Soviets' lost boys in Afghanistan

[aFgHaNibOi]

Soviets' lost boys in Afghanistan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3490949.stm)

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39862000/jpg/_39862947_picnic203b.jpg
Their comrades went home in 1989

Army veterans in the countries that made up the Soviet bloc marked the 15th anniversary on Sunday of the withdrawal of the last of their troops from Afghanistan.

But, as Russian television has reported from Kunduz, there are actually still some Soviet soldiers left there.

The fighting in Afghanistan had been going on for some four years when 18-year-old Gennady Tsevma from the Ukraine went into the Soviet army.

His brother, Sergey, then 11, remembered that the whole street turned out to see Gennady off.

But then came two letters from Afghanistan.

The first accused Gennady of being a traitor. The second said he was absent without leave.

"I always hoped that my brother was alive," Sergey said. "I wanted to go and find him when I became a soldier."

But the end of involvement in the "Soviet Vietnam" put an end to this dream, until now.

Home thoughts

In the northern Afghan town of Kunduz, "Nikmamat" earns his living as a driver, earning $180 a month to feed and clothe his wife and three children

"I have grown old," Nikmamat, as Gennady is now called said. "Look, I'm 38 years old now. I'm like an old man. I miss my homeland."

He did not desert from the army, he told Russian television. He fell asleep at his post and was captured by mujahideen.

"They said to me: If you want to be a Muslim, accept this faith. If you don't, we'll kill you."

The mujahideen forced Gennady to fight for them. " But I didn't shoot at all", he said.

Still he feared returning home to face a possible court-martial.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39862000/jpg/_39862951_akhmat203b.jpg
No dreams of returning to Ukraine

More than 20 years after he left home, Gennady telephoned his brother.

" Hi, Sergey. I'll definitely come," he promised, "don't worry. Just wait, OK?"

Also living in Kunduz is Akhmat. Born Aleksandr Levenets in Ukraine, he deserted from his sapper battalion to escape abuse from his officers.

Like Gennady, he joined the mujahideen.

But unlike him, no-one waits in the Ukraine for Aleksandr. The last of his family died long ago.

In Afghanistan he has a wife and two daughters.

"To be honest, I don't want to go back", he confided. "Now I feel like an Afghan."

He's an Afghan now. ;)

[ArmedPacifist]

I wonder how their children are/will be treated.

[UkrainianAmerican]

:cantbeli:

[George W. Bush]

Nice BS story.

[anonymous individual]

I guess we all have a little bite of afghan in us. ;)

[aFgHaNibOi]

I wonder how their children are/will be treated.

Well, I would think that he got himself an Afghan lady, so...his children are technically Afghan. No worries man. ;)

[aFgHaNibOi]

Nice BS story.

How is it a BS story? :|

[aFgHaNibOi]

I guess we all have a little bite of afghan in us. ;)

rofl I guess so. ;)

[serbian boy]

Obviuosly the man had a heartfelt duty to his homeland! :D
****ing Traitor!! :fork:

[Kingpin]

Technically he is traitor.

But let's not bash each other in this case. I'd like to restore our good relationships with Afganistan as we had before 1979. For me this thing have much more importance than one poor guy.

[Jack Mehoff]

I wonder if ducimus is going to defend that deserter

[Tommy Gunn]

This guy is a POS.

1.) He fell asleep at his post, exposing his comrades to surprise attack.

2.) He betrayed his country.

[aFgHaNibOi]

Guys it wasn't just him, it was lots of people like him. And maybe he had his reasons, so please refrain from insulting him. :petting:

[juhae]

Guys it wasn't just him, it was lots of people like him. And maybe he had his reasons, so please refrain from insulting him. :petting:

It's always easy to judge, if you don't have the same personal experience as the person behind the story.

[aFgHaNibOi]

Guys it wasn't just him, it was lots of people like him. And maybe he had his reasons, so please refrain from insulting him. :petting:

It's always easy to judge, if you don't have the same personal experience as the person behind the story.

Very true. :hug:

[Jack Mehoff]

Sleeping while on guard duty is some of the worst thing you can do. I will cut off one of my finger to keep me awake if I have to.

[Jack Mehoff]

Guys it wasn't just him, it was lots of people like him. And maybe he had his reasons, so please refrain from insulting him. :petting:

It's always easy to judge, if you don't have the same personal experience as the person behind the story.
HE IS the person behind the story
I don't care if he deserted because it's none of my business. But he slept while on guard duty. Just saying
His words

He did not desert from the army, he told Russian television. He fell asleep at his post and was captured by mujahideen.

"They said to me: If you want to be a Muslim, accept this faith. If you don't, we'll kill you."

The mujahideen forced Gennady to fight for them. " But I didn't shoot at all", he said.

Still he feared returning home to face a possible court-martial

[juhae]

HE IS the person behind the story
My words were to my fellow forumites, and their strong condemnations.

And I have a strong belief that just one article doesn't really get you to understand his all possible motives and what he's been through.

[Uninen]

Any idea how many Soviets went "MIA" in Afghanistan? Anybody?

[hist2004]

May 15, 1988
The withdrawal of an estimated 115,000 Soviet troops, who had entered Afghanistan in December 1979 to prop up a faltering Communist regime, begins.
May 25, 1988
For the first time, the Soviet Union admits that it has suffered almost 50,000 casualties, including 13,310 deaths, in the conflict. A top general says that 35,478 soldiers were wounded and 311 missing without a trace. Gen. Aleksey D. Lizichev says that the death and injury toll includes casualties suffered from Dec. 27, 1979, until May 1, 1988. The figure is slightly higher than some Western analysts have estimated.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[Shake n Bake]

"They said to me: If you want to be a Muslim, accept this faith. If you don't, we'll kill you."



Ah...Decisions, Decisions, Decisions

[Roger Rabbit]

Its easy, you say you'll become a Muslim and then bugger off at first opportunity.

[Tommy Gunn]

Its easy, you say you'll become a Muslim and then bugger off at first opportunity.

This guy had years of opportunities to escape. He obviously did not try very hard. A lack of courage I think.

[aFgHaNibOi]

Its easy, you say you'll become a Muslim and then bugger off at first opportunity.

This guy had years of opportunities to escape. He obviously did not try very hard. A lack of courage I think.

Or maybe he converted for good? :|

[Kingpin]

Its easy, you say you'll become a Muslim and then bugger off at first opportunity.

This guy had years of opportunities to escape. He obviously did not try very hard. A lack of courage I think.

Or maybe he converted for good? :|



:) Who knows. People who escaped back to Soviet Union said that it was not for good. But may be just for them.

[khukuri]

In ww2. Atleast according to the book stalingrad, almost 200.000 russians converted to german army. In vietnam (just heard this) some (often black leftists) american soilders stayed with the vietnamise. In Iran/Irak war many irakis fought for Iran and som iranis fought for irak.

EOS

[Jack Mehoff]

In ww2. Atleast according to the book stalingrad, almost 200.000 russians converted to german army. In vietnam (just heard this) some (often black leftists) american soilders stayed with the vietnamise. In Iran/Irak war many irakis fought for Iran and som iranis fought for irak.

EOS

N. Vietnamese or S. Vietnamese?

[Roger Rabbit]

I dont think we should question this guys courage. We only have the news article to go on and as we all know then media sources arent always reliable.

[Jack Mehoff]

I dont think we should question this guys courage. We only have the news article to go on and as we all know then media sources arent always reliable.

And yet, some people still believe a heavily edited cut-and-paste video tape of an American Apache ****ed up some insurgents in Iraq

[khukuri]

In ww2. Atleast according to the book stalingrad, almost 200.000 russians converted to german army. In vietnam (just heard this) some (often black leftists) american soilders stayed with the vietnamise. In Iran/Irak war many irakis fought for Iran and som iranis fought for irak.

EOS

N. Vietnamese or S. Vietnamese?

North vietnamese. Thats why they were leftist or if you like som of them maybe actually were communists.

By the way, thos russians who fought on the nazi side, where called "non russians", and by the germans they were called HIWIS. Which chould stand for something like hilfschwillige, which should mean help-volunteers.
Ive read alot about those. They dont even exist in soviet archives, all cleaned out. But they exist in many other archives.

[Jack Mehoff]

I never heard any cases where American servicemen "stayed" with N. Vietnamese. I think you are mistaken for an American POW stay as prisoner for 20 years in N. Vietnam. I believe he was a Lt Col with the Air Force.

[khukuri]

I never heard any cases where American servicemen "stayed" with N. Vietnamese. I think you are mistaken for an American POW stay as prisoner for 20 years in N. Vietnam. I believe he was a Lt Col with the Air Force.

No that was no what ive heard. I was supposed to be those black marxists. Some of them should have deserted to N.V.A.

I've heard this in three places.
From a guy I know.
Once when I was reading about vietnam war long ago, some leftist texts.

And actually now I remember in one "Tour of Duty" series.

Thats all the "facts" I have, it maybe isnt true, I dont know.

[Jack Mehoff]

I spent one whole year in Vietnam in 1997 and I never heard anything like that. Do you know his name?

[jamesp]

I think you are mistaken for an American POW stay as prisoner for 20 years in N. Vietnam. I believe he was a Lt Col with the Air Force.


Do you have any links on this? I would search myself but I haveto go now.

[hist2004]

It wasn't an Air Force officer. It was a marine enlisted man named Robert
Garwood.
USMC Private Robert Garwood disappeared from the Da Nang Marine Base, Vietnam, in 1965. Later, Garwood was with US POWs in jungle prison camps in South Vietnam. But, Garwood was not in these camps as a POW -- he was, instead, an active member of Communist forces. When US POWs were released in 1973, Garwood remained in Vietnam, living freely, until 1979 when he asked to come home. He was convicted of collaboration and of striking an American POW.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[KOHTPAKTHuK]

Afgani boy,

if you stop smoking your ganja, and take the vail off your bitches - life will seem better.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Afgani boy,

if you stop smoking your ganja, and take the vail off your bitches - life will seem better.
Whats a ganja, and is it available in the States?
:lol:

[Kingpin]

Afgani boy,

if you stop smoking your ganja, and take the vail off your bitches - life will seem better.

Отец, слышь, завязывай.

[lion of afghanistan]

When Ahmad was Alexander

Topic: History and Society

Archives: February 2004

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IWPR
18-Feb-04
By Ilkhom Narziev

Not all the Soviet soldiers came home when the war in Afghanistan ended in 1989.

Nekmuhammad is a perfectly ordinary Afghan. He studies Islam, has a wife and three beautiful children, and a good job as a driver for an international organisation. What sets up apart from his neighbours is his secret past life as a Ukrainian conscript, left behind when the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan 15 years ago this week.

He lives on the outskirts of Kunduz, the Afghan city his unit was stationed in when it was attacked by mujahedin in the early Eighties. The young Gennady Tsevma, as he was then known, was captured and held prisoner for so long that he adapted fully to Afghan life.

By the time the Soviets cut their losses and left Afghanistan, Gennady was living as Nekmuhammad. He settled down and gave only passing thoughts to his family back home in the Ukrainian mining city of Donetsk. As the years went by, and news reached him of his parents’ death, he gradually gave up any hope of going back.

On February 15, 1989, General Boris Gromov was officially the last Soviet soldier to stand on Afghan soil before he crossed the Termez bridge into the USSR, drawing a close to the long and brutal campaign that Russian politicians were later to call “a tragic mistake”.

But Gennady, and more like him, were still there. As Russians, Ukrainians and the rest began shutting off from the Afghan war as a nightmare best forgotten, those who were left behind faded from memory, too.

Many would find it hard to go back – some were deserters, while others converted to Islam after being captured and held by the mujahedin. In the interim, the Soviet Union they had known collapsed into 15 different countries.

A few achieved some fame – notably the two Russian citizens known as Mohammadi and Islamuddin who served as bodyguards to the famous commander Ahmad Shah Massoud. As late as 1996, they were rumoured to be at the front line, fighting with Massoud’s Northern Alliance against the Taleban.

Since then the two men are said to have left Afghanistan, going back home to Russia. But others remain.

During a recent trip to Kunduz, a taxi driver tipped me off about someone called Ahmad, a former Soviet soldier now living as an Afghan.

This was far more than a rumour – I was given the address of the building where he rents a small room with his family.

Only half an hour later, I was sitting in a local store talking to a man in the typical flat “pakol” hat, with all the mannerisms and dialects of a native Afghan – but still looking like a Russian.

He looked so intimidating that I didn’t dare speak to him in Russian, switching over only after an initial conversation in Dari.

When I asked him what name his parents had given him, his face remained immobile as he whispered an Islamic invocation.

But after a long conversation in the dark, mud-walled room, Ahmad relaxed, and gradually revealed some of the characteristics of the young man he had once been – Private Alexander Levenets. The incongruousness of the situation was accentuated by the music he put on – Alexander Rosenbaum’s Soviet-era ballads of army life.

The 19-year-old Alexander, from the Ukrainian village of Melovadka, joined the Soviet army in April 1983. He thought his troubles were over, that he had a ticket out of a hard life of providing for his blind widowed mother and an elder brother with diabetes.

At first army life was good, as his unit was transferred around the USSR and eventually deployed at an airbase in Kunduz.

But things took a turn for the worse as – like many Soviet conscripts – he was subjected to beatings and other forms of humiliation by other, more senior soldiers in his unit. Eventually he could bear it no longer, and deserted.

One cold October night in 1984, Alexander fled into the night. His life was saved by a kindly old Afghan, who took pity on him and allowed him to hide at his house.

The man introduced the deserter to some mujahedin, who fortunately for him belonged to one of the more moderate factions. They listened sympathetically to his story, and treated him with a respect he had not had from his countrymen.

“I stayed in the group,” he said. “And after a month, I accepted Islam.”

So Alexander became Ahmad, serving under guerrilla commander Omir Ghulam – but not expected to take up arms against the army he had once served in. The Afghans’ acceptance of him grew into respect as he became a more observant Muslim than most of them.

In 1989, after the Soviet withdrawal, Alexander was able to send a letter home via the Red Crescent Society. He found out his mother and brother were alive, and they asked him to return – but he did not have the means to do so.

Alexander lost contact with home in the chaos that accompanied the end of the USSR and the emergence of an independent Ukraine. Meanwhile, his other life, the Afghan one, developed - he married in 1993, and now has two daughters, Hadicha and Soro. Neither his wife nor the children speak Russian.

In 1996, when the Taleban captured Kunduz, Alexander was working as a taxi driver. The fundamentalist regime left him alone, perhaps in recognition of his knowledge of Islam.

When the Taleban were toppled in the winter of 2001, United Nations personnel helped Alexander to get in touch with his homeland by telephone, but there was no good news waiting for him this time. His mother and brother had died over the long years of his exile.

He has since given up all hope of going back to Ukraine, saying, “Where would I go, and to whom? Anyway, my life back home was terrible – fatherless, with a blind mother and an ill brother, poverty and no prospects.

“Here I have relatives, my clan. Even if I am unemployed now, my wife’s brothers are helping me. They respect me; they need me. Who needs me back home?

“Mother passed away waiting for me. My eldest daughter Hadicha is the very image of her,” said Alexander sadly, hugging the child. “Now I want my children to get a good education and become teachers. God willing, if everything is settled, I’ll send them to Kabul to study when they grow up.”

As the interview drew to a close, and Ahmad took over from Alexander again, he said he was resigned to the way things had turned out, “I don’t blame anyone for what has happened to me. Everything is the will of Allah and apparently this is my destiny.”

Later, Alexander drove me from the centre of Kunduz to a suburb, where he was to introduce me to his friend Gennady Tsevma – Nekmuhammad – one of about ten former Soviet soldiers he knew of still living in northern Afghanistan.

Conditions worsened as we drove further out of the city, and the car eventually become stuck in the mud of an impassable road. Abandoning it, we trudged on foot toward a small village surrounded by graves. The narrow streets were dark and eerie, and the graveyard dogs – woken by the sound of our boots on the muddy road – howled into the night.

Alexander strode up to a large wooden gate and hammered on it, shouting, “Nekmuhammad! Open the gate, guests from the motherland have arrived!”

The gate opened to reveal a man lit by the flicker of a kerosene lamp, and looking for all the world like a Russian Cossack despite his Afghan dress.

Gennady was barely 18 years old when he was drafted into the Soviet army in the spring of 1983. His parents and younger brother Sergei waved him off at the Donetsk enlistment office.

After training, he was stationed in Soviet Uzbekistan and then transferred to Kunduz.

On his first night on sentry duty, Gennady’s unit was attacked by the mujahedin. He tried to shout out a warning, but one of the attackers put a knife to his throat. He was bundled into a sack and taken prisoner.

He gradually adopted the Muslim faith and soon lost all hope of seeing his homeland again.

“My parents died waiting for me to return. I feel guilty that they suffered because of me – because I was unable to escape from here,” he said.

Gennady has a good job working as a driver for an Italian non-government organisation.

But although he is younger than his friend Alexander, he looks much older. His health has recently begun failing as a result of a leg injury he sustained two decades ago while still in the Soviet military. His leg suddenly shortened last year and the pain has become chronic and almost intolerable.

“It’s getting more and more difficult to go to work, but I have to, as my daughters Sangimo and Malposha are still small, and my son Fazylo has not fully grown up yet,” he explained.

“Every morning, while it’s still dark, I limp over to our Kamaz truck with him to teach him to drive so that he can support his sisters and mother if something happens to me.

His wife Havo, who married Gennady when she was only 12 years old, told me, “Thanks be to Allah that I was married to him – he is kind, he doesn’t beat or curse me, and takes care of us all. But now he is getting sick.”

While Gennady has so far been able to hold his job, his life is not without other worries. His daughters are afraid to go out to play in the street because the neighbours’ children bully them, taunting them with the term “shuravi” or “Soviets” – an insult apparently learned from their parents.

Gennady worries about what future his daughters will have in this devastated country, with so few schools or job prospects. And as the days pass, his thoughts are increasingly turning to his homeland.

His younger brother Sergei – whom he last saw when he went off to the army – still lives in Ukraine, and Gennady was recently able to trace his telephone number.

It was a draining emotional experience for all concerned. The children couldn’t understand why their father was crying, or why he was talking to some far-off relative in a strange foreign language.

“Sergei, don’t cry, I will definitely come to you,” Gennady told the brother he hadn’t spoken to for two decades.

“I will come home for sure.”

[lion of afghanistan]

Or u can visit the link: http://www.afgha.com/?af=article&sid=41351

[UkrainianAmerican]

Whats a Ganja?

[RomanS]

Afgani boy,

if you stop smoking your ganja, and take the vail off your bitches - life will seem better.

Отец, слышь, завязывай.

не понял...

[Russian Texan]

Lion, that article that you have posted here only proves that the guy was a coward and a weak link. People like that do not belong in a military and especially in the Russian military. What if he gotten in a firefight chickened out and let his comrades down? No military can afford a soldier like that because in war times the price is lives of his fellow soldiers who depend on him.
What are you so proud of? Are you proud that a coward with no morals (he left his sick mother back home) in order to save his pathetic life became one of you? Think about it...
I am glad that he is not a Russian anymore, he doesn't have what it takes to be one, you can have this sorry excuse for a human being.

Also I couldn't have helped myself noticing that you and a couple of other afghans, or so they claim to be , are seem to be very excited about "defeating" USSR.
My dear friend, Stalin once said: "The loss of one human life is a tragedy but a loss of a million is statistics"
So statistically speaking:
From 1979 to 1989 USSR lost 13,331 KIA.
Afghan casualties estimated anywhere between 1.6 to 2 million.
Hardly looks like "defeat" numbers to me...

You also do realise that the only reason USSR left that ****hole because it finally realised that your countryman were not ready yet for the 20th century.
Afganistan is frozen in time and not in a good time ,if I may add, and always will be due to its social and religious specifics.
Getting involved in Afganistan was a mistake in a first place but USSR leaders at that time thought it was neccessary.

Dear sir, from the stats and articles that I have read, mujahadeen had their asses kicked BIG time.
Where do you think USSR lost most its soldiers in that war - in convoys... Due to the topography of the region convoys were easy prey for the ambushes.
You might wonder what were those convoys carrying? - Oil, medicine, construction materials, things to turn Afganistan into semi-decent place to live.
Why don't you ask your parents or other adults how many schools, hospitals, power plants, roads, etc you have had before "evil" USSR invaded your country? Why don't you ask about why soviet civilian personell working in Afganistan was issued weapons and how many soviet civilians (doctors, teachers, engineers) were killed before USSR put its troops into your country?

The truth is that USSR could have stayed in Afganistan indefinetely if it saw any reason or use of it. Unfortunately/fortunately (depending on your views) USSR had very high casualty tolerance level and as cynical as it sounds - 13,331 KIA didn't even make a dent in Soviet armed forces. Just for comparison purposes, during Great Patriotic War USSR sometimes was loosing 15,000+ in a single day...
If USSR ever wanted to "conquer" your country it wouldn't even have had to put its troops in harms way - several heavy bomber flights would do the job. Recently I have read a very interesting article about biological warfare, apparently USSR was pretty advanced in that field.
Do you know that every ethnicity has it own "signature" and it is possible to modify certain biological agents in a way to make them react only to certain "traits". To put it simply virus that is harmless to a russian would be deadly for a afgani, much like back in conquistador times...

Several bombers fly over Afganistan, release canisters with biological weapon and fly away. Several days/weeks later everyone of afghan origin is simply dead of some unknown desease. End of story, end of race...

That's what an "evil empire" would do if for some reason it wanted your useless in all aspects country for itself.
Instead USSR installed a puppet goverment, yes it did. But you are forgeting what came with the package: literacy, education, medicine, electricity, etc...
USSR tried to pull Afganistan out of feudal times but failed.
13,331 KIA and 50,000+ wounded soviet soldiers ensured that tenths of thousands of afghanes could get education in soviet universities and enjoy fully paid trips to various soviet resorts.

And after all that, you guys have the audacity to come here and tell about how "an evil empire" was commiting atrocities against innocent civilians but brave mujahadeen kicked them out? :cantbeli:
Do you even know the meaning of the word "atrocities"?
Ever heard of "final solution?

All of that above was written in a very calm, educational manner.
Now listen here you stupid, brainwashed, ungrateful f**k and repeat after me: "My dear Russian friends, thank you for allowing me to be born."
And you should say it every time before you go to bed and everytime you wake up....because the only reason you exist is not because of Allah's will but because some 80 year old in the Soviet Politburo decided to make you a civilized country instead of opting for the modern day version of the "Final solution"...

[RomanS]

BROTHER! RUSSIAN TEXAN BROTHER!

If I had 10 hands, you would hear me clapping with 10 loud claps.

BRAVO!

Hey Afghani mudjaheds!
Did it feel good when our fathers left your ****hole, and droped all your chances for joining the European style life?

Of course you didn't want to live with TVs, Stereos, and Music. You had to discriminate all the above, including your women.

USA helped you a lot in fighting us- the none-Allah-believer kafirs.

You should be kissing their ass now, and owe them with everything you have. But what do you do instead? Blow up a bomb in Wolrd Trade Center in 1993, blow up embassies in mid 90s, and hijack the planes killing 3000 civilian lives in USA in 2001.
Stab your friend in the back.

Yeah for granted America helped you with weapons for their belives. They too wanted their government kick commies back to their homes. Lets put that aside.

Just imagine for a minute if the good ol USA didnt help your pathetic assholes with weapons, money, and medical aid during the war.
You would still be shooting your ****ty muskets at our Hinds.

If not US, your 2,000,000 mudjahedoons would be joining Allah for breakfast every morning for the next 2 months. It's all if would take. And now look how much credit you all ****ers take.

Just remember who helped you to even exist, besides us in 1970's....

[Sergei]

Ребята, давайте завязывайте и не будьте похожи на клоунов. Это такие же афганцы, как я Мама Тереза. Перед кем вы распинаетесь? В афгане интернета раз два и обчелся, и то большинство его себе позволить не может, не то, что какие-то афганские мальчики. Сидят себе чеченские провокаторы в России и под дурачка косят.

с уважением,
Сергей

[hist2004]

To echo your thoughts, that is why I started my thread in the first place. I have had
access to the information I have posted in my thread for a number of years. Due to
the nature of the relationship between Russian and the United States during that
time, it served no purpose for our government to advance the notion that Soviet SOF
were breaking the back of the mujahidden. So what do we have as gratitude from
the country of Afghanistan and their neighboring clients:

World Trade Center Bombing, February 26, 1993: The World Trade Center in New York City was badly damaged when a car bomb planted by Islamic terrorists explodes in an underground garage. The bomb left six people dead and 1,000 injured. The men carrying out the attack were followers of Umar Abd al-Rahman, an Egyptian cleric who preached in the New York City area.

Attempted Assassination of President Bush by Iraqi Agents, April 14, 1993: The Iraqi intelligence service attempted to assassinate former U.S. President George Bush during a visit to Kuwait. In retaliation, the U.S. launched a cruise missile attack 2 months later on the Iraqi capital Baghdad.

Attack on U.S. Diplomats in Pakistan, March 8, 1995: Two unidentified gunmen killed two U.S. diplomats and wounded a third in Karachi, Pakistan.

Saudi Military Installation Attack, November 13, 1995: The Islamic Movement of Change planted a bomb in a Riyadh military compound that killed one U.S. citizen, several foreign national employees of the U.S. Government, and more than 40 others.

Khobar Towers Bombing, June 25, 1996: A fuel truck carrying a bomb exploded outside the U.S. military's Khobar Towers housing facility in Dhahran, killing 19 U.S. military personnel and wounding 515 persons, including 240 U.S. personnel. Several groups claimed responsibility for the attack.

Empire State Building Sniper Attack, February 23, 1997: A Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland, and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine."

U.S. Embassy Bombings in East Africa, August 7, 1998: A bomb exploded at the rear entrance of the U.S. embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, killing 12 U.S. citizens, 32 Foreign Service Nationals (FSNs), and 247 Kenyan citizens. About 5,000 Kenyans, six U.S. citizens, and 13 FSNs were injured. The U.S. embassy building sustained extensive structural damage. Almost simultaneously, a bomb detonated outside the U.S. embassy in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, killing seven FSNs and three Tanzanian citizens, and injuring one U.S. citizen and 76 Tanzanians. The explosion caused major structural damage to the U.S. embassy facility. The U.S. Government held Usama Bin Ladin responsible.

Attack on U.S.S. Cole, October 12, 2000: In Aden, Yemen, a small dingy carrying explosives rammed the destroyer U.S.S. Cole, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39 others. Supporters of Usama Bin Ladin were suspected.


Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Homeland, September 11, 2001: Two hijacked airliners crashed into the twin towers of the World Trade Center. Soon thereafter, the Pentagon was struck by a third hijacked plane. A fourth hijacked plane, suspected to be bound for a high-profile target in Washington, crashed into a field in southern Pennsylvania. More than 5,000 U.S. citizens and other nationals were killed as a result of these acts. President Bush and Cabinet officials indicated that Usama Bin Laden was the prime suspect and that they considered the United States in a state of war with international terrorism. In the aftermath of the attacks, the United States formed the Global Coalition Against Terrorism.

To the readers of these forums, we are in war against radical Islamic fundamentalism
that will not end in your lifetimes.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[UkrainianAmerican]

Nicely said, hist.

[lion of afghanistan]

guys...

With due respect...when discussing there are some manners that are to be followed by both sides. Try to be civilized....there are hundreds of meanings to this word. Base ur saying on facts!

Yes, Soviet union was 'defeated' in afghanistan. Else why did they withdrew? Same was with the britishers. Who were defeated 3 times in the same land. Let me make it clear....Yes, i admire the soviet military power. And i admit, not only me, but the entire history that the afghans were crushed and suffered terribly from it might. Frankly speaking in every battle, if it was in open fields, the soviets could have run on us afghans within seconds. But the point here is that the same afghans who used to be crushed over and over again used to stand up again and face u. NOT WITHDRAW! Simply stating that they were brave. For 10 continuous years they all stood against that soviet union. And we waited to see who will withdraw the first! Was it the afghans who stopped resisting or u who withdrew. Let me put it in this way, in a soccer match, if a team is winning on his opponent and he suddenly withdraws in the mid of the match. Who shall be the winner? The losing team for sure.
Every afghan knows the might of that soviet military. But they never used to withdraw. They fought u till the second u withdrew.

U started to judge by numbers. Who is masood? and there armies? Are they trained armies? NO...they are only a bunch of poor farmers and villagers and civilians. Civilians from every sector of the afghan society joined together forming the seven resistance groups. Educated, illeterate, afghan army personnel, women, everyone took up arms against you. Land in kabul or any other place and find anyone happy with the soviet Union? If u measure defeat in terms of numbers killed. Yes then we lost in that cost. But bear it in mind, it is easy to kill civilians as many as u like. Please don't try to ignore the innocent people u killed. At least one from every afghan family lost there relative because of that invasion. I lost many from mine. Other were jailed but they managed to escape. My example is the simplest ones. Its not me who says that but every journalist, and human rights organizations say that. No need to listen to them evern....just visti afghanistan. I can't explain....its better that u guys just buy a ticket and visit any part of afghanistan rather that me explaining.

By the way, none of the afghans believe that the death toll of the soviet union is between 15000 to 20000. Its much more than that. And since when was the soviet union making the actual death toll public?
That soviet military might lost, not in front of an army but lost in front of civilians. Civilians with no training. Trust me...if the same soviet have attacked any of the arab countries, by the now the arabs were speaking russian. Afghans are different.

As a reply to hist. I blame the soviet union for the damn osama and his gang as well as the taliban. Who are the taliban. They are those whose parents were murdered by the soviets and who seeked refugee in neighbouring pakistan. Pakistan in turn made use of them for its own political strategy as russia's in afghanistan.

Afghanistan was a haven for the soviets before the invasion. At least it was peaceful and people were happy with there living conditions. Yes, u have built hospitals and schools. But if the people or civilians resist you and don't want it from u then go back to where u all came from. U killed 2 million afghans for the sake of building for us schools and hospitals. Hospitals are to cure the injured not a means ro excuse to kill. And if u fall a prey to those simple political propagations of building roads etc then u better wake up.

There is a lot of references that u can look before discussing issues of afghanistan. I hate when people who are motivated with there feeling bark in this forum. Same with the people who haven't witnessed anything and just fill up this forum.

I gotta go...and i kindly request u all, to respect other religions. A REQUEST!

[lion of afghanistan]

Also our confrontation with USSR occured many times. Check this site:

Here again is a good example of how the soviets WITHDREW.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1987/DRJ.htm


"the Soviets promptly turned around and invaded Afghanistan the

following year, December, 1925, occupying an island in the Amu

Darya River which historically had been settled by Afghans.

The island had been serving as a base for raids against the

Soviet Union by Uzbek refugees of the Russian Revolution and

Soviet soldiers, dressed as natives, simply seized the island

and proclaimed its annexation to the U.S.S.R. The king sent

troops to the disputed area, threatening war and the British

also expressed alarm. In the face of this opposition, Moscow

withdrew its troops in 1926 recognizing Afghan ownership of the


island.9"

[hist2004]

“As a reply to hist. I blame the soviet union for the damn osama and his gang as well as the taliban. Who are the taliban. They are those whose parents were murdered by the soviets and who seeked refugee in neighbouring pakistan. Pakistan in turn made use of them for its own political strategy as russia's in afghanistan.”


I disagree with your analysis. The United States supported OBL as well as all the other
Resistance Groups. If not for our material aid, which reached in the billions, the war would have been over in a short period of time. The US went there to give the Soviet Union a black
eye. We had our own agenda. However, I don’t see how you’ve reached your conclusion. What
did the United States do to incur the attacks of Bin Ladin and company. We helped your country, so it’s time to attack the US.
Osama declared war on the west from the time we put troops in Saudi Arabia to defend the
Kingdom against Saddam. He saw it as a trespass on sacred ground. Funny, the Royal family
didn’t see it that way. All they did was support Al Qaeda in the background in order to keep
hold of their power. Pakistan, come on, they created the Taliban through the use of their ISI.
(Inter-Service Intelligence). Have to keep those heroin profits up, religion or no religion.
I think killing in the name of religion is wrong no matter who does it, Christians, Islam, Buddhists, it makes no difference. It goes against the fundamentals of religion itself.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[2Sheds_Jackson]

There are brave fighters on any side of a conflict - it doesn't matter what hat you wear, it doesn't make you better or worse. What matters is what you are fighting for. I don't mean to insult any Afghans here - everybody is entitled to be proud of where they're from, but I’m throwing in my two cents. Feel free to flame me as appropriate.

I don't believe that just because somebody is from a certain group, they are responsible for history. For example, a 20 year old German is not responsible for the events of WWII. Thus I'm not personally attacking anybody here, just because they may be from Afghanistan.

I don't go in much for multiculturalism. By that I mean that I don’t' believe that all cultures are equally deserving of admiration and/or preservation. Some ways of life are not worth protecting or preserving.

Afghanistan is still a vast wasteland, with a backward social code that promotes discrimination based on religion, race, *** etc., tribal warfare, illiteracy, low life expectancy, and no democracy. The Afghans were fighting to preserve that way of life. Left on their own, the Afghans seem to have done a very poor job of bringing their nation into the 18th century.

I can't comment intelligently about events that happened during the fighting - I don't know enough about it. I've seen some video, and it was pretty goddamn vicious.

I was active US military at the time of the war & more or less automatically backed our policy. At the time, the Soviets were "the bad guy" and everything they did had to be wrong. I do sometimes wonder now whether we backed the wrong horse.

Had the Soviets succeeded there - would we be in the same situation we are now? With a stable and peaceful Afghanistan, the entire region may have turned out much different.

To me, all these various nations who have been "defeated" in Afghanistan - seems to me they just decided it wasn't really worth the trouble & left. I hope we (Americans) have better luck. All people deserve to have a voice in their future, and to be given equal opportunities in life.

[lion of afghanistan]

I agree with u afghanistan has BECOME a wasteland. Take a look at the history of central asia and people and scientist that came out of that part. For a start i will name few, Uleg beg, Avvicena, Jamaluddin al afghani. That part of central asia was called as Turkisan. It was famous for its civilization and art. The trouble all started with the russians attacking it via the persians. Then came the Moghuls and the Britishers. Afghansitan and the afghans had to stand up against all these invaders. As each invader left, it left behind Destruction and dead. Take a look at the 20th century. We started it with fighting the britishers thrice. Then came the problems with persian empire and finally the soviet union invading us. And now the US.
I wonder from where and how we shall build up afghansitan when all these countries invading. Take a look! these are the answers of why we were unable to be a part of the 21st century.
I sometimes admire the Europeans and the US together for making it through the war (WW2) and building up there economy and civilization.

Another thing, yes, the soviet union could have stayed in afghanistan and everything was in peace and stability since by that time, no afghan would have been left alive - either they would have died fighting or been killed by the mass killings of the soviet union. I am talking to u as an afghan and how they fight for there freedom.

You think that the americans won this war in afghanistan? Don't ask me, ask the afghans in afghansitan. Trust me we find the soviet army much more better and braver than the US army. Many mujahids have been quoted describing the bravery of the soviets in afghanistan. Here is a fact, America could've never entered afghansitan without the Northern alliance help. The actual ground forces were that of the northern alliance. When the US asked the afghans not to enter kabul, did the afghans care? NO....they entered the next morning uncaring for the US. THE US role was limited to the airforce. But that role was the most important one. I have to admit. In my city herat, none of the US bombing nor any of the US soldiers helped to regain it. It was the people who uprose against the taliban, once again with the help of Ismail khan who escaped from the taliban jail. TRUST ME! IF the afghans in afghanistan knew the hell that the US media is propagating of it winning the war and using words as OCCUPYING AND CONQUERING kabul, the next day u will see bloodshed all over the place. Thats why the americans are too careful of avoiding afghan civilian deaths. unlike the soviets!

Also ask urselves why did karzai uprise against the taliban before even sept 11th happenings. The answer lies in the death of ahmad shah massood. He saw foreigners entering in afghansitan and killing famed afghans.

I don't wanna boast or anything. But it seems that the west have yet to learn some characters of the afghan society. Freedom! INDEPENDENCE are one of it. Freedom which is interpreted in the west is entirely different from what the afghans think of it. Now that shall be another topic.

I am not downplaying the role of American military. For i know that its military can not only crush the northern alliance but also flatten the mountains of afghanistan. But it seems that people don't understand the fact that winning a war depends on many factors other than the military power!!!!

[hist2004]

Not downplaying the role of the American Military??? Interesting how you now refer to the “hated” Soviet Army as brave, braver than the American Army. Very interesting…
I also noticed that you failed to answer my questions on why we were attacked…please,
I’m waiting for your analysis…

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[ibstolidude]

Post some more inaccuracies about how the US lacked any ground presence. I mean after all none of us could have possibly been in Afghansitan before.

[lion of afghanistan]

Hist,

Regarding the material aid. There were seven resistance groups in afghanistan. ONLY 2 of them were receiving the aids. That of Hekmatyars and Younis khalis. But these groups were not that effective against the soviets. The main parties that were really effective against the soviets were that of Masood. Ismail khan and abdul haq too received little to none of that aid and were most effective against the soviet union. Most of the weapons in the afghan war that were used were either captured from dead soviet soldiers or the afghan army when switching sides supplied them. Its sort of funny when some americans say that the stinger changed the outcome of the war.

Here is a russian site http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/afghanistan/1988.htm

Compare the planes shot down before and after the 1986 (the year the stinger was supplied).


Here check this by the russian author:

SO ACCORDING TO THE CIA, the americans provided the afghans only with 300 stingers. Lets say all singers hit their intended targets i.e. 300 soviet planes. Here is the point...look at the data according to the soviets of the no. of planes and jets they lost in total from the beinning of the war. i.e. (I AM QUOTING)

"Soviets lost approximately 600 aircrafts by summer of 1986. i.e. prior to the introduction of Blowpipe and stinger missiles. After 1986, aircraft losses skyrocketed to an ANNUAL RATE of 438-547 ANNUALLY"
This is quoted from the book STUMBLING BEAR- SOVIET MILITARY PERFORMANCE IN AFGHANISTAN by McMicheal. pg 91 chapter "the air war".


Another thing, go and count the no. of planes lying on the hills and streets of afghanistan. Check by urself that the no. of planes that fell in afghanistan fell more than that the soviets proclaiming.

Masoods forces only used two stingers throughout the war. And none hit its target. Stingers and US Aid went to Hekmatyar who collected them and started a civil war after the withdraw of the soviet union.

THE US aid was limited only to providing stingers and egyptian mines via the pakistanis. ARMS and money were sent to pakistan which had the responsibility of GIVING IT TO THE MUJAHIDEENS. But unfortunately they took most of it and only a small part was going to the mujahideen that too distributed unevenly to those who served pakistan political interests as Hekmatyr. The unequal distribution of arms and ammunition led to a intresting fact...Mujahideens had to fight EACH other in order to get arms to KILL THE SOVIETS. We fought the soviets till 1986 with weapons of the british era..the enfiled rifle. I have a lot of pics of it carried by the mujahideens. YES ...indeed the US HELPED us by ONLY supplying the stinger which i have to admit was A BIT effective against the soviet airpower. stingers started to arrive in afghanitan in 1986 i.e. 6 years after the war started. Any military observer can state the fact that it was not the stinger that changed the outcome of the war.

According to the book "THE HIDDEN WAR", the author describes how afghans became proffessional markspan snipers. They were TRYING THERE BEST to kill a soviet using only ONE BULLET. Otherwise they had to go to the border and buy for 3 $ a bullet magazine from the pakistanis. Please obseve the facts.

There is another famous study performed by american and todays interior minister of afghanistan ALi ahmad jalali - as a part of study be americans to undermine the reasons that led to the soviets losing the war. They discuss the tactics used by the mujahideens. Sort of a interesting thing to read. I encourage u all to get it. Its funny and proves how with simple weapons, the soviets were defeated. Again, its an american study.
The Other Side of the Mountain: Mujahideen Tactics in the Soviet Afghan War
by Colonel A. Jalali, Lt. Colonel L.W. Grau

I have to say that Israel too helped in providing AK-47's to the afghan cause. That was only specifically to Hekmatyars group.

Regards,

[lion of afghanistan]

Hist,

I will only answer onto why u were attacked! DID ANY AFGHAN TAKE ANY ROLE IN ANY TERRORSIT ACT? Did any afghan TAKE PART IN SEPT11? DID any of the afghans commit SUCUIDE BOMBING? even during the soviet unions war? THE ANSWER IS NO.

What happened is that 6+2 countries, pakistan, saudi , India, Russia, china and iran after the withdrawal of the Soviet union started to make use of the absence of security and government in afghanistan. The absence of the sense of security, law, order and government that was created by the soviet INVASION led to all these gangs to come together in afghanistan and start there terrorist activities against the US. The afghans again fell victim after the soviets to these foreigners -The foreigners were those who were kicked out from there country of origin due to political mess they created. They all had nowhere to go other than sudan or afghansitan. I assure u that none of these terrorists are the once that fought along side us against the soviets. Those who fought alongside us numbers only 3000 foreigners. Others came after the soviet war during 1994 period from sudan. The damn arabs are to be blamed for all this.
Afghans for a long time were resisting them. Masood and every members of the afghan community and resistance groups were against them. We fought them, with US just watching. But when it hit the US, the US woke up to the call and took part finally.

Hope that answers,

[ibstolidude]

I have to say that Israel too helped in providing AK-47's to the afghan cause. That was only specifically to Hekmatyars group.

Regards,

- Gulbuddin Hekmatyar? Right?
Hekmatyar and ISRAEL?

do you mean when he was leading Hezbi Islami?
Or when he was part of Hezbi wahdat/wahjat?
Or when he began the anti Daoud and many believe turned to the communists in the mid '70s in panshir?
hiding in Iran?
breifly PM of afghanistan or fighting against Massoud?
when he was PDPA before he was accused of murder?

[hist2004]

We disagree. Afghanistan hosted the terrorist organization, and allowed the training of their personal on their sovereign ground. The US asked the taliban to hand over OBL. They refused. Did any Afghan's attack the US?
No, they just hosted the terrorists and didn't condemn the attack. What
would you have us believe? I've already explained the Stinger controversy
in my thread.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[lion of afghanistan]

Then i am sorry Hist to say that if u are imagining the afghans having control over the hell that was happening in their county since 1994 to 2000, u r wrong. If u know anyone in afghanistan ask them! even an american soldier in afghansitan will tell u about how much the afghans hated them.
MOST (90% or more) of the afghans were against the taliban. In my city of herat in 1998 when i was there. everyone hated them, for they caused unemployments and killings. But people had no control on what was happeneing. Frankly speaking, i found them TIRED OF WAR. Its easy to write that phrase. But imagine urself in there situation for 25 years. One good thing the taliban did to the afghan was that it brought them SECURITY and Took away the arms. People used to travel from the very far west (HERAT) to massoods taloqan to join the resistance.

THEN how do u explain the talibans withdrawing from the cities one by one daily? I know the answer to you is the american airpower. BUT trust me it was the UPRISE of the people against them. They knew they lacked the support which the mujahideen used to enjoy during the soviet invasion.

U use the words 'Afghanistan hosted the terrorist organization'. I would have agreed with u if this government (taliban) was accepted by the afghans majority or by the international community. If u knew arabic, there is a good link in aljazeera of Sayyaf speaking against them and there foolishness. Didn't u see the pictures of afghan civilians kicking the dead bodies of the taliban???
A part of the taliban were afghans who got used up and lost by the pakistani politics and used them. I don't at all blame them. For they were brought up in an environment of war with there parents dead due to once again, the soviet invasion. They had no choice.

Why the taliban refused to hand over OSAMA. Then thats another HUGE TOPIC hist. Here u need to see the role of religion, culture. Which shall open another big door.

The situation is the same when the britishers asked for the german generals who escaped to afghansitan under the protection of King amanullah. Amanullah did the same and refused to hand them. For here the afghan hospitality plays a role.

You might be surprised. But every society is different. Every society isn't an american society. Every society has its own laws and regulations and FREEDOM!

[lion of afghanistan]

Didn't Karzai, ismail khan abdullah abdullah and all afghans condemn the attacK. Haven't u heard of the Sept 11 afghan art show in kabul?? Any HUMANBEING will condemn that attack. don't confuse us with arabs p-)

[hist2004]

I was born in the United States, but my family is from Europe. I understand different cultures, and all of us will be shaped by our
governments policies.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[Kingpin]

Lion, actually, both sides agreed in one thing - invasion of 1979 was a mistake.
One thing about which we disagreed - how much people fought against soviet army. You said - everyone. But there always was people and tribes friendly to Soviet troops or at least neutral to them.

[Kingpin]

err... Farmers i suppose...
http://www.afgan.ru:8101/39/39oni12.jpg


err... sure every man of Afganistan fought against soviet... blah-blah-blah

http://www.afgan.ru:8101/39/39mi20.jpg


Beluji nomads, found in the southern provinces, were for the most part friendly

[khukuri]

One thing about which we disagreed - how much people fought against soviet army. You said - everyone. But there always was people and tribes friendly to Soviet troops or at least neutral to them.


Wherever you go its like that. Specially in third world countries.
Many europian countries have their borders after what cind of people live and where they do. In third world countries they borders where made by the british and french who just made lines through different cind of people.

Marocko is one example.


Or antoher one is afghanistan where the pashtu people of afghanistan feel theyve got more incommon with pakistan that other afghans.