The Official MP.net PDW Thread

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

I've reading a few articles on the PDW concept, and thought we needed thread where it could be discussed by people with some real world experience.

I am not one of them :) But hopefully there are some forum members who'll share there knowledge and experiences.

The PDW as a distinct concept is relatively new in the world of firearms.

A PDW or personal defense weapon is a compact firearm, smaller than an assault rifle or a full size submachine gun, but more powerful and flexible than a normal pistol. Reportedly, NATO Document AC 225 makes mention of the PDW but I couldn't find that document.

Some of the submachineguns that have appeared on this website could be considered PDWs and have been included.

Please include: MAKER / CALIBER / CYCLIC RATE / IN USE WITH (OPTIONAL)

Add any relevant pictures, specifications, opinions, comments, or personal experiences.

Prototypes that never went into production, and firearms from earlier eras (excluding sticks and stones) can be listed.

For the record, I had wanted to inlcude a PDW variant of the 1911 pistol produced by a now defunct company called AWS, but I couldn't find any information about on the Web. Any help would be greatly appreciated. The were located in the Philippines, IIRC.

Apologies if this is duplicates an exisiting thread. I actually did check.

Here a is a sampling of weapons, hopefully we'll have many additions. I've tried not to show any favoritism.

A few introductory articles:
SMALL PACKAGES, BIG BANG: Personal Defense Weapons (http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_PDW,,00.html)
SMALL PACKAGES, BIG BANG: Personal Defense Weapons (Part 2) (http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_HK,,00.html)

---------------------------------------------------------------

P90 SUBMACHINE GUN
Fabrique Nationale / 5.7 x 28 mm / 900 rpm

http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/tw_p90.htm
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg13-e.htm
http://www.defensereview.com/article441.html


MP5K Personal Defense Weapon
Heckler & Koch / 9x19mm (9mm Parabellum) / 900 rpm

http://www.hkpro.com/mp5k.htm
http://remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/pdw/pdw.htm
http://www.hkdefense.us/pages/military-le/smg/mp5/mp5k.html


MP7
Heckler & Koch / 4.6 x 30 / 950 rpm

http://www.hkpro.com/pdw


PP-2000
KBP (Russia) / 9x19mm Luger/Para / 600 rpm

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg61-e.htm
http://defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=679


MP9 Tactical Machine Pistol
Brügger & Thomet / 9x19mm Luger/Para / 900 rpm

http://www.mp9.ch/index.php?id=6
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg63-e.htm


CBJ-MS
Saab Bofors Dynamics AB / 6.5x25mm CBJ (also 9 x 19 mm Parabellum) / 575 rpm

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2000/2018.htm
http://www.personaldefenceweapons.com/SCHV_PDWs/schv_pdws.htm



UZI / Mini UZI / Micro UZI
IMI (Israel) / 9x19mm Luger/Para / 600 - 1250 rpm



http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg17-e.htm



IMI Galil Micro / Galil Micro Tactical
IMI (Israel) / 5.56x45 / 600 - 750 rpm

http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/models/ka293.html


M10 and M11
Military Armament Corp (MAC) & others / 9mm 45acp 380acp / 1100-1600 rpm

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg22-e.htm
http://www.mac10guns.com/
http://www.answers.com/topic/mac-10
http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/012001/Mac10History.htm



Skorpion VZ-61
Maker: ? / 7.65x17mm (.32ACP) in vz.61, 9x18mm Makarov in vz.82, 9x17mm (.380ACP) in vz.83 / 850 rpm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ-Scorpion
http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Subs/Skorpion.htm
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg26-e.htm



Special mention:

KRISS Super V
Transformational Defense Industries (TDI) / .45ACP / ? rpm

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_KRISS,,00.html
http://www.transformationaldefenseindustries.com/media/Kriss_MkV_Stock.mpg


M7/Caseless Sub Machine Gun
Projectile type: 5mm x 23 Caseless



Dual-wield: Yes Damage: Low Range: Close Accuracy: Low
Rate of fire: High Autofire capability: Yes Magazine capacity: 60 bullets
Ammunition (additional): 180 (3 Magazines) Reload speed: 2 s single wield, 5 s dual wield.
Melee attack: Strong due to update Scope: No


edit: fixed some pictures

[ABNINF]

M7/Caseless Sub Machine Gun
Projectile type: 5mm x 23 Caseless



Dual-wield: Yes Damage: Low Range: Close Accuracy: Low
Rate of fire: High Autofire capability: Yes Magazine capacity: 60 bullets
Ammunition (additional): 180 (3 Magazines) Reload speed: 2 s single wield, 5 s dual wield.
Melee attack: Strong due to update Scope: No

That'd be my choice;-)

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

That'd be my choice;-)

Works very well for me :)

[ogukuo72]

The term might be new, but firearms have been designed for a long time with that purpose in mind.

I thought a good PDW was the M1 Carbine.

The problem, as always, is one of design compromise, namely, what and how to compromise between all the conflicting requirements of a weapon.

The smaller a weapon is, the more difficult to control, the less accurate, and the less energy produced, the less range, etc. With the introduction of body armour, an additional requirement is thrown in - the need to defeat body armour.

Without taking into consideration soft body armour, good PDW's already exist. A Sten, for example, could easily be carried in a bag when broken up. The UZi was a good SMGs that produced a lot of firepower with relative accuracy and yet could be carried in a carry-on bag. The M10/11 and Micro-UZI compromised too much on accuracy and controllability to achieve their compact size.

The Mini-UZI and MP5K are probably the best compromises between size, accuracy, and firepower of this class, and it is not surprising that they are very popular with security forces that need concealable and accurate firepower. The Israelis used the former in the Occupied territories, while the latter was used by the British in Northern Ireland.

The modern PDW- the P90 and MP7 represented the compromises needed to defeat body armour. The heart of both systems lay in their ammunition. Bullet shape become important as the blunt tips of pistol ammunition would make poor penetrators. Projectile velocities should also be high to maximise kinetic energy.

A rifle round is best for this purpose, but an automatic weapon firing rifle rounds would have to be larger and heavier. To keep the size of the weapon down, the projectile would have to be lighter and weaker. Hence the PDW concept.

The question is, is this a good compromise? Is the 5.7mm and 4.6mm too weak to be effective in combat?

I rather think that given the requirement to penetrate body armour and yet have enough energy to cause effective tissue damage, the lowest possible level of compromise that of a rifle-calibre carbine such as the Colt Commando or the SiG M552, not the sub-calibre P90 and MP7.

[Limeyfellow]

Have there been any reports from British MPs and so on that been assigned the Mp7? I would really love an mp5k for some odd guy thing reason. If only I could convince my wife the same thing and the batf.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

The question is, is this a good compromise? Is the 5.7mm and 4.6mm too weak to be effective in combat?
I think caliber is one of the key issues in the design of a PDW. Personally, I would favor the .45 ACP, but again, I've never handled any of these weapons. Except for the M7 Caseless Sub Machine Gun.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Have there been any reports from British MPs and so on that been assigned the Mp7? I would really love an mp5k for some odd guy thing reason. If only I could convince my wife the same thing and the batf.
That's the good thing about living in the US, automotic weapons are still a possibility.

Cost (and permission from the wife) is another.

[ogukuo72]

I think caliber is one of the key issues in the design of a PDW. Personally, I would favor the .45 ACP, but again, I've never handled any of these weapons. Except for the M7 Caseless Sub Machine Gun.

I would agree that the key question is calibre. If not for the factor of body armour, the P90 and MP7 would be inferior to established designs such as the MP5K due to the weakness of their cartridges. I also don't believe that their soft armor piercing capability compensates for their weakness.

A 0.45cal weapon would have great power and controllability in a proper format. The Tommy gun had a great reputation, but was too heavy. The M10 is too small and difficult to control in 0.45cal. The UMP45 is a good compromise between the two, and I've heard good things about it, although I've never fired it before. A K version of the UMP45 might be the trick.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

I would agree that the key question is calibre. If not for the factor of body armour, the P90 and MP7 would be inferior to established designs such as the MP5K due to the weakness of their cartridges. I also don't believe that their soft armor piercing capability compensates for their weakness. I think threre is and always will be resistance to the widespread adoption of unusual or uncommon small caliber cartridges.


A 0.45cal weapon would have great power and controllability in a proper format. The Tommy gun had a great reputation, but was too heavy. The M10 is too small and difficult to control in 0.45cal.There are kits available to reduce the rate of fire on the M10, and they are being seen more frequently in subgun competitions. The reason I like the .45 ACP cartridge is that it is a known quantity.

There is PDW variant of the 1911 pistol but I couldn't find any information about on the Web. It was produced by a company in the Philippines called AWS. It was profiled in Small Arms Review, January 2006, pgs 40-48. Very controllable automatic fire when chambered in .38 Super.


The UMP45 is a good compromise between the two, and I've heard good things about it, although I've never fired it before. A K version of the UMP45 might be the trick.Hadn't heard of the UMP45. Thanks!

[D.E. Watters]

Reportedly, NATO Document AC 225 makes mention of the PDW but I couldn't find that document.

AC/225 is the Action Commitee. The PDW document is D/296.

[thatguy96]

Iver Johnson Enforcer? Diemaco C8-PDW? Ares FMG? That's just to name a few. There's a lot of current stuff and PDW history missing from this thread.

[JoaMei]

In my opinion a PDW is of that size that it can be carried like a pistol in a Holster.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Iver Johnson Enforcer? Diemaco C8-PDW? Ares FMG? That's just to name a few. There's a lot of current stuff and PDW history missing from this thread.
You're more than welcome to add a few. I did state at the beginning that I was only listing a sample.

[b33f]

I think caliber is one of the key issues in the design of a PDW. Personally, I would favor the .45 ACP, but again, I've never handled any of these weapons. Except for the M7 Caseless Sub Machine Gun.

That M7 exists only in a computer game, right? Why did you include it... together with an RPG-style description??

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

That M7 exists only in a computer game, right? Why did you include it... together with an RPG-style description??
You are quite correct. It's from Halo 2. Just a little humor. I apologize if it's a distraction.

[JoaMei]

In my opinion th FN P90 isnt a PDW, its a great tactical submachinegun but to big to carry as a sidearm. MP 7 fills the role very good, it can be fired onehanded like a pistol and when more precision is needed like a SMG.
The only comparable thing between both designs is the caliber, but they are designed for completely different roles.

[thatguy96]

I would think FN would challange that, saying that indeed the P90 was developed as a PDW. In fact it is a selling point, calling it an "ideal personal defense weapon."

Here are some other weapons that might well fall under the broad and loosely defined category of "Personal Defense Weapon."

C8A1 PDW
Diemaco/5.56x45mm/800 rpm?

Diemaco's (Colt Canada) website is currently down due to the merger with Colt.

FMG/M-21
Ares (FMG) and David Boatman (M-21)/9x19mm/500-600 rpm

FMG

M-21
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg70-e.htm

PP-90
KBP, Tula/9x18mm PM/600-800 rpm

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg10-e.htm

SR-2 Veresk
Tula/9x21mm SP-10 and SP-11/900 rpm

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg64-e.htm

Liberator and Defender
Winchester (Liberator) and Colt (Defender)/12 gauge/unknown

Liberator

http://www.guntech.com/hillberg/index.html

Super Shorty
Serbu/12 gauge/unknown

http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm

CAR-15 Model 608 Survival Rifle
Colt/5.56x45mm/800 rpm?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Commando

Mk 7 Paratrooper Pistol and Carbine
Sterling/9x19mm/same as L2 SMG?

http://securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2500/2515.htm
http://securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2500/2516.htm
http://securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2500/2517.htm
http://securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2500/2518.htm

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

In my opinion th FN P90 isnt a PDW, its a great tactical submachinegun but to big to carry as a sidearm. MP 7 fills the role very good, it can be fired onehanded like a pistol and when more precision is needed like a SMG.
The only comparable thing between both designs is the caliber, but they are designed for completely different roles.
I actually would agree, but the P90 is often referred to in print and online media a early illustration of the PDW concept. In the Gun Buyer's Annual of Special Weapons for Military and Police, the author mentions three criteria for a pdw:

1) holster carry

If the weapon is carried on a sling, sooner or later it is bound to be unslung. If it weighs more than 4 pounds, the soldier will tire of wearing it holstered

2) large-capacity magazines

Especially if a weapon is enabled with fully automatic or burst fire.

3) quickly deployable shoulder stock


Interestingly enough, this particular article doesn't mention the P90. It is titled "Quest for the Perfect PDW 2006" by Stan Crist

[JoaMei]

I actually would agree, but the P90 is often referred to in print and online media a early illustration of the PDW concept. In the Gun Buyer's Annual of Special Weapons for Military and Police, the author mentions three criteria for a pdw:

1) holster carry

If the weapon is carried on a sling, sooner or later it is bound to be unslung. If it weighs more than 4 pounds, the soldier will tire of wearing it holstered

2) large-capacity magazines

Especially if a weapon is enabled with fully automatic or burst fire.

3) quickly deployable shoulder stock


Interestingly enough, this particular article doesn't mention the P90. It is titled "Quest for the Perfect PDW 2006" by Stan Crist

The MP-7 weights just 2.86 lb when loaded with a 20 rounds Mag, according to your post its comfortable to carry in a Holster then. I see the danger that the P90 is unslung because it may be in the way doing various things, unlike the MP-7.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

The MP-7 weights just 2.86 lb when loaded with a 20 rounds Mag, according to your post its comfortable to carry in a Holster then. I see the danger that the P90 is unslung because it may be in the way doing various things, unlike the MP-7.
That's what the author of that particular article has stated.

In all fairness, isn't the MP-7 a few years younger? The P90 is in use around the world, but like you, I question whether it should really be considered a PDW

[JoaMei]

That's what the author of that particular article has stated.

In all fairness, isn't the MP-7 a few years younger? The P90 is in use around the world, but like you, I question whether it should really be considered a PDW

I think the P90 is good for CT work in CQB, but it was not intended as a PDW in the concept.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

I think the P90 is good for CT work in CQB, but it was not intended as a PDW in the concept.
Agreed, but it's often referred to as one (for some reason)

Personally, I'm starting to like the MP9.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

I would think FN would challange that, saying that indeed the P90 was developed as a PDW. In fact it is a selling point, calling it an "ideal personal defense weapon."

Here are some other weapons that might well fall under the broad and loosely defined category of "Personal Defense Weapon."

C8A1 PDW
Diemaco/5.56x45mm/800 rpm?

Diemaco's (Colt Canada) website is currently down due to the merger with Colt.

FMG/M-21
Ares (FMG) and David Boatman (M-21)/9x19mm/500-600 rpm

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg70-e.htm

PP-90
KBP, Tula/9x18mm PM/600-800 rpm

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg10-e.htm

SR-2 Veresk
Tula/9x21mm SP-10 and SP-11/900 rpm

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg64-e.htm

Liberator and Defender
Winchester (Liberator) and Colt (Defender)/12 gauge/unknown

Liberator

http://www.guntech.com/hillberg/index.html

Super Shorty
Serbu/12 gauge/unknown

http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm

Great Post! It seems that some of the pictures are not showing up. I had the same problem. I guess some sites don't like people linking to their pictures. I just googled for images of a particular weapon and eventually found pictures that worked.


Edited by A. Tack: changed some of the pic links. Hope you don't mind thatguy96 :)

[Cromdog]

Parker Hale IDW

[thatguy96]

Great Post! It seems that some of the pictures are not showing up. I had the same problem. I guess some sites don't like people linking to their pictures
The links provided should link to the pictures too, so that should be okay. It happens a lot with world.guns.ru.

[ArmyJonHall]

Have there been any reports from British MPs and so on that been assigned the Mp7? I would really love an mp5k for some odd guy thing reason. If only I could convince my wife the same thing and the batf.
You're thinking of the British Ministry of Defence Police. The MP7 is the new standard-issue weapon for them. MoD police look after nuclear power stations, guard barracks and garrisons, that sort of thing.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

The links provided should link to the pictures too, so that should be okay. It happens a lot with world.guns.ru.That's where I originally obtained the majority of my pictures

[ogukuo72]

Oh yes. I forgot about the ARES FMG. I thought it's a good design, though a tad ugly. When folded, it looks quite handy.

I would agree that the P90 is a bit too big to be a true PDW. It's more a submachine gun, although by definition, it's not.

[Limeyfellow]

[QUOTE=thatguy96]
Mk 7 Paratrooper Pistol and Carbine
Sterling/9x19mm/same as L2 SMG?


Yes its a shorterned down L2. They were used quite efficently in the Falklands War for use with the paratroopers.

[Tony Williams]

AFAIK the term 'PDW' was developed when NATO in the 1990s decided to look for a replacement cartridge for the 9x19, which would be able to penetrate standard body armour out to 200m. They drew up a specification for a new round with the aim of making it NATO-standardised. It had to be small enough to fit into a pistol.

At that time FN already had the P90 whose 5.7x28 fit the spec very well and it was thought that would be approved, but then HK came along at the last minute with the 4.6x30. Lots of comparative testing concluded that the FN cartridge was a bit better, but agreement between the NATO countries could not be reached so the idea of standardising a PDW round was dropped. Now armies just buy whatever they want...

It does surprise me that the US is apparently going to drop the 9x19 in favour of going back to the .45 ACP, which is even worse at penetrating body armour - and some of the BGs in Iraq are already starting to wear the stuff.

FWIW I've handled (but not fired) the MP7 and the P90 virtually side by side. The MP7 can be holstered which is a bonus, but when it comes to a comfortable firing position the P90 is well ahead - I was surprised by how good it felt to hold and aim, considering how awkward it looks.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[TacoDelRio]

I think I'd personally go with the MP5K. I'd even rather go with an MP5N with a collapsible stock. Longer barrel gives you better ballistics.


Thing is if I need to defend myself with a subgun, I must be doing something awefully cool, or awefully stupid, or both. That means I'll probably travel. 9x19mm ammo is available everywhere, and I may end up going anywhere. That's my choice.

Plus it's reliable, and the Pakistani's make parts for them, so I could even find extra parts overseas if needed.

EDIT: I noticed that I did not cover concealment. I guess I'd be kinda out of luck with that. Dissasemble it and carry a sidearm?

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

AFAIK the term 'PDW' was developed when NATO in the 1990s decided to look for a replacement cartridge for the 9x19, which would be able to penetrate standard body armour out to 200m. They drew up a specification for a new round with the aim of making it NATO-standardised. It had to be small enough to fit into a pistol.

From what I've read there exists 9mm ammo that will defeat Kevlar. The M39B in use with the Swedish Army and the 7N31 used by the Russians in the PP-2000 which has a steel core. Reportedly the 7N31 is +P cartridge that fires the 9mm projectile at 1967 fps.




It does surprise me that the US is apparently going to drop the 9x19 in favour of going back to the .45 ACP, which is even worse at penetrating body armour - and some of the BGs in Iraq are already starting to wear the stuff.


Isn't the reason for using .45 ACP is that it has a high chance of incapacitation? (against unarmored adversaries)
There seems to be some concern about the ability of the 4.6 x 30 (MP7) and 5.7 x 28 (P90) ammo to cause wounding sufficient to incapacitate.

What about a sabot cartridge for the .45? Something that would permit the use of normal .45 ammo and an armor piercing sabot interchangeably. The 6.5 x 25 mm CBJ cartridge has a tungsten insert held in a plastic sabot.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

SCAMP
Colt / .22 Scamp (5.56 x 29 mm) /1200n - 1500 rpm (3 rd burst)

http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Subs/Colt_SCAMP.htm

[TacoDelRio]

SCAMP
Colt / .22 Scamp (5.56 x 29 mm) /1200n - 1500 rpm (3 rd burst)

http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Subs/Colt_SCAMP.htm

Suprised you found that.

I guess you'd be forced to shoot the armor wearing bastard in the head or from an angle, or just shoot him with a rifle.

[ogukuo72]

I think I'd personally go with the MP5K. I'd even rather go with an MP5N with a collapsible stock. Longer barrel gives you better ballistics.

I noticed that I did not cover concealment. Dissasemble it and carry a sidearm?

There's a shoulder harness designed for the MP5 series that would allow you to carry a MP5 under your right arm. There's a picture in the book "The Operators" (James Rennie; Pen & Sword: 2004) where a female operator demonstrated how an MP5K could be concealed under a normal dress jacket.

The Norwegian security services also developed a harness that allowed a full-sized MP5 fitted with a butt-cap instead of a telescopic butt to be carried under the arm, although this would require a slightly taller person with a longer jacket.

With the fashion nowadays of carrying haversacks and messanger bags, it should be quite easy to conceal these weapons, as the MP5K and UZI series could fit into most conventional sized bags.

The squat shape of the P90 would make it rather more difficult to conceal in conventional bags such as brief-cases and haver-sacks. I've seen P90's being concealed in a tennis-racket carrier and an over-sized messanger sling bag. Great for casual settings, but rather out of place in more formal environments.

[TacoDelRio]

EAGLE makes that shoulder holster. It would be a nice way to carry the MP5K around.

I didn't know operators even used guns. I thought they just dialed phones! (Work in the gun industry for awhile, and the words "Tactical" and "Operator" start to drive you insane!)

I'm pretty tall, and having only handled MP5's (too poor to shoot :() on many occasions, I'd say carrying a full size MP5 with collapsible stock would be simple, but obviously uncomfortable when around lots of people.

Either way. Works for me. I think.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Suprised you found that.

I guess you'd be forced to shoot the armor wearing bastard in the head or from an angle, or just shoot him with a rifle.
I was just wondering if the SCAMP could be adapted to fire the Hornady .17 Mach 2 (.17M2) It leaves the barrel at 2100 fps. I wonder how effective that would be against body armor. Only a 17 grain projectile though.


http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/17M2/


Perhaps the .17 HMR would be a better caliber for use in a PDW

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/17_hmr_0508/

17 grain, 2550 fps. Muzzle energy is 245 ft. lbs


edit: added .17 HMR info

[Katana-sr]

90% of the weapons posted here aren't even PDWs in my opinion.

The Scamp is one - non-pistol caliber, pistol-like size and useable with a single hand.
There is also the G11 PDW if we consider the "old" generation of PDWs, very similiar to the Scamp in appearance, but based on the G11 and a caseless weapon.

The MP7 is designed as a PDW and definitely meets my definition of this weapon type, but I'm not so sure about the P90. While the P90 has the right caliber and effective range, it does not seem to be designed with one-handed use in mind very much. It's more of a submachine gun than a PDW.

A PDW in pistol caliber just isn't one - it lacks the armor piercing capability of PDWs and often also effective range.

just my thoughts on this...

personally, I think the MP7 is the most suitable PDW currently available, the only negative aspect is the low magazine capacity, which can only be avoided by loading the weapon with a 20 round mag initially (to keep the weapon small in size) and keep 40 rounds mags around for reloads.

[ogukuo72]

I didn't know operators even used guns. I thought they just dialed phones!

I know!:) The time I read the book was the first time I came across the term "Operator".

I've came across a discussion of the the Hornandy .17cal at tacticalforums.com. One of those who posted cautioned that the .17cal round should not be confused with the 4.6mm or the 5.7mm, as its plastic tip is not truly armor piercing. It is solely intended as a vermint round (whatever that is.)

Another thought: I would suppose PDW's are meant solely for defence against humans wearing soft armor. I mean, if I'm an aircrew and bailed out over bear or lion country, what I would want to be carrying with me isn't a 4.6mm or 5.7mm automatic weapon, but a 0.44cal revolver!

[TacoDelRio]

Varmints blow up when you hit them with .17HMR's. Humans are bigger. I would not ever use one for self defense. I've seen all the marketting, sold probably a hundred guns in that caliber, and no, not a good self defense caliber. Or at least I refuse to be the guniea pig that dies holding one.

Just gimme the MP5N with hydrashocks. I'll have a decent sized smile on my face until I **** my pants. Maybe I'll live to change my undies.

[UNDERDOG1]

How about that PDW?

It's mine: oly 7inches AR15, flattop, railed gasblock (I'm waiting for a flipup front sight), ARMS rear sight, CRANE stock.

Fits easily into a laptop case.

[TacoDelRio]

Now we gotta ask what the definition of a PDW is.

I'd take a POW, or Personal Offensive Weapon. :)

Intersting setup. Is that a Bushmaster-ized magazine you got there?

[UNDERDOG1]

20rd magazines, they are the only approved for that gun in Italy; BTW is the highest capacity ar in Italy.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Heckler und Koch MP7

[TuNeRsHaRk]

Tmp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BiZ]

You're thinking of the British Ministry of Defence Police. The MP7 is the new standard-issue weapon for them. MoD police look after nuclear power stations, guard barracks and garrisons, that sort of thing.

[/URL]

[url]http://www.mod.uk/dpa/news/pn2005/mar05/mdp.htm (http://imageshack.us)

I was under the impression that nuclear facilities were the responsibility of the Civil Nuclear Constabulary (replacing United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority Constabulary in 2005).

The MoD Police can be asked to assist any other Police Force in the UK, and they are responsible for the security of nuclear materials in transit, but not nuclear power stations as such....

[Icarus1]

My kind of PDW :)


Caliber: 5.56x45mm / .223 Rem.
Lenght overall: 730mm / 28.7"
Lenght with butt stowed: 504mm / 19.8"
Barrel lenght: 226mm / 8.9"
Weight: 3.2kg / 7lbs
Muzzle Energy: 1100J
Cyclic rate: approx. 720 rds/min

[UNDERDOG1]

Wholeheartedly agree with Icarus, the sig above is the finest PDW, it comprises the best features in weapon design today, the reliability of the AK system, best sights in industry, a barrel that is match-grade as it left the factory, an unsurpassed finish level, and so on...

Sig 552 is the best assault weapon in the world, as today..

[Icarus1]

Wholeheartedly agree with Icarus, the sig above is the finest PDW, it comprises the best features in weapon design today, the reliability of the AK system, best sights in industry, a barrel that is match-grade as it left the factory, an unsurpassed finish level, and so on...

Sig 552 is the best assault weapon in the world, as today..

Thanks for the flowers mate, but the finest assault rifle of the SIG series would be the 551 SWAT. From my experience. The 552 has in fact less power than the 551, but the size is great. The different made bolt system with the spring is a little bit more difficult than the normal bolt system of the SIG 550 family. I had a little bit more problems (but still very few) with it, than with the 551 or 550.

It's a great weapon, one small devil with some power for the size, but i don't want to start a discussion abou the "best" assault rifle here.

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

heres a few pics of the sa80a2 carbine thats due to come into service for afv crews.

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

sorry the bottom one is an a1 version,but this will only go into production in the a2 variant.

[DeathForSale]

I've handled and fired the Skorpion during my VSCG service. It is quite a nice little piece.

[thatguy96]

heres a few pics of the sa80a2 carbine thats due to come into service for afv crews.




If anyone's interested, the SA80A2K (as HK calls it) has been designated L22A1 by the British Army.

[DeathForSale]

Any more pics of the Czech Skorpion? It would be much appreciated.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Any more pics of the Czech Skorpion? It would be much appreciated.
Found a few:

[DeathForSale]

The one in the middle looks pretty nice. Thanks bro! Check you rep.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

I've handled and fired the Skorpion during my VSCG service. It is quite a nice little piece.
Any experiences you can share?

[Royal]

You're thinking of the British Ministry of Defence Police. The MP7 is the new standard-issue weapon for them. MoD police look after nuclear power stations, guard barracks and garrisons, that sort of thing.

Actually the MP7 is in service with a number of UK military units that I can think of.

[Icarus1]

Any experiences you can share?

I had a few problems with the strange charging handle of the Scorpion. When it's wet or cold it doesn't get that easy. Also the empty cases ejecting to the top is not so good. But it's a very relaible weapon and very small and light.

[ond26]

Any more pics of the Czech Skorpion? It would be much appreciated.

[Impulse_t0]

How's this for a PDW:

[TacoDelRio]

Wow... just wow.

Tits on a pig.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

M950/M960 Tactical Machine Pistol
Calico Light Weapon Systems / 9x19mm Luger/Para / 750 rpm

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg57-e.htm

Also came in .22LR (Models 100, 105 and 110)

Calico M100 .22LR (5.6mm rimfire) pistol with 100 rounds magazine

[DizBukHaPeter]

HK53 is a good PDW, I like the idea of an rifle crtridge in a sub gun package.

[DeathForSale]

Any experiences you can share?
Like I've said, I did get the oppurtunity to handle one while I was in my mandatory military service in the VSCG. Our unit was paid a visit by an Serbian CT unit called the Kobra's. They had several modified Skorpion to handle and fire. It is an light and handy weapon to carry and has quite decent accuracy out at the 15-20 yard we where shooting it at. Like has been said, the charging handling can be a bit awkward and the round maybe a bit under powered but overall it is a very nice and handy weapon.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Like I've said, I did get the oppurtunity to handle one while I was in my mandatory military service in the VSCG. Our unit was paid a visit by an Serbian CT unit called the Kobra's. They had several modified Skorpion to handle and fire. It is an light and handy weapon to carry and has quite decent accuracy out at the 15-20 yard we where shooting it at. Like has been said, the charging handling can be a bit awkward and the round maybe a bit under powered but overall it is a very nice and handy weapon.
Excellent post! Great to hear from people who have actually handled weapons like this.

I'm a little surprised no one has posed this one yet:

Glock 18
Glock / 9x19mm / 1300 rpm


http://remtek.com/arms/glock/model/9/18/
http://www.cybershooters.org/dgca/prod01.htm
http://www.glock.com/g18.htm

[DeathForSale]

I own an Glock. I assume that is the Glock 18C? I've heard that the rate of fire is so high, the magazine is empty after 1.5-2 seconds of fully automatic fire. Same thing with the Mac-10/11 series so beloved in hip-hop music.

[TacoDelRio]

I own an Glock. I assume that is the Glock 18C? I've heard that the rate of fire is so high, the magazine is empty after 1.5-2 seconds of fully automatic fire. Same thing with the Mac-10/11 series so beloved in hip-hop music.

Just get the magazines that they had in the Matrix and other movies. Must be some 400rd mags to shoot for that long.

[DeathForSale]

So it's even shorter? I don't know I have never fired one. I just heard that.

[TacoDelRio]

Nah it's a joke. :)

I've seen people shoot G18C's, and you can empty a mag pretty damn quick as you said. If you want to hit multiple targets, you obviously just gotta put short bursts into them. I've never fired any full-auto pistols before, so I havbe no idea how difficult that may be.

There are really-high-capacity (RHC) mags for G17/G17L/G18C/G19/G24 9mm Luger Glocks that have some 33rd capacity on them. That might last you a bit longer! Sticks out alot obviously, like a friggin' monopod, but I guess it's more of a take-it-shooting-for-sh1ts-and-giggles kinda thing.

[Juusto]

Let's not forget this one:

JaTiMatic 9mm / 660 rds/min



Finnish made sub-machine gun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jatimatic_GG-95_SMG_PDW



Accepted by Cobra, so it has to be good :)

[Hydro]

Actually the MP7 is in service with a number of UK military units that I can think of.

Any more info available, or is it a more hush hush matter?

[ogukuo72]

These were posted some time back. Chinese 5.8mm PDW.

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

Any more info available, or is it a more hush hush matter?

i think its just in service with the mod plod (mod police) unless hereford have some its not in service with any line units.

[Royal]

i think its just in service with the mod plod (mod police) unless hereford have some its not in service with any line units.

No. I can think of 4 units that definitely have them (though none are what you would describe as 'line').

[Major Maxillary]

I'll take an M2 carbine over the others anyday.

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

No. I can think of 4 units that definitely have them (though none are what you would describe as 'line').

can you enlighten us then?
the sas? the special recce regiment? sbs? rmp cp teams?

[Royal]

Don't know about the monkeys, but they may do.

Keep guessing ;)

[BiZ]

Don't know about the monkeys, but they may do.

Keep guessing ;)

It's the Pay Corps isn't it Royal? .....cheeky buggers won't take anymore crap next time they **** up your pay and you complain....

[RS_Leo1A5]

Personally, I'm starting to like the MP9.
The MP9 was originally called Steyr TMP before Steyr sold it to B&T.

[TacoDelRio]

The MP9 was originally called Steyr TMP before Steyr sold it to B&T.

I'd like the MP9 too, over a TMP/SPP. Mainly because of the shoulder stock.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

The MP9 was originally called Steyr TMP before Steyr sold it to B&T.
I had read something similar in Special Weapons For Military and Police #40. I was just thinking that with effective 9 mm ammo (Swedish M39B and Russian 7N31), sounds like it'd be an excellent weapon.

[thatguy96]

I'd like the MP9 too, over a TMP/SPP. Mainly because of the shoulder stock.
Steyr had a shoulder stock for the TMP. When the design got sold to B&T they simply chucked in favor of one of their own.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

More general information:
http://www.personaldefenceweapons.com/similar_weapons/machine_pistols/machine_pistols.htm
Interesting page, beware of popups though:
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pdw.html

More on the PARKER-HALE IDW mentioned earlier in this thread


PARKER-HALE / 9mm / 400 rpm

http://www.parker-hale.com/specdev.htm

From their website:

IDW Special Characteristics

· A concealable true 'Briefcase' 9mm SMG that can deliver on full automatic fire, a continuous burst into a figure target at 25 metres.

· A carbine size weapon (with 10in. barrel, shoulder stock and bi-pod), capable of delivering on full automatic fire, a continuous 32 round burst into a 12in. circle at 25 metres.

· A light support type weapon (with 10in. barrel, shoulder stock and bi-pod) that can deliver, on full automatic fire, a continuous burst into a 6in. circle at 25 metres - 75% of which will be within a 4in. circle.

· In semi-automatic mode, half inch groups are possible at 25 metres using only a red dot sight.

[BiZ]

[/URL]

(http://imageshack.us)

[URL=http://imageshack.us]

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

VP70
Heckler & Koch / 9x19mm Parabellum / 2200 rpm (three-round burst)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_VP70


BIZON
IZHMASH / 9x18mm PM and PMM; 7,62x25mm Tokarev; 9x19mm Luger/Parabellum / 600 - 700 rpm

http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/smg/bizon.html
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg08-e.htm
http://club.guns.ru/eng/bizon.html


PP-90M1
KBP (Russia) / 9x19mm 7N21 and 7N31 / 500 rpm

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg59-e.htm


GEPARD PDW
700 RPM

Multi Caliber:
9 X 18mm Makarow Standard
9 X 18mm Makarow "High Impulse"
9 X 19mm PARA
9 X 19mm RG057 AP
9 X 21mm RG052
9 X 21mm RG054 HIAP (High Impulse Armor Piercing)
9 X 21mm RUSSIAN
9 X 30mm "GROM" HIAP (High Impulse Armor Piercing)
http://www.greendevils.pl/technika_wojskowa/bron/gepard/gepard.html
(in Polish, I think)


SCH-21
GORDA STATE ARSENAL (Georgia) / 9x19mm-Parabellum / 700 rpm
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=259
http://securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2800/2868.htm


Tuma MTE VA Personal Defence Weapon
MTE (Switzerland) / LUVO (Czech Republic) / 224-BOZ cartridge / 970 RPM

http://securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/1600/1626.htm
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/juni0r/armystuf.html


Information on the 10 mm / 224-Boz Cartridge:
http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm01.html


Interesting reading:
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/juni0r/armystuf.html
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&new_topic=2