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Firetxmi
01-07-2006, 10:53 AM
By ERIC LICHTBLAU and SCOTT SHANE
Published: January 7, 2006

WASHINGTON, Jan. 6 - President Bush's rationale for eavesdropping on Americans without warrants rests on questionable legal ground, and Congress does not appear to have given him the authority to order the surveillance, said a Congressional analysis released Friday.

The analysis, by the Congressional Research Service, a nonpartisan research arm of Congress, was the first official assessment of a question that has gripped Washington for three weeks: Did Mr. Bush act within the law when he ordered the National Security Agency, the country's most secretive spy agency, to eavesdrop on some Americans?

The report, requested by several members of Congress, reached no bottom-line conclusions on the legality of the program, in part because it said so many details remained classified. But it raised numerous doubts about the power to bypass Congress in ordering such operations, saying the legal rationale "does not seem to be as well grounded" as the administration's lawyers have argued.

The administration quickly disputed several conclusions in the report.

The report was particularly critical of a central administration justification for the program, that Congress had effectively approved such eavesdropping soon after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks by authorizing "all necessary and appropriate force" against the terrorist groups responsible. Congress "does not appear to have authorized or acquiesced in such surveillance," the report said, adding that the administration reading of some provisions of federal wiretap law could render them "meaningless."

The president acknowledged last month that he had given the security agency the power to eavesdrop on the international telephone and e-mail communications of Americans and others in the United States without a warrant if they were suspected of ties to Al Qaeda.

The Justice Department is investigating the disclosure of the program, first reported in The New York Times. With Congressional hearings expected this month, the Congressional research report intensified debate on the program. Administration lawyers quickly responded that Mr. Bush had acted within his constitutional and statutory powers.

"The president has made clear that he will use his constitutional and statutory authorities to protect the American people from further terrorist attacks," said Brian Roehrkasse, a Justice Department spokesman, adding that the program represented "a critical tool in the war on terror that saves lives and protects civil liberties at the same time."

Many Democrats and some Republicans pointed to the findings as perhaps the strongest indication that Mr. Bush might have exceeded his authority in fighting terrorism.

Representative George Miller, Democrat of California, who leads the House Democratic Policy Committee, said the report "raises serious questions about the president's legal authority to conduct domestic spying."

Mr. Miller said the justifications for the program were unacceptable.

Senator Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California, said the report made "absolutely clear that the legal authorities advanced by the president in justifying domestic surveillance are on very shaky ground."

Thomas H. Kean, a Republican who was chairman of the Sept. 11 commission, weighed in for the first time in the debate. Mr. Kean said he counted himself among those who doubted the legality of the program. He said in an interview that the administration did not inform his commission about the program and that he wished it had.

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which Congress passed in 1978 after widespread abuses by intelligence agencies, created a system for court-ordered wiretaps for terrorism and espionage suspects. That system "gives very broad powers to the president and, except in very rare circumstances, in my view ought to be used," Mr. Kean said.

"We live by a system of checks and balances," he said. "And I think we ought to continue to live by a system of checks and balances."

One reason the administration has cited for not seeking to change the intelligence law and obtain specific approvals for eavesdropping was that it might "tip off" terrorists to the program. The Congressional research service found that unconvincing.

"No legal precedent appears to have been presented," the study said, "that would support the president's authority to bypass the statutory route when legislation is required" simply because of secrecy.

Opinions on domestic spying have largely broken down, though not exclusively, along partisan lines, causing splits between the top Republicans and Democrats on the House and Senate Intelligence Committees.

The analyses of the Congressional Research Service, part of the Library of Congress created in 1914, are generally seen as objective and without partisan taint, said Eleanor Hill, staff director of the Congressional inquiry on the Sept. 11 attacks.

Because of its importance, the report was repeatedly reviewed by senior staff members at the research service for accuracy and bias before its release, officials there said.

Some Democrats say the administration bypassed the authority of Congress in ordering the eavesdropping. One congressman said he was actively misled. In a letter released Friday, Representative Rush D. Holt, a New Jersey Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, complained to the N.S.A. over what he described as deception by its director, Lt. Gen. Keith B. Alexander of the Army.

Mr. Holt, a physicist who has worked as an arms control specialist at the State Department, visited the agency on Dec. 6 for a briefing by General Alexander and agency lawyers about protecting Americans' privacy. The officials assured him, Mr. Holt said, that the agency singled out Americans for eavesdropping only under warrants from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.

After the program was disclosed, Mr. Holt wrote a blistering letter to General Alexander, expressing "considerable anger" over being misled. An agency spokesman, Don Weber, declined to comment on the letter.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/07/politics/07nsa.html?hp&ex=1136696400&en=147d251d212f7f11&ei=5094&partner=homepage

If nothing else it will be interesting to see how this all pans out.

KB
01-07-2006, 03:49 PM
The Bush Administration's unilateralist actions would be a bit more comprehensible (not sure if more legal) if Congress was controlled by Democrats. Seeing that it is controlled by the same Republican Party, why the Bush Administration persistence in their "to hell with everyone else" approach is flabbergasting. The House and 1/3 of the Senate is up for reelection in November; they are making it more difficult to keep Republican control of Congress.

Lt-Col A. Tack
01-07-2006, 04:55 PM
By ERIC LICHTBLAU and SCOTT SHANE
Published: January 7, 2006

WASHINGTON, Jan. 6 - President Bush's rationale for eavesdropping on Americans without warrants rests on questionable legal ground, and Congress does not appear to have given him the authority to order the surveillance,

The Executive Branch is co-equal to the Legislative and Judicial Branch.

Congress has certain checks on the Presidency, but is not superior to it.

I'd like to hear more about the legal rationale, but for the moment I'm prepared to give the president the benefit of doubt.

We've had presidents using the "inherent powers" of the executive branch for a very long time. Lincoln comes to mind.

Deuterium
01-07-2006, 05:12 PM
Personally I'd like to see some hard-core examples of who and when this was applied. I DO believe we are still at war. As such I am willing to give up certain liberties during times of war to make sure I still have a country (and people) to live in after the war is over.

So the Government has been listening to Americans that have been talking to AQ without a warrant? Fine with me and I suspect the majority of Americans. I've surfed a couple of AQ websites since 9/11 to see for myself the propaganda and if that means the government has my IP address or even searched my hard drive for terrorist materials that's fine with me, search on, sorry for all the porn, yes I did buy an ABBA song on iTunes as well.

Until the Government starts locking up all Muslims simply for being Muslims I'm not worried. And since there is a Republican in office I won't have to worry about that. TRUE wrongful and baseless infringements on personal liberties only happen during Democratic Presidents terms of office, thank you very much President (Franklin) Roosevelt. "Hey I just locked up all those Japanese to protect our country!"

Firetxmi
01-07-2006, 06:15 PM
TRUE wrongful and baseless infringements on personal liberties only happen during Democratic Presidents terms of office.

mmmhmm...Only Democrats!

Deuterium
01-07-2006, 11:18 PM
mmmhmm...Only Democrats!

Resigned as apposed to re-elected. Looks like you can lock up as many Asians as you want but spy on some white person and that's when you cross the line, funny how some things work.

Firetxmi
01-07-2006, 11:37 PM
Wasn't justifying FDR, just correcting you on a very broad statement. :D

Deuterium
01-07-2006, 11:50 PM
Wasn't justifying FDR, just correcting you on a very broad statement. :D

Oh my tongue was firmly planted in my cheak for my statement as well. History is a bitch. We do sometimes loose perspective on things. I'm sure most Americans sure didn't have much problem with what Roosevelt did as, I would argue, most Americans don't have much problem on what Bush did/does in regards to monitoring phones/Internet of suspected terrorists. Time will tell as it always does.

Firetxmi
01-07-2006, 11:59 PM
Oh my tongue was firmly planted in my cheak for my statement as well. History is a bitch. We do sometimes loose perspective on things. I'm sure most Americans sure didn't have much problem with what Roosevelt did as, I would argue, most Americans don't have much problem on what Bush did/does in regards to monitoring phones/Internet of suspected terrorists. Time will tell as it always does.


I have a problem with what both did/are doing. For me its not just a Republican vs. Democrat thing. Both were wrong, it just happens to be a Republican in office doing stupid stuff right now. I firmly believe in Hubris though, so all will come to an interesting end I am sure.

fremen
01-08-2006, 05:01 PM
I think W's been given too many blank checks already. Let him get away with this one and what will be next? Besides, the argument that "we are at war" doesn't make me feel much more at ease since the "war on terrorism" is likely to go on forever or until something bigger comes along.
In all likelyness "freedom" in the future will be reduced to a fond memory, that is if we keep giving presidents the benefit of the doubt.

caridon
01-08-2006, 05:17 PM
Oh my tongue was firmly planted in my cheak for my statement as well. History is a bitch. We do sometimes loose perspective on things. I'm sure most Americans sure didn't have much problem with what Roosevelt did as, I would argue, most Americans don't have much problem on what Bush did/does in regards to monitoring phones/Internet of suspected terrorists. Time will tell as it always does.

Lets not forget Abe Lincon. he did some rather ilegal things too. But it is not talked about generaly (nice case of "the winners write the History books")

/C - dons flameretardant suit.

usa320
01-09-2006, 01:34 AM
Personally I'd like to see some hard-core examples of who and when this was applied. I DO believe we are still at war. As such I am willing to give up certain liberties during times of war to make sure I still have a country (and people) to live in after the war is over.

So the Government has been listening to Americans that have been talking to AQ without a warrant? Fine with me and I suspect the majority of Americans. I've surfed a couple of AQ websites since 9/11 to see for myself the propaganda and if that means the government has my IP address or even searched my hard drive for terrorist materials that's fine with me, search on, sorry for all the porn, yes I did buy an ABBA song on iTunes as well.

Until the Government starts locking up all Muslims simply for being Muslims I'm not worried. And since there is a Republican in office I won't have to worry about that. TRUE wrongful and baseless infringements on personal liberties only happen during Democratic Presidents terms of office, thank you very much President (Franklin) Roosevelt. "Hey I just locked up all those Japanese to protect our country!"

word.


Secondly, they need to stop calling this the "domestic spying scandal". There was nothing domestic about it. The calls primarily originated abroad.

caridon
01-09-2006, 07:58 AM
Personally I'd like to see some hard-core examples of who and when this was applied. I DO believe we are still at war. As such I am willing to give up certain liberties during times of war to make sure I still have a country (and people) to live in after the war is over.

So the Government has been listening to Americans that have been talking to AQ without a warrant? Fine with me and I suspect the majority of Americans. I've surfed a couple of AQ websites since 9/11 to see for myself the propaganda and if that means the government has my IP address or even searched my hard drive for terrorist materials that's fine with me, search on, sorry for all the porn, yes I did buy an ABBA song on iTunes as well.

Until the Government starts locking up all Muslims simply for being Muslims I'm not worried. And since there is a Republican in office I won't have to worry about that. TRUE wrongful and baseless infringements on personal liberties only happen during Democratic Presidents terms of office, thank you very much President (Franklin) Roosevelt. "Hey I just locked up all those Japanese to protect our country!"

how about the day you dont get that goverment job you wanted because you listen to abba ?

Or you dont get approved for a new mortage because the info about your porn surfing leaked to the incurance company and the caseofficer is a born again fundie ?

and so on and so on.

and note the goverment dont just listen to americans that have talked to AQ, they listen to americans the goverment THINKS talk to AQ. that is a BIG difference.


/C

vryhpyammoadded
01-09-2006, 09:29 AM
I still say this isn't all that big a deal.
The corruption on the Hill is bigger.

ElHombre
01-09-2006, 02:03 PM
this is the sort of thing which will easily blow up in its supporters face in the future. even if you want to give this administration the benefit of the doubt (a move which is hard enough to justify given their past perforemance), what will keep these powers from being abused by future administrations? the current bunch is not the brightest buch to ever inhabit the executive branch. what will happen when a future, more competent group takes charge of the white house? what if it's one with a marked hostility towards those on the right side of the political spectrum? those laws were put into place for a d*** good reason, the excesses of the nixon administration and they weren't set all that high. it's long past time to find out exactly what our gov't is doing in our names, because we're ultimately the ones who are going to have to pay for it.

Mailman
01-09-2006, 07:04 PM
What if...what if...what if you get run over by a bus?

If you live your life always wondering about "what if's" then you are a pretty sad boy.

Mailman

ElHombre
01-09-2006, 07:19 PM
What if...what if...what if you get run over by a bus?

If you live your life always wondering about "what if's" then you are a pretty sad boy.

and when you get run over by a bus, i can dance on your grave saying, 'i told you to look both ways before crossing, dumba$$'.

Firetxmi
01-09-2006, 07:28 PM
What if...what if...what if you get run over by a bus?

If you live your life always wondering about "what if's" then you are a pretty sad boy.

Mailman

So this same logic can be applied to people who say we need to give away liberties for national security?

What if...What if.....One day America is attack by terrorists again?

I agree, we need to stop being such pussies and letting ourselves live in fear! Its a green, no orange, no purple, no blue terror day!

Mailman
01-10-2006, 03:35 AM
What liberties are you giving away?

Mailman

Mailman
01-10-2006, 03:36 AM
and when you get run over by a bus, i can dance on your grave saying, 'i told you to look both ways before crossing, dumba$$'.

And when you get run over by a bus all those liberties you are supposedly protecting are worthless.

Mailman

Firetxmi
01-10-2006, 11:24 AM
What liberties are you giving away?

Mailman

Lets start with Illegal search and seizure:

The Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads as follows:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I don't see the clause that says "Unless the president wants to do it without a warrant so he can 'prevent another imminant terrorist attack' and symbolicly increase executive power".

Still doesn't change the fact of the "What if's" that you seem to dislike. Our national security policy right now is built on a whole bunch of what ifs....Just how it is.

ElHombre
01-10-2006, 11:41 AM
And when you get run over by a bus all those liberties you are supposedly protecting are worthless.

are you afraid of terrs to the point of tearing up the bill of rights? whatever happened to, 'give me liberty or give me death'?

Clarsachier
01-10-2006, 11:48 AM
exempt from the 4th amendment - the IRS

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/10/politics/10irs.html

Quote ; President Bush signed an executive order last month "to ensure appropriate agency disclosure of information." In a meeting with newspaper editors last April, the president said, "The presumption ought to be that citizens ought to know as much as possible about the government decision making."

Quote ; Records showing how thoroughly the Internal Revenue Service audits big corporations and the rich, and how much it discounts the additional taxes assessed after audits, are being withheld from the public despite a 1976 court order requiring their disclosure, according to a legal motion filed last week in federal court in Seattle.

'It just wouldn't be like Bush to overlook an agency that's 'above the law' and
just happens to have a file on every tax payer. :roll: Additionally, the IRS has admitted to aquiring political data on 'taxpayers'.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/5440902p-4912739c.html

Quote ; WASHINGTON – As it hunted down tax scofflaws, the Internal Revenue Service collected information on the political party affiliations of taxpayers in 20 states.
Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash., a member of an appropriations subcommittee with jurisdiction over the IRS, said the practice was an “outrageous violation of the public trust” that could undermine the agency’s credibility.

Clarsachier
01-10-2006, 11:55 AM
are you afraid of terrs to the point of tearing up the bill of rights? whatever happened to, 'give me liberty or give me death'?

That's the key strategy being employed effectively by this administration.

I would've never thought I'd see so many Americans happily embracing the loss of their freedoms for the GWOT fallacy.
:-(

ViktorNavorski
01-10-2006, 05:50 PM
are you afraid of terrs to the point of tearing up the bill of rights? whatever happened to, 'give me liberty or give me death'?
Regarding the quote, that is about 200 years out of context.

Mailman
01-10-2006, 08:24 PM
are you afraid of terrs to the point of tearing up the bill of rights? whatever happened to, 'give me liberty or give me death'?

Your bleating will lead to the deaths of your innocent countrymen...but then again...you arent really too bothered about that are you?

Mailman

Mailman
01-10-2006, 08:26 PM
Lets start with Illegal search and seizure:

The Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads as follows:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I don't see the clause that says "Unless the president wants to do it without a warrant so he can 'prevent another imminant terrorist attack' and symbolicly increase executive power".

Still doesn't change the fact of the "What if's" that you seem to dislike. Our national security policy right now is built on a whole bunch of what ifs....Just how it is.

The operative word here would be "unreasonable". However if there is good reason to believe you are involved with terrorist activity then I have no problems with the Government crashing the party and bringing the smack down on your candy ass.

Mailman

Firetxmi
01-10-2006, 08:53 PM
The operative word here would be "unreasonable". However if there is good reason to believe you are involved with terrorist activity then I have no problems with the Government crashing the party and bringing the smack down on your candy ass.

Mailman

You'd be fine if the Gov showed up to your house and searched your families possesions without a warrant?

ElHombre
01-11-2006, 02:07 AM
The operative word here would be "unreasonable". However if there is good reason to believe you are involved with terrorist activity then I have no problems with the Government crashing the party and bringing the smack down on your candy ass.

which is why the FISA court has an approval rate of over 99%. if the administration is so sure that the people they're listening in on are terrs, then why can't they bother to spend a moment following the law? they have plenty of time, after all.

if they don't like the way the law is written, why don't they have congress go ahead and change it? considering that Rs control all three branches of gov't it shouldn't be that hard. it could even be easier than that. if congress passes a bill forbidding the bypassing of FISA, bush can sign it with that caveat he's been using over 500 times thus far. you know, the one saying he can ignore the signed law if 'national security needs' beckon.

and why does the administration have such a hard time getting its own lawyers to agree that their legal rationale is legal? they had to go to a hospital and get then-AG ashcroft (recovering from surgery) to sign off on it due to the fact that the deputy AG refused.

this isn't about national security any more than the terror alerts (which have subsided since nov '04. odd coincidence, wouldn't you agree?) are about warning americans. this is about an administration demanding to be allowed to do whatever the h*** it wants to do, the constitution be d*****.

Clarsachier
01-11-2006, 02:10 AM
The operative word here would be "unreasonable". However if there is good reason to believe you are involved with terrorist activity then I have no problems with the Government crashing the party and bringing the smack down on your candy ass.

Mailman

I think we probably all agree with that part.

We don't agree that due process should be forgone for what? - Expendiency? Who buys that?

ElHombre
01-11-2006, 02:19 AM
We don't agree that due process should be forgone for what? - Expendiency? Who buys that?

especially since the law gives you 72 hours to get approval after they've done the eavesdropping.

Firetxmi
01-11-2006, 09:05 AM
Just a thought: Does anyone really believe that these terrorists had absolutely no idea that the U.S. Gov. had the capability of [gasp] tapping a phone? That is why I don't buy the argument that by speaking out against it or "leaking" the information gave our terrorists valuable information. That is just a way to try and shut people up to a flawed policy. If that is our concern then I guess we should take the History Channel off the air. Why, just last night I was watching a show on the War on Terror and they were talking about spying on certain people, and exactly how certain military ops work, including wire-tapping. Traitors I tell you, Left-wing treason!