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StukaJr
01-09-2006, 06:32 PM
Hope, not a repost... But then, why should Geezah have all the fun? :)

This is in response to NYC's mayor statements that prohibitions of firearms in the city should extend to the NY State and then to the entire nation... Because the entire US needs to be as crime ridden as NYC and we can all use more home invasion murders that Manhattan is so known for.

Doesn't Bloomberg himself have a conceal carry permit?



Gun Control Lessons for Bloomberg

Published Moday, ,January 9, 2006, in New York Sun

By John R. Lott, Jr.*

Mayor Bloomberg wants to take New York City's gun control regulations nationwide. At his swearing in ceremony earlier this month, Mr. Bloomberg announced his top priority for the next four years: a nationwide fight across America for more gun control, from Washington, D.C., to individual statehouses.

The current push for more gun control stems from the tragic murders of two New York City police officers last year, following in the wake of two officers killed in 2003 and 2004. Mr. Bloomberg has long supported every gun regulation possible, even banning off-duty or retired police officers carrying guns near city hall. He is already pushing for tougher gun control in New York state, claiming that otherwise law-abiding New York gun-owners - who already pass all the local, state, and federal gun control regulations - are an important way his city's criminals obtain guns. Those same motivations are behind the program that he now wants to take nationwide.

Everyone wants to prevent criminals from getting guns. But the experience in other countries, even island nations that have gone so far as banning guns and where boarders are easy to monitor, should give Mr. Bloomberg and his supporters some pause. The regulations seem to have only kept law-abiding citizens from getting guns.

Not only didn’t violent crime and homicide decline as promised, but they actually increased.

-- The British government banned handguns in January 1997 but recently reported that gun crime in England and Wales nearly doubled in the seven years from 1996 to 2003. Since 1996, the rate of serious violent crime has soared by 88%, armed robberies by 101%, rapes by 105% and homicide by 24%.

-- Australia’s 1996 gun-control regulations banned many types of guns and the immediate aftermath was similar. While murder rates remained unchanged, armed robbery rates averaged 59% higher in the eight years after the law was passed (from 1997 to 2004) than in 1995.

-- The Republic of Ireland banned and confiscated all handguns and all center fire rifles in 1972, but murder rates rose fivefold by 1974 and in the 20 years after the ban has averaged 114% higher than the pre-ban rate (never falling below at least 31% higher).

-- Jamaica banned all guns in 1974, but murder rates almost doubled from 11.5 per 100,000 in 1973 to 19.5 in 1977, and soared further to 41.7 in 1980.

The two police officer murders last year in New York City had something else in common: The murders involved drugs.

Drug gangs have a lot at stake and they can’t simply call up the police when another gang encroaches on their turf, so they end up essentially setting up their own armies. (Nor can drug users call the police when someone steals their cache.) Just as gangs find ways to smuggle drugs in from Latin America and Asia, they will also find ways to smuggle in weapons to defend their turf.

Letting more law-abiding citizens own guns may actually save police lives. There are also a large number of peer-reviewed academic studies showing that letting private citizens own guns reduces violent crime, and some work finds that gun crime falls even faster than overall violent crime. Others have directly linked this reduction in crime to officer safety. Professor David Mustard in the Journal of Law and Economics specifically tested this and found that on average each additional year a state allows citizens to carry concealed handguns reduces the number of police murders by another 2%.

Even for politicians, hard facts must eventually matter. If they can’t see that gun control laws have failed to deliver as promised, it’s hard to know when facts will make a difference.

* John Lott, a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, is the author of More Guns, Less Crime (University of Chicago Press, 2000).

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/op-eds/NYSunBloomberg010906.html

Durandal
01-09-2006, 06:38 PM
John Lott nails it again...I love that guy.

Abolith
01-09-2006, 07:41 PM
I agree with the whole thing, but I woud like to see the murder rates for the current day and time not as far back as the 80's and mid 90's.

Durandal
01-09-2006, 07:48 PM
I agree with the whole thing, but I woud like to see the murder rates for the current day and time not as far back as the 80's and mid 90's.

Why? Just curious since it is hard to show trends without years of data. The more the better.

Abolith
01-09-2006, 08:18 PM
Why? Just curious since it is hard to show trends without years of data. The more the better.


I suppose I should have qalified that comment.. It is difficult to see what the long term results are without the ability to see current data. I mean it could have (in theory) had a 10-15 year spike and then settled down to below pre-ban levels (playing devils advocate here), so having the data from so many years ago is not nearly as useful as the author puts forth. At least not without current data to show the longer term trends.


Of course on the other hand I suppose damn near 25 years of data DOES show an already exsisting trend that likely wouldn't slow in the near future, and as such, current data and crime trends could be extrapolated with relative ease and precision..

kineret
01-09-2006, 08:22 PM
NYC crime-ridden? lol. when was the last time you've been to NYC? paranoid gun freak weirdo.

StukaJr
01-09-2006, 08:24 PM
The statistics in the article given, are closely matched to the prohibitions in quiestion - as far as I know, there are no recent cases of states prohibiting ownership of firearms or self defense law. Thus, the dates are old. If a prohibition makes crime jump and then lowers somewhat 20 years later, serves little comfort and possibly has little to do with prohibition in the past. I for one, pretty sure that Crimerate in DC has not lowered with the National Crime rate going down drastically.

In NYC, it's not only illegal to own guns - it's illegal to defend your life with a gun. I heard of one case, where man defended his family with a shotgun in his own home against armed burglars and is still in jail. NYC is very heavily policed - due to its high population and small square footage, it seemed like there were cops on every corner - goes to show, that cops alone are not enough to stop the crime. Civilian gun ownership is a good way to combat crime in rural and even suburban neighborhoods.

kineret
01-09-2006, 08:29 PM
NYC is not 'crime-ridden'. Its fine the way it is with its current gun laws. When was the last time you've been there or lived there?

Abolith
01-09-2006, 08:32 PM
NYC is not 'crime-ridden'. Its fine the way it is with its current gun laws. When was the last time you've been there or lived there?


"Location: Netanya, Israel"

how about you?

StukaJr
01-09-2006, 08:33 PM
NYC crime-ridden? lol. when was the last time you've been to NYC? paranoid gun freak weirdo.

I lived there '99-'02. Now there are plenty of NYC you don't want to travel to and local NJ towns make NYC look good by comparisson.

It's funny, that you live in Israel - what's the current murder rate per capita with all of them fully automatic weapons in people's custody? about 1/6th of the US's?

kineret
01-09-2006, 08:48 PM
"Location: Netanya, Israel"

how about you?


I lived in new york for 8 years, and have been there this entire past december. I know the city backwards and forwards. There is no need to change NYC gun laws and it is certainly not 'crime ridden' for a city of 10+ million. It is one of the safest cities in the world if you compare population wise. In Israel, the gun laws are much stricter than in the states. You have to be in law enforcement or in active military or living in Samaria to own and possess a weapon.

StukaJr
01-09-2006, 09:05 PM
I lived in new york for 8 years, and have been there this entire past december. I know the city backwards and forwards. There is no need to change NYC gun laws and it is certainly not 'crime ridden' for a city of 10+ million. It is one of the safest cities in the world if you compare population wise. In Israel, the gun laws are much stricter than in the states. You have to be in law enforcement or in active military or living in Samaria to own and possess a weapon.

Then you should know the number of street cops it takes to keep it the NYC that way.

How accurate is this article?

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Firearms/Data/Guns%20in%20Israel

According to this article - it's easy enough to obtain a firearm, for both posession and carry - not too sure how to take your "law enforcement or in active military" comment.

seva108
01-10-2006, 12:51 AM
In Israel, the gun laws are much stricter than in the states. You have to be in law enforcement or in active military or living in Samaria to own and possess a weapon.

This statement is wrong.

Violet Fashion by Mindy
01-10-2006, 02:31 AM
Haha.

I can show "stats" they says Australia's incidents of crime have not risen by that much.

:)

Durandal
01-10-2006, 03:56 AM
I suppose I should have qalified that comment.. It is difficult to see what the long term results are without the ability to see current data. I mean it could have (in theory) had a 10-15 year spike and then settled down to below pre-ban levels (playing devils advocate here), so having the data from so many years ago is not nearly as useful as the author puts forth. At least not without current data to show the longer term trends.


Ahhh...well, he has the data. Read "More Guns, Less Crime" a lot of his data is there.

Geezah
01-10-2006, 08:26 AM
NYC is not 'crime-ridden'. Its fine the way it is with its current gun laws. When was the last time you've been there or lived there?

If that's the case, there should be no need to impose more gun control/restrictions on the law abiding in the safe non-crime-ridden NYC!

Violet Fashion by Mindy
01-10-2006, 08:34 AM
I agree with Geezah on this.

IF and it's a big IF the social and criminal conditions of NY were considered then there is no argument from me that some BUT not all gun restrictions be relaxed a little.

Durandal
01-10-2006, 10:10 AM
If that's the case, there should be no need to impose more gun control/restrictions on the law abiding in the safe non-crime-ridden NYC!

Agreed. The city is in fact the safest large American city. According to statistics its crime rate is indeed low. Its not THE safest city but people are giving high marks...unlike Dayton, Cincinnati, and Cleveland, Ohio. Which are all in the top 25 of the crime cities.

mi35d
01-10-2006, 12:24 PM
Its not illegal to own a gun in NYC its just nearly impossible to get a pistol permit in the city proper. NY State draws a distinction between "the city" and the rest of the state. For the most part, it isn't overly difficult to get one outside of NYC - depends on the judge in the county you reside.

uhramechi
01-10-2006, 01:56 PM
about any gun control only i can remenber this:


IN THE HISTORY HAVE SHOW THAT ANY CONQUER AND ANY KING THAT IT ALLOWS TO HIS CITIZENS HAVE WEAPONS, HAVE SENTENCED THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION

This phrase was made for Hitler in 1938 when he comand or ordinace the gun control in germany

Durandal
01-10-2006, 02:41 PM
about any gun control only i can remenber this:



This phrase was made for Hitler in 1938 when he comand or ordinace the gun control in germany

Actually, the gun control policies in Germany were started before Hitler. The only gun law passed under Nazi control was The Nazi Weapons Law (or Waffengesetz) which further restricted the possession of militarily useful weapons and forbade trade in weapons without a government-issued license was passed on March 18, 1938 and a edict by Himmler (in the same year) in regards to Jews owning ANY firearms.

Most of Germany's gun control at that date was originally signed into law prior to Hitler's accession to power. Following the Treaty of Versailles the German government made extreme restrictions in gun ownership, in part ot comply with the treaty, but also to reduce rebellion after the disintegration of the Germany Army. This required almost the complete surrender of ALL firearms to the German government.

In 1928, the German Parliament enacted the Law on Firearms and Ammunition which required everyone that wanted to own a firearm to register it (like automobiles to day it was a licensing scheme and some say it was also to prevent an armed uprising...that worked well...).

The Nazi gun laws, in part, were actually a liberalization of the existing gun laws. WHile it did restrict Jews from owning guns and made certain requirements of military weapons, it opened up the laws a fair amount:

• Made the prior laws applicable ONLY to handguns
• Lowered the minimum age of ownership/purchase from 20 to 18
• Extended the 1 year permits to 3 years (which only dealt with pistols,,,no permits for rifles or shotguns for example)

As a VERY pro-gun advocate I have often times found it troubling that people use Hitler as an example of gun control. He was a horrible tyrant, but under him the gun laws were far more liberal than they are now in Europe.

Ironically, the same can be said about Iraq. Gun ownership in Iraq was prolific under Saddam. It took us invading to remove that freedom...

Odd...

uhramechi
01-10-2006, 09:22 PM
hey men thanks for the information i will check the source i read that phrase, i read long time ago maybe i confused something i dont know i will check.