EU plans huge boost in security spending

[fantassin]

EU plans huge boost in security spending

The Independent

By Stephen Castle in Brussels
17 February 2004


Plans to plough up to €2bn (£1.3bn) a year of EU cash into defence and security research were presented yesterday, raising the prospect of Europe spending as much as the US Department of Homeland Security.

A host of potential EU research projects, from intelligence-sharing and surveillance to efforts to combat bio-terrorism, have been outlined in a report compiled by defence and security experts for two European commissioners.

A new EU security research programme designed to boost the EU's technological ability to mount limited military operations, combat terrorism and police its own borders should be created, the experts suggest.

If accepted, the plan would mark a dramatic change in Europe's profile as a global player in defence and security.

Defence analysts see greater co-ordination among European countries as the key to getting better value for money for the EU as it seeks to become a bigger global force. An EU armaments agency is already being set up with the job of improving military capabilities and co-ordinating procurement projects.

Officials insist that the research proposals are geared to tasks that the EU has already agreed on, such as crisis intervention and peace-keeping, policing its borders and co-operation among law enforcement agencies. "We are not going to be producing Stealth bombers," said one official. But campaigners are already alarmed. Tony Bunyan, editor of Statewatch magazine, which monitors civil liberties in the EU, said: "It looks like this is research towards creating a homeland security infrastructure. What we are seeing is entirely balanced towards security. If you are going to start developing these systems they are going to impinge on people's freedoms."

The report compiled for Philippe Busquin, the EU research commissioner, and Erkki Liikanen, the information technology and telecommunications commissioner, states: "The main responsibility for external security will rest for the foreseeable future with member states. However, national governments will only be able to tackle the new security challenges if they combine their efforts."

The areas of research listed include developing new communications networks, improving access to space, and forging smoother technical links between agencies in different countries.

More controversial is the mention of technology to improve surveillance, which, the document says, "is needed for the protection of national borders and for crisis management operations abroad".

One main theme is the need for research to help police and military operate effectively together. The paper also calls for the research programme to develop systems and products that are useful "for the protection of member-state territory, sovereignty, domestic population and critical infrastructure against transnational threats, and work should also be targeted to help EU military missions outside the union for peace-keeping, conflict prevention and strengthening international security in accordance with the principles of the United Nations Charter".

At present, only €65m has been made available from the EU's research budget over three years. Pushing spending up to €1bn to €2bn each year would require the support of all EU member states when they decide the next spending round which will last from 2007-13.

[mustamato]

If accepted, the plan would mark a dramatic change in Europe's profile as a global player in defence and security.

"Dramatic change". Getting rid of the american involvment in our internal
affairs would be one big first step. To be able to take care of conflicts in our
neighbouring areas (Africa, Balkans etc) without having to be under the command
of a US general. Europe is probably already capable of that I should think.
The EU rapid deployment force is 60.000 soldiers strong at the moment, and
that would be enough, and it will get larger probably. As a pro-European I must
say that we are living in a exciting period. Europe uniting like this.

What else do we need? Probably some of these EU leaders are thinking of being
a major player that can "fight terrorism" in mysterious places like Afghanistan.
I wonder if I will ever see such a capacity during my lifetime though, in large scale
operating without USA. And I´m not so sure if I would like to see it. But EU getting
involved more heavily in Africa I would like to see. A stabilized Africa would in
many ways gain Europe.

[wholagun]

anything that makes EU more secure is a good thing.

[Tengu]

yes mustamato i'm all for a strong EU but remember; the USA must and will always be our ally. But we are far from there.

[mustamato]

yes mustamato i'm all for a strong EU but remember; the USA must and will always be our ally. But we are far from there.

Why the "must"? EU = 400+ million people.

[tony6]

Hey mustamato-do You really believe that Eurocrats can handle that on their own?
I mean-check out what happend in former Yugolsavia countries-right in the middle of Europe. I don't buy that "we can do it on our own" crap.
For Christ sake-Europe had a problem with sending 12 helicopters to Afganistan lately when commanders ask for more air support!
Finally-Turkey send most of these helos. Don't You think it's pathetic?
Besides-decission process is so complicated (damn bureaucracy!) that it takes months to take any decission (not to mention sending the troops).

[mustamato]

Yes but we are talking about now. I´m more talking about 20-30
years from now. And if it was, say Libya where Khadaffi died and the country
was on the brink to a total civil war. Then I´m quite sure that EU would be able
to send just more than 10-12 helicopters within a week, and that´s the situation
today, not in 20-30 years. I´m not a mustradamus, but I think the process
will continue as it does today.

Just look at the combined Europes military capacity, and compare it to the
one 10 years ago when it was full war in former Yugoslavia and nothing could
be done about it. I remember when the first swedish UN-soldiers were sent to Bosnia
as part of IFOR, the swedish defence minister said in TV that the "equipment
was not good enought for actual warzone duty!!", so the APC´s had to be modified
and getting liners and all that kind of stuff. Today all new swedish equipment
is adapted from the beginning to be able to serve internationally. Also during my
army days we had one large exercise where one unit was "UN-soldiers" and we
were OPFOR and running around and harassing and kidnapping them and stuff.
All this improvement in ten years, how will it look in 2014?

[Tengu]

Why the "must"? EU = 400+ million people.Because i don't see the need for an american enemy. And most other EU members (even those who were opposed to the war in iraq) agree, except France (duh).

[mustamato]

Why the "must"? EU = 400+ million people.Because i don't see the need for an american enemy.

"Either you are with US, or you are against US" :)

[tony6]

mustamato:
Well-I hope Your right but I'm not as optimistic as Your.
I would like to be wrong anyway.

[Tengu]

Either you are with US, or you are against US" :)In the war on terrorism; i agree.

[mustamato]

mustamato:
Well-I hope Your right but I'm not as optimistic as Your.
I would like to be wrong anyway.

What is your main concern my polish friend? Things are looking great from
my perspective, I´d rather have 100 Usamas than one president of the Soviet
Union from a european point of view. The Iron curtain is gone and won´t come
back during our lifetime, mustradamus promises you that.

[Kitsune]

Both Mustamato and Tengu are absolutely right in my opinion.

Look, the EU (as it will be fom may 2004 on) has 450 million inhabitants. If most of the other East European countries are included later, it will be more than 500 million.
Even today the EU countries have a total BIP of around 10.000 billion €. Only the US can compete here. We are, next to the US and Japan the richest region on earth.
So why should it be impossible to see to our security without American help? Especially today, where there is no REAL threat on the horizon?
We have everything we need at our disposal: men (and women ;) ), economy, science, technology...the rest is a MENTAL problem. So if we only start to cooperate in these matters we can do it and no nation has even to give up its souvereignity.

But that does not mean that we stop being ally to the US. Only that we stop being dependant on them. Would the US call for European help if their homeland were attacked? NO! So why should we have to call for transatlantic help, if we can do it ourselves? There is simply no reason. Someone, who has THE MEANS to defend himself, should do it, and not rely on anyone else. It is safer that way.
The friendship and cooperation with the US have nothing to do with the wish to be independent from them.
In the end it will even free the US from a burden.

[Javehn]

It is perhaps a good thing for EU starting to raise it's military budget . Perhaps it has something with a new deffinition of terror (mostly islamic extremist fundamental type ) , that has become worldwide , while the nation of Europe until now were pretty hard against that position , and instead of fighting worldwide against worldwide fenomena of 21 century , every each one done it on it's one way.

[tony6]

I'm not worried about Soviet Union/iron curtain reactivation:)
It is great indeed that former Warsaw Pact countries join EU and so on.
What worries me is that our favorite duet (France/Germany) is going to dominate whole EU-and I don't like that idea.
If they have so much problems with Poland now what would it be when Turkey joins the EU? :D
Also I would rather have some US troops still here in Europe (just for sure:)

[Tengu]

yep I totaly agree with Kitsune on this one.

[martinexsquaddie]

I don't see any good reason for having US troops in europe the cold war is over.
afganistan is a fair mission for nato but it should stay out of iraq that was bush's folly the rest of the world said it was a bad move but he went ahead and did it anyway.
France's goverment needs to wind its neck in the EU is not a rival to the US but its not going to be a lapdog either

[Sabre]

Damn straight. There is no need for there to be any large US force in europe. The only aspect the US would hold on to would be their airbases. I don't think we would ever be able to get them to give those up, not without losing a fair amount ourselves in return.

Best to forge closer links with other European armies (France, Germany, Norway etc) and consider the requirement for the defence of what are essentially very similar countries.

This is by no means an attempt to exclude the US, and I mean no ill-feeling towards them, but it is time for Europeans to do what is best for them; much like America has always done for itself.

There is still a role for NATO, but its deployment needs to be carefully considered and action only taken in the interest of its members' safety.

I think the US should be encouraged by European leaders to act within the UN or NATO, but if it wants to go alone, there is little one can do. On the other hand, European leaders should not support the US taking action if it has not been sanctioned by either the UN or NATO.

[steel bonnet]

Why does the EU have to be stand alone Mustamato??

Why are we not strengthening our resolve around the world & with fellow humanity. Surely a united World Force would be a better place,than fragmented:- Euro,US,Africa,M.East,S.E.Asia communities.

Alas with Politicians being GREEDY,Power Crazed people,we cannot afford to EVER take the One world step,as it would truely go down hill very quickly.

I think the same to the EU will happen.Too many Politicians are wanting to aim for the Top job of leading it,with or without the US being a part. Currently Franco/German leaders DON`T want US involvement,whilst there are some who do.

There are Good merits to the idea,don`t get me wrong,l just see that a ACTUAL WORKING EU Nation wouldn`t be realized till the 2nd 3rd generation from now. As our own National Pride will stop it being a success.

I for one don`t want Some fat Politicians in Brussels telling me what/who,were l can go/do in the UK. Bad enough now with there stupid involvement in OUR OWN affairs.

So as said l do see merits,though with pride,Anti EU feeling l don`t want that. I think IF the UKs Goverment started to act in the Interest of UK citizens & NOT outsiders,then we could address our own Homeland defences.
Till they do,alas we`re open game,with us being a Stand alone nation or part of the Euro.

Ja
Steel bonnet

[obd]

Mustamoto, Im all for nationalism as long as it doesnt lead to stupidity. The very idea that the European Union is capable of some sort of foreign military action, such as war, peacekeeping, etc is prepesterous. The EU cant agree on the little things, much less something as important as international security. Not to mention the fact that Europeans are still very averse to the idea of war and sending troops off to foreign lands to die.

For example in Britain, one of the more powerfull nation states of Europe, latest defense review, they stated that the British military lacked the ability to fight another war fo Falklands magnitude alone.....I doubt the French or the Germans have that ability either, much less combined into one big cluster ****!! You guys dont even have the same com systems yet. you have different weapons systems. Just imagine the logistics nightmare!!! hahahahah. makes me laugh so hard I piss myself.

If you want a powerful army on paper to make yuorself feel better than thats fine but the German military has been severely crunched due to budget cuts over the years. The French are really the only ones with real ability at power projection on Europe these days. Hell, how will the Germans get there army to foreign lands hmmmm. I think it would take 50 years of intense developement to even equal what the US has now and in 50 years the US military will be beyond belief! Not to mention the fact that all that military spending at the probable cost of education and economic development will leave you worse off than now. Why does Europe even feel the need for a huge military. Granted it would be nice to see europe taking care of thier own damn neighborhood for ounce and I want US troops out of Europe as much as the next man but I just dont see that happening anytime soon. Also many European cities entire economy is based around thier US bases so pulling those out would put a huge damper on things. I doubt those Europeans are so eager to see Ämerca stop messing around in our internal affairs¨mustamoto....show a little respect to your betters man.+

[army cadet_ngcsu]

Well, as much as many of you in here would love to believe that the EU will not ever get in the way of the US, I think that you are wrong. Every year the US gets more and more conservative while the EU gets more and more liberal. In some areas, our views are completely different. Do you honestly think that the next 2 to 4 generations are just going to sit idley by and do nothing while the US basically does whatever it wants.

I seriously doubt if there will be a military conflict, but another Cold War or some type of relationship of hostility...it would not suprise me at all whatsoever. Look at it this way, just in this century alone the US has rebuilt Europe twice (WW1 and especially WW2), protected it against itself in puting down fascism, protected it again against the Soviets and the Iron Curtain, stopped ethnic cleansing in Bosnia and Kosovo, etc. And still most of Europe viewed us as imperialists and a bully even before Iraq. Now after Iraq the hate and distrust is more prevelant than ever! What will the views of Europeans be like in about 10 to 20 more years???

What will they do if the US tries something in their neck of the woods...say in Libya or Macedonia? Would we have to get their approval first or what if they did not approve because it was against their interest?

[martinexsquaddie]

we don't need to rival the US just put are own house in order the french and UKs carriers give the EU a decent carreir projection force. the new military airbus solves the airsupply problem if we but enough of them :(
soldiers tanks got plenty of them
just need a decent comm system
air power euro fighter can drop smart bombs it may not be ideal for that but its not like there's much going to bother it

[wholagun]

Every year the US gets more and more conservative while the EU gets more and more liberal. In some areas, our views are completely different.

Actually your wrong. In Europe right now there is something which political scientists call the "Americanization of the Europe Left" this means that Europeans are becomming more nad more right wing and market oriented. Look at Tony Blair and the Labour Party - no longer socialist, and a party that believes in competition and and lower taxes. Tony Blair even went as far as saying that is his predesessor Margret Thatcher have him a good base for the economy. <---- that is not left wing talk. Look at the SLD in Germany with Gerhard Shroader more and more right wing, not as much as US but we're not going more left. So your statement is false, I can provide further evidence if you want but not at this moment becausea im at home for spring break and not at school, but when I return on Sunday I can tell you the name name of the academic article and you can go read it.

[wholagun]

we don't need to rival the US just put are own house in order the french and UKs carriers give the EU a decent carreir projection force. the new military airbus solves the airsupply problem if we but enough of them :(
soldiers tanks got plenty of them
just need a decent comm system
air power euro fighter can drop smart bombs it may not be ideal for that but its not like there's much going to bother it

you forgot a good GPS system as well Magellin (spelling?)

[Shadow]

we don't need to rival the US just put are own house in order the french and UKs carriers give the EU a decent carreir projection force. the new military airbus solves the airsupply problem if we but enough of them :(
soldiers tanks got plenty of them
just need a decent comm system
air power euro fighter can drop smart bombs it may not be ideal for that but its not like there's much going to bother it

you forgot a good GPS system as well Magellin (spelling?)

You mean Gallileo?

I don't like this EU extension. The EU is big enough. (15 Members).
I could agree with 2-3 more but not 10.
And i 'm totaly against the joining of Turkey. Its not the Euro-Asian Union and most of Turkish population are poor farmers.
And if you have so many nations, you have to use a voting system were economyc power and population counts.

[fantassin]

That's why the US are so keen on seeing Turkey join the EU.

Integrating Turkey, if at all possible, would take decades; meanwhile, engrossed in its unfathomable problems, the EU would give the USA a free ride in the rest of the world.

It was the same in the Balkans; the USA have always supported the Moslems in Bosnia and in Kosovo because it was the best solution to create a rift in Europe and to leave the EU with a can of worms for the time being.

Mafias, islamic zealots, gun running, drugs, prostitution, illegal immigrants....with all that **** on its hands, the EU has no time to think about trying to extend its influence on the oil rich regions to the South of Russia where, curiously, Uncle Sam is now present in force, 7,000 kilometres away from its borders.

It took 9/11 to realize promoting the moslems could be a dangerous game.

[wholagun]

You mean Gallileo?

ah :cantbeli: scheisse, fick mich ins knee. Gaellileo not Magellin, my bad.

2-3 states into the EU at a time, ah no thats too little. At that rate it would take Poland another 20 years to join the EU. 10 can be alot 5 more like it, cough provided that Poland is one of the 5. :D

[Fioraon]

The problem is you are making unrealistic comparisons. If what the EU is looking for is a Defense Force then your biggest mistake is looking at the US Military. The ability to deploy light divisions with in hours to deploying heavy ones in just a matter of weeks half way around the world is a skill to be at awe about but is that something the EU is looking to become? The US Military has been building a mobile Army for nearly sixty years now and haven’t fought in a large conflict in which we didn’t have to step outside our borders in well over a century. The US Military wouldn’t be what it is today if we didn’t medal our way into foreign affairs and the demand to be at the ready in the case of a war much worse then any war fought before that would start on the other side of the planet.

Is this really what you want? A military you can shove in anyone’s face or a military to secure and defend Europe and its interest.

[Sixgun Symphony]

If accepted, the plan would mark a dramatic change in Europe's profile as a global player in defence and security.

"Dramatic change". Getting rid of the american involvment in our internal
affairs would be one big first step. To be able to take care of conflicts in our neighbouring areas (Africa, Balkans etc) without having to be under the command of a US general. Europe is probably already capable of that I should think.


I personally look forward to the day when we can pull our troops out of Europe. The Cold War is over and NATO has outlived its mission.

[cut]

I thought that was the plan, and establishing bases in eastern europe, closer to the middle east

[obd]

Fantassin, your a real idiot if you think the reason the US wants Turkey to join the EU is to "keep it down and mired in Turkeys problems so we do do as we want with the rest of the world". Your posts have a "conspiracy theorist gone mad" kind of ring to them whenever you talk of the United States. Its kinda funny actually. Everyting the US does is nefarious and evil and underhanded eh? MAybe thats why Europeans still flee here by the thousands to escape the bull**** of thier own countries.....I see more and more Europeans, and foreignors in general, here every single day. Hell, lets look at my freinds in high school: Best freind of Cuban heritage, good freind who moved from England back in 1992, two friends from India, one freind from Australia, 4 freinds from China, one from Japan.........I can go on and on.

The fact of the matter is this: America is what all you puny assed backward Europeans still wish you could be. We have the single most brilliant document in history, The US Constitution which was based partly on earlier British document, and our constitution has been in place in one piece longer than any other. America is the greatest nation on this earth. We are still the beacon of light for people seeking freedom and prosperity.

When you say bad things about Americans you are actually saying bad things about yourself and your own cultures because America is a land of European immigrants, African immigrants, Asian immigrants etc, most of whom I speak to say they have no wish to go back to thier own o****ries and are trying to move the rest of their family over!

As I said, its only natural to want the best for your own nation and to be nationalist and proud and all I got to say to you Mustumato is: Good luck to you and your country in an economic war with the United States. Sweden might be in the EU but its an economic lightweight and I think the EU is going to turn more into the "Franco-German Alliance" and all you little members are goign to move from being "pawns of the US as you say" to being the bitches of Germany and France. I'd like to get your comments on that in 30 years!!!!!

Also, nowhere else on this earth will you find a greater concentration of top University systems. America is still the bastion of the world for higher education. While there are brilliant systems in Europe, they still cant match the US in scope and scale and funding and student diversity and teacher diversity and etc and etc and etc.........

[fantassin]

Talking about conspiracy theories...

No, just experience; I have spent enough time in Kosovo and Bosnia to witness US options at first hand; arresting Albanians with grenades, handing them to US UNMIK police to see them freed at once; providing real time intelligence to Bosnians on other UN forces...

Supporting Bosnia throughout the war, knowing it would divide europeans and would favour the arrival of a lot of activists from Saudi Arabia was a conscious US policy from 1992 to 2001; the Balkans are now a festering gash in the side of Europe and this is partially because of the unbalanced support given to local moslems by the US.

Turkey's entrance into the EU has been permanently backed by the US as far as it was first coined.

I suppose you'd be thrilled to know your country suddendly has to integrate 62 million moslems whose per capita income is about 20,000 dollars lower than the rest of your countrymen and who still live in the 19th century for the best part....

Since 9/11 it has changed a bit but it's too late.

You take my post as a personal attack and your answer with hatred and name calling; not really very convincing and short on intelligence.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I thought that was the plan, and establishing bases in eastern europe, closer to the middle east

I would rather just pull out of Europe entirely and expand our sea lift capability.

I think our troops are needed more to restore order on our border with Mexico.

[wholagun]

bases to be in Eastern Europe are small bases that would only be used as support bases no to hold large number of US troops.

[ShadowNeo]

The fact of the matter is this: America is what all you puny assed backward Europeans still wish you could be. We have the single most brilliant document in history, The US Constitution which was based partly on earlier British document, and our constitution has been in place in one piece longer than any other. America is the greatest nation on this earth. We are still the beacon of light for people seeking freedom and prosperity.

Lol, if your going to write that, why not just write:

LOOK U FOOKIN CRAZY EUROTRASH, YOU WANNA BE US SINCE WE'RE, LIKE TEH KEWL!!!!! WE ARE TEH ****IN BEST IN TEH WERLD!!!! **** YOU ALL BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!

It would take up less of your time, and thats basically the sentiment I get when I read your posts. Makes you wonder why many here harbour anti-us sentiments eh? :roll:

[Seoulstriker]

ShadowNeo, you are against what the US stands for?

[ShadowNeo]

Am I against the ideals that America was founded for? No.

Do I get pissed off with unintellectual, biggotted "patriotic" posts such as obd's? Yes.

I don't feel the need to whip out a flag or belittle other people's countries to be proud of my own country. I don't have to post some "NANANANA NA! We're Better than you-ou" crap like obd does.

[Operation Ivy]

I think the US and EU should join forces and take over the world :D

[Seoulstriker]

opivy, we ARE the world. ;)

i wish obd wouldn't post the inflammatory patriotic posts, but i see nothing with his normal patriotic posts. the US is the best country in the world for many reasons. :)

[Sixgun Symphony]

Am I against the ideals that America was founded for? No.

Do I get pissed off with unintellectual, biggotted "patriotic" posts such as obd's? Yes.

I don't feel the need to whip out a flag or belittle other people's countries to be proud of my own country. I don't have to post some "NANANANA NA! We're Better than you-ou" crap like obd does.

The flames directed at Europeans have alot to due to the anti-American rhetoric coming from Europeans over the war in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I know it is not fair to paint all Europeans with such a wide brush. I have been guilty of that here too. But damn, alot of people we thought were our allies have betrayed us.

:-*$

[Sixgun Symphony]

I think the US and EU should join forces and take over the world :D

I would much rather have a national policy of armed nuetrality like the Swiss.

[Yard Ape]

I would much rather have a national policy of armed nuetrality like the Swiss.This policy was proven not to work in both world wars. The US thought it could live an isolated existance, but events in the world forced the country to fight both times. You cannot pretend that the US can live behind its borders unaffected by the outside world.

[obd]

Yes Fantasan thats right, the US gave support to the Muslums in Bosnia so they could rise up and take over all of Europe. Jesus your a moron. The fact of the matter is that the US aided the Muslums of Bosnia because they were being run out of thier homes and killed. In reality we helped capture and kill some of the radicals from places like Saudi Arabia. What are you Fantasin, an ex squaddie in Milosevich's army??

The second fact of the matter is that the whole area you call a "festering sore in Europe" would be a bleeding gash if it wernt for the United States. Europe was impotent to do a damn thing about it and who came in a wooped up on some neo fascist war criminal Nazi ass?? Thats right, the United States. Funny how we get the blame for the bad situation.....Your a real fool fantasan. Your one of those people who would call the United States evil if it intervened and evil if it didnt. Your just full of irrational hatred and jealosy so its useless even talking to you.....good luck with your radical crap and please..keep humoring me.

Does anyone else here actually buy this crap that fantasan is saying like "the United States wants Turkey in the EU to trap it in a unsurvavable quagmire so it can rule the world while Europe is sidetracked by the massive problems in Turkey". What a lode of crap.

Or get this, now Fantasan is trying to say that America gave "support to the Muslums to make the area a festering sore for Europe and drag it down". Are you F'ing kidding me or what?????

Fantassan, your a real piece of work. MAybe "Serbian Boy " would support you but he also supports killing all liberals and he loves Milosevich who is currently being tried by at the Hague, not in the US, as a war criminal....

Hey fantassan, you better keep quite or US CIA agents are going to come and kill you to stop you from exposing thier plans to destroy Europe though forcing it to accept Turkey into the EU and by stopping the slaughter of Muslums and many others in Bosnia. rofl

[serbian boy]

Tony6, the **** in the balkans happened due to U.S. , as soon as Tito died the U.S. government started making plans on how better to break up Yugoslavia to serve their interests. :slap:

[serbian boy]

And OBD you need to stop watching CNN and pick up an book! ;) :)

[Seiyuuki]

You realize that Europe and the U.S. represent about 10 - 13% of the world population, yet they control about 60 - 70% of the world market...or something like that. The economic relationship between Europe and the U.S. is so entrench that one cannot survive without the other.

I see the European Union as basically an emulation of the United States of America, except it is the United Countries of Europe. You basically have some of the same problems as when the original 13 colonies come together to formulate the U.S. The biggest hurdle those 13 colonies faced was how to fairly represent all the colonies. Small colonies such as Rhode Island demanded equal representation no matter the size or population and big colonies such as Virginia demanded representation based on population. This is the same problem I see within the EU, should it be base on population or something else and I see a lot of bickering among European's forum members concerning this subject. This is why I think the usual parliamentary system in Europe would not work for the EU, you need at least a bicameral legislature, one based on population for representation and the other is equal vote for all member. History have shown that this compromise work for the U.S. and look at where they are now, so I think this option should be greatly consider.

Second, the matter of nationalism. You ask someone from the U.S. whether they are an American or a Washingtonian or Californian first? The answer would be most likely, 99.99999% of the time, American first. Don't mean to sound all communist and all, but at a certain point, Europeans must look beyond their border at the collective good. You can't perceive the EU as a tool to be use to help your country improve that and this, but rather, it should be look forward as a united organization to improve Europe as a whole. Frankly, power-grabbing political maneuvering within the EU, for example, the French, but I'm sure there are other players also, is detrimental to the development of the EU.

Comments like, "Why the hell do we want Turkey, a nation of farmers..." or "We want Eastern Europe 'cause of cheap labor..." are not helping the cause. Isn't it one of the main purpose of the the EU and membership is that you want to be a part of something that support and promote values that transcend materialistic monetary pursuit?

It is easier to blame the U.S. for everything, but in the end, whether the EU succeed or not is in the hand of every Europeans.

If you take the time and analyze the early formation of the U.S. and the development of the current EU, you would be surprise to see great similarity between the two.

[fantassin]

Why the hell do we want Turkey....an ASIAN country, in Europe, that's the main question.

It's the EUROPEAN Union, not EURO-ASIAN union....

[Seiyuuki]

It's unfortunate that Turkey basically straddle the line between the Middle East/Asia and Europe, but the fact it is a member of NATO, by all mean, it should be consider.

[marktigger]

I think the EU getting involved in foreign affairs and Defence is a bad thing. The EU is a trading group and its foreign policy will be pitched in a way to support the ideals of the 2 major countries IE France and Germany. then they will put an EU seat on the UN security council to replace Britain but of course France will refuse to give up her seat.
Foreign and Defence policy should be for the Nation state to decide. Having watched the national interest cards being played by EU countries over the years The UK would have been seriously disadvantaged. The proposals for an EU army are interesting because I have only met a minority who would be prepered to serve in such a force. we took an oath to the Queen not to the EU.

[MARINO]

With the **** that we europeans spend in defence( specially Spain only 0'9% of our PIB we will do nothing.For that all europena countries shoul spent at least 2% or even 4%, and we should not opposse US but work with them.

[martinexsquaddie]

I don't think the EU or the UK should come running every time the US hollars
there is some merit in saying no does'nt look like a good idea
the Uk did'nt put troops into somalia case in point

[Loco]

You basically have some of the same problems as when the original 13 colonies come together to formulate the U.S. The biggest hurdle those 13 colonies faced was how to fairly represent all the colonies.

Second, the matter of nationalism. You ask someone from the U.S. whether they are an American or a Washingtonian or Californian first? The answer would be most likely, 99.99999% of the time, American first.

If you take the time and analyze the early formation of the U.S. and the development of the current EU, you would be surprise to see great similarity between the two.
Yes and no to what you say. USA was born of that 13 colonies, but those colonies really were populated by the same people of the same culture of the same origin, british at last with few groups of dutchs or germanies, but basically were the same people spared along the atlantic american coast. Europe is a phisical territory, but people who lives here are not the same, Europe is the result of invassions and inmigrations since more than 3.000 years ago, and this still hasn´t finished. When a polish, a russian jew, a russian slave, a russian tartar, a swedish and an english emigrate to USA, they simply forget for ever their cultural background and their national loyalties, which usually are weak, btw, because many emigrants leave their europeans countries(or africans, asians, etc) for getting a betting life than they had before, so they really don´t want being polish, russians, swedish and english anymore, they will only cook at home a cake following the recipe of their european granny, but that´s all what they want to keep of their european background. But if you live and will live in europe, how do you can forget your background and saying: I´m feel european first than spanish or french? Simply it´s absurd, I´m basque and spanish, and european as a result, but neither I feel closer to a slavian citizen than to a cuban one, nor I want to lose my identity in a bigger state, nobody can change my mind nor my preferences. Perhaps I´d like being Michael Douglas for sleeping every night with Catherine ZJones, but I´m not him nor I wouldn´t like to look like him, so why wondering about that? It hasn´t any sense.
As I see things, europeans must set up conditions(actually, that´s we are doing) for closing our ties, but we never must accelerate this evolution. If you look at how much europe has changed in the last 60 years, I think what our today situation is a miracle. My grandparents never could think in such success, so we musn´t be quickly in building europe, only doing things with consensus is the good way of building europe.


With the **** that we europeans spend in defence( specially Spain only 0'9% of our PIB we will do nothing.For that all europena countries shoul spent at least 2% or even 4%, and we should not opposse US but work with them.
Spain spends quite more in defence than a 0,9%. What our government has failed is in improving our spend in I+D, which is very poor, even a percentage of our I+D are defences researches, and it´s the wrong way. First of all is economy, once you´ve a good economy you can collect big taxes and spending more in defence, not the contrary. It´s easy to say that we must spend a 2% or even a 4%! in defence, but I think it´s time of our universities and our labs produces much more than before. I like looking advanced F-100 frigates, but I like more looking busy shipyards building tank ships, and medicine labs beginning new projects and our hospitals even better and our young people working and earning a good salary, not living at home with mamá and papá till they are +30 years old.

[marktigger]

Martin I agree and I don't think also we should be putting British troops lives on the line to promote french interests in Africa. Or German interests in the Balkans. Where we put UK troops should be decided by the UK government.
We should have a big enough armed forces to be able to operate unilaterley if necessary in our interest in a small to medium sized op. We cannot rely on backing from other EU countries. what would happen if we had to mount another Falklands op and had to ask the Spannish for permission to use our own forces?

[Loco]

What would happen if we had to mount another Falklands op and had to ask the Spannish for permission to use our own forces?
I don`t now always spanish soldiers aren´t involved. Falklands are far away from Spain, and last time spanish had a problem there was with british, what a coincidence, it must be more than 200 years ago, and only 1 frigate was enough to convince british of going back home, it seems as british were more reasonable time ago. G.Britain can do what ever they want with Falklands, it´s yours, and that war of 1982 was good for kicking out the dictatorship of Argentina. Only there would be any problem if a new Super Maggy decides bombing Buenos Aires, then sure there would be more than words, p-) but that´s a thing never is gonna happen. Any way, it´s sure the rest of europeans aren´t more greedy of being involved in british interests than british of having europeans involved in british interests.
Anyway, remember: Argentina is Argentina and Spain is Spain, same language, different people, different temperament.

[tooms]

East european countries are not in EU yet, a new " europe" in EU is already in construction because of discords

if unfortunately Turkey joins the EU ( wonder why they don't ask the europeans citizens opinion ), this new Europe will be a necessity.

[Pégase]

East european countries are not in EU yet, a new " europe" in EU is already in construction because of discords

if unfortunately Turkey joins the EU ( wonder why they don't ask the europeans citizens opinion ), this new Europe will be a necessity.

could you develop on what you call "new Europe" please ?

[tooms]

could you develop on what you call "new Europe" please ?


I mean that some of european countries are developping their own projects:

-we cannot make an european defense? 4 countries are creating their own. It's open to the other countries if they accept some rules.

-We cannot all agree on foreign policy? Germany and France began to speak together, and will do that more often.

-We cannot all agree on an economic plan for Europe? three countries organised a mini meeting last days to make their own.

you will see that more and more.

Can we all (25 ) agree and progress at the same time? No

look at Iraq, and foreign policy in general, the discords appeared between the "new" Europe and the "old" one, i don't judge them, but some countries sometimes should "ally" to represent their opinions and make their voice "bigger".

You will maybe say, it has been always like that and we finally soved most of the problems, but now, the number of europeans states is too big for global consensus, it's normal.

imagine with Turkey in it...

[marktigger]

there is alot of sympathy of the argentine cause in some groups in spain. The point I'm making is decisions about were and what a nation state decides to do with its army should be up to that nation state and not a qualified majority vote from countries surrounding it.

The EU should stick to what it is best at being a trading group and inventing pointless legislation.

[cut]

I see the European Union as basically an emulation of the United States of America, except it is the United Countries of Europe.

Countries and states are essentially the same thing as in European member states. Even the US is actually one federal state. So it is in fact the United States of Europe, but the member states would never allow it to be called that

[mustamato]

Countries and states are essentially the same thing as in European member states. Even the US is actually one federal state. So it is in fact the United States of Europe,but the member states would never allow it to be called that

Who knows, have you not heard about this "Made in EU" that is supposed
to replace "Made in (choose the country)". A couple of years ago there was some
country that thought that all the EU countries having a combined flag during the
opening ceremonies at the Olympics would be such a great idea. Of course he
was thought of as a lunatic. But who knows, who knows. "Made in EU", common
flags and all this, small details yet, but many of those small details, and suddenly
we are living in EU and not in Sweden, Germany or whatever.

[Truthsayer]

I wouldn't mind...borders only breeds patriots and bickering.

[Pégase]

...


oh I thought u refered to the Donald Rumsfeld's remark in 2003, when he said somethin like "Germany and France are a problem and represent old Europe"

that was before the "punish France, ignore Germany, forgive Russia" politic of the Bush administration

Divide et impera (u can translate it by "divide and rule") is not a new tactic you know

[tooms]

...


oh I thought u refered to the Donald Rumsfeld's remark in 2003, when he said somethin like "Germany and France are a problem and represent old Europe"




that sentence was told by an old man ;)

[haze99]

Yes, the EU will become a huge pact. By the way, the global leader will take charge of it, for his purposes.
Many will fall because of his plans, he is coming. You are forewarned!

[Yard Ape]

I see the European Union as basically an emulation of the United States of America, except it is the United Countries of Europe.

Countries and states are essentially the same thing as in European member states. Even the US is actually one federal state. So it is in fact the United States of Europe, but the member states would never allow it to be called that

Another pan European war may be fought before this is decided.



Actually we should have avoided the civil war and hanged all the traitor Confederacy, We should have went head first into WWI and WWII

The states had much more soveriegnty before the civil war. One used to speak of the United States as these united states rather than the United States.

The point in dispute was if states that could enter freely into the union would also be free to leave the union.From Kerry wanted all US troops under UN control (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=157720#157720)

[Sixgun Symphony]

Yard Ape,

You made a very good point.

[Yard Ape]

yeah. Occasionally, even I have too.

[oldsoak]

The way around the problems of deciding whose troops do a job is for the EU to raise its own forces, ie it has the power to recruit, arm and task a body of troops independent of any state. An EU foreign legion if you like. Any EU national may join this army and he/she is in the employment of Brussels just as EU commissioners are. Now theres a thought...