Germany and poland on Collision course

[marktigger]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/02/15/wger15.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/02/15/ixworld.html

Germans who had their property confiscated in Poland after WW2 are to take their cases to the European court.

[Herrmannek]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/02/15/wger15.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/02/15/ixworld.html

Germans who had their property confiscated in Poland after WW2 are to take their cases to the European court.

Germans can kiss my ass in that matter...

[perdurabo]

if they take that we can take them to court for 26 BILION of $$ war reparations that they had to pay us but they didn't :) and we can take to court russia belarus litva and ukraine for our war loses
stupid f** they should leave history alone

[Herrmannek]

BTW. Poland not poland :)

[mustamato]

"Soon we will all be Europeans. Poland's accession to the EU will enable us to take our case to the Strasbourg court for the first time. Poland must not be allowed to discriminate against Germans."

Ah, so there are not only good things for Poland with joining EU :)

[marktigger]

at least they probably won't invade to sort them this time. ;)

[Collosus]

"Soon we will all be Europeans. Poland's accession to the EU will enable us to take our case to the Strasbourg court for the first time. Poland must not be allowed to discriminate against Germans."

Ah, so there are not only good things for Poland with joining EU
[/quote]

Lets not forget that every stick got two ends.....

[Kitsune]

Another wrongly titled article :roll: . It are SOME Germans, who are on collision course here, not Germany.

I don't think that their case has any chance in any European court...
It just means opening a can of worms, because Germans were also expelled from various other East European countries, who have a similiar attitude as far as this topic is concerned. And there will be no support from the German government, on the contrary.
Besides, in the end there is no chance that the Polish would accept a decision not in their favor.


In the end it is best to let the past rest. Once and for all.

[marktigger]

Its all going to depend what happens.
And History does unfortunatley have a habit of repeating itself because people don't learn the lessons. If there is discrimination it leads to bitterness and if the circumstances happen a nationalistic German govt or a Nationalistic Polish Govt could cause all sorts of problems. If the Strasbourg court finds for the Germans what then?
problems like this need to be addressed unfortunatley you can't draw lines under history as the recent history of Europe shows.

[Kitsune]

This has not much to do with learning their lessons. Their can be no denying the fact, that, on an individual level, what wa done to most of those Germans, was gross injustice. People had taken their homes away, everything they had, just because they were Germans (and other Germans had done gross injustice to Poles). No matter if you were a democrat, had never supported Hitler, never done anything wrong to anyone of even remotely Polish descent...since you were German you had to go...take what you can carry.
That these people want to have back, what belonged to them is understandable, on this individual level. But point is, there is a bigger picture. Polish had their possesions taken away, by Germans or by Russians. As a compensation they got possession from Germans. If now the German got back what was his...what about the Pole? What can he do...demand HIS families goods back from the Russians, who live now in what was once East Poland? And even if he did (improbable)...what about the Russian then?
On an individual level, it is understandable that people want to have what was taken from them by force, but it would mean to open a can of worms. You simply can't give everyone just compensation for what he or his famliy had lost in the worldwar, its simply impossible. (Take as another example those American Indians...what if they would demand their tribes country back? Very probably it was taken from the Indians by white invaders, with force...so in a sense they would be right to demand it back...but what would became out of millions of whites. Simply leave? To where? And make them suffer for what remote ancestors of theirs did? So while the Indians are somehow right about their claims, you simply can't make it right now, make it undone. One sometimes simply has to accept things.)

I don't know about the Polish side (they seem pretty nationalitic to me) but for the German side I can say, that right now there is no party in Germany, who is nationalistic enough, to see this different. No party, who has any chance of getting at least one seat in German parliament, that is. So for the foreseeable future, there will be no government, who will truly support those claims.
And Strassbourg? I don't know wether they have any authority to decide it, and even if, the Polish will only accept a decision in their favor. And there is nothing they can do about that.
So in the end this may indeed pose a problem...but more for the Strassbourg court. (This is a case they will not be very keen to have on their desk...)

All in all, the article, his title, his tone, how it presents the problem, that all seems to me Anti German/Anti European media tendencies at work. Some British newspapers just love stuff like this. "Hey the Germans seem to become Nazis again, probably they start another worldwar about this!"...

But in fact, it just that the war is still on many a Europeans mind. Still there are people, who want to be compensated for what was done to them. Stuff like this will still come up from time to time.

[marktigger]

unfortunatey it is something that may have to be addressed. as they say 2 wrongs don't make a right. As you say at present there isnt a Nationalistic party in Germany. But things change lok at the imigration party in Holland that appeared overnight and got a large number of seats yes it imploded but one in Germany may not. The expansion of Europe is opening a whole can of worms.
And Yes the Telegraph is a highly respected paper that is anti european superstate but so are many people across europe and the more integration is pushed the more chance Nationalist parties will rise and gain support to stop the intigration of their countries in to the USE.

[Kitsune]

Well OK Mark ;)
You are right, these problems have to be adressed. Could well lead to some embarassment, thats true. Probably the German government wishes that a European court does decide for the Polish, that would basically settle the matter for now.

Bye the way...nothing against the Telegraph's opinion. Even I am against a monolithic paneuropean superstate. But I am strongly in favor of a working European Confederation which cooperates in defense and foreign policy.
Anyway, I may have been premature in my condemning of the poor Telegraph. Sorry!

[Tommy Gunn]

Is there not an old saying: Possession is 9/10 of the law?

[Operation Ivy]

Kitsune u think u could go into a little less detail, to much to read! :P ;)

[Skaman]

Germans need their Liebestraum !

[He219]

Germans need their Liebestraum !

"Love-Dream", ducimus?

:lol:

[Skaman]

Germans need their Liebestraum !

"Love-Dream"

:lol:


There we go!

Lebensraum. "Living space" Germany's foreign policy during the Third Reich which was based on expansion...

[Haiw]

rofl
Always fun, watching an English-speakers attempt at German :lol:

[Rantanplan]

Germans need their Liebestraum !

rofl rofl rofl

[Kitsune]

@Ivy:
Some things just need to be said, sry.



(like: "Leo is better than Abrams" for example...hrhr)


@ducimus:
Lovedream, eh? Well, nothing against one of those.... :D


@Haiw:
Haiw wrote:


Always fun, watching an English-speakers attempt at German


Actually, Hollanders, who try to speak German, can be fun, too. (I know, my Grandma is [ah well, was :( ,] one of these).

p-)

[Haiw]

Haha yeah... Blöde Hollander! ;)

Personally I don't have those problems, but yeah, I've heard some funny things in German class too. However, you wouldn't believe how good we were at learning Dutch words to German students at an exchange...

Worst personal mistake: confusing 'Schwuhles wetter' and 'Schwühles wetter' :lol:

[wholagun]

Germans can kiss my ass in that matter...

I don't want one piece of property given back, nor any land given up, NOT even ONE F*CKEN square cm. We got fvcked over too much and lost our land too many times, not more bull****. There is no better to piss off a Pole then to talk about taking his land away.

Its not our fault the boundries shifted we didn't decide the boundries we just took the spoils of war - whatever they were. Germany attacked us, now they want thier stuff back. :bash:

If they take us to European court, we should take them to court for the 26 billon Euros which would mean Germany would be paying us till 2050.

@ Fellow German forumers :What is the general attitude in Germany on this issue? Does general public support this or no? This has to be a touchy issue at least it is for Poles.

[Kitsune]

Well, I wrote something about it. Just read it. I do not want to say more here, lest I anger Ivy...








And, relax wholagun ;)

[wholagun]

And, relax wholagun ;)

I am relaxed, I just don't want to give anything up again. My family comes from that region 20 km from German border so I take it very personally even though my family does not have any farm land.

[Rantanplan]

Q: What is the general attitude in Germany on this issue?

A: Actually nobody cares about this. We have bigger problems than
some senile grandpas who want a greater germany back. Our motto is:
ignore them, they will die soon. (Ok, maybe its just the Westphalian attitude)

Q:Does general public support this or no?

A: Definitely Not. (And thats the attitude of hole germany for sure)

[Kitsune]

And in case you misunderstood this, wholagun:

This is about PRIVATE landowning only. Its about Germans, who had their PRIVATE farm or something taken by Polish. In any case it is NOT aboout the size of Poland or something. Even land owned by a German in Poland stays Polish soil. (Not that it is probable that anyone gets anything back here).

[wholagun]

And in case you misunderstood this, wholagun:

This is about PRIVATE landowning only. Its about Germans, who had their PRIVATE farm or something taken by Polish. In any case it is NOT aboout the size of Poland or something. Even land owned by a German in Poland stays Polish soil. (Not that it is probable that anyone gets anything back here).

I understand fully well the situation, I just don't like the idea of going back on something that should be left in the past. Im sure you'll understand if we (Poles) are abit touchy about this issue

[Operation Ivy]

Well, I wrote something about it. Just read it. I do not want to say more here, lest I anger Ivy...








And, relax wholagun ;)

hehe :D at lest highlight the important parts :P

[marktigger]

Unfortunatley a precident was created over the class action abou the holocaust. How the european court will eal with it is anyones guess.


But I am strongly in favor of a working European Confederation which cooperates in defense and foreign policy.


That is one of the last things i want to see given Europes recent history at dealing with thease things.

Defence and foreign policy are national issues and one size fits all in Europe as is being demonstrated by the Euro. The EU should stick to what it was designed to be a trading group of nation states.

[Sorbas2000]

if they take that we can take them to court for 26 BILION of $$ war reparations that they had to pay us but they didn't :) and we can take to court russia belarus litva and ukraine for our war loses
stupid f** they should leave history alone

Aren't those 26 billion USD already paid back by rubbed german mercedes-benz and BMW...which left germany to poland?

Sorry, I was just joking! :lol:

[Robal2pl]

I live on "Recoverd lands" (Polish lands recovered from German's hands in 1945)...and I agree : Germans started the WW II...Germans were doing nothing to stop Hitler....only few tried to stop him...when they realized that Germany's gonna loose war....

[perdurabo]

if they take that we can take them to court for 26 BILION of $$ war reparations that they had to pay us but they didn't :) and we can take to court russia belarus litva and ukraine for our war loses
stupid f** they should leave history alone

Aren't those 26 billion USD already paid back by rubbed german mercedes-benz and BMW...which left germany to poland?

Sorry, I was just joking! :lol:
:] nono those bmw and mbs are for our art stolen by germans rofl

[wholagun]

come to Poland, your car is already waiting there for you - is a common phrase in Europe :cantbeli: . However, it is important to note that theft of cars is going down.

[radon]

The red area taken away from Germany after WW1. edit: If I remember all of that did not really happen?

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/deutsches_reich_1919+.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/5/54/De-map.png

But how german were those territories? Those maps make it look like the poles had not much to do in once east-Germany after ww2...

My personal view on this ( if i have one , I dont live in any of those countries) :Is that everybody should forget it. There are poles living there now.

[tony6]

However, it is important to note that theft of cars is going down.
Especially that CEPiK is on the way! :D
(CEPiK-Centralna Ewidencja Pojazdow i Kierowocow)-central evidency of vehicles and drivers, police computer data-base which will help with the problem of car thefts.

[tony6]

radon:
Dude-it wasn't Poles who decide to get those territories to Poland!
Ask mr. Stalin if You want details.

[martinexsquaddie]

i thought most of the stolem cars ended up in kosovo

[Schwabo Elite]

@ Fellow German forumers :What is the general attitude in Germany on this issue? Does general public support this or no? This has to be a touchy issue at least it is for Poles.

Simple:
Justice must be done for any cost, but one. This one price I am not willing to pay is hurting others and possibly endanger our common future. After the ex-WP states threw of the communist yoke we should do everything to heal old wounds. This includes possible arrangements about "stolen" property and the like. However especially Germany and Poland have serious matters to discuss. We are not speaking about giving back territory to Germany, but to owners (if they still live). In the Eu I can move freely and live wherever I want, so it doesn't matter if the "disowned farm" (or whatever) is on Polish territory or not. We just leave things as they are, the boders are fix, Germany signed a treaty and democratic germany is used to pacta sunt servanda. It would be nice however if Germans from the former German provinces of Slesia (Schlesien) could move back and live on their former ground. Providing no new owners are living there. Another idea could be that, in case of a ground to be sold, former German owners would be notified and get the possibility of a first buy option. Within the normal amount of cost of course, to ensure no harm is done to local Polish farmers...

SE