JTF-2 trained to be 'anti-social', says ex-general

[2RHPZ]

How come it has not been posted already?

Keep JTF2 'killers' on military base: Tory: Highly secretive unit trained to be 'anti-social:' ex-general O'Connor


Soldiers in Canada's special forces unit, JTF2, should move from their current Dwyer Hill location to a military base because they are highly trained in "anti-social" behaviours and need to be kept strictly disciplined, says Conservative defence critic Gordon O'Connor.

"They're very highly trained people who are trained in anti-social skills, I would call it -- they're trained to kill people in various ways," Mr. O'Connor, a former army general, told the Citizen's editorial board yesterday. "I would prefer them to be under iron-tight discipline inside a military base."

The top-secret Joint Task Force 2 is currently located at the corner of Franktown and Dwyer Hill roads, about 20 kilometres south of Ottawa's downtown core, in Mr. O'Connor's riding of Carleton-Mississippi Mills.

Relations between the top-secret unit and its neighbours have been less than harmonious in recent years. Neighbours have complained about low-flying military helicopters, gunfire and explosions and accused JTF2 officials of harassing them in an effort to force them to sell their land.

One landowner is suing the Defence Department for digging a trench across his property, an act defence officials have admitted. (The unit offered to purchase the land, but declined a counter-offer to buy him a similar-sized lot in the area.)

With the unit in the midst of an expansion from 300 to 600 soldiers, defence officials are contemplating moving it somewhere else in the region or expanding the current location. Mr. O'Connor has previously suggested moving the installation to the former airbase in Rockcliffe Park or to Petawawa.

"I want organizations like that in military bases," Mr. O'Connor said.

"(With) a force like that, you have to maintain very tight discipline."

The two challengers in Carleton-Mississippi Mills yesterday said the unit should stay where it is.

"I would be very proud to represent men and women of that calibre in the riding," Liberal hopeful Isabel Metcalfe said.

"It's got to go somewhere, so it might as well stay where it is," NDP candidate Tasha Bridgen echoed.

Link (http://server09.densan.ca/archivenews/051222/cit/051222ac.htm)

[Resurrection]

Damn... 600 JTF-2 soldiers? That's quite a handful.

[Pai Mei]

So training to kill is equated with training to be anti-social? By that logic, all soldiers or even policemen are "trained to be anti-social". Makes it sound like they go on the rampage after soccer matches.

[Johnny_H02]

Stupid people, of course they are trained to kill people ... as with all soldiers, I doubt they are psycopaths hell bent on causing havoc with people in everyday life.

Infact I know someone who has a family friend ( whom I havent met ) who is supposedly in JTF and i was told hes just a regular family man.

They might need a new installation, but playing the " they are deadly and need more discipline" seems stupid to me.

[Alphonse]

THEY KILL, they aren't anti-social.

What the **** kind of general is that dumbass?

****ing peacekeepers.


They act as if the JTF2 guys are some sort of uncontrollable weapon.

Liberals can be so stupid, it's sad.

[Johnny_H02]

THEY KILL, they aren't anti-social.

What the **** kind of general is that dumbass?

****ing peacekeepers.


They act as if the JTF2 guys are some sort of uncontrollable weapon.

Liberals can be so stupid, it's sad.
Well its a TORY who is concerned, the liberal candidate had this to say

"I would be very proud to represent men and women of that calibre in the riding," Liberal hopeful Isabel Metcalfe said. "

That is unless we didnt read the same article?

[TheBelgian]

Weird that part about JTF2 trying to steal land. you'd figure canada of all countries has enough land to house her units and train them to heart's desire. And who whines about low flying helicopters and gunfights!? i'd be sitting on my roof in a lawn chair with a bag of popcorn, enjoying the show!

[Alphonse]

Well its a TORY who is concerned, the liberal candidate had this to say

"I would be very proud to represent men and women of that calibre in the riding," Liberal hopeful Isabel Metcalfe said. "

That is unless we didnt read the same article?

I was talking about liberals in general.

[Kingswat]

I was talking about liberals in general.

your an idiot.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Look I don't want to be rude here but both you guys need to calm down about this.

The issue here isn't that JTF2 are trained to kill people and are therefore antisocial. Which really is a stupid statement I don't believe.

The issue at hand is that Gordon who is the MP for that riding is echoing the opinions of some of his constituents. It is no secret either in the military or on civie street in that area that JTF2 has had some problems getting along with the local civies.

I've been by Dyer Hill many times on my way to and from Richmond and yes it is a cramped place. And I know more than a few people who live there who would like them to move. Its not about them not liking the military, its about them wanting some quiet and not wanting to be pressured to sell their land off.

We have to remember that Dyer Hill was never intended to be used by the JTF2 when it was first constructed. It was a RCMP SERT training facility. So moving the unit to a larger area where there aren't civies living at your doorstep seems a logical conclusion.

All I'm trying to say here is I'm sure that people living in the area feel this way and the MP there is doing what MP's are supposed to do, represent their constituents and offer realistic solutions to problems.

[Frostythesnowman]

I was talking about liberals in general.

Are you some kind of moron? I fail to see how the liberals in general are a problem in this situation.

I believe that the JTF-2 should stay off of military bases PERIOD. This idiot conservative and ex-general have to realize that placing such a unit on a military base exposes them to outsiders, and the posibility of security breaches will go through the roof.
Also, the JTF-2 has little oversight and if placed on a military base, they will be under the command of the base co and xo, which means that the unit will lose it's flexibility and will be wrapped up in the same bureacratic bs that the forces are caught up in. Take a look at other counter-terrorist units and their locations. The SAS have their own base in Hereford or wherever they moved to, SEAL Team SHH is located in Dam Neck Virginia, off the naval base, and the Delta unit is located in a secluded area of Fort Bragg, away from prying eyes and guarded by ex-special forces. As one can see, the need for security is high, particularly for Spec-Ops/Anti-Terrorist units.
It seems to me that Dwyer Hill is a good location for the unit, because it is close to Ottawa, and it is a direct way to Petawa as well. Besides, no matter where they move it to, there are always going to be civilians complaining. There are thousands of stories of civilians all over the world complaining about spec ops units doing training and exercises on their property and making enough noise to wake the dead. This is no dif't than people complaining about airplanes flying or landing near their houses, in other words they should get over it.

[Anthony91]

They act as if the JTF2 guys are some sort of uncontrollable weapon.



Sort of like the SPARTANS in Halo

[Resevoir Hogs]

Are you some kind of moron? I fail to see how the liberals in general are a problem in this situation.

I believe that the JTF-2 should stay off of military bases PERIOD. This idiot conservative and ex-general have to realize that placing such a unit on a military base exposes them to outsiders, and the posibility of security breaches will go through the roof.
Also, the JTF-2 has little oversight and if placed on a military base, they will be under the command of the base co and xo, which means that the unit will lose it's flexibility and will be wrapped up in the same bureacratic bs that the forces are caught up in. Take a look at other counter-terrorist units and their locations. The SAS have their own base in Hereford or wherever they moved to, SEAL Team SHH is located in Dam Neck Virginia, off the naval base, and the Delta unit is located in a secluded area of Fort Bragg, away from prying eyes and guarded by ex-special forces. As one can see, the need for security is high, particularly for Spec-Ops/Anti-Terrorist units.
It seems to me that Dwyer Hill is a good location for the unit, because it is close to Ottawa, and it is a direct way to Petawa as well. Besides, no matter where they move it to, there are always going to be civilians complaining. There are thousands of stories of civilians all over the world complaining about spec ops units doing training and exercises on their property and making enough noise to wake the dead. This is no dif't than people complaining about airplanes flying or landing near their houses, in other words they should get over it.

Let's not start a liberal/conservative namecalling session here. The man is voicing the complaints of his constituents and offering viable alternatives, enough said.

You say that if JTF2 were based in Petawawa "they will be under the command of the base co and xo."
So the Delta force located in a secluded area on Ft.Bragg, are they under the command of the base CO and XO?

It isn't the same as living next door to an airport because in most places in the western world if an airport wishes to expand closer to a residential area it has to cover the costs of replacing the windows of those houses with the soundproof ones used at the airport. Dyer hill and the DND has no such obligation. Also Dyer Hill is located actually accross the street from homes. I suggest you try living in those conditions for a extended period of time and see if you can "just get over it." Sure you could just hypothetically say it would be cool and a show. But frankly most people enjoy having uninterupted sleep. The residents there lived there long before Dyer Hill was a training facility and have every right to complain. As I said before the facility was never initially intended to be used by JTF2. It was a RCMP training facility. Moving it to rockcliffe where they will be far away from civilian residents (instead of across the street) would make perfect sense. In rockcliffe they would also have the ability to expand their training facilities without buying people's personal property.

[ed316]

Anti-social or not they are needed. Summarize them right here. David Rudd, with the Canadian Institute of Strategic Studies, told CBC News the soldiers of JTF2 are not trained to take and hold ground. "What they do is infiltrate into dangerous areas behind enemy lines, look for key targets and take them out. They don't go out to arrest people. They don't go out there to hand out food parcels. They go out to kill targets."

[rjbhutton]

I agree with the statement by other posters that the comments about SOF being "anti-social" is ridiculous. Sending them to some remote location and having "tighter discipline" also seems to be crazy given that these are some of the best trained and disciplined forces in the world. One of the issues here is that the soldiers do need to be very social in order to achieve their mission, and they need to maintain their compassion for other people. Moving them into the woods and making them recluses will not accomplish this. They need to be in a community where they can have a family life, if they choose, and they are part of a community for which they are willing to fight and die. This seems to be an issue of community relations. Maybe they do need a bigger playing field and have areas where they can do their low flying without bugging the locals... but they still need a community to live in... I would point to Hereford as an example, but never having lived in or near Hereford, I will leave the examples to the BTDTs... Merry Christmas All!!

[Resevoir Hogs]

Rockcliffe seems to me to be the best alternative. They are still close enough to Ottawa, in fact within Ottawa, to not be secluded and ostracised. But at the same time they would not be across the street from civilian homes and have the space they need to train and expand. Also Rockcliffe is close to the river so they could more easily practice their boat drills.

If any of you have actually been to Dyer Hill or Richmond you'd see what I'm talking about. It's very close quarters there, and it is evident it was never intended to be a military special forces facility.

[Jimmy C]

Has Gordon O'Connor lost it? He was a member of the forces too at one time. What a low blow to the members of JTF-2 and their families to describe them as being anti-social. I really hope that he does not get elected in his riding.

[Kingswat]

Look I don't want to be rude here but both you guys need to calm down about this.

The issue here isn't that JTF2 are trained to kill people and are therefore antisocial. Which really is a stupid statement I don't believe.

The issue at hand is that Gordon who is the MP for that riding is echoing the opinions of some of his constituents. It is no secret either in the military or on civie street in that area that JTF2 has had some problems getting along with the local civies.

I've been by Dyer Hill many times on my way to and from Richmond and yes it is a cramped place. And I know more than a few people who live there who would like them to move. Its not about them not liking the military, its about them wanting some quiet and not wanting to be pressured to sell their land off.

We have to remember that Dyer Hill was never intended to be used by the JTF2 when it was first constructed. It was a RCMP SERT training facility. So moving the unit to a larger area where there aren't civies living at your doorstep seems a logical conclusion.

All I'm trying to say here is I'm sure that people living in the area feel this way and the MP there is doing what MP's are supposed to do, represent their constituents and offer realistic solutions to problems.



Well, the civilians are all big boys and girls, they can pack up at anytime and move.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Well, the civilians are all big boys and girls, they can pack up at anytime and move.

Move from homes they have lived in for decades? Homes some of them own from their parents before them. Be realistic. The are more than a few hundred families living in that community.

It's also a farming community and that kind of land is not something you come by so easily.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Another good reason for moving the unit away from Dyer Hill is that the base being in such close proximity to the residential and commercial areas means that you can stand off base and still see a lot of what is going on inside the secure area. This is no secret if you just drive by the base.

Having a training facility that is not across the street from civieland would mean that training can be conducted with more security in mind. Because passers by will no longer be able to see onto the base from off of it.

When the unit was first formed it was tasked with only anti-terrorism. Since then its roles have expanded to include unconventional warfare, and basically the roles a special forces unit like the SAS would undertake. Now we are talking about increasing its size.

There ISN'T land to expand the training facility unless the government wants to evict farmers and residents. So moving to a larger facility would make sense.

Remember this isn't just some MP saying this. Defence officials higher up ARE looking into these alternatives. It's a good idea to move to Rockcliffe.

[Yeoman]

actually hogs you can't see much of the actual base, just the garrison area. and there ain't much that goes on in there. I've been inside that base before on a couple of occasions. and trust me, all the actual serious stuff, don't happen in the garrison area that you can see.
Greg

[Resevoir Hogs]

actually hogs you can't see much of the actual base, just the garrison area. and there ain't much that goes on in there. I've been inside that base before on a couple of occasions. and trust me, all the actual serious stuff, don't happen in the garrison area that you can see.
Greg

I wasn't suggesting that you can see training. They have taken that into consideration of course. But the fact still remains that you can see a lot of the base through the fence from the street. Not just the garrison. I drive by it all the time to Richmond.

All I'm saying is that with a larger area between civie land and the base the unit would have more room to work in. Since they want to expand the unit, moving to Rockcliffe seems logical. I mean keeping Dyer Hill since it does have facilities already built would make sense as well. But taking over more land in other areas of Ottawa, instead of just simply expanding Dyer Hill would make more sense.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Actually JTF-2 operators can be extremely 'social' when you crack open a few bottles of Canadian Club in their midst. Not their prefered tipple but needs must.

[Resevoir Hogs]

What I would like to know is how many incidents there have been of intimidation against civies to give up their land. Whether it is true or not and if so whether it was a policy or just the actions of a few.

In my time in the forces, and as a resident of Ottawa I've heard many such stories. But of course there is no way for me to determine which are urban myths or actual fact.

If the unit has been experiencing such problems with locals then there needs to be a change made, because that is not how the CF needs to represent itself to Canadians.

[Resevoir Hogs]

This story reminds me of the residents who live just outside the fence of Connaught Ranges in Kanata. There have been complaints before about machine gun fire and para flares and such.

The difference though is that those homes were constructed a few years ago with the full knowledge that the land was right beside a army range.

In Dyer Hill that community was there LONG before JTF2 was. And complaints from them have more substance for that reason.

[Chairborne_Ranger]

Hey I'm just happy that some of our soldiers are actually considered 'dangerous'. Anything to keep 'em away from that boy scout peacekeeper image. Wonder how the CBC would portray this though? "Tonight on CBC, a secret government base training men to FIRE GUNS, is your tax money being used to train murderers?"

[AlexNenadic]

Hey I'm just happy that some of our soldiers are actually considered 'dangerous'. Anything to keep 'em away from that boy scout peacekeeper image.

Second that.

[EvanL]

I don't think the old base in Rockliffe would be a good alternative for Dwyer Hill. I mean its pretty tight quarters there too. Theres plenty of places out here in Orleans/Cumberland where they could set up a new base no problem. We have plenty of open land out here for the taking.
And no one out here would complain about having them out here either. Its a big military area out here.

[Yeoman]

yeah I don't know where I was going with my earlier statement. but anyways; the point brought up; why not bring them to pet?
simple; there's too many damn units here already.
there's two infantry battalions, artillery, engineers, armoured, general service, mp, field amb, sigs sqn, and a helo sqn (though I'm sure I missed something). as well, there's going to be ANOTHER battalion here soon (csor incase you don't know) so it's going to be a very crowded base as it is. to try and throw what would basically be two more battalions into pet? feh fah good luck on that. training grounds are already packed tight as it is.
Greg

[Major Maxillary]

this lost all seriousness for me when I saw "Canada."

Right, Canadian army is so "Anti-social" that they need to be isolated from the citizenry. Uh-huh.


Come on, from the canadians I've met and known in my life, the Canadian Army has got to be the most polite army in the Americas.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Yea besides JTF2 already has access to Petawawa for training when they want. No need to base them out of there. Hell my unit can get there very easily for a weekend. It's only about an hours drive to pet on bus. But if the secret squirels take the griffons well I'm sure they'd get there faster.

[EvanL]

Yea besides JTF2 already has access to Petawawa for training when they want. No need to base them out of there. Hell my unit can get there very easily for a weekend. It's only about an hours drive to pet on bus. But if the secret squirels take the griffons well I'm sure they'd get there faster.
Not if your mom was on it!!
haaaaahaaaaa merry christmas