Russia-Ukraine gas row heats up

[cepera]

Russia-Ukraine gas row heats up

The proposed price rises have roused passions in Ukraine
Ukraine is sending its energy minister to Russia to try to resolve a worsening dispute over gas prices, days before a deadline to agree new terms expires.
This follows phone contacts between the two countries' leaders on Tuesday.

Russia's energy minister earlier said no new proposals would be put forward. It wants Ukraine to pay market rates and is seeking a huge gas price rise.

Gas monopoly Gazprom has threatened to cut Ukraine's supplies altogether if new terms are not agreed by 1 January.

The Russian and Ukrainian president discussed the stand-off in a telephone conversation on Tuesday and it was later announced Ukraine's Energy Minister Ivan Plachkov would have new talks in Moscow on Wednesday.

Trying to revise the treaty would be fatal

Russian Defence Minister
Sergei Ivanov

Russia wants to more than quadruple the price of supplies to the Ukrainian market, to between $220 and $230 per 1,000 cubic metres.

Ukraine says it is happy to pay market rates, but wants price increases to be phased in gradually over several years.

'Theft'

"Russia has already made all its proposals. They are included in drafts agreements and contracts, and there will be no other proposals from Russia," Industry and Energy Minister Viktor Khristenko said.

Gazprom on Tuesday denied reports of a deal to raise prices gradually and also dismissed a claim by Ukraine to be legally entitled to take 15% of Russian gas transiting western Europe as payment for pipeline use.

"This irresponsible and legally ignorant announcement is aimed at escalating tension in Russian-Ukrainian relations and undermines Europe's trust in Ukraine as a transit country," a Gazprom statement said.

"All of Ukraine's actions on siphoning off gas after January 1, 2006 will be regarded as... theft," said Gazprom spokesman Sergei Kupriyanov.

Parallel rise?

Moscow also warned Kiev against any attempt to link the gas price row to rents charged for Russian naval use of Ukrainian port facilities in the Black Sea.

Some Ukrainian officials have suggested such a move as the gas row intensified.

But Russia's defence minister warned that any such increase could have serious consequences.

"The agreement on the Black Sea fleet base is one part of a bilateral treaty, the second part of which contains recognition of mutual borders," Sergei Ivanov said.

"Trying to revise the treaty would be fatal."

[rhino]

wtf? no way anything is going to be resolved by 1st Jan, so where is this going? who is going to blink first?

[UkrainianAmerican]

Most likely a compromise. IF the price is quadrupled, the pipeline rent increase is going to be at least as dramatic (thus making it worse for both sides). THerefor some sort of a compromise (like the gradual price increase) is the liklier scenario, IMHO.

[LORD_BUNGLA]

well...its pretty cold this time of year. What happens if no agreement is reached?

[UkrainianAmerican]

well...its pretty cold this time of year. What happens if no agreement is reached?
NATO base in crimea? p-)

[Mr.K]

nothing, no offence but the ukranians will just steal gas like they used to do ;)

[AmericanImperialist]

So the Ukranians have the option to either increase rent on the pipeline to the point where it would cancel out any increases or increase rent on the Russian Naval base so that it cancels out any increases in price of gas?

If this is correct, it seems Ukraine holds the cards here (and they come off as the most reasonable as they said they will agree to pay fair market value).

[cepera]

The naval base will be removed soon anyways..perhaps now faster but Ukraine will have to be charging a proper price for the transit just as Russia is asking for a proper market price. On the whole issue I think Ukraine made a stupid move, turning their ass to Russia..they all want too much too soon. Ukraine's future EU membership very questionable since Turkey will have to enter before Ukraine does and Europeans dont seem to want anyone else. An even dumber move was claiming a NATO wannabe country...curious how they will dig theiselver out of this one.

[Russianpatriot]

NATO base in crimea? p-)

http://old.mil.ru/images/upload/r4.jpg

[Asheren]

^ ^
| |
| |
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c38/Asheren/13akopia.jpg


ps.Dont forget that NATO might get this and few other toys.
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/photos/gulf_war/117_07a.jpg

[Abbyy]

.Dont forget that NATO might get this and few other toys.
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/photos/gulf_war/117_07a.jpg

Not useful against Topol's warheads.

[Herrmannek]

I'm asking myself what Putin wants to achieve..doesn't he know that ervery time he pulls the string someone wants to break from that leash twice more :|

[Asheren]

Not useful against Topol's warheads.

Thats what the Russians say. No one ever made any combat tests so no one realy know if they can or can't be intercepted by NATO anti-missile systems.

[cepera]

I'm asking myself what Putin wants to achieve..doesn't he know that ervery time he pulls the string someone wants to break from that leash twice more :|

Putin knows exactly what he wants to achieve. At this point it's simply friendly, turning into more formal relations since Ukraine no longer wants to side with Russia ..their new president officially said that and by all means that's ok. But despite that they also want Russia to be paying for their own economic growth by selling gas $50/unit rather then $240/unit like the rest of europe is paying..but things dont work that way and as mr. Putin said "Boulivard woln't hold two".

[ed316]

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/printer_friendly/news_logo.gif
Putin admits Ukraine gas 'crisis'
Vladimir Putin has admitted Russia's dispute with Ukraine over gas supplies had led to a "real crisis" in relations between the two countries.
High-level talks are continuing in Moscow in an effort to resolve the dispute, centring on the amount that Ukraine pays for Russian gas imports.
Russia wants to raise prices fourfold and has threatened to cut off supplies on 1 January if terms are not agreed.
President Putin has offered Ukraine a loan to help it adjust to the deal.
Political crisis
While reiterating that Russia's price demands were unacceptable, Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko said on Thursday that a political solution must be found to the dispute.

This crisis appears to be a crisis between our two countries
President Putin

After meeting with senior ministers and Ukraine's energy minister Ivan Plachkov, President Putin publicly acknowledged the scale of the dispute for the first time.
"You have simply created a real crisis and not only in the energy sphere," news agency Interfax reported Mr Putin as saying.
"This crisis appears to be a crisis between our two countries. This is very bad."
Russia insists that Ukraine must pay market rates for the gas from its state-owned firm Gazprom, which wants to quadruple prices to between $220 and $230 per 1,000 cubic metres.
Concession?
Ukraine says it is happy to pay market rates, but wants price increases to be phased in gradually over several years.
In an apparent concession, Mr Putin said Russia would be prepared to offer Ukraine a loan in the region of $3.6bn to help it adjust to the new arrangement.
"We must give our Ukrainian partners the opportunity to arrange their budget in such a way that it can adapt to market relations," he said.

In one or two days, a political decision must be taken
President Yushchenko

Ukraine has warned Russia that it may seek international arbitration if an acceptable compromise to the dispute is not reached.
It has argued that Belarus, a close ally of Russia, will pay just $46 per 1,000 cubic metres for gas after a recent agreement, while both Georgia and Armenia are also paying less.
President Yushchenko described the price demands as "provocative" but said he expected the dispute to be settled shortly.
"In one or two days, a political decision must be taken not by the experts but by the presidents of the two countries," he said.
Ukraine's state-owned gas company has said the country has enough supplies to survive the winter, should Russia cut off its imports.
Relations between Ukraine and Russia have been tense ever since the election of the pro-Western Mr Yushchenko in 2004.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/business/4567270.stm

Published: 2005/12/29 16:02:57 GMT

© BBC MMV

[cepera]

Ukraine says it is happy to pay market rates, but wants price increases to be phased in gradually over several years.


Over how many years? 10 years? 20 years?

[Brute]

NATO base in crimea? p-)


N. Kruschev's 1954 decision will be annulled and Krim will join the Russian Federation. :-D woot

[Scrat335]

I think that they will work it out with an agreement to do it over the years. I also do not think that Russia will ever see the bill paid because ultimately the objective of the powers that control the Ukraine have only mischief in mind, not any type of fair dealings.

I suspect an agreement will be reached and it will be broken by the Ukrainians to make the Russians look like fools.

[Scrat335]

I doubt the Patriot can deal with a MIRVed missile. Not to mention whatever else the Russians decide to throw at them not excluding the kitchen sink.

[UkrainianAmerican]

N. Kruschev's 1954 decision will be annulled and Krim will join the Russian Federation. :-D woot
Thats like saying you wil get laid any time soon. Baseless claims. p-)

[AmericanImperialist]

I doubt the Patriot can deal with a MIRVed missile. Not to mention whatever else the Russians decide to throw at them not excluding the kitchen sink.

And why do you doubt that?

Personally, I can't see the patriot having any problem targetting each MIRV individually, but like you I have no background to substantiate this.

[Scrat335]

The Topol-M can carry 7 warheads. Toss in whatever else the Russians would throw at it (frogs, scuds) plus dummy warheads and the Patriot is not going to get them all.

If a scenario like that were to happen, it would not be like Iraq shooting 40 year old scuds at Israel 1 at a time. If you want to toss in the fog of war and other factors they aren't so great.

[Snoshi]

I just opened this thread last page and again if there is Russia in the topic name then "We will nuke you!!!11 and Our SAM's are better" phares will be all over it.

[Schizo]

I just opened this thread last page and again if there is Russia in the topic name then "We will nuke you!!!11 and Our SAM's are better" phares will be all over it.

Haha, that's quite true.
BTW, we just miss the "LOL RUSSIA IS POOR1111!!!!" , "RUSSIAN ARMY SUX!!11" phrases p-).

[Greek soldier]

Russia-Ukraine gas row heats up

Farting is forbidden! Go to the toilet and solve this problem!!

[Herrmannek]

I heard there is that joke in Moscow.. That Ukraininas will welcome new year with champaign without bubles because Russian cut off the gas :)

[Greek soldier]

I heard there is that joke in Moscow.. That Ukraininas will welcome new year with champaign without bubles because Russian cut off the gas :)

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

Instead their will use "natural human gases"

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[Schizo]

I heard there is that joke in Moscow.. That Ukraininas will welcome new year with champaign without bubles because Russian cut off the gas :)

LOL, champagne and Ukranians? We're talking about Ukranians here... Are you sure?
(They are even bigger vodka drinkers than Russia and Poland together p-)).

[UkrainianAmerican]

LOL, champagne and Ukranians? We're talking about Ukranians here... Are you sure?
(They are even bigger vodka drinkers than Russia and Poland together p-)).

Yes we drink champaigne, to chase down red pepper vodka p-)

[ed316]

Originally Posted by Snoshi
I just opened this thread last page and again if there is Russia in the topic name then "We will nuke you!!!11 and Our SAM's are better" phares will be all over it.


so true, The Pride of Mother Russia is overwehlming. lo rofl

[Brute]

Yes we drink champaigne, to chase down red pepper vodka p-)

We? :lol:

I didn't realize you were also a Ukrainian, RussianAmerican, in addition to being a Jew residing in the US.

Whoa, truly a man of multiple personalities! rofl

[Brute]

Thats like saying you wil get laid any time soon. Baseless claims. p-)

rofl

Baseless claims. You're right, that's precisely how one would describe your pathetic attempts to insult me by portraying me as being [insert a 2nd grade insult here]. :)

[cepera]

Aeee..good thread...:) He didn't look like a Jew to me..more of litso kaaavkazskoi naaatsionalnosti

[daily666]

Are there any Ukrainians to present their point of view? Today I've heard that there will be a major tv programme in Russia on new years day. It'll be "Turning the Ukrainian gas knob off" LIVE!

[UkrainianAmerican]

Aeee..good thread...:) He didn't look like a Jew to me..more of litso kaaavkazskoi naaatsionalnosti
First time I hear THAT! rofl rofl rofl
THe russian in my name has more relevance for american memebrs here, because no one cares enough to differentiate. Yes I am an American with a Soviet Ukranian Birth certificate that says nationality: JEW on it. :)

[UkrainianAmerican]

rofl

Baseless claims. You're right, that's precisely how one would describe your pathetic attempts to insult me by portraying me as being [insert a 2nd grade insult here]. :)
pathetic atempts? You are the one trying to discredit my opinions by reiterating that I am of jewish ancestry LMAO.

[ed316]

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/printer_friendly/news_logo.gif
Russia says gas cut won't hit EU
Russian energy giant Gazprom has renewed a threat to cut off gas supplies to Ukraine - but says it will not hit deliveries to western Europe.
Moscow and Kiev are holding talks over Gazprom's decision to quadruple prices.
Ukraine's President Viktor Yushchenko called for the price to be frozen until 10 January while talks continue, but Gazprom reportedly rejected the offer.
State-owned Gazprom is threatening to cut off Ukraine's gas at 0700 GMT on Sunday if there is no breakthrough.


But Gazprom chief executive Alexei Miller said there was a "detailed plan" to ensure that supplies transiting Ukraine to the EU would not be disrupted.
EU governments are convening a meeting of their gas industry experts in Brussels on 4 January to coordinate their response.
Ukraine at present receives cheap gas from Russia and in return, Russia uses Ukraine's pipeline network to transport most of its gas exports to western Europe.
German pressure
The German government on Friday urged Russia and Ukraine to reach a deal "as soon as possible". Germany gets about 30% of its gas supplies through Ukraine.

A detailed plan of measures to provide uninterrupted supplies of Russian gas to European consumers was approved
Alexei Miller
Gazprom chief executive


Kiev has rejected Moscow's offer of a loan to help pay for the controversial price hike.
State-owned Gazprom wants to quadruple the gas price to between $220 and $230 per 1,000 cubic metres, insisting that Ukraine must pay market rates.
Mr Miller said Gazprom's actions would "be precise and decisive" if no deal was reached with Ukraine by Sunday. He warned that gas supplies to Ukraine would be "completely cut off".
Ukraine says it cannot afford to pay the extra cost immediately and accuses Moscow of trying to score political points with the price rise.
Relations between Kiev and Moscow have been tense ever since pro-Western Mr Yushchenko was elected president in Ukraine in 2004 after huge street demonstrations.
Mr Yushchenko has now urged Moscow to accept a moratorium on the gas price until 10 January. By that date, he said, talks should be concluded and a contract signed.
But a Gazprom spokesman quoted by Ria Novosti news agency rejected the idea.
"They want to freeze prices for the first 10 days of January, then they'll want another 10 days," the spokesman said.
'Provocative hike'
The BBC's economics correspondent Andrew Walker says the dispute underlines the fact that Russia is set to have an increasingly important role in the world energy market.

It has the largest gas reserves in the world and its crude oil reserves rank in the top 10.
Some European countries already get substantial amounts of gas from Russia - and the possibility of disruption at some stage is real, our correspondent says.
Moscow offered Ukraine a commercial loan, worth $3.6bn (£2.1bn), to help cushion the increased cost - a sum President Putin described on local TV as huge, "even by Russian standards".
Ukraine rejected the offer, with Mr Yushchenko's office saying his country "does not need these credits".
Mr Yushchenko was earlier quoted by Russia's Itar-Tass news agency as describing the planned price hike as "provocative". The row has escalated steadily, with Russia saying that it will cut Ukraine's quota from the pipeline if Ukraine does not agree to the price hike.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/business/4568288.stm

Published: 2005/12/30 17:01:50 GMT

© BBC MMV

[Lokos]

Whilst being provocative in the political sense, this move is also perfectly fair enough. If the Ukraine wishes to remove itself from the Russian sphere of influence, that's fine. But they must also bear the consequences of that. Such as paying what the rest of the world pays for Russian gas, as opposed to what close allies pay.

Lokos

[Son_Of_Suvorov]

Yes I am an American with a Soviet Ukranian Birth certificate that says nationality: JEW on it. :)

Granted, I haven't looked at my birth certificate in a while, but it shouldn't list your ethnicity (which is not the same thing as nationality).

Now to comment on the original issue. The more this goes on, the more it looks like Yuschenko's government is trying to fan the flames and milk all the publicity he can out of this thing. The contract expired at a perfect time for him. I see nothing wrong with the current Russian proposal. Given the large loan the Ukranian utilities should be able to raise consumer prices gradually to European levels on a time frame compatible with Ukraine's EU hopes, which if done right will have no bad effects for the rest of the duration of Yuschenko's term. Unless there's a miraculous new field discovered somewhere else in Europe, natural gas prices there will continue to rise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the proposed contract will lock prices for the duration of the contract (like the previous one did)? Not a bad deal if you ask me. Instead of trying to set up normal relations with Gazprom, it looks like Yuschenko's turning the whole situation into another political circus where poor Ukraine (his Ukraine, of course) is again the victim of bad Pooty Poot. Quadrupling prices? More like ending subsidies and letting the invisible hand do it's free market work!

[Scrat335]

I think it is sad that it has come to this. There should be a plan to increase it over time, it should have been put in place last year.

I wonder if Yushenko is now playing games to gain even more power and status. I think they both are.

[Brute]

pathetic atempts? You are the one trying to discredit my opinions by reiterating that I am of jewish ancestry LMAO.


It's funny that you accuse me of trying to discredit your opinions like that.
Weren't you the one who did the very same thing in that other thread (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=66234&page=17), insulting other people you didn't agree with by calling them "15 yearold virgin asses bitch" not once but twice (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=66234&page=20) ?

I find such homo******, pedophiliac references on your part to be quite disturbing (and telling).

Secondly, I don't care if you're a Jew, or a whoever. Just want people to take your "Ukrainian-wannabe" opinions on the whole Russia-Ukraine issue with a (big) grain of salt.

[Brute]

Whilst being provocative in the political sense, this move is also perfectly fair enough. If the Ukraine wishes to remove itself from the Russian sphere of influence, that's fine. But they must also bear the consequences of that. Such as paying what the rest of the world pays for Russian gas, as opposed to what close allies pay.

Lokos


As always, Lokos, you nailed it with the least amount of words. woot
:hug:
10/10

[cepera]

I think it is sad that it has come to this. There should be a plan to increase it over time, it should have been put in place last year.

I wonder if Yushenko is now playing games to gain even more power and status. I think they both are.

Is unfortunate it came to this but Yushenko chose his sides by proposing his EU candidature and a NATO wannabe.

[UkrainianAmerican]

heres what is says: Национальноцть: Еврей
How am i different as an AMerican bron in ukraine from otehr Ukrainains born in Ukraine. Keep digging yur hole Brute. The fact of the matter is the majority of nationalistic russians on this board are teenage immigrants. COmpare their posts to russians residing in russia such as Asch or Abbyy. Their posts tend to be a lot more balnced out and respectable (regardless of their patritotism)
On the other hand its only the insecure immigrant russian wanabes trying tot alk **** about other races and how other races are less russian :)

[cepera]

Chill dude..nobody here is blaming you for being a Jew or whoever you really are. What concerns me is that you seem to think you know a hell lot more about Russia then the rest of Russians who were born and actually lived there and talk with prophanity towards people you dont know. Some people here may very well have more brains in their asses then you got in your head..so go shove it.

[BoyElroy]

The Financial Times Limited
December 23, 2005 Friday

Moscow seeks to wield petro-power as political tool ENERGY PRICES

By NEIL BUCKLEY, CAROLA HOYOS and TOM WARNER

DATELINE: MOSCOW

Russia is nine days away from potentially carrying out a threat to reduce gas supplies flowing through a pipeline across Ukraine to western Europe, unless Kiev pays higher prices for gas it takes from the pipe. The result could be winter energy shortages in some European countries.

Yet on the same day, January 1, Russia assumes the rotating presidency ofthe Group of Eight nations, of which it has made "energy security" a central theme. Moscow is widely expected to use its presidency to promote itself as a reliable energy supplier to the world's biggest economies.

These two positions may seem contradictory, but in fact point to the same conclusion. While it does so in a variety of ways, Russia is ever more confidently wielding its mammoth reserves of oil and natural gas as a political tool. High prices, tight supplies, and the west's desire to reduce reliance on Middle East suppliers are increasing its leverage.

"It is not that energy is the new atomic weapon," says Cliff Kupchan, an analyst with the Eurasia Group consultancy and former state department official in the Clinton administration, "But Russia knows petro-power, aggressively and cleverly applied, can yield diplomatic influence."

After spending the past year bringing key oil and gas assets back understate control, a string of events have shown howRussia is using its petro-power. Gazprom, the state-controlled gas giant, is demanding that former Soviet states, which since the USSR collapsed in 1991 have enjoyed subsidised prices for Russian gas, finally move to market rates.

But it is doing so in a highly differentiated way. Ukraine, having shifted out of Moscow's orbit since last year's Orange Revolution, has been slapped with the biggest demand for a price increase. Prices charged to Georgia and Moldova, which have also turned their gaze westwards, have nearly doubled. Yet Belarus, loyal to Moscow, is still getting gas at the old price.

Russia is using its dominant position in oil, too, to favour Russian commercial interests. It plans to cut oil supplies to Lithuania from January 1 in what analysts see as an attempt to press the Baltic republic to favour a Russian buyer over rival Polish and Kazakh bidders for the strategically important Mazeikiu oil refinery.

The refinery is being sold off by the Lithuanian authorities to pay off a huge back tax bill owed to Moscow by Yukos, the Russian oil company whose main production asset has, in effect, already been renationalised as part of the legal assault on Mikhail Khodorkovsky, its former owner.

Russia is, moreover, squeezing potential competitors in the former Soviet Union - notably Kazakhstan - that are trying to develop their own energy industries independently of Moscow. It is for example attaching tough conditions to allowing Kazakhstan to expand a key pipeline from the vast Tengiz oilfield in the Caspian to Russia's Black Sea port of Novorossiysk. This is crucial to plans by the field's operator, Chevron of the US, to ramp up production.

Also this month, Russia started construction, with some fanfare, of theDollars 5bn North European Gas Pipeline, an export route under the Baltic sea to Germany that will bypass the Baltic states, Ukraine and Poland. It attracted even more attention by naming Gerhard Schroder, the former German chancellor, project chairman.

Within days, word leaked that Russia's president Vladimir Putin had asked Donald Evans, the former US commerce secretary and close friend of President George W. Bush, to chair Rosneft, the Russian state-owned oil company preparing for an initial public offering. Mr Evans this week politely declined, citing other commitments.

How should the outside world make sense of all these different signals? Analysts say Russia has always used energy as a leverwith its former Soviet neighbours - and kept natural gas prices low partly to keep them within its fold - though it is being increasingly hard-nosed.

Political and economic interests are intertwined. With gas prices rising, increasing the effective revenue loss to Gazprom and Russia from providing cut-price gas, there seems little point continuing to subsidise states which have already shunned Moscow.

"The time when webuilt relations by quasi-subsidising neighbouring economies is gradually passing," Alexei Kudrin, Russia's finance minister, said last week. "We must think about our own interests."

Most analysts expect Russia and Ukraine to pull back from the brink before west European gas supplies are threatened; neither would want to be blamed forshortages.

Russia has far too much at stake. It is preparing to project its energy influence to a much wider audience - and its approaches to Mr Schroder and Mr Evans may be an important part of that.

Moscow has already hinted to US officials and international energy executives that it intends to use its coming G8 presidency to assure the world it can be a pivotal energy supplier to Europe, the US and Asia.

Mr Kupchan, of Eurasia Group, believes Russia has studied Saudi Arabia, which has used its energy clout to build a close geopolitical relationship with the US - and mute US criticism of its domestic policies. But he suggests Russia is aiming for a "Saudi-plus" model.

"Saudi Arabia has achieved this only with the US. The Russians are looking for something broader," says Mr Kupchan. Moscow wants to build a wider network of influence and, unlike some petro-states, turn its oil and gas companies into international players.

He forecasts more moves to grant minority stakes to foreign oil majors in Russian companies, both state and privately controlled, and oil and gas projects, though with Russia always retaining control. He also foresees more invitations to prominent western executives to take jobs with Russian energy companies.

Both could help confer a sense of legitimacy and transparency on its industry, especially after the state's asset-grab, and increase Russian companies' sway in foreign capitals.

But with some, particularly US, politicians challenging Russia's G8 role amid questions over its democratic record - heightened by the Yukos affair - western officials say Russia will be under intense scrutiny.

Says one person close to the White House: "The G8 is going to be a great opportunity for them to appear adult, responsible and be taken seriously by the world."

Additional reporting by Tom Warner and Carola Hoyos

I think that this article is as good a summary of this very complicated situation as I've come across. The thinly veiled anti-semitic comments expressed on this board really don't surprise me; they are, after all, coming from Russians :)

Lest we forget, let's remind ourselves of Russia's enviable human rights record and historical tolerance of ethnic minorities. It is truly something to be admired and emulated by all freedom loving peoples. Really.

[Son_Of_Suvorov]

heres what is says: Национальноцть: Еврей

Look again - the birth certificate only lists the ethnicities of your parents.

[cepera]

Lest we forget, let's remind ourselves of Russia's enviable human rights record and historical tolerance of ethnic minorities. It is truly something to be admired and emulated by all freedom loving peoples. Really.

So what's your point here..that all races but Russians are racist??? So how do you explain the situation in New Orleans? The people were left for week in despair with no help and the US government did nothing what's so ever cuz majority was poor low-income citizens of afro-american descent...all happened IN a country with the strongest economy on the planet. Riots in France. People of ME decsent find themselves to be unemployed uncared for "third class" citizens cuz their ancestors were invited by the government few decated ago as cheap labour force. That isnt racism or a human rights issue cuz it didnt happen in Russia, right? Wanna hear more from you..

[BoyElroy]

Cephara, what's up with the fixation on peoples' religious background? Let's you and I jump on Mr. Peabody's way back machine and take a stroll through Russia's illustrious history...Hmmnn.. did you know that Russians are responsible for some of the most horrific pogroms in human history? You guys (if you are, indeed, a "pure" Russian) built concentration camps inside Russia and imprisioned and murdered hundreds of thousands of your own countrymen for being Jews, homo******s and other non-appoved minorities.

I don't think you have much ground to stand on, young man.

[cepera]

I thought I asked you a simple question...so you mind answering it and staying on topic? Now its about Russians delibirately killing jews hah? Thats a new one. You ever been schooled, or not? With ground like that old man, dont know how much longer you got to stand.

[Vorian]

I thought I asked you a simple question...so you mind answering it and staying on topic? Now its about Russians delibirately killing jews hah? Thats a new one. You ever been schooled, or not? With ground like that old man, dont know how much longer you got to stand.

Relax. It is a fact that after the Holocaust there is a minority(thank God) of Jews that are possesed with Anti-semitism mania. They think that every one in this world that doesn't agree with them or supports Palestinians etc is an anti-semitist. One day they will get over it.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

You guys (if you are, indeed, a "pure" Russian) built concentration camps inside Russia and imprisioned and murdered hundreds of thousands of your own countrymen for being Jews, homo******s and other non-appoved minorities.

What camps are you talking about?

[Snoshi]

What camps are you talking about?

I dont know what he is talking about.. I know that it was pogroms in Russia,but Stalin delibilatry killing Jews..

[UkrainianAmerican]

Chill dude..nobody here is blaming you for being a Jew or whoever you really are.
Then tell your butt-buddies to quit bringing it up.


What concerns me is that you seem to think you know a hell lot more about Russia then the rest of Russians who were born and actually lived there and talk with prophanity towards people you dont know. Some people here may very well have more brains in their asses then you got in your head..so go shove it.
Thats becaus I DO know more, and I frequently visit. But that wouldnt be required, why dont you compare the 'russian wannabes' posts and posts of say Asch and Abbyy, who actually reside in RUssian Federation. Notice any difference? THe fact of the matter is most of you wannabes know jack squat about russia, and its obvious from your posts. O and just to make it easier for you, I am known as Ukrainian American :)

[daily666]

I dont know what he is talking about.. I know that it was pogroms in Russia,but Stalin delibilatry killing Jews..

That's what I would say, but... I was reading today (unrelated to this topic) about the guy who was a spy for the CIA and sold to US the MiG-29 and MiG-31 radar systems plans, and it was said that he did that because Stalin killed his parents for being Jews. The guys name was Adolf Tolkachev. Don't know if it was true.


and btw. Happy New Year to Everyone!

[Telnyashka]

That's what I would say, but... I was reading today (unrelated to this topic) about the guy who was a spy for the CIA and sold to US the MiG-29 and MiG-31 radar systems plans, and it was said that he did that because Stalin killed his parents for being Jews. The guys name was Adolf Tolkachev. Don't know if it was true.


and btw. Happy New Year to Everyone!

I believe only the MiG-31 radar systems, not the MiG-29. Aswell it was not because his parents were killed were jewish, its because they were killed in the first place. Its simply speculation that Stalin killed them because they were Jewish.

[Scrat335]

Put things in perspective here for chrissakes. He didn't sell the secrets because his mom and dad were killed, he did it for the money.

[cepera]

Then tell your butt-buddies to quit bringing it up.

Thats becaus I DO know more, and I frequently visit. But that wouldnt be required, why dont you compare the 'russian wannabes' posts and posts of say Asch and Abbyy, who actually reside in RUssian Federation. Notice any difference? THe fact of the matter is most of you wannabes know jack squat about russia, and its obvious from your posts. O and just to make it easier for you, I am known as Ukrainian American :)

Да, таких лохов еше не встречал.

[UkrainianAmerican]

I got owned
I concur woot

[cepera]

I accept my ignorance Sergei, but I gotta be strong cuz nobody likes me...

That's ok..I'll got easy on you now

[Brute]

heres what is says: Национальноцть: Еврей
How am i different as an AMerican bron in ukraine from otehr Ukrainains born in Ukraine. Keep digging yur hole Brute. The fact of the matter is the majority of nationalistic russians on this board are teenage immigrants.

Just who do you have in mind? Have you personally seen them, and know about their backrgounds? Or have you just figured it all out on your own?


COmpare their posts to russians residing in russia such as Asch or Abbyy. Their posts tend to be a lot more balnced out and respectable (regardless of their patritotism)

You shouldn't talk about balanced and respectable posts until you yourself stop flinging your immature insults.



On the other hand its only the insecure immigrant russian wanabes trying tot alk **** about other races and how other races are less russian :)



Most of the nationalistic Russians on this board are only that way because some folks on this board are ever-so-happy to spread unsubstantiated bullsh*t and lies about Russia. BoyElroy being the most recent example of that.

[BoyElroy]

Most of the nationalistic Russians on this board are only that way because some folks on this board are ever-so-happy to spread unsubstantiated bullsh*t and lies about Russia. BoyElroy being the most recent example of that.

Boyelroy speak truth. Brute speak with forked tongue. Boyelroy no trust Brute.

[Schizo]

Boyelroy speak truth. Brute speak with forked tongue. Boyelroy no trust Brute.

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/994/yoda5rr.jpg

[Brute]

Then tell your butt-buddies to quit bringing it up.

Dude, what's up with that fixation on male butts, "teenage boys virgin asses" and stuff like that?



Thats becaus I DO know more, and I frequently visit.
Good for you. There's a big difference, though, between visiting and actually living there. Sorry, but your opinion on Russo-Ukrainian affairs is that of an outsider, same as any of these russian immigrants you keep mentioning. You should stop pretending to be a Ukrainian through and through.



But that wouldnt be required, why dont you compare the 'russian wannabes' posts and posts of say Asch and Abbyy, who actually reside in RUssian Federation. Notice any difference?

We can compare them to yours, too, but that comparison isn't looking good for you.




THe fact of the matter is most of you wannabes know jack squat about russia, and its obvious from your posts.
You shouldn't be the one talking about people knowing jack squat about Russia. :roll:




O and just to make it easier for you, I am known as Ukrainian American :)

woot

[cepera]

Boyelroy speak truth. Brute speak with forked tongue. Boyelroy no trust Brute.

Boyelroy dont know jack..boyelroy must wisen up and go back to school to study history before he shall speak

[Kilgor]

aparently the gas will be shut off at 7am local time ....

Russia offered a deal, giving the same price for a quarter of a year, but ukraine didnt wannta sign.

Ughhh.. time to go to bed, so drunk at 9am.. happy new year !

[vi]

I feel sorry for many Ukrainians but they have called this upon themselves! If you want independence then pay for the gas at the prices that reflect world prices. For some reasons Ukraine has no problem selling gas to Romania at $265 (which is more than Germany pays Gazprom)
interesting events will unfold tomorrow at 10:00 am local time, when the gas will be switched off (according to russian news)

the funny thing is that some Ukrainians actually find a benifit in the situation, sth like now the industry will have to be modernised and make it energy efficient :D