Interview with Mr Hyry (Finnish soldier in World War Two) [Archive]

mustamato

02-19-2004, 07:21 PM

A yeah. The battle of Tali-Ihantala. 150.000 Soviet troops vs. 50.000 finns,
larger than El-Alamein and the result was more or less a draw. That´s the
short version of it. The result in a wider scale was that Stalin didn´t want to
send more re-inforcements to the finnish front since those were needed in the
"chase for Berlin" better. So practically, the finns can thank much of their
independence for brave men like Mr Hyry.

Some pictures from the battle at Tali-Ihantala (largest fought in Nordic countries):

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Kartat/44EtulinjanJoukotMolemmillaPuolilla.jpg
Concentration of troops on Soviet and Finnish
side in spring 1944. The soviet large offensive
was started in the south (west of the lake Ladoga).
Note that the Soviets had 5 Armies at the finnish
front, this says little about the importance from
a german perspective to keep the finnish front
"alive" so that they would not be sent south against
them instead?

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/440609KatjushaRaketti.jpg
Soviets firing rocket artillery, "Katyusha". The Soviets started the attack
with 30 Divisions, and about 2000 planes. The artillery fire during the first
days was one of the most intense in history (if not the most intense).

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4406JosefStalin-TankkiKannaksella.jpg
Several of the Soviet divisions were elite divisions with so new equipment
that the finnish soldiers didn´t even know what they were. As this one that the finns
called "Klim" after the Klimov-series. It´s a Josef Stalin 2 however. Even by modern
standard it has a very respectable gun, 122 mm!

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4407KannasPanssarinyrkkiAmpumavalmiina.jpg
Soviet SU-152 in the Panzerfaust sight, (very probably a staged photo taken
afterwards a memory of the SU-152 was knocked out)

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4407KannasPanssarikauhuAsemissa.jpg
German-made Panzerschreck (Panssarikauhu in finnish), the germans supplying
these weapons to the finns was very important due to the heavy armour the Soviets
were using that couldn´t be taken out with the small-calibre anti-tank guns

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4406PE2Koneita.jpg
Soviet Petliakov fighter/bomber. Sometimes the Soviet could fly in formations
of 200 planes against the finnish positions. The finnish Air Force had its hands
full and could not provide much help for the ground-troops

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4406KannasPoteronPohjallaViipurinL%E4hell%E4.jpg
Finnish soldier armed with his SMG Suomi KP31 (with 50 round magazine)

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4406Rynn%E4kk%F6tankkiSaaT%E4ydennyst%E4.jpg
German-supplied "Sturmi" receiving ammunition

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4407KannasVuosalmiPST-tykinSiirtoa.jpg
Moving captured 45 mm anti-tank gun to new position

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4407Poraj%E4rviTalotPalava.jpg
Finns burning villages (scorched earth)

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4406VihollisenTulikeskitys.jpg
"After artillery barrage comes the attack, be ready..."

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4407LaatokanKarjalaVen%E4l%E4istenHy%F6kk%E4ysKuva.jpg
Soviet soldiers attacking

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4407Tali-Ihantala.jpg
Probably the most famous of the Tali-Ihantala pictures

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4409ViipuriAselevonHetki.jpg
Stalin didn´t send any more re-inforcments, the offensive had been stopped
and there was a armistice signed. Soviet and finnish soldiers exchanging remembrances

Hm, well there are some not from the battle, but all are from 1944 and the Soviet offensive then.

Jack Mehoff

02-19-2004, 07:28 PM

Nice name Maine Finn!

Maine Finn

02-19-2004, 08:16 PM

Why thank you!

By the way, I figured it out. Here's what I originally intended to post:

http://www.warlinks.com/memories/images/korsu.jpg

This is a front-line dugout. It consisted of a timber frame sunk in the ground and covered by a layer of logs, then waterproofing, sand padding and more logs. To make the structure withstand a direct artillery or mortar shell hit, the topmost layer comprised of biggish stones. This particular dugout seems to be quite low. The probable reason is that to avoid ground water or due to the omnipresent bedrock it could not be dug deeper. It is quite dark, too, because windows would have provided a path not only to light but to enemy shells.
Dozens of thousands of Finnish soldiers lived in this kind of billets from late 1941 to June 1944.

http://www.warlinks.com/memories/images/suoja.jpg

Scene from a trench in Liipua (Rautu), Carelian Ishtmus, in June 1944. The men are set for a counterattack. The SMG gunner is waiting for the moment the last shell of the artillery preparation explodes, then he shall step forward and start rolling the trench that the enemy has taken. The man behind him is going to throw hand grenades behind every "elbow" of the trench as they proceed. The machine gun being held by the third soldier in the rear is a captured Maxim-Sokolov m/1910 (recognisable by the fluted water jacket).

http://www.warlinks.com/memories/images/uffz.jpg

Three infantry officers in July 1944. To the left, a Major with a lightweight captured PPS SMG (7,62mm). In the middle Lt. Lauri Torni (later Larry Thorn, U.S. Army). They are wearing the standard gray model 1936 uniform. The lieutenants are armed with the Suomi SMG Mod. 1931 (9mm)

And a little bit about Lauri Torni:

Captain Larry Thorne

U.S. Army Special Forces:

The Green Berets

Then there was Larry Thorne, one of Special Forces' more illustrious soldiers. He entered the Finnish Army in 1938. About a year later, he began a six-year period of continuous combat against the Soviets during World War II After various assignments with frontline infantry units, he volunteered for commando activities behind the Soviet lines. Lieutenant Thorne's most daring exploits began in 1942 as he conducted numerous deep penetration missions. On one, he personally led a small group of men behind Soviet lines, ambushing and destroying a Soviet convoy, killing over 300 of the enemy, and returning without a single casualty.

In June 1944, Thorne's unit was employed in the frontline role as the last reserve available. They conducted a counter-attack against the spearhead of an attempted enemy breakthrough operation. This action occurred only a few hours after his unit had returned from a mission behind Soviet lines. The commander of the particular sector described CPT Thorne's boldness during the attack, "My plan was to provide CPT Thorne with some artillery and mortar support which probably would have delayed the start of his counter-attack about an hour. However, CPT Thorne's plan was to attack immediately, before the Soviets had a chance to dig in. CPT Thorne counter-attacked in daylight through dense forest surprising the Soviets and resulting not only in destruction of a Soviet battalion, but also in saving the desperate situation."

CPT Thorne repeatedly exposed himself to extreme hazards; his leadership and heroism made him a national hero in Finland and earned him the Mannerheim Cross, Finland's highest military award, (equivalent to our Medal of Honor) in July 1944.

CPT Thorne joined the American Army after WWII, volunteered for Special Forces duty and was assigned to the 77th SFG and later transferred to the 10th Group. He received a direct commission as a 1LT in the Signal Corps. He was a HALO parachutist, SCUBA diver, mountaineer and skier. In 1962, as a CPT he led his Special Forces Detachment onto the highest mountain in Iran to recover the bodies of an American Army air crew lost in a plane crash, and secure the classified material they transported. After unsuccessful attempts by others, his detachment's success was largely attributed to CPT Thorne's superb leadership. He volunteered twice for Vietnam. On 18 October 1965, on his second tour with the Studies and Observations Group (SOG), he was declared Missing In Action.

Russian Texan

02-20-2004, 12:58 AM

Several of the Soviet divisions were elite divisions

How do you define "elite divisions"? Division numbers would be helpful also, thank you.

Uninen

02-20-2004, 06:39 AM

How do you define "elite divisions"?

Those "Elite" divisions were those Guards Divisions that had liberated the Leningrad from Germans..

I think they count as Elite.. ;)

(These were about the best units that USSR had in the whole war, and we beated them back with bloody nose.. :) )

Soviet units: (in Karelian isthamus..)

21. Army
- 108. Army corps.
- 109. Army corps.
- 30. Guards Army corps.

23. Army (Guards)
- 98. Army corps.
- 30. Guards Army corps.
- 97. Army corps.
- 115. Army corps.

(these were the units that started the 11th? Great Soviet offensive of the war..)

NOTE: My list is nowhere near complete, but gices a hint.. ;)

mustamato

02-20-2004, 08:18 AM

Several of the Soviet divisions were elite divisions

How do you define "elite divisions"? Division numbers would be helpful also, thank you.

Why do you doubt that they were elite divisions? Moscow counted with a total
breakthrough and being in Helsinki within weeks. What do you think the parade
troops would have consisted of, cooks and dishwashers? Hardly, it would have
been the Guards divisions (amongst others of course).

More detailed info about the Soviet summer offensive against Finland 1944

The commander on the Soviet side for the offensive was armygeneral
Leonid Govorov (marshal 17th of june 1944). His "ironfist" was the 21th
Army (lieutenantgeneral Dmitrij Gusev) that attacked in the "middle" with
15 divisions. 23th Army (lieutenantgeneral A. Tsjerepanov) attacked in the
east isthmus with 6 divisions. With reserves only the Leningradfront
of the offensive counted 24 divisions. 2 artillery divisions, a artillery brigade,
5 armoured brigades, 8 armour regiments, 8 assaultgun regiments and one
sapper brigade. To this the 21th Army could count on heavy support from
Kronstadts coastal artillery, more than 100 heavy guns. And now some pics
I scanned:

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/genombrottet.jpg
Soviet break-through, the first day began 5:55 when 215 bombers and 135
attackplanes attacked finnish positions. Then artillery, 5500 guns and mortars
of atleast 76 mm calibre. 881 mortars and 175 guns from the Baltic navy with calibres
of 130 to 406 mm, only the first five minutes more than 17000 grenades were fired
against finnish positions. The detonations could be heard as a thunder in Mikkeli,
the finnish HQ several hundred kilometers away.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/Tali-Ihantala_fas_1.jpg
Phase 1 of the Tali-Ihantala battle, and you see "Ga" is of course Guards. D is division and AK is of course Army Corps.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/Tali-Ihantala_fas_2.jpg
Phase 2

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/Tali-Ihantala_fas_3.jpg
Phase 3, Red Army launches massive attacks, but the finnish defence holds.

Losses in Tali-Ihantala: The finns lost about 8800 men in Tali-Ihantala, the Red
Army lost about 22000. This area of Tali-Ihantala is actually one of the
most metalrich areas in Europe today. And the russians (in a typically
respectfull way) buried there dead in huge unmarked massgraves.

And some pics I scanned:

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/chockskadad.jpg
Not that surprisingly the initial Soviet bombardment took its toll on some
soldiers, here a shellshocked soldiers gets help

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/antitank.jpg
Soviet T-34(?) destroyed

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/kallerask.jpg
Armoured divisions Toivo Ilomäki that destroyed 16 Soviet tanks, 14 T-
34´s and 2 IS-2´s. Loader was Kalle Rask. Ilomäki became a Mannerheim knight.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/talistigrar.jpg
Two "tigers" from JR 13. Corpral Paul Renvall and Master Sergeant Kurt Engman,
Renvall killed one tank and Engman 4 in the 2nd batallions fighting at Tali.

Russian Texan

02-20-2004, 08:51 AM

I think they count as Elite..

were needed in the
"chase for Berlin"

You guys contradict yourselves: If Finland was not a priority, then why did Stalin commit its "elite", according to you, troops for the attack?
Don't you think if
chase for Berlin was his goal, he'd much rather use those troops in that direction?

Soviet army did not have "elite" divisions, the only troops that were considered elite/crack were sailors but there was no separate divisions formed out of them.

mustamato

02-20-2004, 09:03 AM

Oh my God are you blind? DO YOU SEE THE PICTURES? And you
don´t consider the Guards divisions to be elite? :roll:

The Soviet plans was that the finns would more or less capitulate
immediately without any resistance, hence the large numbers of Guards
divisions during the offensive. They would then be sent to Berlin. What
is the contradiction? You can see on the pictures that the finnish front kept
5 Soviet Armies tied up in the north. You don´t see any reason at
all why Finland should be defeated immediately. Why do you think that D-
day in west and the Soviet summer offensive against Finland came at the
same time? And you don´t think that 5 more Armies sent against Germany
would have shortened the war considerably? The reason to why Finland lost its
priority that sure as hell was 1 during the D-day was because Govorov couldn´t
hold the schedule and the huge losses (100.000+) that Stalin felt could be better
used in the chase for Berlin. According to the schedule Helsinki would be filled with
Red Army troops within 2 weeks and the losses during the offensive would be
maximum 10.000. Simply, it didn´t work out as planned.

You are pissing on your fallen countrymen and disrespect them just because
you don´t agree with two persons on a Internet forum, don´t you have any
shame in your body? What the fokk is wrong with you?

Russian Texan

02-20-2004, 09:17 AM

Mustamato I think that you are legaly delusional...

mustamato

02-20-2004, 09:19 AM

Mustamato I think that you are legaly delusional...

And you don´t feel a need to actually comment the other things I wrote?
By the way, are you not a jew?

Uninen

02-20-2004, 09:35 AM

mustamato

02-20-2004, 09:50 AM

Soviet army did not have "elite" divisions, the only troops that were considered elite/crack were sailors but there was no separate divisions formed out of them.

:roll: There was also Naval infranty units (Brigades) in action against Finns in 1944.. they actually made large scale landings on north shores of Lake Ladoga..

Oh and.. Guard Units were Crack/Elite. They also had better equipment that normal units.. :petting:

Yeah. Haha, this really shows how little (nothing) he knows about the northern
front. One of the successfull Soviet attacks during the offensive, the landing took
the finnish defence by surprise when they got the reports of having a whole
brigade in the back of 15th Brigade and 5th Division. 70th Marine Infantry Brigade
landed 5:30 23.6.44, with 3600 men, almost all of them armed with automatic
weapons (except snipers with scoped Mosin-Nagants etc). Except that one of the
58 landingships was attacked and sunked by the FAF they could do it without
being disturbed. Because of this the finnish forces had to retreat to not have the
Marines in the back, which could have been quite fatal. Luckily the retreat went smoothly
because of new roads built and so forth.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/marininfanteri.bmp
Up in the left corner

Uninen

02-20-2004, 10:13 AM

Also:

Finns quickly builded up this "Taistelu osasto" (Task group or battle group) that quite succesfully limited the 70. Naval infranty Brigades success..

(If i remember correctly, the force was something like 3000 troops of all sorts.. Finnish Taistelu osasto that is..)

This Taistelu osasto was made out of 2nd line troops.. like coastal gunners and supply troops.. and they managed to hold the 70. Naval infranty Brigade long enough to make it safe for main forces to pull back safely..

And like the mustamato's posted pic shows, the 70. Naval infranty Brigade was only succesful in cutting that one coastal road, their mission and objectives failed as their mission was to cut out all escape routes.. and their landings were supported by naval vessels and by Air Forces of "Red Banner" of Baltic "fleet".. :P

Russian Texan

02-20-2004, 12:31 PM

And you don´t feel a need to actually comment the other things I wrote?

No not really...

Russian Texan

02-20-2004, 12:36 PM

:roll: There was also Naval infranty units (Brigades) in action against Finns in 1944.. they actually made large scale landings on north shores of Lake Ladoga..

You do realise that there is a difference between a "brigade" and a "division"?
So again, tell me the number of "naval elite" divisions that participated in the assault on Finland.

Sorry to dissapoint you guys but Finland wasn't a priority, I know that you wan't to be importand and matter but Germany was the one, trust me...

RomanS

02-20-2004, 12:45 PM

Correct,

be it Stalin's number 1 priority, all the Fins would be speaking Russian now.

mustamato

02-20-2004, 12:49 PM

You do realise that there is a difference between a "brigade" and a "division"?

And you do realize that 1944 the Soviet divisions had a strength of about
5500-6500 men? In comparison a finnish brigade had 7900. You simply don´t
know ****.

Sorry to dissapoint you guys but Finland wasn't a priority, I know that you wan't to be importand and matter but Germany was the one, trust me...

Wasn´t it pretty much the same thing since Finand and Germany was brothers
in arms? Especially considered that Germany had soldiers in Finland, more than
200.000 of them. So if Finland was not a priority then those 200.000 germans
could have been sent home for the defence of the motherland, and several
Soviet Armies could have been sent to attack the germans motherland. But they
were not.

Correct,

be it Stalin's number 1 priority, all the Fins would be speaking Russian now.

Read all the posts in the thread Permskiii.

RomanS

02-20-2004, 12:51 PM

You do realise that there is a difference between a "brigade" and a "division"?

And you do realize that 1944 the Soviet divisions had a strength of about
5500-6500 men? In comparison a finnish brigade had 7900. You simply don´t
know ****.

Sorry to dissapoint you guys but Finland wasn't a priority, I know that you wan't to be importand and matter but Germany was the one, trust me...

Wasn´t it pretty much the same thing since Finand and Germany was brothers
in arms? Especially considered that Germany had soldiers in Finland, more than
200.000 of them. So if Finland was not a priority then those 200.000 germans
could have been sent home for the defence of the motherland, and several
Soviet Armies could have been sent to attack the germans motherland. But they
were not.

You do know a lot. I keep forgeting you lived back than, and participated with the finns.

Mustomato didnt read no propagandish history books written by Finns, all his information from personal accounts in 1944.

Much respect Musta

mustamato

02-20-2004, 12:54 PM

Much respect Musta

Thanks man, and since you can´t find anything wrong with the facts I´ve
presented here you can go and post those Chechnya 2 pictures you said
you would post.

Uninen

02-20-2004, 12:54 PM

:petting:

At what point did i talk about Naval infranty divisons? rofl

Also, like i said:

Guards units were crack/elite units.

They even trained before the assault in a 100% duplicate of finnish defeces.. :petting:

Also..

Finland was the priority, until your attack was stopped, by us. and at the time it was stopped the attacking force had lost more tanks that it had at the time of the start of the invasion. etc..

But had Stalin still after initial failure wanted to try again and maybe AGAIN you would have won, but your initial and best try still failed.

Also, please do not turn this topic to a flame war just cause you hate mustamato's guts.. (and maybe mine also? :( )

Have little respect for the men and women of the both CCCP and Finland that both gave their best at that summers battles. :|

Uninen

02-20-2004, 12:57 PM

Mustomato didnt read no propagandish history books written by Finns..

:slap: There is no such books, they all are based on facts and on 99.9% accurate records, from the time. :petting:

Finland isnt a Soviet union.

Russian Texan

02-20-2004, 12:57 PM

And you do realize that 1944 the Soviet divisions had a strength of about
5500-6500 men? In comparison a finnish brigade had 7900. You simply don´t
know ****.

Pure BS, name your sources.

I'll repeat my question: "What were the number of "naval divisions" storming Finland?

Saying that Finland and Germany were of the same priority just proves my statement about you being delusional.

mustamato

02-20-2004, 01:00 PM

RomanS

02-20-2004, 01:00 PM

mustamato

02-20-2004, 01:07 PM

facts? 99.9% accurate records?

Each batallion has a diary, this can be ordered from the war archive in Helsinki.
Also it is quite common that companies had these diaries as well (again the war
archive). And then of course there were tens of thousands of soldiers that either
wrote personal diaries each day or after the war has written books and stuff.

Also, it can be noted that also on the Soviet side there were "unit diaries". These
can be found in russian war archives. Historians usually compare these two "versions"
when they work professionally. Generally speaking there is no bull**** in other the
Soviets or the finnish diaries, it has only been twisted afterwards. In example
the Soviet diaries were not open for the public before Glasnost, but the finnish were.

Russian Texan

02-20-2004, 01:10 PM

And you do realize that 1944 the Soviet divisions had a strength of about
5500-6500 men? In comparison a finnish brigade had 7900. You simply don´t
know ****.

Pure BS, name your sources.

And now you are arguing with facts? Oh how desperate :)

ISBN 951-50-1200-7

Where those facts are coming from - your head? Having visions, hearing voices?

Backpedaling is not the way to earn credibility and respect.
You know what, I am tired... Go find someone your own age and intellect level to argue with or go have *** with the sheep or something...

BTW

quote="mustamato]
By the way, are you not a jew?
Look here we got ourselves a little racist :) Supreme Aryan nation...

No I am not jewish, I am cetifiably 100% Russian Texan :)

Javehn

02-20-2004, 01:12 PM

Mustamato is a f*cktard . Just saying :P

ISBN -666SUCKMYD_CK

Uninen

02-20-2004, 01:13 PM

Yeah..

99.9% accurate, and you see Finnish records lack the kind of BS that Soviet "records" has.. IE we called you as ENEMY in them not like you called as "facists or as nazis" and we didnt claim anything, materials destroyed and personel killed were counted when possible, and if that wasnt possible they wrote "estimated"..

But didnt claim anything untrue. :petting:

RomanS

02-20-2004, 01:14 PM

mustamato

02-20-2004, 01:14 PM

And you do realize that 1944 the Soviet divisions had a strength of about
5500-6500 men? In comparison a finnish brigade had 7900. You simply don´t
know ****.

Pure BS, name your sources.

And now you are arguing with facts? Oh how desperate :)

ISBN 951-50-1200-7

Where those facts are coming from - your head? Having visions, hearing voices?

Backpedaling is not the way to earn credibility and respect.
You know what, I am tired... Go find someone your own age and intellect level to argue with or go have *** with the sheep or something...

You do know what a ISBN-number is do you? And I see that I´ve already
won this little conversation of ours :)

http://www.isbn.org/

Uninen

02-20-2004, 01:19 PM

So basically ouor soldiers that fought in Chechnya come back, and write a diary where he killed
No,

The units and their officers kept the war diary, and.. there was always somebody writing that diary, as Finns never lost a full unit of even company size.. :)

Same cannot be said of CCCP which at certain battles lost full divisions to Finns, and Army groups and Armys to Germans.. :|

mustamato

02-20-2004, 01:19 PM

So basically ouor soldiers that fought in Chechnya come back, and write a diary where he killed

http://www.cruftbox.com/cruft/images/dr_evil.jpg

6,000,000 Chechens in one night, single handed.

Yes a mythomaniac like you would probably write something like that. But then
again all russians are not like you. Example from 30. Guards Army corps own
diary: "25.6. - 4.7. (1944) lost 1666 men KIA, 7204 WIA and 174 MIA." That´s the
type of diaries I´m talking about, facts.

This you can easily check up yourself in Moscow and their war archive.

M1A2U2

02-22-2004, 08:31 PM

Mustamanto is that firstone u mentioned the battle from the movie winter war?

mustamato

02-22-2004, 09:17 PM

Mustamanto is that firstone u mentioned the battle from the movie winter war?

No, all mentioned here took place in 1944. The Winter War (Talvisota) was from 1939
to 13th March 1940 (and the war lasted 105 days). The war between 1941
and 1944 was simply called the "Continuation War" (Jatkosota), the finns also fought a
war against Germany in 1944 to 1945, Lapland War (Lapin sota).

Winter War in pictures

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Kartat/3912aJoukkojenVoimasuhteet.jpg
Strength on both sides just before the war broke out

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Rintama/391130aNeuvostopommittajiaHelsingissa.jpg
30th November 1939 Soviet bombers drop bombs over Helsinki, because
of several phoney alarms due to nervous airguards many civilians don´t take
it seriously until it´s too late. Over 90 people are killed only in Helsinki.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Rintama/391201LaatokanPohjoispuolellaSotilaita.jpg
Finnish soldiers

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Kartat/OperaatiotSuomussalmi.jpg
One of the most intesive battles in the Winter War, in Suomussalmi two
Soviet divisions were more or less annihiliated

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Rintama/391228SuomussalmellaAntautuneitaVihollisia.jpg
Red Army POW´s in Suomussalmi

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Rintama/3912LemetinLahellaNeuvostotankkeja.jpg
Red Army tanks

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Rintama/3912PartioVauhdissa.jpg
Finnish ski patrol, while the Soviet mechanized units were forced to use the
roads the finnish light units could easily move around their flanks etc

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Rintama/4001SallanLahellaKonekivaari.jpg
Finnish MG firing at Red Army positions

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Rintama/400107RaatteenTieaSotasaalistaTutkitaan.jpg
Captured tank at Raattee Road, here the finns captured about 40 tanks,
70 artillery guns and 1200 horses. The Soviet 44th Division they were captured
from lost about 70% of its strength. The commander managed to escape in a
airplane, but was shot for "treason".

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Rintama/4001SotasaalistaKorjataan.jpg
Repairing a captured Soviet MG in a workshop. Almost all captured material
was taken into use, either by the forces immediately, or by second line units (in
example weapons with a other calibre).

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Henkilot/12DEverstiSvenssonJaTarkkaAmpujaSimoHayha.jpg
Finnish 12th Division commander together with sniper Simo Häyhä, that
is the highest-scoring sniper in history with 542 kills

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Rintama/400229It%E4LemetinKenraalimotinKomentajanAuto.jpg
Soviet Division commander Kondrajev got killed in his car during a finnish
"hit and run"-raid, this tactics was the one used in almost all of Finland...

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Rintama/4002SummanPuolustajia.jpg
...except in the south were the defences were static (and as seen in the
movie Winter War as well)

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Rintama/400313RauhaTullut.jpg
Flags on half post 13th March, the peace had arrived with its harsh conidtions

Rtq

02-23-2004, 11:37 AM

Russian texan, I have very good reason to think thtat you are a commie.

And how sad it is, not even single commie is able to admit that they are so pissed of the fact that Soviet Union wasn´t able to conquer Finland. And commies are also pissed of the facts that Soviet Union lost veeeeeeery many men on the wars against Finaland.

Russia is still twisting and covering their statistics, because they are so ashamed of their huge losses during the WW2!

They even got the guts to teach in their schools that finland started the winter war back in 1939.

I´m so pissed-----> typos.... :/

Now I´m trying to calm down.

Russian Texan

02-23-2004, 07:21 PM

Russian texan, I have very good reason to think thtat you are a commie.
No, I am not but even if I was - whats wrong with being a communist :)
You need to work on your insults, you see calling me a republican, communist, democrat, liberal, etc. is not really going to get my feelings hurt ;)

And how sad it is, not even single commie is able to admit that they are so pissed of the fact that Soviet Union wasn´t able to conquer Finland. And commies are also pissed of the facts that Soviet Union lost veeeeeeery many men on the wars against Finaland.
If that is what people in Finland think - they need to get over it, it happened like 70 years ago, really....
I am absolutely positively sure that overwhelming majority of russians don't know anything or care about that war, it wasn't a highlight/significant event in Russian history, trust me...

Russia is still twisting and covering their statistics,
My dear brainwashed clearasil victim, when you make statements like this you need to back it up with some proof, where is yours?

because they are so ashamed of their huge losses during the WW2!
They are actually proud of being able to take a punch, recover after a sack, get up, fight and win the fight.
In Russia there are only three feelings associated with the Great Patriotic War: PRIDE, SORROW for fallen and GRATITUDE to our grandfathers who went through hell to put that Red banner on top of Reichstag...

They even got the guts to teach in their schools that finland started the winter war back in 1939.
I do not know/remember

I´m so pissed-----> typos.... :/
Great :lol: You have made my day...
You see, I am one of those weird people who gets a kick out of others being pissed off at them, pleasure is mine...;)

Now I´m trying to calm down.
Please do, because I have heard that being overly nervous can lead to skin break outs, its not like you don't have those already but I don't think you need any more :)

BTW, wasn't Finland forced to give up some of its territory and had to pay war reparations to USSR?
I mean if you won, why pay? It kind of reminds me a situation when little kid/coward pays of to a bully so he doesn't beat him up...don't you find it similar? ;)

RomanS

02-23-2004, 07:32 PM

LOL RussianTexan

Your comebacks always always always make my day!
Thank you brother.

;)

ВСЕХ СИЛЬНЕЕ НАША РУСЬ

mustamato

02-23-2004, 07:59 PM

BTW, wasn't Finland forced to give up some of its territory and had to pay war reparations to USSR?
I mean if you won, why pay? It kind of reminds me a situation when little kid/coward pays of to a bully so he doesn't beat him up...don't you find it similar? ;) [/color]

Hm, Russia is the one that has debts to Finland, billions of dollars. Some of
them has been paid of with weapon deliveries to Finland, exempel the Buk M1
batallions to Finland was paymeant of loans, also Finland has got oil etc. So
yeah we may lack muscles but still, you are the bitches with debts :)

The debts are mainly from the Soviet era because Soviet traded oil for finnish
ships and other high quality products, but because of the oil prices having a tendency
to fall or rise, hence the debts. And yeah Finland lost territories during the war, not
really on the battlefield where the Soviets were beaten back, but signing the armistice.
It´s quite funny, each year Finland sends help to these former finnish areas
where people are starving etc. Russia sure can take care of their citizens, I guess
this is the reason to why you don´t live in Russia as well. But prefer the comfort
of the western world (as Permskiii) :lol:

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Rintama/400107RaatteenTieLoydettyBanderolli.jpg
It´s quite clear that Stalin wanted Finland ruled from Moscow. Didn´t work
out that well, so no Finland didn´t win the war, but they didn´t loose their
independency either as was Moscows plan.

0#256

02-23-2004, 08:44 PM

ВСЕХ СИЛЬНЕЕ НАША РУСЬ

Финляндия все еще выигрывала нашу небольшую войну! Вы должны принять это. :bash:

Ei helvetti mitä urpoja! :cantbeli:

mustamato

02-23-2004, 08:49 PM

More photos from the Finnish-Russian Continuation War 1941-44

All photos from 1941

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/410625SuomenlinnaAmpuuIT-tulta.jpg
Viapori fortress shoots anti-aircraft fire in Helsinki against attacking soviet planes
25th June 1941. Next day Finland joined to war with Germany against Soviet
Union.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/410625TurunLinnaYmp%E4rist%F6.jpg
Turku´s historical castle and its neighborhood after Soviet air raid 25th June
1941. As always the Russians know how to respect cultural stuff that can´t
be replaced.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4106MoskovanRauhanRajatMurtuvat.jpg
Finnish soldiers knocking over the border poles of Moscow peace (1940) on first
day of Continuation War, 26th June 1941.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4108MainilanOikeatLaukaukset18.Divisioona.jpg
"To Mainila", 18th Division preparing to fire real grenades at the village
Mainila, the Winter War 2 years earlier started when Moscow accused the
finns of firing at the village (has later turned out that the Soviets fired
mortars at their own men)

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4106SotavankiSaaHoitoa.jpg
Russian POW gets nursing

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4107HangonRintama.jpg
Attack in process at the Hanko front´

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4107Rukaj%E4rvell%E4Konekiv%E4%E4ri.jpg
MG near Rukajärvi

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4108Fagern%E4sVastaanottaaOhimarssin.jpg
Group F´s soldiers marching past colonel Uno Fagernäs

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4108JaakkimanAsema1.jpg
Assault in progress, Jaakkima railroad station, first a handgrenade...

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4108JaakkimanAsema2.jpg
... and then the assault

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4108RuotsalaisiaVapaaehtoisiaHangonRintamalle.jpg
Swedish volunteers marching to the Hanko front

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4108SuomalaisetKiestinkiin.jpg
Finnish and german soldiers march to Kiestinki

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4108Rautj%E4rvenMaastossa.jpg
Rautjärvi and destroyed Soviet tank

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4108SortavalaKonekiv%E4%E4riTukeeHy%F6kk%E4yst%E4.jpg
MG supporting attack outside Sortavala

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4109SommeenMottiKaatuneitaVen%E4l%E4isi%E4.jpg
At the "Billion motti" three Soviet divisions were encircled, most of the soldiers
managed to slip away after dumping their heavy equipment, the finns captured
heavy equipment for two divisions

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4110LaguksenTankitPetroskoihin.jpg
Finnish tank in Petrozavodsk, the capital of Karelia

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4111BunkkerinTyhjennyst%E41.jpg
Finns throw a couple of handgrenades down in a bunker...

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4111BunkkerinTyhjennyst%E42.jpg
And the personell inside it surrenders

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4112Karhum%E4kiKKRyhm%E4Taistelussa.jpg
Streetfighting in Karhumäki

mustamato

02-23-2004, 08:53 PM

And by the way there is a new upcoming Finnish warmovie, some screenshots
from "Etulinjan edessä":

http://www.etulinjanedessa.fi/p/photo/01.jpg

http://www.etulinjanedessa.fi/p/photo/02.jpg

http://www.etulinjanedessa.fi/p/photo/03.jpg

http://www.etulinjanedessa.fi/p/photo/04.jpg

http://www.etulinjanedessa.fi/p/photo/05.jpg

http://www.etulinjanedessa.fi/p/photo/06.jpg

http://www.etulinjanedessa.fi/p/photo/07.jpg

http://www.etulinjanedessa.fi/p/photo/08.jpg

http://www.etulinjanedessa.fi/p/photo/09.jpg

http://www.etulinjanedessa.fi/p/photo/10.jpg

http://www.etulinjanedessa.fi/p/photo/11.jpg

http://www.etulinjanedessa.fi/p/photo/12.jpg

http://www.etulinjanedessa.fi/p/photo/13.jpg

http://www.etulinjanedessa.fi/p/photo/14.jpg

http://www.etulinjanedessa.fi/p/photo/15.jpg

http://www.etulinjanedessa.fi/p/photo/16.jpg

And some from "Viimeiset motit"

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jkt/keskik/emma-mies.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jkt/keskik/vanja-vainaa.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jkt/keskik/teloitus.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jkt/keskik/ryssan_tarkka-ampuja.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jkt/keskik/ryssat.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jkt/iso/kp-mies_ruuti_palaa.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jkt/keskik/panzerfaust.jpg

Russian Texan

02-23-2004, 09:01 PM

So did Finland lose its territories to USSR or not?
And if it was a victory then why did Finland had to pay reparations?

I am just saying that some things don't exactly add up if to accept your statement that Finland won...
I don't know what kind of brainwashing they do to you guys but the real life story was more like this:
Stalin expected quick and easy victory but due to poor preparations and lack of any experienced military leadership (purges) USSR stumbled, which gave it time to think: Why do we need this frozen tundra mixed with swamps? It's not like we don't have that already, so what's the point... And Finland quickly and handsomly paid USSR off and gave it what it wanted so Russia would just leave Finlad alone...
If simplified, that can be called racketeering and Finaland was a "milk cow".

You provide plenty of numbers and passionate statements but there is one problem:
http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Rintama/400313RauhaTullut.jpg
I doesn't look like a USSR flag to me... If everything was so great and peachy, according to you, then why did Finland lowered it's flags?
Hardly lookes like pride to me, more like a humiliation...

Speaking of debts:
Russia probably has probably done the stupidest and the most gracious thing in the international history when it assumed all of the USSR's former republics debts. It could simply tell everyone: "screw you, we are a new independent country" and walked away and no one be able to do anything about it... But no, in a true russian generous gesture not only it picked up the debt of the RSFSR, it also took over debts of Belorussia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, etc. And then people wonder about Russian economy, it is the way it is because Russia had chosen to do the honorable thing.

Hm, Russia is the one that has debts to Finland, billions of dollars
Are you sure about that? What is the exact number?

Russia sure can take care of their citizens, I guess
this is the reason to why you don´t live in Russia as well. But prefer the comfort
of the western world (as Permskiii)
I do not know about Permskij Omon, but I prefer the money and security of the US. Some friends of mine in Russia make muuuch more money then I do, but I sleep much better at night ;)

BTW, US has the largest debt ever but it doesn't seem to bother anyone ;)

Russian Texan

02-23-2004, 09:03 PM

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jkt/keskik/ryssat.jpg

Yeah, they look very Russian :lol:

Couldn't you guys invite some russian actors? You know, for authenicity and some credibility....

KalleBalleSvartSk@lle

02-23-2004, 09:31 PM

Dear Mr TexanRussian, I don't recall anyone saying Finland won WWII (duh?!)
I haven't read the entire thread as closeley as I should, but it was full of ignorance, bigottery and general bs.
Finland kept their independence, I belive that's what most nations strive for. About the picture of the flag, you don't put it into a context, maybe someone has died, that's quite common in wars you know... don't think the Finns were sad that the war ended.
For some reason you seem to have a hard time accepting reality, don't know why, first you are bs:ing about the guards units, then the size of divisions etc etc etc...
Sure if Stalin had put the entire red army against the finns soviet would probably have won, but it would most probably have costed alot, even Stalin realized it wasn't worth it. Finland decided that it was worth paying the soviet as a part of a peace, and then have their back relatively clear.
Soviet was in ruins after WWII, had lost millions of men, millions had probably starved to death aswell.
Now, grow up, realize that both Soviet, France, Germany, the US and most other contries have had military losses.

Otherwise show some facts that there were no guards units in Finland, that Finland didn't mean anything to Soviet, etc.

"Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish Army."

J. Stalin
1948

Russian Texan

02-23-2004, 09:54 PM

Since you have read thread very closely, where did I state that there was no guards units in Finland?

Where did I BS?
The only people bsing here, walking away from direct answers and twisting events are you my less fortunate scandinavian friends. ;)
And anytime I ask for some proof, you guys change the subject :)
If you are so knowledgeable, may be you can tell me the strenght (man wise) of the Soviet WW2 division and number of the "elite" naval infantry divisions on the Finnish front?

don't recall anyone saying Finland won WWII

What this has to do with anything?
If you have read the thread correctly, you'd notice that it is about Finland "beating" Russia and not winning WW2.

About the flag picture, read the thread again...

Otherwise show some facts that there were no guards units in Finland

When and where did I say that?

that Finland didn't mean anything to Soviet, etc.

When and where did I say that? I have stated that Finland WAS NOT A PRIORITY, GERMANY WAS!

"Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish Army."

J. Stalin
1948

Where did you get this from, you read Stalin? :)

KalleBalleSvartSk@lle

02-23-2004, 10:20 PM

Since you have read thread very closely, where did I state that there was no guards units in Finland?

*You questioned it.

Where did I BS?

*Didn't say you did, did I?

The only people bsing here, walking away from direct answers and twisting events are you my less fortunate scandinavian friends.

*You're avoiding direct answers

And anytime I ask for some proof, you guys change the subject :)

*I see lot's of proof of lot's of things here.

If you are so knowledgeable, may be you can tell me the strenght (man wise) of the Soviet WW2 division and number of the "elite" naval infantry divisions on the Finnish front?

*Never claimed I could, never claimed I was knowledgeable either, as that's a stupid/ dangerous thing to do :)

don't recall anyone saying Finland won WWII

What this has to do with anything?
If you have read the thread correctly, you'd notice that it is about Finland "beating" Russia and not winning WW2.

*They held of the soviet offensive, if that's beating anyone or not is a question of how you define beat. They inflicted heavy losses on the soviets, that left them kind of victorious as they got the peace thay wanted (don't missinterpret that).

About the flag picture, read the thread again...

*This is what you wrote "I doesn't look like a USSR flag to me... If everything was so great and peachy, according to you, then why did Finland lowered it's flags?
Hardly lookes like pride to me, more like a humiliation... "
Doesn't say that this is something that proves that the finns were sorry the war ended.

Otherwise show some facts that there were no guards units in Finland

When and where did I say that?

that Finland didn't mean anything to Soviet, etc.

When and where did I say that? I have stated that Finland WAS NOT A PRIORITY, GERMANY WAS!
*Sorry that was Mustanamo or whoever, damn shouldn't be up this late.

"Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish Army."

J. Stalin
1948

Where did you get this from, you read Stalin? :)

*No, will do that when I start reading Hitler and Idi Amin :)
It came from http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/
Sorry for the crappyness of my reply, didn't have the time to paste [quote]:s

mustamato

02-23-2004, 10:21 PM

may be you can tell me the strenght (man wise) of the Soviet WW2 division (etc etc)

Has already been done, but you didn´t believe facts, I even gave you a
ISBN-number and all. But yeah, that was for 1944 only of course. Not much
point in trying to convince someone that already has his dogmatic truth served
for him and the facts doesn´t fit in his paradigm.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jkt/keskik/ryssat.jpg

Yeah, they look very Russian :lol:

Couldn't you guys invite some russian actors? You know, for authenicity and some credibility....

How do russians look like if not like that? Three ears, one eye, two mouths?

_______________________________________

Some continuation war (1941-44) pictures from 1942

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/41V%E4riTykinMiehist%F6.jpg
Finnish coastal artillery, the finnish artillery together with the german artillery
in Estonia trapped the Soviet Baltic Fleet in Leningrad

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4201Maaselk%E4Rautatiepatteri.jpg
Finnish railroad artillery battery fires in Maaselkä, Janyary 1942

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4201KRHRyhm%E4%C4%E4nisenRannalla.jpg
Mortar team (with probably captured 50 mm) on the frozen Lake Onega

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4204Syv%E4riTaistelussaV%E4synytSotilas.jpg
Tired warrior rests after combat

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4204Syv%E4riVihollisenRynn%E4kk%F6%E4Odotellessa.jpg
Finns have taken a Soviet trench and repulsed a counterattack

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4205KiestinkiPST-TykkiToiminnassa.jpg
Captured 45 mm anti-tank gun fires

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4206MannerheiminSyntym%E4p%E4iv%E4Hitler%26Mannerheim.jpg
Hitler makes his only visit to a non-occupied country during the war in June
1942 to gratulate Mannerheim on his 75th birthday

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/42LentokoneenPer%E4sint%E4Korjataan.jpg
Finnish Junker 88 bomber damaged by Soviet flak

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4209Syvyyspommitusta.jpg
A depth charge detonates over a suspected Soviet submarine in the
Gulf of Finland, the Baltic Fleet was trapped in during the war in
Leningrad, only the submarines could operate, and they suffered heavy
losses because of mines etc.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/42V%E4riSotavankeja.jpg
Soviet POW´s going to work

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4306ViihdytysAkuK%E4yhk%F6Esiintyy.jpg
Entertainment for finnish soldiers at the front...

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4306ViihdytysYleis%F6ll%E4OnHauskaa.jpg
... and it´s funny as hell obviously

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/42V%E4riBrewsterinLennolla.jpg
Finnish Air Force Brewster Buffalo on patrol

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/42JSPss%E4TietojenOttoa.jpg
First aid station near the front

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4207V%E4riViestimiesViestitt%E4%E4.jpg
German ferry on Lake Ladoga (where also the Italians had some torpedo
boats except for the finnish Navys vessels).

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4204Syv%E4riLiekinheitinKarkoittaaVihollisen.jpg
Finnish flamethrower in work against Soviet positions

Russian Texan

02-24-2004, 12:31 AM

How do russians look like if not like that? Three ears, one eye, two mouths?

They don't look as retarded and pathetic , well I guess its hereditary :) j/k
Trust me those guys don't look like russians, look at Chechnya photos for a comparison.

finnish front kept
5 Soviet Armies

So how come only 21st and parts of 23rd were used in attack if Finland was such a priority?

That ISBN number that you typed up doesn't do anything for me...
I have really looked hard but yet to find any confirmation of "7900" number. It is always 10.000+.
5000, 6000, 7000 and 8000 was number of troops in the pre war "shell" divisions.

Not much
point in trying to convince someone that already has his dogmatic truth served
for him and the facts doesn´t fit in his paradigm.

Did you really come up with that paragraph yourself? I am impressed :lol:
So what am I trying to achieve by arguing the number of troops in a soviet infantry division during WW2?
I mean every action has to have a reason, so what is mine?

The facts are:
Soviets attacked Finland twice during 1939-1944, both times resulted in a stalemate.

Soviet forces suffered higher casualtie rate against better led (by the Russian tsarz army general), determined and entrenched defending Finnish forces.

Both times Finland had to sign unfavorable peace treaties which resulted in the loss of an area size of Netherlands and monetary reparations to the USSR.

May be you think differently but in my mind when someone is forced to give up territory and pay off to be left alone - that is a loss...

On a bright side - Finland remained independent.

mustamato

02-24-2004, 12:59 AM

number of troops in a soviet infantry division during WW2

Hint: It changed over time, a Soviet infantry divisions strength was not the same
in the early war as it was in the late war. Because Soviet tactics was such disaster
in the Winter War there was immediately made changes after that. These were not
ready when Operation Barbarossa began and Red Army lost millions of men. You
are utterly naive if you think that they didn´t try to change tactics that were
proven disasters.

Finnish-Soviet division strength comparison 1939

http://www.winterwar.com/forces/SUvsFIN/FINdivOrganization.jpghttp://www.winterwar.com/forces/SUvsFIN/SUdivOrganization.jpg
Finnish division had 14.200 men and a Soviet had about 18.000
http://www.winterwar.com/forces/SUvsFIN/SuDiv-FinDiv.htm

Finnish-Soviet division strength comparison 1944

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/1944.jpg
In swedish but you get the general idea, a finnish division had 14.500 men,
a soviet division had fewer but more firepower. A finnish brigade had 7900
men and by modern standards not much firepower at all. Just 6 heavy mortars
etc. In comparison a finnish brigade today (5700 men) has 36 heavy mortars.

During the summer offensive against Finland in 1944 the Soviet divisions had
shrunk from about 18.000 during the Winter War to about 5000-6000 men.
This made the divisions easier to lead in combat. The lack of men had been
compensated by more firepower in the firm of field guns, heavy mortars etc.
The Guard divisions were usually larger with about 10.500 men. Usually young
soldiers, well equipped, well trained, highly motivated etc. These were used
as "spearhead" units. The reason to why the Soviet (ordinary) divisions had
become smaller was also new tactics, moving in swamps, attacking in flanks
etc, and not using ww1 tactics as was the case in the Winter War.

So how come only 21st and parts of 23rd were used in attack if Finland was such a priority?

Only? We are talking about a narrow isthmus here, hundreds of thousands of
men. And no, it was not only these two armies that was used during the offensive,
but it was these two that were used in the isthmus (between Gulf of Finland
and lake Ladoga that is).

juhae

02-24-2004, 01:02 AM

How do russians look like if not like that? Three ears, one eye, two mouths? They don't look as retarded and pathetic , well I guess its hereditary :) Trust me those guys don't look like russians, look at Chechnya photos for a comparison.
In general Finns have less ethnically Asian population, which is quite understandable, as our border has never been "to the Urals and beyond". However, a very good portion of the people have a slavic family background, atleast partially, instead of germanic or ugric.

Russian Texan

02-24-2004, 01:12 AM

number of troops in a soviet infantry division during WW2

Hint: It changed over time, a Soviet infantry divisions strength was not the same

Well, duh.... :roll: :cantbeli:

After first war with Finland they became slimmer but never went, in their full strenght, under 10.000 sorry...
I am an open minded person, so once you show me proof that soviets used 5-6K divisions during WW2, I will admit that I am wrong.

Going back to "5 armies".
How come only 21st and parts of 23rd were used?

I have looked at the multitude of sources, most are finnish, and those are the only two ever mentioned.

mustamato

02-24-2004, 01:31 AM

Some pictures from the continuation war (1941-44) 1943

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/partisanoffer.jpg
A child murdered by Soviet partisans. In the northern front the partisans
tried to copy the finnish LRRP patrols, but instead of hitting military targets
they became a plague to the finnish civilians that lived close to the border.
Several hundred civilians were killed by Soviet partisans. However they often
reported that they had "attacked a finnish military camp" etc, and are thus
"heroes" in Russia still today. The "soldiers" in the reports were often children
like the one on the picture.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4308EldankalyseonTunti.jpg
Class in Lyceum of Eldanka August 1943. Trench warfare granted for
young soldiers to take part in almost normal schoolteaching at front. (I
guess RussianT can see on them that they are finns :roll: )

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4303Sukellusveneverkko.jpg
Submarine net in Gulf of Finland (between Estonia and Finland), the net became
quite successfull, it was heavily supplemented by mines and patrols by finnish
and german navy vessels and submarines, this kept the Soviet Baltic fleet in Leningrad.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4310V%E4riCurtissHawk75A.jpg
Finnish Curtis Hawk fighters taking off for a patrol flight

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4310V%E4riJunkersJu88A-4.jpg
Finnish Junkers 88 bombers

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/43KorsuarkkitehtuuriaParhaimmillaanSinisenPrikaatinElokuvateatteri.jpg
Perhaps the best example of spare-time activities during trench
warfare: Movie theater which is built partly under ground in Blue
Brigade´s area East Karelia 1943.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/43Tupakkamies.jpg

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/43IlmapuolustusViholliskoneidenSeurantaa.jpg
All visual spot informations about enemy planes are sent to a air
surveillance center for which send information to fighters and anti air
batterys. 1943.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/43V%E4riPartioLennolla.jpg
Fighters patrols the skyes 1943. The finnish fighters had a very high kill-ratio
over the Soviet fighter pilots, in example the highest scoring non-german/austrian
is a finn, Ilmari Juutilainen with 94 kills, in the late war when the Soviet fighter
planes were rather good or even superior to the finnish ones it became more
difficult for the finnish fighter pilots.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/43V%E4riSotilaatAsemissaan.jpg

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/43MannerheimVierailulla1.jpg
Finnish chief in command Mannerheim making a visit to the front. In contrast
to Stalin Mannerheim often did these visists, often as a surprise for the unit
commanders because Mannerheim wanted to see himself how they did their
job and how the readiness in the unit was uphold etc.

mustamato

02-24-2004, 01:35 AM

I am an open minded person, so once you show me proof that soviets used 5-6K divisions during WW2, I will admit that I am wrong.

Going back to "5 armies".
How come only 21st and parts of 23rd were used?

1. Se my previous post (the photo showing division strength in 1944, I scanned
it from the same "ISBN-number"-book.)

2. See my previous post. And check up how "big" this isthmus is in a map,
and again, it was not only those two that were used, it was those two that
were used in the isthmus, Red Army also had offensives at the Svir-front
and in eastern Karelia, not to mention in the north. Only at the Isthmus
Armygeneral Leonid Govorov had 270.000 men with 660 tanks, 1660 field
guns, 1500 planes etc. And once again, take a look at a map.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/genombrottet.jpg
Soviet break-through. We are talking a about a few kilometers of the
front here my young friend. And look at the concentration of troops. And
you wonder why "only 2 Armies was used" :roll: Maybe in your fantasy
more could have been used, what would have made it a priority, 50
Armies? 200?

Russian Texan

02-24-2004, 09:24 AM

Mustamato, why you are keep giving me ISBN number, why not to provide me with the name of the book and a page number? ;)

What does the size of Isthmus have to do with "Soviets had 5 armies in the Finnish front" as you have stated on the page one of this thread?

I mean if Finland was so crucial, according to you, why not use all 5 instead of 1.5?

And stop avoiding direct question. ;)

Uninen

02-24-2004, 09:42 AM

Dont mean to hostile / rude, but:

They both live in USA (the nation that conspires everyday to ruin their homeland, and spreads all kinds of propaganda about their gov.. and still supports / has supported all kinds of terrorists "resisting" Russia and USSR.. like in Chechnya nad Afghanistan..), and are being "big and loyal Russians".. just makes me wonder, i mean.. if i was Russian, i wouldnt move to USA in the first place.. in fact, i wouldnt move to there at all, even if i had been a Cambodian.. :cantbeli:

Russian Texan

02-24-2004, 09:55 AM

Uninen, if you like Russia so much, why don't you move over there?
You see, I like both Russia and US for different things, that is why I hold dual citezenship.
Also once you grow up, you'll realise that there is a difference between a government of the country and its people...

Ian H

02-24-2004, 09:58 AM

What mustamato is trying to say (correctly or not, I don't know), is that on the entire Finnish front the Red Army used five Army Groups, of which 1 and a half or so were employed on the isthmus sector of that front.

Can I just thank you both for keeping this going so long. Insults aside, I've learnt a lot.

Uninen

02-24-2004, 10:31 AM

Russian Texan,

Just that you know.. i also dont like my countrys gov. and i also think that they do many things that are wrong, to their own benefit, and at expence of the people.. and no matter how bad thing would go, i would not abbandon my home, regardless who or / what was in power and what they would do.. but i guess thats what SISU is all about, something that people of other nations lack.. :|

--
Anyhow, some pics, this time, of Finnish armor.. most of what btw, was captured Soviet equipment..
--

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/images/finland/stug_iii_02.jpg
STUG III, T-34 killer with 5 kills.

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/images/finland/stug_iii.jpg
Another STUG III, in camo and plenty kills.

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/images/finland/stug_iii_01.jpg
Yet another STUG III, with its crew. :) (1943)

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/images/finland/pzkpfw_iv.jpg
Finnish Pzkw IV, in 1944 but these didnt take any part in any battles.

http://www.ilmatorjuntaupseeriyhdistys.fi/3_99/kuvat/panssa16.jpg
Finnish Landsverk anti II, SPAAG 40mm, we had 6 of these and they shot down 10 enemy aircrafts and damaged several others.

http://www.alavus.fi/perinnehuone/Erkki4.jpg
Finnish T-34s captured from Soviets chasing Germans during 1944-1945 Lapland war. (used as they were supposed to be used.. ;) )

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/finland/bt42.jpg
BT-42, Finns tryed to build a TD on captured "Soviet fas tanks chasis", with 114mm English gun, the thing was failure with only 18 build, and most lost.

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/images/finland/bt_42.jpg
BT 42, knocked out in 1944. (With soviet soldier wondering there that WTF is this weird piece of metal..)

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/images/finland/t-34_85.jpg
T-34/85 in Finnish service.

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/images/finland/kv-1.jpg
KV-1 in Finnish service.

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/images/finland/t-34.jpg
T-34/76 and T-28 in Finnish service and on parade.

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/images/finland/t_50_01.jpg
T-50 recon tank in Finnish service.

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/images/finland/t_28_01.jpg
Captured T-28 in the spring of 1940 at Keskuskorjaamo, Hameenlinna.

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/images/finland/t_26_1937_01.jpg
T-26 Model 1937, with the 3rd Tank Company in the summer of 1944.

--

Maine Finn

02-24-2004, 11:06 AM

You provide plenty of numbers and passionate statements but there is one problem:
http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Rintama/400313RauhaTullut.jpg
I doesn't look like a USSR flag to me... If everything was so great and peachy, according to you, then why did Finland lowered it's flags?
Hardly lookes like pride to me, more like a humiliation...

It looks to me like a gesture of remembrance for the men who didn't make it home... but I suppose that my saying so is biassed because I'm a Finn too, right?

Let's cut the **** and put away the measuring sticks, boys. I've read the thread in its entirety, and I'm getting rather fed up with the pissing contest. The Finns lost each conflict with the Soviets, history tells us that much. They sued for armistice, so to end it. I guess I don't see how that's dishonourable or wrong in some way. To me it shows some sense, because they were outnumbered and outgunned, even with German and Swedish assistance. Why not keep what you have left, as opposed to potentially losing everything?

Enough of this petty bickering, dammit. This Forum is for photos and videos. If you boys want to take potshots at each other to see who's bigger and badder, there's a general discussion forum just down the hall.... have at it.

And, yeah, my first post on this Forum was a response to a post in the middle of flame war.... and it's really not that much different than now, except for my attitude. If you boys find it necessary to criticise me for that, then by all means, flame away. I had thought (naively, of course) that I could post a couple of pictures and that would be it. Sometimes I wonder why I bother to think at all.

I'm sure you fine, upstanding gentlemen can zip up your pants and grow up a little.... this is directed to EVERYONE who's been tossing the insults, and I don't give a **** if you're a Finn, Swede, Russian, or American.
Mustamato and Uninen, thanks for the pictures... they're much appreciated. Keep up the good work.

By the way, I just found out that one of my friends has just decided to vanish and cut all ties to everyone who knows him. So, yeah, I'm just a little bit upset.

There, now that I've been such a killjoy, you all can go back to doing whatever makes you feel tough.

Groove

02-24-2004, 11:16 AM

A very nice discussion dudes !

Here are the real facts:

You cant win a war against russia ! Even if you would nuke them from the earth! Nobody neverever could withstand the russian warmachine !

Look into the histry books. The russian always fought brave wars. They never stept back and waited for one or two winters! They could crush the German Offensive against Russia if they wanted. But why they should that ? They just waited some years for fun.

Of course there was no elite troops attacking in Finland. All the brave elite sailors were needed to cross the the Rivers on the way to Berlin! Man i love our russians here on the forum. What kind of perfect propaganda the soviets had. I must admire its really good!

All the brilliant tactics they used in WW2 should be learned on all Military Schools world wide. I like this one best : "Rush the German MG42 infested lines. And dont try to come back because our MGs are waiting for you!" - The Germans were really surprised as the 1st and 2nd wafe of attackers hat weapons and the 3rd had to pick em from the dead russians.

Dont get me wrong. Its really funny to read all the russian fellas here. They would never ever say something against they troops ( even if it would be historical correct) - that is the real patrioism that even the US could learn from.

So pls continue the discusion.

Greetings

Groove

Uninen

02-24-2004, 11:30 AM

"Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish Army."

J. Stalin
1948

--

:roll:

He said / did that and also mentioned something about that had certain larger armys had the same spirit and leadership / officer corps the ww2 would have been much, much less painful experience..

--

http://karjala.dyndns.org/metsapirtti/artikkelit/penttiahtiainen/jankajaak/janka49.jpg
This is a photo of Ihantala crossroads..

http://karjala.dyndns.org/metsapirtti/artikkelit/penttiahtiainen/jankajaak/janka50.jpg
Arty fire control post in Ihantala.

http://karjala.dyndns.org/metsapirtti/artikkelit/penttiahtiainen/jankajaak/janka53.jpg
30.6.1944 in Ihantala, destroyed T-34, which first disabled by German STUG III (those got 5-10 kills while in Finland.. all in all..) and destroyed totally by Corporal Matti Huppunen with Panzerfaust.

http://karjala.dyndns.org/metsapirtti/artikkelit/penttiahtiainen/jankajaak/janka57.jpg
Heres a pic of what Germans did to Finlands Lapland and to Rovaniemi city..

http://karjala.dyndns.org/metsapirtti/artikkelit/penttiahtiainen/jankajaak/janka61.jpg
The war is over, and last of Germans have been driven out, the fence in the background is Norways border. April 25. 1945

--

Groove

02-24-2004, 11:46 AM

were finland and germans allies ? or did they provide the fins with weapons to create a bufferzone against Stalins troops ?

Groove

Macs.

02-24-2004, 11:47 AM

Groove

02-24-2004, 11:52 AM

Well, wait for an answer from our russian buddies ! Im strict neutral in this case !

Shadow NX

02-24-2004, 12:47 PM

Here are the real facts:

You cant win a war against russia ! Even if you would nuke them from the earth! Nobody neverever could withstand the russian warmachine !

What about chechenya ? :roll:
What about afgahnistan ? :roll:

In Chechnya atm its more fighting terrorists...
In Afghanistan the soviets would have been victorious if it wasnt for the politics...

Read here: Afghanistan info (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7201&start=0)

And: Chechnya info (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5954)

mustamato

02-24-2004, 04:12 PM

were finland and germans allies ? or did they provide the fins with weapons to create a bufferzone against Stalins troops ?

Groove

Interesting that you "know" that there were no elite soldiers attacking Finland
when you don´t even know that. Again, GaD (Guards Division) and GaAK (Guards
Army Corps) on the maps sure as hell counts as elite soldiers.

No, allies is not the correct word. Finland lost territories during the Winter War
and simply wanted them back. When Germany attacked Soviet Union during
Operation Barbarossa Finland was neutral, but after Soviet hostilities (like bombing
the finnish capital), Finland joined the Germans in their offensive. The lost territories
was quickly taken, after that the offensive continued to get a buffer to give back
to Stalin after the war had ended. The finnish commanders were probably a bit more
realistic than the german ones and understood that Soviet Union wasn´t going to
be defeated. This is in example why finnish soldiers didn´t participate in the siege
of Leningrad or did more to cut the leand-and-lease Murmansk railroad etc as the
germans demanded that they should do. In contrast to ex. Hungary etc Finland were
not allied with Germany, "brothers in arms" is a better term. The finns did what they
thought was in their national interest and not what was ordered from Berlin. This
partnership provided Finland with modern weapons, and not to mention more than
200.000 german situated in northern Finland.

Some pictures from the Continuation War (1941-44) 1944

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Varusteet/DesanttienVarusteitaJoroistenL%E4hell%E4.jpg
The equipment of a Soviet recoinnasance parachutist dropped over Finland.
These were dropped during the whole war. Both female and men. Often they got
caught because finnish is not necessarily a difficult language to learn, but a difficult
language to ****ounce. And if you speak it to perfect and behave to strict when
in a uniform etc as the spies often did, that raised suspision. Finns had a more laidback
attitude to most things than they were used to in Soviet Union.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Varusteet/DesantinVarusteita.jpg
Same as above

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Varusteet/HeinkelHe115A-2.jpg
Heinkel 115. The plane was used to ship commandos behind enemy lines,
the finnish LRRP patrols were very effective. They operated and blow up factories
etc as far as Archangelsk. But maybe more importantly they captured high-ranking
prisoners, listened to radio traffic etc. Mission length could be from a couple of
days to several months (then supplies was dropped etc to them)

http://www.veteraanienperinto.fi/suomi/Kertomukset/TietoP/kaukopartio/144537.jpg
LRRP patrol in the winter 1943/1944 behind enemy lines. The unit commanders
handpicked their soldiers from regular infantry. Often the man choosed was elite
athletes etc. One of these men later became...

http://www.veteraanienperinto.fi/suomi/Kertomukset/sotilas/sotilas/jatkosota/mauno_koivisto/koivisto1.jpg
... president in Finland as well

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Varusteet/DB-3Ms.jpg
Captured Ilyushin DB-3 bomber in Finnish use, 11 were in use during the war
and the were used as much as possible against military targets.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4403Linnoitusty%F6Vammelsuu-Taipale.jpg
Fortification work in process early 1944. It was not a question if there was
to be launched a major offensive against Finland, the question was only when

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4405Linnoitusty%F6Vammelsuu-TaipaleKeskener%E4isi%E4Bunkkereita.jpg
Fortification work on the Vammelsuu-Taipale defence line

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4406Evakkotiell%E4J%E4lleen.jpg
When Soviet Union launched their summer offensive in 1944 more than 200.000
civilians left their homes. No one forced them to leave, but it was said that if
they stayed they would be forced to became citizens of Soviet Union... no one stayed

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4406KannaksellaTaisteluasemissa.jpg
Finns ready to repel attack in front of old destroyed bunker from Winter War

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4406IT-tykkiValmiinaAmpumaanKannaksella.jpg
40 mm Bofors ready in June 1944

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4406Maaselk%E4Karhum%E4enRautatiesiltaR%E4j%E4ytet%E4%E4n.jpg
Railroad bridge blown up during retreat

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4406Panssarikauhu.jpg
German-supplied "Bazooka", note "SA" (Suomen Armeija = Finnish Army),
this was stamped on all all property of the army.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4406PST-TykkiAsemissaKannaksella.jpg
Anti-tank gun ready

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4406SuomalaisetVet%E4ytyv%E4tUusiinAsemiin.jpg
Finnish soldiers retreating towards Vammelsuu-Taipale defence line in June 1944

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4406TaisteluosastoKuhlmeynStukia.jpg
When the offensive begun the germans sent help in form of weapons, but
also a Luftwaffe detachment, Battle Squadron Kulhmey with Stukas and Fokke-Wulf´s.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4406TaisteluosastoKuhlmeynFw190.jpg
FW-190 from Kuhlmey´s, the detachment consisted of 30 Stukas, 30 FW-190
and some Me-109 that was used to recon

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4406ViipuriVen%E4l%E4isetMarssivatViipuriin.jpg
Soviet troops enters Viipuri (Finlands 2nd largest city) without a shot being
fired after a debacle where the finnish soldiers retreated due to a missunderstand,
when they believed that they had been outflanked. The commander of the finnish
soldiers in the town was after the war courtmartialed. This is easily the worst
missunderstanding in the Finnish history.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4406V%E4liaikainenKomentopaikka.jpg
Temporary command post of a finnish commander in June 1944

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4406V%E4riJoenYlitys.jpg
Finnish soldiers crossing a river in July 1944

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4407KannasKPmiesVuosalmella.jpg
Finn with a captured PPSh-41

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4407KannasSaksalainenRynn%E4kk%F6tykkiSiirtyyAsemiin.jpg
German assault gun going to a new position, some german troops from
nothern Finland was sent south to assist the finns during the offensive

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4408IlomantsiVen%E4l%E4inenAntautuu.jpg
A Soviet soldier in a encirclement surrenders. After Tali-Ihantala (the largest
battle in the Nordic countries history) Stalin begun to send divisions to Germany
instead because the offensive had gone far behind schedule. The Soviet offensive
lost much of its initiative and in many places several Soviet divisions were encircled
and finished of, as the one on the picture, 176th Division, 289th also in the encirclment
managed to flee.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4408MannerheimistaPresidentti.jpg
Mannerheim becomes a president of Finland and a armistice with Soviet Union
is signed against the will of Germany and promises made by the former president.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4409Tolvaj%E4rviAselepo.jpg
Former enemies meeting each other in september 1944

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/4409TupakanpolttoaRauhanTultua.jpg
Time for a smoke, armistice has come, September 1944, war was lost
but independence was "won" Not bad for a country of not even 4 million vs Soviet Union

Groove

02-24-2004, 05:15 PM

Interesting that you "know" that there were no elite soldiers attacking Finland
when you don´t even know that.

You didnt got the point :hug:

Thx for the info anyway !

Groove

mustamato

02-24-2004, 05:19 PM

Some pictures of the Lapland War 1944-1945

When signing the armistice with Soviet Union in 1944 the finns agreed on
getting the Germans out of Finland. The Germans were not that interested
in it because of the strategic value of northern Europe, and also they wanted
to keep several Soviet Armies up north instead of having a situation where
they would be sent south against Germany instead. However they soon begun
to retreat to Norway (to send the divisions south to Germany from there). A strange
war in many ways because both sides knew each other well after all those years
of being brothers in arms, when the germans tried something the finns could slip
out of the net easily and vice versa. There was approximately 8000 KIA on both
the Finnish and German side.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/rendulic.jpg
Commander of the 200.000 soldiers in the German 20th Mountain Army
in Lapland, Lothar Rendulic

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/fallnatyskar_suursaari.jpg
(Dead germans) Germans tried to take the strategic island of Suursaari
in the Gulf of Finland but was repulsed back to sea by the finnish defenders.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Lapinsota/Rintama/SuursaariJaKaatunutSaksalainen.jpg
Another dead german at the Suursaari beach

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Lapinsota/Rintama/SaksalaisiaSotavankeja.jpg
German POW´s taken at Suursaari, all POW´s were handed over to the
Soviet authorities

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/torniobrinner.jpg
Finnish 11th Infantry regiment (JR11) made a amphibious assault
behind enemy lines against the city of Tornio, the germans were
surprised at first but then took up the fight. The soldiers were easily
landed at the undefended harbour (except for a irritating german "88"
that was taken out fast) before the germans understood what was
happening. When they did they took up the fight. The photo is taken from
the swedish side of the border.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/brinnandebyggnad_lappland.jpg
Hitler became furious over the finnish "treason" and decided that everything
in Lapland should be burnt down. Here a timeset bomb had set a building to fire.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Lapinsota/Rintama/JoenYlitysR%E4j%E4ytetynSillanOhi.jpg
Almost all bridges were blown up in Lapland as well

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Lapinsota/Rintama/MiinaanAjanutSuomalainenKuorma-auto.jpg
Not to mention that the germans put mines everywhere in Lapland,
these killed finnish civlians as late as the 1970´s and can still be found
then and then.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Lapinsota/Rintama/MiinanRaivausta.jpg
Clearing mines

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Lapinsota/Rintama/RovaniemiPartioKaupunginL%E4hell%E4.jpg
Finnish patrol near Rovaniemie

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/me109_lapplandskriget.jpg
Finnish Me-109 that was in action during the Lapland War, due to the
(obvious) risk for confusing the finnish and german planes the finns
changed their national insignia from the blue svastika used earlier to a
circle with blue and white

http://karjala.dyndns.org/metsapirtti/artikkelit/penttiahtiainen/jankajaak/janka61.jpg
And that nice photo, last german troops have left finnish soil, April 1945
And aaaaaaah finally peace.

Marmot1

02-24-2004, 05:21 PM

Nice flame war :lol: can I join? ;) Great topic...

Groove

02-24-2004, 05:41 PM

you are welcome Marmot :)

Great Pics thx for sharing them ! I really didnt know a **** about the "northern fights" in WW2 !

Greetings

Groove

Maine Finn

02-24-2004, 05:59 PM

Yeah, you're welcome... glad that I started this thread for you, aren't you? What would you have done otherwise, hmm?

:roll:

No more flaming. Give it a rest for once.

"Trying to talk sense to males is like trying to talk to rocks.... there's not much wisdom in either, and they just give blank looks...."

Dalleer

02-25-2004, 03:12 PM

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/rendulic.jpg

Hmm, still think that this moustache style is popular, eh?

Sergei

02-26-2004, 05:32 AM

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jkt/keskik/ryssat.jpg

Yeah, they look very Russian :lol:

Couldn't you guys invite some russian actors? You know, for authenicity and some credibility....

:D :D :D :D Горячие финские парни! Hot Finnish boys! :D :D :D :D

Sergei

02-26-2004, 06:02 AM

Here is another Hot Finnish boy,

http://www.hypershop.ru/goods_pictures/national_hunt_b.jpg?

Ville Haapasalo (on the right) starring in the movie "Peculiarities of national hunting" together with Russian actor. :D :D :D A nice comedy.

BTW, staying on topic, who is Mr.Hyry?

mustamato

02-26-2004, 06:02 AM

Sergei

02-26-2004, 06:14 AM

Hot Finnish boys!

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jkt/keskik/ryssa_vangiksi3.jpg
The ruskie doesn´t seem to mind, look at the smile...

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jkt/keskik/teloitus.jpg
...but oh how wrong he was, he didn´t get "punished" the way he wanted to

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jkt/keskik/ryssa_vangiksi2.jpg
I wonder if this man had more luck?

BTW, staying on topic, who is Mr.Hyry?

Click the link in the first post.

It looks to me as if most of the actors, both the "russians" and the "finns" are overweight, no? I can't imagine having so well-fed Ruskie troops in 1941 in Karelia.

I mean look at their fat faces :D
http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jkt/keskik/ryssat.jpg

mustamato

02-26-2004, 06:16 AM

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/header.jpg

http://www.etulinjanedessa.fi/etulinja_laajakaista.mov

Right-click, save as, 25 mb, trailer of the new Finnish warmovie

mustamato

02-26-2004, 06:53 AM

It looks to me as if most of the actors, both the "russians" and the "finns" are overweight, no? I can't imagine having so well-fed Ruskie troops in 1941 in Karelia.

I mean look at their fat faces :D
http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jkt/keskik/ryssat.jpg

Well, most of these guys just do it because it´s fun and not because they will
get a lot of cash. The Finnish movie industry is not like Hollywood. So asking
for them to get 30 kg lighter is probably a little too much. But I don´t think
that all Soviet/Finnish soldiers were skinny as skeletons either. 18 year olds
are usually quite skinny by nature. But people that are 30+ have a tendency
to look "fat".

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jkt/keskik/kvkrh_t-as.jpg
"Fat finns" of the 21th century

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/82mm_naku.jpg
"Skinny finns" 1942. This is a mystery mortar, in the book I scanned the photo
from it´s only referred to as 82 mm miniature mortar "Naku" (obviously a finnish
nickname). Given the calibre it´s a captured Soviet mortar.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/vankeja.jpg
Skinny Soviet POW´s taken in 1941

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/poserar.jpg
Two young finnish soldiers posing for photos, looking skinny as most young
people tend to do

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/saamajarvi.jpg
My grandfather is one of these men (I think, not really sure), but some of them
don´t look that skinny, probably because they are not 18 any longer

Sergei

02-26-2004, 08:11 AM

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/82mm_naku.jpg
"Skinny finns" 1942. This is a mystery mortar, in the book I scanned the photo
from it´s only referred to as 82 mm miniature mortar "Naku" (obviously a finnish
nickname). Given the calibre it´s a captured Soviet mortar.

Putin's father on the far right. That's how the future KGB operative ended up in St.Petersburg, very close to Finland's border. :D Nice photos, by the way, keep them coming. :hug:

Sergei

02-26-2004, 08:23 AM

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/poserar.jpg
Two young finnish soldiers posing for photos, looking skinny as most young
people tend to do

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/saamajarvi.jpg
My grandfather is one of these men (I think, not really sure), but some of them
don´t look that skinny, probably because they are not 18 any longer

About obesity and skininess, that has nothing to do with the age. If you keep yourself fit, you will look fit at any age whether 18 or 45 y.o.

This guy is past his teenage years by a long shot, yet he is as agile as any youngster.
http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data//500/6673che8.jpg

Just had fun looking at those pizza and hamburger boys pretending to be soviet soldiers.

Maine Finn

02-26-2004, 08:45 AM

BTW, staying on topic, who is Mr.Hyry?

If you had goen to the link I posted at the beginning of this thread, you would know the answer to that question.

But in case you haven't done that, here's a line taken straight from that page:

Interview of Mr. Matti Hyry (doctor, G.P. ret. ; Res. Lt., Finnish Army) on 6.March 1999

"YES, I'm tired.... YES, I'm hungry.... and YES, those two things working together make me a VERY irritable person...."

mustamato

02-26-2004, 09:44 AM

Just had fun looking at those pizza and hamburger boys pretending to be soviet soldiers.

You make it sound as if there is something wrong with not constantly being
hungry as seems to be the case in Russia, Ukraine or where you now come
from, and talking about real Soviet soldiers, well, they seem to be eating happily

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Talvisota/Piirrokset/SuomalainenLentolehtinenViholliselle2.jpg
Finnish wartime flyer dropped to Soviet soldiers

Propaganda of course. But there is some truth in it. My father was a kid
during the war, and outside his village there was a POW-camp with Soviet soldiers.
They didn´t really have any guards, they worked on the fields and their
"guards" were the women in the farms. They also got food from the farms
where they were working. Simply, a Soviet POW got better and more food than
a Soviet serviceman, generally that is. There were even Soviet soldiers that
switched side when they understood that the "white fascists" were quite good
after all.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/41LapatossuJaSotavanki.jpg
Another Soviet POW in Finland, doesn´t exactly seem
to be in a world of misery. Finnish POW´s got shot or were
sent to labour camps where they starved to death probably

RomanS

02-26-2004, 11:57 AM

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~jkt/keskik/ryssat.jpg

holly ****, they do look like a bunch of euro douchebags
Nothing SLAVIC on those actors.

HORRIBLE

mustamato

02-26-2004, 01:39 PM

Scanned some more photos. Most of them are from a book about the regiment
where my grandfather served during the war. They obviously mean a lot to me
personally but probably nothing to you guys. Atleast they are unique (since
the book was printed in 150 copies or something like that and most of the photos
are from private collections).

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/soldatgiftersig.jpg
A soldiers gets married with his wife. My grandfathers division was during the
first two weeks of the offensive held in reserve together with a German division,
but everyone knew that they would soon be sent into action, so things like this was
quite common. Actually during the war there was set a record for marriage
in Finland.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/avresatillfronten.jpg
Soldiers from neighbouring company (6th, grandfather belonged to 7th) departs
for the front. In the war diary it says that the transport came under aerial attack,
but no one got injured (atleast not in the batallion)

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/kompanichef_ger_order.jpg
Again 6th company, commander gives order during the battle of Kukkajärvi

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/rysktpansar_kukkajarvi.jpg
Some of the destroyed Soviet armour after the battle at Kukkajärvi, at the
battle my grandfathers company played a important role since the Soviet counter-
attack was launched against their positions. In the battle 14 light tanks were
capured, of which 8 could be sent immediately to colonel Lagus 1. Armoured
brigade. Also one armoured car, one truck, two (not beyond repair) damaged
all-terrain vehicles, 10 mortars, 27 LMG´s, 72 automatic rifles and a huge bunch
of ammunition. Just one of those thousands of battles that took place during
the second world war and is forgotten today just because it "wasn´t big enough".
With the help of the civilians in the area the Soviet dead were buried, it took
two days. Notice Karelian kids on one of the photos.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/kompanichefer_jr35.jpg
Some of the company commanders in the regiment. Note captured automatic
rifle. Automatic rifles and LMG´s were usually taken to use immediately.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/grkeldledare.jpg
Mortar fire control squad. Due to the very dense vegetation and forest in
Karelia the soldiers referred to it as the "green hell". Fighting distances could
be down to 10 meters.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/saamajarvi_4foton.jpg
From a private photo album, Säämäjärvi battlefield where my grandfather
got injured and later died from his injuries. In the batallions war diary there are
two events, either a Soviet artillery barrage that lasted from 9 to 15 or the following
attack from Soviet troops and the battle that lasted hours. Their attack was
repulsed with several hundred of dead Red Army soldiers. But then my grandfather
had already been carried away to a first-aid station. Being injured by the barrage feels
more probable.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/saamajarvi.jpg
Reposting this, on the top photo I think one of the dudes is my grandfather,
note the 20 mm Lahti anti-tank gun. In his papers it says "anti-tank man", which I
assume mean he served as a crew member on one of those. And one of the men
sure as hell look like him. Irritating to not actually know.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/hjaltegravfalt.jpg
Where my grandfather lies, my hero. Because of urbanization after the war
the graveyard have more dead than the village has people today.

Dalleer

02-26-2004, 01:42 PM

Personally, I think that those were some great photos.

Rtq

02-26-2004, 02:22 PM

http://www.warlinks.com/memories/images/uffz.jpg
That man on the right is Holger Pitkänen. Very good friend of Lauri Törni (later Larry Allan Thorne US army).

http://karjala.dyndns.org/metsapirtti/artikkelit/penttiahtiainen/jankajaak/janka57.jpg
...And this is where I live today. Honestly :D

OldRecon

02-26-2004, 04:11 PM

Don't know if I like the tone of this thread (a bit tensioned, and in particular I didn't like that "jew-comment" (and I'm certainly no champion of Israel at that just to make my point clear), but many good photos. And good histories too.
To be honest I don't think the Finns could have hold on forever if Stalin had been more determined with regards to conquering Finland, though the price for doing so wouldn't have been cheap for the Soviets (as the stalling of the Soviet summer offensive do show).
Yet though the price would be high in blood, the ability of the Soviets to swamp its neighbour with quantity (if it really wanted to) in itself is a sort of quality.
And in the beginning the Soviet summer offensive in fact made quite good ground up to Vipury/Vyborg, before the Finns rallied and dug in their heels.
Also think the Soviets suffered more from an inflexible style of command at ground level, compared to the Auftragstaktik way of fighting of its Finish and German opponent during WW-2, than from bad grunts.
Also think the Soviet superiority in numbers can somehow have worked against themselves on the densely wooded and watery Finish terrain.
In that to utilize the terrain to it's best, one would need some room to manouvre infantry flexibly, as artillery would be rather inflexible and difficult to employ in given terrain with the traction technology then available to the Soviets.
Though in general taking higher casualties than the units opposing them didn't mean that Soviet soldier could not also be tacticaly adept at a local level. Of which the first encounter between Soviet armour and German Königstiger tanks (in Poland during 1944) do provide a good example (7 Königstiger being knocked out from the side at short range by a single well camouflaged T-34/85 or something of that order).
And some of the units employed by the Soviets on the Northern front must in fact have been quite good. At least good enough to rout (almost anihilate) a Finish based SS ski jaeger battalion composed of Norwegian Nazis during the winter of 1943.
Think the Soviets in fact became sort of happy with having Finland as an intermediate buffer against the west. Though if the Finns hadn't resisted as well as they did, I'm in no doubt the Soviets would have gone for the "whole cake".
The expulsion of the German forces from Finland in the immediate aftermath of the peace threaty between Soviet Union and Finland, was also a rather bitter period for Finland, as the German forces employed the principle of scorced earth rather lavisly during the pullout of their forces to Northern Norway.
As for Larry Thorne, wasn't he one of those that escaped to Sweden shortly after the armistice with Soviet Union in the Stella Polaris operation?
Though for Finish proves during WW-2, the Norwegian army all the same based its defence of Northern Norway on the assumption of a secret aggreement between the Kekkonen government and the Soviets, that would allow Soviet troops to attack NATO forces in Norway from a (to us not so) unexpected flank (amongst other things we were told there were several gas stations up there in Northern Finland with a rather larger fuel storage capacity than would otherwise have been normal for such a sparsely populated area). NATO even had contigency plans for nuking several designated road connections/chokepoints in Northern Finland, in case the Soviets should try the "unexpected" flank option.
The Finns were also rather more vigilant on their western border than the Swedes. I've heard of at least one instance during the late 80's, where a Norwegian border patrol, straying over the border in bad weather near Skibotn, was aprehended by Finish border guards and detained for a week before being released and turned back to Norway.
By comparison during a company ski-march in the same area in really bad weather, we (the whole company) strayed off course allmost 2 km inside Swedish territory, before finding our way back, without any trouble from representatives of the Swedish government.
Anyway the peoples of all the Nordic countries, including Iceland and Finland despite language problems, are on generaly good terms with each other. And in fact I'm rather happy I live up here were we know how to get along peacefully, rather than in f.ex in the Middle-East where "compromise" is a "compromised" word.

http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia8.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia55.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia10.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia14.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia93.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia112.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia156.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia187.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia236.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia239.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia253.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia257.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia258.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia263.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia264.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia279.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia285.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia307.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia320.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia321.jpg
http://www.mannerheim.fi/sotavari/jsdia322.jpg

Uninen

02-27-2004, 02:09 PM

mustamato,
Thanks for the pics.. :) And to those that have nothing valuable to add to the topic, just keep out! :bash:

mustamato

02-27-2004, 05:54 PM

Scanned some more of those rather unique photos. All are from JR 35 Infantry
regiment, and from the book about them, "JR 35 sotatiellä 1941-1944" by a Paavo
Kairinen that after the war moved to US and became a colonel or something
there. He was a captain/major in the regiment during the war. Most of the photos
are from private photo albums from the soldiers in the regiment and not SA-photos
as those more famous ones.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/6kompani_lagarmat.jpg
6th Company command staff making food. I guess most finns/swedes of
today that have made their military service almost can live into this picture.
Same heated tents and all that is used still today.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/lighttank_kutisma.jpg
A light captured tank was used to support the Finnish soldiers at the battle of
Kutisma. Until it drove unto a large rock and dropped a track (unexperienced
driver probably that thought that it could do anything just because it had tracks).

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/regementetsendacivilaradio.jpg
Only civilian radio in the regiment in 1941, always crowded around it when
YLE made it news broadcasts. So the soldiers were usually quite up to date
about the major events out there in the world. Although there were wartime
censurship in Finland it was obviously not as heavy as in example Germany

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/ltn_pohjola.jpg
7th company commander, Ltn Aulis Pohjola. A big fanphoto of him because
of the companys actions during the battle of Kukkarjärvi (mentioned above),
my grandfathers company commander, I wonder if he liked him or not, but he
looks like a good fella

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/tvasoldater.jpg
Trench warfare from 1942. Soldier on the left holding a Soviet handgrenade,
soldier on right having one of those homemade periscopes made famous in the movie
"Tuntematon sotilas" from 1955

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/segelbomb.jpg
Using wind to send explosives as a present to the enemy

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/pipexplosion.jpg
Lucky dude

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/mannerheimduckar.jpg
Mannerheim ducking for a Soviet anti-tank grenade missing him with a couple
of meters. As mentioned Mannerheim had a habit of making unexpected visits
at the front to personally check out how the unit commanders were handling
things. A first class officer and commander, in contrast to Stalin that only made
visits to the front in the propaganda. In real life he was never close to the front

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/patrull.jpg
A recon patrol sent out behind the front, during the mission a 12-man Soviet
squad was finished of. Not only special recon soldiers were sent out on missions
like this. But often (like this one) a officer handpicked regular soldiers he wanted
for a mission. All being volunteers and often very physically fit.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/dubbelpost.jpg
Double post outside Poventsa (where the regiment had its position during
the trenchwar phase). Both sides sent out patrols to kidnap soldiers to interrogate,
having two men at each post was a kind of try to prevent soldiers from getting
napped over to the other side. Also note the construction, if one soldier was unlucky
enough to get a mortargrenade in his head the other one would still be alive.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/axelmakterna.jpg
Such a bad ass photo. "Allies" making a visit at the regiment. The japanese
officer later became Japans highest military commander.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/120mmgrk.jpg
Trench warfare, mortar has it´s firing coordinated already ready if the Ruskies
tries out a attack or something. During this phase of the war there was usually
shot a couple of grenades each day to the other side. Intensive barrages was
only usual to cover own patrols trying something, and so forth

______________________

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/marskinmaja.jpg
http://www.marskinmaja.net/english/index.html <- From a excellent site