Question

[Ding Chavez]

when law enforcement swat teams conduct a dynamic entry on a particuliar location they usually announce their presence by yelling something like STATE POLICE! GET DOWN ON THE GROUND!

what i'm wondering is what do counterterrorist units yell if anything when they're about to make their entry into a particuliar location?

if anyone can shed some light on this, please do.

[FallenAngel]

US Law Enforcement Officers (ALL of them) are required by law to announce their presence and status as a peace officer. If they DON'T, it's a big, giant problem. THat's what happened at Ruby Ridge. Long story short...ATF wanted to serve a warrent for large amounts of weapons at this rural cabin. These armed agents approached this dude cabin unnanounced. The man was naturally fearful of these guys coming to his house with guns his youngest son saw in the woods. He shot first, protecting his family. ATF shot back....thinking this guy was a nut job. anyways, they had this big ass standoff where they ended up killing the guy's wife, his youngest son (was like 8 I think) and his oldest son too I think (around 18 or something). Three or Four ATF agents also lost their lives. In the end, the guy was arrested but I think he was released because the ATF never announced their status.

....oh and those weapons he was suspected of having. He did have all of them. ALL legally purchased firearms. ALL legal to own. and he had a gun-selling liscense.

A simple F*ck up at the top cost people's lives.




As for Spec. Ops or anyone other combatant. I do not believe there is an international law requiring it. I think they do it often to avoid friendly fire and accidental civilians getting in the way.

[PSYWAR1-0]

different mission, different rules, even with the same training, tactics and equipment its not the same. The average police raid is all about saving someone or preserving evidence. A CT op might or might not want anything to be left at the end LOL.

[JiJoMacLE45]

When serving a warrant at a residence or dwelling, a police officer has to identify himself in accordance with the 4th Amendment. When it goes tactical, this is usually a knock on the door and someone yelling police a split second before a ram takes your door in. Now there are special warrants, we call them no-knock warrants, that are issued in extreme circumstances where the risk factor is high and announcing that you are the police could aggrivate the situation and cause an increase in the threat level. These are pretty rare and there has been some state level judiciary cases attempting to outlaw no-knocks on grounds that they are unconstitutional.

What you yell once your inside depends on the situation, but you want to be yelling something for a couple of reasons. With all the loud noises, men in black, and commotion going on, the yelling just adds to the confusion and intimidation you want to cause to gain control of the situation as quick as possible. You want to let any non-hostiles inside know they better get their heads down. You want to let any hostiles know they better get their heads down too. Third, CYA, if worse does come to worse and you end up having to use deadly force in a tactical entry situation, anyone within earshot will be able to hear you yell warnings prior to having to pull the trigger. That way when the ACLU comes knocking at your door you have some defense when Al Sharpton starts blaming you for a cold blooded murder of a shermed up, Tec-9 toting, HT.

Not that anyone inside is going to be able to hear you b/c they will be deaf
from the crash that went off right in front of them. On our CMTT, we videotape every entry situation just for this purpose.

When you get to SOF, there rules of engagement are a bit different.

FA, I like you dude, but you're a tad bit off on your Ruby Ridge facts. The warrant was for making and possessing an unregistered firearm(sawed off shotgun, 2 of which he sold to a UC ATF agent). He was arrested, but after posting bond failed to show for his trial and an arrest warrant was issued. Since it was a federal warrant, it fell to the US Marshal's to serve it. For nearly a year, attempts were made to talk the SF vet off his fortress style plateau. It was determined through contact with the Weaver family and neighbors that simply walking up to the house and attempting to serve the warrant would turn out poorly. Weaver has been quoted as saying that if federal agents showed up at his door 'I'd take some with me'. The Marshal's bought a plot of land next to the Weaver cabin to do some recon on the family. One morning, four Marshal's were at the edge of the Weaver property keeping tabs on things when the situation went bad. Randy Weaver, his son Sammy, and friend Kevin Harris were out as well. When one of the Weaver's dogs caught a whiff of the Marshal's it took off towards their position. Believing, the dog was attacking him, one of the Marshal's shot and killed the dog. This touched off an exchange of fire that killed Sammy and Deputy Bill Degan. Weaver and Harris returned to the cabin and the seige began. Vicki Weaver, Randy's wife was killed later in the seige. After Randy, Kevin, and a female left the residence, firing into the woods surrounding the cabin, they were retreating into the cabin when an FBI HRT sniper fired a shot at Harris as he was heading through the door, the round missed Harris and hit Vicki Weaver as she held the door open. The reason Weaver got off was because the prosecution tried making a huge conspiracy case against family, instead of a simple murder rap for the killing of Degan. They loaded their case with so much BS that is would have been comical had three people not lost their lives because of two sawed off shotguns.

[RealUltimatePower]

Yea makes sense for a police forces to announce presence. But just seems common sense that Navy SEALS wouldn't for example have to tell terrorists they are coming in. Especially if they want to surprise them. But for conventional forces an attempt to evacuate non combatants has to be made and asking for the enemy to surrender as well, if the situation allows that is. I think anyways FNG here so...

[OzMan]

They let the explosives attatched to the door do the talking. Then when they get in there, they announce things, but they announce things to each other. No need announcing anything to a dead terrorist.

I heard a little about Ruby Ridge. I don't research domestic "terrorist" acts as much as I do foreign acts. I saw some of the testimony of one of the HRT snipers, and the shooting of the wife was purely accidental. Someone out on the back deck was waving a gun around, and a sniper parallel with the wall of the house couldn't see the glass door which was right next to this guy. And looking through a 16-power scope limits your periferal (sp?) vision, and the guy's wife walked right out the back glass door as the sniper was about to eliminate the threat. The round went right through the glass door and the poor lady's head.

[Mal3]

When SAS burst into the embassy at Princess Gate they shouted "We're the Sweeney and we 'aven't 'ad lunch yet."

Erm, not really, did you believe me? ;)

[Duke]

First, Eagle how can you say Ruby Ridge wasnt a terrorist act??
Second, what I dont understand about Ruby Ridge is how SA Horiuchi shot Vicky Weaver. As a sniper sitting in a hide to gather intel, how could he not factor Vicky Weaver's location as he squeezed the trigger?? Its hard to believe a sniper wasnt counting targets in that house or that he wasnt at the intel briefing, so he had to be aware of her. I mean HRT is the FBI and they crosstrain with Delta. Also, everyone who shoots knows that a bullet hits anything in its path, including a path caused by ricochets. At 200 yards with 308 the round went through a piece of glass, Vicky's jaw and then struck another person Kevin Harris. What was Horiuchi thinking??
That scenario is tough to accept, even though Weaver was a rabid racist, but shooting a mother in the face while she held her 10 month old baby in front of her husband and other child, not in America.

[JiJoMacLE45]

Randy Weaver, Kevin Harris, and Sara Weaver exited the cabin and fired into the woods towards an FBI position. As they were returning to the cabin, Horiuchi drew down on Harris. At the exact instant that he pulled the trigger, Vicki pushed the cabin door open to allow the three to run inside. The bullet smashed through the glass of the door and struck Weaver behind her jaw, exiting her throat, and then striking Harris.

[Chops]

JiJo

I hate to disagree but there were a lot of 22 guys in NI who fired "at the same instant" or "as he moved threateningly toward his jacket".... HRT has it almost word perfect....

rgds

Chops

[JiJoMacLE45]

I hear what you're saying Chops, but you have to take a step back and look at things. Say Vicki Weaver had been standing at the door while Randy and Sara Weaver and Kevin Harris ran their IAD out in the back yard, firing at or towards Lon Horiuchi and his partner's position in the woods at the edge of the clearing. Now Horiuchi has four targets as the the shooters make their way back up onto the porch and into the cabin. Three carrying rifles who have just fired at him and one holding a baby. And he chooses the woman holding the baby? Maybe I'm naive, but I know enough fibbies to know that while they may hire way too many agents who over compensate for a wealth of education with a lack of common sense, they certainly do not hire trigger happy wackos who shoot unarmed mothers because that woman's husband and daughter threw a few rounds at him.

Ask anyone who has spent serious time behind a rifle scope and they will
tell you that head shots are Hollywood. You aim for center mass, that bullet through the eye at one thousand meters is reserved for bad Tom Berenger movies and Carlos Hathcock. They are risky, and while nearly always one hundred percent effective, often times seen as an overstep in the use of force when used in law enforcement. And here is the kicker, had Weaver not fatefully stepped in front of that shot, the trajectory of Horiuchi's hand loaded .308 round would have taken into Kevin Harris's chest, center mass. Vicki Weaver's accidental shooting, was simply that, an accident.

[He219]

Wrong, the FBI changed the rules of engagement at Ruby Ridge. Vicky was seen as the Matriarch and as such became target. Horiuchi, a trained HR Sniper will live with this the rest of his life. Randy lost Vicky and his young son over a sawed-off shotgun.

"At Ruby Ridge, Idaho, the normal, constitutional rules of engagement were changed; the new rules were orders to kill any armed adult male seen on the Weavers’ property. The non-prosecution of Larry Potts is based on a disputed fact: it cannot be proven that Potts approved the order saying FBI agents "can and should" shoot.

Besides choosing to obey an illegal assassination order, Horiuchi lied under oath at Randy Weaver’s trial. Horiuchi claimed that he opened fire on Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris because the two men were threatening to shoot an FBI helicopter. But the trial judge found this testimony so blatantly false that he ordered the charges related to the testimony to be dismissed. (The helicopter was nowhere near where Weaver or Harris could have shot at it.)

Moreover, sniper Horiuchi violated even the illegal rules of engagement. True, he did obey the illegal orders when he shot at Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris, who were outside their cabin carrying guns.

But Horiuchi’s second shot violated even the license to kill rules; the second shot was the one that killed Vicki Weaver, as she was standing in the doorway of her cabin, holding her baby.

The rules prohibited firing a shot if it would endanger any children.
Horiuchi claims that he never saw Vicki Weaver standing in the doorway"

From http://i2i.org/SuptDocs/Waco/rrprosec.htm

-He219

[JiJoMacLE45]

I'm not debating that Horiuchi lied under oath to CYA. But assassination is a pretty strong word. Okay let me let you in on a few law enforcement secrets, He219. There is no such thing as a 'liscense to kill order', receiving authorization for such would imply that there is some lesser form of deadly force 'a liscense to wound' policy, which is absurd. The reason Harris got off for killing Deputy Marshal Bill Degan was b/c the ass of a prosecutor trumped up the charges, against the better judgement of practically everyone involved in the case, so much that there was no way on God's green earth that Harris would have been convicted even in the most pro-law enforcement court. Sara Weaver was not prohibited from being targeted, just seconds before Horiuchi fired, she had been in the backyard with a Ruger Mini-14 firing into the woodline near Horiuchi's position. Horiuchi missed on his first shot as the trio moved onto the porch, he fired his second shot as Harris was entering the house. He did not see Vicki Weaver b/c she did not come into view until she stepped out to open the door to let her family back inside. And Sammy Weaver was unarmed if you call a 5.56mm carbine and a .357 wheel gun unarmed. Try staying away from the biased stories that trump up the federales as murderers and thugs who wanted to stack up a bodycount. Four sniper teams had eyes on of Randy, Sara, and Kevin as they came out of the cabin and opened up into the woods and only two shots were fired by the HRT, in return. If they wanted to kill them all, it would have been done.

[FallenAngel]

Try staying away from the biased stories that trump up the federales as murderers and thugs who wanted to stack up a bodycount...If they wanted to kill them all, it would have been done.

Like at Waco right? (sorry, had to take the shot ;) )

[JiJoMacLE45]

I knew I was kinda leaving myself open for that after I wrote it, no harm though. The FBI did not start the fire at Mount Carmel that consumed the compound, granted their introduction of chemical agents did not help put the flames out either.

Note to self: WTF am I doing defending the friggin FBI, I'm a road dog, I'm don't even like them.

[OzMan]

Duke, I didn't really consider Ruby Ridge a terrorist act because of my historical/personal perspective on terrorism. It's probably just my, "Not in my country" mentality, and that when you hear about terrorism anywhere in the world, you hear about the classics like Princes Gate, or Marseilles, or Mogadishu in '77. If you ask most people anywhere in the world about Ruby Ridge, or Waco, and explain to them what it was (basically just a bunch of wacked up rednecks who were running around with guns), they probably wouldn't consider it "terrorism".

And I don't know of any major "conspiracy theories" against the French government for their "murdering" of the four terrorists who hijacked that plane from Algiers and landed in Marseilles to get full fuel tanks and crash into the Eiffel Tower, or against the British government for their actions at Prince's Gate. In those cases, it was very clearcut what the situation was, who was involved, what they wanted, and who they were threatening to kill. In the cases like Ruby Ridge or Waco, it was just a simple ATF raid that went sour and turned into a massive siege with no clear sides, no real motivation behind it, and really no hostages or anything like that. In the cases of Princes Gate or Marseilles, there was absolutely no doubt that it was terrorism. The motivation behind it was very clear, and the hostages were actually scared for their lives. And they were almost egging on the authorities to come and get them; they wanted their attention.

In Ruby Ridge or Waco, it was just a group of people living on their own, just trying to mind their own business and the poor children at Waco just didn't know any better, and they were taught to believe that Koresh was just a good guy following God's teachings about the approaching armegeddon. They weren't asking for any attention, they didn't really want anyone knowing about their cause, they just wanted to be ready for the predicted future. And one of the principles of terrorism is to get the world's attention, and to say to the people of the world, "Hey, something is wrong here, and if you don't fix it, this person is going to die." And that didn't happen at Ruby Ridge or Waco, until the aftermath and then the nation got involved, blaming the government for the whole thing. Now I'm not going to deny that some mistakes were made, but I mean, it's not all their fault.

Just listen to some of the tapes that were recovered from Waco, where you can here the people inside just minutes before the fire started saying, "Spread it! Get it everywhere!" You can only wonder what they were talking about.

I will admit that at times I can be a little ignorant, just because it scares the hell out of me when I find out that there are actually people that far fetched in my own country. Hearing about books like the Turner Diaries, or things like that and to hear that some people in this country are actually crazy enough to follow that, it just freaks me out.

[EliteWolf]

my question is, what exactly happened at waco, i was to young to understand at the time but im curious...the only thing i know about it is an article i found on the delta force working with the HRT and them shooting any of the people coming out the back of the building..ill get the URL and get back to you with it. :backhand:

[JTFazz]

Law enforcement is not always required to announce their presence before making an entry. If there is a strong case made for imminent danger to law enforcement or that notice will result in the disposal of evidence, a "no-knock" warrant may be obtained and the entry is made without any verbal warning. Once inside, they do announce their presence, but it is after they enter.

No-knock warrants are usually issued by local or state judges and it depends on state law. They are very controversial, especially if you are a member of the ACLU. The ACLU has repeatedly challenged the legality and constitutionality of such warrants.



Otherwise, yes, they are required to announce.

[BiZ]

US Law Enforcement Officers (ALL of them) are required by law to announce their presence and status as a peace officer. If they DON'T, it's a big, giant problem. THat's what happened at Ruby Ridge. Long story short...ATF wanted to serve a warrent for large amounts of weapons at this rural cabin. These armed agents approached this dude cabin unnanounced. The man was naturally fearful of these guys coming to his house with guns his youngest son saw in the woods. He shot first, protecting his family. ATF shot back....thinking this guy was a nut job. anyways, they had this big ass standoff where they ended up killing the guy's wife, his youngest son (was like 8 I think) and his oldest son too I think (around 18 or something). Three or Four ATF agents also lost their lives. In the end, the guy was arrested but I think he was released because the ATF never announced their status.

....oh and those weapons he was suspected of having. He did have all of them. ALL legally purchased firearms. ALL legal to own. and he had a gun-selling liscense.

A simple F*ck up at the top cost people's lives.




As for Spec. Ops or anyone other combatant. I do not believe there is an international law requiring it. I think they do it often to avoid friendly fire and accidental civilians getting in the way.

Hate to bring up an old topic, but since I was looking at a few incidents for research I stumbled upon this thread....

You have your own views/opinions and that's fine, but you should, like the Government Agencies you have a chip against, get your facts right. The BATF were not involved with Ruby Ridge, it was the US Marshalls Service who was there and were shot at starting the entire event.

[Dominique]

Even on no knock warrants the police, sheriff's, DEA, FBI, etc. are still required to announce their pressence, and properly identify themselves as law enforcement officers (patches, badges, etc.).

There have been several court cases lost becuase the residents, and or guests in the target location todl the court they didn't know the guys dressed in tactial gear were cops.

As far as military CT mission go. It would be very stupid to announce to the world. "US Naby SEALs" as you you roll through the doorway. ;)

[Clarsachier]

IS a very interesting question.

It might depend on the situation - if there are known hostages and what data is available concerning weapons involved, locale, ect..

My understanding (if you want to call it that ;) ) is that when counter terrorist operators are taking down an aircraft, room or ect., the tactic
is complete and total surprise along with extreme violence.

If you were a hostage - you wouldn't know what was going on.

Somewhere, there is info and training available for surviving hostage and non hostage, terrorist situations. The fact that this info isn't readily available seems to be a missight on the part of homeland security - IMO.

[Dominique]

The best advise I can give you is to shut up, and stay out of the way. Be the "grey man", and don't rock the boat. If a rescue is attempted, get on the ground an follow the instructions of your rescuers.

[DPGLAW]

US Law Enforcement Officers (ALL of them) are required by law to announce their presence and status as a peace officer. If they DON'T, it's a big, giant problem. THat's what happened at Ruby Ridge. Long story short...ATF wanted to serve a warrent for large amounts of weapons at this rural cabin. These armed agents approached this dude cabin unnanounced. The man was naturally fearful of these guys coming to his house with guns his youngest son saw in the woods. He shot first, protecting his family. ATF shot back....thinking this guy was a nut job. anyways, they had this big ass standoff where they ended up killing the guy's wife, his youngest son (was like 8 I think) and his oldest son too I think (around 18 or something). Three or Four ATF agents also lost their lives. In the end, the guy was arrested but I think he was released because the ATF never announced their status.

....oh and those weapons he was suspected of having. He did have all of them. ALL legally purchased firearms. ALL legal to own. and he had a gun-selling liscense.

A simple F*ck up at the top cost people's lives.




As for Spec. Ops or anyone other combatant. I do not believe there is an international law requiring it. I think they do it often to avoid friendly fire and accidental civilians getting in the way.


I BELIEVE it was Ruby Ridge that I read that a major aprt of the cause of all the shootings there was the change of the ROEs for the HRT team. I also remember that many of the operators on teh HRT team werent happy that the ROEs were essentially, "shoot on sight"....They pride themselves that their purpose in any given situation is to SAVE lives, not take them unless absolutely necessary....From what I saw, that was a very large contributing factor to the deaths/shootings there....If I am wrong about which incident that was, pelase correct me but I thought it was Ruby...

[Radarluv]

Even on no knock warrants the police, sheriff's, DEA, FBI, etc. are still required to announce their pressence, and properly identify themselves as law enforcement officers (patches, badges, etc.).

There have been several court cases lost becuase the residents, and or guests in the target location todl the court they didn't know the guys dressed in tactial gear were cops.

As far as military CT mission go. It would be very stupid to announce to the world. "US Naby SEALs" as you you roll through the doorway. ;)

Dominique:

I am not sure where you are obtaining your frivalous facts but you are sadly mistaken on the requirement to announce the presence of law enforcement officials for all warrants.....

First off I was a SWAT Commander for 11 years and planned, executed and documented in after actions reports close to 1,000 warrants served in conjuction with local, state and federal authorities. I have kicked the door in on child rapists and tax evaders that didnt want to go with the IRS agents. Pretty much I have personally faced about every known type of warrant.

Some of these were knock and announces....some of them I simply called into the residence after setting up a perimeter and asked them to come out and they did.....circumstances dictact this tactic.....However the MAJORITY of the warrants I served were considered extremely high-risk involving convicted cop killers, rapists and three strike losers. We used a threat matrix to determine the level of force (ie flashbangs, rams, explosive entry) to dirt dive the warrant...this also included whether it would be a covert, tactical approach with a no-knock policy or a overt phone call...I wont get into how we determined which protocol to use do to OPSEC. If it was to be a No-knock, the magistrate or judge would be advised of this and it wont be notated in the actual execution warrant for service. Again, if you arent in law enforcement you dont need to know details on why it would be overt vs. covert but there are a plethora of reasons.

Each state has the authority to govern how warrants are served and even some counties....it has nothing to do with the federal government. I have been sued over a dozen times, some from warrant execution...all were thrown out so fast your head would spin...seems some people also thought we had to ALWAYS announce our presence....they soon learned in court it was wrong.

As for military special operations teams serving warrants in CONTUS...that would not happen due to posse comitatus act of 1878 would negate them from serving direct action missions. They can support federal/state/local authorities (i.e. border issues) but that is it. They would have to have a "1811" federal agent rating to do so...or become a reserve deputy /officer in their home areas and join the local unit...we had several on our team and we were fortunate.

Again not jumping your case just trying to inform one post at a time...and remember this is state to state so if California requires a knock and announce that doesnt mean Tennessee does as well..

Regards,

RADAR

[Dominique]

Radarluv, no offense taken. Let me clarifiy my last statement. Here in the lovely Old Dominion (VA), many of our local law enforcemnt agencies have gotten a case of clold feet, after being sued several times over the way they serve warrants. So, to prevent as many problems as possible, they make sure they announce their presense and identify themselves. It may be only a half a second before the front door comes down, but they still do it.
The only time they wouldn't do it would be in an extremis situation.

Another change that DCJS (it's the state agency responsible for training, standards, and certification of law enforcement agencies and correctional facilities here in VA) recommended was that everyone, be it cops, deputies, prarole and probation, or the damn game wardens, yell "Police".

From the way they explained it during my last in-service was, there have been several cases where people didn;'t speak English and suppoesedly had no idea what "Sheriff's Office", Deputy Sheriff", or Special Agent ment, but they figure everyone knows what "Police" means.

As far as other states, and federal agencies go, I'm sure at some point in time you identified yourself, and let your suspect know what was oing on.

I'm also aware of the posse comitatus and what would be required.

Just out of curiousity,are you a member of CATO? Up until recently, I was a member of V-TAC, SCTOA, NTOA, and US CTOA. If you get the chance, drop me a PM.

[Radarluv]

Radarluv, no offense taken. Let me clarifiy my last statement. Here in the lovely Old Dominion (VA), many of our local law enforcemnt agencies have gotten a case of clold feet, after being sued several times over the way they serve warrants. So, to prevent as many problems as possible, they make sure they announce their presense and identify themselves. It may be only a half a second before the front door comes down, but they still do it.
The only time they wouldn't do it would be in an extremis situation.

Another change that DCJS (it's the state agency responsible for training, standards, and certification of law enforcement agencies and correctional facilities here in VA) recommended was that everyone, be it cops, deputies, prarole and probation, or the damn game wardens, yell "Police".

From the way they explained it during my last in-service was, there have been several cases where people didn;'t speak English and suppoesedly had no idea what "Sheriff's Office", Deputy Sheriff", or Special Agent ment, but they figure everyone knows what "Police" means.

As far as other states, and federal agencies go, I'm sure at some point in time you identified yourself, and let your suspect know what was oing on.

I'm also aware of the posse comitatus and what would be required.

Just out of curiousity,are you a member of CATO? Up until recently, I was a member of V-TAC, SCTOA, NTOA, and US CTOA. If you get the chance, drop me a PM.

Hey Dominique...great post and PM enroute shortly.....I wasnt aware you were also LEO... :P

I am also very aware of VTAC.....I was in TN and my unit actually stated TTPPA (Tennessee Tactical Police and Paramedics Association) we also assisted Steve B. in setting up VTAC....I am sure you know the rest of the last name....take care mate.

RADAR

[Dominique]

Steve is a friend of mine, and another buddy of mine keeps his website up. Steve's a good guy and has helped me out with equipment and training issues several times. Did you guys happen to know he's got his own mag out now? Tactical Equipment Review.

[OMEGA7]

Steve is a friend of mine, and another buddy of mine keeps his website up. Steve's a good guy and has helped me out with equipment and training issues several times. Did you guys happen to know he's got his own mag out now? Tactical Equipment Review.

Please show me the your friend has producing web site ,