German Merc in the FFL

[East Scout]

Hello-
Quite a long time ago i came across some pictures of former German Wehrmacht Soldiers that joined the FFL to fight the Viet-Min in Vietnam..Most fought at (and died at) Dien Ben Fu (Spelling)..

If someone MIGHT have some of these pictures could they share them with the group..A few I remember were some fella sitting around at the barracks sporting their M43 caps and some still retained few decorations from the war.

Even a link would be helpful....

Thanks
Brandenburger...

[joedirt]

oh yes I would love to see this as well

[ChuckThunder]

Have you ever read The Devil's Guard?

[East Scout]

Have you ever read The Devil's Guard?

Sir, no i havnt.......

[2/1kiwi]

Sir, no i havnt.......
Devils Guard a book about SS soldiers and others joining the legion and fighting in vietnam. There are 3 as far as i know the first book being the best the other two are ****e

The first book is supposed to be a true account but its hard to say
imo

[peio2]

Ask here:

http://cervens.net/legionbbs/index.php

The French Foreign Legion Forum.

[LoveMeister]

I actually have The Devils Guard as a word Document. I'll be happy to send it to you if you would like. I've read most of it. I'd say it's pretty much pure fiction but I'll guarantee you won't be bored.

- The LoveMeister

[sp2c]

foreign legionairres are not mercs!

[East Scout]

I actually have The Devils Guard as a word Document. I'll be happy to send it to you if you would like. I've read most of it. I'd say it's pretty much pure fiction but I'll guarantee you won't be bored.

- The LoveMeister


ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!! Please?;-)

Sp2c:
If your a Soldier from one country using skills from that country to serve another country for pay, you are a Merc...No one said the FFl were mercs.

[Lokos]

If your a Soldier from one country using skills from that country to serve another country for pay, you are a Merc...No one said the FFl were mercs.

Uhh, you just did. Like, right in the sentence before last.

*shrug*

Lokos

[East Scout]

Let me try to be more clear:

If Im a former US Ranger and I join the Croatian Army for pay that dosnt make the Croatian Army a Merc army..That makes me a Merc..

As in if im an Ex-WH soldier and i join the FFL that dosnt make the FFL Mercs..Merc identifies a profession not an orginization..

[Lokos]

As in if im an Ex-WH soldier and i join the FFL that dosnt make the FFL Mercs..Merc identifies a profession not an orginization..

It's a semantic difference (soldier/merc) but alright, fair enough.

Lokos

[dacanadianbomb]

No it makes you a member of the Croatian Army.

[East Scout]

Here read this:
http://mcel.pacificu.edu/as/students/koreavet/merc.html

[East Scout]

It's a semantic difference (soldier/merc) but alright, fair enough.

Lokos


AGREED!;-)

[Macs.]

Here is a forum with germans who are/were in the Legion:

http://www.lalegion.de/forum/index.php

[Scottie]

i'd love to see some pictures of this!!! very interesting!

[East Scout]

i'd love to see some pictures of this!!! very interesting!


Ive been combing the net..nothing yet..I joined teh FFL groups mentioned above..When i get activated ill ask around..

These photos are obviously not easy to aquire....Come to think about it i may have saw the pictures in SOF magazine not on the net..

[Scottie]

your effort is appreciated.

[sp2c]

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!! Please?;-)

Sp2c:
If your a Soldier from one country using skills from that country to serve another country for pay, you are a Merc...No one said the FFl were mercs.
exactly ... foreign legionnairs get a french passport so they are not foreigners fighting for money, they are frenchmen fighting for france

[drGreen]

exactly ... foreign legionnairs get a french passport so they are not foreigners fighting for money, they are frenchmen fighting for france

Vietnam was before the infamous assassination attempt on the french president in '61, I tought they swore only to the legion and not to france those days..

[East Scout]

exactly ... foreign legionnairs get a french passport so they are not foreigners fighting for money, they are frenchmen fighting for france




If you dont agree thats fine..Im not gonna go round and round about it..Lets find some pics and post em ok? We agree to disagree..How would that be?

[kk111]

exactly ... foreign legionnairs get a french passport so they are not foreigners fighting for money, they are frenchmen fighting for france

wrong, they are foreigners fighting for the french foreign legion. (and money, honor, and sometimes for a french passport...)

[fantassin]

Posts about Germans in the FFL spring up about every 4 months on MilPhot...and every time the reference is "The legion of the damned" which is a FICTION work...and a load of BS to boot.

Search the old database of MilPhot and you'll find plenty of posts debunkink that book, especially by David Lehman, a very knowledgeable man who used to be on this board but got fed up with all the French bashing and stopped posting out of disgust. You'll see figures and facts on Germans in the FFL in Indochina and they really don't fit the idea that some harbour of a "SS for hire" combing the paddy fields for the French in the 50s.

Problem is it does not fit the idea of the FFL, a French army unit, being efficient without the Germans...while it indeed was the case.

[sp2c]

If you dont agree thats fine..Im not gonna go round and round about it..Lets find some pics and post em ok? We agree to disagree..How would that be?
that'd be ok by me I just have to put my 2 cents in on this issue :)

anyways Fantassin, is it that unlikely that there were SS troops with the FFL in indochina? maybe not germans this short after ww2 but in our case we had a small number of Dutch ex SS troops active with the Korean detachments between 1950 and 1953 ... they weren't liked all that much in the beginning (understatement) but they all had a common enemy (communists!)

rumour has it that there were some in the Netherlands east indies (unlikely because of the timeframe) and netherlands new guinnee

[Argyll]

It's an urban legend about the numerous SS soldiers who went to the FFL after the war.....I do believe this has been debunked elsehwere,especially the Devils Guard related stories!

[East Scout]

It's an urban legend about the numerous SS soldiers who went to the FFL after the war.....I do believe this has been debunked elsehwere,especially the Devils Guard related stories!

I dont care if they were former Wehrmacht cooks..I just wanna see some pictures of historical value. Im sure there were some. Maybe not just German..There were many many armies that fought with the Germans under the same stahlhelm....Those guys all didnt just return to civilian life. However it looks like this thread is a dead end...

Thank you all for your time...If i find anything ill be sure to dig this up this thread and post them.

Brandenburger..

[fantassin]

...and don't forget to post pics of German Légionnaires who deserted and joined the Vietcong guerilla; some even became instructors for the communists and fought against their FFL former comrades.

There was a report on them on the franco-german "Arte" TV channel last year...some of those bastards were still wearing the FFL green beret while boasting of their exploits with the VC against the French Union forces. Go figure....

[East Scout]

Came across this:
After the war, British commandos recruited a number of ex-Brandenburgers with good command of English. When their service ended, many immigrated to African countries. Others joined the French Foreign Legion.

http://explanation-guide.info/meaning/Brandenburger-Regiment.html

No pictures yet..sorry:-(

[East Scout]

...and don't forget to post pics of German Légionnaires who deserted and joined the Vietcong guerilla; some even became instructors for the communists and fought against their FFL former comrades.

There was a report on them on the franco-german "Arte" TV channel last year...some of those bastards were still wearing the FFL green beret while boasting of their exploits with the VC against the French Union forces. Go figure....


WOW..Guess the VC payed better.......

[mwarf]

wrong, they are foreigners fighting for the french foreign legion. (and money, honor, and sometimes for a french passport...)
Legionnaire code of honour :
Article 1: Legionnaire, you are a volunteer, serving France with honour and fidelity .
(http://www.legion-recrute.com/ang/index.html) (http://www.legion-recrute.com/ang/index.html)

[East Scout]

We are all a bit correct:

From example D it would appear that the FFL has legal reasons behind its policy of handing out passports..(read link).Technicaly they are Merc..Officialy they arnt.


Art 47. Mercenaries

A mercenary is any person who:
(a) is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;
(b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;
(c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;
(d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;
(e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and
(f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.

http://explanation-guide.info/meaning/Mercenary.html

[He219]

I suppose it's relative, but it would be difficult to deny there were some numbers of former German soldiers there ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/He219/more/cf111fa5.jpg

Smoke rises from burning villages as a Junker 52 of the French Air Force drops its load of 100-pound bombs over suspected Communist Viet Minh positions, on March 16, 1951, some 100 miles north of Hanoi. (AP Photo/Levy
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/He219/more/1026949c.jpg

Two German mercenaries of the French Foreign Legion operating south of Saigon, are holding a Communist Viet Minh fighter at gunpoint, on November 18, 1950. The captive stands with his hands raised over his head, while one of the legionnaires inspects the hammer-and-sickle-crusted Viet Minh flag. (AP Photo)
http://cache.*****images.com/comp/50871086.jpg?x=x&dasite=*****Images&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=2CED0DF1DCE7FDECAE0A15C2504312F4AC9EDBE4E6F952F6

December 1950: Packed artillery going forward on mule as French troops advance during military campaign against Viet Minh in Indochina. (Photo by Howard Sochurek/Time & Life Pictures/***** Images)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/He219/more/a5323977.jpg

Troops of the French-Indochinese Union army, being released by the Communist Viet Minh, disembark from a landing barge at Viet Tri exchange point, northwest of Hanoi, Vietnam, on August 29, 1954. The 500 prisoners released were either men of the North African colonial troops or German mercenaries of the French Foreign Legion. (AP Photo)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/He219/more/6ef12c33.jpg

Brigadier General Joe Masson, deputy commander of the French Union forces in Indochina, greets returning French prisoners of war at Lanessan Hospital in Hanoi, after their release by the Communist Viet Minh in a prisoner exchange at Viet Tri, on August 24, 1954. The 500 prisoners released were either men of the North African colonial troops or German mercenaries of the French Foreign Legion. (AP Photo)
http://cache.*****images.com/comp/50869910.jpg?x=x&dasite=*****Images&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=2CED0DF1DCE7FDECE158347B42C46FE1AC9EDBE4E6F952F6

1 Dec 1950: German Legionnaires who escaped slaughter by Communists at Caobang, toasting their colonel. (Photo by Howard Sochurek/Time & Life Pictures/***** Images)

[~~~~]

I 've recently found on the net a testimony of a polish former legionnaire serving in the legion in the late seventies. he was really disgusted by the fact that he has to serve there alonside with SS vets.

[sp2c]

I think you'll be hard pressed to find any pictures of these guys because it (being part of the SS) isn't something you'd advertise especially in these days especially not in foreign service

but I'd like to see more pictures from the dien bien phu era especially and the FFL in general (if you don't mind me hijacking your thread)

[East Scout]

I 've recently found on the net a testimony of a polish former legionnaire serving in the legion in the late seventies. he was really disgusted by the fact that he has to serve there alonside with SS vets.

Got a link?

BTW whats on your Avatar? Is that a soccer hooligan beating someone with a car door?

[East Scout]

He219,

A PICTURE! PICTURES! Thank you!...:-)

[East Scout]

I think you'll be hard pressed to find any pictures of these guys because it (being part of the SS) isn't something you'd advertise especially in these days especially not in foreign service

but I'd like to see more pictures from the dien bien phu era especially and the FFL in general (if you don't mind me hijacking your thread)

I dont care......needs to be evened out with some photos anyhow before someone closes it down.

[2/1kiwi]

Got a link?

BTW whats on your Avatar? Is that a soccer hooligan beating someone with a car door?


from lock stock and 2 smoking barrels i think or snatch 1 of them anyway

[He219]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/He219/more/957d0a73.jpgsource (http://www.geocities.com/cbssecman/Congo1.html)

A German mercenary shows off some souvenirs in the Congo.

[dacanadianbomb]

Isnt that the gentleman they referred to as Congo Müller ?

[kk111]

yes.

siegfried "kongo" mueller

[East Scout]

Herr Mueller:
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=siegfried+%22kongo%22+mueller&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-img-t&fl=0&x=wrt

[MajorTom]

Found this information about the subject:

"
Having served in the legion,I can confirm that there were units made up of former waffen SS soldiers.I actually spoke to some of the surviving members whilst working at the FFL retirement farm at Puyloubier.

The book,DEVIL'S GUARD by G.R.Elford is fictional however.
"

[fantassin]

Posting a pic of a "Toucan" (that's a Ju52 in French air Force service) proves zilch since the French used a lot of captured German equipment after the war and were still using the Toucan in Algeria in the early 60s. The French even manufactured the Fieseler Storch ("Criquet" in French) with a different engine.

As for the caption of the pics...you can put any caption on a pic when you have nothing to prove what your are writing.

Famous US writer Bernard Fall, a Vietnam expert who was at Dien Bien Phu and wrote about it was the first to debunk the SS in the FFL hoax.

There were indeed a lot of Germans in Indochina but most were youngsters with no WW2 experience who were left in despair or without any hope in destroyed post-WW2 Germany.

Command Sgt Maj Roos, one the last Indochina war veteran who left FFL service in early 90s after 38 years in the Legion was one of them and he also was one of those who debunked the SS in the Legion myth.

[Thor]

So what if there were a few ex-WSS in the FFL.. There were a few in the US Army as well (I only know the name of one actually).

[caleb]

My parents once told me story they experienced while travelling through Corse in the 60's.

They were backpacking through the forests in the summer with some friends and slept in the open. Someday, they were woken by voices shouting and screaming in the vicinity. The stood up and noticed they were surrounded by by FFL soldiers climbing up trees and an Officer shouted insults and commands in German at them.

"Ich will euch Arschlöcher auf den Bäumen sehen!" meaning "I want to see you assholes up the trees"

My parents and their friends soon noticed that nearly all of the FFL soldiers were speaking German. They were sure they were FFL soldiers because they spoke to one of the officers and he had some interresting stories to tell from life in the Legion.

They were allergic to photographies. :)

[fantassin]

When I did my jungle course with the Legion in Guyana, we would count the pushups in Polish, Arab and in Portuguese, the languages of the instructors...nothing new there !

[He219]

Posting a pic of a "Toucan" (that's a Ju52 in French air Force service) proves zilch.I just liked the pic. Don't see that too much.


So what if there were a few ex-WSS in the FFL.. There were a few in the US Army as well (I only know the name of one actually).
I can think of an SS Colonel who became the first Director of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center and whose team designed the Saturn Rocket that brought man to the moon ..
;)

[caleb]

@Fantassin

I thought it was a nice story fantassin, no reason to be so grumpy. :|

[East Scout]

@Fantassin

I thought it was a nice story fantassin, no reason to be so grumpy. :|


Yep. I agree

[~~~~]

Got a link?

BTW whats on your Avatar? Is that a soccer hooligan beating someone with a car door?

unfortunatelly not anymore. I guess would be hard to find it now... and after all it was in polish.

and that's Vinnie Jones on my avatar, indeed a soccer hooligan, huh huh...

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

brandeburger not wanting to seem a smart arse but there were very little werhmacht veterans at dien bien phu contrary to popular belief.although there were lots of other germans there that hadnt been in the war though.
anyway i wouldnt mind seeing them photos aswell.and where did you get the pic next to your name do you have a high res one?

[East Scout]

Airborne,
I didnt take it as you being a smartass...Im here to learn and have been since i got here..This is a great group with some really great people...

As for the Avatar..Welll i just picked up on the net a few days ago..I dont even remeber were..I have a larger version if you would like it..

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

yes please mate could you email it to me or post it on the sight.email jay_mcmahon@hotmail.com

ive got some phots of me in dien bien phu a few months ago doing a bit of a battlefield tour if you intrested.

[East Scout]

Ok ill send it to you..I just blew it way large for my wallpaper and it stayed in a good view so i think it will be ok for what ever you have in mind....I dont know tech stuff so i dont know if it will loose any clearity in the email transfer.

Brandenburger..

[East Scout]

Im watching a FFL special on The Military Channel...They are interviewing old vets from the 50 and 60s..One told the reporter all his NCOs and Officers were X-German Soldiers from the war..Didnt say anything about SS or Wehrmacht. Though he wouldnt if he knew anyhow..

Thought that was of interest..