guys did make some mistakes, largely due to intelligence they had which indicated that they were unlikely to encounter the terrorist force, but I personally think that they acquited themselves quite well once the bullets started to fly.

There is an afteraction report written by an American paratrooper somewhere out there. I will try to find it later.

[jamesp]

There is an afteraction report written by an American paratrooper somewhere out there. I will try to find it later.



http://www-cgsc.army.mil/milrev/english/JulAug01/almanac.asp

Is this what you mean? Scroll down a little.

Do you know of any other sites where I can find info about large battles of Chechen war?

[Undo]

[quote=Undo]There is an afteraction report written by an American paratrooper somewhere out there. I will try to find it later.



http://www-cgsc.army.mil/milrev/english/JulAug01/almanac.asp

Is this what you mean? Scroll down a little.

quote]

Yup, that's it. Thanks for tracking it down.

[serbian boy]

Hey, my uncle was T-55 tank commander in Bosnia! :D
Whow your guy's tank crews must suck 72 round to take out one T-55! :(
You know your actually supposed to teach the gunner how to use his cannon before sending him into combat situation! :P

[Marmot1]

Fragment of this report....


However much the Russian official line emphasizes the heroism of 6th Company paratroopers, the results of the official inquiry ordered by President Vladmir Putin was professionally blunt. The force was accused of "slovenliness, laxity and unprofessionalism."34 The force showed a glaring loss of basic tactical skills at the company level during the encounters. Such basic tactical considerations should have been uppermost in the company officers' minds. Whether this was a local aberration or indicates pervasive problems throughout Russian Army elite forces, the VDV's failure poses important questions about Russian capabilities. While the VDV performed credibly and often with distinction in the Second Chechen War, there have been enough blatant exceptions to conclude that even the VDV's skills are no longer of a uniform high standard, despite Shpak's reforms.

[Undo]

Fragment of this report....


However much the Russian official line emphasizes the heroism of 6th Company paratroopers, the results of the official inquiry ordered by President Vladmir Putin was professionally blunt. The force was accused of "slovenliness, laxity and unprofessionalism."34 The force showed a glaring loss of basic tactical skills at the company level during the encounters. Such basic tactical considerations should have been uppermost in the company officers' minds. Whether this was a local aberration or indicates pervasive problems throughout Russian Army elite forces, the VDV's failure poses important questions about Russian capabilities. While the VDV performed credibly and often with distinction in the Second Chechen War, there have been enough blatant exceptions to conclude that even the VDV's skills are no longer of a uniform high standard, despite Shpak's reforms.

What point are you trying to make?

[Russian Texan]

Marmot,
Here is another fragment :)


On the positive side, 6th Company recovered and fought well against enormous odds once it moved to Hill 776 under the effective leadership of the battalion commander and his deputy. Other Russian airborne and SPETSNAZ forces in the area, responding to reinforce 6th Company, fought their way into the area and eventually stopped the Chechen breakout. All this occurred in enormously difficult terrain and weather conditions and against tenacious Chechen resistance. Because the Chechens are notoriously atrocity-****e, especially toward members of the more elite Russian military organizations, fighting to the death makes a necessity.

Media reports consistently indicate that no 6th Company soldiers were taken prisoner. They refused to give up their position, even while knowing they would be overrun and killed. The VDV is known as an elite force composed of soldiers with high morale, discipline and a sense of purpose. Their actions make it clear that this characterization held true. Despite glaring tactical mistakes in security and reconnaissance, the Russian airborne spirit successfully imbued its men with the morale and courage that come with pride of corps.

Why are you trying to twist everything and portray it in a negative way?

[Russian Texan]

Well those guys were cornered right?
Wrong

How come they were surrounded in the first place by that many men, and that higher command didn't respond before it was too late?
Read the article

And at least some of those higher up responsible for putting those brave VDV's in that predicament, they are still around aren't they, protected by connections and cover ups?
How much artillery/air support did those VDV's enjoy?
None untill it was too late

If those guys had taken bribes, FSB would have got wind of it sooner or later right?
They didn't have to fight but they chose to, it is something that you do when you have cojones

And what would the legal system have done with those guys, after catching them if they had been taking bribes?
Anyway if they had said yes to bribes, could they have been shure the Chechens would have kept their part of the agreement? (I wouldn't have trusted them for shure, and neither would you I suppose?)
Why not to trust 'em, they are just peaceful freedom loving people that are fighting against evil empire?

And though off course you have some reliable units, there shure must be some other ones not all that steady.
As in any military in the world. Some units are just better than others

How else could the chechens do those hospital hijacks far away from Chechenya and the Moscow theatre thing? No bribes involved in those instances right?
What does this have to do with the morale in the Russian army?

How come the large numbers of soviet citizens serving under arms for the Germans during WW-2, and those "Afghan Russians"? They changed side, as the mischiveous individuals they were, because there was too litle dedovschina in their units?
Absolutely irrelevant comment, read up on history of WWII and USSR. What no norwegians served germans?

Afgan Russians. Are you basing your opinion of entire armed forces on the action of two cowardly man? What about that US soldier that threw a grenade into the tent full of his comrades, does this mean US military suffers from low morale also?

As for your statement on the need for dedovschina in order discipline soldiers, it appears as if a russian soldier left on his own without an officer or nco around to bully him would just sit on their asses, because its 06.30 in the morning.

Are you just making conversation or you really low on intellect to think so?

So in your opinion is it a good ting to have to resort to draconian measures to in order to make anybody do something?
Isn't what's given above a sign saying there's something fundamentaly wrong in the machinery?
Read this thread again.

Is more dedovschina and other forms of oppresion of your own fellow citizens the answer to straighten out and fix the machinery?
Dedovschina is an institution in Russian armed forces not particular only to the Soviet of post-Soviet era, but dating well back to the days of the Tsarist army right?
From my little knowledge ( key phrase) of Russian soldiers in common you seem resourceful when it comes to basic fieldcraft like mending by with little, stitching/mending worn personal gear/clothing shoes, live off the land and such stuff.
Yet how is the ability of the average recruit in the russian army, with regards to employing infusion liquid to wounded, first aid, use of map and compass, ability to direct artilery, recognition of own vs. enemy equipment, use of radio/signals procedures etc?
Same as in any other military. I doubt that an average infantry grunt in British or US army knows how to direct airstrikes and decrypt radio transmissions.

On a recent refreshment call up, think we did away with 400-500 rounds each on the range in 2 days.
Good for you

Yet I'll flatly admit that those doing conscription at present in Norway, get a much better and systematic training regime than in my days.
Up until recently military training in Sweden appears to have been more systematic and of better average quality than in my country,

How big is Norwegian army? It is small business vs large business. Small military is much easier/cheaper to equip and maintain training standarts but it has very limited capabilities. Size matters

though nowdays with international commitments things have been thightened up (though still withouth any regimented system of bullying).
As for cornered Scandinavian soldiers, by comparison at Suomisalmi during the winter war a ragtag improvised brigade sized battlegroup of Finns, with support weapons limited to machine guns and a few mortars, managed to anihilate 2 whole Soviet divisions well equipped with tanks and artilery.
So? What was the geography/topography of the battlefield? One properly armed person in a narrow hallway can hold back an entire army...

Much the same odds as your VDV vs. al Qaida story.
No. Read the story again

Now being fairly critical to you above, you think I look down on Russia or Russians?
Do I or any other Russians here really care?

Well, can aswer that straight away.
How can anyone look down on a nation producing such greats as Tolstoj, Pushkin, Tsjaikovski, Prokofiev, Thukachevsky, Sjukov, Vladimir Smirnov (great guy by the way), Sabina Spielrein, Shostakovitsj, Kandinsky, Sikorsky, Todleben, Kalashnikov, Lilya Litvak, Eisenstein ... etc.? A nation powerful enough to beat back the Germans in the Great patriotic war?
How can one look down on such a nation and such people?
You think we look down on you, just because of some crooked bussinessmen from the West trying to make an opportunity in the post Soviet "bussiness age" in Russia. Just to give you some encouragement, those guys will show up anywhere there's an oportunity for dabbling with people new to market economy.
Anyway, how much harder did life actually become for the average Russian citizen after the collapse of Soviet Union, and how do you value the situation today compared to the days of Gorbatchev and Yeltsin?
Finaly just for curiosity how would you rank the following famous Russian/Soviet historical personalities?

Stalin, Tolstoj, Tsjaikovsky, Sjukov, Thukachevsky, Todleben, Ivan the Great, Puskin, Karpov, Solshynetsin.

Well, that's many questions, but that's my way of approaching life.
Those questions have nothing to do with dedovschina

[TriggerPuller]

RT, you live in the U.S. now what is the deal with that Soviet flag of yours?

TP

[Jack Mehoff]

He's a spy

[Russian Texan]

RT, you live in the U.S. now what is the deal with that Soviet flag of yours?

TP
Try clicking on it :)
Part joke, part childhood nostalgie, part pride of heritage, part just to pist people off...

[Kingpin]

RT, you live in the U.S. now what is the deal with that Soviet flag of yours?

TP
Try clicking on it :)
Part joke, part childhood nostalgie, part pride of heritage, part just to pist people off...

Мне не нравится, что этот тред постоянно плавает наверху. Хочу чтобы он уехал с первой страницы. Спредлагаю прекратить любые дискуссии тут.

[tony6]

Kingpin:
If You want this thread to vanish from main site of this forum-why don't You keep on posting here?
:D

[mustamato]

Another true story from Unicorn, taken from the 13th post from below:
http://www.shellkonto.nu/bluenine/soldf/index.php?showtopic=5506&st=60


22th of February 1994:

The Batallion had by UN been ordered to open a special road, the so called "Mario Road" for help convoys. "Mario Road" was except a narrow road that lied on the high and steep Milankovici the only road that could be used to give supplies to the helpneeding people in northern Bosnia. The problem was that a couple of kilometers of the road went through a deep valley - in the middle of the fighting sides. The mountains on one side was held by bosnian government troops, while the other side was held by BSA, bosnian serb army. All of the UN-vehicles that had made attempts to recon the road had been fired upon, and from swedish side the fire had been anwered.

Thus, the road had to be held open with the power of arms, and for this we left a beautiful february day to recon firing positions for the swedish batallions ATGM´s. The missiles should, if the convoy was fired upon, be fired against targets on the serbian side of the front. Thus, we operated from the bosnian side. We were 24 soldiers that was transported in APC´s, model Pbv302. One of them, the one I was riding, was a command version, where except I self, the company commander and a local interpretor, also was a nurse and the batallion doctor. They followed along as observers. And it should prove suitable to have them along.

We left early on the morning. Before we closed the heavy hydrualic hatches on our APV, it hit my that everything looked like a beautiful winter day back home in Sweden. Except that the mountains were steeper and higher, we travelled through what looked like a pineforest in Norrland.

The snow had begun to melt from the threes, but the roads was still covered with snow. A plow-vehicle had not been seen on years along the Mario Road, because both the lack of fuel and the constant firing made the road a unpleasant visit for plow-vehicles. For us it was just good, because tracked vehicles feel better on hard snow than dry asphalt.

We were now really "out on the countryside" and stopped at a village a few kilometers from our goal. The company commander stepped out of the vehicle and visisted a bosnian checkpoint to talk with two bosnian officers that was going to show us the road. As the company commanders bodyguard I followed along. After the usual Slivovic-ceremonies we left.

With the help of our interpretor we managed to get it clear for the bosnians that we wouldn´t want to draw fire upon us and agreed that they would show us a suitable place for the vehicles. From this place we would then travel on foot to a hill that gave us a good view over the serbian positions.

The two bosnians took place in our vehicle and we took lead, The road went along the mountainside of the bosnian part of the front. We stopped a bit up the mountain were the road become wider. Because the mountain was wider there was no trees big enough to hide our APC´s. For safety the vehicles with their 20 mm automatic cannon were thus turned against the front.

We left for foot to recon. The weather was excellent with a clear sight to all directions. Good weather for a walk, simply. Unfortunately because of the clear weather we were seen as well in our UN-blue helmets. A serbian sniper had seen us and fired a couple of rounds. The distance was too far though and they hit 15-20 meters away. No one took any special notice of this and the recon continued.

When we were ready measuring and taking photos of the serbian positions we returned to the APC´s for a light lunch. What we didn´t know was that a serbian AT-3 gunner had us in sight the latest hour in his position about 3 kilometers away. Now he sat there and waited for us to get into the vehicle and close the hatches. A skilled ATGM-gunner knows that closed hatches gives a better effect at hit. The pressure and the shrapnels does that no one would survive - atleast in theory.

Because I was as usual hungrier than everyone else I got extra sandwiches, sausage and apples that was left over. While I still was eating my last apple and forced into myself the last coffe all took place in the vehicle. The driver started the engine to heat it up. I throwed away my apple, entered the vehicle as last man and closed the heavy armoured door. At the same time a serbian soldier on the other side of the valley fired his soviet-built, wire-guided AT-3 "Sagger" ATGM, to what was to become a perfect hit on the target.

I know the sound when a ATGM hits the target. It´s a sound neither I or my ears will ever forget.

The hit, that in reality took a thousand of a second, is in my memory eternally long. I remember the fire that hit backwards from the drivers seat. I remember how it felt like the 14 ton heavy vehicle lifted from the ground. I remember how I saw debris and shrapnel flying backwards with the pressure blast. I remembered that I lifted from the seat and felt like I was floating. I remember how I waited a eternity to feel the first heat to red shrapnel hit my body, and I remember how i became more surprised than reliefed when it did not happen.

Something that has etched in my memory is the total silence that followed the bang. Dead silenct. Still.

The vehicle began to fill with smoke, and you could hear the fire of burning electric cables. The engine was silent. The gunner began to scream indistinct, and I tried to get to know how many had been hurt in the vehicle. We must get out of here. Now.

The driver, that i tought was dead, woke up and tried to start the engine. The starting engine worked, but unfortunately it didn´t have any engine to start. The missile had cleaned out the engine. Now we satt there with our beards in the mailbox and waited for the coup de grace. The company commander and I opened the bakdoor on our side and began to throw people out of the vehicle. Only one was hurt as a miracle, the driver, and he with his shrapnel in the leg, he was stuck in the front end of the vehice.

When they tried to get the driver out of the vehicle I saw and heard how a bullet cut of a pinetree-branch. I said this, but have afterwards understood that no one understood what I said. Heavy machinegun-fire began to hit down around the vehicle. On my own initiative I took up a firing position at the front of the vehicle and begun to answer to fire with my assault rifle. The vehicles commander did likewise. He also tried to fire the vehicles smoke, but some peace-time man in Sweden had for our safety made it so that it couldn´t be done if all the hatches were not closed. We thank him for his consern, but if you have just been hit by a ATGM there is a plenty of hatches that CAN´T be closed without extensive repairs.

Because the radio didn´t work our company commander gave me order to try to get contact with the other vehicles that had left the place immediately when we was hit. I rub backwards after the vehicle that had left the place last. It was slowely climbing the hill down 100 meters away. To get there I was forces to run over a 30-40 meter open area before I could come in protection behind a hill.

Despite my heavy battle equipment I don´t think a world champion could have run past me on that distance. I ran like a gazelle and in every moment it felt a 12.7 bullet kid hit me leg off. Still, I didn´t feel scared. I remember that I thought that it felt strange. However I obviously looked too little and unimportant enought to someone to sacrifice a bullet on me.

Our last link to the world was now going behind a curve and should soon not be visible any longer. I shouted to them and because I have never learned how to whistle I even fired a couple of rounds in the air. Nothing helped. Now we where alone. And now I saw that our company commander had followed me. That man was not easy to bodyguard, when he as fast I turned my back decided to run throgh machinegun fire.

We both ran like gazelles back to the vehicle. The driver was just get out of the vehicle. He was not consciousness and had good spirit, but couldn´t walk without help. He was carried away to protection behind a hill a bit away from the vehicle where he could get morphin from the nurse. One of the bosnian officers had get their hands on a swedish AK5, which he now cocked. He didn´t had time for more when our doctor took the weapon from him. I myself smiled at this diplomatic conflict in miniature, before I took my firing position at the front end of the vehicle again.

A bullet hit in a rock some meters from me and exploded in a oval, yellow fireball. I realized that the gunner in the serbian nest was using the same type of explosive 12.7-ammunition as we were using. This was not good since it atleast according to specification could penetrate the armour of a Pbv302. I continued to fire against the nest. Mostly because to irritate the gunner. Our Pbv-gunner climbed back in the vehicle and emptied what was found in the 20 mm cannons magazines against the enemy. The company commander managed to get the radio to work and got contact with the third vehicle, that had noted that we were missing and were heading back.

I changed magazine in my weapon and put the half empty magazine inside my jacket. So that the third vehicle should not enter the same faith as we did I had to run over the open area one more time to meet them. The gazellian legs woke to life again and I met them in protection behind the hill. I warned them to drive to far ahead because we were under fire. The vehicles commander said that he was going to roll a bit ahead so that the vehicle could use its 20 mm automatic cannon. I said that sounded like a excellent idea and ran back to my firing position.

When I came back I saw to my surprise two soldiers in front of the vehicle that calmly was picking up the clothes that had been in the blown away storage boxes. We yelled at them to dissapear, and they started to note that there was some strange noices rattling around their legs. They had probably not been connected to the Intercom and didn´t understand the situations seriousness. They understood it now anyway - and dissapeared like two pension payments from a drugaddicsts pocket.

The company commander gave order about pulling back and I rounded the corner of our vehicle. And to my horror I saw the vehicle standing quite far ahead, and half way up the sloap. The vehicles commander was covered with soot and he had no helmet, it dissapeared down the hatch. Thick black smoke started to come from the engine. Screams for help was heared from the vehicle.

I realized that they had been hit as well. Like a miracle they managed to turn around, and the APC was now slowly going down the narrow road. We now pulled back alternaly, me and the company commander as the last ones, and I managed to some bosnians soldiers joy during my run fall and drive the assault rifles barrel down in mud and ice. I considered to clean the rifle but when seeing the monumental size of the mud and ice I decided that I had fired enough today.

The vehicles commander and I volunteered to guard the vehicle until re-inforcements arrived. But the company commander decided to pull back all personel from the area. Probably a wise decision.

We followed the track of the badly wrecked vehicle that after about 3 kilometers finally stopped when the engine stopped working. Now there was also some air support in form of a couple of Harriers. Of course we had no use of them, but it was a nice geasture.

Except our driver that we carried along, another two injured were taken from the other APC we had followed down the valley. Bloody boots and clothes were shining red against the snow. And the steel floor of the APC looked like a butchers bench. Drop was put in, morphin was given and a family in a farm above our improvised medic cabin gave water, they gave what they had.

We also got to know that two badly injured soldiers were in the APC that I had yelled and fired ofter. They had been standing in the hatches and had been injured by the shrapnel from the hit on our vehicle.

When we examined the recently fallen asleep APC we discovered that it had been hit in the side. The blast had gone in on the one side, and out from the other. Another perfect hit in the side. The blast had gone in under the gunner in his turret, hit surprisingly no ammunition, passed on behind the divers back, cut a long notch thru the floor on the vehicle commanders side and took it a piece of his boot before it passed out above the track on the other side. A soldier took of his hearing protection and noticed that a shrapnel had made a notch straight thru the padding, without even making a scratch in the plastic or his head.

Gunner, driver and commander from our vehicle now discovered that their jackets zippers had broken. The pressure blast had principally undressed them both the jacket and their protective vest. Sooner it showed out that the hit had been in the middle of the front, passed in the middle between driver and gunner. In to the engines compartment and stopped in the engine. The engines plate to the squads compartment was bent, but it had held. The hydrualic hatches had been blown up by the pressure.

We were picked up by a SISU and were transported to the camp. With still some soot covering our faces we got a Pilsner and debriefing in the sauna. All then got to call home five minutes on the satellit phone. Very appreciated I can tell you.

This story can never be complete without telling about the driver in the vehicle I tried to stop, unknowing about how badly hurt they were:

The vehicles commander and the driver stood up in their hatches five meters from our vehicle when we were hit. Both were hit by shrapnel from our vehicle. Blind on his one eye and seriously bleeding the driver turned the APC and began to drive away on the narrow road. When he was driving on the road that just could take the APC with a cliff on the one side he was putting a first aid bandage on himself, and his vehicle commander. The driver then refused to stop before the point where radio contact could be established with base, despite that no one could take care of his injuries.

THAT is what I call a real soldier...

http://www.ludd.luth.se/~antenna/t2k/veh/bilder/pbv302.jpg
This is a Pbv 302. Although they were painted UN-white.

http://home.swipnet.se/~w-42039/PBV3029..JPG
Storage racks on front, as mentioned in the text

[Sorbas2000]

Here is our airborne

We are still waiting for Swedish photos of your airborne.

Thanks to Igor01 (from Gunsnet)
http://mishami.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875206.1801.jpg
http://mishuna.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875391.spetsnaz_86.jpg
http://mishilo.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875385.spetsnaz_27.jpg
http://mishopi.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875382.2201.jpg
http://mishami.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875192.44.jpg
http://misheli.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875191.33.jpg
http://mishappa.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875190.31.jpg
http://mishopi.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875193.45.jpg
http://mishoga.image.pbase.com/u11/igor01/upload/6703689.chech31.jpg
http://misheli.image.pbase.com/u9/igor01/upload/1798002.6473.jpg
http://mishopi.image.pbase.com/u11/igor01/upload/6703688.chech09.jpg
http://misheli.image.pbase.com/u11/igor01/upload/6703686.chech06.jpg
http://mishoga.image.pbase.com/u9/igor01/medium/1797998.6468.jpg

First picture is the best one: russian airborne with rubber boozts!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

@mustamato

it's not worth to discuss with guys like russian texan. for them russian army is the best one in the world, russian training is the very best, to kick each other is normal, russia has so much weapons so it's ok to sell your AK to your enemy, just to get some cheap vodka. let them believe that they are great. we just have to see what's happening in afghanistan or in chechniya to know, how good they are really.

BTW, I really like the swedish army. For an 9 million nation you have hundrets of nice JAS-39, Viggen, 900 CV-90 (one of the really best IFV), most modern Leopard-2, Bill, Giraffe ABM, nice submarines, Visby.

If countries like russia try to mess with sweden, they would be kicked like 1939 in finland! :lol:

[RomanS]

Here is our airborne

We are still waiting for Swedish photos of your airborne.

Thanks to Igor01 (from Gunsnet)
http://mishami.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875206.1801.jpg
http://mishuna.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875391.spetsnaz_86.jpg
http://mishilo.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875385.spetsnaz_27.jpg
http://mishopi.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875382.2201.jpg
http://mishami.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875192.44.jpg
http://misheli.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875191.33.jpg
http://mishappa.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875190.31.jpg
http://mishopi.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875193.45.jpg
http://mishoga.image.pbase.com/u11/igor01/upload/6703689.chech31.jpg
http://misheli.image.pbase.com/u9/igor01/upload/1798002.6473.jpg
http://mishopi.image.pbase.com/u11/igor01/upload/6703688.chech09.jpg
http://misheli.image.pbase.com/u11/igor01/upload/6703686.chech06.jpg
http://mishoga.image.pbase.com/u9/igor01/medium/1797998.6468.jpg

First picture is the best one: russian airborne with rubber boozts!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

@mustamato

it's not worth to discuss with guys like russian texan. for them russian army is the best one in the world, russian training is the very best, to kick each other is normal, russia has so much weapons so it's ok to sell your AK to your enemy, just to get some cheap vodka. let them believe that they are great. we just have to see what's happening in afghanistan or in chechniya to know, how good they are really.

BTW, I really like the swedish army. For an 9 million nation you have hundrets of nice JAS-39, Viggen, 900 CV-90 (one of the really best IFV), most modern Leopard-2, Bill, Giraffe ABM, nice submarines, Visby.

If countries like russia try to mess with sweden, they would be kicked like 1939 in finland! :lol:

Good people

let me be the one and only one to respond. Other people, please don't feed the troll.

Here are some NEWS from SWEDEN (saying it in the gay accent)
http://suicidegirls.com/boards/Current+Events/32950/

As for "If countries like russia try to mess with sweden, they would be kicked like 1939 in finland! "

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
AHahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaahhahahaahahhaahhahahahahahahaha


ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaah
hhaha


hahaha


oh my stomach , breath breath breath


ahahahahahahahahahhaa rofl rofl rofl

ahahahahahahahahahhahaha

ahahahah


oh god

ahahahahahahhahahahahha
hahah

stop

ahahahahahahahahahaahhaha

[Sorbas2000]

Here is our airborne

We are still waiting for Swedish photos of your airborne.

Thanks to Igor01 (from Gunsnet)
http://mishami.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875206.1801.jpg
http://mishuna.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875391.spetsnaz_86.jpg
http://mishilo.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875385.spetsnaz_27.jpg
http://mishopi.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875382.2201.jpg
http://mishami.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875192.44.jpg
http://misheli.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875191.33.jpg
http://mishappa.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875190.31.jpg
http://mishopi.image.pbase.com/u19/igor01/upload/8875193.45.jpg
http://mishoga.image.pbase.com/u11/igor01/upload/6703689.chech31.jpg
http://misheli.image.pbase.com/u9/igor01/upload/1798002.6473.jpg
http://mishopi.image.pbase.com/u11/igor01/upload/6703688.chech09.jpg
http://misheli.image.pbase.com/u11/igor01/upload/6703686.chech06.jpg
http://mishoga.image.pbase.com/u9/igor01/medium/1797998.6468.jpg

First picture is the best one: russian airborne with rubber boozts!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

@mustamato

it's not worth to discuss with guys like russian texan. for them russian army is the best one in the world, russian training is the very best, to kick each other is normal, russia has so much weapons so it's ok to sell your AK to your enemy, just to get some cheap vodka. let them believe that they are great. we just have to see what's happening in afghanistan or in chechniya to know, how good they are really.

BTW, I really like the swedish army. For an 9 million nation you have hundrets of nice JAS-39, Viggen, 900 CV-90 (one of the really best IFV), most modern Leopard-2, Bill, Giraffe ABM, nice submarines, Visby.

If countries like russia try to mess with sweden, they would be kicked like 1939 in finland! :lol:

Good people

let me be the one and only one to respond. Other people, please don't feed the troll.

Here are some NEWS from SWEDEN (saying it in the gay accent)
http://suicidegirls.com/boards/Current+Events/32950/

As for "If countries like russia try to mess with sweden, they would be kicked like 1939 in finland! "

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
AHahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaahhahahaahahhaahhahahahahahahaha


ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaah
hhaha


hahaha


oh my stomach , breath breath breath


ahahahahahahahahahhaa rofl rofl rofl

ahahahahahahahahahhahaha

ahahahah


oh god

ahahahahahahhahahahahha
hahah

stop

ahahahahahahahahahaahhaha

Hey fat guy, it#s ok when you laughing...because it is realy healthy to laugh. but on the other hand your post haven't said anything. just hahahahah, is that all? i mean please, just have a look at every single picture that was posted from russian army. on every picture you always see russians that look like clochards! not talking about rusty submarines and armored weapons. every single picture just shows scrappy russian stuff. i would be shamed as a russian!

[RomanS]

Keep talking

THIS IS BETTER THAN Dave Chappelle

ahahahahhahahahhahaaahahhaahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaha

[Russian Texan]

Sobras, ran out of arguments? :)

There is no such thing as "The best military" but I do think that Russian military is more capable and experienced than Swedish or Finnish. ;)

[RomanS]

Texan bro,

dont argue with this fool .

Sweden looks good(in the nature form I mean)

Just imagine our guys going there. It would be a such of waste of good land.

Just one motorized division there, and when they will hear this ****, it will look much like Grozny in one week.

[Sorbas2000]

Sobras, ran out of arguments? :)

There is no such thing as "The best military" but I do think that Russian military is more capable and experienced than Swedish or Finnish. ;)

Yeah, maybe with nukes...but in a conventional war i wouldn't put my money on russia. to win against 240 brand new JAS-39 Gripen, brand new subs, well trained 340000 swedish soldiers, 1000 CV-90 IFV, 170 Leopard-2A5S, more Leopard-2A4, most modern ATGM, radar, communications, etc.... I guess, russia even could not mobilize 1000 BMP-1/2 against Sweden...not talking about additional 500 BMP-1 that are in swedish storrage. I mean russia has problems against chechniyan rebells, how it will win against well trained and equiped swedish or fin guys?

[Russian Texan]

I am not arguing, I am just commenting :)
Would you argue or even talk with a 16 year old if you met him in real life? :)

Sweden is a beautiful country but scandinavian people in general have a reputation for being "slow"...

Did you ever see "Osobennosti nacional'noj rybalki"?

[Javehn]

Well , according to Zurna2000 , he is more then 30 years old , and have done military duty .
And yet he has wonderfull insites .

[Russian Texan]

Sobras, ran out of arguments? :)

There is no such thing as "The best military" but I do think that Russian military is more capable and experienced than Swedish or Finnish. ;)

Yeah, maybe with nukes...but in a conventional war i wouldn't put my money on russia. to win against 240 brand new JAS-39 Gripen, brand new subs, well trained 340000 swedish soldiers, 1000 CV-90 IFV, 170 Leopard-2A5S, more Leopard-2A4, most modern ATGM, radar, communications, etc.... I guess, russia even could not mobilize 1000 BMP-1/2 against Sweden...not talking about additional 500 BMP-1 that are in swedish storrage. I mean russia has problems against chechniyan rebells, how it will win against well trained and equiped swedish or fin guys?

Tell me my young, hot headed friend: "Does retardness run in your family or you are the first one?"

Come back in a few years, lets say after you hit 21, and read this nonsense that you just wrote....

[Sorbas2000]

Texan bro,

dont argue with this fool .

Sweden looks good(in the nature form I mean)

Just imagine our guys going there. It would be a such of waste of good land.

Just one motorized division there, and when they will hear this ****, it will look much like Grozny in one week.

are you sure? i would bet within the first our in sweden, half of russian soldiers would desert and ask for swedish asylum! :lol: :lol: :lol:

the rest wouldn't have enough fuel to use your few scrappy BMPs or they would sold their AKs for some hard dollars to buy some swedish vodka!

[Maine Finn]

I am not arguing, I am just commenting :)
Would you argue or even talk with a 16 year old if you met him in real life? :)

Sweden is a beautiful country but scandinavian people in general have a reputation for being "slow"...


:D

I'm not going to argue with anybody, but define "slow". Guess you haven't see me run before!

I'm sorry, I just had to.

"Wow, that was the most pointless thing you've said today, Polvinen!!"
"I know, but somebody's gotta be stupid."

[RomanS]

Sobras, ran out of arguments? :)

There is no such thing as "The best military" but I do think that Russian military is more capable and experienced than Swedish or Finnish. ;)

Yeah, maybe with nukes...but in a conventional war i wouldn't put my money on russia. to win against 240 brand new JAS-39 Gripen, brand new subs, well trained 340000 swedish soldiers, 1000 CV-90 IFV, 170 Leopard-2A5S, more Leopard-2A4, most modern ATGM, radar, communications, etc.... I guess, russia even could not mobilize 1000 BMP-1/2 against Sweden...not talking about additional 500 BMP-1 that are in swedish storrage. I mean russia has problems against chechniyan rebells, how it will win against well trained and equiped swedish or fin guys?

yeah .... lol
WOW

i'm done with this topic


Hey ADMINS, is it possible to do AGE check when you Join?

[mustamato]

Just one motorized division there, and when they will hear this ****, it will look much like Grozny in one week.

That "just one division" comment reminds me about when the russian defence
minister prior to the first Chechen war said something similar. "We´ll send one
of our airborne divisions and it´ll take a week". After a couple of months 70% of
the division had been finished of. So there is difference between a russian talking
and his actions. A very large difference I´d say :)

[Sorbas2000]

Sobras, ran out of arguments? :)

There is no such thing as "The best military" but I do think that Russian military is more capable and experienced than Swedish or Finnish. ;)

Yeah, maybe with nukes...but in a conventional war i wouldn't put my money on russia. to win against 240 brand new JAS-39 Gripen, brand new subs, well trained 340000 swedish soldiers, 1000 CV-90 IFV, 170 Leopard-2A5S, more Leopard-2A4, most modern ATGM, radar, communications, etc.... I guess, russia even could not mobilize 1000 BMP-1/2 against Sweden...not talking about additional 500 BMP-1 that are in swedish storrage. I mean russia has problems against chechniyan rebells, how it will win against well trained and equiped swedish or fin guys?

Tell me my young, hot headed friend: "Does retardness run in your family or you are the first one?"

Come back in a few years, lets say after you hit 21, and read this nonsense that you just wrote....

not everyone one in this forum is a 16 years old ****head! but my friend, when russia is so nice and the russian community is so developed, why have you fly to the empire of evel (USA)? just return to mother russia and live there! back again you can join good russian army and you can enjoy living in a rich and developed country, would you like to return?

[5jumpchump]

What the hell is a "clochard" ? :|

[Javehn]

Hey , Zurna , post where you wrote you 36 years old .
Why you edited it , and erased everything ? So you not only wannabe , prick , idiot , and also a big liar ?
And you keep writting ?

[Russian Texan]

I wasn't referring to running abilities.

Do not take it personal, I am sure its just an ethnic trait and any other ethnicity/nationality has their own but scandinavians are known to be "slow" in the way they talk, act, behave, etc. Those who have been to any scandinavian countries will get what am I talking about. It's like a "sleeping kingdom" overthere....

[Dalleer]

not everyone one in this forum is a 16 years old ****head!

Agreed, most certainly not. For an example, I myself am an 18-year old ****head.

[Russian Texan]

Just one motorized division there, and when they will hear this ****, it will look much like Grozny in one week.

That "just one division" comment reminds me about when the russian defence
minister prior to the first Chechen war said something similar. "We´ll send one
of our airborne divisions and it´ll take a week". After a couple of months 70% of
the division had been finished of. So there is difference between a russian talking
and his actions. A very large difference I´d say :)

He actually promised to take it with one regiment in 3 hours.

[5jumpchump]

Evil empire ??? Well we aren't an empire yet . As soon as we take all your sheep and house hold pets , molested billy goats and frowning sheep THEN , and only then , will we become this "Evil" empire . rofl

[Sorbas2000]

What the hell is a "clochard" ? :|

this ia a clochard!

http://www.la-grange.net/2002/10/13-clochard.jpg
http://www.anamorfose.be/images/streetlife43.jpg
http://czeczenia.weblab.pl/800/cz16km.jpg

[Russian Texan]

Did it ever occur to you that I might like US? :)
Check this out - I am thinking about joining NG if I will be able to incorporate it into my work schedule :)

[Sorbas2000]

Hey , Zurna , post where you wrote you 36 years old .
Why you edited it , and erased everything ? So you not only wannabe , prick , idiot , and also a big liar ?
And you keep writting ?

you nutter, I edited it because there were some grammer errors!

[Maine Finn]

I wasn't referring to running abilities.

Do not take it personal, I am sure its just an ethnic trait and any other ethnicity/nationality has their own but scandinavians are known to be "slow" in the way they talk, act, behave, etc. Those who have been to any scandinavian countries will get what am I talking about. It's like a "sleeping kingdom" overthere....

I realise that.... it was only an effort (a rather pathetic one, I might add) to get you guys to lighten up a bit. Don't worry, I'll leave my humour at home next time....



not everyone one in this forum is a 16 years old ****head!

Agreed, most certainly not. For an example, I myself am an 18-year old ****head.

I'm a 19 year-old of the same category... although "bitch" is more fitting a description for me, ask anyone who has had the misfortune to make me angry.

*scratches head* So much for trying to sound intelligent just now... I think I need to go back to high school, maybe. Hmm...

[Russian Texan]

I realise that.... it was only an effort (a rather pathetic one, I might add) to get you guys to lighten up a bit. Don't worry, I'll leave my humour at home next time....



Well there aren't too many people outside of Finland who can appreciate your humor guys ;)

[5jumpchump]

In finland what is the meaning of safe *** ?

Branding the sheep that kick !

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[Maine Finn]

In finland what is the meaning of safe *** ?

Branding the sheep that kick !

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

And you would know this.... how....?

I resent the label of "sheep", we're anything but.

[5jumpchump]

OK let me explain some things . First off it was a joke , I was just busting your chops . Secondly you didn't even get the joke -whew right over your head . I'm not implying the Finns are sheep . Pay attention do detail .
The joke clearly states the sheep are being branded for the purpose of safe *** . Meaning if you brand the sheep that kicked while you'r trying to have *** with it they are forever branded as kickers . So when your in the mood and you find a sheep that has been branded your in for a fight .
Thus you move on and find a sheep that hasn't been branded giving you all the love a fin needs . Sigh rofl rofl rofl

[Dalleer]

OK let me explain some things . First off it was a joke , I was just busting your chops . Secondly you didn't even get the joke -whew right over your head . I'm not implying the Finns are sheep . Pay attention do detail .
The joke clearly states the sheep are being branded for the purpose of safe *** . Meaning if you brand the sheep that kicked while you'r trying to have *** with it they are forever branded as kickers . So when your in the mood and you find a sheep that has been branded your in for a fight .
Thus you move on and find a sheep that hasn't been branded giving you all the love a fin needs . Sigh rofl rofl rofl

I'm sorry to have to give such "no joking"-impression out of myself, but this joke of yours was pretty low. Not to mention how dumb it was to start explaining all that filth...

[5jumpchump]

It is impossible to write/convey sarcasm without tagging it first -(sarcasm). Beyond that the joke was very simple , a quick laugh . When you took it as a personal attack on Finns by calling you sheep it was apparent that you completely missed the joke . Thus I had to explain everything so even an idiot (cough ) could understand the joke . So laugh damn it :backhand:

[mustamato]

To be able to laugh I think I must get the point first. How do you define sheep?
To me a sheep is something like this. So hm?

http://cdkenterprises.com/coloring/animals/sheep-jumping-fence.gif

[RomanS]

yes that is the animal you sick bastards molest in Sweden.

[Dalleer]

Thus you move on and find a sheep that hasn't been branded giving you all the love a fin needs

In whatever form you try to explain this "sarcastic" or "funny" joke of yours, it still portrays us in a bad light.

Honestly, I wouldn't care two cents about you or whoever else calling us sheep, since I did not exactly 'understand" the joke as branding us as sheep.

The joke "portrayed" us having *** with sheep, which upset me, I'm afraid.

And that joke was, above everything else quite absurd since Sheep and us Finns do not exactly have a place in the international "nationality joke book".

Honestly, how many of you have heard of the "Finn and the sheep"-jokes before this?

I bet alot of people would go "WTF?" if I'd start telling you jokes about "The American having *** with the yellow handbasket full of Belgian chocolate"

People would probably ask me "Why on earth does it have to be a yellow handbasket instead of a Bull from Texas?"

But I guess that you're more of an absurd joke fan...

[5jumpchump]

To be able to laugh I think I must get the point first. How do you define sheep?
To me a sheep is something like this. So hm?

http://cdkenterprises.com/coloring/animals/sheep-jumping-fence.gif


Yes that is a sheep alright . Notice how the legs are draped OVER the fence ? I believe this was the start of it all . Some country back wood mofo in Sweden just couldn't resist . From there the "clochard" told all his buddies what a fine time he had and then things got out of control . All his buddies joined in the fray and now countless animals across Sweden are molested - and the sad point is IT'S FREAKING LEGAL !!!

[Backis]

- and the sad point is IT'S FREAKING LEGAL !!!

Weird... they musta changed the law since I read it last time... This is called "tidelag" (bestiality) in Sweden, but it seems the law isn't enforced. :cantbeli:

[RomanS]

this photo came from the Swedish website actually



http://home.c-son.net/gallery/img/dscn7343.jpg

This guy Niklas has his webpage dedicated to his bitches
http://www.engineering.ucsb.edu/~niklas/figures/sweden2000/niklas_sheep.jpg

http://www.engineering.ucsb.edu/~niklas/figures/sweden2000/niklas_lamb.jpg

[Sorbas2000]

yes that is the animal you sick bastards molest in Sweden.

you know what permskijPederast....just shut up. you little fat scarface. dream on from your great special forces and stop this ****. i am not swedish, but if you call some european neighbours "sick bastards"...enough is enough!

[RomanS]

unless I'm banned from here, I say when its enough biatch!

Now take it, and ask for more.

don't forget who started it either!

[radon]

:cantbeli: I dont see anything abnormal on those swedish pictures. Just a average farmer or people living in the country. And I know 100% most people in Sweden dont have *** with animals.

[RomanS]

most people ?

rofl rofl

[RomanS]

what is this black sheep doing to this man?
http://www.engineering.ucsb.edu/~niklas/figures/sweden2000/niklas_sheep.jpg

[Sorbas2000]

unless I'm banned from here, I say when its enough biatch!

Now take it, and ask for more.

don't forget who started it either!

i wonder that mostly these russians are most patriotic, which do not live anymore in russia! if i am not wrong, you live in the states, isn't it so!? as well as russian texan...why have you leave russia, weather to the USA, Canada, Australia or Israel? maybe it#s not so nice in russia as you always mentioned?

[RomanS]

unless I'm banned from here, I say when its enough biatch!

Now take it, and ask for more.

don't forget who started it either!

i wonder that mostly these russians are most patriotic, which do not live anymore in russia! if i am not wrong, you live in the states, isn't it so!? as well as russian texan...why have you leave russia, weather to the USA, Canada, Australia or Israel? maybe it#s not so nice in russia as you always mentioned?

I came here to get education, and develop entertainment products.

Entertainment is just taking an early step in Russia, so to get an education here is the BEST in the world.

I didn't run here like some jewish Russians did, since i'm not one. I was baptized as Orthodox Christian.

I love Russia, and I love USA. And I AM HELL OF A PROUD PATRIOT of BOTH COUNTRIES!

I try to go to Russia every year, but its not cheap. I support my Russian brothers with money, and other finances.

Now where are you from ?

[Sorbas2000]

unless I'm banned from here, I say when its enough biatch!

Now take it, and ask for more.

don't forget who started it either!

i wonder that mostly these russians are most patriotic, which do not live anymore in russia! if i am not wrong, you live in the states, isn't it so!? as well as russian texan...why have you leave russia, weather to the USA, Canada, Australia or Israel? maybe it#s not so nice in russia as you always mentioned?

I came here to get education, and develop entertainment products.

Entertainment is just taking an early step in Russia, so to get an education here is the BEST in the world.

I didn't run here like some jewish Russians did, since i'm not one. I was baptized as Orthodox Christian.

I love Russia, and I love USA. And I AM HELL OF A PROUD PATRIOT of BOTH COUNTRIES!

I try to go to Russia every year, but its not cheap. I support my Russian brothers with money, and other finances.

Now where are you from ?

see, i am also othodox!

http://www.kirildouhalov.net/republic/rb-gerb.jpg

Горда Стара планина, до ней Дунава синей, слънце Тракия огрява,
над Пирина пламеней.

[5jumpchump]

Thus you move on and find a sheep that hasn't been branded giving you all the love a fin needs

In whatever form you try to explain this "sarcastic" or "funny" joke of yours, it still portrays us in a bad light.

Honestly, I wouldn't care two cents about you or whoever else calling us sheep, since I did not exactly 'understand" the joke as branding us as sheep.

The joke "portrayed" us having *** with sheep, which upset me, I'm afraid.

And that joke was, above everything else quite absurd since Sheep and us Finns do not exactly have a place in the international "nationality joke book".

Honestly, how many of you have heard of the "Finn and the sheep"-jokes before this?

I bet alot of people would go "WTF?" if I'd start telling you jokes about "The American having *** with the yellow handbasket full of Belgian chocolate"

People would probably ask me "Why on earth does it have to be a yellow handbasket instead of a Bull from Texas?"

But I guess that you're more of an absurd joke fan...

OMG dude are you serious , you still don't get it ? Ok I'll try again .
There are two meanings of the word branded . One - Branded :IE being labeled , ex: "he got caught robbing the bank , the biggest bank heist in history , and was branded a criminal "
Two - "Farmers brand their sheep with red hot metal initials and scar the animal so they can tell that the sheep is definitely theirs "

So if you can read and understand English you might be able to comprehend this , but I'm not making any bets . Beyond this short English lesson this joke can be applied to any people . On top of that it's a joke .
Ahhhh forget it , sorry if your offended . Now go find yourself a nice Billy goat then .


"The American having *** with the yellow handbasket full of Belgian chocolate" PS : you’re an awful comedian , don't quit your day job .

[RomanS]

unless I'm banned from here, I say when its enough biatch!

Now take it, and ask for more.

don't forget who started it either!

i wonder that mostly these russians are most patriotic, which do not live anymore in russia! if i am not wrong, you live in the states, isn't it so!? as well as russian texan...why have you leave russia, weather to the USA, Canada, Australia or Israel? maybe it#s not so nice in russia as you always mentioned?

I came here to get education, and develop entertainment products.

Entertainment is just taking an early step in Russia, so to get an education here is the BEST in the world.

I didn't run here like some jewish Russians did, since i'm not one. I was baptized as Orthodox Christian.

I love Russia, and I love USA. And I AM HELL OF A PROUD PATRIOT of BOTH COUNTRIES!

I try to go to Russia every year, but its not cheap. I support my Russian brothers with money, and other finances.

Now where are you from ?

see, i am also othodox!

http://www.kirildouhalov.net/republic/rb-gerb.jpg

Горда Стара планина, до ней Дунава синей, слънце Тракия огрява,
над Пирина пламеней.

Bulgarian?

then why the **** were saying stupid **** about our boys in Chechnya.

Like i said! if you bring it, then take it till the END, or dont bring it at all.

[Dalleer]

OMG dude are you serious , you still don't get it ? Ok I'll try again .
There are two meanings of the word branded . One - Branded :IE being labeled , ex: "he got caught robbing the bank , the biggest bank heist in history , and was branded a criminal "
Two - "Farmers brand their sheep with red hot metal initials and scar the animal so they can tell that the sheep is definitely theirs "

Oh damn, another "Chobbamdog"....

No matter how much you try to educate me of your vocabulary, it still does not change the fact that the joke was about us Finns having *** with Sheep, that people such as yourself seem to find very funny.

Besides, that joke was indeed one made with poor taste.



So if you can read and understand English you might be able to comprehend this , but I'm not making any bets

Yes, insulting me is going to get you very far. I urge you to keep it up.


Ahhhh forget it , sorry if your offended . Now go find yourself a nice Billy goat then .

On the other hand, I'm not offended at all that your lame joke didn't get all that much "laughs".

And yet again, I hope that people like you would mature enough before entering these forums since you have very little to contribute here besides your lame and childish jokes.

And on top of that you offend me like a 12-year old. What a charming way to make a start at this board?


"The American having *** with the yellow handbasket full of Belgian chocolate" PS : you’re an awful comedian , don't quit your day job .

Well, duh...

First of all, the whole handbasket thing was meant to demonstrate how absurd your own "Sheep and the Finn" joke sounded like. So I had no intentions to make it sound "funny", if you will.

And you shouldn't quit first grade, under any circumstances.

[Stavka]

Oh FFS, here we go nationbashing again...

@PermskiiOMON:
Mate, you post great pictures, and every time you start a thread I look forward to high-quality pics. But it disappoints me that you stoop to the level of 13-year old virgins every time someone nags about russia. **** 'em. Show them by posting information that they are wrong, based on documented facts or personal experience. Make the effort matey :)

@whoever was nagging about RussianTexan:
I've seen no direct unrelevant points made by russtex. Keep up the good work Ivan ;)

As for Russia wandering into Sweden:
Same scenario as I posted in an earlier thread, Swedish defeat on the battlefield army vs army, Russia gets another Chechnya on their hands but at least againt adversarys with a remote semblance of sanity left and a little less Allahu Akhbar.

**** this stupid debating and bring us more of these pics:
http://czeczenia.weblab.pl/800/cz16km.jpg
I move for this image to be awarded some sort of prize, it is absolutely brilliant :D

[Backis]

As for Russia wandering into Sweden:
Same scenario as I posted in an earlier thread, Swedish defeat on the battlefield army vs army, Russia gets another Chechnya on their hands but at least againt adversarys with a remote semblance of sanity left and a little less Allahu Akhbar.


Well, maybe no Islamist stuff, but...

http://www.danielgustafsson.com/upload/store/beelzebub.jpg

rofl

[RomanS]

Oh FFS, here we go nationbashing again...

@PermskiiOMON:
Mate, you post great pictures, and every time you start a thread I look forward to high-quality pics. But it disappoints me that you stoop to the level of 13-year old virgins every time someone nags about russia. f*** 'em. Show them by posting information that they are wrong, based on documented facts or personal experience. Make the effort matey :)

@whoever was nagging about RussianTexan:
I've seen no direct unrelevant points made by russtex. Keep up the good work Ivan ;)

As for Russia wandering into Sweden:
Same scenario as I posted in an earlier thread, Swedish defeat on the battlefield army vs army, Russia gets another Chechnya on their hands but at least againt adversarys with a remote semblance of sanity left and a little less Allahu Akhbar.

f*** this stupid debating and bring us more of these pics:
http://czeczenia.weblab.pl/800/cz16km.jpg
I move for this image to be awarded some sort of prize, it is absolutely brilliant :D

My Swedish friend.

There is only little things I can tolerate and sit quite like a bitch. I warned your country men, and others from that region to quit the bull****.
THEY DIDNT

It is nice to see others FINALLY express their opinion on how stupid it is to have **** swinging contests between us. Untill now, every ****in time I would post photos, there goes your swedish, polish, finish army comparing their **** to ours.

And even though RussianTexan plays a great role of a shield for my country here during the childish bull**** by Mustamato, Marmot, Sorbas atacks, we need someone to play a SWORD role as well.

Thats why I went to grab it.

Now do a search on my name with all the posts I have, and tell me

IN WHICH POST you don't see your sheep ****in countryman atacking our traditions, weapons and miltiary history?

I don't give a **** about Polish or Swedish army. Most of the people here want to see someone worth the military power. Thats why they ask for Russian stuff.

And I'm happy to bring it to them. But since you spoke out now, advice for your future.
YOU WANT PEACE?

control your own people here. Don't advice me on ****.