The Swedish Navy - Your Thoughts

[Resurrection]

I'm wondering what you guys think of it. It's a pretty broad topic so I thought I'd start it off with a few questions:


1. Is it fine as it is? Or would it be more suitable as a large, blue water navy given today's situation and the massive re-organization of the Swedish Armed Forces currently taking place? Or maybe not a large, blue water navy but just a more internationally-inclined one? Should our navy participate in operations such as Active Endeavour?

2. What do you think of the Visby class corvettes? Are they worth it? Keep in mind that the Visby has its roots from the Cold War and was designed along the concept of coastal defense against a Soviet invasion and not today's more international way of thinking.

3. Do we need larger ships than the HSwMS Karlskrona (http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9641/hmskarlskrona8ly.jpg) / HSwMS Belos (http://www.1ubflj.mil.se/images/local/belos-hb.jpg)? Do we need more ships? If so, what types? And if so, should we purchase an existing design or develop an own?

4. Is the navy in need of a logistics ship to support Swedish and other coalition forces abroad? How about a modular amphibious assault ship that could serve a military purpose (amphibious landings, troop/material transport, command and control, military hospital ship, protecting important shipping lanes from sea pirates, etc.) and at the same time be able to help the civilian population with things such as oil spills, evacuation of refugees during a civil war, or by providing medical care? I'm guessing being that multi-purpose would be quite cost-effective.

5. How about our submarine fleet? Should it be kept alive or scrapped like the Danish one? Do we need more/less submarines?

[CC]

4. The Navy might not need it - but the Defence Forces do...

It's almost humiliating that we haven't got one already. For years there have been talks of modernizing our forces and of the international arena being prioritized.

Well,
where are our strategic lift capabilities???

[Greek soldier]

I'm wondering what you guys think of it. It's a pretty broad topic so I thought I'd start it off with a few questions:


1. Is it fine as it is? Or would it be more suitable as a large, blue water navy given today's situation and the massive re-organization of the Swedish Armed Forces currently taking place? Or maybe not a large, blue water navy but just a more internationally-inclined one? Should our navy participate in operations such as Active Endeavour?

2. What do you think of the Visby class corvettes? Are they worth it? Keep in mind that the Visby has its roots from the Cold War and was designed along the concept of coastal defense against a Soviet invasion and not today's more international way of thinking.

3. Do we need larger ships than the HSwMS Karlskrona (http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9641/hmskarlskrona8ly.jpg) / HSwMS Belos (http://www.1ubflj.mil.se/images/local/belos-hb.jpg)? Do we need more ships? If so, what types? And if so, should we purchase an existing design or develop an own?

4. Is the navy in need of a logistics ship to support Swedish and other coalition forces abroad? How about a modular amphibious assault ship that could serve a military purpose (amphibious landings, troop/material transport, command and control, military hospital ship, protecting important shipping lanes from sea pirates, etc.) and at the same time be able to help the civilian population with things such as oil spills, evacuation of refugees during a civil war, or by providing medical care? I'm guessing being that multi-purpose would be quite cost-effective.

5. How about our submarine fleet? Should it be kept alive or scrapped like the Danish one? Do we need more/less submarines?

1) If you want to become a superpower, buy a CVF from the UK :)

2) OF COURSE THEY ARE WORTH IT!! Now that I have it as my avatar p-)
Just install Aster 15 and it's OK.

3) Yes. You need 2 LPD "Rotterdam", 2 LSV (support vessels) "Etna", and 2 AUSTAL catamarans. Oops, I hear FMV's stomach and Goran Persson's screams LOL. Unless you go for the Danish "Absalon" class command ships

4) Just said 2 "Etna". Buy another one for Hospital Vessel... And 4 Zubrs (I will call the Greek Minster of Defence to send 2 for training!). Or ask the Finnish to built 3 Tuulis

5) Scrap the submarine fleet???? I think they need to go to the hospital. A19 "Gotland" made USN dizzy.

[Resurrection]

4. The Navy might not need it - but the Defence Forces do...

It's almost humiliating that we haven't got one already. For years there have been talks of modernizing our forces and of the international arena being prioritized.

Well,
where are our strategic lift capabilities???

Yeah man I totally agree with you, it's nice to see that someone else shares my opinion. And not only sea strategic lift capabilities, but air too.



1) If you want to become a superpower, buy a CVF from the UK :-)

2) OF COURSE THEY ARE WORTH IT!! Now that I have it as my avatar p-)
Just install Aster 15 and it's OK.

3) Yes. You need 2 LPD "Rotterdam", 2 LSV (support vessels) "Etna", and 2 AUSTAL catamarans. Oops, I hear FMV's stomach and Goran Persson's screams LOL. Unless you go for the Danish "Absalon" class command ships

4) Just said 2 "Etna". Buy another one for Hospital Vessel... And 4 Zubrs (I will call the Greek Minster of Defence to send 2 for training!). Or ask the Finnish to built 3 Tuulis

5) Scrap the submarine fleet???? I think they need to go to the hospital. A19 "Gotland" made USN dizzy.

Hahaha that's a freakin' huge and expensive wish list you've got there Greek soldier. :p How does the HSV (High Speed Vessel) concept sound for an amphibious assault ship? Would it be something that Sweden might be interested in and benefit from?

http://www.nwdc.navy.mil/Concepts/Sea_Basing/ConceptsHSV.aspx

[Greek soldier]

Actually HSV is for long distances and it's much more faster than an LPD. The problem is however that an HSV cannot carry LCAC or Mk10 landing crafts.

BTW, it came to my mind this also

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/skycat/images/SkyCat_1.jpg (http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/skycat/index.html#skycat1)

:) :)

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/skycat/

For the CVF, design a Naval Gripen too!

[Resurrection]

Pretty cool idea in theory, but as with all big and slow-moving flying objects it will be very vulnerable to anti-aircraft threats such as missiles and AA guns. Even small arms fire could be a threat.

Lol you make it sound like we would need to design a whole new aircraft. ;) I don't know if you know this or not, but a pilot has already successfully landed an un-modified Gripen on an USN aircraft carrier. Un-modified meaning no arrestor hooks or anything like that. Even though this was all done in a simulator, it does show something.


Anyway... back to the Swedish navy. :p

[Greek soldier]

Any news for the Stridsbat NY??

[Resurrection]

Nothing except for what you posted the other day. That funding had been approved for the project.

[Greek soldier]

Truly, are you Swedes thinking of an Amphibious Force with LPDs or just "in your dreams pal"?? I mean, you have a strong fleet...

[sp2c]

LPD's would be nice, I know for a fact that there have been cb90's operating with hrms Rotterdam on exercises but I don't know if they were norwegian or swedish

I think there were pictures too somewhere ... or give us a couple of your combat boats since our government doesn't really want to spent money on the military

[Resurrection]

A strong fleet? Not really... I mean if you take away the Visby corvettes it wouldn't be very impressive. Especially when comparing our navy to Norway's and Finland's who have not (yet) been affected by the huge budget cuts that Sweden has.

I'm not really sure on what the navy's future plans are, they haven't really talked much about it. We do however have plans for forming an amphibious task unit composed of Swedish and Finnish coastal rangers and they could logically benefit from an LPD.

Also, FOI (Swedish Defence Research Agency) has carried out a study on an amphibious assault ship and if it's something that the Swedish Armed Forces would need. After doing some research, they found that we do indeed need one and they fully support purchasing such a ship. As I've understood it, the only thing that's preventing us from getting an amphibious assault ship is politics and obviously cost.

[Resurrection]

LPD's would be nice, I know for a fact that there have been cb90's operating with hrms Rotterdam on exercises but I don't know if they were norwegian or swedish

I think there were pictures too somewhere ... or give us a couple of your combat boats since our government doesn't really want to spent money on the military

I knew these pictures would become useful some day. They are Swedish CB90s.

http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/8721/040611inpassering8uz.th.jpg (http://img472.imageshack.us/my.php?image=040611inpassering8uz.jpg)

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/4604/0406143strb0ti.th.jpg (http://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0406143strb0ti.jpg)

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7127/040614entry6jy.th.jpg (http://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=040614entry6jy.jpg)

[Greek soldier]

Take an LST "Jason" class (these are suitable for Sweden I guess)

http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/Ships%20Photos/L-173.JPG

A Pomornik Air-Cushion Hovercraft (believe me, it's BIG!)

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=32379

http://www.almaz.spb.ru/home/pictures/rainbow.jpg

http://legion.wplus.net/guide/navy/nk/dk/12322-15.jpg

And the beautiful "Prometheus" LSV (Fincantieri Etna-recommended to all navies!)

http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/images/ships/A_374pic3.jpg

You Dutch have made an trully powerful LPD class, the ENFORCER SERIES.

[Resurrection]

What I described in question #4 was also exactly what FOI thought would be the most suitable for Sweden. :)

[Greek soldier]

from getting an amphibious assault ship is politics and obviously cost

A "Rotterdam" LPD costs $200,000,000. That's not bad. The French LPD "Sirocco" is about the same.

Politics... Remeber in an another thread what I said: "When you mix politics with military you get a nice salad".

[Resurrection]

Well when I see an LPD I automatically think it's expensive especially for a country like Sweden just because of it's sheer size among other things. :p Haha yeah I remember, it's just too bad that our leftist government has to get in the way for so many things when it comes to the military.

[Nizark]

they have one?

[Resurrection]

Who has what?

[EsoognomEhT]

Buy CVF off us?! We'll be ****ing lucky to actually get them

[TuNeRsHaRk]

my thoughts are the norwegian navy could kick the swedish navys ass Anyday

haha lol jk i love the swedes

[signatory]

Well when I see an LPD I automatically think it's expensive especially for a country like Sweden just because of it's sheer size among other things. :p Haha yeah I remember, it's just too bad that our leftist government has to get in the way for so many things when it comes to the military.

While not truly leftist anymore... it is however the Social Democrats that have spent the bulk of tax money on the military (especially on high-status projects in the private industry) and not Right-Wing parties (how could they?) so I wouldn't hope too much on the Right-Wing as a pro-military alliance although clearly they would not cause the same mess as the recent years of Green/left party influence in defense politics.

The alliance apparently want to let the military spend their money best they can, without too much political influence. What is budgeted for the military they get to keep. Not like today when the gov suddenly might cut into a 4-year budget to finance something else. Under a Right-wing alliance though, they should not expect big government sponsored projects just to keep SAAB alive, but they can expect more money towards international operations where not enough money is spent today.

The military just ordered 3 big hover crafts to the AmfBat which can be used to transport troops/vehicles but I question that decision...can't really see many scenarios for them to be put to use today. But sure they add the container/vehicle lift capability the amfbat lack today. Maybe they too will catch a ride on NATO assault ships.

And tbh I think that will be and probably should be the solution for the Amfbat to borrow resources as we need them. Like I've said in the past, any Amphibious/Naval operation would never be commanded by Sweden anyway. We would always be a unit within a larger project. It doesn't make sense to build layer upon layer of resources in europe when we can co-operate more.

The NBG is not even supposed to be much of a amphibious assault group so this is not what we should worry about too much. I think with the current flexible container system and civilian RoRo ships (either by Stena or Wallenius or any other Swedish company, hopefully they will sign a readiness contract) will do just nicely. The amphibious ships of LPD class wouldn't be able to load everything anyway. Far from it.

[sp2c]

I knew these pictures would become useful some day. They are Swedish CB90s.

http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/8721/040611inpassering8uz.th.jpg (http://img472.imageshack.us/my.php?image=040611inpassering8uz.jpg)

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/4604/0406143strb0ti.th.jpg (http://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0406143strb0ti.jpg)

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7127/040614entry6jy.th.jpg (http://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=040614entry6jy.jpg)
0000000ooooww so nice :D
/me cries like a little girl :)

so it can take 6 cb90's?
that'll scare away whole boatloads of pirates ... together with marine commando'ish troops and nh90's :D




You Dutch have made an trully powerful LPD class, the ENFORCER SERIES.

apperantly the brits keep making fun of it, supposedly it can allmost take an entire marine battallion ... but not really
can't take dutch army trucks either so they had to buy unimogs, Rotterdam had whole loads of tiny little problems due to stupid politics apperantly!!
nothing catastrophic but still ... but the new LPD should've adressed them :)

and there may be something very interesting coming next but that's still very hush hush

[signatory]

0000000ooooww so nice :D



p-)

Here's older photos. Strong Resolve 2002. Swedish amfbat was the invasion force and catched a ride on USS Tortuga.

http://www.strongresolve.mil.se/images/local/sr02-batarkopplade.jpg
http://www.strongresolve.mil.se/images/local/sr02-3batarunderinkorning.jpg
http://www.strongresolve.mil.se/images/local/usstortuga4.jpg

They loaded up 15 Combat Boat 90 that time.
Considering the CB90 doesn't have a propeller it's a pretty nice match. p-)

[sp2c]

15!!!

how much bigger is uss tortuga when compared to hrms rotterdam?

edit: apperantly they are quite similar in size .. how much cb90's do you think will fit in hrms Rotterdam?

[signatory]

15!!!

how much bigger is uss tortuga when compared to hrms rotterdam?

Oh not much bigger in lenght but it's wider (easy to see from the two pics above) and doesn't have hangars for choppers like the Rotterdam.

[sp2c]

0 yeah the hangar!

didn't think of that, thanks ... but that's a must have especially for a smaller navy

[Greek soldier]

0000000ooooww so nice :D
/me cries like a little girl :)

so it can take 6 cb90's?
that'll scare away whole boatloads of pirates ... together with marine commando'ish troops and nh90's :D



apperantly the brits keep making fun of it, supposedly it can allmost take an entire marine battallion ... but not really
can't take dutch army trucks either so they had to buy unimogs, Rotterdam had whole loads of tiny little problems due to stupid politics apperantly!!
nothing catastrophic but still ... but the new LPD should've adressed them :)

and there may be something very interesting coming next but that's still very hush hush

Hope "Johann de Witt" won't have problems!

signatory, what big hovercrafts did you buy??

[Mr. Nielsen]

5. How about our submarine fleet? Should it be kept alive or scrapped like the Danish one? Do we need more/less submarines?

Keep them!!! Submarines are still the only true stealth vessels. Good for discreet deployment that won't easily provoke or draw attention. Also there is an increasing profileration of high quality submarines around the world, which combined with WMD's capable states could really be a problem in the future. The best weapon against such ""rogue" subs would be another sub stalking them. And how will you in general train anti-submarine warfare, if you yourself do not have subs to act as the opposing force?

Scrapping the danish ones was a big mistake I think, so don't follow that path. How about the Viking project now? Is sweden going ahead by itself?

[Greek soldier]

What about this LPH "Mistral"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/FS_Mistral_02.jpg

[Thor]

We need a new government.

That's it.

[Greek soldier]

We need a new government.

That's it.

Make a revolution! :hug:

[Resurrection]

Scrapping the danish ones was a big mistake I think, so don't follow that path. How about the Viking project now? Is sweden going ahead by itself?

The project collapsed when Norway withdrew. :(

[Resurrection]

Signatory you raise some points which I both agree and disagree with. If you don't mind me asking, what's your political alignment?

[Greek soldier]

The project collapsed when Norway withdrew. :(

Why? Is Norway in favour of the U214?

[Resurrection]

Uhmm hold on maybe it hasn't even collapsed. I've been searching and searching but not found an article yet about the cancellation of the project. I thought I heard that it was from the SoldF forums. :roll:

[Greek soldier]

Why not asking the Marinen?

BTW, signatory said that Sweden purchased 3 hovercrafts. Which type??

[Resurrection]

Because they'd take decades to answer. I'm still waiting for an answer from the Swedish military headquarters regarding the attack against SSG in Afghanistan.

Here is the latest news from the Kockums website regarding the Viking project (dated 2004-01-21 :roll:):


Stringent demands being made on Viking

The entire Project Viking organization is now engaged in Project Definition Phase 2 (PDP 2), signalling the start of a highly intensive phase of activity. The first presentation must be made to the customer as early as March. The process of generating decision data for the development of a modern, hyper-efficient and flexible series of submarines is in full swing, parallel with the ongoing development of Kockums' leading-edge technology.

At the same time, considerable demands are being made in terms of strict efficiencies, although no reduction in quality can be tolerated. The customer has now presented new technical requirements, and an analysis of how these may affect the ongoing progress of the project is currently being conducted within the various sub-projects.

The demands made with respect to flexibility in the way the submarine is configured are considerable. Partly a consequence of having two customers - the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) in Sweden and its counterpart SMK in Denmark - these demands also derive from changing priorities in modern defence thinking and the growing degree of cross-border cooperation on defence issues. It is also the first time Kockums has planned to build a submarine that features an ROV (Remote Operated Vehicle) capability. The submarines will also be equipped with Stirling AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) systems.

Other differences compared with earlier projects are an increased demand for signature reduction and solutions to deal with new signature emissions. This applies not only to the noise generated by the submarine's propulsion system but even to other types of signature that could be detected.

In industrial terms, Kockums - in its role as principal contractor - is cooperating with Odense Staalskipsvaerft A/S, in Denmark.

[Greek soldier]

Here is the latest news from the Kockums website regarding the Viking project (dated 2004-01-21 :roll:):

Secrecy around "Viking" Project I guess...

[Resurrection]

And about the hovercrafts, here is the FMV press release:



FMV orders three hovercraft for the Amphibious Battalion


http://www.fmv.se/ImageVault/Images/id_241/conversionFormat_4/scope_4/ImageVaultHandler.aspx

FMV has placed the order for hovercraft with the British firm Griffon Hovercraft. The hovercraft are intended for the transportation of people and equipment, regardless of water depth and icing conditions.

The hovercraft are adapted for international operations, with features such as air conditioning, splinter protection and NBC protection like the Amphibious Battalion's other assault craft and landing craft. The procurement, which has been made in international competition, has been ”design-to-cost”. This means that the maximum price of the product has been fixed. Competition has then had to decide how many of the Swedish Armed Forces’ wishes have been met. This arrangement has considerably reduced the project risks in comparison with conventional procurement, which is in line with the requirements expressed by the Swedish Armed Forces.

”We at FMV are very satisfied with the procurement. It will give the Armed Forces hovercraft that meet the requirements set within the financial framework the project has been given,” comments FMV project manager Sebastian Brunes.

The hovercraft have a load capacity of around 11 tonnes and can be used flexibly to transport 50 people and, for example, vehicles or containers. The hovercraft will be delivered between October 2006 and March 2007.

http://www.fmv.se/WmTemplates/page.aspx?id=1344 (http://www.fmv.se/WmTemplates/page.aspx?id=1344)

[Greek soldier]

Griffon are very good ones. Thought you bought Zubrs... Oh,no I think I mentioned Russia...

[Resurrection]

Hahaha that's a big no-no. :lol: But I don't know, signatory said the ones we bought were big, yet I don't find them that big compared to other hovercrafts. Or maybe it's just the picture, I don't know.

Come on guys, I wanna see what you think of our navy. Go to page 1 for the questions if you don't know where to start.

[Greek soldier]

I posted my imaginative Swedish Navy

I now say a realistic one:

You need: 1) 2 LPDs with Mk10 Landing Crafts
2) 1 LSV "Etna"
3) 4 AAW Frigates (FREMM is my option)
4) Buy 1 additional A19 Submarine

But as Resurrection said, there are no money...

[ed316]

One has to think what would be the new role of the Swedish Navy if it is going to revamp, more offensive then defensive?

[Greek soldier]

Offensive? You mean by using cruise missiles?
I choose defensive!

[ed316]

Offensive? You mean by using cruise missiles?
I choose defensive!

I mean more of cruising the world and projecting it's power. Like the US's fleet

[Resurrection]

In my opinion one logistics vessel should be enough, you have to think long-term. Is it possibile to make an LPD so multi-purpose that it could at the same time fulfill the role of a LSV? Or is having a seperate vessel for each role the smartest?

A dedicated AAM frigate, and 4 of them? I doubt we'd be encountering any large kind of aircraft threat in the future (of course you never know but this is what I think). We do however need a frigate/destroyer to escort the LPD/LSV, don't know which one though.

We need to focus a lot on modernizing our submarine fleet and keeping up-to-date while maintaining our world-leading position. Possibly even purchasing a few more.

[Greek soldier]

To ed316:

That means also at least 2 aircraft carriers, maybe SSN and SSBN, even LPH vessels. Way too expensive...

To Resurrection:

If you want a destroyer, I recommend T45 or the French ones

[signatory]

Signatory you raise some points which I both agree and disagree with. If you don't mind me asking, what's your political alignment?


I allign with what I feel is best for Sweden when it matters.
You won't see me with a pin carrying the logo of any political party...
At the moment I'm putting my vote on the right-wing and that position is further strenghtened by the fact I'm a Stockholm'er and the center-left is pretty good at pissing me off on a daily basis.

[Resurrection]

Nuclear submarines would be a bit too big of a step for Sweden. Conventional submarines will more than do, however it wouldn't hurt making them a bit larger.


Edit: woooot, my 1000th post! :D

[Greek soldier]

Yeah, I imagine an SSN "Amethyste" and an SSBN "Triomphant" with the Swedish flag... I remember SAAB was to develop a nuclear bomber back in the 1960's.

Larger conventional? the A19 is fine, unless you want the U214...

[Resurrection]

Collins' class size will do. Oh yes, our nuclear program back in the days. :lol:

[Greek soldier]

Collins class is from Kockums :) :) :)

[Resurrection]

Look here:
http://www.kockums.se/Products/products.html

You can see a basic comparison in size between the Gotland class and Collin class there. :)

http://www.kockums.se/Submarines/Resources/gotland1a.gif
Gotland

http://www.kockums.se/Submarines/Resources/collins1a.gif
Collins

[signatory]

Uhmm hold on maybe it hasn't even collapsed. I've been searching and searching but not found an article yet about the cancellation of the project. I thought I heard that it was from the SoldF forums. :roll:

soldf forums is like 10% good, 90% bu-****. Even if they are a real soldier they wouldn't have access to such information anyway. And you won't see SAAB or Kockum techies reveal their secrets there. Just check their info against official sources and if you can't find anything... view it as a weak rumour.

A decision to cancel Viking would be a governmental one and thus easy to read the online protocol from that defense meeting. None yet :)
But yea there's some issues with Viking and no firm commitment to build subs, so some of the sonar and engine parts meant for Viking is now fitted as upgrades on the Södermanland and eventually the Gotland class to keep them up to date. And the techies @ work.

[Greek soldier]

Collins: Crew- 42
Gotland: Crew 25

It's BIG!! But Stirling is outstanding!!

EDIT: Our navy is interested on the Sea Dagger

[Resurrection]

soldf forums is like 10% good, 90% bu-****. Even if they are a real soldier they wouldn't have access to such information anyway. And you won't see SAAB or Kockum techies reveal their secrets there. Just check their info against official sources and if you can't find anything... view it as a weak rumour.

A decision to cancel Viking would be a governmental one and thus easy to read the online protocol from that defense meeting. None yet :)
But yea there's some issues with Viking and no firm commitment to build subs, so some of the sonar and engine parts meant for Viking is now fitted as upgrades on the Södermanland and eventually the Gotland class to keep them up to date. And the techies @ work.
Ok in this case you're right, but they aren't that unreliable. I've gotten quite a few things from SoldF which I've posted here. ;) This part is interesting:

"... so some of the sonar and engine parts meant for Viking is now fitted as upgrades on the Södermanland and eventually the Gotland class to keep them up to date."

Pretty cool, do you have a source?

[sp2c]

In my opinion one logistics vessel should be enough, you have to think long-term. Is it possibile to make an LPD so multi-purpose that it could at the same time fulfill the role of a LSV? Or is having a seperate vessel for each role the smartest?


well there is a study going on in that direction I don't know if it's ended yet or what the results are since I know nothing about naval affairs but the proposal was to replace on of our fleet replenishment vessel (possibly both since hrms Amsterdam is still quite new and would return some money if sold unlike hrms Zuiderkruis) with another Enforcer series ship which would be a 'multiroleship/helicoptercarrier' (defence minister's words, it's not clear what he really means but the navy wants to give the LPD's a fleet replenishment function and buy two LHD's from the enforcer series).

the enforcer series would be a great option for the swedish navy regardless, because it's a modular ship it can be tailored around the swedish needs and can be as big or as small as you want it to be

http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/enforcer/pics/enforcer.jpg
http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/enforcer/pics/Enforc3.jpg
http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/enforcer/pics/Enforc1.jpg
http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/enforcer/



A dedicated AAM frigate, and 4 of them? I doubt we'd be encountering any large kind of aircraft threat in the future (of course you never know but this is what I think). We do however need a frigate/destroyer to escort the LPD/LSV, don't know which one though.

well it's purpose wouldn't neccesarily be anti aircraft though especially since you don't have a patriotlike system (do you?) and are surrounded by water it could be usefull to have them cruise around with long range anti aircraft missile systems to intercept TMD's coming your way not that that's all that likely these days but if that's an argument you might well get rid of your military entirely and that would be bad because you never know what can happen in the future.

Doesn't really have to be a destroyer either, could just be a visby frigate modified to carry RIM-161 SM-3's and a smart-L or even APAR tower but it won't leave much room for other tasks so a larger ship would be preferable


We need to focus a lot on modernizing our submarine fleet and keeping up-to-date while maintaining our world-leading position. Possibly even purchasing a few more.

don't know if you really need more the threat isn't that great at the moment and the money should be used elsewhere however, submarining is not a skill that can be learned at a moments notice so you'll allways need to keep at least some around so that you have skilled crewmen if you want new ships fast

but you definately need to keep them up to date

[Greek soldier]

Hope to see 2 LPDs with the Hellenic Navy!!

[signatory]

Ok in this case you're right, but they aren't that unreliable. I've gotten quite a few things from SoldF which I've posted here. ;) This part is interesting:

"... so some of the sonar and engine parts meant for Viking is now fitted as upgrades on the Södermanland and eventually the Gotland class to keep them up to date."

Pretty cool, do you have a source?

oh somewhere on mil.se in a news article after a half-time modernisation.
I guess I could search but you know how crappy that search function is :(
grabbed some info from the obvious source though: in italics the improvements over the Gotland class.

Den största förändringen är att Södermanland försetts med det luftoberoende Stirlingmaskineriet med den senaste versionen stirlingmotor MK3. (Gotland har MK1) Ett nytt klimatsystem gör att man även kan kyla/värma/avfukta inombordsluften och inte enbart kyla motorer och komponenter. Detta innebär att spillvärme som produceras i de olika systemen ombord nu återanvänds för uppvärmning av kalla utrymmen. Detta minskar påfrestningen på batterierna.

Ett flertal aktiva och passiva sensorsystem har modifierats och bytts ut mot nya system med förbättrade egenskaper. Genomförandet av dykarsluss ger möjlighet att genomföra in/utslussning av dykare i undervattensläge. Ett stort antal skeppstekniska åtgärder inom hydraulik, luftsystem, vattenbärande system och korrosionsskydd, förbättrar tillgängligheten och minskar underhållskostnaderna, sade Larsbrink i sitt tal.

sorry about the Swedish text :) (Says, new sonar, climate system, dive hatch
latest sterling) On FOI.se you should be able to find out more info about the larger FAS (I will try to find a pic) fitted on the subs. I don't bookmark what I read...just keep it in memory cause it's from official sources...

[Resurrection]

well there is a study going on in that direction I don't know if it's ended yet or what the results are since I know nothing about naval affairs but the proposal was to replace on of our fleet replenishment vessel (possibly both since hrms Amsterdam is still quite new and would return some money if sold unlike hrms Zuiderkruis) with another Enforcer series ship which would be a 'multiroleship/helicoptercarrier' (defence minister's words, it's not clear what he really means but the navy wants to give the LPD's a fleet replenishment function and buy two LHD's from the enforcer series).

the enforcer series would be a great option for the swedish navy regardless, because it's a modular ship it can be tailored around the swedish needs and can be as big or as small as you want it to be
Thanks for the info and it'd be really cool if you found the results of the research. I love the Enforcer series, very modular as you say and there are tons of options to choose from. One thing that I've been wondering though is if the Rotterdam and Johan de Witt are from the series? And are there any other navies operating ships from the Enforcer series except the RNLN (assuming they do)?

Another thing - what are those icons under propulsion and propulsers supposed to resemble?


well it's purpose wouldn't neccesarily be anti aircraft though especially since you don't have a patriotlike system (do you?) and are surrounded by water it could be usefull to have them cruise around with long range anti aircraft missile systems to intercept TMD's coming your way not that that's all that likely these days but if that's an argument you might well get rid of your military entirely and that would be bad because you never know what can happen in the future.

Doesn't really have to be a destroyer either, could just be a visby frigate modified to carry RIM-161 SM-3's and a smart-L or even APAR tower but it won't leave much room for other tasks so a larger ship would be preferable
Ohhh, so they're multi-purpose? I thought AAMs were dedicated anti-aircraft frigates. :p Nope, we don't have a Patriot-like system. The only long-range defence we've got against airborne threats is the obsolete HAWK system (it's constantly upgraded though I'm guessing).

The Visby class ships are corvettes mate. ;) And yes, they're quite small when comparing them internationally. Those missile systems you mentioned, do they require illumination to reach their target? Because that would ruin Visby's stealth once fired.


don't know if you really need more the threat isn't that great at the moment and the money should be used elsewhere however, submarining is not a skill that can be learned at a moments notice so you'll allways need to keep at least some around so that you have skilled crewmen if you want new ships fast

but you definately need to keep them up to date
Yeah, but there comes a time when you can't just keep upgrading the submarine and instead need a new one. But I can see the Gotland class submarines serving our navy for several years to come.


oh somewhere on mil.se in a news article after a half-time modernisation.
I guess I could search but you know how crappy that search function is :-(
grabbed some info from the obvious source though: in italics the improvements over the Gotland class.

Den största förändringen är att Södermanland försetts med det luftoberoende Stirlingmaskineriet med den senaste versionen stirlingmotor MK3. (Gotland har MK1) Ett nytt klimatsystem gör att man även kan kyla/värma/avfukta inombordsluften och inte enbart kyla motorer och komponenter. Detta innebär att spillvärme som produceras i de olika systemen ombord nu återanvänds för uppvärmning av kalla utrymmen. Detta minskar påfrestningen på batterierna.

Ett flertal aktiva och passiva sensorsystem har modifierats och bytts ut mot nya system med förbättrade egenskaper. Genomförandet av dykarsluss ger möjlighet att genomföra in/utslussning av dykare i undervattensläge. Ett stort antal skeppstekniska åtgärder inom hydraulik, luftsystem, vattenbärande system och korrosionsskydd, förbättrar tillgängligheten och minskar underhållskostnaderna, sade Larsbrink i sitt tal.

sorry about the Swedish text :-) (Says, new sonar, climate system, dive hatch
latest sterling) On FOI.se you should be able to find out more info about the larger FAS (I will try to find a pic) fitted on the subs. I don't bookmark what I read...just keep it in memory cause it's from official sources...
Nice info, thanks! Why were these modifications/upgrades fitted on the Södermanland instead of the newer Gotland? Because it's out on exercises with the USN I'm guessing right? And when will the Gotland be fitted with these upgrades?


I'd like to hear what you guys think of our submarines participating in international operations such as Active Endeavour and if we need larger ships/submarines if we want to operate outside our waters?

[Greek soldier]

Thanks for the info and it'd be really cool if you found the results of the research. I love the Enforcer series, very modular as you say and there are tons of options to choose from. One thing that I've been wondering though is if the Rotterdam and Johan de Witt are from the series? And are there any other navies operating ships from the Enforcer series except the RNLN (assuming they do)?


1) The "Galicia" LPD is the Spanish equivalent of the "ENFORCER" series
2) Both "Rotterdam" and "Johann De Witt" are from the "ENFORCER". The "Johan De Witt" however is a bit bigger.
3) The Hellenic Navy is to evaluate the Dutch vessel for a similar "Rotterdam" LPD.
4) Since the A19 made the USN wondering how the hell the Swedes are capable of producing submarines, I hope you won't scrap the submarine fleet.

[sp2c]

afaik the planned UK royal navy's Bay class LSD's (4 ships) are based on the Enforcer series

[Greek soldier]

afaik the planned UK royal navy's Bay class LSD's (4 ships) are based on the Enforcer series

See Resurrection? The Dutch know better...

[sp2c]

Thanks for the info and it'd be really cool if you found the results of the research. I love the Enforcer series, very modular as you say and there are tons of options to choose from. One thing that I've been wondering though is if the Rotterdam and Johan de Witt are from the series? And are there any other navies operating ships from the Enforcer series except the RNLN (assuming they do)?

Another thing - what are those icons under propulsion and propulsers supposed to resemble?

dunno ... that's too technical, I like flying stuff ;)


Ohhh, so they're multi-purpose? I thought AAMs were dedicated anti-aircraft frigates. :p Nope, we don't have a Patriot-like system. The only long-range defence we've got against airborne threats is the obsolete HAWK system (it's constantly upgraded though I'm guessing).

oops ... well when I think destroyer, I think LCF :)
a dedicated one task ship isn't really economically viable for small navies these days!


The Visby class ships are corvettes mate. ;) And yes, they're quite small when comparing them internationally. Those missile systems you mentioned, do they require illumination to reach their target? Because that would ruin Visby's stealth once fired.

I don't think so?
it's day and night all weather all the way ... but that tends to rely on the radar I think.

but yeah a corvette might be too small, thought they were frigates ... but still you should be able to afford something like those new Danish vessels but with a powerfull radar and long range anti aircraft missiles.

or make it a modular thing and keep the stuff in containers, that way you can deploy the weaponry required for the mission before deployment.

won't be pretty but it works (the danes do it with their patrolboats afaik) and chances are you will only use them in international allied squadrons anyways so you just offer them for a specific tasks and in the meantime you can have them do AA defence work in your own waters.




Yeah, but there comes a time when you can't just keep upgrading the submarine and instead need a new one. But I can see the Gotland class submarines serving our navy for several years to come.


true enough when the time comes you need new ones but yours are barely 10 years old!
start thinking about that question 10 or 15 years from now!


Nice info, thanks! Why were these modifications/upgrades fitted on the Södermanland instead of the newer Gotland? Because it's out on exercises with the USN I'm guessing right? And when will the Gotland be fitted with these upgrades?

I'd like to hear what you guys think of our submarines participating in international operations such as Active Endeavour and if we need larger ships/submarines if we want to operate outside our waters?

well ... a submarine defends against other submarines so they should definately be a part of the international squadrons. Also they are good intelligence gathering tools, so if you have them in the general area of a conflict zone they can easily slip away and take some pictures of the landing beach or something like that ;)

especially silent quality diesel electric subs like yours ... over here it's a generally accepted rumour that one of our subs did just that prior to the recent war in Iraq, some wilder rumours say they even deployed marine special forces :D

all bs of course according to the government and I don't buy the special forces thing but it is a usefull skill that is unique to a submarine force

[Greek soldier]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/reputation/reputation_pos.gifThe Swedish Navy - Your... (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1361565#post1361565)01-05-2006 07:03 PM You and Resurrection should get married. -Lazarou

Lazarou, I'm not gay. If there is a nice Swedish girl available (don't care if she is blonde!), why not...

Is it bad that I am interested on Swedish vessels??
Should I then marry sp2c because I love the "ENFORCER" Series??

[Resurrection]

He's Finnish, ignore him. ;)

[siberian tiger]

I think those ENFORCER ships are the best :). the Portuguese Navy is also planning to be equiped with one LPD just like the spanish Galicia or the dutch Rotterdam. It will be capable of:
» Comand and Control Sistem with voice, data and image comunications
sistem, joint and naval C2 informations sistem.
» Defense Sistem with close anti-missil defence (PHALANX), NBQ defense,
warning air defence and surface defence radars, electronic defence,
» Personnel: ships crew with 120 sailors, 600 Marines and 22 in the Forces HQ
» 4 EH101 or 6 NH90, landing platform capable of operating 2 helicopters at
the same time.
» 1 LCU capable of 180 tons of cargo or 3 Tanks or 120 Marines plus 1 tank.
» 4 LCVP capable of 8 tons of cargo or 36 Marines or 2 tons of cargo plus
1 light vehicle.
» 800m2 for vehicles parking capable of carring Battle Tanks.
» Hospital with 35 beds.

Theres also a plan to buy 2 AAW frigates to protect the LPD with the 3 Meko 200 ASW that we have since 1990s and the 2+1 U214 that will be deliver by 2010. I would be very suprise to see this capability in the Navy in my life time.


About the Swedish navy i don`t know if their submarines are capable of leaving their coastal areas like going in a scout role for a naval task force, that`s is also needed to protect a task force with 1 LPD, a couple of frigates AAW and ASW and a suplies ship for longer missions like an AOR.

[Resurrection]

Pretty old thread you dug up...