The Dutch, Afghanistan and the Dominoe Theory

[NewsMan]

The losers are the Afghan people...

Defence Minister Robert Hill confirmed that Australia might delay sending a planned 200-strong military reconstruction team to Afghanistan because of Dutch indecision about sending support troops to the region.

The Dutch cabinet has approved the deployment of 1400 troops, including Apache helicopters and F-16 fighter planes, but is leaving the final decision to parliament, where endorsement is no certainty.

http://www.themercury.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,17719118%255E401,00.html

[Laworkerbee]

Sounds reasonable on the part of the Aussies though, though I imagine Aussie engineers can handle themselves quite well. Lets not forget the slaughter inflicted upon German airborne troops in the battle for Crete in '41 by cooks, runners, and engineers of the 19th Australian Infantry Brigade

[Hemaworstje]

sure blame the dutch, there are 200.000 soldiers down there ,you don't really need 1200 of our guys/girls , from a logistical point of view it is absurd to gather military personnal and material from dozens of countries.
it is not domino , it is about one part of a province ,one part of afghanistan in which we think before deciding going into battle , the human aid and building of infrastructure in other parts of Afghanistan goes on as planned.
We hate to get shot in the nutz by some poppyfarmer with one goat who thinks Afghanistan is his country , right?

[LaoSexMachine]

sure blame the dutch, there are 200.000 soldiers down there ,you don't really need 1200 of our guys/girls , from a logistical point of view it is absurd to gather military personnal and material from dozens of countries.
it is not domino , it is about one part of a province ,one part of afghanistan in which we think before deciding going into battle , the human aid and building of infrastructure in other parts of Afghanistan goes on as planned.
We hate to get shot in the nutz by some poppyfarmer with one goat who thinks Afghanistan is his country , right?

200,000 in A-stan, not even close. If you don't want to get your men and women shot just leave NATO. France did and they are there helping

[sp2c]

200,000 in A-stan, not even close. If you don't want to get your men and women shot just leave NATO. France did and they are there helping
we ARE there helping, same area's as the french and no we're not leaving NATO regardless of any decision on this mission and you still can't force us

[Robbie]

200,000 in A-stan, not even close. If you don't want to get your men and women shot just leave NATO. France did and they are there helping

Right, 'cause NATO is all about getting shot!

I'm getting tired of this guy...

[Digital Marine]

Grrrrrr, why can't they make a damn decision.

[LaoSexMachine]

Right, 'cause NATO is all about getting shot!

I'm getting tired of this guy...

Then don't respond. Easy and Simple

I'm not calling yall cowards or something, but since your government and people are afraid to send them to A-stan because they might be killed. that's why i said that. Like some Dutch members hear said that A-stan is far from the Netherlands and serves no intrest for the country.

[sp2c]

no some of our members living in cia prisons claimed that the Netherlands could be forced to go to Afghanistan and that it serves our interests which simply isn't true

don't put words in the mouths of some Dutch members because that's childish and makes you look stupid

[LaoSexMachine]

no some of our members living in cia prisons claimed that the Netherlands could be forced to go to Afghanistan and that it serves our interests which simply isn't true

don't put words in the mouths of some Dutch members because that's childish and makes you look stupid




Originally Posted by Shar.
It's too many risk!!
Afghanistan is too dangerous..
68% of the dutch people think that we should not send soldiers to Afghanistan (including me!) - http://www.zibb.nl/nieuws/binnenland...sie=1&rss=true (http://www.zibb.nl/nieuws/binnenland/nieuwsbericht.asp?artnr=1089559&versie=1&rss=true) -
And D66 was against, so why saying that we should go ?
I'm hoping that the government is saying that the dutch don't have to go to Afghanistan.. Ofcourse you train for something like this.. But afghanistan is way to dangerous..

If the government will send some troops to afghanistan.. my bf has to go too.. he told me something about the whole thing, and he saw some article:



Uhm the article is dutch, but it says:
That we should not be so naive, if we do the same way as the US then maybe the Taliban will do something.
Uruzgan is extremely dangerous, we should'nt send troops to Afghanistan, if we do then we'd better bring some coffins

He has to go in january 2007, so Im really hoping the government says a big "no"!.....
........... :)



Originally Posted by sp2c
we have no obligation period, it's your war, you started it so you have to carry the burden

if you don't want to go into the technical details then that's fine by me but don't bring them up either. Afghanistan did not attack the US by your rhetoric NATO nations can also be forced to attack germany for releasing that terrorist that killed an American 20 years ago.

........:)


Originally Posted by Hemaworstje
main reason is that America should have cleared the area before we were to supposed to give Aid, that did not happen , now we are being asked to fight along , and that is in contradict with the general view of the Dutch that we should not be fighting other countries war's.
That wil not happen , the same reason why we and others left Iraq.

.............:)
I'm not putting words in anyones mouth. These are Dutch members in this forum, correct?

[sp2c]

were are these dutch members saying



Like some Dutch members hear said that A-stan is far from the Netherlands and serves no intrest for the country.


so yes you are putting words in peoples mouths

[LaoSexMachine]

were are these dutch members saying



so yes you are putting words in peoples mouths


and that is in contradict with the general view of the Dutch that we should not be fighting other countries war's...........


68% of the dutch people think that we should not send soldiers to Afghanistan (including me!) - ,,........


we have no obligation period, it's your war, you started it so you have to carry the burden..............


But then again English is your Third language so I took it into consideration

[sp2c]

so there are people that feel we should not be or are not obliged to go to Afghanistan ... there's Americans thinking that about the American troops too

that's not the same dude

[LaoSexMachine]

so there are people that feel we should not be or are not obliged to go to Afghanistan ... there's Americans thinking that about the American troops too

that's not the same dude

WTF????1111 you are hopless..I quit. Everytime I bring up somethng to back up my post..you sidestep and weasel out of it. Cheers

[sp2c]

fine let's analyse those quotes





Originally Posted by Shar.
It's too many risk!!
Afghanistan is too dangerous..
68% of the dutch people think that we should not send soldiers to Afghanistan (including me!) - http://www.zibb.nl/nieuws/binnenland...sie=1&rss=true -
And D66 was against, so why saying that we should go ?
I'm hoping that the government is saying that the dutch don't have to go to Afghanistan.. Ofcourse you train for something like this.. But afghanistan is way to dangerous..

If the government will send some troops to afghanistan.. my bf has to go too.. he told me something about the whole thing, and he saw some article:



Uhm the article is dutch, but it says:
That we should not be so naive, if we do the same way as the US then maybe the Taliban will do something.
Uruzgan is extremely dangerous, we should'nt send troops to Afghanistan, if we do then we'd better bring some coffins

He has to go in january 2007, so Im really hoping the government says a big "no"!.....

ok here you have somewhat of a point, she doesn't think we should send troops because it's too dangerous but not because it's too far away or that it's not in our interests




Originally Posted by sp2c
we have no obligation period, it's your war, you started it so you have to carry the burden

if you don't want to go into the technical details then that's fine by me but don't bring them up either. Afghanistan did not attack the US by your rhetoric NATO nations can also be forced to attack germany for releasing that terrorist that killed an American 20 years ago.

here I said that we are not obliged to go to Afghanistan because of NATO, not that we shouldn't go because people might get killed

In fact I didn't say that we shouldn't go at all


Originally Posted by Hemaworstje
main reason is that America should have cleared the area before we were to supposed to give Aid, that did not happen , now we are being asked to fight along , and that is in contradict with the general view of the Dutch that we should not be fighting other countries war's.
That wil not happen , the same reason why we and others left Iraq.

this guy does not think that we should fight other people's wars, not that we shouldn't go to Afghanistan because people might get killed

so you are putting words in peoples mouths and you back it up by putting more words in peoples mouths

but I'm glad to hear you gave up because there are more important things to do then argue with you on my friday night :D

[LaoSexMachine]

I didn't put words in their mouths..that what i got from reading some Dutch members post.It goes back to if your not willing or can't meet does obligation due to your people and government then the Alliance is not for you. BTW it's afternoon here so i have time.

[Robbie]

And what exactly do you think our obligation is?

[LaoSexMachine]

And what exactly do you think our obligation is?

Do you want me to drag out the NATO decleration because sp2c don't think it means anything?

[sp2c]

I didn't put words in their mouths..that what i got from reading some Dutch members post.

sure, keep saying that


It goes back to if your not willing or can't meet does obligation due to your people and government then the Alliance is not for you. BTW it's afternoon here so i have time.

we have no NATO obligation in Uruzgan, or in Afghanistan for that matter

we are there because our government thinks we should, not because NATO says we must

[Robbie]

Do you want me to drag out the NATO decleration because sp2c don't think it means anything?

No, I want you to tell me, translated to real-life, on-the-ground situated activities, what do you expect our military to do?

[LaoSexMachine]

No, I want you to tell me, translated to real-life, on-the-ground situated activities, what do you expect our military to do?

To provide security to the Aussies..I don't blame your military but the men in suits that keep them from doing there job

[LaoSexMachine]

sure, keep saying that


we have no NATO obligation in Uruzgan, or in Afghanistan for that matter

we are there because our government thinks we should, not because NATO says we must



ISAF's primary role is to support the Government of Afghanistan (GOA) in providing and maintaining a secure environment in order to facilitate the re-building of Afghanistan.
ISAF is in Afghanistan to assist the Government of Afghanistan in ensuring a safe and secure environment that will be conducive to establishing democratic structures, to facilitate the reconstruction of the country and to assist in expanding the influence of the central government.
ISAF is here at the request of the Government of Afghanistan and operates under UN mandate with the full support of the international community.
ISAF integrates its efforts with the highest levels of authority at the Government of Afghanistan, with the United Nations Assistance Mission to Afghanistan (UNAMA), with the Combined Forces Command-Afghanistan, the US-led Coalition, and with other actors of the international community.
ISAF will not depart until the mission is accomplished. This is NATO's priority mission and as such our resolve reflects the commitment of NATO to the reconstruction of Afghanistan. We will remain until the people of Afghanistan have developed government structures and security forces that are sustainable and capable of ensuring the security of all Afghans without outside support.

http://www.afnorth.nato.int/ISAF/mission/mission_role.htm

NATO Members

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/14/NATO_expansion.png/559px-NATO_expansion.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/14/NATO_expansion.png)

Wow, the Netherlands is a part of it.

[Robbie]

To provide security to the Aussies..I don't blame your military but the men in suits that keep them from doing there job

I don't think providing security to one of our allies should play a role in our decision whether to go or not, as obviously this would just be an additional on-the-side job. The main word we're talking about is reconstruction. How can you expect us to provide security to an Aussie reconstruction team, if we are not convinced our own main mission objective, wich is reconstruction, is eligible for succes?

[LaoSexMachine]

I don't think providing security to one of our allies should play a role in our decision whether to go or not, as obviously this would just be an additional on-the-side job. The main word we're talking about is reconstruction. How can you expect us to provide security to an Aussie reconstruction team, if we are not convinced our own main mission objective, wich is reconstruction, is eligible for succes?

how would you know about success if you don't try. Do the Dutch think it's a helpless cause in A-stan

[sp2c]

http://www.afnorth.nato.int/ISAF/mission/mission_role.htm

doesn't say that we are obliged to send troops does it?



NATO Members

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/14/NATO_expansion.png/559px-NATO_expansion.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/14/NATO_expansion.png)

Wow, the Netherlands is a part of it.
no ****?

we are part of ISAF too did you know that?

[sp2c]

how would you know about success if you don't try. Do the Dutch think it's a helpless cause in A-stan

the general feeling is that Uruzgan is not ready for reconstruction work at this point, that's why people do not want the mission.

we'd have a potentially high amount of casualties without a great chance of success in completing the goals set for the mission.

additionally the purpose of this deployment is not to protect the Australians but to reconstruct Uruzgan and provide security there, that's what was requested and that's what people don't think is possible at this point.

[LaoSexMachine]

doesn't say that we are obliged to send troops does it?


no ****?

we are part of ISAF too did you know that?

Are you or are you not a part of NATO fvckturd do you comprehend english. I gave you the benefit of a doubt that English was not your language, but now I KNOW YOU ARE RETARDED. If you are PART OF ISAF the YOU HAVE AN OBLIGATION. It's just shows the real Eurowussie in you.

doesn't say that we are obliged to send troops does it?

ISAF's primary role is to support the Government of Afghanistan (GOA) in providing and maintaining a secure environment in order to facilitate the re-building of Afghanistan.
ISAF is in Afghanistan to assist the Government of Afghanistan in ensuring a safe and secure environment that will be conducive to establishing democratic structures, to facilitate the reconstruction of the country and to assist in expanding the influence of the central government.
ISAF is here at the request of the Government of Afghanistan and operates under UN mandate with the full support of the international community.


no ****?

we are part of ISAF too did you know that?

[Victis Honor]

The only reason we are beeong asked to go there and secure/reconstruct is becuase the US cant. With cant i dont mean the incompetense of its soldiers but the lack of money to send in more troops and the current goverment unwillingnes to send more. Now to the rest of you who have a problem with us (the Netherlands) not sending troops (no final desicion has been made), we have send troops in for combat duty commando's are doing there work alongside other troops to find terrorist and other scum.

The point that some of the other dutch members are trying to make is that we wont send people to do a joid that is hopeless obliged or not.

And no we dont think its a helpless cuase (not from what i am hearing).

And hell we are doing more than our part in NATO so STFU about that please.

[Greek soldier]

so there are people that feel we should not be or are not obliged to go to Afghanistan ... there's Americans thinking that about the American troops too

that's not the same dude

The same here in Greece, but our Generals thought that since we are "Yunans" and because of Alexander the Great, the Afghans wouldn't hurt us. They even decided to write in our VBLs the word "Yunan" in Arabic and calm down the Greek soldiers and their families... True, they do like there the Greeks but few weeks ago there was an attack against a convoy consisting Greek, British and German troops.

[sp2c]

Are you or are you not a part of NATO fvckturd do you comprehend english. I gave you the benefit of a doubt that English was not your language, but now I KNOW YOU ARE RETARDED. If you are PART OF ISAF the YOU HAVE AN OBLIGATION. It's just shows the real Eurowussie in you.

yes we are part of NATO, I said that a number of times did you miss it?

and yes we have troops in ISAF but not because we have to but because we want to, I said that a number of times as well I believe?

as said before, the alliance was never meant for operations outside of it's borders so nobody can force us to do anything for Afghanistan, you can ask us and if we feel like it we will do it just as we have in the past and will do in the future


doesn't say that we are obliged to send troops does it?

no it says that NATO is committed to ISAF, this can mean any number of things from sending money to providing logistics, troops or even as little as political support

[haschmich]

I imagine Aussie engineers can handle themselves quite well. Lets not forget the slaughter inflicted upon German airborne troops in the battle for Crete in '41 by cooks, runners, and engineers of the 19th Australian Infantry Brigade
:roll:
you're not very intelligent, are you?

[Hemaworstje]

well I am not a person that is against combat of our Army ,or fighting along others, it is the time and place and priority that bothers me, if the soldiers wish to fight , I completely agree, no sense in having a well equipped and trained army for defense, so if we have one , we might as well use it.
First we take Belgium.

[sp2c]

stop talking out of your ass

[Laworkerbee]

:roll:
you're not very intelligent, are you?

And whats your problem that requires you being such an ass?

[Indawo]

sure blame the dutch, there are 200.000 soldiers down there ,you don't really need 1200 of our guys/girls , from a logistical point of view it is absurd to gather military personnal and material from dozens of countries.
it is not domino , it is about one part of a province ,one part of afghanistan in which we think before deciding going into battle , the human aid and building of infrastructure in other parts of Afghanistan goes on as planned.
We hate to get shot in the nutz by some poppyfarmer with one goat who thinks Afghanistan is his country , right?
No one particularly likes getting shot in the nuts be it by one man with a goat, or anyone else for that matter.

Unfortunately the risk comes with the territory when you decide to put on that uniform. Surely your not implying that its okay for someone else to take the shot?