The "Sufa" arrives in Israel

[S'13]

Feb. 19, 2004
First F-16I fighter jets arrive
By ARIEH O'SULLIVAN

The first batch of the F-16I "Sufa" (storm) advance fighter bombers arrived in Israel Thursday afternoon, and were received at a ceremony attended by the Minister of Defense and the IDF's Chief of Staff.

The two aircraft took off from the Azures Islands and made their way towards the Ramon air base in the Negev.

Today's arrivals are the first of 102 aircrafts scheduled to arrive over the next 4 years in a deal valued at over $4.5 billion

Expectations are high for the expensive jet, which promises to dramatically boost Israel's long-arm reach.

When Israel signed the deal in 1999, Iraq was still a formidable power run by Saddam Hussein with alleged nuclear pretensions. Iran was quickly building long-range rockets and nuclear weapons and Libya was trying its best to purchase them. This has changed bringing into question the wisdom of purchasing three squadrons.

With the arrival of the 102 F-16Is, Israel will have a total of 362 of the jets – the largest fleet in any country in the world behind the United States. The F-16s are the backbone of the IAF, but these new "I" models will give added punch to the long-range capabilities of the IAF, and will complement the squadron of F-15Is Israel received at the end of the 1990s.

"This jet was built especially for us in Israel," said deputy squadron commander Maj. Yonatan, but chuckled it did not mean you could fly with one arm hanging out of the cockpit.

"The jet will be able to fly far distances and refuel in-flight. It can fly at a very low altitude at night and not be detected. It has electronic warfare suites that know how to hide it," Maj. Yonatan told Army Radio Saturday. "It's not that large, but its quick and aggressive and smart."

The F-16Is are rolling off of the production line at Lockheed Martin's plant in Ft. Worth, Texas at a steady pace. They are being assembled next to F-16s for the United Arab Emirates and Greece.
The $4.5 billion dollar deal is the largest arms deal ever taken in the history of the state. Lockheed Martin won the tender, beating rival Boeing, in 1999 to supply the advanced fighter jets. The first one rolled off the assembly line last November.

In Texas, the pilots and ground crew of the new jets have undergone training in simulators.
"We have a lot to learn from the Americans," said Maj. Yonatan, deputy commander of the "Negev" squadron of the fighter/bombers. "We had instructors who flew in Vietnam and it was like your grandfather teaching you to fly."

The aircraft have been supplemented to Israel's specifications and are different from any other F-16, even in the service of the US Air Force. They are being paid for from the annual US military grant given to Israel, which this year stands at about $2.2 billion.

Maj. Yonatan was a young pilot chosen to help set up the initial squadron of F-15Is when they arrived here in the late 1990s. He had actually left the military and was working in London as a consultant when he was offered the post as deputy head of the new squadron.

Security regulations did not allow his full name to be released.

He said that the all-weather jet represents "a totally different thing" for the Israeli air force. The F-16I is not just another F-16, but a completely redesigned jet. It has an 820 non-refueling radius of operation.

It has a 52,000-pound take off weight, which means it can haul more weaponry than older F-16s. The dual seater has a pilot and weapons engineer who "flies the bombs" down to the targets once they are released.

The squadron is made up of veteran pilots who have already proven themselves in other jets.

The F-16I will be based in the Negev which is part of the overall plan by the IAF to "move southward."


http://www.defensa.com/boletin/images/armamento/Israel%20F-16I%20F-T%20HR.jpg

[IDFM203]

Some more pics and info :D

http://www.idf.il/newsite/images/f16i.jpg

http://www.idf.il/newsite/images/sufa01.jpg


The Core Avionics of the F-16I Airplane - Based on an Israeli Development by the Israel Air Force

The F-16I, (or Sufa by its Hebrew name) aircraft, an enhanced version of the F-16, is produced by the American company "Lockheed Martin," and is one of the most advanced fighter aircraft in the world. It will become the leading aircraft of the IAF within the coming years. The F-16I represents a dramatic increase in operational capabilities; this is due to the advanced and varied combat systems that were integrated into the F-16I.
One of the unique attributes of the F-16I is that it is the first American fighter aircraft which has core avionics based upon an Israeli program developed written by the IAF computer unit.

This unit is also responsible for the integration of combat systems within the aircraft, like for example; the weapons system, which is designed to launch AMRAAM missiles via a sophisticated radar, the attack and navigational systems, satellite communication and anti-missile electronic warfare systems. Israelis also developed the Python 5 air-to-air heat-seeking missile, which is a development of Rafael, and an improved pilot's helmet with a number of sophisticated systems including a night vision system.
Something else that makes this project unique is the aerial table trainer. This allows the pilots of the F-16I to practice operating the aircraft without using a real expensive airplane, and without a full and expensive flight simulator. This also allows for better accessibility.
http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/021904-1.stm

http://www.idf.il/newsite/images/sufa02.jpg

http://www.idf.il/newsite/images/sufa03.jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040219/capt.sge.lth23.190204163553.photo00.default-384x261.jpg


Now this is all great and dandy, except for this “little” radar problem ;) :roll:

I just hope everything gets worked out anf fixed!!


The Israel Air Force has quietly expressed frustration over the Defense Ministry's decision to accept a U.S.-made radar for the new F-16I Sufa.
The Defense Ministry agreed to the Northrop Grumman's AN/APG-68(V)9 multi-mode radar as part of the request for 102 F-16 Block 50 aircraft from the United States in 1999. The U.S. Defense Department refused to allow Israel to install the Elta SAR radar on the F-16, the staple of NATO air forces.
Northrop Grumman's AN/APG-68(V)9 multimode radar will enable crews to detect airborne threats from a range 30% greater than the existing APG-69 system and adds a synthetic-aperture radar mode for high-resolution ground mapping.

Military sources however said that an evaluation by Israeli air force pilots of the U.S. radar showed it to be inferior to an indigenous Israeli radar designed by Elta Electronic Industries. Israeli pilots flew the F-16I in test flights in 2003 in the United States. http://www.f-16.net/f-16_news_article1001.html

For more on this problem, click here for a previous thread about it. (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8910&highlight=f16i)

Shalom :D

[usa320]

This is basically the same as the F-16E blk 60... I believe it was the UAE that was investing in those...why the US doesnt field them is beyond me- i guess probably because the F-15E is just as good if not better.

[IDFM203]

This is basically the same as the F-16E blk 60... I believe it was the UAE that was investing in those...why the US doesnt field them is beyond me- i guess probably because the F-15E is just as good if not better.Well the UAE version has better radar.

Israel has better radar as well, but as the little article I pointed out in my previous post, they aren’t allowed (hopefully that will be changed) to put theirs in (or at least upgrade the U.S. version).

As for the U.S. and why it doesn’t use its own technology that it developed on behalf of UAE on its own F16’s, well perhaps the U.S. is past all this and is awaiting the arrival of the F-22 and the F-35 :D

Actually come to think of it, we too are awaiting the F-35 :D (of course with our added Israeli avionics to it as well ;) )

Shalom :D

[citizen-k]

Just wanted to add that "sufa" means storm.

One hell of a storm I must add!

This baby is almost as sexy as the F-15!!!
(Aerospace eng...)

[SeanAshi]

"Overall" when it comes donw to it, which one is better, F-15, F-16, Mig-29?

[SwissGrenadier]

i'm convinced that the best AIRFRAME and maybe engine are those of the Sukhoi Super Flanker...but the avionics are quite primitive.
if sukhoi made a super flanker (or even a normal flanker) with these high tech israeli avionics they would probably be superior to the jsf and f 22.

[Ratamacue]

i'm convinced that the best AIRFRAME and maybe engine are those of the Sukhoi Super Flanker...but the avionics are quite primitive.
if sukhoi made a super flanker (or even a normal flanker) with these high tech israeli avionics they would probably be superior to the jsf and f 22.

Except that the Flanker isn't a stealth fighter.

Just curious here. I've heard alot of good things about the Flankers. What are the strong points to its design? I know that they're highly maneuverable, but what else?

[SwissGrenadier]

You're right Ratamacue the flankers aren't stealth...but nowadays russians have stealth technology too.for example the Mig MFI.i'm sure sukhoi could make stealth flankers.

maybe the reason for their agility is the lerx which starts in front of the cockpit.the f 18 which is the most maneuvrable US plane has exactly the same lerx as the sukhoi and the migs.the f 16,f15,f14 don't have any and are quite lame...

anyway I found a site that might interest you

http://www.royfc.com/links/acft_video_flank.html

[Basil]

Flanker good points

Big Radar aperture-means usually greater detection range, increased ability to support long range missiles
Plethora of engine upgrades, some in 30,000LB+ thrust class- thats fulll reheat though
Big airframe allows it greater rnage on internal fuel- has unrefulled range close to that of an F-111.
Lots of hard point for missiles means increased combat persistence. i.e. less likely to run of of fuel or missiles.
High end supersonic performance.

Su-30 is dual role much like an F-15E- upgarded is a dangerous bird. those are the basics.

An upgraded Flanker is still dead meat against an F-22.

There competitive against F-15's though.

[fantassin]

[quotebest AIRFRAME and maybe engine are those of the Sukhoi Super Flanker...but the avionics are quite primitive[/quote]

The Indian Air Force uses the SU 30 Mk II with Western (mostly French) avionics; it's supposed to be the best plane in the subcontinent even though, according to IAF figures, one flying hour of the SU 30 Mk II costs 4 times the price one flying hour in the IAF's Mirage 2000.

[obd]

hehe, the Su'27 and all of its variants are good aircraft,If your going up against MIG'21´s. Thay have a generally good cruising speed, a generally good cruising altitude and a good top speed or ¨speed burst¨ and they can carry a heck of alot of weapons or ¨bombs on racks¨yet.......

It is reported to have the radar signature of a house, avionics suites equivilant to what most Americans have in their kitchens these days, the heat signature of a bog fire and problems with quality control in manufacture similar to Ford cars leading to, as mentioned earlier, a high cost rate per flight hours and a very long tunraround rate when compaired to western fighters although ground crew training could have something to due with that.......

Also Russian missles, for all thier suppossed capabilities on paper, tend to fail utterly in the real world....Examples woulf be the Aphid missile and the Archer which have good capability on paper but have nowhere near the probability of kill rate as determined by real world actions and live test fires as the AMRAAM, SIDEWINDER, MICA, etc........

The Su'27 is essentially an advanced and more capable MIG'29. Also, one cannot forget that the most capable fighter in the world will be in trouble without AWACS support if the other side has it. In Bosnia and Iraq, US fighters shot hell out of enemy Mig 29 and such. In fact the only possible air to air kill by an enemy since vietnam was the POSSIBLE downing of Scott Spiecher by and Iraqi MIG 31 Foxbat...although thats never been confirmed.

the F'22 could make quick work of the Su'27 and Mig 29. Pilots of Russian fighters would not know what hit them when an AMRAAM on passive intercept linked in by AWACS suddenly turned on its active guidance about 10 seconds from impact. About the only thing they would have time to do is go BLOODY HELL and it would be game over.......

[SwissGrenadier]

fantassin, cool infos i didn't know about the french avionics.

yes the sukhois consume more fuel but they have 2 engines whereas the dassault is single engine and the su's are almost TWICE as heavy as the mirage 2000.

basil you're maybe right i didn't take the supercruise into account when i said that the sukhois would be better than the raptor.beyond visual range the raptor would beat the flanker but in a dogfight with the saturn thrust vectoring engines i really doubt it.

by the way i read once that the YF 23 was better than the YF 22. is that true?

[Basil]

SwissGrenadier
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:35 am

fantassin, cool infos i didn't know about the french avionics.
And Israeli Avionics- the Su30's being delivered around the region aren't the Russian types there in fact more advanced generally- SU30MKI especially. Python 4 integration on SU30MKI has been brought up as well. The Su30 isn't very agile at high weight, at airshow eight it can turn and burn, the huge range and fuel load gives it the ability to trade airspeed for alitude or fuel for speed.

At operational weight it's pretty agile, esp with thrust vectoring, at high weights it's been quoted as having the agility of a canberra bomber.

The Chinese Variant the SU30MKK is quite advanced but not with Russina Avionics and no TV and so isn't as capale- the SU30MKK-2 is a heavier variant with added cpability is is intended for PLAN for anti shipping work and alos for PLAAF as well. It'd make a good cruise missile carrier.

The Malay SU30 will prob have French Avonics but not Israeli as that country's current policical situation dictates it.



yes the sukhois consume more fuel but they have 2 engines whereas the dassault is single engine and the su's are almost TWICE as heavy as the mirage 2000.
Yeah the size of the aeroplane makes it's strike and cap radius absolutely huge.


basil you're maybe right i didn't take the supercruise into account when i said that the sukhois would be better than the raptor.beyond visual range the raptor would beat the flanker but in a dogfight with the saturn thrust vectoring engines i really doubt it.
Supercruise gives the F-22 a roughly 1.5 times increase in AMRAAM range, LPI radar, with NCTR, Datalink JTIDS- Link 16.

BTW F-22 has Thrust vectoring as well. - and AIM-9X is quite capable- have you seen the Aim-9X test video? To be quite honest any flanker pilot won't live to see the F-22 in the visual arean anyway if the F-22 pilot is at all smart.

BTW latest Russina radars are capable but won't pick up F-22 beyond about 7 to 10nm. R-77 radar 1 to 0.5nm. You might pick an f-22 up at 15m with long wave radar but it travels too fast and too high to engage properly- JSf is another matter though, it doesn't have the high end supersonic performance, all round RCS reduction, smaller radar, Less AMRAAMS 4 vee F-22's 6. And no TV. Against current Flankers it's capable against future Flankers with ARM variant R-77 or FPA R-77 with longwave IRST who knows.

Also against S-3000 series SAMS the JSF will wnat to hit it on the first pass , because as soon as it shows it's rear hemisphere it can expect a SAM up it's butt.


by the way i read once that the YF 23 was better than the YF 22. is that true?
YF23 has been quoted in various sources as being a significantly faster and more stealthy esp with GE powerplant that was developed for ATF program, would have been more expensive than F-22 and less manuevarable.

[Basil]

Quote OBD
hehe, the Su'27 and all of its variants are good aircraft,If your going up against MIG'21´s. Thay have a generally good cruising speed, a generally good cruising altitude and a good top speed or ¨speed burst¨ and they can carry a heck of alot of weapons or ¨bombs on racks¨yet.......
Yeah all true, they've shot down Mig-29s with them using (R-73) AA-11 Archers in the little Eriterian- Ethiopean Border war. But missed excpet for a dmage with there AA-10 Alamo variants.

The Su27 isn't so much the prblme, though there being upgraded using tech from SU30 Mk programs and Su25 program. Mainly from Chinsese funds to upgrade there older Su27SMK to a similar standard to the Russian Upgrade.


It is reported to have the radar signature of a house, avionics suites equivilant to what most Americans have in their kitchens these days, the heat signature of a bog fire and problems with quality control in manufacture similar to Ford cars leading to, as mentioned earlier, a high cost rate per flight hours and a very long tunraround rate when compaired to western fighters although ground crew training could have something to due with that.......
Radar sig of house is true, some countries are looking at sig reductio, but external weapons, those engine bays and a the general shoddy manufacturing lead to a huge RCS, you won't get anywhere near the RCS of a RAFALE or Super Hornet but they can reduce it. RCS reduction only will help a little bit- won't make a huge difference against F-22 etc.

Early Chinese Manufactured Su-27s (J-11) had to be rebuilt they were built so badly they were sent to Russia to be rebuilt, but now having bought Wetern Airfrmae Rigs etc they have better quality control than Russian ever had.

Avionics is solved by using Wetern technology for the most part- still nowhere near what the USAF has in inventory or planned but not too shabby.


Also Russian missles, for all thier suppossed capabilities on paper, tend to fail utterly in the real world....Examples woulf be the Aphid missile and the Archer which have good capability on paper but have nowhere near the probability of kill rate as determined by real world actions and live test fires as the AMRAAM, SIDEWINDER, MICA, etc........

R-73 is quite capable, easy to use, but your right the R-77 especially has not performed to the Kinematic performance expected- less than 55nm A-pole expected. There are R-77PD in dev- the ramjet version with an A pole of about 86NM which is comparable to the meteor AAM. Also in dev are ARM and Focal Plane Array Variants.


The Su'27 is essentially an advanced and more capable MIG'29. Also, one cannot forget that the most capable fighter in the world will be in trouble without AWACS support if the other side has it. In Bosnia and Iraq, US fighters shot hell out of enemy Mig 29 and such. In fact the only possible air to air kill by an enemy since vietnam was the POSSIBLE downing of Scott Spiecher by and Iraqi MIG 31 Foxbat...although thats never been confirmed.
Yeah too true, thats why the Russians have devloped no less than 3 or 4 different types of missile to be used against AWACS and they have exported some to China and India and prob Malaysia and Indon before too long. HAVCAPs of F-15s and F-22 will have to be vigilant. The KS-172 anto awacs weapon has a range of over 200nm. India and China have Awacs on order as well as Tankers in service or on order.

Spiecher was most probably shot down by the MIG-25 Foxbat after converging onto his six from a high speed overhead pass.


the F'22 could make quick work of the Su'27 and Mig 29. Pilots of Russian fighters would not know what hit them when an AMRAAM on passive intercept linked in by AWACS suddenly turned on its active guidance about 10 seconds from impact. About the only thing they would have time to do is go BLOODY HELL and it would be game over.......
Abosoultely no argument on this one, LPI radar and NCTR will aloow F-22 to ID at long range and then put an AMRAAM into them.

Problems with conventional fighter planes esp F16 and F/A-18 series- smaller radars, range and high end performance.