Warsaw Uprising- pics

[Chmiel]

few pics from superb site
http://www.whatfor.prv.pl/

AK - Armia Krajowa - Domestic (National)Army

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa1/kama_krzych.jpg
soldiers from AK Batalion "Parasol" (Umbrella)

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/anowe/kazdy_pocisk.gif
polish Underground Army's propaganda poster "Kazdy pocisk , jeden Niemiec" means "Each round - one German"

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa5/wojtek.jpg
Unknown polish AK soldier with dead body of 11 y.o. Wojtek Zalewski pseudo "White Eagle" - soldier from sturm group "Grzes" II baon, group "Chrobry II"

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa1/warecka.jpg
Warsaw insurgent's after heavy fighting in Old Town

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/kedyw_pliki/laczniczka_ak.jpg
unknown signaller from AK (Old Town)

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa3/kolegium_a_wola.jpg
Kedyw ( sabotage management)"Kolegium A" - Wola discrict

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa1/kola.jpg
Kedyw AK - in captured uniforms

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa5/mg42_srdm.jpg
Insurgents on baricade with MG-42

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa5/b229c.jpg
little girl on the improvised graveyard

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa4/b259.jpg
AK insurgent during the fight near the Warsaw University

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa4/b316.jpg
Round from "Thor" mortar hits Prudiental Building

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa4/b355.jpg
captured german soldiers, escorted by AK field gendarmery

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa5/b519.jpg
soldiers from mjr "Rog" squad

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa1/an1.jpg
2nd leutnant "Jur" - Jerzy Siwiec is throwing grenade

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa2/gustaw_15.jpg
soldiers from "Anna" company 3.X.44

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa3/aspira3.jpg
Lt. "Aspira" is showing banner from killed SS - soldier (Viking)

it's all for now...

[wholagun]

kick ass pics, very nice.

[Chmiel]

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa3/barry_sdrm.jpg
AK's military police unit, during Uprising1944

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/foty/chwat_1.jpg
AK's soldiers from Baon"Kilinski" with their trophy

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa2/gustaw_66.jpg
"Sixton" (Jerzy Sikorski) and 2ndLt"Jur"(Jerzy Siwiec) 01.09.1944

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa3/kompol2.jpg
German POW, taken by the AK's soldiers

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa1/nordwache_lip.jpg
"Nordwache" Zelazna Street. Picture taken by the AK's Intelligence before Warsaw Uprising

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa2/bunkier_nordwach.jpg
"Nordwache" - TAKEN!!!! second day of Warsaw Uprising 02.08.1944

[Vance]

Nice pictures. We watched Escape From Sobibor today in US History, about the most successful concentration camp revolt in WWII. Over 300 of the 600 prisoners escaped. I can't remember how many Germans they killed.

[duck]

Pictures of Freedom during the darkest hour, amazing. If only the people of Russia had seen these pictures and sent Stalin and Berija to the labor camps of Siberia.

[Chmiel]

Nice pictures. We watched Escape From Sobibor today in US History, about the most successful concentration camp revolt in WWII. Over 300 of the 600 prisoners escaped. I can't remember how many Germans they killed.

Yes, but this is a different story.
F.e.:
Warsaw GHETTO Uprising was in April 1943.

These pics are from Warsaw Uprising in 1944.

[George W. Bush]

Jews are great fighters.

Now if only the Iraqis could have fought against Saddam for their freedom we wouldn't be in this mess today.

[Chmiel]

Jews are great fighters.


Jews? I know they were great fighters. But in 1943....NOT IN 1944!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AK - this is a POLISH UNDERGROUND ARMY....
Geeeeeeez!!!!!

READ THE BACKGROUND!!!!!!!
http://www.humboldt.edu/~rescuers/book/damski/dlinks/warsupris.html

[zenmaster]

Nevermind that the Polish Underground didn't lift a finger to help the Jewish resistance while they were getting slaughtered in the ghetto.

[George W. Bush]

ZING!

[Vance]

Nice pictures. We watched Escape From Sobibor today in US History, about the most successful concentration camp revolt in WWII. Over 300 of the 600 prisoners escaped. I can't remember how many Germans they killed.

Yes, but this is a different story.
F.e.:
Warsaw GHETTO Uprising was in April 1943.

These pics are from Warsaw Uprising in 1944.
No ****. I was just informing you that what we saw is related to this.

[Piotrek]

Hi, i'm new here, and sorry about my English skills :)


Nevermind that the Polish Underground didn't lift a finger to help the Jewish resistance while they were getting slaughtered in the ghetto.

please read below, and stop talking bull****

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zegota

[wholagun]

Nevermind that the Polish Underground didn't lift a finger to help the Jewish resistance while they were getting slaughtered in the ghetto.

who do you think provided the Jewish resistance in the ghetto with weapons and ammo etc? Military equipment didn't just magically appear, it was provided to the Jewish by the Polish resistance.

Why do I got a feeling that this will lead to one more flame war. :cantbeli: Polish vs Jews/everyone else. Hopefully not.

Piotrek witam.

[Lone Predator]

Nevermind that the Polish Underground didn't lift a finger to help the Jewish resistance while they were getting slaughtered in the ghetto.

The common enemy were the nazi's, why are you picking on one group of fellow resistance fighters.
:fork:

[mack pl]

Hey, Zenmaster, stop talking BS :bash: I guess you are 13 years old, so you didnt learn about ghetto uprising yet in your school(or you have some german teacher who talking bs about it) ;) Go to library and get some good WWII history book ;)

[Groove]

The russians were already within artillery range to help polish soldiers. But Stalin this MF decided to let the germans slaughter the polish uprising because he didnt wanted any resistance against his regime after liberating Poland.

That is one of the cases why poles dont "like" russians...

Groove

[mack pl]

Stalin was from Georgia, so, we dont like russian politics. People from Russia mostly are cool(i hope) ;)

[Groove]

dont ask "older" ppl about their opinion about russia ;)

but its a long time ago...


Groove

[mack pl]

I asked my grandpa about his opinion . Well, he have very bad opinion about them :|

[Piotrek]

few photos from http://www.ipn.gov.pl:


http://www.ipn.gov.pl/fullimages/59969_f.jpg
I think it's piat on the left - Insurgents had few of them.

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/fullimages/60163_f.jpg
Girls also tooke part in the fight.

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/fullimages//60160_f.jpg
Gangsta :)

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/fullimages/59958_f.jpg
barricade at Mazowiecka street

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/fullimages/36170_f.jpg
Captured Panzerjäger 38(t) called "Chawt" (don't konw how to translate it to english)

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/fullimages/36171_f.jpg
Captured SdKfz 251 "Szary Wilk" ("Grey Wolf")

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/fullimages/36177_f.jpg
recovering explosives from duds

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/fullimages/2641_f.jpg
under fire

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/fullimages/59946_f.jpg
home made flamethrower or mayby captured one?

[Russian Texan]

I really don't get where it all comes from but I remember reading an article about Zhukov. There was some kind of an official reception in Moscow dedicated to the Victory Day and apparently Zhukov refused to come when he found out that he will have to seat at the same table with some polish general. It took a phone call from Stalin to make him come to the ceremony but even then Zhukov refused to shake the hand of the polish general and made a comment about poles: something like they were not worthy the lives of russian soldiers that died to liberate them.

[Piotrek]

I really don't get where it all comes from but I remember reading an article about Zhukov. There was some kind of an official reception in Moscow dedicated to the Victory Day and apparently Zhukov refused to come when he found out that he will have to seat at the same table with some polish general. It took a phone call from Stalin to make him come to the ceremony but even then Zhukov refused to shake the hand of the polish general and made a comment about poles: something like they were not worthy the lives of russian soldiers that died to liberate them.

The soviet way of liberating people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn

[Piotrek]

And to be exact RussianTexan - I really appreciate sacrificion of russian nation during the second world war but our nation also sacrificied alot of it's beast man.
In fact I think that's Stalins fault that your nation had to suffer such big number of victims during IIww.

[mustamato]

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa2/gustaw_15.jpg
I guess that´s one of the "home-made" STEN´s?

Blyskawica. For those of you that didn´t know there were resistance
workshops producing copies of the STEN submachine gun.

http://fk1.webpark.pl/blysk1.gif

http://www.cruffler.com/Sten686-A.jpg

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa2/gustaw_3.jpg

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa3/blyskaw_kil.jpg

http://hem.passagen.se/dadkri/Blyskawica.htm

http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-October00.html

[Piotrek]

Ther were also home made famethrowers like this one:
http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/aa1/mpl_ak.gif

Vis pistols were assembled from parts stolen from Fabrka Bronii w Radomiu which was taken over by Germans (whitout barrels which were made at Leszno streed in Warsaw by Home Army)
http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/niemiecka_bron_strzelecka_pliki/vis_czesci_bt.gif

And ofcourse home made armored car "Kubuś":
http://www.republika.pl/panzer10/panzer10/polska/kubus1.jpg

[Groove]

its not the fault of the russian conscript why almost all the "old" poles hate russians - even more they hate ukrainians.

Its Stalin himself. Never forget the Hitler-Stalin pact. And the murdering in Katyn. The worsest butchers in Warsaw Uprising were Ukrainians. They were like animals. Germans had this Ukraininans for really bad "jobs" everywere in the occupied Eastern-Europe. The region were im from in Poland (south-east) Ukrainians arent really "welcome" til today.

Other problem is that poland wasnt comunism-friendly and they were "captured" behind the iron curtain for decades. Well the history is full of pole-russian issues.

Groove

[fdt]

Nevermind that the Polish Underground didn't lift a finger to help the Jewish resistance while they were getting slaughtered in the ghetto. Considering the resources posessed and risk who has done more for the jewish uprising in 1943 (AK's one was 1944) than Polish Home Army? Have British, Americans or Russians made any equipment drops to the fighting ghetto? Or anybody has done anything for them?? Please dont't tell me that in 1943 nobody knew anything in the West... in 1941 Jan Karski, the PHA courier has delivered a hard evidence to the UK and US govts what is really happening to Jewish population of Poland... another followed in next years... The reports were not published. Why? Show me another resistance in Europe that had it's own special department dedicated to support the Jewish resistance (false documents supplies, hiding the children etc)... PHA (AK) has it's "Żegota" dept that was supplying the (from it's own very thin supplies) Jewish Insurgents with guns and ammo. Of course it was not enough, but You must realize that PHA had at it's disposal only the resources of robbed and destroyed occupied country... not the free economies with great industrial capabilities.... It was simply as much as it was possible to get then and there...

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

I really don't get where it all comes from but I remember reading an article about Zhukov. There was some kind of an official reception in Moscow dedicated to the Victory Day and apparently Zhukov refused to come when he found out that he will have to seat at the same table with some polish general. It took a phone call from Stalin to make him come to the ceremony but even then Zhukov refused to shake the hand of the polish general and made a comment about poles: something like they were not worthy the lives of russian soldiers that died to liberate them.

Poland lies between Russia and Germany, sou you had to liberate us :D .

And If you Russians hate us so much, nuke us and solve the problem
:|

[wholagun]

And If you Russians hate us so much, nuke us and solve the problem



WHAT!!!! SSSHHHHH keep your mouth shut, don't encourage them. p-) Man if you nuke us there will be no comming back after 300 years as we did in 1918, this time we will be gone for good. :cantbeli:

[Uninen]

Does anybody have that photo in which the Waffen-SS soldiers pull that terrorist out from the sewers after their battle had failed?

[Chmiel]

Does anybody have that photo in which the Waffen-SS soldiers pull that terrorist out from the sewers after their battle had failed?

UNINEN maybe you should go find some terrorist in Chechnya... :bash:
Polish AK' soldiers used sewers to sneak trough enemy lines, during Warsaw Uprising, or to evacuate wounded or civilians...

[GazB]

The russians were already within artillery range to help polish soldiers. But Stalin this MF decided to let the germans slaughter the polish uprising because he didnt wanted any resistance against his regime after liberating Poland.

Yes, of course. Stalin was going to share power with those who rose up. Of course they didn't try to rise up until the Soviets had done all the work of wearing out and defeating the germans and pushed them back to Polands borders. Stalin ruthlessly let the Germans do what he most likely would have done anyway. Removed the Pro British Polish government and installed his own cronies. Doing it the way he did he saved Soviet lives and ammo and wasted German lives and ammo, and the lives of those who were his enemies in Poland anyway.


The soviet way of liberating people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn


Ignorance.

How does Stalins method of eliminating potential political enemies equate to Soviet way of liberating people?


Never forget the Hitler-Stalin pact.

Britain was approached but as the Phoney war showed Britain could do nothing to help the Soviet Union. If Stalin had not signed the agreement with germany then germany would be half the width of Poland closer to Moscow at the begining of Barbarossa, which might have started much quicker. Hardly in the SU interests. And don't tell me Britain or Poland or even the US did anything that wasn't in their interests.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

It's sad but it's true.

In politics there's no place for sentiments, only a cold calculation of profits and losses

[perdurabo]

Jep thats true UK and France (and USA afther war) did nothing to help us we remember that. :-*$

[Piotrek]

Yes, of course. Stalin was going to share power with those who rose up. Of course they didn't try to rise up until the Soviets had done all the work of wearing out and defeating the germans and pushed them back to Polands borders.

Of course Warsaw uprising and others of "Plan Storm" were, in fact, aimd against soviet authorities. They were planed by legal polish authorities.
But if liberating of poland was soviets intention, what was Russian Texan point, whay they didnt helped? They didn't helpd becouse it wasn't liberation but it was getting new spoils - and don't expect us to be happy with that.


Ignorance.

How does Stalins method of eliminating potential political enemies equate to Soviet way of liberating people?


Well if you liberate someone, and you give him right to choose, you dont have to and dont want to shoot him in the occiput - right?? Katyn showed soviet and stalins intentions.


And don't tell me Britain or Poland or even the US did anything that wasn't in their interests.

I'm not saying this - after all we took Zaolzie after Germany had invaded Czechoslovakia :oops:

[Piotrek]

Man if you nuke us there will be no comming back after 300 years as we did in 1918, this time we will be gone for good.

Well, Wholagun, not after 300 years but after 123 years

:)

[LeMat]

I'm not saying this - after all we took Zaolzie after Germany had invaded Czechoslovakia :oops:

Remember, that Zaolzie was ours. During the war with Russia in 1919-20 Czechoslovakia invaded Zaolzie and captured it. So we could took it - it was ours.

[Herrmannek]

The russians were already within artillery range to help polish soldiers. But Stalin this MF decided to let the germans slaughter the polish uprising because he didnt wanted any resistance against his regime after liberating Poland.

Yes, of course. Stalin was going to share power with those who rose up. Of course they didn't try to rise up until the Soviets had done all the work of wearing out and defeating the germans and pushed them back to Polands borders. Stalin ruthlessly let the Germans do what he most likely would have done anyway. Removed the Pro British Polish government and installed his own cronies. Doing it the way he did he saved Soviet lives and ammo and wasted German lives and ammo, and the lives of those who were his enemies in Poland anyway.

Like always GazB, you are inverting cat with his tail...
a)If not Allies..Stalin wouldn't have strenght to defeat nazi's, even to scrach nazis ass...
b)Polish defeat in Warsaw Uprising didn't helped Stalin in removing Polish pro British gov. nor helped him in installing his own cronies. This all happened after the war.
c)Why do you think that Stalin's waiting saved at least one soviet soldier life? Ussualy "2 on 1" is much more efective than "1 after 1 on 1",but you know Stalin never was good strategist...





The soviet way of liberating people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn


Ignorance.

How does Stalins method of eliminating potential political enemies equate to Soviet way of liberating people?


Maybe because first was indispensable part of second?
And thing isn't about metod of eliminating, but about fact of eliminating.




Never forget the Hitler-Stalin pact.

Britain was approached but as the Phoney war showed Britain could do nothing to help the Soviet Union. If Stalin had not signed the agreement with germany then germany would be half the width of Poland closer to Moscow at the begining of Barbarossa, which might have started much quicker. Hardly in the SU interests. And don't tell me Britain or Poland or even the US did anything that wasn't in their interests.
Only reason Stalin helped Germans in 1939 was to not fighting Poland on road to Berlin..Hitler knew that Russia will try to attack Germany when they will be in half of "search" for Lebensraum in Africa and West Europe, so he chosed to start first...

[citizen-k]

Nevermind that the Polish Underground didn't lift a finger to help the Jewish resistance while they were getting slaughtered in the ghetto.

Thats BULL****!!!

Jews and Polish underground fought together, fact!

My grandfathers brother (who, how surprising - was a Jew) fought with the polish underground outside the ghetto.

No need to make yourself a bigger victim then you are.

[citizen-k]

By the way - a few years ago one of the first female pilots in the IAF was the grand daughter of one of the leaders of the 1943 rebelion of the Warsaw ghetto.

Please correct me: "Karova nie vada" (maybe korova...)

[GazB]

They didn't helpd becouse it wasn't liberation but it was getting new spoils - and don't expect us to be happy with that.


The Russians never promised to liberate anyone during WWII. The fact that they made a pact with Germany and took half your territory should have made you realise that. Of course the fact that they didn't try to absorb all of Eastern Europe to become part of Russia should also make it clear it was not about Imperialism either. Over recent history Russia had been hurt quite badly by Napoleon and Hitler. The occupation of Europe was merely to prevent a strong Germany from rising up any time soon and to create a buffer of friendly (puppet) nations between the SU and the west. It seems perfectly logical to me. I don't expect you to like it any more than I would like it if I were in your position, but considering what Stalin did to Russia and the Russians it could have been worse for the Poles and Czechs and Roumanians etc etc than it was.


Well if you liberate someone, and you give him right to choose, you dont have to and dont want to shoot him in the occiput - right?? Katyn showed soviet and stalins intentions.

Who said anything about liberation? If they did want to liberate the Poles they would obviously not have acted the way they did. But then as you admit, if you actually expected them to come in as liberators then your peoples actions would probably have been rather different too. No sneaky uprisings to take power before the Russians got there and all that...


Remember, that Zaolzie was ours. During the war with Russia in 1919-20 Czechoslovakia invaded Zaolzie and captured it. So we could took it - it was ours.

You took it... it was yours. Sounds like something Stalin or Adolf or Saddam would say... it was ours on xxxx a date so we can take it back with impunity.



a)If not Allies..Stalin wouldn't have strenght to defeat nazi's, even to scrach nazis ass...


Hahahahahaha... yes, of course... it wasn't russians fighting and dying in Leningrad and Stalingrad that won the war... it was Spam and lend lease trucks. Without the allies the Germans probably would have captured Moscow. Big deal. Napoleon captured it too. A lot of good it did him. It takes rather more than taking and holding Russian cities to win a war on their turf.


b)Polish defeat in Warsaw Uprising didn't helped Stalin in removing Polish pro British gov. nor helped him in installing his own cronies. This all happened after the war.

The Polish government in exile remained in exile. Those it supported did rise up and were killed by the Nazis, they would have remained loyal to the exiled government and therefore rather not much of a puppet government. By inciting an uprising and then allowing the nazis a free hand eliminated most of the able bodied support for the exiled government. Stalin was able to destroy any chance of it taking power before his forces arrived.


c)Why do you think that Stalin's waiting saved at least one soviet soldier life? Ussualy "2 on 1" is much more efective than "1 after 1 on 1",but you know Stalin never was good strategist...


I doubt it saved an Soviet soldiers life and I said as much... it wasted nazi bullets and weapons, and "used up" a potential internal enemy.


Maybe because first was indispensable part of second?
And thing isn't about metod of eliminating, but about fact of eliminating.

So everything that Stalin did is what the Soviet Union is?
What a retarded view.

Shall we judge Europeans by their treatment of blacks as slaves a few centuries ago? Is the treatment of the American Indians a good measure of what modern Americans are like. Is Bill Clinton or George Bush jnr a good yard stick to judge all Americans by? How many Britons are like Tony Blair?

I guess We will have to hate Georgians and Austrians... because of Stain and Hitler respectively...


Only reason Stalin helped Germans in 1939 was to not fighting Poland on road to Berlin..Hitler knew that Russia will try to attack Germany when they will be in half of "search" for Lebensraum in Africa and West Europe, so he chosed to start first...


Hitler knew he would invade the Soviet Union eventually, but he saw western europe as a greater threat that needed to be dealt with first.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

I'm not saying this - after all we took Zaolzie after Germany had invaded Czechoslovakia :oops:

Remember, that Zaolzie was ours. During the war with Russia in 1919-20 Czechoslovakia invaded Zaolzie and captured it. So we could took it - it was ours.

It was more complicated issue than 'ours' or 'yours'

But- capturing Zaolzie was one of the biggests political mistakes of pre-war Polish government.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

a)If not Allies..Stalin wouldn't have strenght to defeat nazi's, even to scrach nazis ass...


:cantbeli:

Only about 10% of RKKA's armament was delivered by Allies.

[Catch22]

Please correct me: "Karova nie vada" (maybe korova...)


Well... its "Krew nie woda" actually - old polish syaing litteraly meaning: "Blood is no water", so the bloodstains wont dry that easy...

BTW "Karowa" is a narrow, steep street with plenty of turns near Vistula river close to the Old town- it has seen a lot of fighting during the 44 Uprising.

And thank you for posting citizen-k - i thought it wolud be good that someone of jewish origin would add an opinion. I'm not intending to prove that all Poles were helping Jews during the german occupation, there were traitors of course - their terason was motivated either by hate, money or fear. But all also it is to be remembered that AK courts sentenced such people to death, and have them executed.

[Herrmannek]

a)If not Allies..Stalin wouldn't have strenght to defeat nazi's, even to scrach nazis ass...


:cantbeli:

Only about 10% of RKKA's armament was delivered by Allies.

So allied bombardments of german territory, taking out german oil sources, engaging big part of german army, slowering developmnet of nuclear wepons is nothing? Stalin alone could fart and die nothing more...

[Herrmannek]

They didn't helpd becouse it wasn't liberation but it was getting new spoils - and don't expect us to be happy with that.


The Russians never promised to liberate anyone during WWII. The fact that they made a pact with Germany and took half your territory should have made you realise that. Of course the fact that they didn't try to absorb all of Eastern Europe to become part of Russia should also make it clear it was not about Imperialism either. Over recent history Russia had been hurt quite badly by Napoleon and Hitler. The occupation of Europe was merely to prevent a strong Germany from rising up any time soon and to create a buffer of friendly (puppet) nations between the SU and the west. It seems perfectly logical to me. I don't expect you to like it any more than I would like it if I were in your position, but considering what Stalin did to Russia and the Russians it could have been worse for the Poles and Czechs and Roumanians etc etc than it was.


Well if you liberate someone, and you give him right to choose, you dont have to and dont want to shoot him in the occiput - right?? Katyn showed soviet and stalins intentions.

Who said anything about liberation? If they did want to liberate the Poles they would obviously not have acted the way they did. But then as you admit, if you actually expected them to come in as liberators then your peoples actions would probably have been rather different too. No sneaky uprisings to take power before the Russians got there and all that...


Remember, that Zaolzie was ours. During the war with Russia in 1919-20 Czechoslovakia invaded Zaolzie and captured it. So we could took it - it was ours.

You took it... it was yours. Sounds like something Stalin or Adolf or Saddam would say... it was ours on xxxx a date so we can take it back with impunity.



a)If not Allies..Stalin wouldn't have strenght to defeat nazi's, even to scrach nazis ass...


Hahahahahaha... yes, of course... it wasn't russians fighting and dying in Leningrad and Stalingrad that won the war... it was Spam and lend lease trucks. Without the allies the Germans probably would have captured Moscow. Big deal. Napoleon captured it too. A lot of good it did him. It takes rather more than taking and holding Russian cities to win a war on their turf.


b)Polish defeat in Warsaw Uprising didn't helped Stalin in removing Polish pro British gov. nor helped him in installing his own cronies. This all happened after the war.

The Polish government in exile remained in exile. Those it supported did rise up and were killed by the Nazis, they would have remained loyal to the exiled government and therefore rather not much of a puppet government. By inciting an uprising and then allowing the nazis a free hand eliminated most of the able bodied support for the exiled government. Stalin was able to destroy any chance of it taking power before his forces arrived.


c)Why do you think that Stalin's waiting saved at least one soviet soldier life? Ussualy "2 on 1" is much more efective than "1 after 1 on 1",but you know Stalin never was good strategist...


I doubt it saved an Soviet soldiers life and I said as much... it wasted nazi bullets and weapons, and "used up" a potential internal enemy.


Maybe because first was indispensable part of second?
And thing isn't about metod of eliminating, but about fact of eliminating.

So everything that Stalin did is what the Soviet Union is?
What a retarded view.

Shall we judge Europeans by their treatment of blacks as slaves a few centuries ago? Is the treatment of the American Indians a good measure of what modern Americans are like. Is Bill Clinton or George Bush jnr a good yard stick to judge all Americans by? How many Britons are like Tony Blair?

I guess We will have to hate Georgians and Austrians... because of Stain and Hitler respectively...


Only reason Stalin helped Germans in 1939 was to not fighting Poland on road to Berlin..Hitler knew that Russia will try to attack Germany when they will be in half of "search" for Lebensraum in Africa and West Europe, so he chosed to start first...


Hitler knew he would invade the Soviet Union eventually, but he saw western europe as a greater threat that needed to be dealt with first.

GazB you are wrong again...
Soviet union propaganda for 45 yers was saying that Stalin liberated Poland, this ends disscussion in that matter :). Whe know that Stalin was bastard, that isn't thing we are arguing about...Stalin always wanted to rule the world and socalled "liberation of Poland" can't be explained by particular buissneses or simmiliar reasons. Stalin was the same class dictator as Hitler and nothing you say GazB can change this...

About Zaolzie, this teritory was mainly occupied by Poles, yes it maybe wasn't moral clean case, but it was nothing in compartion to other nations :)

BTW: Stalin was Soviet Union, nothing there happened without his direct order or permission

[lekomin]

Thats BULL****!!!

Jews and Polish underground fought together, fact!

My grandfathers brother (who, how surprising - was a Jew) fought with the polish underground outside the ghetto.

No need to make yourself a bigger victim then you are.
I've been to Yad Vashem. There are mostly polish names by the trees...
One of the Zegota leaders, Wladyslaw Bartoszewski, (Zegota being the AK's liason organisation tasked in supporting Jews) became Polish Foreign Affairs Minister in the 1990's. He is a true hero for both Jews and Poles.
take care
lekomin inc

[lekomin]

Does anybody have that photo in which the Waffen-SS soldiers pull that terrorist out from the sewers after their battle had failed?
AK does not fit a description of an terrorist organisation. Some of the Waffen-SS units fit it to the letter though.
Take care
lekomin inc

[lekomin]

Nevermind that the Polish Underground didn't lift a finger to help the Jewish resistance while they were getting slaughtered in the ghetto.
yeah.. they should provide them with M1A2 SEP Abrams tanks, Apache helos and G36K assault rifles.
In reality AK provided ZOB (Zydowska Organisacja Bojowa; Jewish Fighting Organisation) with a modest supply of weapons and ammunition. It was modest because the amount of weapons in AK's armoury was "modest" by all accounts.. AK simply had no weapons to give away. Secondly everybody knew (ZOB included) that the fight in the Ghetto was a lost cause (note: I don't say "pointless", it is a better way to die in a battle then in a gas chamber) as ZOB had no chance of sustained fight not to even mention a victory. AK new that all the weapon they give to ZOB will end up in hands of a dead ZOB fighter instead of in hands of living AK fighter that could use it for many months to come in Poland under occupation. It wasn't an easy call but there are never easy in the time of war. As a result ZOB received as many weapons as AK could give and they made a very good use of it.
Except weapons AK provided ZOB with safehouses outside the Ghetto, organised harrasing attack on the forces storming the Ghetto and simply did all it could do to help.
Most of the ZOB leaders commited suicide when their capture by the Germans became inevitable.
Take care,
lekomin inc

[Piotrek]

The Russians never promised to liberate anyone during WWII. The fact that they made a pact with Germany and took half your territory should have made you realise that.

For about a half of the century they were saying that it was liberation.


Of course the fact that they didn't try to absorb all of Eastern Europe to become part of Russia should also make it clear it was not about Imperialism either.

What about Latvia, Estonia, Finland?? Man..saying that Stalin wasn't imperialist is like saying that Hitler was peacefull guy. And after IIww why they attached Baltic Countrys to the Soviet Union?



Over recent history Russia had been hurt quite badly by Napoleon and Hitler. The occupation of Europe was merely to prevent a strong Germany from rising up any time soon and to create a buffer of friendly (puppet) nations between the SU and the west.

Sorry but what does it mean "friendly (puppet) nations"?? You dont make friends by taking away their freedom - right? Puppet nation...mayby puppet government?? How a whol nation can be a puppet - thats quite offensive, you know!!


It seems perfectly logical to me.

ofcourse - it's logical when you treat other people as tools, and you are an imperialist..or mayby to use your own words when you treat other people as "puppets".


Who said anything about liberation?

Soviet propaganda.


If they did want to liberate the Poles they would obviously not have acted the way they did.

good point.


But then as you admit, if you actually expected them to come in as liberators then your peoples actions would probably have been rather different too.

Well, we didn't expect them to liberate us - we expected them to help us during the fight against Nazist - common enemy.


No sneaky uprisings to take power before the Russians got there and all that...

Sneaky..huh?? Please enlight me - was the Paris uprising also sneaky??


So everything that Stalin did is what the Soviet Union is?
What a retarded view.

So please, tell me, what are those things wee should be gratefull for??

[citizen-k]

Please correct me: "Karova nie vada" (maybe korova...)


Well... its "Krew nie woda" actually - old polish syaing litteraly meaning: "Blood is no water", so the bloodstains wont dry that easy...

BTW "Karowa" is a narrow, steep street with plenty of turns near Vistula river close to the Old town- it has seen a lot of fighting during the 44 Uprising.

And thank you for posting citizen-k - i thought it wolud be good that someone of jewish origin would add an opinion. I'm not intending to prove that all Poles were helping Jews during the german occupation, there were traitors of course - their terason was motivated either by hate, money or fear. But all also it is to be remembered that AK courts sentenced such people to death, and have them executed.

Here it means that a child is like his parents since blood is not water...
So in our case his granddaughter is special like him (brave etc...)- only few woman get to finish this course and become a fighter pilot in the IAF.

[Chris O`Crooh]

To all: Poles, Jews, and other nations.

We all have one, common, foe: IGNORANCE.

Every time someone tries to slander (defame) any nation or person, we have to ask simple question: cui bono? Who would have a profit of the flame - or real - war?

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

So allied bombardments of german territory, taking out german oil sources, engaging big part of german army, slowering developmnet of nuclear wepons is nothing? Stalin alone could fart and die nothing more...

I'm not saying that Allied help was nothing.
But- Stalin could win even without it, because:
1. Evacuation of industry behind Ural
2. bigger military production (tanks, guns, etc.)
3. huge human reserves
4. German plans included occupation of only european part of USSR.

And Western front was less important than eastern- Germans kept only about 50 devisions there (approx. 200 in Russia). Allies landed in 1944- when Red Army was occupying a half of Polish territory and nothing could stop them on their way to Berlin.

About German oil reserves- Romanian resources weren't very big, lack of oil is the reason of 1943 offensive in southern Russia.

Bombardments were biggest help to the USSR, but in 1944-45 they become only a propaganda move. After 1942-43 when losses were big, Germans started to build underground facilities, like EMW in Harz Mountains.

[Herrmannek]

So allied bombardments of german territory, taking out german oil sources, engaging big part of german army, slowering developmnet of nuclear wepons is nothing? Stalin alone could fart and die nothing more...

I'm not saying that Allied help was nothing.
But- Stalin could win even without it, because:
1. Evacuation of industry behind Ural
2. bigger military production (tanks, guns, etc.)
3. huge human reserves
4. German plans included occupation of only european part of USSR.

And Western front was less important than eastern- Germans kept only about 50 devisions there (approx. 200 in Russia). Allies landed in 1944- when Red Army was occupying a half of Polish territory and nothing could stop them on their way to Berlin.

About German oil reserves- Romanian resources weren't very big, lack of oil is the reason of 1943 offensive in southern Russia.

Bombardments were biggest help to the USSR, but in 1944-45 they become only a propaganda move. After 1942-43 when losses were big, Germans started to build underground facilities, like EMW in Harz Mountains.

I'll give you sufficient argument against your theory... If Stalin could defeat Hitler without allies he would did that, to not share european cake with them...

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

I'll give you sufficient argument against your theory... If Stalin could defeat Hitler without allies he would did that, to not share european cake with them...

Yes, but Germans attacked both western & eastern countries.
They started cooperation because "enemy of my enemy is my friend".

Stalin would defend his dictatorship and USSR to the last man. And I can't imagine German tanks rolling into Chelyabinsk or Novosibirsk.

[Herrmannek]

I'll give you sufficient argument against your theory... If Stalin could defeat Hitler without allies he would did that, to not share european cake with them...

Yes, but Germans attacked both western & eastern countries.
They started cooperation because "enemy of my enemy is my friend".

Stalin would defend his dictatorship and USSR to the last man. And I can't imagine German tanks rolling into Chelyabinsk or Novosibirsk.

Few german H-bombs here and there would end the case quickly...You must know that Germans were very close to making working ones, so one year more or two, esspecialy germany terrritory wouldn't be scrached by allies, at least 25% gain in human resources, tanks, fuel, planes from not existing western(Edit was: german ) front...Main russian citys conquered, best farm land taken from Russia, Black sea oil sources conquered...Yes Stalin could defeat Germans without Allies.... :)

[Groove]

I agree on almost all with GazB excpet that Stalin could defeat Germany "alone".

Hitler would have conquered Moscow faster than you think. But his own dumbness prevented it as he wanted to take London and Moscow simultanously. The Westfront Campaign gave the russian the needed time to take their industry behind Ural.

Im asking myself how it would be if Hitler would have long-range Bombers. But this dumbass - luckily - had none really good.

About the German A-Bomb. The US Army went first to the German Research Facilities and THEN they attacked Berlin. They wanted to be the first before the russians. They took everything away they could from this huge underearth facilities. The Documents about this "mission" are Top Secret for ever as i saw in a Tv Coverage about this area of war.

Just imagine if it would get through that the germans were just some steps before the nuke and not the great american scientist ( it was that way i think).

Greetings

Groove

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Few german H-bombs here and there would end the case quickly...You must know that Germans were very close to making working ones, so one year more or two, esspecialy germany terrritory wouldn't be scrached by allies, at least 25% gain in human resources, tanks, fuel, planes from not existing western(Edit was: german ) front...Main russian citys conquered, best farm land taken from Russia, Black sea oil sources conquered...


European part of USSR leveled to the ground. But...
Military factories working in Siberian forests, beyond the range of German bombers...



Yes Stalin could defeat Germans without Allies.... :)
That's what I'm trying to tell ya :lol:

There are too many 'ifs' 'woulds' etc. in thic topic. We don't know what Hitler & Stalin could do in such war. It's only (sorry for Polish) gdybanie i domysly.

So, my suggestion is EoT.

[Herrmannek]

Few german H-bombs here and there would end the case quickly...You must know that Germans were very close to making working ones, so one year more or two, esspecialy germany terrritory wouldn't be scrached by allies, at least 25% gain in human resources, tanks, fuel, planes from not existing western(Edit was: german ) front...Main russian citys conquered, best farm land taken from Russia, Black sea oil sources conquered...


European part of USSR leveled to the ground. But...
Military factories working in Siberian forests, beyond the range of German bombers...



Yes Stalin could defeat Germans without Allies.... :)
That's what I'm trying to tell ya :lol:

There are too many 'ifs' 'woulds' etc. in thic topic. We don't know what Hitler & Stalin could do in such war. It's only (sorry for Polish) gdybanie i domysly.

So, my suggestion is EoT.
Yup :)

[Marmot1]

Few german H-bombs here and there would end the case quickly...You must know that Germans were very close to making working ones, so one year more or two, esspecialy germany terrritory wouldn't be scrached by allies, at least 25% gain in human resources, tanks, fuel, planes from not existing western(Edit was: german ) front...Main russian citys conquered, best farm land taken from Russia, Black sea oil sources conquered...


European part of USSR leveled to the ground. But...
Military factories working in Siberian forests, beyond the range of German bombers...



Yes Stalin could defeat Germans without Allies.... :)
That's what I'm trying to tell ya :lol:

There are too many 'ifs' 'woulds' etc. in thic topic. We don't know what Hitler & Stalin could do in such war. It's only (sorry for Polish) gdybanie i domysly.

So, my suggestion is EoT.

Yeah siberia forest... and power from where??? waterplant??? rofl you can transfer industry but it takes time a lot of time... as to german bombers... they had F-W 200? or 2000 (dont remember exact signature) that was able to fly crosatlantic and return but they had only few of them but enought to drop a bomb... and remember most of russia population was in european part of country so after that syberia was with little importance at least for couple of years.

And i liked most that part..


Just imagine if it would get through that the germans were just some steps before the nuke and not the great american scientist ( it was that way i think).

Greetings

Groove

american??? most of top scientist were of jewish descent mainly german jews not, american born ppl, some of them even had problems with english... Openhaimer , Fermi , Rabi von Neuman not to mention Einstein

[Sergei]

The russians were already within artillery range to help polish soldiers. But Stalin this MF decided to let the germans slaughter the polish uprising because he didnt wanted any resistance against his regime after liberating Poland.

That is one of the cases why poles dont "like" russians...

Groove

I love those stupid half-assed lame comments. :bash: There are some 600000 soviet soldiers (not Russian, but as well Ukrainian, Belorussian, Kazah, Turkmen, Georgian, Armenian, Azerbaijiani, Estonian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Uzbek, Kyrgiz and many many bloody more nationalities) lie buried in polish lands and they gave up the most precious what a man can give for the liberation of Poland. And they fought their way through together with 1st and 2nd Polish people armies who also sacrificed a lot of their men for the liberation of Poland.
Now, I really don't care if the Poles "like" or don't "like" the soviets, but at least they could spare some of the monuments erected to commemorate the fallen and I've seen quite a few movies what those idiots did to the monuments where the soldiers rest in peace.
Anyway you look at it, the Russians are bad. Liberated Poland - bad, because Poland fell in the hands of communists, didn't help Warsaw uprising - again bad. Some consistency is needed here.

History tip: When the soviet forces approached the suburbs of Warsaw they were deadly exhausted and tired and the units were up to only 30% of operational strength since operation Bagration begun. Despite numerous pleas by soviet command to delay the uprising until Soviet Army gained its strength against, the Poles didn't listen, or they listened more to their exiled government (aka armchair warriors), and decided to do it their way, so they reaped the consequences, since German army was never a pushover.

Looks like liberation of Poland wasn't worth the life of a single soviet soldier since I find such comments by younger generation "off-springs" here. At least respect the dead who gave it all!

[Groove]

@ Sergei:

Stalin were NOT the poor Conscript fighting against the Germans. I respect the blood russian lost in the ww2 - you can believe me!

====


american??? most of top scientist were of jewish descent mainly german jews not, american born ppl, some of them even had problems with english... Openhaimer , Fermi , Rabi von Neuman not to mention Einstein

Sorry for my incorrectness. So imagine if jewes living and working in USA on the manhattan project hadnt invented the bomb from the scratch. I would also like to mention that there were not only jews working on the bomb but ppl from many countries and origins. I hope this is correctly better. Could anyone check american historybooks for the correctness of the nuke-builders too ? ... :|

===========

Taken from http://www.uboat.net/technical/fw200.htm :

Specifications
Focke-Wulf Fw 200C-3/U4

Four 1200hp BMW-Bramo 323R-2 Fafnir nine-cylinder radial engines

Wing span 32.84m, length 23.46m, height 6.30m, wing area 118.0m2.

Empty weight 12950kg, max take-off weight 22700kg.

Max. speed 360km/h at 4800m, 306km/h at sea level.

Range 3556km with standard fuel, 4440km with overload fuel.

Service ceiling 5800m.

Armament: Forward dorsal Fw 19 turret with a 7.9mm MG 15 machinegun, 13mm MG 131 machinegun in aft dorsal position, two MG 131 guns in beam positions, one 20mm MG 151/20 cannon in front of the ventral gondola, and one MG 15 in the aft section of the gondola.

Maximum bomb load 2100kg: two 500kg, two 250kg and two 50kg bombs.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Yeah siberia forest... and power from where??? waterplant??? rofl you can transfer industry but it takes time a lot of time...


Most of Soviet industry was transferred to Eastern USSR (mainly Chelyabinsk, Novosibirsk etc.) by the end of 1941. It took 6 months, to evacuate 3 million people and construct new factories in Sibiera. And industry worked there to the end of war, with good efficency.



as to german bombers... they had F-W 200? or 2000 (dont remember exact signature) that was able to fly crosatlantic and return but they had only few of them but enought to drop a bomb... and remember most of russia population was in european part of country so after that syberia was with little importance at least for couple of years.


FW200. But it was re-builded passenger plane, so it was really easy target for AAA and fighters...

[REMOV]

Looks like liberation of Poland wasn't worth the life of a single soviet soldier since I find such comments by younger generation "off-springs" here. At least respect the dead who gave it all!You know, Russia started to "liberate" Poland in 1939 when with Germans occupies a half of the country (remember Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact - the 17th September 1939 is still in Poles memory as an act of betrayal - Russia allied with III Reich, when we fought hard battles with enemy and gave Poland blow it the back).

Then "liberate" to the death several thousands Polish officers (Katyn, Mjednoye) in 1940 and took away (Kazakhstan, Siberia) several thousands Polish people.

Then Soviet Union liberated the Poland in 1944 and 1945, but you know if only Polish people had a choice 99% of them prefer to be liberated but our own Polish Army (at the West) and Western Allies.

And then, when we were liberated again by mighty Russian Army, Poland become another Soviet Union satellite, subordinate country over 44 years. Nice "liberation", eh..?

And yes, I respect the dead soldiers, and still authorities of my home town put lights at Russian Military Cementary at All Saints' Day, sometimes I also do it. But please, don't try to convince me to respect Russian imperial politics with relation to Poland.

[Russian Texan]

What is the reason for the Ukranians disliking Polish and vise versa?
From what I read Ukranians, who collaborated with Germans, were especially cruel to Polish and Jews.

[citizen-k]

@ Sergei:

Stalin were NOT the poor Conscript fighting against the Germans. I respect the blood russian lost in the ww2 - you can believe me!

====


american??? most of top scientist were of jewish descent mainly german jews not, american born ppl, some of them even had problems with english... Openhaimer , Fermi , Rabi von Neuman not to mention Einstein

Sorry for my incorrectness. So imagine if jewes living and working in USA on the manhattan project hadnt invented the bomb from the scratch. I would also like to mention that there were not only jews working on the bomb but ppl from many countries and origins. I hope this is correctly better. Could anyone check american historybooks for the correctness of the nuke-builders too ? ... :|

===========

Taken from http://www.uboat.net/technical/fw200.htm :

Specifications
Focke-Wulf Fw 200C-3/U4

Four 1200hp BMW-Bramo 323R-2 Fafnir nine-cylinder radial engines

Wing span 32.84m, length 23.46m, height 6.30m, wing area 118.0m2.

Empty weight 12950kg, max take-off weight 22700kg.

Max. speed 360km/h at 4800m, 306km/h at sea level.

Range 3556km with standard fuel, 4440km with overload fuel.

Service ceiling 5800m.

Armament: Forward dorsal Fw 19 turret with a 7.9mm MG 15 machinegun, 13mm MG 131 machinegun in aft dorsal position, two MG 131 guns in beam positions, one 20mm MG 151/20 cannon in front of the ventral gondola, and one MG 15 in the aft section of the gondola.

Maximum bomb load 2100kg: two 500kg, two 250kg and two 50kg bombs.

http://www.atomicmuseum.com/tour/mp6.cfm

[Piotrek]

I've seen quite a few movies what those idiots did to the monuments where the soldiers rest in peace.

Well, I think that we all can agree that the human stupidity dont know borders - you can find idiots all over the world - even in Poland.


Despite numerous pleas by soviet command to delay the uprising until Soviet Army gained its strength against, the Poles didn't listen, or they listened more to their exiled government (aka armchair warriors), and decided to do it their way, so they reaped the consequences, since German army was never a pushover.

I am afraid that you are wrong - soviet radio was calling to start the uprising because of advances of Red Army.
Stalin didnt, even, allow the allied airplanes with supplys for Uprising to land on soviet teritory.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

What is the reason for the Ukranians disliking Polish and vise versa?
From what I read Ukranians, who collaborated with Germans, were especially cruel to Polish and Jews.

We've got conflicts with Ukraine since XVII century (Chmielnicki uprising) :)
Chmielnicki was Polish hetman (general) with Ukrainian origin. He raised against Polish king and wanted to create an independent Ukrainian state (Poland was occupying Ukraine at the time). Both forces were very cruel (public executions, genocides etc). He was defeated, Ukraine remained a part of Poland.
Next- the battle of Lviv, 1919
The objective of this conflict was occupation of west Ukraine (Wolyn), with city of Lviv. Both Poles and Ukrainians wanted to join this territory to their states.
Poland won this conflict, Wolyn was annexed by Poland, and eastern Ukraine was conquered by Red Army.

Ukrainians who lived in Wolyn (Western Ukraine) were discriminated by pre-war Polish Government, and when Germans came, they had their revenge. Ukrainians serving in SS units were worst and most cruel butchers in Poland, especially units used in crushing of Warsaw Uprising.
In 1943 Ukrainians from UPA nationalist militia killed few thousands civilian Poles who lived in Wolyn.
UPA was a major problem both for post-war Polish Government, and Soviet administration. Poland's border was moved west, but UPA expanded their territiry. They used partisan (spelling?) tactics, placing mines and attacking Polish administration. UPA was finally crushed in 1947 by Polish Interior Security Corps and Soviet NKVD.

That's it. huh
:)

[juhae]

You must know that Germans were very close to making working ones
Yet far behind the US. Third Reich didn't express any really significant intrest towards the atom bomb (in fact, more or less whole nuclear research was viewed with suspicion), which more or less bogged down the research.

Another important detail worth mentioning is the "wrong turn" German researches took in the very early phase of their research, which made them believe they needed vast amounts of heavy water to complete the bomb.

Even if they would have managed to manufacture an atom bomb or two, they wouldn't have a lot of use for it, except for desperate "scorched earth" tactics, as Luftwaffe didn't have any real strategic bombers (Remember He-177 project? Bogged down by the insistance of several bigwigs, who wanted every bomber to have divebombing capability), and the rocket research was still far too much in its infancy.

[Herrmannek]

You must know that Germans were very close to making working ones
Yet far behind the US. Third Reich didn't express any really significant intrest towards the atom bomb (in fact, more or less whole nuclear research was viewed with suspicion), which more or less bogged down the research.

Another important detail worth mentioning is the "wrong turn" German researches took in the very early phase of their research, which made them believe they needed vast amounts of heavy water to complete the bomb.

Even if they would have managed to manufacture an atom bomb or two, they wouldn't have a lot of use for it, except for desperate "scorched earth" tactics, as Luftwaffe didn't have any real strategic bombers (Remember He-177 project? Bogged down by the insistance of several bigwigs, who wanted every bomber to have divebombing capability), and the rocket research was still far too much in its infancy.
AFAIK they didn't made working ones "on time" because they wanted to build H-bomb from begining with is harder to build than A-bomb(thatz why they needed so much heavy water). They had all knowledge and materials..I'm sure that if germany had some "peace" and little more time we would speak "Rantanplanish" now..

And about delivering medium...I'm sure that Germans would use a rocket not a plane...

[perdurabo]

What is the reason for the Ukranians disliking Polish and vise versa?
From what I read Ukranians, who collaborated with Germans, were especially cruel to Polish and Jews.

We've got conflicts with Ukraine since XVII century (Chmielnicki uprising) :)
Chmielnicki was Polish hetman (general) with Ukrainian origin. He raised against Polish king and wanted to create an independent Ukrainian state (Poland was occupying Ukraine at the time). Both forces were very cruel (public executions, genocides etc). He was defeated, Ukraine remained a part of Poland.
:)

nono you are wrong he didnt want ukraine as independent state!:) he and other cossacs in upraisings(there where few of them) wanted only equal status, because ukrainian nobleman (eg. książe Jaremi Wiśniowiecki was ukrainian...) wanted to do peasants from cossacs and they wanted to be just cossacs and serve King of Republic of Two Nations (Polish and Litvian union). Then they coled Moscow for help and ukraine where divided... When Republic fall cossacs started new upraising aginst Tsar but he crushed them much more blodly than our kings.
BTW Litvians dislike Poland too because in 1919-1920 we took their capitol Wilno and their lands (well for us that where our ladns:))

[juhae]

AFAIK they didn't made working ones "on time" because they wanted to build H-bomb from begining with is harder to build than A-bomb(thatz why they needed so much heavy water).
If you have any evidence to back this up, do share.

Germany sought heavy water after their experiments with graphite failed due unpure resources (which in turn made the scientists to write off the possibility of using graphite at all.)


They had all knowledge and materials..I'm sure that if germany had some "peace" and little more time
Setting conditions like this is almost as "fun" as inviting the Alien space-bats to rescue the Third Reich. I don't exactly see how Germany could have more time.


And about delivering medium...I'm sure that Germans would use a rocket not a plane...
A-9/A-10 project was far from being even ready for testing, as was Sänger's rocket. Both would require years of research and study before being ready for producing, years which the Germany couldn't afford.

Horten's Ho XVIII was a beautiful flying wing design, which possibly could have succeeded in delivering the atomic package to New York and back, but again - time is the question.

(edit: Some moderator could possibly split this to the history-forum, as this discussion hardly fits to "strictly photos and video" and even less under the title of "Warsaw uprising")

[Herrmannek]

AFAIK they didn't made working ones "on time" because they wanted to build H-bomb from begining with is harder to build than A-bomb(thatz why they needed so much heavy water).
If you have any evidence to back this up, do share.

Germany sought heavy water after their experiments with graphite failed due unpure resources (which in turn made the scientists to write off the possibility of using graphite at all.)


They had all knowledge and materials..I'm sure that if germany had some "peace" and little more time
Setting conditions like this is almost as "fun" as inviting the Alien space-bats to rescue the Third Reich. I don't exactly see how Germany could have more time.


And about delivering medium...I'm sure that Germans would use a rocket not a plane...
A-9/A-10 project was far from being even ready for testing, as was Sänger's rocket. Both would require years of research and study before being ready for producing, years which the Germany couldn't afford.

Horten's Ho XVIII was a beautiful flying wing design, which possibly could have succeeded in delivering the atomic package to New York and back, but again - time is the question.

(edit: Some moderator could possibly split this to the history-forum, as this discussion hardly fits to "strictly photos and video" and even less under the title of "Warsaw uprising")

We are making here little study on "what would happen if", lets say it is 1941, Hitler started his ofensive against Russians,but USA didn't joined war from unknow reasons(ie: Japs fleet sunk in hurricane :) ). Question is: With side is worth beting your money :).
Thats why I was saying about some peace and additional time. In my opinion Soviet Union couldn't reach german territory alone without extensive help of allies and war would last much longer, maybe long enough to build A bomb...

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

nono you are wrong he didnt want ukraine as independent state!:) he and other cossacs in upraisings(there where few of them) wanted only equal status, because ukrainian nobleman (eg. ksi??e Jaremi Wi?niowiecki was ukrainian...) wanted to do peasants from cossacs and they wanted to be just cossacs and serve King of Republic of Two Nations (Polish and Litvian union). Then they coled Moscow for help and ukraine where divided... When Republic fall cossacs started new upraising aginst Tsar but he crushed them much more blodly than our kings.
BTW Litvians dislike Poland too because in 1919-1920 we took their capitol Wilno and their lands (well for us that where our ladns:))

My mistake :cantbeli:

[Marmot1]

Problem with ukrainians and Lvow was that in cities like Lvow mayority was polish but rural areas were mostly with ukrainian mayority same with lithuania and Vilno mayority was polish in cities but most of ppl in villages were lithuanians, since for 500 years of polish-lithuanian union (probably longest union betwen states in history) many poles moved to Vilno and many lithuanians were polonized (by cultural influence) so after 500 years they felt more like poles than lithuanians...I had a profesor at my university who was lithuanian (from noble family) but in 1918 they decided to stay in poland since they felt more connected with poland than with lithuania...

[mack pl]

Sregei- what Soviet Union could do in 1944/45 ? i dont think they could stop in polish-soviet border, and stop fight with germans. Red Army must go to Berlin, so you could go only via Poland. I agree, yours soldiers fight in ours state against our enemy-Germany, but why you stay here 50 years? ;) maybe for you libareted some country means stay there half century ;) Maybe my polish friends try translate you some polish sentence-Wszedzie dobrze gdzie was nie ma :lol:

[Herrmannek]

Problem with ukrainians and Lvow was that in cities like Lvow mayority was polish but rural areas were mostly with ukrainian mayority same with lithuania and Vilno mayority was polish in cities but most of ppl in villages were lithuanians, since for 500 years of polish-lithuanian union (probably longest union betwen states in history) many poles moved to Vilno and many lithuanians were polonized (by cultural influence) so after 500 years they felt more like poles than lithuanians...I had a profesor at my university who was lithuanian (from noble family) but in 1918 they decided to stay in poland since they felt more connected with poland than with lithuania...

Yup..Noble or well prospering Lithuanians weren't thinkig about Lithuania as separate country..They were so assimiliated that Lithuania and Poland were synonims to many of them...

[Groove]

UPA was finally crushed in 1947 by Polish Interior Security Corps and Soviet NKVD.


Im originally from south-east Poland and there were ukrainian villages about ~ 20 km south of "my" village. They were all burned down and the Ukrainians killed or they had to flee to Ukraine.

The UPA was very brutal - they killed whole polish families and stuck the heads on the fences - man, woman and childrens. So they were very hated in our region. The Poles revanged on them in the last war year and after war... I could get more precise informations if any1 is interested.

Greetings

Groove

[juhae]

We are making here little study on "what would happen if", lets say it is 1941, Hitler started his ofensive against Russians,but USA didn't joined war from unknow reasons(ie: Japs fleet sunk in hurricane :) ). Question is: With side is worth beting your money :).

So far I haven't seen very comprehensive explanations why would Russia not beat Germany. Eastern front was a meatgrinder, and you need too many '"if's" to make it something happen and still sound like the whole thing still is realisic.


Thats why I was saying about some peace and additional time. In my opinion Soviet Union couldn't reach german territory alone without extensive help of allies and war would last much longer, maybe long enough to build A bomb...

With or without the US intervention, the German economy would still be in horrible shape (remember, the whole war was a gamble on debt?), their industry wouldn't adapt to war-time production until around 1944, the quality of general soldiers went downhill month by month, etc. There's just too much to change, if you really want a scenario where SU and Germany can fight together alone. [/i]

[perdurabo]

UPA was finally crushed in 1947 by Polish Interior Security Corps and Soviet NKVD.


Im originally from south-east Poland and there were ukrainian villages about ~ 20 km south of "my" village. They were all burned down and the Ukrainians killed or they had to flee to Ukraine.

The UPA was very brutal - they killed whole polish families and stuck the heads on the fences - man, woman and childrens. So they were very hated in our region. The Poles revanged on them in the last war year and after war... I could get more precise informations if any1 is interested.

Greetings

Groove Yes my grandma comes from Lvov she remembers that ukrainians where cutting/ripping apart Poles with saw while they where still alive!


Wszedzie dobrze gdzie was nie ma
Everywhere is good when there is no russians around...

[Sergei]

You know, Russia started to "liberate" Poland in 1939 when with Germans occupies a half of the country (remember Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact - the 17th September 1939 is still in Poles memory as an act of betrayal - Russia allied with III Reich, when we fought hard battles with enemy and gave Poland blow it the back).
Remember, it is not Russia, but Soviet Union, which consisted of many nationalities, Stalin was a Georgian, not Russian. The situation of 1939 has yet to be studied carefully by all the historians of today without bias but all I can say is that nobody is clean. Everybody in Europe was thinking in terms of conquest and predatory instincts were the chief driving force among most european politicians. Think about Poland grabbing part of Czechoslovakia. Shall Czechs and Slovaks feel betrayed by Poles, too?
On the other hand, thanks to Stalin, Ukraine has become one nation again, where west Ukrainians could link with east Ukrainians for the first time in a united state, which it stays proud today.



Then "liberate" to the death several thousands Polish officers (Katyn, Mjednoye) in 1940 and took away (Kazakhstan, Siberia) several thousands Polish people.
That was just a payback for what Polish soldiers did to Soviet Union in Russian civil war. That was an internal Russian conflict, somehow over 14 states thought it worthwhile to get into action and grab a piece of the pie too. But they underestimated the strength of the Red Army which would kick them all out along with white Russians. And there were still soldiers in the RKKA who remembered what Polish soldiers did to Red Army POW, cutting their bellies and putting a cat in there and watching who will die first the cat or the soldier. All this is written in memories of different field commanders of RKKA. Stalin haven't forgot either that atrocity and since he was a mean bastard he would revenge in 1939.



Then Soviet Union liberated the Poland in 1944 and 1945, but you know if only Polish people had a choice 99% of them prefer to be liberated but our own Polish Army (at the West) and Western Allies.
The Western Allies weren't in any hurry to liberate Poland or they would invade Normandy in 1942 instead of 1944 when Soviet Army was half-way through Poland. And "if" is a bad preposition if you are talking about history.



And then, when we were liberated again by mighty Russian Army, Poland become another Soviet Union satellite, subordinate country over 44 years. Nice "liberation", eh..?
What did you expect? A powerful enemy goes to devastate my country through the neighboring territory and after I win a bloody battle which devastates my economy and kills a lot of my people I damn make sure that the neighboring country wouldn't be a walkover for the enemy again.



And yes, I respect the dead soldiers, and still authorities of my home town put lights at Russian Military Cementary at All Saints' Day, sometimes I also do it.
This is very noble deed for the authorities in your home town and for you. Thank you very much. Respect.



But please, don't try to convince me to respect Russian imperial politics with relation to Poland.
Never asked you to respect any imperial politics, whether American, Russian or whatever. I know it sucks to be a subjagated part of an empire. You've been free for some time now to vent off your anger at something else haven't you?

[perdurabo]

Think about Poland grabbing part of Czechoslovakia. Shall Czechs and Slovaks feel betrayed by Poles, too?

Well my grandpa comes from Cieszyn (that part we talk about) You know it was Polish handed to Poles by Wersal threaty but Czechs took it when Poland was fighting with SU...



On the other hand, thanks to Stalin, Ukraine has become one nation again, where west Ukrainians could link with east Ukrainians for the first time in a united state, which it stays proud today.[/guote]

hmm i allways thoguht that Ukraine now is ukrainians/Mongols,Tatars/Russians and meany other mixed allways arguing :) before 90' afair there was ukraine in 1919 but splited beatwin Poland and SU and before that there was no country and nationality caled ukraine btw ukraine comes from kraine witch means end of land...

[quote]
That was just a payback for what Polish soldiers did to Soviet Union in Russian civil war. That was an internal Russian conflict, somehow over 14 states thought it worthwhile to get into action and grab a piece of the pie too. But they underestimated the strength of the Red Army which would kick them all out along with white Russians. And there were still soldiers in the RKKA who remembered what Polish soldiers did to Red Army POW, cutting their bellies and putting a cat in there and watching who will die first the cat or the soldier. All this is written in memories of different field commanders of RKKA. Stalin haven't forgot either that atrocity and since he was a mean bastard he would revenge in 1939.

payback!?! it wasen't one soldier who remembered 1920 kiled few polish POWs but ordered clenasing of Polish nation (officers, policemens, educated ppl, even railway workers...) shoot in back of their heads with german weapon...

[Sergei]

hmm i allways thoguht that Ukraine now is ukrainians/Mongols,Tatars/Russians and meany other mixed allways arguing :) before 90' afair there was ukraine in 1919 but splited beatwin Poland and SU and before that there was no country and nationality caled ukraine btw ukraine comes from kraine witch means end of land...



You are wrong, uber-race Polish guy, even if Ukrainians and Russians did mix with Tatars and Mongols, it is not felt in the gene pool, and even if it does, so what? Our women are as beautiful as ever. Hack, we are as slavic, as one can think off.
There was no country like Ukraine only in Polish history books. And "Krai" actually means the end of land, also it is not specified which land. :D

[Marmot1]

Remember, it is not Russia, but Soviet Union, which consisted of many nationalities, Stalin was a Georgian, not Russian. The situation of 1939 has yet to be studied carefully by all the historians of today without bias but all I can say is that nobody is clean. Everybody in Europe was thinking in terms of conquest and predatory instincts were the chief driving force among most european politicians. Think about Poland grabbing part of Czechoslovakia. Shall Czechs and Slovaks feel betrayed by Poles, too?
Well Cieszyn area was part of the poland in 1918 and mayority was polish with czech minority in 1919 when poland had a war with soviet union czechoslavakian army captured this area and poland did nothing since we had more serious problem than 30sq km and we don't wanted to fight on two fronts but in 1938 when there was occasion to retake it we took it but it was only ca30sq km area with polish majority so basicaly it was returning to 1919 border we did not taken anything more and it was taken without 1 shoot polish troops just marched in the city an set up new border



On the other hand, thanks to Stalin, Ukraine has become one nation again, where west Ukrainians could link with east Ukrainians for the first time in a united state, which it stays proud today.

Yeah they become nation which then was starved to dead in 30's by Stalin(remember great starvation in ukraine how is your russian estimate about number of dead ukrainians?) and it is dificult to say about united state since they were part of soviet union not ukrainian state.



That was just a payback for what Polish soldiers did to Soviet Union in Russian civil war. That was an internal Russian conflict, somehow over 14 states thought it worthwhile to get into action and grab a piece of the pie too. But they underestimated the strength of the Red Army which would kick them all out along with white Russians. And there were still soldiers in the RKKA who remembered what Polish soldiers did to Red Army POW, cutting their bellies and putting a cat in there and watching who will die first the cat or the soldier. All this is written in memories of different field commanders of RKKA. Stalin haven't forgot either that atrocity and since he was a mean bastard he would revenge in 1939.

So maybe you explain to me and others on this forum what we did to soviets during civil war??? Well maybe they RA kicked british, french and others from the archangilsk region and from crimea but actualy we kicked RA ass in central front and we won (Riga treaty 1921) As to the POWs field commanders of RKKA couldn't write anything else since they will end up 3ft under the ground. Yes many soviet soldiers died in POW camps in poland but this was due to tyfus(sp?) and cholera(sp?) epidemy that was spreading among them maybe there were some cases of mistreating them but it was not a general practice, I'v read a memories of soviet oficer who was in polish POW camp near warsaw, he wrote that after the case fire they were allowed to leave camp during day without guard and only had to return to the camp for a night, he even took job in the drugstore during that time then after Riga treaty they were alloved to return home but nobody forced them so many soldiers who were ukrainians belorusians etc decided to stay in poland many of them moved west to france USA etc it's why this officer was able to write his memories - he was in USA. Stalin couldn't forget not atrocities but that he was Political Oficer attached to Budionny army in south poland in 1920 and in fact he was responsible for dissaster of soviet army (he refused to help Tuchaczevsky's army when they were flanked) check in your rusian encyklopedy or other books about stalin what he was doing in years 1919-21 usualy there is information that he was on the front but nothing more since this was a shame to him and he tried to hide it.Most of the officers killed in Katyn, Miednoje, Charkov were veterans of polish- soviet war and it was in some way personal revange.



The Western Allies weren't in any hurry to liberate Poland or they would invade Normandy in 1942 instead of 1944 when Soviet Army was half-way through Poland. And "if" is a bad preposition if you are talking about history.


yeah I dont like "if" when we talk about history too



What did you expect? A powerful enemy goes to devastate my country through the neighboring territory and after I win a bloody battle which devastates my economy and kills a lot of my people I damn make sure that the neighboring country wouldn't be a walkover for the enemy again.

So it is your justification for ocupation of poland for over 40y? there are other means that can be used to be sure that you are safe instead. How about cooperation instead of occupation???



This is very noble deed for the authorities in your home town and for you. Thank you very much. Respect.

I too respect fallen soldiers and they cementaries and I'm pissed of on half-brains who devastate them. But I would ask you in what condition are polish cementaries in the east in the borders of former soviet union??? for many years they were devastated not only by ordinary ppl but also by goverment like military cementary in Lvov where army tanks were send to smash cementary croses and graves with tracks in 60's or 70's and now some retards in poland are trying to payback for that by devastating soviet cementaries. I don't think it's the proper way but some ppl think so.



[quote="REMOV]
But please, don't try to convince me to respect Russian imperial politics with relation to Poland.
Never asked you to respect any imperial politics, whether American, Russian or whatever. I know it sucks to be a subjagated part of an empire. You've been free for some time now to vent off your anger at something else haven't you?[/quote:9a9f0aeb89]
Yes we are free naw but it need a time to cool down, as long as there are ppl who remember personally what soviet union did to poland and them it would be hard to do this...

[Marmot1]

hmm some **** happened to my post and i cannot repair it sorry even when I tried to depost it same **** is displayed.

[perdurabo]

hmm i allways thoguht that Ukraine now is ukrainians/Mongols,Tatars/Russians and meany other mixed allways arguing :) before 90' afair there was ukraine in 1919 but splited beatwin Poland and SU and before that there was no country and nationality caled ukraine btw ukraine comes from kraine witch means end of land...



You are wrong, uber-race Polish guy, even if Ukrainians and Russians did mix with Tatars and Mongols, it is not felt in the gene pool, and even if it does, so what? Our women are as beautiful as ever. Hack, we are as slavic, as one can think off.
There was no country like Ukraine only in Polish history books. And "Krai" actually means the end of land, also it is not specified which land. :DBTW Kraj in Polish means country:)
if you look in history books you will see that until XXcent there werent any ukrainian state i think it's good that now it is. But you should remember that before there was meany other nationality (Ormains, Jews, Tatars, Mongols, Turks, Cossacs(BTW at the bigining(X-XI Cent.) it wasnt nationality it was roaming horeds of thiefs, murders etc from all europe but in XVI cent they made one nation... and the name Cossac in Tatars means roaming band of thiefs) If you look now you will see the diffrence beatwin citizens of Lwów, Crime, and far east, even in politics you see that diffrence... maybe in next 100-150 years they will become great country (And i think it will be good for them)

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

BTW Kraj in Polish means country:)
if you look in history books you will see that until XXcent there werent any ukrainian state i think it's good that now it is. But you should remember that before there was meany other nationality (Ormains, Jews, Tatars, Mongols, Turks, Cossacs(BTW at the bigining(X-XI Cent.) it wasnt nationality it was roaming horeds of thiefs, murders etc from all europe but in XVI cent they made one nation... and the name Cossac in Tatars means roaming band of thiefs) If you look now you will see the diffrence beatwin citizens of Lwów, Crime, and far east, even in politics you see that diffrence... maybe in next 100-150 years they will become great country (And i think it will be good for them)

What about Rus Kijowska (sp?) in X th century ?

[Sergei]

hmm i allways thoguht that Ukraine now is ukrainians/Mongols,Tatars/Russians and meany other mixed allways arguing :) before 90' afair there was ukraine in 1919 but splited beatwin Poland and SU and before that there was no country and nationality caled ukraine btw ukraine comes from kraine witch means end of land...



You are wrong, uber-race Polish guy, even if Ukrainians and Russians did mix with Tatars and Mongols, it is not felt in the gene pool, and even if it does, so what? Our women are as beautiful as ever. Hack, we are as slavic, as one can think off.
There was no country like Ukraine only in Polish history books. And "Krai" actually means the end of land, also it is not specified which land. :DBTW Kraj in Polish means country:)
if you look in history books you will see that until XXcent there werent any ukrainian state i think it's good that now it is. But you should remember that before there was meany other nationality (Ormains, Jews, Tatars, Mongols, Turks, Cossacs(BTW at the bigining(X-XI Cent.) it wasnt nationality it was roaming horeds of thiefs, murders etc from all europe but in XVI cent they made one nation... and the name Cossac in Tatars means roaming band of thiefs) If you look now you will see the diffrence beatwin citizens of Lwów, Crime, and far east, even in politics you see that diffrence... maybe in next 100-150 years they will become great country (And i think it will be good for them)

Check the history books again, please. :D
There was a state called Kievska Rus formed long before any known mention of anything that resembles Polish state were ever mentioned (5th century AD).
About "roaming hordes of thiefs" LOL, no comments. Just open your history books and read something about servants and serfdom in Kiev Rus and later when it was subjugated by Golden Horde of Mongols and Tatars. Cossacks were basically peasants running from serfdom and creating their own brotherhood and self rule. But even that with time decayed and they started to have royalty too (called "starshina"), which was a step back from cossack tradition of free people.
What about the difference between citizens, I don't get it? What difference? They drink less vodka and f''''k less women?

[tony6]

That was just a payback for what Polish soldiers did to Soviet Union in Russian civil war. That was an internal Russian conflict, somehow over 14 states thought it worthwhile to get into action and grab a piece of the pie too. But they underestimated the strength of the Red Army which would kick them all out along with white Russians. And there were still soldiers in the RKKA who remembered what Polish soldiers did to Red Army POW, cutting their bellies and putting a cat in there and watching who will die first the cat or the soldier. All this is written in memories of different field commanders of RKKA. Stalin haven't forgot either that atrocity and since he was a mean bastard he would revenge in 1939.
Yeah, yeah-Russian POWs-heard that crap many times. It's a common Russian excuse for murdering Polish officers. Even Russian historicians consider those numkbers (of Russian POWs killed) to be quite a nice bull****.