German Snipers [Archive] - Military Photos

goldman

12-21-2005, 09:06 PM

http://img2.uploadimages.net/102071gm_sn14.jpg
http://img2.uploadimages.net/389425gm_sn02.jpg
http://img2.uploadimages.net/025307g22_11.jpg
http://img2.uploadimages.net/319196gm_sn03.jpg
http://img2.uploadimages.net/928282gm_sn04.jpg
http://img2.uploadimages.net/889384gm_sn05.jpg
http://img2.uploadimages.net/753191gm_sn07.jpg
http://img2.uploadimages.net/861646gm_sn11.jpg
http://img2.uploadimages.net/727580gm_sn12.jpg
http://img2.uploadimages.net/521332gm_sn07.jpg
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4468/gmsn135jo.jpg
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/8399/gmsn093yp.jpg
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/2165/gmsn089jl.jpg
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/5938/gmsn066of.jpg

Feel free to post more

davis411

12-21-2005, 09:10 PM

Those are some sick photos!!!

towelie

12-21-2005, 09:11 PM

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61508

there are some more in that thread. Nice pics btw.

Macs.

12-21-2005, 09:21 PM

Enjoy. :)

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/1.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/2.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/3.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/4.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/5.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/6.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/7.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/8.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/9.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/10.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/11.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/12.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/13.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/14.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/15.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/16.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/17.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/18.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/19.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/20.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/21.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/22.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/23.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/24.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/25.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/26.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/27.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/28.jpg

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/29.jpg

MBG

12-21-2005, 09:24 PM

Excellent pics guys, Macs the 7th and the 8th from the bottom are very nice

Groove

12-21-2005, 09:30 PM

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/4.jpg

which weapon is this ?

towelie

12-21-2005, 09:35 PM

could be a g22, maybe?

towelie

12-21-2005, 09:43 PM

http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/2120/afg28oh8yd8li.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/8561/bild4527dg.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/6629/bild4776vd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/763/canada38ac.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/5168/g22gesamt22eq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/5757/lf201000016gn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/6614/ma12gt.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/3609/sarajevo16ec.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/8335/sarajevo26nd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/7546/g3zf7fu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/1073/garg3zf0sj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

towelie

12-21-2005, 10:02 PM

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/7625/berlinholocaustmemorial014ms0q.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/350/berlinholocaustmemorial026oh7b.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/4876/berlinholocaustmemorial039ph4u.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/10/germansniper04l2be2sq.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/7283/germansniper05l9jt8yd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/8598/idz1160mh6cb.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/2462/afgh7pm3pi.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/4338/ksk476ib.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

larryzou

12-21-2005, 10:26 PM

Excellent pics,thinks guys.

towelie

12-21-2005, 10:37 PM

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2268/01020339434009qm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/1165/156c5e4d3df.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/5449/655adc2e5ey.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/7508/917e22cc1ew.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/5439/cimg08921ns.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/7725/coesfeld14jm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2540/coesfeld21gi.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/383/daaden5nl.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/2666/ded8fa717mz.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/3162/e0d58ac66oh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

towelie

12-21-2005, 10:40 PM

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/4204/g224ci.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6465/grafenwohr199715mb.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/4019/grafenwohr199727gd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5874/hkg3a41dh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5843/ksk0009nb.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/7310/madfeld95rs.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/219/psg1277xi.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6472/scharfschutzeblickaufprizren01.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/549/scharfschutzen15pt.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/4653/scharfschutzen28oo.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6990/snipers3cw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/2421/todendor3zy.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/8053/wasssniper6cx.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

VaLiancY

12-21-2005, 10:48 PM

Everytime you post an awesome picture in low-res, A kitten dies. :(

Great pictures. ;-)

Pille1234

12-21-2005, 10:58 PM

http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/9159/scharfschtzensfor19975vo.jpg

http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/8356/53242496.jpg

http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/6793/53242490.jpg

http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/2234/23230581.jpg

enzo100

12-21-2005, 11:17 PM

AWSOME! Good stuff everyone :D

bigjeff

12-22-2005, 01:22 AM

They loook awesome!

Heinzi

12-22-2005, 02:37 AM

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/1165/156c5e4d3df.jpg
Wow :D

Thanks for the pics guys.

Killtokk

12-22-2005, 05:04 AM

Excellent pics,thinks guys.

x 2 .. great

megusen

12-22-2005, 05:35 AM

Great pics. Thanks alot.
Keep on posting

percell_086

12-22-2005, 07:03 AM

Nice pics mates! Keep 'em coming!

Percell

D.Ranger

12-22-2005, 07:40 AM

fooking awesome pics.. some of that cammo is just sick...

Hows this...

http://www.sproe.com/images/screenshots/german-sniper-01-large.jpg

Sorry.. couldn't resist...p-)

Selekcja

12-22-2005, 08:15 AM

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/3346/annaeherung12nr.jpg
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/9034/annaeherung25me.jpg
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/7081/beobachten18ae.jpg
http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/3646/scharfschuetze1768x54110547938.jpg

socom6

12-22-2005, 08:38 AM

Wow awesome pics of modern German snipers proudly carrying on the tradition set by their Grandfathers and Great Grandfathers.

German snipers = Deadly

JoeBlack23

12-22-2005, 11:03 AM

Did the german snipers in a-stan already "shoot to kill" ????

caleb

12-22-2005, 11:06 AM

Did the german snipers in a-stan already "shoot to kill" ????

lol, god knows. No wait, not even that is for sure . ;)

seventy6er

12-22-2005, 11:09 AM

I don't think so. Maybe KSK snipers did, but not our regular ISAF-snipers

Shadow

12-22-2005, 11:47 AM

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4468/gmsn135jo.jpg

Don't mix them up with these guys:

http://www.infuzemag.com/gallery/albums/Star-Wars-Celebration-III/sandpeople.jpg

pelao

12-22-2005, 12:38 PM

[quote=Heinzi]http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/1165/156c5e4d3df.jpg

What the hell is that??? Looks like Terminator.

Very, Very great pics. Thanks man.

FozzieBear

12-22-2005, 12:45 PM

its a thermal sight.

kk111

12-22-2005, 01:21 PM

wow modern technology, it is so compact.

Lamer

12-22-2005, 01:55 PM

[quote=Heinzi]http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/1165/156c5e4d3df.jpg

rofl gun bling-bling (they shuld have put on some laser stuff and a tac light- than it would be complete)
note that this gun has 3 optical devicesrofl

otherwise great sniper pics (german tradition is carried on like it shuld)

Katana-sr

12-22-2005, 02:20 PM

I never used that thing (is it the new thermal scope?) on a G36, but I tried out a 1st generation night sight on a G3 a while ago. If the size of the scope is any indicator for the weight, that thing must be friggen heavy. Probably close to the weight of the MG3 with that AG36 attached...

Heinzi

12-22-2005, 02:23 PM

A friend if mine used the G36 with the big night vision thingie. I recall that he found it a bird hard and clumsy to use.

Pretty obvious I think :D

Eldar

12-22-2005, 03:07 PM

wow! cool pics!!

Far

12-22-2005, 04:28 PM

what a thread...thanks!

He219

12-23-2005, 01:12 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/newest/501784ee.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/newest/4320e893.jpg
http://cache.*****images.com/comp/54485897.jpg?x=x&dasite=*****Images&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D0502010942195534B1B9E10FCFBBA83D8EFA110E5BEAC9EDBE4E6F952F6
http://cache.*****images.com/comp/50783009.jpg?x=x&dasite=*****Images&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=576A9F914F37665C08D2BD2B343EE9D4781CF461BB6606AD
http://cache.*****images.com/comp/1680125.jpg?x=x&dasite=*****Images&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D05020109421D54DAF19B3F57617E420FE56C8A8DA7D
http://cache.*****images.com/comp/51819469.jpg?x=x&dasite=*****Images&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=17885A532050AC6E1E35B871E010D956781CF461BB6606AD
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/He219/480662a2.jpg
http://cache.*****images.com/comp/56033614.jpg?x=x&dasite=*****Images&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D0502010942195534B1B9E10FCFBB03F40806BFD5EABAC9EDBE4E6F952F6
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/He219/0ae08c42.jpg

Ein Beamter eines Sondereinsatzkommandos steht am Donnerstag, 28.Juli 2005 waehrend eines Bankueberfalls mit Geiselnahme in Hamburg in Position. (AP Photo/Fabian Bimmer)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/He219/302d2d65.jpg

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/52671588.jpg?x=x&dasite=*****Images&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D0502010942195534B1B9E10FCFBE5B488692B0EA164AC9EDBE4E6F952F6
http://cache.*****images.com/comp/52662613.jpg?x=x&dasite=*****Images&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D0502010942195534B1B9E10FCFBDE44614F5743BC76AC9EDBE4E6F952F6
http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/Assets/2003/Air_Force/DF-SD-03-04393.JPG

Close up of Staff Sergeant (SSGT), Perry, USA, as he sights through the scope atop a GERMAN G-22 High Power SNIPER Rifle, during a small arms training course held at Mubarak Military City in Egypt during Exercise BRIGHT STAR 01/02.
http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/Assets/2003/Air_Force/DF-SD-03-04392.JPG
Hi-Res (http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/Assets/2003/Air_Force/DF-SD-03-04392.JPEG)

Irish

12-23-2005, 01:28 PM

[quote=pelao]
rofl gun bling-bling (they shuld have put on some laser stuff and a tac light- than it would be complete)
note that this gun has 3 optical devicesrofl

otherwise great sniper pics (german tradition is carried on like it shuld)

i'd say the weight is great too!!.his arms would be pulled off him going on an op.

seventy6er

12-23-2005, 02:55 PM

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/51819469.jpg?x=x&dasite=*****Images&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=17885A532050AC6E1E35B871E010D956781CF461BB6606AD

What kind of helmet is this? Never seen one like this before in German service.

Eldar

12-23-2005, 03:17 PM

is the kind of helmet serving in GSG9??

toni-sf

12-23-2005, 03:23 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/He219/0ae08c42.jpg

A german with an American BDU and a marpat vest? wtf?

JoaMei

12-23-2005, 03:25 PM

A german with an American BDU and a marpat vest? wtf?

Its Police SEK, they buy their own camo stuff individually. But they shouldnt be allowed to. p-)

seventy6er

12-23-2005, 03:44 PM

is the kind of helmet serving in GSG9??

Looks more like a Russian helmet to me

rzuk

12-23-2005, 04:54 PM

Awesome pics!!

Thanks for sharing

Shadow

12-23-2005, 05:24 PM

A german with an American BDU and a marpat vest? wtf?

Plus he's a police sniper....odd.

TacoDelRio

12-23-2005, 06:12 PM

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/27.jpg

HK21E w/Mag adaptor kit?

towelie

12-23-2005, 07:28 PM

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/4920/bild169km.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/8666/kampfs0166rn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/5383/kampfs0196vk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/4927/ksk0432hi.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/615/kampfs0168ou.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/4599/scharfschtz4205ap.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/8864/schuetze4202lg.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/9140/sek028xd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/551/sek107dc.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

couldnt find any of those in high res.

Where do you all find your pictures? I checked on sondereinheiten and found a couple of those, for some of the other ones I googled and found a site that had 10 of the pictures, I checked hkpro.com and finally I found some on here.

Ericsson

12-23-2005, 10:18 PM

the German Police snipers are just the second to none ...
Great pictures!!! the best in a long time...

Merry X-mas Everybody..

ABNINF

12-24-2005, 12:04 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/He219/480662a2.jpg
http://cache.*****images.com/comp/56033614.jpg?x=x&dasite=*****Images&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D0502010942195534B1B9E10FCFBB03F40806BFD5EABAC9EDBE4E6F952F6

What kind of rifle is that? It looks sweet. It's not that new bullpup that Israel came out with a couple years ago is it?

VaLiancY

12-24-2005, 12:11 AM

A DSR-1 I think

variable

12-24-2005, 06:27 AM

Its Police SEK, they buy their own camo stuff individually. But they shouldnt be allowed to. p-)

It's actually a MEK operator for Hamburg has no SEK.

Plus he's a police sniper....odd.

They don't use high power scopes for precision shooting but usually for perimiter work and spotting.

Ben

JoaMei

12-24-2005, 06:32 AM

D.U.C.K.S.

05-09-2007, 01:57 PM

[quote=Heinzi]http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/1165/156c5e4d3df.jpg

What the hell is that??? Looks like Terminator.

Very, Very great pics. Thanks man.
The big thing is AN/PAS-13 thermal weapon sight.
The small thing on the guy's head is Thales OB70 LUCIE night vision goggles.

tomcat1974

05-09-2007, 04:05 PM

The big thing is AN/PAS-13 thermal weapon sight.
The small thing on the guy's head is Thales OB70 LUCIE night vision goggles.

yes ... check the performances for the heavy version... for a thermal detector with that range ... it is small.
http://www.raytheon.com/products/stellent/groups/public/documents/content/cms01_052720.pdf

Target_Aquired

05-09-2007, 04:19 PM

http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/2234/23230581.jpg[/QUOTE]

Isnt the first rule of sniping not to expose your barrel!

HK in AK

05-14-2007, 03:38 AM

http://www.schlimme-menschen.de/Macs/Sniper/27.jpg

HK21E w/Mag adaptor kit?

Yep. You are correct. Only squad belt-fed rifle that can be converted over to a quasi sniper rifle. It isn't as accurate as other guns, but it is pretty accurate.

ooo

05-14-2007, 07:56 AM

Yep. You are correct. Only squad belt-fed rifle that can be converted over to a quasi sniper rifle. It isn't as accurate as other guns, but it is pretty accurate.
Well, say Designated Marksman Rifle, yeah? Sounds better than "quasi sniper rifle" ..

p-)

fish&chips

05-14-2007, 10:14 AM

Is the G3 ZF still in use with Bundeswehr units today?

muck

05-14-2007, 11:01 AM

Is the G3 ZF still in use with Bundeswehr units today?

I think so. At first, the G3ZF is nothing more than a standart issued G3A3 with an attached scope what should be easily to contrive with every present G3, and additionally, there were quite many complaints about the inadequate use of the G36 as a "quasi"-DMR during abroad deployments.

http://img3.myimg.de/gisaf3185.jpg

If I am not completely wrong, the guy on the right carries a G3ZF.

dachrinne

05-14-2007, 11:25 AM

but looks a little bit larger than the original scope :)

muck

05-14-2007, 11:30 AM

Yeah I noticed that. Could either be a thermal sight, or, and that is much more probable, an improvised dust cover. Many German soldiers in Afghanistan use self made covers for their scope since there are no regularly issued ones, at least as far as I know.

fish&chips

05-14-2007, 01:14 PM

I think so. At first, the G3ZF is nothing more than a standart issued G3A3 with an attached scope what should be easily to contrive with every present G3, and additionally, there were quite many complaints about the inadequate use of the G36 as a "quasi"-DMR during abroad deployments.

Yes, I was thinking along those lines. Moreover, since the M14 is experiencing such a renaissance in the US Army for marksmen, I thought the G3 would see similar use with the BW abroad.

muck

05-14-2007, 02:29 PM

Yes, I was thinking along those lines. Moreover, since the M14 is experiencing such a renaissance in the US Army for marksmen, I thought the G3 would see similar use with the BW abroad.
It does, but only in limited numbers since the Armed Forces have extensively minimized the amout of G3s in their inventory. Not every unit disposes of G3s anymore.

fish&chips

05-14-2007, 02:32 PM

I see, thanks for the info.

TacoDelRio

05-14-2007, 03:08 PM

Yep. You are correct. Only squad belt-fed rifle that can be converted over to a quasi sniper rifle. It isn't as accurate as other guns, but it is pretty accurate.

Hmmm seeing as you have a few, perhaps you could send one for testing... p-)

D.U.C.K.S.

05-14-2007, 04:52 PM

NLD

05-14-2007, 05:32 PM

This topic makes my day good.
I like the first (desert) sniper pictures.

Maglan

05-14-2007, 07:28 PM

TacoDelRio

05-14-2007, 07:39 PM

Perhaps that unit didn't recieve any, or they deemed that the PSG-1 was not a good choice for whatever their job was that day/week/rotation, or something? Can't base alot off a picture.

baker

05-15-2007, 04:06 AM

another g3

http://freenet-homepage.de/graf.von.zahl/ma5.JPG

http://freenet-homepage.de/graf.von.zahl/ma1.JPG

muck

05-15-2007, 07:06 AM

ive seen all kinds of stuff up here.....m40s, g36s, barretts, even a damn hk21 used for sniping?

anyway ive only seen a couple psg1 and no msg 90.....what gives?

why would hk develop the best semi auto sniper rifle the world has seen (often more accurate than some bolt action rifles) and germany not use it? germans often have a way of not making sense to me though.

Simple explanation: the MSG90 might be a Sniper Rifle fitting into military use, but the PSG-1 is not since it was clearly developed for the GSG9, thus for police snipers, and is due to the scope limited to a range of 600m. It's sure a very accurate and reliable weapon, but definitely no mulit-purpose gear and is said to be susceptible for more serious conditions like sandy environment et cetera. That's at least what I was told.
Nonetheless nearly every German Police SEK (as well as several units abroad) has adopted the weapon, that's for HK better than nothing in my opinion.

quinsen

05-15-2007, 05:26 PM

[...] At first, the G3ZF is nothing more than a standart issued G3A3 with an attached scope what should be easily to contrive with every present G3, and additionally, there were quite many complaints about the inadequate use of the G36 as a "quasi"-DMR during abroad deployments.

The G3ZF have the standard barrels, but that are specially outsortet ones of a higher quality. ;)

SomeGeek

05-15-2007, 10:25 PM

Wow awesome pics of modern German snipers proudly carrying on the tradition set by their Grandfathers and Great Grandfathers.

German snipers = Deadly

Or not. I'd be impressed if they were shooting at something that can actually shoot back. You can't kill a paper target.

Robbee

05-15-2007, 10:40 PM

12-22-2005
Wow awesome pics of modern German snipers proudly carrying on the tradition set by their Grandfathers and Great Grandfathers.

German snipers = Deadly

Or not. I'd be impressed if they were shooting at something that can actually shoot back. You can't kill a paper target.

In the immortal words of Bruce Lee " Very good, but brick don't fight back"
Thanks for your expert opinion.

Trying to continue a conversation from 2005?