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CyberSpec
12-20-2005, 10:22 PM
Surprise! The Soviets Nearly Won Afghan War (c) Los Angeles Times

By Mark Kramer, Mark Kramer is director of the Harvard Cold War studies program and a senior fellow at the university's Davis Center for Russian and Eurasian studies. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Twenty-five years ago, on Christmas Eve, Soviet troops marched into Afghanistan with the aim of restoring order in a few months. Nine years later they withdrew amid continued violence. In their wake, civil war erupted and the Taliban rose to power, providing a haven to Al Qaeda.

Critics of the U.S. military effort in Iraq often cite the Soviet experience in Afghanistan as evidence that using foreign troops to put down an insurgency is bound to fail. But that "lesson" is misleading because it depends on a depiction of the Soviet-Afghan war that is downright inaccurate.

When Soviet forces invaded Afghanistan, they initially failed to protect their logistical and communications lines. But Soviet commanders quickly corrected these mistakes and brought in better troops, including helicopter pilots trained for mountain warfare. From mid-1980 on, the Afghan guerrillas never seized any major Soviet facilities or prevented major troop deployments and movements.

When Soviet generals shifted, in mid-1983, to a counterinsurgency strategy of scorched-earth tactics and the use of heavily armed special operations forces, their progress against the guerrillas accelerated. Over the next few years, the Soviets increased their control of Afghanistan, inflicting many casualties — guerrilla and civilian. Had it not been for the immense support — weapons, training, materials — provided to the Afghan guerrillas by the United States, Saudi Arabia, China and Pakistan, Soviet troops would have achieved outright victory.

Even with all the outside military assistance, Afghan guerrillas were often helpless when facing the Soviet military machine. Raids conducted by Soviet airborne and helicopter forces were especially effective. In late 1985 and 1986, guerrilla units sustained heavy losses in the Kunar Valley and Paktia province and retreated from large swaths of strategic territory. The previously ineffective army of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul provided valuable support, launching fierce artillery barrages and huge armored assaults.

In a long study of Soviet military progress as of mid-1987, a leading Westren military expert concluded that Soviet forces were proving "devastatingly effective against the Afghan resistance," were "presently winning in Afghanistan" and were "very close to crushing the resistance." The announcement in 1988 by then-Soviet President Mikhail S. Gorbachev that forces would be withdrawn from Afghanistan within a year was a political and diplomatic decision, not a military one.

The "bleeding wound" that Gorbachev described was not primarily Russian but Afghan. During the nine years of fighting, more than 2.5 million Afghans (mostly civilians) were killed or maimed; millions more were displaced or forced into exile. By contrast, 14,453 Soviet troops were killed, an average of 1,600 a year. This was not a trivial number, but certainly sustainable for the Soviet army, which numbered more than 4 million.

When the last Soviet troops left Afghanistan in February 1989, the situation on the ground was relatively favorable to Moscow, in part because the Soviet air force conducted sustained bombing raids to cover the withdrawal. Aided by huge inflows of Soviet weaponry, Kabul's staunchly pro-Soviet regime led by President Najibullah remained in power for the next three years. The regime's durability represented a notable success for the Soviet war effort. Only after the Soviet Union collapsed and the new Russian government cut off military aid to Afghanistan did Najibullah fall.

What relevance does the Soviet-Afghan war have for U.S. military operations in Iraq? Very little. Soviet troops did not invade and occupy Afghanistan to oust a brutal dictator or promote democratic elections. They simply aimed to install a friendly communist regime in Kabul. The number of Soviet troops never exceeded 120,000 at any time, but they eventually laid waste to the entire country. A dearth of training and equipment hampered the Soviet war effort. By contrast, U.S. soldiers in Iraq are much better trained, equipped and motivated than their Soviet counterparts were in Afghanistan.

The Soviet-Afghan war's main relevance to the U.S. campaign in Iraq is operational. The Soviet experience underscored the crucial importance of intelligence in fighting an insurgency, an advantage the U.S. continues to lack in Iraq. It also highlighted the enormous potential of attack and transport helicopters that can strike deep in enemy territory, and it reaffirmed the value of small, flexible units of heavily armed special operations forces that are capable of carrying out rapid strikes. Most important, the Soviet war demonstrated that the Afghan guerrillas were not invincible and that well-designed counterinsurgency operations can inflict grave damage on, and spread turmoil among, the enemy.

Looking back 25 years later, many observers have been tempted to assume that the Soviet military effort in Afghanistan was hopeless from the start. That's a distortion. An accurate appraisal of the Soviet military experience in Afghanistan is essential if we are to avoid drawing spurious lessons for current U.S. policy in Iraq.

CG51
12-21-2005, 02:30 AM
interesting...

ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð
12-21-2005, 02:43 AM
Repost, I remeber this article caused a ****storm last time.

CyberSpec
12-21-2005, 05:00 AM
Repost, I remeber this article caused a ****storm last time.
I didn't know it was already posted.

Anyway, it's an rare and interesting point of view coming from a western analyst.

a_very_ex_STAB
12-21-2005, 07:33 AM
It's not that unusual for the side that wins most of the battles to either lose (or fail to win) the war

Kitsune
12-21-2005, 01:56 PM
One question is left unanswered by this guy. How does he think would the Soviets have kept up the control of Afghanistan? After three to four years the number of the insurgents would have been replenished again to quite some degree. And the will to resist was unbroken. One has to give it to them: Afghans are tough nuts, with them the claim of many muslims "I am not afraid to die" is often no idle boast. The difficulties the Soviets faced may have subsided for a time. But only for a time.

Jani.R
12-21-2005, 02:05 PM
And americans almost won in Vietnam, but they did not.

JoaMei
12-21-2005, 03:00 PM
And americans almost won in Vietnam, but they did not.

Yes, and germany almost won two worldwars.

I'mOnlyHalfPolish
12-21-2005, 04:23 PM
hhhmmm very interesting read...did anyone catch the program on the History Channel the other night when they had some former CIA agents who had worked with the afghan mujahadeen? It was pretty good, and even that program said that the soviets were actually maybe not "winning" the war but had the upper hand throughtout most of the conflict until the CIA had trained/supplied the afghans better.

They had said that the afghans were the ones that would turn and leave a fight to live another day. And that the influx of arab fighters were the ones who were death wish to the max staying and dying in the open. The CIA had nothing to do with arab resistance (according to program) the arabs were mainly supplied thru the middle east and iran which was then funneled thru pakistan etc...but the CIA guys made sure to state several times that they had nothing to do with arab fighters/obl.

They said the war changed when they had introduced long range mortars to the afghani's b/c they were able to reach out and attack soviet high security bases. And of course the intro of the stinger missile's to keep the soviet air supremecy at bay.

Thoughts/comments anyone to back up or refute?

CyberSpec
12-21-2005, 06:49 PM
One question is left unanswered by this guy. How does he think would the Soviets have kept up the control of Afghanistan? After three to four years the number of the insurgents would have been replenished again to quite some degree. And the will to resist was unbroken. One has to give it to them: Afghans are tough nuts, with them the claim of many muslims "I am not afraid to die" is often no idle boast. The difficulties the Soviets faced may have subsided for a time. But only for a time.

It depends on how high a price the invading force is prepared to pay (in blood and money).

The Soviets would never have succeded to completely pacify the country because the muja's could always retreat into Pakistan and continue the fight, but the resistance could have been reduced to a "tolerable" level.

The only reason you are assuming that these sort of wars (religiously motivated guerilla/partizan wars) can't be won, because you're assuming that modern "Politically Correct" methods have to be observed.

There are historical examples on how to deal with this sort of problem. Take for example Alexander the Greats campaigns, who also fought in the region or an even better example would be the Romans:

1. You try and force a conventional battle whenever possible on your terms and you make sure the enemy is completely devastated, even if it means chasing them across borders.

2. Rebells and rebel regions are dealt with ruthlessly (scorched earth policy), in other words, making the price of rebellion unbearable

3. You win over the local rulling elite to your side and then start working on the young generation as whole, through education and offering them better future prospects.

4. You build garisson towns at strategic locations all over the country and bring your own settlers to populate them.

Lokos
12-21-2005, 11:32 PM
A more pertinent example is Russia's own 'pacification' of the Caucaus region in the 19th century.

Lokos

CyberSpec
12-22-2005, 01:51 AM
A more pertinent example is Russia's own 'pacification' of the Caucaus region in the 19th century.

Lokos

I don't really know the details of the Caucaus campaigns of the 19th century to make any worthwhile comparisons...care to give some info?

Lazarou
12-22-2005, 03:37 AM
Wars are not "nearly won", they're either won or lost. The Soviets surely would've won the war if they had had enough time and will, but that's not what happened. They threw in the towel - end of story.

Interesting article, however.

CyberSpec
12-22-2005, 04:42 AM
Fair enough, that's why it's posted in the History section.:)

That doesn't mean we can't discuss why it happened or various hypothetical scenarios.

Kitsune
12-22-2005, 11:13 AM
@CyberSpec and Lokos:

An even more recent example is the crushing of the Baltic resistance between the end of WWII and the mid fifties. (In any case, I would be careful to compare anti-resistance fights from the 19th century to todays "low intensity warfare" - something seems to have changed since then...)
But the Baltic states were surrounded by Soviet territory and cut off from any support. Afghanistan was not, it is, as CyberSpec said, possible to cross over to Pakistan were Pashtun Afghans find ample support. Also, the method of building forts and outposts to "control the country" is ESPECIALLY difficult in Afghanistan. Consider its infrastructure (or lack thereof) and the geography. A nightmare for anyone who wants to control it.

These are valid reasons to believe that Afghanistan could not have been "won": the amount of energy needed to keep it under wraps would have been simply to great to make it worthwile. In the end, the Soviet leadership and people would have simply had enough of it and the army would have been withdrawn...and I think that has nothing to do with who was in charge in the Sovietunion at the time and how competent this guy was. Even if a clever guy like Putin would have been in charge: the Soviets would have left and called it even in the end. Or better: would not have gone there in the first place.

And that is even a somewhat hypothetical Sovietunion, I am speaking of. A country that is somehwat separated from the stream of history. But in fact, the Soviet state was going down from the mid eighties on. Even a few years after they had to withdraw from Afghanistan, they could not even keep up control over the whole Sovietunion: especially in the South lots of territories were lost: Usbekistan, Tadjikistan, Kasachstan asf...

So, I dare say the statement: "The Sovietunion would have won the war in Afghanistan" is plainly wrong.

chauncy republicans
12-22-2005, 07:41 PM
The idea that the Soviet Union would've succeeded in establishing a permanant, pro-Soviet, and athiest regime to rule over the xenophobic, and strongly conservative Islamic Pashtun majority of Afghanistan is absolutely rediculous.

CyberSpec
12-23-2005, 01:57 AM
Kitsune,

I agree, the SU did not have the economic strength to keep fighting a decades long war in Afghanistan.


chauncy republicans,

I did say that to win in the long run, you have to influence the young generation and move them in a different direction from their "xenophobic" parents, otherwise you'll either end up with a war that can last for centuries.

NicNZ
12-25-2005, 07:05 PM
There are historical examples on how to deal with this sort of problem. Take for example Alexander the Greats campaigns, who also fought in the region or an even better example would be the Romans
I have to disagree with you. Both those examples, Alexander and the Romans, demonstrate that it is possible to suppress the problem temporarily. Witness the fact that within a short time of Alexander's death and/or departure from the region, his hard-won empire crumbled and fell back into local hands. Equally so for the Romans but in a more politically-complicated fashion.

CyberSpec
12-26-2005, 07:31 AM
I have to disagree with you. Both those examples, Alexander and the Romans, demonstrate that it is possible to suppress the problem temporarily. Witness the fact that within a short time of Alexander's death and/or departure from the region, his hard-won empire crumbled and fell back into local hands. Equally so for the Romans but in a more politically-complicated fashion.
Well, yes and no...actually most of Alexander's empire was divided among his leading generals, who ruled those provinces for several more generations. So I wouldn't say they fell back into local hands straight away. And some of them were taken over by the Romans and never really went back into their original condition.

As for the Romans, even though they eventually lost their empire, they left their mark for good. None of the provinces were ever the same again and even their successors kept the Roman titles (Charlemagne, the Byzantine emperors. Or in more recent times, Kaiser, Tsar = Ceaser)

tuercas
12-26-2005, 03:15 PM
i also saw a documentary on history channel. it was an episode of "fields of armor". several experts where interviewed and the consesus was that the withdrawal was for political reasons. the soviets wanted to maintain the illusion that they where in afghanistan as assistance not a full blown invasion so they could not commit a large force.

nagant_m44
12-26-2005, 04:40 PM
hhhmmm very interesting read...did anyone catch the program on the History Channel the other night when they had some former CIA agents who had worked with the afghan mujahadeen? It was pretty good, and even that program said that the soviets were actually maybe not "winning" the war but had the upper hand throughtout most of the conflict until the CIA had trained/supplied the afghans better.

They had said that the afghans were the ones that would turn and leave a fight to live another day. And that the influx of arab fighters were the ones who were death wish to the max staying and dying in the open. The CIA had nothing to do with arab resistance (according to program) the arabs were mainly supplied thru the middle east and iran which was then funneled thru pakistan etc...but the CIA guys made sure to state several times that they had nothing to do with arab fighters/obl.

They said the war changed when they had introduced long range mortars to the afghani's b/c they were able to reach out and attack soviet high security bases. And of course the intro of the stinger missile's to keep the soviet air supremecy at bay.

Thoughts/comments anyone to back up or refute?

that, as are a lot of things on the history channel, is BS