Request for information: thermobaric effects on armored vehicles

[akd]

Anyone know of tests/reports on the effects of thermobaric warheads on armored vehicles, particular buttoned versus unbuttoned vehicles?

[bluffcove]

At a guess?

thermobaric works by creating a large low pressure field. a sealed container sat in a low pressure area will explode....

responses?

Bluff

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

i remember reading somewhere that chechen rebels were trying to take out russian armour with them with negative results.if it could penetrate the armour it would be devastating but it cant so there.

[StukaJr]

If the vehicle is unbuttoned - the thermobaric warhead will work as advertised, the interior space working to amplify the effect, killing everybody inside. Since most of the modern MBT's provide some kind of hermetical seal in its buttoned up state - the fuel-air mixture has no means of penetrating into the interior space without an existing opening big enough. If you speak of PRO type warheads - I don't believe they have significant penetration ability, then again, there are thermobaric warheads for ATGM and BunkerBuster type missiles, but I can only guess how those things would work against modern armor

[GazB]

There are a few options.
RPO type rockets have a small shaped charge in their nose to blow a hole in structures. The FAE warhead material is then blown through that hole and then detonated making its effects absolutely catasrophic... assuming the target isn't so heavily armoured that the shaped charge can't penetrate. It is designed for light bunkers and the walls of buildings rather than penetrating APCs. A simple RPG-22 with a HEAT charge is much better at that.

The other option is to simply use a charge so powerful the explosion will kill the crew with the shockwave even if it doesn't penetrate the armour. A 500kg bomb will not penetrate the armour of an M1, but the shockwave from a 500kg bomb would kill everyone inside an M1... or any other tank in existence.


then again, there are thermobaric warheads for ATGM and BunkerBuster type missiles, but I can only guess how those things would work against modern armor

The use of Thermobaric warheads in ATGMs or HE FRaG warheads for ATGMs is misleading. For example the AT-2 and AT-6 ATGMs carried by Hinds in Afghanistan while the Soviets were there or in Chechnia were rarely used against enemy tanks or armour, just as Israeli Cobras and Apaches rarely used TOWs and Hellfires against enemy tanks during peace time. The most common use for such missiles is the precision low collateral damage engagement of enemy targets at long distances. Targets like a MG position in a building, or an RPG team or a small bunker etc. HEAT warheads are designed to penetrate armour and then kill in confined spaces. A room or bunker or MG position is not the same as the confines of an armoured vehicle and HEAT warheads, while accurate enough don't pack the right punch to take on the target. A normal HE FRAG warhead that blow fragments in all directions is rather more effective and that is the purpose of HE and FAE warheads in ATGMs.

On very light vehicles like that 4 wheel scout vehicle produced in the US or the BTR60-80 series then thermobaric explosive force alone might be effective, but for tracked vehicles it would need a huge warhead to be effective.

[akd]

Thanks for the thoughts all, but I understand basic principles behind HE, HEAT and thermobarics. I'm hoping to find actual tests or reports on effects on armored vehicles. So far, I've seen conflicting statements, some saying that the thermobaric blast would penetrate any openings on the vehicle, with severe consequences for the occupants, others saying that if the warhead detonated on the exterior, the blast would be deflected and dissipated into the open air, leaving blast effects on the order of HE and also incendiary effects on exposed equipment/materials. Other than such statements, the only information I've seen is secondhand on Russian use of RPO-A in Chechnya, which notes only its effectiveness against "lightly-armored vehicles" and ability to set fire to vehicles.

Obviously a thermobaric with an AP precursor that allowed the round to detonate inside the vehicle would be absolutely devastating, but I imagine that would take one hell of an AP precursor to make a hole large enough, kinda mitigating the need for the secondary warhead.