To my Friends in The United Kingdom

[Sayeret]

Many of you have written over the past year, back when my Website was drearic.com, asking about how you could possibly defend yourselves in your Country when everything has been taken from you. Yet there is a diehard criminal element attacking not only each other, but also good, Law-abiding British Subjects.



Understand, precisely, that I am in no way “attacking” British Subjects when I say the following.



Your Country does not care about your safety in the slightest. This is harsh to say; yet it is true. Your Country would rather investigate the murder of you or your family instead of allowing you the ability to defend yourself by carrying something as simple as a Kubotan Keychain (Pocket Stick).



These are facts; they are not my opinion. The Government does not come right out and say that, their other words and actions support the fact that they feel this way.



ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS! YET THE WORDS ARE THERE FOR YOU TO SEE!



On the Avon and Somerset Police Website, it clearly states:



“Can I carry a knife to protect myself from people who might attack me in the street?”



The answer on the Website is simply:



“No. The law does not allow you to carry a knife or any other weapon for self-defence.”

More (http://www.donrearic.com/tomyfriendsintheunitedkingdom.html)

Opinions? Comments? Concerns?

[signatory]

Can someone link or paste the UK law on this subject.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

It's British Citizens not 'subject's. That kind of terminology went out with the ark.

British subjects have no right of abode in the UK.

[CMNot]

Sorry, he was making the right points in a kind of right way, until this...


here is a “Knife Amnesty” going on right now as I type this (October 28, 2002) in certain areas in the U.K. and anyone that turns a knife or possibly some other type of simple “weapon” in, is guaranteed that this is an anonymous act.

What they are NOT telling you is, they fingerprinted the weapons around 1996-1997 when the last “Knife Amnesty” went on

Hilariously ill informed.

[Omaha]

It is the truth isn't it? You can't even protect yourself. So many stabbings and now increases in shootings...they sure as hell aren't in self defense, they are robberies, assaults, and muggings.

You guys don't even allow your Police to carry firearms. What are they supposed to do when confronted with an armed criminal, oh that's right run away. What the hell kind of police force is that?

[oldsoak]

Our concept of an unarmed police force goes back to the idea that the police were part of the judiciary, not the military, and therefore had no need to bear arms. Because we did not have the idea of well regulated militias etc, we did not have a wide spread circulation of firearms ( also being a small country with little countryside you could hunt in, the average citizen did not bother with the purchase of weaponry ) - therefore the police would not often encounter firearms . There was also the idea that an armed police would be seen as an oppressive force, plus a culture where shooting or wounding an unarmed policeman was seen as a bad thing, even amoungst the criminal fraternity.
A lot of thats been eroded unfortunately , and the time will come when I suspect that one of each pair of policemen on the beat will be a gun.

[babydave]

theres 2 main differences between the US police and the UK police. The US police are likely to be in the presence of a firearm wherever they go where as in the UK its only the criminal element that has firearms so the US police are more likely to encounter weapons.

and its a good point about a sense of respect toward the police in the UK although the new generation of criminals seems to be disregarding that.


“No. The law does not allow you to carry a knife or any other weapon for self-defence.”

this is a good thing, we should never be in the situation where everyone is out with some sort of weapon, its asking for trouble.example:

coming home from a night out, the person has been drinking, a gang starts verbally abusing them/spitting at them and their partner - whats to stop the guy from making a misjudgement and using a gun/knife on them?

it also gives every thug in the country a licence to be armed

no thanks.


What are they supposed to do when confronted with an armed criminal, oh that's right run away. What the hell kind of police force is that?

show me an example of where a police officer has scampered off back to the police station because he is scared of guns....

[martinexsquaddie]

knives are crap weapons for self defense

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I still don't understand how carrying a weapon whether it's a knife or whatever makes you safer from a surprise attack on the street (which is what most muggings etc are). If you let yourself be taken by surprise its basically game over. Whether you're carrying a knife or a pistol chances are you won't get a chance to use it effectively and carrying it will only give you a false sense of security and/or increase your risk of accidents/NDs etc.

It seems to me that on the street (in the UK at least) your best weapon is basically to be not walking around with your head up your arse.

[babydave]

It seems to me that on the street (in the UK at least) your best weapon is basically to be not walking around with your head up your arse.

exactly and its served me well so far.

if someone wants to shoot u they are gonna do it, even if you are a police officer with a sidearm - your glock isnt going to deflect bullets going towards your back.

[mmackem]

show me an example of where a police officer has scampered off back to the police station because he is scared of guns....

Heres an example of the exact opposite.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/293285.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/290000/video/_293285_hughes6am_vi.ram

[Vandervahn]

This Don Rearic has a nice writing style, and he also seems to be really concerned about people. However, he also seems to have problems to the point of being involuntarily hilarious. Either that or he must live in the worst and most dangerous Ghetto to be found.

This man sees danger and dangerous offenders everywhere. He completely disregards that most people will NEVER in their life have to face a criminal with the intention to harm them (I am not talking about bar brawls here). He doesnt promote a feel of security, he promotes FEAR by implying that bad things, danger for your life not only can, but most probably WILL happen to everyone.

He also disregards that most people do not have the physical ability to withstand an attack against a probably vicious, young or even drug influenced attacker - even moreso if they are taken by surprise. I nearly laughed when I came to the section where he advised disabled people on which brand of cane to buy! Also, he implies that his personal perception of danger on the streets of America could be applied as well to the streets of Britain - which is factually wrong, as they are different societies.

All in all, the only useable self-defense weapon for the ordaniry man is a course in selfdefense. If people do not know where and how to strike, how to avoid and scare away attackers even the largest knife will scarcely help them. Also, I rather prefer walking around WITHOUT constantly worrying (and with the knowledge that I COULD put up a fight with a criminal), than admitting fear so much as to carry around a baton, a knife or some other most-probably useless weapon. I mean, Mr Drearic seems to be very competent about hand-to-hand and blunt/edged weapons combat, but his attitude disqualifies itself because he obviously sees NO OTHER way than confronting a criminal/attacker, although a retreat in the most cases and especially for most people is the most sensible choice.

[big_les]

This Don Rearic has a nice writing style, and he also seems to be really concerned about people. However, he also seems to have problems to the point of being involuntarily hilarious. Either that or he must live in the worst and most dangerous Ghetto to be found.

This man sees danger and dangerous offenders everywhere. He completely disregards that most people will NEVER in their life have to face a criminal with the intention to harm them (I am not talking about bar brawls here). He doesnt promote a feel of security, he promotes FEAR by implying that bad things, danger for your life not only can, but most probably WILL happen to everyone.

He also disregards that most people do not have the physical ability to withstand an attack against a probably vicious, young or even drug influenced attacker - even moreso if they are taken by surprise. I nearly laughed when I came to the section where he advised disabled people on which brand of cane to buy! Also, he implies that his personal perception of danger on the streets of America could be applied as well to the streets of Britain - which is factually wrong, as they are different societies.

All in all, the only useable self-defense weapon for the ordaniry man is a course in selfdefense. If people do not know where and how to strike, how to avoid and scare away attackers even the largest knife will scarcely help them. Also, I rather prefer walking around WITHOUT constantly worrying (and with the knowledge that I COULD put up a fight with a criminal), than admitting fear so much as to carry around a baton, a knife or some other most-probably useless weapon. I mean, Mr Drearic seems to be very competent about hand-to-hand and blunt/edged weapons combat, but his attitude disqualifies itself because he obviously sees NO OTHER way than confronting a criminal/attacker, although a retreat in the most cases and especially for most people is the most sensible choice.

Excellent assessment. I'd *like* to be able to carry a weapon to defend myself, but my rational side agrees that we shouldn't be able to do so for the reasons stated above. Running away or employing very well rehearsed defensive martial arts moves (or a swift kick in the happy-sacks/eye-gouge) and *then* running away are your two top choices if attacked on the street.

[Hydro]

You guys don't even allow your Police to carry firearms.


Yes we do. I remember when in my living room I once had two policeman enjoying a cup of tea complete with 2 MP5 SMG's, 2 SIG P228's and a cut down pump action shotgun. Every time I go to London every other Old Bill seems to be toting an MP5, and that's not counting the river police in their patrol boats with G36C's. What about the police snipers I saw in the paper with L96's? The SG552's carried by the cops at a southern train station after 7/7? When their was a sighting of a "big black cat like creature" down south some time back (reputably an escaped panther) who turned up with G36K's to try and find it? Oh, that's right, the POLICE.

The capability is there. Whether the current doctrine of applying armed officers is correct or not is another matter.

[CMNot]

Can someone link or paste the UK law on this subject.

Just to quantify, you are allowed to use 'acceptable and/or reasonable force' to defend your-self.


A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:

* self-defence; or
* defence of another; or
* defence of property; or
* prevention of crime; or
* lawful arrest.

In assessing the reasonableness of the force used, prosecutors should ask two questions:

* was the use of force justified in the circumstances, i.e. was there a need for any force at all? and
* was the force used excessive in the circumstances?

The courts have indicated that both questions are to answered on the basis of the facts as the accused honestly believed them to be (R v Williams (G) 78 Cr. App R 276), (R. v Oatbridge, 94 Cr App R 367) and (Archbold 19-49).

LINK (http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section5/chapter_d.html)

[big_les]

Yes we do. I remember when in my living room I once had two policeman enjoying a cup of tea complete with 2 MP5 SMG's, 2 SIG P228's and a cut down pump action shotgun. Every time I go to London every other Old Bill seems to be toting an MP5, and that's not counting the river police in their patrol boats with G36C's. What about the police snipers I saw in the paper with L96's? The SG552's carried by the cops at a southern train station after 7/7? When their was a sighting of a "big black cat like creature" down south some time back (reputably an escaped panther) who turned up with G36K's to try and find it? Oh, that's right, the POLICE.

The capability is there. Whether the current doctrine of applying armed officers is correct or not is another matter.

Yep. And I understood that ARU's had the same response time as ordinary police units. Which leaves the argument that a police officer can't adequately defend his/herself if attacked. The balance of opinion amongst the people that do the job and the people that employ them is that they can. And that the negative effect upon society applied by radically altering doctrine and philosophy is too great.

[signatory]

thanks CMN . Yeah this is why I never bothered to comment on the talkie talk article... It just didn't look right.

Yet to read the knife-law but I suppose they have similar reasonableness to take into count when they stop someone carrying a knife. Such as the person using it for self-defense was actually carrying it to/from a shop or on his way to a fishing trip etc.

[big_les]

thanks CMN . Yeah this is why I never bothered to comment on the talkie talk article... It just didn't look right.

Yet to read the knife-law but I suppose they have similar reasonableness to take into count when they stop someone carrying a knife. Such as the person using it for self-defense was actually carrying it to/from a shop or on his way to a fishing trip etc.

If it's not easily accessible, you're fine. So you can carry weapons in your car or on your person, provided they are wrapped or secured well enough to prevent ready access. Certain weapons are completely illegal to own, needless to say. Knife-wise, any knife with a folding blade 3.5" long or less is legal to carry in your pocket/on your belt etc. Automatic and butterfly knives are illegal though. There are provisions for collectors I believe (e.g. for sword-sticks).

Personally I think we've gone too far with our firearms legislation (when correct policing of the existing laws would have prevented Hungerford and Dunblane), but otherwise we get things pretty much right for our situation.

[CMNot]

Pleasure signatory.

Big Les covers the knife point rather well. A knife generally will be charged under offensive weapons...


...any article made or adapted for use to causing injury to the person, or intended by the person having it with him for such use...

If you are bored one day and have any remote interest in criminal law, www.cps.gov.uk/ is a great resource to pass some idle time on.

It is by no means definitive, as our Criminal and Civil Law works under a system of precedence and burden of proof. That is to say, there is not one place in the UK where you can go and read the Law per se.

[MrScruff]

knives are crap weapons for self defense

it also gives every thug in the country a licence to be armed

Says it all. I just keep a high powered torch in my room, blind the git if he comes up the stairs. Not my fault if he inadvertently falls down the stairs at the same time.

I quite like how people are shocked at how '****** up' our country is because we can't carry weapons

rofl

[Hydro]

I quite like how people are shocked at how '****** up' our country is because we can't carry weapons

rofl


Even worse is the misconception that "we can't have guns". Aaaaaaactually...Yes, yes we can. Using them for self defence however is MASSIVELY frowned upon (but see below, could there be a precedent for self defence involving legally held firearms). Owning a few for having a cabby at a few deer or at a range however is almost normal in some places.

I'm not massively familiar with the law, but: If you spy some crim breaking into your property who was armed with a firearm, and you just happened to have the legally owned Lee Enfield No.1 MkIII* out for a bit of cleaning, would putting a .303 through the git come under reasonable force given you had good reason to believe he had a firearm?

[Bobcharge]

I think the biggest problem with allowing everybody to be armed is that it will encourage violent crime. What would be a punch up could easily turn into a gun fight, and I for one, don't want to live in a society where people, regardless or whether they breaking the law or not, are shot over trivial matters such as TVs.

I'm not convinced that the police can be trusted with weapons. How many police officers are killed on duty annually? I'm not sure of the exact number but I think it's usually less than five. Do those infavour of arming the police honestly believe that carrying guns will reduce this?

For those Brits that wish to walk around tooled up, then why not carry an umbrella? You won't get stopped by the police, you're not carrying an offence weapon and it's the perfect item for keeping an attacker at arms length.

When ever I read this type of thread, there are a lot of comments from people who seem more interested in dishing out their own particular brand of justice then actually defending themselves.


Regards,

Bob

[Omaha]

Yes we do. I remember when in my living room I once had two policeman enjoying a cup of tea complete with 2 MP5 SMG's, 2 SIG P228's and a cut down pump action shotgun. Every time I go to London every other Old Bill seems to be toting an MP5, and that's not counting the river police in their patrol boats with G36C's. What about the police snipers I saw in the paper with L96's? The SG552's carried by the cops at a southern train station after 7/7? When their was a sighting of a "big black cat like creature" down south some time back (reputably an escaped panther) who turned up with G36K's to try and find it? Oh, that's right, the POLICE.

The capability is there. Whether the current doctrine of applying armed officers is correct or not is another matter.


I meant standard beat cops not under emergency/special circumstances, like here.


And to ever left me a - rep saying "Me again" is a douche bag. Grow some balls you little marry and sign your ****.

****en cowards.

[MrScruff]

I think the biggest problem with allowing everybody to be armed is that it will encourage violent crime. What would be a punch up could easily turn into a gun fight, and I for one, don't want to live in a society where people, regardless or whether they breaking the law or not, are shot over trivial matters such as TVs.
I seem to remember the home office issuing warnings about some states in America after they introduced new gun laws which would allow you to shoot someone in public if you felt you were in danger (i.e. a bar fight). That's pretty messed up if you ask me.

[martinexsquaddie]

remember back in the 80s a barking plan to issue squaddies going home on leave brownings for personal protection from the ira.
it was quashed pretty quickly as yes some squaddies were killed by the provos but the level of mayhem that the average tom armed after a few pints does'n bear thinking about.

[oldsoak]

Yes we do. I remember when in my living room I once had two policeman enjoying a cup of tea complete with 2 MP5 SMG's, 2 SIG P228's and a cut down pump action shotgun. Every time I go to London every other Old Bill seems to be toting an MP5, and that's not counting the river police in their patrol boats with G36C's. What about the police snipers I saw in the paper with L96's? The SG552's carried by the cops at a southern train station after 7/7? When their was a sighting of a "big black cat like creature" down south some time back (reputably an escaped panther) who turned up with G36K's to try and find it? Oh, that's right, the POLICE.

The capability is there. Whether the current doctrine of applying armed officers is correct or not is another matter.

- was that before or after they brought up the subject of your parking ticket ? :lol:

[Hydro]

- was that before or after they brought up the subject of your parking ticket ? :lol:
roflrofl



.................

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Even worse is the misconception that "we can't have guns". Aaaaaaactually...Yes, yes we can. Using them for self defence however is MASSIVELY frowned upon (but see below, could there be a precedent for self defence involving legally held firearms). Owning a few for having a cabby at a few deer or at a range however is almost normal in some places.

I'm not massively familiar with the law, but: If you spy some crim breaking into your property who was armed with a firearm, and you just happened to have the legally owned Lee Enfield No.1 MkIII* out for a bit of cleaning, would putting a .303 through the git come under reasonable force given you had good reason to believe he had a firearm?
You could slot him and then place an airsoft replica in his cold dead hands for when the coppers arrive ;-)
THAT WAS A JOKE OF COURSE.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Jeez I was never worried that much about my personnel safety in the UK until I started browsing militaryphotos.net I now usually only leave the house during daylight hours keeping only to busy streets and avoiding eye contact with anybody wearing a Berghaus jacket and baseball cap.

[gaz]

Jeez I was never worried that much about my personnel safety in the UK until I started browsing militaryphotos.net I now usually only leave the house during daylight hours keeping only to busy streets and avoiding eye contact with anybody wearing a Berghaus jacket and baseball cap.

I haven't got a Berghaus jacket but I do have some of their boots. Am I alright?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Jeez I was never worried that much about my personnel safety in the UK until I started browsing militaryphotos.net I now usually only leave the house during daylight hours keeping only to busy streets and avoiding eye contact with anybody wearing a Berghaus jacket and baseball cap.

I never worried about the liberal, media, gay, French, UN conspiracy for world domination until I found militaryphotos.net. Now I can't leave the house without worrying that black helicopters will swoop down and abduct me so that French Foreign Legionnaires working for CNN and the BBC can do obscene things to me with their large baguettes.

[Bobcharge]

Hahaha! Are there any British people here who aren't total sarcy bastards? :D


Bob

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I never worried about the liberal, media, gay, French, UN conspiracy for world domination until I found militaryphotos.net. Now I can't leave the house without worrying that black helicopters will swoop down and abduct me so that French Foreign Legionnaires working for CNN and the BBC can do obscene things to me with their large baguettes.Yup, you gotta watch them liberal gay Frenchmen, buggers the lot of them.

[Hydro]

Hahaha! Are there any British people here who aren't total sarcy bastards? :D


Bob


British? Sarcastic? Nuh uh!!




(Oh wait, that was more sarcasm...ah, ****..)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Hahaha! Are there any British people here who aren't total sarcy bastards? :D


Bob

No there aren't.

[martinexsquaddie]

what us sarcastic no not I sir
cynical and sick yes
Young officer so as a sniper are officers a priority target?
Me not really sir we don't want to improve the enemys efficency and morale we tend to look for senior NCOs instead.

[oldsoak]

what us sarcastic no not I sir
cynical and sick yes
Young officer so as a sniper are officers a priority target?
Me not really sir we don't want to improve the enemys efficency and morale we tend to look for senior NCOs instead.

....you dont come off the promotions board very often do you ? :-)

[babydave]

I meant standard beat cops not under emergency/special circumstances, like here.

our police are regularly quizzed as to whther they want guns and again and again they say no, why is this you say? because the tabloids scare mongering over the odd isolated incident doesnt represent british society, many officers will never come into any contact with firearms.

call the police cowards because they arent armed if you like, but i disagree and the links on the 1st page back that up.

[Vandervahn]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/nav/v3_banners/v3_ifh_banner.gif
Saturday, 19 November 2005, 15:28 GMT


Pc Sharon Beshenivsky is the 36th police officer to be murdered in the line of duty in the past two decades in England, Scotland and Wales. ...

Of the 36 officers murdered in England, Scotland and Wales since 1985, 12 have been killed by vehicles, 11 shot, 10 stabbed and three died after being beaten, according to the Police Roll of Honour Trust.
...
The memorial recognises the 4,000-plus police officers who have died while on duty in the past 175 years, painstakingly compiled by the trust. Today most die in crashes involving vehicles. Only a minority are murdered.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4451852.stm
While of course every death in the line of duty is a tragedy, I personally do not see an increased need for armed officers in the UK yet. 4000 killed coppers in 175 years translates to an average of ~23 dead per year - killed by ANY means. However in the recent 20 years only 36were killed. So if the number of policemen/women that died in 20 years is the statistical average for 2 years, and while of course every death in the line of duty is a tragedy itself, personally I do not see any urgent need for a rearming yet.

[Belrick]

It is the truth isn't it? You can't even protect yourself. So many stabbings and now increases in shootings...they sure as hell aren't in self defense, they are robberies, assaults, and muggings.

You guys don't even allow your Police to carry firearms. What are they supposed to do when confronted with an armed criminal, oh that's right run away. What the hell kind of police force is that?

Dont be an ignoramous. You can protect yourself. Simply join the police force where you will be given the tools, support and TRAINING required for you to not only responsibly protect yourself but others around you.

All other methods are just knee jerk reactions by amatures who do more harm to themselves and innocents than true threats. See America for an example of a self protection motivated, gun culture run riot. (can anyone say New Orleans?)