F-16I problems?

[DLodge]

Interesting article...

JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - FEBRUARY 18, 2004

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Radar concerns cast shadow over F-16I buy
ALON BEN-DAVID JDW Correspondent
Tel Aviv

The Israel Air Force (IAF) is "highly dissatisfied" with the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-68(V)9 radar installed in its new F-16I multirole fighters, according to senior Israeli defence sources.

With the first of 102 Lockheed Martin F-16Is scheduled to arrive in Israel on 19 February, a growing number of defence officials are now criticising the procurement.

JDW has learned that following a series of test flights at Lockheed Martin's facility in Fort Worth, Texas, IAF pilots assessed the synthetic-aperture radar (SAR) mode of the AN/APG-68(V)9 to be "below IAF operational standards".

Israel's former minister of defence, Moshe Arens, who negotiated the F-16I deal, told JDW he is not surprised to learn about the radar's performance problems. "Our intention was to install Israeli-made radar in the F-16Is, but the US government made the whole sale conditional on the purchase of US-made radar. I argued that [Israel Aircraft Industries' subsidiary] Elta's radar had a proven better performance and lesser cost than the US radars, but the Americans were unrelenting," Arens said.

The Israel Defence Force (IDF) spokesperson's office declined to comment on the matter, and a spokesperson for Lockheed Martin said that "the issue is between the Israeli and the US governments".

Senior IAF officers have recently met with both Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman executives and presented them with what they described as "performance problems of the radar". IAF sources said that "once the aircraft arrive in Israel, further tests will be conducted in co-ordination with the manufacturer".

However, according to a Northrop Grumman spokesman, the company hosted a SAR "summit" for all key principals in January 2004, at the US government's request, to evaluate the radar's performance. At the end of that session, the parties agreed that the radar had met all its performance specifications, that the development phase was completed and that the IAF should now evaluate the radar in its own environment.

IAF sources said that in 1999 the service's preferred option was for Lockheed Martin's F-16I over Boeing's F-15I - partly because an offer to purchase two batches of 50 aircraft had significantly lowered the price per unit. However, the $4.4 billion F-16I deal, Israel's largest-ever single procurement, is now under increasing scrutiny by both former and current defence officials.

"I don't think we should have decided in 1999 on fighters we will still be receiving in 2008," said Brig Gen Eival Giladi, who until last December was head of strategic planning for the IDF. "I am not worried about their technology, but I'm not sure that what we will need in 2008 are fighters. We should have opted for the smaller [F-15] deal. Even though we would have lost the considerable discount, we would have gained much more freedom to decide later on the structure of our air force."

Arens, who supported the F-16I deal at the time, said: "In perspective, it could be that we were a little hasty. Considering the strategic changes in the region, I am not sure we should have made that deal."

While IAF Commander Maj Gen Dan Halutz (now IDF Deputy Chief of Staff elect) maintained that the F16I procurement "was the right decision then and still is today", other senior officers are questioning the decision, which committed a large part of US Foreign Military Financing (FMF) to Israel for almost a decade.

The IDF's budget was drastically reduced in the last two years, making the FMF the only available funds for new procurements.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon recently added NIS1 billion ($224.2 million) to the 2004 defence budget, totalling NIS33.4 billion, and pledged an additional NIS1.6 billion in 2005.

[IDFM203]

JDW has learned that following a series of test flights at Lockheed Martin's facility in Fort Worth, Texas, IAF pilots assessed the synthetic-aperture radar (SAR) mode of the AN/APG-68(V)9 to be "below IAF operational standards".

Israel's former minister of defence, Moshe Arens, who negotiated the F-16I deal, told JDW he is not surprised to learn about the radar's performance problems. "Our intention was to install Israeli-made radar in the F-16Is, but the US government made the whole sale conditional on the purchase of US-made radar. I argued that [Israel Aircraft Industries' subsidiary] Elta's radar had a proven better performance and lesser cost than the US radars, but the Americans were unrelenting," Arens said.

Thanks for that article :D

Here is my opinion on it.

Question: why wouldn’t they allow it??

Answer: Because 60 to 70 percent of all U.S. aid money that goes to Israel must be spend back in the U.S.

Anyways I hope that Israel circumvents this and puts in its own Rador (if it hasn’t actually done this already ;) )

Shalom :D

[DLodge]

Anyways I hope that Israel circumvents this and puts in its own Rador
Firstly, that probably violates whatever stipulations Israel agreed to when they signed the contract to purchase the F-16I. Secondly, even if they did install the Elbit, they'd have to pay for the APG-68 anyway plus whatever additional R&D costs removing that and adding the Elbit would incur. Since the F-16I already eats up quite a lot of their FMF, I don't see that as a viable option. Looks like they'd have been better served with smaller numbers of F-15Is and its proven technology.



(if it hasn’t actually done this already ;) )
Highly unlikely, since the first F-16I hasn't even been delivered to Israel yet.

[IDFM203]

Anyways I hope that Israel circumvents this and puts in its own Rador
Firstly, that probably violates whatever stipulations Israel agreed to when they signed the contract to purchase the F-16I. Secondly, even if they did install the Elbit, they'd have to pay for the APG-68 anyway plus whatever additional R&D costs removing that and adding the Elbit would incur. Since the F-16I already eats up quite a lot of their FMF, I don't see that as a viable option. Looks like they'd have been better served with smaller numbers of F-15Is and its proven technology. I said I hope…but yes I agree that it’s unlikely as you describe it (believe me I understand how and why this works like that)

Just to nit pic a bit…..what additional costs to R&D to remove it….I believe most of the knowledge is known already on what to do.

If this really is as inferior as they say it is, well something needs to be done about it!!

Hell if not the Israeli one then what about the one that is on the UAE version.

I seem to recall you saying that its better due to the improved radar, meaning that they have improved rador in the U.S.


Anways I hear you about the F-15I……..perhaps if they cant get their own radar then they should scale back on their orders of the F-16I or simply wait for those F-35’s ;) :D

Shalom :D

[DLodge]

If this really is as inferior as they say it is, well something needs to be done about it!!
Don't worry, I'm sure it will all get worked out! New systems always have teething problems, and I doubt the IDF/AF would accept a sub-par radar. That being said, fixing whatever's not working right might take a lot more time than Israel wants to wait. Particularly as the first F-16I delivered to Israel is supposed to arrive in a few days.


Hell if not the Israeli one then what about the one that is on the UAE version.

I seem to recall you saying that its better due to the improved radar, meaning that they have improved rador in the U.S.
It is better, but the problem is that the UAE "owns" it having provided all the money for R&D.


Anways I hear you about the F-15I
Yeah, the Strike Eagle offers better performance and looks a lot cooler too IMHO. If Israel had gone for additional F-15I purchases they'd get all the extra goodies the Koreans are getting on their F-15K, possibly including an AESA radar (like the F-16 Block 60 the UAE is buying) but without the extra costs the UAE incurred.

[IDFM203]

Don't worry, I'm sure it will all get worked out! New systems always have teething problems, and I doubt the IDF/AF would accept a sub-par radar. That being said, fixing whatever's not working right might take a lot more time than Israel wants to wait. Particularly as the first F-16I delivered to Israel is supposed to arrive in a few days. Well first of all, regardless of the first deliveries, there are supposed to be more to come throughout the next four years so there are more deliveries after the first wave

Secondly yes the IAF can (and must) wait, if its about improving what it considers to be sub par.


It is better, but the problem is that the UAE "owns" it having provided all the money for R&D. Well I hear you, but they get some Israeli technology in their planes (as I believe that was mentioned before here on this site) so why cant Israel get some of the U.S. one's that they paid for?

Actually I don’t even want their U.S. version, I’d be very happy with the Israeli one ;) :D

Yeah, the Strike Eagle offers better performance and looks a lot cooler too IMHO. If Israel had gone for additional F-15I purchases Well I was not in the IAF but I know this much. They need both the F-16I and the F-15I for those planes serve different purposes and have different abilities and it is not wise for the IAF to have only one type of plane as you are suggesting.

No the IAF needs the F-16I as well to compliment its fleet of F-15I’s and just needs to get the better U.S. rador or install one of its own (that its own companies make :D )

Shalom :D

[mustamato]

Ahaha. Maybe the original technology got jammed by the "israeli advancements" :)

[DLodge]

Well I hear you, but they get some Israeli technology in their planes (as I believe that was mentioned before here on this site) so why cant Israel get some of the U.S. one's that they paid for?
The U.S. didn't pay for it, the United Arab Emirates did. The UAE does have Israeli technology in its aircraft, the JHMCS and probably other systems, but they paid something on the order of $2 billion for the APG-80. That's a lot of money to throw away.


Well I was not in the IAF but I know this much. They need both the F-16I and the F-15I for those planes serve different purposes and have different abilities and it is not wise for the IAF to have only one type of plane as you are suggesting.

No the IAF needs the F-16I as well to compliment its fleet of F-15I’s and just needs to get the better U.S. rador or install one of its own (that its own companies make :D )
The F-15I and the F-16I were both considered for this purchase. The contract was eventually given to the F-16, despite its inferior performance, because it was cheaper and Israel could acquire more for the same cost as fewer F-15s.

[SeanAshi]

We should sell Israel the F-117, B1, and B2! Syria and Iran would really love that. :D

[mustamato]

We should sell Israel the F-117, B1, and B2! Syria and Iran would really love that. :D

You mean that you should donate them to Israel with american tax-payers money?

[Yard Ape]

No the IAF needs the F-16I as well to compliment its fleet of F-15I’s and just needs to get the better U.S. rador or install one of its own (that its own companies make :D )Upgrades to the F15 have made current generations multi-role fighters. Across this spectrum of roles it out performs the F16 in all aspects. The F15 has twin engines, which makes it a true all weather aircraft, the F16 is only single engine.

The choice of F16 over F15 entirly cost based.

[SeanAshi]

You mean that you should donate them to Israel with american tax-payers money?
Actually I was just being a smartass ;) What is the cost of the F-22?

[Yard Ape]

If it was a matter of X number of dollars that had to be spent in the US defence industry, were other US aircraft looked at? Maybe F18 or maybe even the A10 (I know this is going back a bit, but this is a proven aircraft that is still performing on the modern battle field).

[IDFM203]

“Well I hear you, but they get some Israeli technology in their planes (as I believe that was mentioned before here on this site) so why cant Israel get some of the U.S. one's that they paid for?”


The U.S. didn't pay for it, the United Arab Emirates did. The UAE does have Israeli technology in its aircraft, the JHMCS and probably other systems, So you’re saying that the UAE owns the U.S. knowledge and intellectual property as well?!?

I mean say if the U.S. wants to build its own version of the plane it built for the UAE, it needs to ask their permission to use the U.S. technology that it made??

If so, than wow is all I can say :roll:

If not, then just like UAE and others get the benefit of Israeli technology, Israel should get the benefit of U.S. technology, even if someone else paid for it.

(I am curious to understand how Israel allows their technology to get into the UAE planes………….but I guess that’s a whole other subject ;) )



The F-15I and the F-16I were both considered for this purchase. The contract was eventually given to the F-16, despite its inferior performance, because it was cheaper and Israel could acquire more for the same cost as fewer F-15s. True and I knew that as well.

However, it still doesn’t negate the need for both of those types of fighters.

Again I was not in the air force, but I know both serve a purpose.

But hell if it was purely a cost thing, (which I am not denying and I have read that as well) and the F-16I is sub par and the U.S. radar is in fact sub par to the Israeli one or to the one that the UAE has, well that’s a problem and Israel should cancel its future orders or demand upgrades or that it be allowed to upgrade with its own technology.


If it was a matter of X number of dollars that had to be spent in the US defence industry Of course it was only that…hell if Israel could spend it all in Israel, we’d be building our own planes ;) :D


Maybe F18 or maybe even the A10 (I know this is going back a bit, but this is a proven aircraft that is still performing on the modern battle field). you know I never thought about the A10, in truth I like that aircraft (especially being that I was in a combat infantry unit)…I don’t know why Israel never got the a10


You mean that you should donate them to Israel with american tax-payers money? You as a fin that constantly bashes the U.S. your opinion on where and what U.S. tax payers should spend their money on rings very hollow :roll:

Hell it be like if I complained (well not really but for now I will stick with this), all those years, as someone who isn’t the biggest fan of Europe so to speak, when the U.S. spent over 130 billion a year and put thousands and thousands of troops in bases in Europe throughout the cold war to protect Europe from speaking Russian and being dirt poor. Their money and troops there ensured that Europe can field small “token” militaries (yes not all of European militaries fit that description, Britain for one comes immediately to mind) and build great economies.


Israel isnt the only one that has benefited from U.S. taxpayers, at least we are appreciative and aren’t forgetting or ungrateful about it as some others are!! :roll:

Shalom :D

[Operation Ivy]

You mean that you should donate them to Israel with american tax-payers money?
Actually I was just being a smartass ;) What is the cost of the F-22?

I think a 100mil, thats just off the top of my head :D

[Tengu]

You mean that you should donate them to Israel with american tax-payers money?
Actually I was just being a smartass ;) What is the cost of the F-22?

71.2 mil

http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/military_aircraft_prices.htm

[AFACadet]

that site it 100% bull...



The Raptor costs a little over 100 mill right now.

[George W. Bush]

Now who's doing the usurping! Huh!?

[alexjulian]

If you want something done properly you have to do it yourself....i'm cancelling my order.

[oldsoak]

Bet the Israelis sometimes wished they'd ignored the US and built the LAVI.