Sukhoi's "culbit" in midair

[cepera]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8033056330156706886&q=su-30MKI

[L()Csta]

Thanks Cepera! This is actually a "Double Culbit" as 2 flips are performed ;)
Perhaps the coolest aerobatic maneuver to date for a combat jet to perfrom.
Obviously Thrust vectoring is required to complete these manuevers as shown.

Here are a couple other "Culbit maneuvers......

http://x.flurl.com/2005/Dec/26/26059.jpg (http://www.flurl.com/uploaded/Su35_perfroming_Culbit_maneuver_26059.html)
Su-35 performing a single "Culbit" or backflip maneuver

http://x.flurl.com/2005/Dec/26/26061.jpg (http://www.flurl.com/uploaded/Su37_performing_double_Culbit_maneuver_26061.html)
Su-37 performing High-altitude double "Culbit"

http://x.flurl.com/2005/Dec/26/26067.jpg (http://www.flurl.com/uploaded/Su30_perfroming_double_culbit_with_a_twist_26067.html)
Su-30MK performing a CRAZY low-alt. double "Culbit" during Thursday's perfromance of MAKS 2005.
Check out the twist he puts on at the end. Also note the altitude, approx 3000m or less!!!

http://x.flurl.com/2005/Dec/26/26068.jpg (http://www.flurl.com/uploaded/MIG29OVT_performing_double_culbit_at_MAKS_2005_26068.html)
MIG-29OVT performing a double "Culbit" maneuver during Thursday's flight at MAKS 2005. (Pay no attention to the drunk announcer's, this was obviously not "the 1st time in the world!" this plane had done this. :P)

http://x.flurl.com/2005/Dec/26/26054.jpg (http://www.flurl.com/uploaded/MIG29OVT_promo_for_MAKS_2005_26054.html)
MIG-29OVT MAKS 2005 Promo video (this has a few views of the MIG performing a "Double Culbit", including a nice shot from a static mount camera fitted to the plane showing it tumble through the air)
Also check out the 130+ degree "Super Cobra" he performs.

Just don't try these types of things to low or you're gonna have problems :(
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/7625/a13fe.jpg

[StirCrazy]

thats the sickest maneuver i have ever seen!!

[StirCrazy]

with a twist too!!!

[Johnny_H02]

Simply incredible, are any US aircraft capable of this ?

Or do they just not bother, showing it off like Ive seen in a few Mig or Su videos?

[Peng78]

I think the only fighter that is nearly capable to do that is the F18 Hornet. But not really that extreme. What I can remember when the first Cobra maneuvers were show was that the plane design is important. So, the arrangement is in the f18 very similar to the fulcrums and flankers.

But what about the eurofighter? Isnt it also praised for ist tremendous maneuver capability or is it just lies?

[OMON]

Russian planes own american planes in that stuff ^^

[nagant_m44]

i think only the f22 can do that, since thrust vectoring is needed for these maneuvers.

[AlexNenadic]

Russian planes own american planes in that stuff ^^

Too bad that stuff has no relevance in combat.

[SGMGSG9]

OMON, all do respect those aerobatics are impressive & quit a spectacle @ airshows. But when it comes to aerial combat, all the twisting & turns in the world wont get you out of sh%t, when you've been engaged by an American missile from just out side of visual range.(50 miles) B) "Who dog fights that close anymore anyways?"

[nagant_m44]

OMON, all do respect those aerobatics are impressive & quit a spectacle @ airshows. But when it comes to aerial combat, all the twisting & turns in the world wont get you out of sh%t, when you've been engaged by an American missile from just out side of visual range.(50 miles) B) "Who dog fights that close anymore anyways?"

US isnt the only country with BVR missiles

[SGMGSG9]

Nagant M44, your correct sir. All though if such a weapon system where deployed against us. It would be jammed, then answered with a resounding punch in the nose by a aircraft you never ever saw. (Stealth Technology Baby - You have to see your target before you throw a punch.)

[nagant_m44]

Nagant M44, your correct sir. All though if such a weapon system where deployed against us. It would be jammed, then answered with a resounding punch in the nose by a aircraft you never ever saw. (Stealth Technology Baby - You have to see your target before you throw a punch.)

Where would these stealth aircraft come from? I dont think any F22s are deployed in Europe at the moment.

[CyberSpec]

OMON, all do respect those aerobatics are impressive & quit a spectacle @ airshows. But when it comes to aerial combat, all the twisting & turns in the world wont get you out of sh%t, when you've been engaged by an American missile from just out side of visual range.(50 miles) B) "Who dog fights that close anymore anyways?"

Claiming that this sort of manouverability has no combat application is to put it mildly a JOKE!.

I seem to remember a time when the US had the advantage (F-16/15 vs the MIG 23) that manouverability was all important.

If that's the case why bother with the F-22. Bring back the F-104 Starfighter armed with BVR missiles and save yourselves a ton of money.

[Crewdog]

It is always cool as hell to see any type of aircraft do tricks like that! Does anyons know how much altitude is lost during this manuever?

[SGMGSG9]

CyberSpec, Super maneuverability has it's place when you're trying to get the "bead" off your butt or get a angle on a pursuer for tone. But you've got to look @ it through the modern missiles eyes. To a radar (passive or active), infer-red, or a television Guided missile, all that jinking in a relatively small space, is nothing to a missile closing @ Mach 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10. To the missile your just a wobbling ball of junk ripe for the picking.

[Lamer]

pop a few flares and the allmighty missile will just stray away- I agree manuevering is not equaly important today as it was before, but dogfighting will never "die".

missiles can allways be fooled (with every new tehnology new counter-tech comes) but a skilled pilot...

and missile coming faster (mach10) has just a longer curve making it even more easy to avoid it (sharp curve and down she goes- usuallyp-))

[Atrox]

CyberSpec, Super maneuverability has it's place when you're trying to get the "bead" off your butt or get a angle on a pursuer for tone. But you've got to look @ it through the modern missiles eyes. To a radar (passive or active), infer-red, or a television Guided missile, all that jinking in a relatively small space, is nothing to a missile closing @ Mach 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10. To the missile your just a wobbling ball of junk ripe for the picking.

Name me one AA missile capable of speeds of Mach 3 or greater. Just one.

And then I'd like you to go pale a bit. Out of the 5 I recall, three are Russian designs, and the AIM-132 isn't all that common. I'd also point you to certain evaluations of the AA-11 Archer, which was found to be superior to the AIM-9L in most respects.

[Minjin]

All this "that's useless in combat" crap is just ridiculous. Are the Russians at war with the US? Then who the hell cares. They are airshow videos. American planes to cool stuff at airshows too, but you guys don't jump down their throats.

Can't some of the bloody armchair generals just sit back and enjoy a good show once in a while?

[SGMGSG9]

Atrox, it was mainly "artistic flare" to grab the reader attention, namely CyberSpec. But thanks for keeping facts, fact. You asked me to name "JUST ONE" missile capable of greater than Mach 3.0 or better well here go's: (and there not even ours, Hehehehehe....)

1. RUSSIAN - R-77 (NATO AA-12 ADDER) - Mach 5.0

2. FRENCH - Super 530D - Mach 4.5
This missile was from a French program back in the late 80's early 90's (Don't you think things have spead up a little sense then? B)

Minjin, your right no ones @ war here. It's just that OMON's comment rubbed me the wrong way. (Russian Pride & stuff, it felt cold warish) And, I countered his comment with a little United States Air Power Pride. And before the preaching starts, I know, I know! TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT. But, fact still remains the Russians sale that stuff (aircraft & equipment) all over the world, sooner or later will face it anyways. FLAME OUT !!!!!!! (NO PUN-INTENDED) B)

[wolfrider]

Yea, yea. Thats useless... thats why americans implemented this in Raptor.

[CyberSpec]

SGMGSG9,

a little boost for your patriotism from me (in the spirit of the season):

despite my bias for Russian hardware, I'm still realistic enough to say that the USAF is the best all round airforce in the world by far.

And as far as naval aviation goes, no one comes even close.

[Atrox]

Atrox, it was mainly "artistic flare" to grab the reader attention, namely CyberSpec. But thanks for keeping facts, fact. You asked me to name "JUST ONE" missile capable of greater than Mach 3.0 or better well here go's: (and there not even ours, Hehehehehe....)

The Mach 10 part was just too hyperbolic for me, given that a missile that fast would probably explode due to air friction. I admit, I was myself a bit behind the times; I had most missiles pegged around Mach 2.5-3.0, since you don't really need anything more. I think only the Russians still have operational aircraft that manage more than Mach 3.

[QRO?]

All this "that's useless in combat" crap is just ridiculous.That's correct, because AFAIK "culbit" and "cobra" manouvres have never been attempted in combat and there isn't much public information about them even been tested in truely high realism exercises (like Cope India runs between F-15C and Su-30MKI). If there is any hard evidence about the likely combat effectivenes of those manouvres, only VVS/PVO has it and they aren't sharing it publicly.

However, what is known from computer simulations and theoretical work on missile kinetics and modern combat manouvres, there is obviously a significant advantage in missile evasion from high manouverability, including vector changes that reduce the energy state. One situation where this has applicability is exactly in long range BVR shots when the incoming missile is relying on inertial quidance or low time resolution command link guidance. Any rapid vector change can put the defending target aircraft out of the missile's engagement envelope.

One could argue that doing an energy eating manouver isn't a good choice for future evasion prospects from the same missile or other closer range shots, but OTOH it may present the quickest opportunity to return fire, which in turn, serves as a good move to protect against repeat shots from the initial attacker when it gets a LOSE cue for the first missile.

So in summary, while those airshow manouvres have very limited applicability (but arguably some) to actual combat situations, the fact that they can be performed does showcase the superior manouverability which then can be exploited with more relevant tactics. After all, you can't expect them to fire missiles or perform actual combat flying in an airshow (I know, some warbird shows with propeller driven aircraft do exactly that, but not with live ammo).

[L()Csta]

The only US aircraft that comes close to these maneuvers is the F-22. I have never seen any footage of it doing anything below 20-30,000 feet, and never seen any 22's performing close to what is seen in these videos.
There is more to appreciate about these maneuvers than just the spins.... Think about the stress on the airframe, maintaining control at stall speeds, effects of a seemingly stationary target to the "doppler" radar.
It is true that the chance of entering a WVR "dogfight" in today's war scenerio's is very unlikely, but to say that these are just airshow tricks is a bit ignorant.
Imagine having lock and waiting for range on a BVR shot against one of these, when he breaks your lock from beaming and at the same time drops several thousand meters and changes direction. If you or your AWACS can't find him again, you gonna have problems.
It is not a "get out of jail free" card, but I would be happy to have my aircraft capable of these types of maneuvers.

[Dakota435]

I agree that these maneuvers are of limited use in air combat. With an opponent flying at just under mach, getting yourself into such a low energy state would be suicidal. What they do demonstrate however is the superb engineering that gives the aircraft amazingly gentle low speed behaviour and the ability of the engines to operate with all that inlet airflow disruption without stall/surge.

[Jim Warford]

Great vids...thanks.

[CRTS27]

Maneuvrability is Always importan. Even today with all the electronics.
The Maneuvrability as demonstrated on Airshows not!
The maneuvers the Sukhoi performs at those videos are at very low speeds.
To low to survive in a dogfight!
Speed equals energy for vertikal maneuvers and at low speeds you have no energy left. Ergo the enemy get your ass!

[JoaMei]

The time for dogfights is over, everything that isnt killed beyond visual range can be killed with a modern short range missile even if it is behind the Aircraft that fires the Missile.

[He219]

The time for dogfights is over, everything that isnt killed beyond visual range can be killed with a modern short range missile even if it is behind the Aircraft that fires the Missile.

Tell that to the guys at Fallon.
;)


The Phoenix was one of the best stand-off weapons, yet it was taken out of service along with the Tomcats that carried them.

IFF requires more and more visual confirmation, thus dog-fighting skills are always needed.

The off-boresight systems (JHMCS/AIM-9X) are a means of circumventing Russian fighter maneuverability, as you wrote. Howerver, it was the Soviets that developed this technology in the first place and best demonstrated by former NVA Mig-29s dogfighting with us over the Med in the late 90's ..



i think only the f22 can do that, since thrust vectoring is needed for these maneuvers.
I think the Raptor only has 2D thrust vectoring.

[wholagun]

curious how many g's the pilot is pulling or the type of strain this is putting on his body. This manovure must send his dials spinning like crazy. Pretty cool.

[L()Csta]

The G's are not so extreme when these maneuvers are done correctly. I read when pilots were 1st experimenting with the "Cobra" they lost at least 1 pliot due to a over-g induced black out which he never recovered from and crashed. Unless you are moving within the correct speed parameters when the maneuver is initiated (approximately 250-350kph) the aircraft will not perform these properly (if too slow) just bring the aircraft to a stall, or (if too fast) rapidly pitch up with out breaking the AOA limiter and inducing a max-G maneuver, that is sure to drain your brain.
The thing that is probably the hardest to get used to in these maneuvers is the rapid changes from + to - g-loads. Speaking from experience this can be very uncomfortable.

[Minjin]

Wow, I get pissy and a few smart posts show up instead of rah rah flag waving. Thanks guys, now its a thread worth reading past the first post.