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Javehn
02-17-2004, 07:31 AM
I have a questions , i understood that some members here (if they are all not left yet :bash: ) took part of UNIFIL toors . Can someone tell me what was their mission over there , exactly , as it written in mission description . What were they rules of engagement , if it's possible that some members took parts of a fighting sides over there , and what typical missions you had over there .
How can be , that members of Hisballah members passed freely near Israeli fence (i think it's even were on Israeli soil - i am not talking about kidnapping 3 IDF soldiers insident , just something i saw one day ) , while 5 metters from them there was UN outpost (don't remember it's name) .

P.S : Now , please please please , don't make this into a bashing typical thread or political flame . It's really not fun to talk threw PM's with someone . Just really interested to know .

Argyll
02-17-2004, 07:37 AM
I think this one has been brought up before javehn,and it did indeed end up as a flame war.

I know you mean well but the very way you put the question was an accusation,as to why the UN allowed hezbollah to walk past a UN outpost,to attack Israeli troops.It is asking to be flamed

I seem to remember it got pretty ugly as well,just giving you a heads up there on this one

Javehn
02-17-2004, 07:39 AM
Ah , sorry , no i didn't wanted to put it this way . Just wanted to know how they operate there . Not occusing no one , just wanted to know why those things happend (as an example i brought before ) . Well , if it get's messy , i will ask Hood to close it .

Ichhabe
02-17-2004, 08:18 AM
Ah , sorry , no i didn't wanted to put it this way . Just wanted to know how they operate there . Not occusing no one , just wanted to know why those things happend (as an example i brought before ) . Well , if it get's messy , i will ask Hood to close it .

No problem for me that you ask these questions.

I wiøø jump down in the think tank and try to remember what I did and did not do 17 years ago.

I will try to give you a 100% honest answer on how I acted and how I felt.

And I do hope that this will not end in a flame war.

Have nothing to hide, have nothing to be ashamed for.

Actually, I'm pretty proud of what I did.
Just need to look at some pictures to get my "remembrance" back.

Javehn
02-17-2004, 08:30 AM
1) when was your tour there , and for how long ? (You said 17 years ago , so in aprox of 1987) . And what is the name of the place you made your tour ?

2)What where the standing orders for you in the region you occupied , as they written in your mission description ? In short, what really you were supposed to do there ?

Ichhabe
02-17-2004, 12:56 PM
Javehn asked:


1) when was your tour there , and for how long ? (You said 17 years ago , so in aprox of 1987) . And what is the name of the place you made your tour ?

My first tour was in 1986, and I was there for 6 months. Second tour was in 1987, also for 6 months.

I was down there as a Combat Engineer, and our platoon was just outside of Ebel es Saqi across the valley.


2)What where the standing orders for you in the region you occupied , as they written in your mission description ? In short, what really you were supposed to do there ?

First of all, and this is just technicallities. We did not occupie any ground. The Norwegian Battallion was inside the Israeli zone of occupation.
Actually, our Battallion was the only UN-force that were inside the Israeli zone of occupation.

I will not comment on the UNIFIL's reason for being there, hence to the different UN-resolutions that we were supposed to "make come in to action".

So I will only focus firstly on what my platoon's different task was in our Area of Operation.

First: we were the entrepenours of the Norwegian Bat. We fortified positions and CP's.
We made OP-towers and shelters.

We also gave aid to the civil population when that was needed. Repairing roads, buildings, etc.

Secondly: we hat mine clearing tasks and clearing roads for Road side bombs.

Every morning before the sun raised, we had to clear all the main roads insie our AO and some other minor roads that were known for being used for IED's.

We also had Night patrols down to the Litani river wich was used as a infiltrators route on their way to Israel.
I don't have the numbers of infiltrators chatched by Norwegian UN-forces in those years Norbatt operated in Lebanon. But I can assure you that it is a great number.

Rules of Engagement.

This was the tricky part.

As we were not parts in the conflict, we had a awry ROE.
To make it short and sweet: We were not allowed to shoot back, unless shooten at.
So when are you shoten at you may ask. Almost daily UN-soldiers got shot at by different groups.
But it was seldom that we got hit. If so happened that nobody got hit, we could not shoot back.

The rule was quite simple: We were allowed to fire back when the first UN-soldier dropped to the ground.

What we were supposed to do?

How many times did we not ask ourself that question.
We had to have a strict stance on neutrality.
We were not allowed to interveine(sp?) when the different parts had their clashes or when the Israeli had operations inside our AO.
So if the Israelis decided to blow up a house in Cheeba, we just had to stand on the sideline and watch it happen.

All we could do against the Israelis, was to put a tail on their vehicles when they entered our AO. Meaning following them and monitoring their activities.


This was a long reply. There is more. Like how we looked on the different sides operating in the south of Lebanon. That I will return to on a later reply.
Digest this first Javehn. :D

OldRecon
02-17-2004, 03:23 PM
Can only fill in on Ihchabe.
Don't remember much of the finer points with regards to the UNIFIL charter.
Though do remember strongly the consensus of not shooting back unless some of your mates were hit.
There was also a sort of unwritten consensus in my unit I think, that if you killed a militia, you would perhaps be all well and sent home out of AO in no time yourself, but some of your mates would risk being killed in revenge instead.
Not that we wouldn't have fired back if one of ours was dropped first. Rather to the contrary, we would have been happy to make Swiss cheese of 'em if the stops were out.
Often local DFF militias would try to stir up trouble at UN VCP's (4-26 and 4-2B being particular "hotspots" for such activities).
And force escalation would generaly take the pattern of a "Simon says" game, with the militiaman having the initiative on heightening the stakes.
Generaly the worst it would end with was militia firing of a few shots to a magazine between the legs of UN personel, before being escorted out of NORBATT AO. Militia trouble makers involved in such "most serious" scenarios, or causing consistent troubles, would often be banned from entering Villages in NORBATT AO for several weeks or in some special cases months (if I remember correctly?).
Sometimes UN personel would also fire a few warning shots in the air in response to gun firing from militia. And weapons not being used for warning shots would be trained on milita loaded, but as said we wouldn't open fire unless oner ore more of ours got dropped first.
Also on night patrol if Armed elements (like Islamic resistance, LCP or Hezbollah) encountered, a flare rocket would (sometimes, depending on need for visibility for observance) be fired and a warning shouted to AE that they were now in UN zone. Sometimes AE would then be apprehended, at others they would run back out of AO.
If AE apprehended any weapons and explosives would be confiscated, and AE would be interrogated, and if AE couldn't be released same night, then there would follow a cat and mouse game with the IDF/GSS/DFF, hiding the AE from them until next night. Upon which the AE would be released without weapons at some spot on the borderline of the NORBATT AO to make it back to their own area.
Think that was the overall pattern for night patrolling, though we didn't do the most serious ones in my unit, and caught no one on such a patrol myself.
Otherwise there were day patrols along the Litani, Road convoy escort, VCP-duty (mostly counting cars and saying "have a nice day" to all and sundry :)), road clearance patrols (if any serious stuff were discovered people from Ichhabe's unit would be called in to deal with it, APC emergency response team duty, tailing of major DFF units (generaly of platoon strenght and not of frequent occurence) operating in NORBATT AO (if trying to operate without accompanying Israeli officers we would block the way and push them out), camp guard duty, helping out the engineering guys with some extra hands (especialy with the "Camp Eagle" project) or improving our own positions, and some OP-duty.
As for not interfering with the parties on the ground, I reckon observing X-ray or Victor on their way to or fro the Khiam prison, with some "cargo" in the back of the Merc for interrogation, on more occasions than I can count on one hand, without me being able to do more than reporting it to higher up and trying to observe as much as possible with regards to identifying the por sob in the back.
One colleague even observed the GSS (or SLA security men) give some poor sob a pretty nasty beasting in the roadside while driving past on convoy escort duty.

Coy A Norbatt 1989-90

Javehn
02-17-2004, 05:59 PM
Thank you for the answers . Theis is most interesting for me , at list because your stories are several eras before my time (i enlisted at 2000 , and 7 month after my reqruit IDF left Lebanon) , and you enlighten me about actions of IDF also amongst other things , when it still wasn't formed in security zones at defensive positions .

About the ROE , they do sounds somewhere in the sky . Do not open fire until you been fired on can be explained in many ways , and different commander would interprit it at different ways, so i guess to interprit it as "do not fire until someone is shot" was hard choice , but the right way to interprit this .

If you would tell more about your service there , please .

Ichhabe
02-18-2004, 04:53 PM
Funny story fro Lebanon in '82: On fine morning at the CP 4-24 a guy from Trondheim, Norway had guard duty.
Then Israel decided to invade Lebanon (again :D ).
While he stood there, a column of Israeli Merkava approached the CP. While standing there and watching the whole invasion, suddenly someone shouted "Howdy neighbour." He looked up, and in the open hatch, his neighbour from back home waved at him.

Javehn
02-18-2004, 04:55 PM
I read some stories (i think i even read it here ) about the confrontation between Sweden Bat , and an Israeli tank . At one point an Israeli Tank commander started to shout back on Swedish ... Again , it is very interesting for me , sence it is couplke of eras before me .

Ichhabe
02-18-2004, 04:59 PM
It is normal that jews of Norwegian origin to be conscripted in to IDF. And if it is normal here, I'll guess it is normal in Sweden aswell.

Javehn
02-18-2004, 05:01 PM
Question : did UN had any offensive operations there like intentional arests , or just simple patrolling the area ?

Ichhabe
02-18-2004, 05:15 PM
Question : did UN had any offensive operations there like intentional arests , or just simple patrolling the area ?

The only "offensive" operations as I can recall was the night patrols were we laid in "ambush" positions to catch infiltrators.

Royal
02-19-2004, 04:45 AM
Wow, thanks guys.

Rational, sensible, informative discussion between BTDT's (why I first came to this site :D ).

SeanAshi
02-19-2004, 04:53 AM
..simple...if they get to close, or if their intentions are hostile...shoot them

Royal
02-19-2004, 04:56 AM
I spoke too soon


..simple...if they get to close, or if their intentions are hostile...shoot them

If you know **** about it and have nothing sensible to contribute, PISS OFF.

Javehn
02-19-2004, 07:12 AM
Ok , you said you were bombarded by IDF . It happened frequently , without any reason to an eye ? (Can you also tell the years when you served in UNIFIL ? ) . Also about the village bombardment , can you tell more about this ?

OldRecon
02-19-2004, 08:01 AM
Another CP story from the Israeli invasion in 82.

As 4-2B CP stood, it was a corrugated iron/earth ramp blockhouse situated in the midle of the two lanes of the road.
Both lanes had been blocked with iron crossbar tank obstacles when the first IDF tank column were coming up from the south.
Rather than battling with those tank obstacles, the Israelis spotted the blockhouse as the "weak part of the line" and chose to avoid the tank obstacles by driving straight over the blockhouse instead.

Also one soldier in 4-18 OP (?) made a running commentary on the Israeli attack on the Chatteau Beufort as observed from his position, and had enough presence to tape-record this radio chat.
Think that recording was later digitalised and put up on the web somewhere (maybe veterannett?).

Javehn
02-19-2004, 08:11 AM
As 4-2B CP stood, it was a corrugated iron/earth ramp blockhouse situated in the midle of the two lanes of the road.
Both lanes had been blocked with iron crossbar tank obstacles when the first IDF tank column were coming up from the south.
Rather than battling with those tank obstacles, the Israelis spotted the blockhouse as the "weak part of the line" and chose to avoid the tank obstacles by driving straight over the blockhouse instead.


Hehe , nice story , i would do exactly the same thing . Instead of repairing the tracks for hours on hours , after passing the crossbar , in the middle of god knows where .


Also one soldier in 4-18 OP (?) made a running commentary on the Israeli attack on the Chatteau Beufort as observed from his position, and had enough presence to tape-record this radio chat.
Think that recording was later digitalised and put up on the web somewhere (maybe veterannett?).

That should be pretty interesting to hear . Unfortunatly i shure i wan't understand nothing :(

UkrainianAmerican
02-19-2004, 08:45 AM
I also served with UNIFIL with Irish Batt.
Ireland lost over 44 soldiers over there with one missing in action.
At times UNIFIL had an almost impossible task on one hand you had one of the worlds best equipped and battle hardened Armies and on the other you had a people prepared to do almost anything to free their Homeland from this aggressor! In the middle of all this was UNIFIL, who's AO was bombarded almost daily with rocket, artillery, mortar, gunfire, naval gunfire or ariel sorties.
Duties for UNIFIL included reporting Fly Reps (over flights by the Israelis)
Shoot Reps (any ordance dropped by either side) Move Reps ( either by the SLA or Israelis) medical assistance to the local population, manning of static checkpoints and posts, ordance disposal by EOD teams, foot patrols through local villages, humanaterian assistance to the local population, charity work by the contingents.
UNIFIL troops could only open fire if fired upon and only if troops had been hit. For instance if a post was hit by mortar fire from the Israelis Ground Hog was ordered and all troops except the commander and his observer stayed on the tower to observe the posts AO a shoot Rep was logged back to Coy HQ which in turn logged it back to Batt HQ which in turn logged it back to UNIFIL HQ and so on and so fourth it was only then that a complaint was made to the Israelis.
It was very hard to watch a village in our AO take fire from the Israelis. Im sure my Norwegian friend will agree with me here as the Norwegians and Irish served almost side by side.
I will never forget the Lebanon it was a beautiful country and it's people were very friendly and kind, I hope one day to go back as a tourist!
We can onle hope and see!
Ahh, the neutrality is simply asounding.

Javehn
02-19-2004, 09:13 AM
No no no no no no no fuken no !!! Stop
And what crimes against humanity ? Examples you saw with your eyes . Common . Please provide examples , you dropped the bomb , now bring the proof .
Rapes you saw , executions , please provide your knowledge .

UkrainianAmerican
02-19-2004, 09:17 AM
Russian American Israel invaded Lebanon and took over half their country then placed a Proxy Government and army in the South and committed crimes against humanity.
Just because Ireland is a Neutral country does not mean we cannot condem an act of war or the crimes associated with that war.
Without adressing your accusation, lets talk about the peaceful "people" of hizballah "willing to do anything to get the land back from this agressor!"
Pathetic.
No, wonder you've been mortared.

IDFM203
02-19-2004, 09:19 AM
Ok this thread was going releitivly pretty good so far...yes I have my issues with the UN but I was trying to leave them out and Javhen and the others here were doing a good job discussing their experiences which is what this thread was about.

believe me if this denigrates into a whole political discussion we can defiantly go at it as well.

I suggest that we stop and the more mature UN members here continue on with their stories and not about "war crimes" and about invasion (of course leaving out why we went in the first place.......but hey when did that ever matter to some people :roll: )

Shalom :D

Javehn
02-19-2004, 09:21 AM
Wait , we can debate this in good manner . Please , let's not degrate the thread into occusations .

He dropped the bomb , and now he will provide the numbers .

Rapes .
Executions .

Share facts , common , it's your stage .

UkrainianAmerican
02-19-2004, 09:21 AM
Ok this thread was going releitivly pretty good so far...yes I have my issues with the UN but I was trying to leave them out and Javhen and the others here were doing a good job discussing their experiences which is what this thread was about.

believe me if this denigrates into a whole political discussion we can defiantly go at it as well.

I suggest that we stop and the more mature UN members here continue on with their stories and not about war crimes and about invasion (of course leaving out why we went in the first place.......but hey when did that ever matter to some people :roll: )

Shalom :D
I was trying to avoid posting until the thing stunned everyone with his "neutrality".

IDFM203
02-19-2004, 09:25 AM
Yeah I hear you and it is noted that he has his personal agenda, however there were other UN members here sharing their stories, believe me I have gone at it with them in the past and was hoping to avoid all that now and to simply hear some of their stories or experiences. yes of course if one is going to interject it with their naive rhetoric without any proper context then you have a right to respond however so far that was only one member and if this thread is lost to him, it will be a shame.

I guess its too late………….oh well.

Shalom :D

UkrainianAmerican
02-19-2004, 09:38 AM
Perhaps to clarify things a bit, I only have a problem with the thing. I dont have any problems with others UNIFILers like Ichbabe and OldRecon.
Peace

OldRecon
02-19-2004, 10:45 AM
http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/nattskyting3.jpg

http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/saqi.jpg

http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/panzer.jpg

Colonel "Meadows seed mix nr. 7" in action (Battalion CO)
http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/bn_sjef.jpg

http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/litani_ap3.jpg

http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/tailing2.jpg

http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/eskorte1.jpg

http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/etaibe.jpg

http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/clash2.jpg

Is the nose cap on or off?? :roll:
http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/clash3.jpg

IDF out on a stroll.
http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/tailing1.jpg

http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/vab.jpg

http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/4-2b_cp.jpg

http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/wire.jpg

http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/solnedgang.jpg

Javehn
02-19-2004, 10:50 AM
Amazing photos , thank you . Can you tell the story behind this picture , if you know ?

http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/nattskyting3.jpg

Also , do you know perhaps the names of villadges on your pictures ?

Javehn
02-19-2004, 11:15 AM
Found this map , thought it would be interesting to present it here .
Not really shure why there isn't NorBat in here ...Where is NorBatt AO ?


http://maic.jmu.edu/journal/5.3/focus/Mohammed_Ahmed/minefields%20and%20incidents%20in%20unifil%20ao.gif

Alpha Leader
02-19-2004, 11:35 AM
I have also done UN service i south lebanon and i have 3 coningents down there,first was in 1990 1 plt Coy A.WEe had CP duty and nightpatroles.We patroled the area around Hasbani river and conduckted city patrole in Koukaba.We also had OP duty and called in alot of IDF movment.And we patroled for roadsidebombs,the roads down to Bourohs and Ebel es Saqi.
I remember one time when i had a shooting in my CP (4-26).I had just stoped a car wtih a smal family ,mother ,father and a doughter.I asked if they got any weapon in the car and were they were going.He told me that they had been down to the river and that they were giong to Marjaoun.The babygirl sat in the middle over the gearshifthandle and the mother kifted her up and under the sild was a beretta 45 cal!!I told them to steåp out of the car,at the same time anther car arrived and out cameThe GSS (general security service)boss and asked if there were som problem.I said yes but i dondt have the time to talk rigth now.Then he stated an argument with me, the other cp guard in the guardhouse aimed the MG 43 at him .It escalated so much that we had to call for Delta 1(QRT),
al kinds of trouble happends after that.GSS Boss suddenly brabbed me and fired up two rounds close to my head,next he put the gun to my head and asks me "who wnats to be a dead hero hmm",I told NOT ME TAKE IT EASY.I was happy that i had sunglasses on beacuse he stuck his face ut to my face and just stared in to my eyes.I was of course scared but i hope he didnt notice.That was one of the days in Lebanon.No one shoot the guy,i wanted to do that later but......

Our ROE said that
we could fire back when fired upon or if you or yor fellow UN soldier were in "deadly"danger,or if there is possible that UN owned infrastructure are to be damaged or destroyd.Cars buidings etc.

When i was down there the second time 1997-1998 i was in Company Mobile Reseve.We drowe around in an APC SISU XA 180.
And whwn IDF came inside AO and had APC`s we had to tail them.
One time they were too long inside,the had an one hour limit, they broke that and we had tailm them on foot.the y were looking for somone that maybe had explosives or hide someone.They didnt like us and didnt bug us much but asked for cigaretts and stuff.

The IDF artillery fired rounds over our heads and we could watch gunfights between Hizbillah and IDF/DFF.
IAF flew over us from time to time with Cobra`s and other helicopters.
They shoot out flares and we kinda liked that.
We were of course on leav in Tel Aviv and that`s a great city.
we used to say byby dollar hello shekcel"
Well hope this could help.


Shalom woot


Shalom woot

OldRecon
02-19-2004, 12:24 PM
Amazing photos , thank you . Can you tell the story behind this picture , if you know ?

http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/nattskyting3.jpg

Also , do you know perhaps the names of villadges on your pictures ?

APC platoon - Firing 84mm Carl Gustav RCL (a bit heavy, AP-round a bit long in the tooth, but nice AP, smoke & Ilum. rounds) Night trainging on the Hasbani range.

OldRecon
02-19-2004, 12:39 PM
... I remember one time when i had a shooting in my CP (4-26).I had just stoped a car wtih a smal family ,mother ,father and a doughter.I asked if they got any weapon in the car and were they were going.He told me that they had been down to the river and that they were giong to Marjaoun.The babygirl sat in the middle over the gearshifthandle and the mother kifted her up and under the sild was a beretta 45 cal!!I told them to steåp out of the car,at the same time anther car arrived and out cameThe GSS (general security service)boss and asked if there were som problem.I said yes but i dondt have the time to talk rigth now.Then he stated an argument with me, the other cp guard in the guardhouse aimed the MG 43 at him .It escalated so much that we had to call for Delta 1(QRT),
al kinds of trouble happends after that.GSS Boss suddenly brabbed me and fired up two rounds close to my head,next he put the gun to my head and asks me "who wnats to be a dead hero hmm",I told NOT ME TAKE IT EASY.I was happy that i had sunglasses on beacuse he stuck his face ut to my face and just stared in to my eyes.I was of course scared but i hope he didnt notice.That was one of the days in Lebanon.No one shoot the guy,i wanted to do that later but......


Was it the "bearded one" or that other guy with greasy curly hair and sweathy face looking like the "prototype of a Baader Meinhof" that messed with you?

One?
02-19-2004, 12:57 PM
Poor UN they are hated by everyone. Everyone is enjoying the stories so please don't fuking ruin it by adding "kill'em all comments".

fantassin
02-19-2004, 02:32 PM
While we are at it....

FRENCH MAJOR-GENERAL ALAIN PELLEGRINI APPOINTED FORCE COMMANDER OF UNITED NATIONS INTERIM FORCE IN LEBANON (UNIFIL)

Secretary-General Kofi Annan announced today the appointment of Major-General Alain Pellegrini of France as Force Commander of the United Nations Interim Force (UNIFIL) to succeed Major-General Lalit Mohan Tewari who relinquishes his post on 17 February 2004.

General Pellegrini enlisted as a cadet in the French Military Academy of Saint-Cyr in 1966. He is a graduate of the French Military Staff College and of the French Command and General Staff College of Paris (France). He has held various military appointments in his country and abroad, mostly in Africa and the Middle East, including command of a French Marine Regiment in Fréjus (France). He served also as adviser to the Defence Minister of Benin in Cotonou and as the Defense Attaché at the French Embassy in Beirut (Lebanon). In 1995-1996, he served with the United Nations Protection Force in Bosnia and Herzegovina (UNPROFOR) and IFOR in Sarajevo and Mostar. In 2000, as a Colonel, he was the head of the Africa and Middle East Division at the Military Intelligence Directorate in Paris.

Since July 2001, General Pellegrini is the special adviser of the French Chief of Defence Staff on issues related to Africa and the Middle East.

Alpha Leader
02-19-2004, 02:38 PM
OldRecon
yes the old bearded one but his second in command was there to.
I remember they drove a black Mercedes(Golf)
If i am correct i`l gess their callsigns was "xray and victor".
he was high on weed and he actually was supposed to fish in Hasbani river.WITH DYNAMITE:Dose guys were like crazy mother*****s.
The second in command had erlier fierd an RPG against 4-2Bcp
dont know if that is true though... :|

Javehn
02-19-2004, 02:43 PM
Who are those guys ? What is GSS (which General security service you mean ) ?

Alpha Leader
02-19-2004, 03:22 PM
GSS Stands for general security service and these people were locals,and they worked for IDF as an informer and was what i would call the higesth rank(chief) in local villages.The sivilians hated them for that.They had great power in the village they lived in, and the locals was to afraid to do something to them.
Beacuse they were GSS they carried weapon and they used them to...

When IDF was inside our AO they usually teamed up with GSS.
Beacuse the knew who IDF wanted, they told them.

They were in a way what we call Quislings(Traitor).You get the idea:-)
When they felt like it they harrased the locals and sometimes they shoot alot ,then we had go out to restrain ordrer.

I heard that after IDF drew back,alot of former GSS tried to move to Israel,if they staid they would be killed,somebody was killed for sure.


Check the link and were indibatt is now;WE used to be.
Just a bit further EAST right side of Al Qualuyah and Al Khiyam.
http://www.unifil.info/system/gfx/bilder/unifil_deploymap.gif

:P

Javehn
02-19-2004, 03:34 PM
Interesting . That sounds a bit strange from 3 reasons .

1)Someone is not much of informer if everybody knows who he is . I mean , how can someone find out some "internal info" , if everybody from kilometers knows he is a traitor ?
2) Sounds strange that they weren't killed by local residents of the villadge . Many lebanonians keeped private weapons in their houses .
3)Sounds strange that Israel would give them weapons , unless they haven't been SLA .

Now i think i heared something about those people . They were informers , but no one knew about it . And when they had to inform IDF , they did it in secret manner while arrested , or they been put on ski mask , and he would identify whoever he identified in his villadge . They did got issued arms , but they consealed it , and never went with it in a village itself , and showed off with it . They kept it consealed .

Is that somewhere correct , or not ?

OldRecon
02-19-2004, 03:41 PM
OldRecon
yes the old bearded one but his second in command was there to.
I remember they drove a black Mercedes(Golf)
If i am correct i`l gess their callsigns was "xray and victor".
he was high on weed and he actually was supposed to fish in Hasbani river.WITH DYNAMITE:Dose guys were like crazy mother*****s.
The second in command had erlier fierd an RPG against 4-2Bcp
dont know if that is true though... :|

The reason I asked, was that during a stay at a youth hostel "somewhere in Europe", when I was doing some interrailing during the summer of 1990, this other overnight guest got a bed in the same dormitory as me, an lo and behold he almost looked like a double of the "Baader Meinhof" guy, who was "Boss"-GSS (X-ray) when I was down there (the "Bearded one" being Victor (2ic) then).
The same height and and build, the same greasy, curly hair, rooted somewhat back from the forehead, the same sweathy face with beardstubs and glassy eyes.
"Gee" I thought, "this is too good to be true". So I kept watch on him from the corner of my eye, waiting for him to open his mouth and say something, so I could positively identify him as being or not being that old *****.
Fortunately he kept to himself and didn't say a word.
Thus as I wasn't 100% shure as to him being rather than not being, I refrained from acting. And perhaps that was best in the end??
I've often thought about that episode and what the hell I was up to. :|

Guess you recognize the Bearded one in the middle of the pic Alpha.
The "Baader Meinhof guy" then "Boss" standing in front and slightly to the left of "Beardy".
He shot an officer in the B-coy area in the knee during 85-86 I think. I'm not shure but think the officer in question belonged to the engineer platoon?
"Beardy" later took one Norbatt interpreter-officer hostage in an incident at either 4-26 or the entry CP to B-COY AO (don't remember the numbers of all the positions any more).
Got front page with big picture in VG for that if I remember correctly.
Sometimes I wondered if those guys were hooked on benzedrine or cocaine. At least "Baader Meinhof" often had salive running from nose.
When Israel asked if Norway could provide political asylum for some of their SLA-supporter, I often thought it would be interesting to see what would happen if any of those GSS-baddies should ask for asylum here.
I wouldn't welcome them for shure.
http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/clash5.jpg

BTW found this link interesting:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/lebanon/index.htm#TopOfPage
Gives a broad outline of the pattern of low intensity warfare at the eastern end of the Security zone.
You may have been able to see more activity than me from the OP, but I must say I was somewhat surprised when thinking on it afterwards, that they weren't more active from where I worked.

OldRecon
02-19-2004, 04:23 PM
Interesting . That sounds a bit strange from 3 reasons .

1)Someone is not much of informer if everybody knows who he is . I mean , how can someone find out some "internal info" , if everybody from kilometers knows he is a traitor ?
2) Sounds strange that they weren't killed by local residents of the villadge . Many lebanonians keeped private weapons in their houses .
3)Sounds strange that Israel would give them weapons , unless they haven't been SLA .

Now i think i heared something about those people . They were informers , but no one knew about it . And when they had to inform IDF , they did it in secret manner while arrested , or they been put on ski mask , and he would identify whoever he identified in his villadge . They did got issued arms , but they consealed it , and never went with it in a village itself , and showed off with it . They kept it consealed .

Is that somewhere correct , or not ?

Those guys we refer to here weren't the informers. They were sort of the local Gestapo. Handling informers or taking suspects to Hasbaya or Khiam to beat information out of them.
The "Bearded one" was shot in the stomach some time during 1988 I think, but survived that.
They would never travel alone - at best to places they felt relatively safe, like Ebl el Saqi, as a pair in one car. At other times they would travel in from 2 - 4 cars (exclusively Mercs). Generaly you could distinguish them from DFF because they were normaly armed with Colt Commando's, while DFF mainly had to suffice with AK's.
To some for them "hot" areas like Bourghoz near Litani, they wouldn't go unless being bakced up by a platoon of DFF or IDF in APC's.
Apart from that I had the impression they used their position in the area to run a little protection racket bussiness on the side. Especialy in Saqi.
As for the fact that they lived in the area they operated in, with families and all, it seems the strain was a bit too much for them.
Hence our assumptions they were addicts to one or more illict substance.
Besides those local boys, there was a purely Israeli "unit 504" or something, that had a weaknes for driving around ao in pegeout sedans, besides the standard Mercs.

Javehn
02-20-2004, 07:56 AM
You know what is facts ? Examples you saw .
Rapes .
Looting.
Murder .

I thought you would bring me some share info . You just repeat what have been said thousand times about Kana , and Sabra & Shatola , for fck sake , ready every second post here , it's talking about it (I am sorry , but you low on credability, after you said IDF performed Sabra and Shatila ) . You want the truth about Hana ?? Here is amazing revolation : Artyllery officer ****ed up . And then he tryed to cover his ass . That is nice you master it to crime against humanity performed by IDF great devil himself .


You haven't presented yet facts , but your personal feelings (Jews done the same to Britain ) . I have asked you to present facts YOU SAW . I don't nead a lecture about the whereabouts of SLA and IDF outposts , and how did you call them .

You repeating passwords . If you have general dislike for us , that's just your problem , i can't change that . Where is the numbers , or personall story of Jewish soldiers raping someone , executing someone ? Yes , i know that because we are considering ourselfes a higher race then humans , we feel too much discust to rape Arab women , but still,try to find something .

No personal feelings . Facts and numbers .
Rapes , execution , looting .

And please , don't mix SLA with IDF . Like you allready did once .


Now , to everybody else , who will jump on the subject : Please , don't stir the **** . Obvios he dislike us , but until he provide solid facts , and something more then designation of the outpost (Yupi fuking hey to you ) , he has nothing to proove , and he is just talking with passwords . Please , ignore , and don't stirr the **** , this topic is quiet nice .

To every other members that did tours in UNIFIL , if you have stories that connected somehow to the subject , please provide them .

Javehn
02-20-2004, 08:17 AM
Well , i have access to some disclassified documents of intellegence about Lebanon , and i can translate them . You must understand something about Israelis , they are mostly open and very self critic on those matters , so if they were cases like this in Lebanon , it would be long ago known to everybody , and would raise a ****storm in the country . Sabra and Shatila raised huge storm in Israel , and many people were blaimed , even when it was performed by SLA , and IDF soldiers entered inside after they understood that something fishy is going on there .

Perhaps you mean something else by war crimes . What do you mean by it?

And by the way , your Europian Union can kiss my war crime ass , that what they can accept . The funniest thing i saw in my service is a bunch of Euro kids stoned by Palestinians , when they were there to "protect" them from wishios army . The horror in they eyes , priceless . And guess who saved them ? Wishios war crimer army . Now please stop say the words Europian Union , or you even loose more credability . Again , if you have personal dislike to our Army deads , that's just a personal dislike , nothing more .

Let's say i have personal dislike on UN actions , based on what i SAW , and know . I think some of those things are war crimes . You don't see me post them on here . No . Somehow apparantly former IDF warcrimer soldier tryed to be neutrall , something that former UNIFIL (Neutral that is ) member couldn't . Strange .. But , if great EU sais , who am i to argue .

FACTS . NUMBERS .

Another disclaimer : Don't turn the thread into occusations and counter occusations . Let him bring the facts again , something more then designation of outposts .

To other guys , keep bringing the great photos and stories . They are very interesting . Please tell more stories about your being there .

UkrainianAmerican
02-20-2004, 12:01 PM
SLA and Israeli Defence Forces were one and the same it seems in Lebanon. Equipped paid and commanded by Israelis Forces.
I don't hate people of Jewish faith I just dislike the actions of Israel in Lebanon.
Im afraid I don't have access to Mosad's intelligence files perhaps if you contact them they will kindly pass on some of the details that you request untill then you must accept that Israel is guilty of crimes against Humanity in the Republic of Lebanon.
Just accept the fact that Israel committed war crimes the European Union has accepted this why can't you?
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

One?
02-20-2004, 01:04 PM
the interogation methods used in Khiam, and the former ansar camp were humane right? Firing flachette on civilian areas was also alright.

Javehn
02-20-2004, 01:07 PM
I understand you don't familiar with open fire area , and closed fire area , and unfortunatly i can't explain it to you .

Ichhabe
02-20-2004, 03:23 PM
http://home.no.net/wigpeder/index-filer/image/clash5.jpg

Interesting pics of the Quisling of Southern Lebanon. That guy, Nidal: we called him Lurifaks. Lurifaks was the Norwegian name of an old wizard in an English TV-series from the early 70's.

He was connected to the Lebanese GSS. An organisation supported by the Israelis.

That Nidal, was in nice words a simple thug. The other guy that is his XO is also probably his brother. They used to terrorize the small villages, and I know that if anything happend to those to guys or any other member of the Lebanese GSS, the SLA (DFF= De Facto Forces) would have moved in and done some bad revenge on the family or the whole village.

Some others mentioned the jail up in El Kiahm. Sorry to say to you Israeli guys, but that was the "free zone" were SLA and IDF could interegate prisoners.

The UN-observerers called UNTSO had a OP-tower not far from that prison, and some ****ty stuff took place inside those walls.

Javehn
02-22-2004, 12:34 PM
Interesting stories , please continue to tell them .
About the El-Hiam prison ,it is pretty known matter . This matter got to our high justice court and was debated there , to proove conection that El-Hiam SLA interrigators were controlled by Israel intellegence . The methods used there are also pretty well known . It raised some **** storm in Israel while ago .I heard actually that Norvegian UNIFIL soldiers used to bring presents to El-Hiam prissoners .
Please continue to tell your stories , they are interesting .Tell more about those GSS guys , please .
Also another question , what branches were active there ? Except of infantry soldiers , and Sappers ?

citizen-k
02-22-2004, 03:57 PM
You want war crimes ok how about when the Israeli army killed over 130 civilians and Fijian peace keepers in a United Nations compound in Quana or how about the Sabra refugee camps.
The difference between IMAL or Hezbullah is that they are not a state army like the IDF. Yes they carried out some horrific acts of war against the Israeli people but did the Israelis not do the same to the British when they occupied Palistine?
Ariel Sharon is wanted for War Crimes by the international court of justice for the actions of Israeli Forces in the Sabra refugee camp. Here civilians (both women and children) were murdered in cold bold by Israeli Forces.
What about Operation Grapes of Wrath was this not a war crime against the South Lebanese people over 300 hundred Lebanese civilians were killed?
You want the names of villages where the SLA or Israelis Launched attacks on an almost daily basis! Ok Tibnin, Bra chit, Al Jurin, Bayt Yahun, Saf al Hawa, Rasaf, Haddathah, Haris.
Major SLA posts in the Area Whiskey 128 (SLA) whiskey 129 (SLA) whiskey 130 (SLA) whiskey 132 (SLA) whiskey 133 (SLA) whiskey 134 (SLA) whiskey 136 (SLA) whiskey 137 (SLA) whiskey 138 (SLA) whiskey 139 (SLA) whiskey 141 (SLA) whiskey 142 (SLA) whiskey 144 (SLA) Echo 205 (Israeli army) Echo 219 (Israeli army) Echo 208 (Israeli army0 .
WWW.UN.ORG
Hope this helps

Never actualy been to Lebanon, right?

Qana was discussed here before, in short - if the Hizbullah wouldn't been using the UN posts as shelters for their shellings (of Israeli cities) none of this wouldn't have happen.

"Grapes of Wrath" stareted after six month of shellings on Israeli cities by the Hizbullah - most civilians who got killed died while been used as live shields for hizbullah...

citizen-k
02-22-2004, 04:00 PM
SLA and Israeli Defence Forces were one and the same it seems in Lebanon. Equipped paid and commanded by Israelis Forces.
I don't hate people of Jewish faith I just dislike the actions of Israel in Lebanon.
Im afraid I don't have access to Mosad's intelligence files perhaps if you contact them they will kindly pass on some of the details that you request untill then you must accept that Israel is guilty of crimes against Humanity in the Republic of Lebanon.
Just accept the fact that Israel committed war crimes the European Union has accepted this why can't you?

rofl rofl rofl

"SLA and Israeli Defence Forces were one and the same it seems in Lebanon. Equipped paid and commanded by Israelis Forces." - where did you hear that?

SLA was made out of Christian people who defended themself from the typical Muslim madness in the Middle east... (and Palestinian gangs of rubbers, thiefs and rapists - which is what they do best)


Republic of Lebanon? Republic of Syria, maybe.

citizen-k
02-22-2004, 04:08 PM
Russian American Israel invaded Lebanon and took over half their country then placed a Proxy Government and army in the South and committed crimes against humanity.
Just because Ireland is a Neutral country does not mean we cannot condem an act of war or the crimes associated with that war.

A. 20km is NOT over 1/2 of the country.
B. No Government was established in the south.
C. The SLA was created in order to protect the christian community in SL.
D. Israel invaded to Lebanon in order to keep Palestininan Terror away from its borders - not in order to "conquer" anything.
E. The lebanonians were not free before Israel invasion due to the Syrians, and they still are not from the same reason.
F. Since Israel left SL the Lebanonian army DID NOT get in to take the area under its control.

Argyll
02-22-2004, 04:10 PM
I told you this would end up a flame war ;)

citizen-k
02-22-2004, 04:15 PM
No falmes, just some facts.

Argyll
02-22-2004, 04:21 PM
No falmes, just some facts.

doesn't look like it with Russian Americans expertise on UNIFIL does it,and then the Things post that just opened up the usual can of Worms ;)

I wasn't UNIFIL but I was in Cyprus when the USMC got hit hard.

Was a pretty good thread till things started and accusations(Yawn)re surfaced again

IDFM203
02-22-2004, 04:38 PM
hmm funny mate ;) in that you first single out RussianAmerican's response and not the other way around for the way this thread has gone or could go for I saw it as “the thing” first making his snide remarks interwoven into his post in what was originally supposed to be a thread where UN members share their experiences without any of their personal rhetoric attached to it.

Simply discuss what they saw persoanly and that is it.

But I guess as usual (yawn ;) ) we see things differently ;)


Believe me I have held back here and was patiently reading what some members had to say even if I had “clashed” with them before and except for “the things” comments, this thread remained well.

Citzen k has all the right to respond to “the things” comments and frankly I think he did a superb job. That’s not a flame at all and if one perceives it as such well then he should direct that at the one who initiated the can of worms.

Now would I have responded now, probably not as I have gone at it before, but that doesn’t mean that citzen k shouldn’t respond here if he so chooses to nor does it mean that he is responsible for a falme war being that all he is doing is responding to flaming rhetoric from another member that initiated it.



Just on a side note to the other UN members here, continue on with your stories as Javehn has said though for me it would be nice to hear for once a positive story for Israel’s defense or at least one in where you talk about hetbblahs or the PLO’s actions against Israel where I can at least once have a positive thought on what you guys did there as opposed to always hearing negative comments or tones about Israel’s actions.(which I have held back from responding to in this thread)

Shalom :D

Argyll
02-22-2004, 04:53 PM
em IDF I singled out RA's response as he made the comment "Ah there goes neutrality" or something like that.
A comment that came from someone not involved in the topic before,who actually showed his complete Unbias(I've read his other threads about this area)

Now the point here was a guy who was there in UNIFIL(The thing)who strted to get flamed by someone who was conspicious of his absence in any other part of this thread.

I never responded to the Things because like I said I wasn't there,and it is not for me to comment on,you need to take that up with him.

Again the point is he made his comments regarding his time at UNIFIL,and it was immediately slammed,and thus the flaming has started,it was exaxtly the same last time this was subject was brought up,and javehn was warned that it starts off harmlessmbut ends up with either side being accused of being in the wrong.


and again you make a comment about how nice it would be to hear a nice story about the IDF for a change,maybe these guys simply did not see it that way,who knows,ask them,if they did not see any then it does not make them out to be liars or anything like it. ;)

Shalom :D

IDFM203
02-22-2004, 05:18 PM
and again you make a comment about how nice it would be to hear a nice story about the IDF for a change,maybe these guys simply did not see it that way,who knows,ask them,if they did not see any then it does not make them out to be liars or anything like it. ;)

Shalom :Dyeah I know how they see or perceive things, though I avoided commenting on it now or how I perhaps see their actions or views as well, which I have avoided in this thread.

What I am trying to do is give them the benefit of the doubt that they don’t perceive everything or every action that ever went on there to be solely negative on Israel.

I mean we can argue about if what we did there was good or bad or why or who we went in for, though to insinuate that everything that went on there was negative for Israel and that there are no negative hetbllah stories that they witnessed or PLO stories or even any stories where they saved an Israeli life, seems a bit far fetched and I guess if they have none or they simply havent shared any of it yet, well it should be nice to for once hear some of it.

Or I guess we can just go on with us having very negative views on the UN based on a lot of reasons of what we saw and witnessed as well (which I am not going to rehash here) and not any positive ones which I was hoping to get for once here and as such that’s why I asked as opposed to simply continuing with the usual conversations.

As for me taking it up with “the thing” if you see my post in the second page, I purposely avoided commenting on his postings and pleaded that he stop distracting from what was a good thread before his comments.

Also remember it was he who first initiated any flames and as such no matter how you percive RA comments to be, it is not he who bears responsibly on how this thread has progressed.




P.S. while we are hearing stories, how about you tell us a little about your Cyprus experience. I am always interested to hear a fellow soldiers personal experiences :D

Shalom :D

Javehn
02-22-2004, 05:19 PM
People , for fuuk sake , stop this now . I thought that the hardest thing to do is not type a responce . No one is a damn angel , and the thing is probably making himself . So , enough please .

Ichhabe
02-22-2004, 05:28 PM
Argyll said:


and again you make a comment about how nice it would be to hear a nice story about the IDF for a change,maybe these guys simply did not see it that way,who knows,ask them,if they did not see any then it does not make them out to be liars or anything like it.


Nice stories about the IDF?!? Sorry, that is a hard one.

And this comes from one that changed his sympathy towards the Israelis in 1987 on his second tour.

There is one thing that I regret from my service in Lebanon. That is that I never walked over to talk with Israeli soldiers when we were up close to them. ( I did visit the SLA-house besides 4-26. Will come back to that story later.)
The "problem" as I saw it, was that it seemed liked the IDF-soldiers had an agressive stance toward us UNIFIL-soldiers that I never understood.
They never cheared at us, never smiled or waved. Never saluted or did things that seemed like that they aknowledged our presence in the area.

(Before going any further here: This is what I observed and how I interpreted the situation. I may be wrong, but it is how I saw that at that time.)

The first time I met soldiers of the IDF, I waved and smiled at them. Their reply: The middle finger.

Second time, I just waved. Reply: Middle finger. And of course, both times also the evil eye.

So I soon learned to just ignore Israeli soldiers. When we met them on the road, we also started to give them the evil eye.
When we met them inside UN-check post we had a tug of war on whom to back out so the other side could pass through first.

All this may sound childish to them that wasn't there. But it was like som "King of the Hill"-competition that the IDF of course won in 95 % of the times. But we liked to make some sort of resistance so they would know that we were not to push around on their delight.

If we met them on foot patrols, it sometimes looked like a pack of tom cats walking around and measuring eachother. Funny now, but back in those days just a sparkle could be enough for the situation to get out of hands.

So, sorry to say that I don't have much nice to say about the IDF except that we had the highest respect for them. We knew what they were capable of doing. We knew that they would do it. And sometimes they did...

Argyll
02-22-2004, 05:30 PM
and again you make a comment about how nice it would be to hear a nice story about the IDF for a change,maybe these guys simply did not see it that way,who knows,ask them,if they did not see any then it does not make them out to be liars or anything like it. ;)

Shalom :Dyeah I know how they see or perceive things, though I avoided commenting on it now or how I perhaps see their actions or views as well, which I have avoided in this thread.

What I am trying to do is give them the benefit of the doubt that they don’t perceive everything or every action that ever went on there to be solely negative on Israel.

I mean we can argue about if what we did there was good or bad or why or who we went in for, though to insinuate that everything that went on there was negative for Israel and that there are no negative hetbllah stories that they witnessed or PLO stories or even any stories where they saved an Israeli life, seems a bit far fetched and I guess if they have none or they simply havent shared any of it yet, well it should be nice to for once hear some of it.

Or I guess we can just go on with us having very negative views on the UN based on a lot of reasons of what we saw and witnessed as well (which I am not going to rehash here) and not any positive ones which I was hoping to get for once here and as such that’s why I asked as opposed to simply continuing with the usual conversations.

As for me taking it up with “the thing” if you see my post in the second page, I purposely avoided commenting on his postings and pleaded that he stop distracting from what was a good thread before his comments.

Also remember it was he who first initiated any flames and as such no matter how you percive RA comments to be, it is not he who bears responsibly on how this thread has progressed.




P.S. while we are hearing stories, how about you tell us a little about your Cyprus experience. I am always interested to hear a fellow soldiers personal experiences :D

Shalom :D

about the time the IDF sailed into Limasol in a great big yacht crewed almost entirely by females?........huba huba huba!! ;)
Beautiful women every single one of them,shame the ratio was about 200 jocks to 1 female!!

This is a pretty goos thread so far credit to you guys for kepping it 90% civil!!

Can I ask the Israeli's who are participating in this thread what age they would have been back then during GOW?Nothing sinister,just curious as to why you would be interested in actions that took place almost 20
years ago?

Javehn
02-22-2004, 05:33 PM
Priceless stories . More . That does souns a bit like Israeli soldiers . But we also can be very friendly , dependes on situation .

To Argyll , i am 22 (yea yea yea yea , i am young , here is a middle finger for you ) , and when i got enlisted , that was exactly the time IDF have left Lebanon . I served near Lebanon border , and wondered many times about different things connected to Lebanon . Not much books to go around from soldiers telling their experiences , so , why not .

Nice story by the way , argy .

Argyll
02-22-2004, 05:41 PM
Priceless stories . More . That does souns a bit like Israeli soldiers . But we also can be very friendly , dependes on situation .

To Argyll , i am 22 , and when i got enlisted , that was exactly the time IDF have left Lebanon . I served near Lebanon border , and wondered many times about different things connected to Lebanon . Not much books to go around from soldiers telling their experiences , so , why not .

Nice Yacht story.

Yep you never know till you ask!
Is it common for former IDF personel to publish books about their Ops and stuff,like it is over here?

Yeah the Yacht was a beauty,A schooner I believe,all the guys nearly pissed themselves with excitement when all these babes were on deck,man I've travelled the world and it's a toss up between Israeli women and Chilean women as to whom the ultimate beauty lies

IDFM203
02-22-2004, 05:48 PM
To Ichhabe


This is “your” (or your fellow UN members) thread so to speak in that its supposed to be about your stories and experiences and I am avoiding getting into discussions and disputing what you said for that distracts from this thread and there other threads about this in the past.

I guess I will simply ask you why you think IDF soldiers were hostile towards the UN personal. I mean its not something that is taught to us in training nor do we have those feelings based on nothing.

Like I said there are many reasons why we don’t have a favorable view and to get into them now would be a whole long discussion which is not productive, Ill simply phrase and sum it up as we saw you as not being fair and objective and I guess while you have your perceptions of the IDF based on what you saw and I guess nothing is going to change that we too have our views and perceptions based on what we saw as well and as such its best to stick with stories and if you say you have no or you bring no hetsbblahs stories or PLO stories that you witnesses against the IDF or aginst Israeli towns and that they were all angles, well thats your right to have.

I guess I was hoping for some thing else and not just things aginst the IDF which however we dispute things, whats for sure is that not everything that happned there was negetive aginst the IDF even though you havent brought anything other then negetive things, for there were other things then just the way you outlined it but I guess we wont be hearing them from you………oh well :roll:

Shalom to you :D

Javehn
02-22-2004, 05:48 PM
Well , only recently (not counting the books from the great generals , that every one of them have at list 2 books) some soldiers started to write books on they experience . But , nothing like the books of "Andy Mc'nab" , nothing even close ( and as far as i understood , that guy was a overexadurating alot in his books) . Unfortunatly , some of those books was wrote by ***** ass crying *****es that the army was a harsh reality for them . So , not much information from those books .

California Joe
02-22-2004, 05:55 PM
To Ichhabe


This is “your” (or your fellow UN members) thread so to speak in that its supposed to be about your stories and experiences and I am avoiding getting into discussions and disputing what you said for that distracts from this thread and there other threads about this in the past.

I guess I will simply ask you why you think IDF soldiers were hostile towards the UN personal. I mean its not something that is taught to us in training nor or do we have those feelings based on nothing.

Like I said there are many reasons why we don’t have a favorable view and to get into them now would be a whole long discussion which is not productive, Ill simply phrase and sum it up as we saw you as not being fair and objective and I guess while you have your perceptions of the IDF based on what you saw and I guess nothing is going to change that we too have our views and perceptions based on what we saw as well and as such its best to stick with stories and if you say you have no or you bring no hetsbblahs stories or PLO stories that you witnesses against the IDF or aginst Israeli towns and that they were all angles, well thats your right to have.

I guess I was hoping for some thing else and not just things aginst the IDF which however we dispute things, whats for sure is that not everything that happned there was negetive aginst the IDF even though you havent brought anything other then negetive things, for there were other things then just the way you outlined it but I guess we wont be hearing them from you………oh well :roll:

Shalom to you :D

Perception is reality. He simply related what he saw and experienced, then he concluded with, they held the IDF in the highest regard as soldiers. Then you respond like he is a mental patient with a skewed reality. Maybe his view was limited. It happens. Didn't sound like an indictment of all of Israel.

IDFM203
02-22-2004, 06:06 PM
I responded exactly as I said it to him and not how you framed it that he is some mental patient or whatever insinuations come with that :roll:

I got what he saw and as I said before, Israelis also saw certain things. And yes we all have our limited view of what we saw for its impossible to see all things at all times. However like I said before, if all he saw was Israeli soldiers giving him the middle finger or things like that (which are mostly negative things) and nothing else of hettbllh or the plo (which I find hard to believe) well that’s his prerogative as I said before and its too bad that I wont be hearing anything else even though I KNOW there were other things that happened there that even UN personal saw, though I guess he only saw one type of thing.

Unless of course he saw other things besides negative things with the IDF, which he can share them here, which is what I have been asking for all along.

But again if he didn’t well I accept that (even though I find hard to belive).


I never said what he said was an indictment of Israel, however what’s clear is that its a one sided indictment of the IDF and while I can accept that for that’s his view, what I persoannly don’t accept is that he or at least others didn’t see anything else there other then just negative things on the IDF.

Shalom :D

Argyll
02-22-2004, 06:09 PM
I'm off to get a Fire tender to stand by for these Flames

California Joe
02-22-2004, 06:24 PM
I agree that his view is decidedly one sided. Maybe he has an axe to grind. I don't know. Experiences tend to do that to people I guess. It's how prejudice becomes ingrained in the first place. That being said, a lot of what get's said around here is unsubstantiated and unfounded. Opinions get passed as facts. I don't think you'll convert Ichhabe to your way of thinking though. ;)

citizen-k
02-22-2004, 06:26 PM
Argyll said:


and again you make a comment about how nice it would be to hear a nice story about the IDF for a change,maybe these guys simply did not see it that way,who knows,ask them,if they did not see any then it does not make them out to be liars or anything like it.


Nice stories about the IDF?!? Sorry, that is a hard one.

And this comes from one that changed his sympathy towards the Israelis in 1987 on his second tour.

There is one thing that I regret from my service in Lebanon. That is that I never walked over to talk with Israeli soldiers when we were up close to them. ( I did visit the SLA-house besides 4-26. Will come back to that story later.)
The "problem" as I saw it, was that it seemed liked the IDF-soldiers had an agressive stance toward us UNIFIL-soldiers that I never understood.
They never cheared at us, never smiled or waved. Never saluted or did things that seemed like that they aknowledged our presence in the area.

(Before going any further here: This is what I observed and how I interpreted the situation. I may be wrong, but it is how I saw that at that time.)

The first time I met soldiers of the IDF, I waved and smiled at them. Their reply: The middle finger.

Second time, I just waved. Reply: Middle finger. And of course, both times also the evil eye.

So I soon learned to just ignore Israeli soldiers. When we met them on the road, we also started to give them the evil eye.
When we met them inside UN-check post we had a tug of war on whom to back out so the other side could pass through first.

All this may sound childish to them that wasn't there. But it was like som "King of the Hill"-competition that the IDF of course won in 95 % of the times. But we liked to make some sort of resistance so they would know that we were not to push around on their delight.

If we met them on foot patrols, it sometimes looked like a pack of tom cats walking around and measuring eachother. Funny now, but back in those days just a sparkle could be enough for the situation to get out of hands.

So, sorry to say that I don't have much nice to say about the IDF except that we had the highest respect for them. We knew what they were capable of doing. We knew that they would do it. And sometimes they did...

Middle finger? NOW THATS WHAT I CALL EVIL!!! :cantbeli:

IDFM203
02-22-2004, 06:41 PM
I don't think you'll convert Ichhabe to your way of thinking though. ;)if you’ll notice I wasnt trying to (believe me I don’t expect to and its not something I am interested in doing at all) and as such I was avoiding giving my personal opinions on what he saw or what others in the UN did.

I was simply asking him or others for other stories then what has been told up to now. That is all I have been doing.


Anyways contrary to how it might look, I always appreciate your input ;) :D

Shalom :D

California Joe
02-22-2004, 06:56 PM
I don't know enough details about the numerous conflicts in your part of the world to offer any opinions on it. I know the history in broad terms which is why I usually read these threads and don't pretend to know anything about them from reading a book. 1st hand accounts are usually best.

California Joe
02-22-2004, 06:57 PM
sorry, double post.

Ichhabe
02-23-2004, 03:42 AM
California Joe said:


1st hand accounts are usually best.

A Norwegian Colonel once said that the biggest liar is the eye witness. What he meant by that was that sometimes we would see things happen down there done by any side of the conflict. What we saw may alter and change our view. But it wasn't neccessarily the "truth" we saw.

What happened, could be a reaction on something that had happened before we came. It could also be "loose cannons" on the deck that were swarming around.

All I knew, and again this is my private personal view: is that the Israelis had a right to be in the southern part of Lebanon.
They were the Occuping force.
As an Occuping force they actually had rights. But also duties.

I'm going to ask around with some of my friends that server before me down there to see if they have some positive stories about the IDF.
There are some, that much I know. Specially from the first year.

But IDFM 203: you must remember. hen I was there, the UNIFIL had already been there for 8 years. And I was just a Private. No Colonel or General would fill me in with the big picture.
I was quite lucky, cause my platoon could travel in the whole of AO of UNIFIL on different missions. But again. I was just a small pawn in this huge game of chaotic international chess.

OldRecon
02-26-2004, 04:44 PM
SLA and Israeli Defence Forces were one and the same it seems in Lebanon. Equipped paid and commanded by Israelis Forces.
I don't hate people of Jewish faith I just dislike the actions of Israel in Lebanon.
Im afraid I don't have access to Mosad's intelligence files perhaps if you contact them they will kindly pass on some of the details that you request untill then you must accept that Israel is guilty of crimes against Humanity in the Republic of Lebanon.
Just accept the fact that Israel committed war crimes the European Union has accepted this why can't you?

rofl rofl rofl

"SLA and Israeli Defence Forces were one and the same it seems in Lebanon. Equipped paid and commanded by Israelis Forces." - where did you hear that?

SLA was made out of Christian people who defended themself from the typical Muslim madness in the Middle east... (and Palestinian gangs of rubbers, thiefs and rapists - which is what they do best)


Republic of Lebanon? Republic of Syria, maybe.

Well in fact many of the grunts in the DFF were shiites, while NCO's/officers generaly were christian and many of the GSS/SLA-security people were druze (as X-ray and Victor) (in our AO at least).
As for Palestinian attrocities against Lebanese civilians, in the area where I was stationed, the only firm instance that I know of is the village of Kaukaba. Otherwise I understand the PLO became unpopular with the locals because they attracted bombs from the Israeli air force (the mouchtar of Cheeba keeping them out al together).

Ichhabe
02-26-2004, 05:07 PM
citizen-k said:


Middle finger? NOW THATS WHAT I CALL EVIL!!!

I could fill in more on that topic.

But for now I either have video or any other evidence to show.

And if I were able to take you back in a time machine, you probably still would call me a liar.


California Joe said:


Maybe his view was limited.

It was quite limited. I was just a Private, and I could only be at one place at any given moment.


I agree that his view is decidedly one sided. Maybe he has an axe to grind.

I see it now that it could be "one sided". That was never my intention.
The problem was that the Hezbollah didn't operate in our Area of Operation that much. But there are some stories that I can tell about.
And I don't want to tell stories that have come to my attention third handed. Noone's gonna belive them... hehe. ;)
But whatever stories I come up with, I do not have neither an axe or a knife to grind against Israel or the IDF.


Opinions get passed as facts.

Not from me I can tell you.
I try on my best account to tell what I saw, experienced and witnessesed while being down there. And that without being biased. (But that ain't always easy I tell you.)

Javehn
02-26-2004, 05:17 PM
Now , if you allready here , tell more stories and facts . I still want to hear about the arty bombardments .

Ichhabe
02-26-2004, 05:47 PM
First to balance it up a little... ;)

The night of the Hizbollah.

One night the guy up in the OP-tower phoned down to our mess hall. Saying that some crazy **** was going on at the IDF Camp 55. This IDF base was on the oposite side of the valley that our camp was in.
We all went out to have a look. It was pitch dark outside and we all looked in the direction of the IDF Camp.

We could see about 150-200 lights flashing and that those light got closer and closer towards the IDF Camp.
It didn't take a geniious to know that this was an attack on the Israeli camp.
But has the attackers got nearer and nearer, the flashes were fewer and fewer. Untill we could see maybe about 15-20. Then it got compleatly silent and totally dark.
We watched this "show" for about 5 minutes. whle some had a beer or a coke. It was quite a bizarre situation to be in.

The next day we got the report on what had happened. About 200 Hizbollahs had attacked the IDF camp because they had gotten a message that the Garden of Allah was about to get overcrowded. So if there ever was a time to be a martyre, well... Then that time was now. It was soon to be a sign on the Gate that said; Sorry, no more space.

After that message, there were some more attacks and also the IED's increased all over the UNIFIL AO. Specially down in the Irish AO.


I can also tell you shortly about the Pick Up truck that we got our hands on in 1986. It was stopped right out side of Kawkaba with 325 kilo of Russian TNT. The driver had a realese button in the seat next to him, with the blasting caps inside the TNT. The target was probably the IDF HQ up in Marsjayoun.
We, the UNIFIL succseded to prevent that attack. (We had a hell of a job emptying that Pick up.)

OldRecon
02-26-2004, 06:05 PM
Argyll said:


and again you make a comment about how nice it would be to hear a nice story about the IDF for a change,maybe these guys simply did not see it that way,who knows,ask them,if they did not see any then it does not make them out to be liars or anything like it.


Nice stories about the IDF?!? Sorry, that is a hard one.

And this comes from one that changed his sympathy towards the Israelis in 1987 on his second tour.

There is one thing that I regret from my service in Lebanon. That is that I never walked over to talk with Israeli soldiers when we were up close to them. ( I did visit the SLA-house besides 4-26. Will come back to that story later.)
The "problem" as I saw it, was that it seemed liked the IDF-soldiers had an agressive stance toward us UNIFIL-soldiers that I never understood.
They never cheared at us, never smiled or waved. Never saluted or did things that seemed like that they aknowledged our presence in the area.

(Before going any further here: This is what I observed and how I interpreted the situation. I may be wrong, but it is how I saw that at that time.)

The first time I met soldiers of the IDF, I waved and smiled at them. Their reply: The middle finger.

Second time, I just waved. Reply: Middle finger. And of course, both times also the evil eye.

So I soon learned to just ignore Israeli soldiers. When we met them on the road, we also started to give them the evil eye.
When we met them inside UN-check post we had a tug of war on whom to back out so the other side could pass through first.

All this may sound childish to them that wasn't there. But it was like som "King of the Hill"-competition that the IDF of course won in 95 % of the times. But we liked to make some sort of resistance so they would know that we were not to push around on their delight.

If we met them on foot patrols, it sometimes looked like a pack of tom cats walking around and measuring eachother. Funny now, but back in those days just a sparkle could be enough for the situation to get out of hands.

So, sorry to say that I don't have much nice to say about the IDF except that we had the highest respect for them. We knew what they were capable of doing. We knew that they would do it. And sometimes they did...

Can only aggree with IchHabe, though in my time we were more or less told from the outset by those going home to ignore the IDF as much as possible ("it's best that way son, believe me", and unfortunately I must say that was good advice).
As towards the civilians in the area, in my time the IDF had a rather ****ounced "better safe than sorry" attitude. I.e. if you were a local male, it would f.ex. not be very wise to drive around in your car alone (you could easily be interpreted as suicidal for that).
IDF maybe saved a couple of soldiers that way, but overall long-term it didn't to the Israeli cause much good in the area.
As 1) It aggravated the alienation between the locals and the IDF, 2) That sort of attitude also smelled of fear a long way (I think the locals definitely lost some of their respect for you there).
In my time also the elements we had most frequent contact (and brushes) with were the local DFF and GSS guys.
Though if the IDF had a chance to show "who was boss" they more often than not wouldn't abstain from it. Then we sort of would nag back as best we could, with like driving up as close as we could behind the vehicle they used to obstruct our passage on a road f.ex.
But generaly we would air our fristrations with IDF by baptising our mascots with politicaly uncorrect names like Yassir (a turtle) and Adolf (a scorpion and a real mean one at that. Killed and ate all his rivals in the perspex box we kept him in. When at last he passed off too, we burried him with full military honours, with a flag draped matchbox as coffin, thre salvoes and all :))
On the other hand on one occasion one of my platoon got wind of that some of the IDF stationed at PV-68 (above Kaukaba) were being rotated home back through "the good gate" at metullah on a certain day (don't ask me how??) so he bought a bag of pistachi nuts, choccolate bars and soft drinks and handed the stuff to the guys as they went past in their Zeldas. And I remember the guys looked rather puzzled and dumbstruck when he handed them the goodies (we had rather fun with that :D).

citizen-k
02-26-2004, 06:05 PM
citizen-k said:


Middle finger? NOW THATS WHAT I CALL EVIL!!!

I could fill in more on that topic.

But for now I either have video or any other evidence to show.

And if I were able to take you back in a time machine, you probably still would call me a liar.


California Joe said:


Maybe his view was limited.

It was quite limited. I was just a Private, and I could only be at one place at any given moment.


I agree that his view is decidedly one sided. Maybe he has an axe to grind.

I see it now that it could be "one sided". That was never my intention.
The problem was that the Hezbollah didn't operate in our Area of Operation that much. But there are some stories that I can tell about.
And I don't want to tell stories that have come to my attention third handed. Noone's gonna belive them... hehe. ;)
But whatever stories I come up with, I do not have neither an axe or a knife to grind against Israel or the IDF.


Opinions get passed as facts.

Not from me I can tell you.
I try on my best account to tell what I saw, experienced and witnessesed while being down there. And that without being biased. (But that ain't always easy I tell you.)

I didn't say you lied - I said that a middle finger is not a reason to hate someone.

You represented the UN, which is not considered to be neutral in Israel - and thats why you got to see the middle finger.

(Getting out of Egypt rings a bell?)

Since I had many lunches with UN and IDF officers I know for a fact that the IDF's official policy is NOT anti-UN, But you can't blame the average Israeli for not likeing the UN - it's quite obvious why.

citizen-k
02-26-2004, 06:16 PM
Argyll said:


and again you make a comment about how nice it would be to hear a nice story about the IDF for a change,maybe these guys simply did not see it that way,who knows,ask them,if they did not see any then it does not make them out to be liars or anything like it.


Nice stories about the IDF?!? Sorry, that is a hard one.

And this comes from one that changed his sympathy towards the Israelis in 1987 on his second tour.

There is one thing that I regret from my service in Lebanon. That is that I never walked over to talk with Israeli soldiers when we were up close to them. ( I did visit the SLA-house besides 4-26. Will come back to that story later.)
The "problem" as I saw it, was that it seemed liked the IDF-soldiers had an agressive stance toward us UNIFIL-soldiers that I never understood.
They never cheared at us, never smiled or waved. Never saluted or did things that seemed like that they aknowledged our presence in the area.

(Before going any further here: This is what I observed and how I interpreted the situation. I may be wrong, but it is how I saw that at that time.)

The first time I met soldiers of the IDF, I waved and smiled at them. Their reply: The middle finger.

Second time, I just waved. Reply: Middle finger. And of course, both times also the evil eye.

So I soon learned to just ignore Israeli soldiers. When we met them on the road, we also started to give them the evil eye.
When we met them inside UN-check post we had a tug of war on whom to back out so the other side could pass through first.

All this may sound childish to them that wasn't there. But it was like som "King of the Hill"-competition that the IDF of course won in 95 % of the times. But we liked to make some sort of resistance so they would know that we were not to push around on their delight.

If we met them on foot patrols, it sometimes looked like a pack of tom cats walking around and measuring eachother. Funny now, but back in those days just a sparkle could be enough for the situation to get out of hands.

So, sorry to say that I don't have much nice to say about the IDF except that we had the highest respect for them. We knew what they were capable of doing. We knew that they would do it. And sometimes they did...

Can only aggree with IchHabe, though in my time we were more or less told from the outset by those going home to ignore the IDF as much as possible ("it's best that way son, believe me", and unfortunately I must say that was good advice).
As towards the civilians in the area, in my time the IDF had a rather ****ounced "better safe than sorry" attitude. I.e. if you were a local male, it would f.ex. not be very wise to drive around in your car alone (you could easily be interpreted as suicidal for that).
IDF maybe saved a couple of soldiers that way, but overall long-term it didn't to the Israeli cause much good in the area.
As 1) It aggravated the alienation between the locals and the IDF, 2) That sort of attitude also smelled of fear a long way (I think the locals definitely lost some of their respect for you there).
In my time also the elements we had most frequent contact (and brushes) with were the local DFF and GSS guys.
Though if the IDF had a chance to show "who was boss" they more often than not wouldn't abstain from it. Then we sort of would nag back as best we could, with like driving up as close as we could behind the vehicle they used to obstruct our passage on a road f.ex.
But generaly we would air our fristrations with IDF by baptising our mascots with politicaly uncorrect names like Yassir (a turtle) and Adolf (a scorpion and a real mean one at that. Killed and ate all his rivals in the perspex box we kept him in. When at last he passed off too, we burried him with full military honours, with a flag draped matchbox as coffin, thre salvoes and all :))
On the other hand on one occasion one of my platoon got wind of that some of the IDF stationed at PV-68 (above Kaukaba) were being rotated home back through "the good gate" at metullah on a certain day (don't ask me how??) so he bought a bag of pistachi nuts, choccolate bars and soft drinks and handed the stuff to the guys as they went past in their Zeldas. And I remember the guys looked rather puzzled and dumbstruck when he handed them the goodies (we had rather fun with that :D).

Just wanted to add that the "good gate" (we call it "the good fence") was opened by my uncle in order to help the SL population so they can get better health care and jobs in Israel. (It all started because of a girl who had to have a complicated surgery)

One?
02-26-2004, 08:54 PM
First to balance it up a little... ;)

The night of the Hizbollah.

One night the guy up in the OP-tower phoned down to our mess hall. Saying that some crazy **** was going on at the IDF Camp 55. This IDF base was on the oposite side of the valley that our camp was in.
We all went out to have a look. It was pitch dark outside and we all looked in the direction of the IDF Camp.

We could see about 150-200 lights flashing and that those light got closer and closer towards the IDF Camp.
It didn't take a geniious to know that this was an attack on the Israeli camp.
But has the attackers got nearer and nearer, the flashes were fewer and fewer. Untill we could see maybe about 15-20. Then it got compleatly silent and totally dark.
We watched this "show" for about 5 minutes. whle some had a beer or a coke. It was quite a bizarre situation to be in.

The next day we got the report on what had happened. About 200 Hizbollahs had attacked the IDF camp because they had gotten a message that the Garden of Allah was about to get overcrowded. So if there ever was a time to be a martyre, well... Then that time was now. It was soon to be a sign on the Gate that said; Sorry, no more space.

After that message, there were some more attacks and also the IED's increased all over the UNIFIL AO. Specially down in the Irish AO.


I can also tell you shortly about the Pick Up truck that we got our hands on in 1986. It was stopped right out side of Kawkaba with 325 kilo of Russian TNT. The driver had a realese button in the seat next to him, with the blasting caps inside the TNT. The target was probably the IDF HQ up in Marsjayoun.
We, the UNIFIL succseded to prevent that attack. (We had a hell of a job emptying that Pick up.)


And when exactly did this happen? Year?

PS: muslims don't believe that there is a night where heaven gets overcrowded. So please don't make up your own facts :)

Ichhabe
02-27-2004, 02:40 AM
citizen-k said:


I didn't say you lied - I said that a middle finger is not a reason to hate someone.


Hate? Where in my postings can you see that I put that word in?
I am just curious.


(Getting out of Egypt rings a bell?)

Actually,...no. UNEF and UNIFIL is two different missions.

And you do know that when two countries want to wage war, then some few UN-soldiers caught in the middle can't do squat.


One said:


And when exactly did this happen? Year?

In 1986. Ain't sure about the month, but it was in June or July.


PS: muslims don't believe that there is a night where heaven gets overcrowded. So please don't make up your own facts

So you think I sit by the computer and this stuff just pop out of my head just for the heck of it?
I don't state it as facts. We were told by people that had "gathering information" as a daily job. If their information was wrong or not... I do not know.

IDFM203
02-29-2004, 11:13 AM
I was a way for a little while and when I got back I was going to leave this thread and like I have tried before, I was not going to go tit for tat with stories and views on the UN on what the IDF saw and experienced, however I felt like I had to respond to two statements you made.



“Getting out of Egypt rings a bell?)”

Actually,...no. UNEF and UNIFIL is two different missions. hmm yes different missions but the same organization. I mean for example, the U.S. Marines and the U.S. army are different services and do different missions at times, though both are part of the same organization (the U.S. military). The same with the UNEF and UNIFIL, both are part of the UN.


And you do know that when two countries want to wage war, then some few UN-soldiers caught in the middle can't do squat. There was no two countries wanting to make war….it was all one sided!!


The UN pulled out not after any two countries wanted it to leave. Hell Israel never asked nor did it want the UN to leave. It was only Egypt that asked and the UN complied in a heartbeat.

It was only after the UN “surrendered” to Egypt’s demands and pulled out its troops there and then Egypt also later closed off the Straits of Tiran (which is a casus belli for war in itself) and they started purring in troops into the areas that were vacated by the UN and other areas and started to amass large amounts of troops to attack to annihilate Israel (as Egypt’s president Nasser and other Arab leaders openly stated in numerous rallies before the war), only after all that did Israel feel like it had no choice but to (smartly) pre-empt or else face what looked like total destruction or close to it.

So in more direct response to what you said above, Whats fact is………..

There was only one (and the other Arab nations that were amassing troops) country and not two like you said above, that wanted to go to war!!

The UN pulled out at that one countries (Egypt’s) request.

Shalom :D

Javehn
02-29-2004, 11:25 AM
Allright . And meanwhile , i found couple UNIFIL picture directories .

1) http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder1.html
2) http://patrik.unx.nu/unifil/unifil.html (Sweden battalion ) .
3) http://www.veteranen.info/~cedarsouthlebanon/pictures/gallery6/gallery_6.htm(NORBATT - Perhaps your guys , Icchabe , picture from 1988 )

Well , explain some of those pictures , what we see on them .

Hey , check this out , Ichh:
http://patrik.unx.nu/unifil/bilder/idf-m113.jpg
You said IDF soldiers are tough and distant , middle finger showing . Those guys looking pretty nice :P

Ichhabe
02-29-2004, 03:18 PM
IDFM203 said:


There was only one (and the other Arab nations that were amassing troops) country and not two like you said above, that wanted to go to war!!


You just nitpick on that.

War is like tango. You need at least two to do it.

Were did I say that Israel is/was the agressive part?

And when Egypt says to UNEF that their steam roller is comming anyway, either you are there or not...?


To Javehn: That was a very cool picture. Wish I had some in my collection. :D

IDFM203
02-29-2004, 03:47 PM
IDFM203 said:


There was only one (and the other Arab nations that were amassing troops) country and not two like you said above, that wanted to go to war!!


You just nitpick on that.

War is like tango. You need at least two to do it. There is a big difference in two fighting a war, (which is what "war is like tango" is referring to) to two wanting to wage war as you inaccurately stated.

One side wanted to wage war, the other side did not…. its that simple.
There is no shade of gray there; it was black and white so to speak. Egypt (and Syria and others) wanted to wage war, Israel did not!!



Were did I say that Israel is/was the agressive part? it wasn’t about you making a clear case against Israel and I never said you called them the aggressor, however by inaccurately saying like you did that both wanted to go to war, you in the process blurred the truth (whether intentional or unintentional) as if to sound as if both are equally at fault for wanting that war, when in truth again only one did etc…etc…..



And when Egypt says to UNEF that their steam roller is comming anyway, either you are there or not...?
Ok so this brings up a few observations and questions.

A, If they leave as soon as one party asks them too (the UN pulled out without even bringing the matter to the General assembly as was supposed to at least happen), then what were they ever doing there in the first place?

B, Why did they leave and capitulate right after Egypt asked them to?

C, I think you can understand our concerns when every now and then we hear this talk of some that want a UN force to separate the Israeli’s and the Palestinians, without any peace deal signed.

I mean whats stopping the UN from pulling out agian the next time some one asks?


Shalom :D

OldRecon
02-29-2004, 08:30 PM
Allright . And meanwhile , i found couple UNIFIL picture directories .

1) http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder1.html
2) http://patrik.unx.nu/unifil/unifil.html (Sweden battalion ) .
3) http://www.veteranen.info/~cedarsouthlebanon/pictures/gallery6/gallery_6.htm(NORBATT - Perhaps your guys , Icchabe , picture from 1988 )

Well , explain some of those pictures , what we see on them .

Hey , check this out , Ichh:
http://patrik.unx.nu/unifil/bilder/idf-m113.jpg
You said IDF soldiers are tough and distant , middle finger showing . Those guys looking pretty nice :P

As with German language: No rule without an exception.

Now some more pics:

What do they roast here then? (Pig meat I think :lol:)
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/grill.JPG

GSS vs. APC-platoon on the road. Not totaly shure where this is but appear to be somewhere on the road between 4-26 and 4-2B CP's. Probably near Tel Quesi.
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/apc2.JPG

Escort on the road past Adasyeh in the "Watchbend" (Klokkesvingen). Do I hear the kids say: "Hi UN give me raybans, give me raybans" :D
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/klsvingen.JPG

VAB, used by NORBATT for road-convoy escort. As the engine required 5-min warmup before driving, it was unsuitable for emergency response force work. Mobility not comparable with M-113 either. On the other hand it had quite good speed (100 km or thereabout), a good vehicle radio, and could be driven over speedbumps in DFF CP's at 80-90 kph without much adoo :D.
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/vab.JPG

Merkava passing out of blueline. One nasty trick those guys could play on the unknowledgeable of us when passing in blueline, exposing the right hand exhaust outlet for the tanks engine compared to where we would be standing in the road side, was to drive up to you slowly, with engines in low revs, making shure you would wait for them close by the roadside. Then when the exhaust outlet was about level with where you were standing, they would suddenly gun the engine into action and literaly roast you :(. Really fu***'n funny indeed.
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/merkava2.JPG

Above UN position 4-25. If my memory serves me correct the road passing from right to left in the picture is the main road to Hasbayay, 4-26 CP being outside of the left corner of the picture, and the road turning off the main road and winding towards the mountains in the background is the road to Hasbani bridge and B-Coy area beyond.
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/425.JPG

O'boy have I spent many hours here?
4-4B CP looking towards Maryajoun. Incidentaly during the battles between the British and Vichy French forces in this area during WW-2 (1941) the frontline more or less passed from left to right accross the picture out there in the fields between Maryajoun and Ebl el Saqi. The Vichy French held Maryajoun and the British Saqi. The British being unable to dislodge the French forces from Maryayoun, who remained under Vichy control until all Vichy forces were ordered to capitulate, after other British forces had managed to close on Beyrot by way of Damascus.
Mines dating from WW-2 could still be found in this area as a relic from those times.
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/cptjeneste.JPG

Norwegian forces in Bosnia have gained some notoriety lately for shooting dogs. Here someone have enough mercy to finish of a sheep that had been wounded after setting off a mine.
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/henretting.JPG

IDF border patrol. If this pic wasn't taken during a convoy escort mission (most likely on the stretch before entering Adayseh while on the way to A'Taibe) it must have been taken near the Cheeba gates (only other spot where one could get that close to the fence where we normaly operated as far as I can recollect).
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/idfgrensepat.JPG

Escort being halted by a funeral procession in the background of the picture. If the coffin is carried in the blue grey pickup truck it probably is a funeral for a dead DFF or someone with good connections to DFF.
Place sort of looks like Maryayoun with Al Qualya in the background (those two villages sort of almost merged into one). We tended normaly not to drive through Maryayoun, rather prefering the road running to the E/SE of Maryayoun instead.
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/eskorte2.JPG

4-14. This used to be the highest located UN-position in Norbatt for many years. Located in the mountains S/SW of Cheeba (I think).
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/414.JPG

Emergency response team APC's at the ready. Wonder a bit now if that big, rightmost house in the background of this pick was the one being built by the relatives to a local drug smuggling barron that had been locked up in Khiam (for trying to double deal the Israelis, but that's another story...), or if this pick was taken before the building of that house got underway?
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/88.JPG

If it had been up to us, we wouldn't have put up a statue for this guy...
Place: Probably downtown Maryayoun. Wonder if the Hezzies pulled this one down when they moved in after the Israelis?
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/haddad.JPG

Some of the locals. The guy on the left of the pic, and owner of the car, being a sucker with a great sense of humour. During my time his car looked even mor shabby, if I remember correctly it didn't even have a windscreen during my time down there.
The guy on the right appear to be Mr "Antonsen, Everything in cammo" (May be wrong there?).
If there was anything with our own kit we wasnt happy with, like the WW-2 era webbing X-type load bearing straps or bergens, one could buy better US or Israeli gear from guys such as these (goods probably stolen from Leb-army and DFF stores). IDF "bulletproof" rofl flak-wests being one of the more popular items on offer. As for the "bulletproofness" of those west, one of my colleagues volunteered his west for some testing against 9mm rounds fired from a Glock at 25m. Result 5 shots 5 holes rofl.
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/runeramsey.JPG

Inside of Radio Norbatt, the battalion welfare radio station. Played mostly music all day, with some news and interwievs in between. People could call up the radio and wish melodies with some greeting attached etc. Though some tunes were banned from playing (in particular one tune from the British band "The Cure").
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/radionorbatt.JPG

Delta-1??
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/delta1_43_chevy.jpg

The "cheerleaders" of the APC-platoon soccer team prepare for action during an upcoming local soccer-match.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/cheerleaders2.jpg

The APC-platoon drummer boys in action during local soccer match.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/fotball_finale_m113.jpg

A panorama (probably taken from a positon on the "Falcon height")
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/fra414_utsikt_mot_saqi_marjayoun2.jpg

Deployment of emergency response force - Hasbani bridge area.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/hasbani01.jpg

Looks dramatic - Don't know the history behind it - Still hasbani area.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/hasbani02.jpg

IDF artillery firing away from the "Supply camp" position just astride the road from 4-2B cp.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/idf_artillerycamp_firing.jpg

Meeting mechanised unit from Irishbatt.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/irishbatt_ifv.jpg

Some of the local kids having a go at the APC during a market day.
APC-platoon sometimes used to deploy to the market place in AO on such days. Particularly if the GSS were showing up.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/lek_med_intercom_lib_barn_markedsplassen.jpg

APC deployed near 4-14 84 mm RCG Carl Gustav lying on the ground.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/m113_414_operasjon.jpg

Marketplace.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/markedsplass_telquesi.jpg

Mineclearance.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/mineklarering.jpg

Sometime during the late 80's a Norbatt patroll got involved in a mine incident near Blatt wounding 2 soldiers. These pics appear to be of the wounded being evacuated. One of the 2 wounded later commited suicide in a fit of PTSD back in Norway. The threatment he got from the Norwegian public sector after he got home apparently was less than "kosher".
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/mineulykke_blat_bakken_sperre_01.jpg
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/mineulykke_blat_bakken_sperre_02.jpg

Lebanon in winter.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/natur_snow_libanon_bekaa.jpg

APC-platoon morning parade.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/oppstilling_mektropp.jpg

Snap-VCP trouble at the market place.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/preclash_markedsplass.jpg

Post operation.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/retur_etter_414operasjon.jpg

G-3 with Bren magazine. Saqi bog firing range.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/skytebane_20skudderforlite_magasin.jpg

Emergency response operation. Catching up on the tan while lying in wait.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/soling_istilling_414plataa.jpg

This emergency response operation turned into a rather long drawn out affair.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/sovepose_ute.jpg

Think this looks like Hasbaya somewhat???
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/vab_gjennom_landsby.jpg

4-26 CP.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/fredlund/37/Image16.jpg

A bunch of squaddies from 1 plt., A-Coy, Kaukaba. Team OC on the right?? (I was not in that platoon but yet think I reckon the face).
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/fredlund/37/Image3.jpg

4-25. Next stop B-Coy (great pic).
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/fredlund/37/Image30.jpg

UN M-113 tailing IDF Zelda on its way to PV-68 above Kaukaba.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/fredlund/37/Image33.jpg

Bourhouz and part of the Litani river valley. 1. plt. lost a man halfway down there, around November 89.
Poor sob hadn't been in Lebanon for hardly more than a week before he got nicked off :(.
Should be interesting some day to hear the DFF and IDF side of the story from personel of those groupings involved in that incident. Though am afraid that's rather unlikely ever to happen :|.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/fredlund/37/Image17.jpg

OldRecon
03-03-2004, 07:33 PM
More pics.

In memoriam of APC plt.
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/38%20mekvogn.JPG

Another GSS-***** being a nuisance?
This was some years after my time. By this time maybe he was the X-ray?
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/37%20Ali%20Nora.JPG

IDF unit operating in unmarked cars. Maybe having a road conference with GSS elements.
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/37%20idf%20i%20blate.JPG

Clash between UNIFIL and IDF - Saqi
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/38%20Idf%20i%20Saqi%201.JPG

Another pic from same incident
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/38%20Idf%20i%20Saqi%202.JPG

IDF armoured car
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/37%20Bravo%20panser.JPG

4-2 HQ (Camp Eagle?)
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/42.JPG

OP-tower 4-23
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/4-23.JPG

Vinter 4-20
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/420a.JPG

Locking in a culprit with anti-tank crossbeams? Looks like being the gas-station outside Saqi by 4-2B CP with view towards Hasbaya.
(A magnificient beautiful view at sunrise on clear mornings. Assume this pic was taken early in the morning as few people about, angle of shadows, and steel shutters down)
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/bmw.JPG

IDF Cobra flying by.
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/Cobra.JPG

4-2D squad camp (old 4-2B squad camp?)
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/Delta%20Camp.JPG

Memory for a guy I think was killed near 4-23 by a fletchete round from a trigger happy Merkava gunner at the start of a night patrol setting out from 4-23.
(That no more guys were killed in that incident surely a pure wonder. Fortunately a lot of big boulders that could have offered some protection to the rest of the patrol.)
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/gbhagen.JPG

Near Blatt looking towards Maryayoun (looks like that from the silouette in the background)
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/gbhagen2.JPG

Hezbollah Katyusha
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/Hezballah%20bil.JPG

Big house somewhere in Southern Lebanon
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/hus.JPG

IDF patrol near Blatt
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/idfiblate.JPG

Courtesy of Hezbollah
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/Khomeini.JPG

Litani river walley.
(Really beautiful spot. Down there it's literaly garden of Eden. When I pass off to the eternal hunting grounds I hope I can have my ashes laid to rest down there)
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/litani.JPG

Tyre
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/tyr.JPG

Night fireworks (most surely on the Hasbani range?).
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/Nattdemo.JPG

PV-62 (IDF listening post situated inside Israel near the Cheeba gate, or maybe a fortification to SW of Blatt? (don't remember all those details any longer)).
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/pv62.JPG

This must shurely be the most decent looking prefab interior I've ever seen :D
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/stue.JPG

An IDF Sikorsky (S-65?).
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/superpuma.JPG

Handover of AO from Norbatt to Indbatt. Dog plt. demonstration
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0004.JPG

4-2 (Camp Eagle?) Doesn't look like the greenery is grass of species "Meadows seed mix nr. 7" though, as my Battalion CO waxed so lyrical about :lol:.
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0025.jpg

Handover parade Norbatt/Indbatt
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0006.JPG

Another pic from same event (can you believe it a f***in drill square on a once lonely hilltop full of boulders and shrubs, that's called civilization isn't it?).
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0007.JPG

Another pic of civilization. Base comfy on 4-2.
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0024.jpg

Italair Huey.
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0011.jpg

High brass on visit (no doubt related to the handover to the Indians).
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0012.jpg

Dog platoon home.
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0014.jpg

Dog exercise
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0015.jpg

Border with Israel. (Am not completely shure but reminds me a bit of the Cheeba gate. The distance from the main road (point of view) to the gate about the same as in the picture at least as far as I can recollect.)
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0017.jpg

Blowing up a land mine.
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0018.jpg

4-14 OP
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0019.jpg

Cheeba
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0020.jpg

4-2 Mess hall (the sign on the left corner of the building being a good Norwegian joke ;))
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0022.jpg

View of Saqi from 4-2
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0027.jpg

PX :D.
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0028.jpg

Shop in Saqi (In my opinion the amount of money we put into the local economy had a lot to do with the relatively "small amount" of trouble Norbatt suffered during its service in the region).
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0032.jpg

More shopping
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0034.jpg

Still more shopping
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0035.jpg

Gold shop. (Quality of gold/jewelry stuff down there generaly excelent. Many guys used to buy artefacts in gold as gifts for their loved ones at home, and in some instances also for their favourite hookers encountered while on R&R in Israel. Many also bought a so called Lebanon ring made of several hoops wowen in with each other in a puzzle pattern.)
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0037.jpg

Hårek frisør !
(The local barber where we used to get or cut trimmed "helipad-style".)
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0039.jpg

El Khiam prison. A place of quite some notoriety. Used by IDF/DFF for interrogation and detainment of suspected local resistance elements to the Israeli occupation. It may not look much but reputedly was sort of like an iceberg with more floors under ground than above.
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0041.jpg

A closer view!
http://home.no.net/troll66/fnbilder41-filer/0042.jpg

kinghk
03-03-2004, 08:10 PM
What do they roast here then? (Pig meat I think :lol:)
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/grill.JPG



Can't have a BBQ-party without a pig




Norwegian forces in Bosnia have gained some notoriety lately for shooting dogs. Here someone have enough mercy to finish of a sheep that had been wounded after setting off a mine.
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/henretting.JPG



Kosovo, not Bosnia.




G-3 with Bren magazine. Saqi bog firing range.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/Admin/31/skytebane_20skudderforlite_magasin.jpg



Does Bren magazines fit in naturally, or must they be adapted?


http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/fredlund/37/Image17.jpg[/img]

Nice job :)


http://home.online.no/~erlenden/UN-Blat.htm

Noen skulle ha plassert de ansvarlige i IDF for krigsrett, men det kommer vel aldri til å skje. Husker faktisk at jeg så episoden på TV, og da var jeg ikke gamle karen.

OldRecon
03-03-2004, 08:58 PM
Bourhouz and part of the Litani river valley. 1. plt. lost a man halfway down there, around November 89.
Poor sob hadn't been in Lebanon for hardly more than a week before he got nicked off :(.
Should be interesting some day to hear the DFF and IDF side of the story from personel of those groupings involved in that incident. Though am afraid that's rather unlikely ever to happen :|.
http://www.veterannett.com/fotobase/mypics/fredlund/37/Image17.jpg

Nice job :)


http://home.online.no/~erlenden/UN-Blat.htm

Noen skulle ha plassert de ansvarlige i IDF for krigsrett, men det kommer vel aldri til å skje. Husker faktisk at jeg så episoden på TV, og da var jeg ikke gamle karen.

Jeg var i 4-2B lagsleir da det skjedde. Vi hadde sambandet på i oppholdprefaben og trodde først det var snakk om en medevacøvelse, men fant fort ut at det var en skarp hendelse og ikke noe kødd.
Rune ble drept allerede av den første salva på hold, men for sikkerhets skyld gikk de jæ**ene bort og pumpa noen ekstra skudd i ham fra kloss hold. Antakelig var det et hevndrap for han gjøken som strøk med av en rikosjett i Bravo-cp'en uka før.
Etter hendelsen i Bourhoz så var det i hvert fall div. enkeltindivider i Kauk som ikke viste seg i landsbyen før rundt ved neste kontigentskifte 6 mnd etterpå.
Med hensyn til Bravo cp'en kunne det fort ha blitt flere Deffere i kista, ettersom de hadde begynt å kaste håndgranater (WP) mot Alfa-cp'en (dengang egen cp bak Bravo for trafikk ut Saqi rett ved "benser'n").
Hadde de Deffera fått holde på lenger ville ikke gutta hatt noe valg (jeg kom til AO dagen etter, men skulle egentlig vært i AO samme dag). I de nærmeste kontingentene før XXIV hadde det forekommet relativt mange episoder med skremmeskyting (mellom beina eller rundt hodet - tror nestlagføreren min hadde vært igjennom ca. 5 sånne episoder i kont. 23) fra deffere og ikke bare GSS i 4-26 og 4-2b, men det hadde ikke blitt eskalert så langt som til håndgranater fram til det så langt jeg vet.
Et par av de andre gutta i lagsleieren ble hentet inn som forsterkninger i forbindelse med sikringen av medevacen av Rune. Det var mørkt, kaldt og snø/sludd (m.a.o. skikkelig hatevær og tror det tok 2 timer før de fikk ham ut, men som sagt han døde momentant i utgangspunktet så...).
Kont XXIV ble relativt rolig, hvilket jeg egentlig ikke har hatt noe i mot i ettertid.

OldRecon
03-04-2004, 04:12 AM
Nice job :)


http://home.online.no/~erlenden/UN-Blat.htm
Bra og informativ side Kinghk. Enten må en Merkava ha dårligere optikk enn de skryter av. Eller så må skytter'n på den aktuelle vogna ha røyka no' rart.
På det aktuelle tidspunktet hadde jo Norbatt hatt patruljer i det aktuelle området m/hund i hvert fall i mer enn 15 år, så IDF burde egentlig hatt rimelig god oversikt på hva hvor og når i forhold til våre bevegelser i AO.
Tror ikke Hezb' eller noen av de andre "armerte elefantene" i teigen brukte schäferhunder på operasjoner så langt sør som Norbatt heller (om de da bruker bikkjer i det hele tatt), så det burde jo egentlig vært helt soleklart hvem som var på tur.


Noen skulle ha plassert de ansvarlige i IDF for krigsrett, men det kommer vel aldri til å skje. Husker faktisk at jeg så episoden på TV, og da var jeg ikke gamle karen.

Om du tenkter på den dagsnyttreportasjen som viser en FN-soldat i Bravo CP'en som skriker "go back, go back" til en grønnkledt skjeggete "Deffer" ret S/SW av CP'en, så var det en av mentorene mine i troppen de første 2 ukene.
(Jeg var på CP-vakt med ham dagen etter skyteepisoden (min første CP-vakt for øvrig :)). Det var for øvrig i tilknytning til denne clash-episoden at X-ray kom med den "udødelige" replikken "just another dead dog" (om han "Deffer'n som strøk med :lol: ))
Det litt tragiske med episoden var at de hadde hatt mye mer trøbbel med en annen deffer som "bare" ble truffet i foten (yet he squealed like a stressed pig) ved denne clash'en (han som døde hadde de faktisk nesten ikke hatt bråk med før dette i følge veterangutta om jeg husker rett). Hadde det vært rettferdighet i verden burde rollene vært byttet om, og han som bare ble såret burde ha blitt kverket i stedet. But that's life.
(If anyone wonder's what we're talking about, get Mustamato or some Dane to translate. Scandinavians understand each others language pretty well. The stuff we discuss in above postings in "reindeerlanguage", is sort of too personal for me to do in English. I'm sorry :|. When you event. etet it translated I'm shure you will understand ;). And to the information for you arabophoebs/islamophoebs in here, those Arabs involved in discussed incident here were christian maronites. The Mid. East is a lot more than just muslims and jews, so get down there with shut mouth, open ears and eyes and LEARN!)

citizen-k
03-04-2004, 05:42 AM
GREAT PICS!

The houses on the right are Metulla - where I grew up.

This picture was taken in a place that many IDF soldiers know - this is the entrance point to Marg-Iyun and the northern parts of SL (Ayshie, Reichan)

http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/37%20Bravo%20panser.JPG

OldRecon
03-04-2004, 09:47 AM
GREAT PICS!

The houses on the right are Metulla - where I grew up.

This picture was taken in a place that many IDF soldiers know - this is the entrance point to Marg-Iyun and the northern parts of SL (Ayshie, Reichan)

http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/37%20Bravo%20panser.JPG
Once when transit through the gate was delayed because of some problem "up north", we stayed overnight at some kind of family run hotel to SW of Metulla gate. It's rather faded memory now but remember one could look over the border from the place and that they had all sorts of memory plaques for different kinds of military units. Both UN and Israeli.
Otherwise remember the circular (?) snackbar/cafe just behind the Israeli side of the gate, where one could buy long loaves of fresh whitebread stuffed with small fried sausages and cabage salad, and taxi/sherut stop.

Javehn
03-04-2004, 09:47 AM
Old Recon , nice stuff , thanks for tranlation . About your german saying , i would like to think that we were nice as a rule , and not an exception .

One correction , El Hiam was managed by SLA . There were a big court proccess about that matter in Israel , if this facility were run directly by Israeli forces .
I noticed a lot of English writtings , was that common in Lebanon ? In south part , not in center .

This house , i think i perhaps know it . I was called a house of milioner , if it's the one i think about .
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/hus.JPG

Memory for a guy I think was killed near 4-23 by a fletchete round from a trigger happy Merkava gunner at the start of a night patrol setting out from 4-23.

Not trigger happy gunner , but bad command dessicion . Anyways , RIP to that guy .
Have a question , in the picture where IDF and UNIFIL guys fightin , what's that about ?

Now this picture is very very familiar to me , but i can't put a name to the picture . We also knew the numbers of the UN posts in area , but again i can't realte the number here . I have a question , near this area would pass a long highway that had palm trees on his entire length ?
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/425.JPG

citizen-k
03-04-2004, 10:24 AM
GREAT PICS!

The houses on the right are Metulla - where I grew up.

This picture was taken in a place that many IDF soldiers know - this is the entrance point to Marg-Iyun and the northern parts of SL (Ayshie, Reichan)

http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/37%20Bravo%20panser.JPG
Once when transit through the gate was delayed because of some problem "up north", we stayed overnight at some kind of family run hotel to SW of Metulla gate. It's rather faded memory now but remember one could look over the border from the place and that they had all sorts of memory plaques for different kinds of military units. Both UN and Israeli.
Otherwise remember the circular (?) snackbar/cafe just behind the Israeli side of the gate, where one could buy long loaves of fresh whitebread stuffed with small fried sausages and cabage salad, and taxi/sherut stop.

This place is known as "the good fence" which was discussed earlier in this thread. (I think, maybe in another thread...but was talked about a few days ago)

Mr Gently Benevolent
03-04-2004, 11:01 AM
edit

Mr Gently Benevolent
03-04-2004, 11:03 AM
http://patrik.unx.nu/unifil/bilder/idf-m113.jpg
Any of you guys know who makes the DF antenna on the APC and what kind of DF gear the IDF use.

Javehn
03-04-2004, 11:18 AM
All the radio is Tadiran production . Look for Tadiran website (there was allready thread about it ) .

Mr Gently Benevolent
03-04-2004, 12:16 PM
Thanks Javehn for the Tadiran site I see they do military PDA's there is quite a few Israeli companies doing these at the moment.
:)

OldRecon
03-04-2004, 05:56 PM
Old Recon , nice stuff , thanks for tranlation . About your german saying , i would like to think that we were nice as a rule , and not an exception .

One correction , El Hiam was managed by SLA . There were a big court proccess about that matter in Israel , if this facility were run directly by Israeli forces .
I noticed a lot of English writtings , was that common in Lebanon ? In south part , not in center .

This house , i think i perhaps know it . I was called a house of milioner , if it's the one i think about .
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/hus.JPG

Memory for a guy I think was killed near 4-23 by a fletchete round from a trigger happy Merkava gunner at the start of a night patrol setting out from 4-23.

Not trigger happy gunner , but bad command dessicion . Anyways , RIP to that guy .
Have a question , in the picture where IDF and UNIFIL guys fightin , what's that about ?

Now this picture is very very familiar to me , but i can't put a name to the picture . We also knew the numbers of the UN posts in area , but again i can't realte the number here . I have a question , near this area would pass a long highway that had palm trees on his entire length ?
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder1-filer/425.JPG

This pic is taken from Kaukaba area. I guess you would have a somewhat similar view from IDF position PV-68 above Kaukaba (if you have friends who have shown you snaps taken from that area)
And I think you refer to the right road, though to me the trees looked more like willow threes than palms (if my memory serves me correct).
Though to get there as viewed from here you would first have to pass out the left side of the pic and through UN CP 4-26. Then after passing out of UN AO you would after a few clicks encounter an Y crossing, with right/straigth ahead leading to Hasbaya and on the left road who eventualy led to Beyrot (according to the locals) there was a CP manned by DFF.

As for the relations between Israelis and Norbatt, in Lebanon we were, as perhaps explained earlier, sort indifferent to each other for 90% of the time. One just had to I guess, to get sort of along, as the NORBATT mission charter as given by UN sort of wasn't in line with IDF interest of not being looked in the cards by someone external.
Part of our mission brief was, as mentioned earlier, not to block IDF/DFF operations, as long as they were within what UN defined as the "rights of an occupying force". On the other hand we were to monitor and report any operations closely and report if you went outside your rights as occupant and any sort of violence. That could mean following an IDF patrol inside houses where they either did house searches or visited people. Then it would normaly be IDF SOP to try to block us at the door.
That's the reason for the shuffle at the door in the pick above I suppose.
There were also occasions with IDF officers pointing guns at Norbatt soldiers, though such incidents were much more frequent with GSS and DFF in my time at least.
http://home.no.net/troll66/FNbilder-filer/38%20Idf%20i%20Saqi%201.JPG
But most of it in bottom centered around conflicting missions/interests rather than any particular ill feelings perhaps.
The downright bad non-indifferent experiences we had with IDF, like the Merkava exhaust blowtorch trick, mostly happened in Norbatt AO and often the IDF personel involved would be certain "aggro kid" junior leaders that "stuck out" repeatedly in negative fashion in AO (sort of Capt. Sobel types).
On the other hand the sort of positive contact on a personel level one could experience with IDF personel, mostly happened when we were waiting by the Fence at Metullah to pick up some UN personel going north, and there were small units of IDF personel in 1-3 vehicles coming in to pass home again. Sometimes on such occasions a nice chat could develop.
At other times some IDF we were tailing in AO could ask for a cigarette or a lighter to fire up one.
But on the whole it was best for both parties to be indifferent.

One?
03-05-2004, 02:18 AM
Javehn:

Interrogators from the IDF were present most of the time and they sometimes interrogated the lebanese inside the camp. The SLA did the dirty work for the IDF but regarldess if it wasn't for the IDF then the SLA won't exist.

citizen-k
03-05-2004, 04:06 AM
Javehn:

Interrogators from the IDF were present most of the time and they sometimes interrogated the lebanese inside the camp. The SLA did the dirty work for the IDF but regarldess if it wasn't for the IDF then the SLA won't exist.

And if it wasn't for the SLA, SL Chrisitians won't exist.

After you visited Lebanon - can you tell us who is doing Syria's dirty work? (or maybe they do it themselfs?)

Don't forget that SL population was in war long before the IDF got there...

Reading you a person might think Israel turned Lebanon to be what it is and not the Palestinians & Syrians who "invaded" it in the first place.

As for the picture of the house - I think its located east to Nabatiye and was called "the red house" wich was a well known point to so some IDF units.

The house was visible from the Dabsha area or something like that...

OldRecon
03-05-2004, 04:45 AM
Javehn:

Interrogators from the IDF were present most of the time and they sometimes interrogated the lebanese inside the camp. The SLA did the dirty work for the IDF but regarldess if it wasn't for the IDF then the SLA won't exist.

Yep, spot on. Uniforms, vehicles, weaponry and other equipment used by SLA were all supplied by Israel. Also highly doubt if someone from IDF ever took orders from someone in the DFF. During combined DFF/IDF operations it was pretty obvious who was in charge (and that was NOT the DFF).

citizen-k
03-05-2004, 04:55 AM
Javehn:

Interrogators from the IDF were present most of the time and they sometimes interrogated the lebanese inside the camp. The SLA did the dirty work for the IDF but regarldess if it wasn't for the IDF then the SLA won't exist.

Yep, spot on. Uniforms, vehicles, weaponry and other equipment used by SLA were all supplied by Israel. Also highly doubt if someone from IDF ever took orders from someone in the DFF. During combined DFF/IDF operations it was pretty obvious who was in charge (and that was NOT the DFF).

So the IDF helped the christians in Lebanon to protect themselfs from the Palestinian gangs who controled SL before the IDF got there. Whats wrong with that? (And some not Palestinians Muslims who suffered as well)

Not helping - it's our fault (sabra&shatila)
Helping - our fault again :roll:

A famous Israeli movie say (I already said it in here) "In Lebanon, everyone hates everybody - and they all hate us"

So it happen the we helped one part against the others - why not blaming the other parts?

Ichhabe
03-07-2004, 05:48 AM
Visiting the neighbour.

Just next to Kaukaba and the CP 4-26(Blue Line CP) SLA/DFF had a little strong point. It was just on the inside of the Blue Line, and technically they were not supposed to be there.
Anyway, there they were. We had a lot of problems with the SLA/DFF, and specially when they were drunk or high on other substances.
Cause when they were, they shot at the Norwegian UN-forces. The Norwegians was lucky, cause they were terrible marksmen, even when not drunk.

Anyway, some guys in my platoon was curious about these fellas. So one sunday we decided to go visit. After much this and that, there were only two of us that took off.
The problem was that we did not know how they would react when we walked inside their gate. Remember, that when it came to how the mood of the day was for the SLA/DFF chaos theory had to be used.

We approached the gate, and looked at the guard hut. What a surprise. Nobody inside it. We then had a little conference if to procede. Maybe the whole gang was drunk inide the house, and God knew how they would react. But we was very curious, and had came this far, there were no turning back.
Suddenly one of them came out and we got his attention. First he looked at us in disbelife. When we said that we had come for a sunday visit cause after all, they were neighbours, he lightened up. Of course we we were welcomed he said. 30 seconds later we hat got seated, and coffee and tea was in the making.

There we sat, with about 5 SLA/DFF-soldiers, smiling and laughing. As they told us, we were the first to ever visit just for a social call.
Since it was sunday, none of them were drunk. It was all just smiles so we relaxed and started to conversate with them.
They told the must interesting stuff, but we were carefull not to get in to the topic of religion and politics.

After some glasses of tea and smoking some sigarettes, we then got the chance to look at the base and their equipment. What was mostly interesting for us, was to have a look at the two T-55's they had. They showed us the tanks, and even suggested that we had a spin with them. We gracefully said no, cause it would not look good to have two Norwegian UN-soldiers roam around in SLA/DFF-tanks. But we would have loved it. :P

After about 3 hours we left them and had learned that as long as they were sober and in good mood, they were quite some likeable fellows.

Alpha Leader
03-07-2004, 07:21 AM
Hey Guys.
I`m back again after a long holiday.
Much great stuff to read here.Great to see those old pictures of AO and the duty in SL.

Regarding to the fact that some UN soldiers have a so called uneasy relationsship/or bad thaugths about IDF,there should be said that some of us actually have some good talks and almost a friendly relations with the IDF soldier.
I remember that IDF used to drive roadclearence from Kawkabha and down to 4-24 CP.When they did they used to fire some rounds in the air over our possision and we knew that soon they`l be here.
When they stopped just behind our pos we used to talk together.
They told us about Israel and we told them about Vikings and stuff and alot about Sigurd Jorsaldfar the only man hwo successfully invaded Ch.Boufourt.

I have some nice memories about the IDF soldiers and some bad ones.
The bad ones is that they sometimes were "cokky"and had their noses pointed up in the skies.Sometimes they wouldn`t listen to us and then we had verbal and physical disbutes.

But my overall "feeling" for the IDF soldier is that he is a soldier just like i was (but i was wolunteerily in UN)and that they did their job.Thats all.

Some of us UN veterans have a lot more against the Lebanse people than the Israelis beacuse their way that they treat their women and animals.

OLD RECON
The guy`s on the picture is the same that fuc..d up my day in 4-26,
good story from your stay at that place were you saw Nidal.

When were you down there , i was down there in XXV,XXXIX,XL.
I have a lot of pictures but no scanner so i have to talk to some of my friends to help me out and maybe later you may enjoy my pictures.

Hvordan legger jeg ut bilder i forumet?

:D

Javehn
03-07-2004, 08:38 AM
Nice stories , everybody , good job indeed .


When they did they used to fire some rounds in the air over our possision and we knew that soon they`l be here.

Do you know why they did that , or what did you assumed they doing ? I hapend to now why they did that , and i want to hear from you why you thought they did that . That can be one of those things , where one don't understand the deads of another , so he is assuming something wrong .
Anyway , more stories, please .

Alpha Leader
03-07-2004, 12:20 PM
I aint shure of why,but maybe they would "tell" the sorrounding area that their coming and by doing that the armed elements wuold leave?
Or just for the fun of it,or maybe to show who`s in charge :D
Anyway it scared the shi.. out of me the first time ;)
After we spoked to them about they just cept on doing it,but i guess with a smile.
if you know why please let us know.

IDF aslo had a sense of humor.The first night we were in the camp,(IDF knew that there were new soldiers)they"welcomed"us by firing light(mortar)over our camp, 4-25 Squadcamp.It was brigth as daylight.

OldRecon
03-07-2004, 06:02 PM
Hey Guys.
I`m back again after a long holiday.
Much great stuff to read here.Great to see those old pictures of AO and the duty in SL.

Regarding to the fact that some UN soldiers have a so called uneasy relationsship/or bad thaugths about IDF,there should be said that some of us actually have some good talks and almost a friendly relations with the IDF soldier.
I remember that IDF used to drive roadclearence from Kawkabha and down to 4-24 CP.When they did they used to fire some rounds in the air over our possision and we knew that soon they`l be here.
When they stopped just behind our pos we used to talk together.
They told us about Israel and we told them about Vikings and stuff and alot about Sigurd Jorsaldfar the only man hwo successfully invaded Ch.Boufourt.

I have some nice memories about the IDF soldiers and some bad ones.
The bad ones is that they sometimes were "cokky"and had their noses pointed up in the skies.Sometimes they wouldn`t listen to us and then we had verbal and physical disbutes.

But my overall "feeling" for the IDF soldier is that he is a soldier just like i was (but i was wolunteerily in UN)and that they did their job.Thats all.

Some of us UN veterans have a lot more against the Lebanse people than the Israelis beacuse their way that they treat their women and animals.

OLD RECON
The guy`s on the picture is the same that fuc..d up my day in 4-26,
good story from your stay at that place were you saw Nidal.

When were you down there , i was down there in XXV,XXXIX,XL.
I have a lot of pictures but no scanner so i have to talk to some of my friends to help me out and maybe later you may enjoy my pictures.

Hvordan legger jeg ut bilder i forumet?

:D

Well, I only was there in XXIV. Sort of gambled on that you had been in XXV, and thus could confirm wether X-ray had still been in AO during that summer (and thereby confirming that I had almost knifed the wrong guy).
That Interrail thing was a pretty "animal" moment, but fortunately haven't had any similar experiences since.
Often wondered about applying for another tour down there, but sort of never came to it.
As for putting up pics here you can apply for a picture account on www.veterannett.com and then link them in here with the img function.
(The main driving force behind that site is a great guy, who do a lot for fellow veterans.)
By coincidence there was some pics on that site of the DANOR battalion in Gaza, and one of the guys in some of those pics were the husband of a colleague of mine at where I work nowdays (it's a small world :)).

Alpha Leader
03-07-2004, 06:49 PM
OldRecon
Thanks a lot.
Well,you know x-ray traveled much so we never can tell.
I`m gonna check out the link to veterannett and se if i can get some pictures scanned and place them here for you enjoiment.

It is a small world(or just few Norwegians) i happend to run into one of my squadmates on a airplane to the states , after ten years he still recongnized me.Man we were drunk, it was a 12 hours fligth........

I still have contact with some of them.We meet on regular basis and usually in the summertime.

I also done duty in Macedonia for one year, and met other former UNIFIL soldiers,they say that we are the new Norwegian sailor.We travel the world and make good money just like the sailors.
Maybe they right.
:P

OldRecon
03-07-2004, 06:56 PM
Javehn:

Interrogators from the IDF were present most of the time and they sometimes interrogated the lebanese inside the camp. The SLA did the dirty work for the IDF but regarldess if it wasn't for the IDF then the SLA won't exist.

Yep, spot on. Uniforms, vehicles, weaponry and other equipment used by SLA were all supplied by Israel. Also highly doubt if someone from IDF ever took orders from someone in the DFF. During combined DFF/IDF operations it was pretty obvious who was in charge (and that was NOT the DFF).

So the IDF helped the christians in Lebanon to protect themselfs from the Palestinian gangs who controled SL before the IDF got there. Whats wrong with that? (And some not Palestinians Muslims who suffered as well)

Not helping - it's our fault (sabra&shatila)
Helping - our fault again :roll:

A famous Israeli movie say (I already said it in here) "In Lebanon, everyone hates everybody - and they all hate us"

So it happen the we helped one part against the others - why not blaming the other parts?

Well, I can both understand your longing for true security and the sort of daily anxiety you perhaps live with, as well as why many Arabs are pissed off with the aftermath result of the great revolt against the Turks during WW-I.
It's easy to critizise Israel nowdays (and personaly I must admit that I'm one of those who think your approach to the Intifada and the Palestinians haven't been too enlightened), yet it was our forefathers (at least our leaders back then) who woted through the recognition of the Jewish state of Israel in 1948. And thus we also carry a responsibility for what's going on down there at yours.
Considering that the main supporters for the Palestinian cause in Western Europe are often Euro-communists or members of similar left wing orientated groups, it's sort an irony that Stalin's quiet consent, with regards to shipment of Chzech made arms to Israel, was instrumental to the survival of the Jewish state in 1948.
And I don't think there were that many communists back then who really had any opinions for or against the state of Israel either. Thus even members of those political factions carry a responsibility for the present state of affairs in the region (in negative terms for the Arabs that they otherwise nowdays champion :lol:).
As for the future I guess there will only be two ways out. Either Armageddon or a Northern-Ireland type of settlement (that unfortunately demand a certain level of war-weariness on both sides that does not seem to have been reached yet).
As for the Sabra & Shatila, maybe the troubles you would have got from the Maronite Fallange, had you intervened against or prevented those incidents, would have been rather smaller than the reaction those incidents sparked among the Shiites of Southern Lebanon??? Up until then you had sort of managed to stay out of the Lebanese civil war in a way that could attract the wrath of any particular faction.
As for the treatment of Palestinians living in neighbouring Arab countries, a lot of negative can be said about that also. Particularly in Lebanon, where today they are generaly treated as stateless parias with allmost no rights.
Amongst other things they cannot apply for ordinary legal jobs to fend for themselves and their families. From what I've read recently legal jobs or job permits is reserved for "Lebanese" only.

One?
03-07-2004, 11:37 PM
citizen-k its alright to help (like the US is doing in haiti), but not when you strengthen one side on the other knowing very well that those same people you are helping are willing to commit genocide. You only helped the maronites because you thought you could come to a peace agreement with them.

The weapons given by the IDF were used to kill other lebanese (who were fighting the IDF occupation). So you used them for your own good. And when you were done with them (2000) you let them rot (that was nice actualy).


Just so I don't seem like an ******* the maronites also got weapons from saddam. So you can blame him too :)



A famous Israeli movie say (I already said it in here) "In Lebanon, everyone hates everybody - and they all hate us"

and you didn't like that.....