The Israeli barrier doesn't belong in court

[EvanL]

The International Court of Justice at The Hague will begin hearing arguments Monday on the legality of Israel's new security barrier. Whatever the rights or wrongs of the controversial barrier, the court is not the proper forum to examine the issue -- and not merely because the odds are stacked against Israel from the outset.

Thirty countries, including Canada, the United States, Russia and the members of the European Union, all rightly agree with Israel's position that this is a political issue that needs to be addressed through political means. They are staying clear of the proceedings, even though most of those same governments have voiced serious concerns over the route of whatIsrael calls its "terrorism-prevention fence." The fear is that the barrier could prove yet another major roadblock to an eventual negotiated peace settlement.

It is well recognized in international law that countries have a right to protect their borders, including building high walls, if they so desire. And it is understandable that Israel would want to create as large an impediment as possible to the suicide bombers who have often roamed freely into Israel from occupied territory. But the new barrier, which will be about 700 kilometres long when finished, does not faithfully adhere to the Green Line, the frontier that divided Israel from the West Bank until the 1967 war.

Instead, it juts deeply into the West Bank to include many Jewish settlements, isolating Palestinian towns and in some cases cutting off people's access to hospitals, schools, workplaces and sources of water. At certain points, the fence actually separates Palestinian farmers from their land. This has drawn the ire of the usually neutral International Red Cross, which yesterday called the barrier's placement a violation of humanitarian law.

Palestinian officials say Israel is engaged in a naked land grab under the guise of safety, while the Israelis insist they have no such intentions. The fence, they add, does not constitute Israel's version of a new permanent border, and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has said he will take into account the hardship to Palestinians in determining the location of future segments of the barrier. He has been under considerable pressure from the United States and other governments to reroute the wall away from Palestinian land altogether.

"Israel, like most Western and democratic countries, believes that this is a political issue which should not be dealt with by a judicial body like the international court," an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman said. "It not only could undermine the peace process, but also constitute a problematic precedent in the future for political issues being brought to the international court."

Indeed it could. But that has not stopped the Palestinians and their usual allies from seeking the imprimatur of a court ruling to buttress their case.

The court's task is to provide a non-binding advisory opinion to the United Nations General Assembly, which asked the judges to take up the matter urgently. The assembly, which has never failed to embrace an anti-Israel resolution, has already made up its mind that the fence is indefensible, although 74 countries abstained in the vote that sent the matter to the court. Most of the 13 nations that intend to make oral arguments next week happen to agree that Israel is wholly in the wrong. It is also obvious where three other interveners, the Palestinian Authority, the Arab League and the Organization of the Islamic Conference, stand.

Israel has the right to protect its citizens from terrorist attacks, but ultimately its best hope of doing that lies in a negotiated peace. No matter what the court decides -- and it may yet choose not to offer any opinion -- it will not help to get that process back on track.





Its their ****ing country! The ICC should stay out of it

[hank]

Evan - good post. Is this an article or just your thoughts? Either way, thanks

hank

[Caesar]

As a Canadian, I say that the wall is a violation of human rights and liberty. I can't beleive the world stays passive and most of the great coutries such as the US, France... support both camps with weaponry.

[UoUo]

As a Canadian, I say that the wall is a violation of human rights and liberty. I can't beleive the world stays passive and most of the great coutries such as the US, France... support both camps with weaponry.

Human rights my ass.
When my friends dies in the street..in pizza restrunt..in a bus and Act...the only thing i can think about is how to stop those basterd that Doing this.

[UkrainianAmerican]

ICC is discrediting itself already. And people why wonder why U.S. withdrew its support...

[UkrainianAmerican]

As a Canadian, I say that the wall is a violation of human rights and liberty. I can't beleive the world stays passive and most of the great coutries such as the US, France... support both camps with weaponry.
You should be happy with the fact that counter terrorism effirtsdont include deporting all "jordyptians", to Montreal.

[IDFM203]

As a Canadian, I say that the wall is a violation of human rights and liberty. I can't beleive the world stays passive and most of the great coutries such as the US, France... support both camps with weaponry.yep you as a Canadian that doesn’t have homicide bombers blowing up your café’s or strip clubs on st Catharine street, or blowing up restaurants on Sherburke street or blowing up busses or on you metro there, yeah I cant believe you actually have the gull to comment on how Israel should defend themselves from your safety of Mount royal ;)

When the world stops homicide bombers then we will listen to others about how we should build our security anti terror fence.

Or to put it more for you, when you ask Israel for their advice and consent on how to deal with the separatists and that whole issue, I guess Israel will then turn to you to listen to what you have to say about our problems and security.

Shalom :D

[One?]

Have we forgotten the berlin wall that easily?

[hank]

As a Canadian, I say that the wall is a violation of human rights and liberty. I can't beleive the world stays passive and most of the great coutries such as the US, France... support both camps with weaponry.

What definition do you plan on using? Canada's definition is different than even the USA's definition. Personal opinion about nat lib and human right are not the answer b/c consensus is such a problem. Also, just b/c you think it wrong does not give you that ability to enforce your view.

Statements like yours are easy to make, hard to enforce, and impossible to define.

hank

[IDFM203]

I forgot to add…….


of the great coutries such as the US, France... support both camps with weaponry.first of all great country and you put in France? :roll: rofl rofl

Secondly France doesn’t provide anything to Israel.....perhaps you meant to hamas or other Palestinian terrorist group? ;) :roll:

Is that what you meant p-) :roll:

Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

Have we forgotten the berlin wall that easily?First of all, over 80 percent of the security anti terror fence is yes a fence!!!

Secondly the Berlin wall was not the same reason as what Israel has in wanting to stop what was before, almost daily or weekly homicide bomber attacks in restaurants, busses, cafes, disc etc....

Shalom :D

[Javehn]

hank , a golden letters coming out of your keyboard .
I have some clip done by Foreign Ministry of Foreign affairs about this matter . It is done by Mongoloid children working in MOFA, but what the hell . I will dig it , at put it here .

[Javehn]

Here it is : http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/fence.html

[EvanL]

Have we forgotten the berlin wall that easily?First of all, over 80 percent of the security anti terror fence is yes a fence!!!

Secondly the Berlin wall was not the same reason as what Israel has in wanting to stop what was before, almost daily or weekly homicide bomber attacks in restaurants, busses, cafes, disc etc....

Shalom :D
Well not now, France has supported Israel with weaponry. i believe you guys still have Mirage F1's, and you also developed a different version of the mirage. I believe it is the Kfir? Also France supplied you with the Uranium to develop your Nukes.
On another note. I think the fence is necessary. It may isolate the Palestinian people more than now, but it is necessary to prevent the types of suicide attacks that are mounted from gaza and the west bank on a monthly basis. used to be daily.
I can only pray that this makes it safer for my friends in Israel and their familys.

[IDFM203]

Have we forgotten the berlin wall that easily?First of all, over 80 percent of the security anti terror fence is yes a fence!!!

Secondly the Berlin wall was not the same reason as what Israel has in wanting to stop what was before, almost daily or weekly homicide bomber attacks in restaurants, busses, cafes, disc etc....

Shalom :D
Well not now, France has supported Israel with weaponry. i believe you guys still have Mirage F1's, and you also developed a different version of the mirage. I believe it is the Kfir? Also France supplied you with the Uranium to develop your Nukes.
On another note. I think the fence is necessary. It may isolate the Palestinian people more than now, but it is necessary to prevent the types of suicide attacks that are mounted from gaza and the west bank on a monthly basis. used to be daily.
I can only pray that this makes it safer for my friends in Israel and their familys. good post there Evan :D

no I know all about France help before 1967....I don’t think he was referring to that!!


Anyways one more thing on the security anti terror fence.

In the past four years of all those homicide bomber attacks against Israeli civilian man women and children, not one homicide bomber came from Gaza.....................can you guess why? ;)

Shalom :D

[Javehn]

Dir Sir IDFM , can you help me , please ??

I have been talled that Israel is building an Apartehid sepparation wall between Palestine and them , in order to starve the Palestinian people , and then take their land . I found a picture on the net conserning this matter, but unfortunatly i can't see the great 10 metter wall . Can you please help me find the wall ? Something is really strange here . I don't understand it .

http://electronicintifada.net/artman/uploads/wall103.jpg

[tooms]

I forgot to add…….


of the great coutries such as the US, France... support both camps with weaponry.first of all great country and you put in France? :roll: rofl rofl

Secondly France doesn’t provide anything to Israel.....perhaps you meant to hamas or other Palestinian terrorist group? ;) :roll:

Is that what you meant p-) :roll:

Shalom :D

first:

we supply anything to you because we refused to sell you weapons since the 70's

i wonder why you give the nickname "Shahak" to the mirage III in the 60's

second: if you have the atomic bomb , its thanks to France which provided the uranium and the engineers who explained you how to build reactors

if France is not a great country, so is Israel.

[Uninen]

]first of all great country and you put in France? :roll: rofl rofl

:petting:

IDFM203,

France is about the only reason why nobody ever has supported Israel.. as they provided you with your nuclear weapons and Jericho mrbm:s. And also, they provided you with the technology to build and design your own weapons..

You should not bash them like average redneck from Texas, but you should be thankful to them.. :|

Futhermore:

Think about 1967 and six-day-war.. with out modern French aircrafts and their tanks, you would have been fighting that war with your bare hands.. :cantbeli:

[Ballistic]

As a Canadian, I say that the wall is a violation of human rights and liberty. I can't beleive the world stays passive and most of the great coutries such as the US, France... support both camps with weaponry.

Take the place of an Israeli during a terrorist attack, see the horror it causes and the death, then think again about how many lives will be saved by that wall. It's nice that people all over the world can critisize Israel over it's policies in a situation they couldnt possibly have a clue about except for what they see on the news and read in the paper in the comfort of their home safe from terror. I'm all for it, if it stops the killing over there, then great.

[Uninen]

--

http://www.cpt.org/albums/album10/34_Qalqilyiah_Wall.jpg
Israeli "security" wall, more heavily build than Berlin wall..

--

:|

[IDFM203]

To Uninen :petting: ;)

Yes again if he was referring to that I would not have made my comment, I though he was referring to now.

I know all about before 1967.

Yes they provided with early help (as well as Israeli scientists also providing some help in return) but after 1967, they completely shut out Israel in “surrendering” to the Arabs wishes and Israels nuclear and arms program has evolved much much more without their initial help.


As for me bashing, believe me, to lecture me on bashing after the “abuse” that Israel takes in France is hypocritical!!!


Again we aren’t talking about in the past (btw most of their stuff to Israel wasn’t free, but Israel paid for them!!) and yes I do remember that and have in fact talked about that on this forum before, but since 1967 they have been against Israel (besides attitudes, they have provided Israel’s enemies with all sorts of weapons) and ceasers comment before I took to mean nowadays and not what was once along time ago.

Shalom :D

[Javehn]

No , UNI , allow me correct you .
This is "GREAT WALL"

http://electronicintifada.net/artman/uploads/wall103.jpg

What you show is in places where our good naighboors can do "pau pau " on they beloved cousins . You know , some shootin here , some shootin there . Sorry to dissapoint you . Take care UNI . ;)

DAMN , our cousins PROPAGANDA Mashine works very well ...
I wish our would work like that .

Some story : I drove on one of the main roades in my country last week . I could see Qalqilia , and damn that was spooky . If it's not the wall there , i bet some yound Pali cousin would sit on some roof , smoking Ganja and shooting his PK on my beloved ROVER . But what do i know ... I just live here .

Another little , and ofcorse unknown fact to our Europian friends : The fence would allow IDF to left Palestinian cities , after 3 long years . At last they will have piece there , and perhaps even it would be start to 2 separate nations . But no , little kids love to be selfish : You give them a finger , and they would love to take the hand . They don't know what they want themselfes , as long as it would be against Israel deads .

So , my Europian friends , that is it .

[S'13]

--

http://www.cpt.org/albums/album10/34_Qalqilyiah_Wall.jpg
Israeli "security" wall, more heavily build than Berlin wall..

--

:|

97% is a fence so it's not correct to call it a "wall".

[Uninen]

IDFM203,

You have to remember:

The deals in UN and with USA didnt allow anykind of nuclear weapons related tranfers, and France broke the rules, for YOU. :|

Be thankful.

--

Javehn,

Sorry no..

The pic i gave to you is of the security wall.. and great part of it is to be build to that standard..

Thats just a fact..

But its not like im crying here "wolf" or calling it as "apartheid wall".. ;)

Im cool with it.. for now.. as long as you dont expel those arabs that actually live in Israel out of there.. (those that are your citizens..)

[Javehn]

UNI , are you arguing with me about our fence ? Waw , should i laugh or cry ???
Have you read what i wrote ???? NO WALLLLLLLLLLLLL
FFFFEEEEENNNNNNCCCCCEEEEE

Wall in the build areas near Israeli infrastructures .
Damn ....

[Uninen]

Javehn,

You call it a fence, ill call it a wall.. big difference.. :P

[S'13]

IDFM203,

You have to remember:

The deals in UN and with USA didnt allow anykind of nuclear weapons related tranfers, and France broke the rules, for YOU. :|

Be thankful.

Who said we are not thankful?!

The French also gained a lot from their relations with us. Israeli scientists made significant contributions to France's nuclear research capability (which was at a similar level as Israel's).
Israel provided valuable intelligence to France when instability spread through French colonies in North Africa, and collaborated with France (and the UK) in planning and staging the Suez Canal-Sinai operation against Egypt in October 1956.

Regretfully these good relations ended when France placed an embargo on Israel after the Six Day War.

[Uninen]

Yeah.. :(

We good peoples of Europe and Israelis surely need to get better relations..

**** the oil sheiks and Texas "oil crew".. lets work together.. ;)

But then again.. Israel has good relations with lets say with Germany and Finland.. even in matters of defence.. ;)

Lots of weapons and cash moving around there.. knowledge too.. :)

[Fox2]

As an American who has been to Israeli (both Israeli and Palestinian parts), I support Israel's right to defend itself. And I support this security measure.

If these claims of Israel "grabbing land" with this fence are true (which I doubt), then I would hope and have confidence they would make it right.

[hank]

Javehn, thanks for the kind words. Don't get too carried away though, I am not completely on the bandwagon, but an int'l court is not an answer b/c there simply is no standard. Is it a good idea? Not for me to say. Is the solution I would choose? No. Do I think Israel has a right to do it? Absolutely. Whatever the answer is, it will not be reached at the Hague.

hank

[tooms]

Who said we are not thankful?!

The French also gained a lot from their relations with us. Israeli scientists made significant contributions to France's nuclear research capability (which was at a similar level as Israel's).
Israel provided valuable intelligence to France when instability spread through French colonies in North Africa, and collaborated with France (and the UK) in planning and staging the Suez Canal-Sinai operation against Egypt in October 1956.

Regretfully these good relations ended when France placed an embargo on Israel after the Six Day War.

USA banned some materials we needed to devellop the Bomb so we got them through you and israel's nuclear research wasn't/isn't at the same level
but i agree they was a big cooperation against Nasser or in colonies and the embargo was disproportionate

[IDFM203]

IDFM203,

You have to remember:

The deals in UN and with USA didnt allow anykind of nuclear weapons related tranfers, and France broke the rules, for YOU. :|

Be thankful.


No what you have remember is that most of the arms that Israel got before 1967 from France, Israel paid for them.

As for Nukes well again, as S13 wrote.

The French also gained a lot from their relations with us. Israeli scientists made significant contributions to France's nuclear research capability (which was at a similar level as Israel's).
Israel provided valuable intelligence to France when instability spread through French colonies in North Africa, and collaborated with France (and the UK) in planning and staging the Suez Canal-Sinai operation against Egypt in October 1956.


And yes I am thankful for that the earlier relationship (and in the initial help with the nuclear program, though again Israel has evolved greatly on its own in that field since that initial help) and I have brought it up before on this forum.


Something interesting though, your not French nor Israeli yet your telling me to be thankful, it would be like someone who is neither European or American, telling you as a European to stop sounding ungrateful and be thankful to the U.S. for over fifty years of them having thousands of their own troops and spending over 130 billion a year on defense of Europe to ensure that you don’t all speak Russian and be dirt poor where as now, it allowed you build your small little “postcard” militaries (not all of europe but most countries) and to build great economies, basically at the expense of U.S. protection and lives.

Yes before you lecture others about being thankful, follow your own advice!!



As for the security anti terror fence

You can term it all you want based on the selective media that you see, I cant stop that, however here are the facts about this security fence.

Yes the pic of what you have exists however only Less than 3% of the fence will be constructed of concrete and of what you brought down.

It is only in places where there is high population density between both populations and the concrete sections are intended not only to stop terrorists from infiltrating, but also to block them from shooting at Israeli vehicles traveling on main highways alongside the pre-June 1967 line, at nearby Jewish residential areas, and at other targets (which has happened before). In a few cases, because of the density of housing and other construction in the area, the building of a fence is impossible and, therefore, a concrete barrier becomes necessary.



More than 97% of the planned 720 km. (480 mile) anti-terrorist fence will consist of a chain-link fence system.

Like this

http://www.securityfence.mod.gov.il/Pages/Images/matara2.jpg

http://www.securityfence.mod.gov.il/Pages/Images/DSC_0075.jpg

http://www.securityfence.mod.gov.il/Pages/Images/bitzua11.jpg

But of course if you want to rely on your European selective media then I cant help you, but what I presented above about this fence are the facts of it….regardless if what you see on TV are just the 3 percent of it.


Anyways despite all this, Shalom to you :D

[S'13]

Who said we are not thankful?!

The French also gained a lot from their relations with us. Israeli scientists made significant contributions to France's nuclear research capability (which was at a similar level as Israel's).
Israel provided valuable intelligence to France when instability spread through French colonies in North Africa, and collaborated with France (and the UK) in planning and staging the Suez Canal-Sinai operation against Egypt in October 1956.

Regretfully these good relations ended when France placed an embargo on Israel after the Six Day War.

USA banned some materials we needed to devellop the Bomb so we got them through you and israel's nuclear research wasn't/is at the same level
but i agree they was a big cooperation against Nasser or in colonies and the embargo was disproportionate

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Israel/Isrhist.html


At this time France's nuclear research capability was quite limited. France had been a leading research center in nuclear physics before the war, but had fallen far behind developments in the US, the USSR, Britain, and even Canada. Israel and France were thus at a similar levels of expertise at the time, and it was possible for Israeli scientists to make valuable contributions.

[Uninen]

:)

USA has never done nothing of the kind for me or my nation, remember.. i am a Finn.

We have been forced to keep our own back.. :|

We fought and won CCCP in ww2. :|

Britain was even at war with us.. :cantbeli:

Backing Soviets in their efferts to annihilate us, a democratic nation.. :-*$

Luckily and trough great pain and effort, they failed.

Oh, btw.. CCCP won the war against Nazis, not the USA.. D-DAY just forced the wars end little sooner.. maybe 2 months.. :hug:

[Uninen]

And about Israeli nuclear weapons:

Dimonas reactor was designed and build in France.

Futhermore, this same reactor still supplys your nuclear weapons program with weapons grade material. ;)

(period.)

[IDFM203]

Ok lets have some fun :D

Ok forget about the rest of Europe for now (where for sure my arguments there stand)

Ok about you tiny nation of Finland…


First if you read carefully, I didn’t say a word about ww2….I talked after that.

What happened in ww2 and what the U.S. contributed or if it didn’t fight there, how things would have turned out is a whole other debate which I will leave for another time or for others.


Let me ask you this.

If the U.S. never had any bases in Europe and never had thousands of their soldiers there in protection of europe, or spend over 130 billion a year in defense……..do you believe that Finland would have the economy it has now and for the past fifty years and have the small little “postcard” military that it has now?? Or do you think the soviets would have concurred and occupied all, and you all would be speaking Russian and living off small pieces of meat and potatoes, etc…

Just curious to hear what you think ;)

Shalom :D

[tooms]

don't mess with finland! its a great country

and please , don't attack on this way because this topic is going to degenerate

[IDFM203]

And about Israeli nuclear weapons:

Dimonas reactor was designed and build in France.

Futhermore, this same reactor still supplys your nuclear weapons program with weapons grade material. ;)

(period.) yes and for the thousandth time :roll: , we remember that initial help (and they should remember our help to them as well), but after 1967, that reactor (and others ;) ) have evolved with mostly Israeli designs and Israeli scientific knowledge and has expended much more then the small beginnings that France helped out with.

What has been going on in Dimona since the early help of France before 1967, is not French designs or France help but its Israel’s (or some material allegedly from south africa)

And again “The French also gained a lot from their relations with us. Israeli scientists made significant contributions to France's nuclear research capability (which was at a similar level as Israel's).
Israel provided valuable intelligence to France when instability spread through French colonies in North Africa, and collaborated with France (and the UK) in planning and staging the Suez Canal-Sinai operation against Egypt in October 1956.”

(period) ;)


Shalom :D

[Uninen]

There has been no US bases here, and propably wont even be.. ever.. so much about it having a good effect on my nations economy..

Actually why my nations economy has been as good as it has been largely comes from the fact that we had to pay CCCP "for war damages".. and so, we had to build all kinds of factories during 40s and 50s so that we would make what ever they demanded.. and we made them all kinds of ****.. but after we had paid much they pardoned the rest.. and we still had the factories, so we could start to produce products in them for our own benefit.. so if we have anybody to thank for its CCCP.. OUR ENEMY in war, friend in peace.. ;)

And what becomes to Soviets over running Europe, thats just well you know.. Soviet armed forces have been always about defence and not about power projection like USAs forces.. :P

[IDFM203]

don't mess with finland! its a great country

and please , don't attack on this way because this topic is going to degenerateI am not messing with Finland per say, hell Israel and Finland defense industries get along (they like our products ;) )

I am just responding here to some of their countrymans rhetoric!!

btw, this isn’t degenerating (ok yet ;) ) to anything, hell me and Uninen get along quite well here ;) :D


We are just having a lively discussion, that’s all ;)

Shalom :D

[Uninen]

(period) ;)


Shalom :D

Ok,

I was just pointing out that the French gave you the base from which to start.. can we agree on that?

I aint claiming anything else..

And i know all about our fancy laser enrichment systems etc.. thats your own unique and patented thing.. ;)

[IDFM203]

There has been no US bases here, and propably wont even be.. ever.. so much about it having a good effect on my nations economy.. And what becomes to Soviets over running Europe, thats just well you know.. Soviet armed forces have been always about defence and not about power projection like USAs forces.. :P ahh nice diversionary tactic here ;) :roll: , but you know I never said bases in finalnd..



Ok lets see, Hmmm so the soviets never occupied other nations in Europe, it only stayed in its old Russian borders and only wanted to stay there ;) :roll: :roll:

Listen while U.S. bases and troops were perhaps not in tiny Finland, it was in other parts of Europe and if those would have not been there and as a result thoese European nations would fall under the sphere of soviet communism, its not like Finland would have been spared that fate as well.


About the nukes and france, I already said everything (at least twice already)……….nuff said!! (go read over my posts in this thread to see what I agree or disagree with)




And i know all about our fancy laser enrichment systems etc.. thats your own unique and patented thing.. ;) not all of it, but yes a lot of what Israel made, it made and developed from its own laboratories and from its own scientists.

Hell what the U.S., Britain, France, Russia, etc… and their nuclear programs, all of those countries didn’t make everything themselves or patent everything themselves individually as well ;)

Shalom :D

[Caesar]

Human rights my ass.
When my friends dies in the street..in pizza restrunt..in a bus and Act...the only thing i can think about is how to stop those basterd that Doing this.

Don't you understand it's a vicious circle? When an extremist kills himself and 20 other israeli people, you respond with aerial raids on village and kill 3 times more people. Then, 2 weeks later, another suicide bomber appears.

Don't you understand that it will never stop. It's really a big mess.

The answer is to be able to live with your neighbour. How can you do that with a barrier?

A fence or a wall, it's the same thing. Both are made to prevent people to pass through it. Stop arguing about a wall or a fence damnit. I personnaly don't think it will help. If someone is crazy enough to kill himself on a bus, then a barrier won't stop him.

Finally, IDFM203, I was refering to now and before. If you read carefully, I said both camps. I was also refering to the Great 7. Who are you also to make fun of France? Everyone said it right, France helped your country more than they should ahve done.

[IDFM203]

Don't you understand it's a vicious circle? When an extremist kills himself and 20 other israeli people, you respond with aerial raids on village and kill 3 times more people. Then, 2 weeks later, another suicide bomber appears. ok lets talk about this.

Before a year and half ago, there was this cycle of their attack and our response and yes there was a homicide attack almost weekly or daily, now the IDF has gone in extensively and with the security fence now (which has already stopped a few homicide bomber attacks, and its not even fully completed yet) there are attacks much less frequent (understatement).

Anyways as for cycle, go read my sigline as to the reality of Israel stopping to respond or to defend itself.



The answer is to be able to live with your neighbour. How can you do that with a barrier? yes in theory that is a great answer, but in reality when you have large elements of Palestinians that don’t accept Israelis right to be there and want the whole Israel (not just the BS they only sprout in English, about only the west bank and gaza), well that’s not a practical reality now.

Right now Israel has to deal with the real reality (and not living in wishful dreamland) of what was constant homicide attacks on its citizens and needs to have a way to curb them and this has in fact done that.

Again Gaza has had a fence for years now and not a single homicide bomber has come from there!!!





Finally, IDFM203, I was refering to now and before. If you read carefully, I said both camps. I was also ok yes we went over this, ok France helped before 1967!! After 1967 is a whole (and opposite) story.
If you are saying things other then what I just said now, then say it and we will talk about it.

[hank]

Point taken IDMF203 - but you at least recognize that there is no way to SOLVE the problem b/c the palestinians will never admit your right to be there and you will never give up your right, right? That's what dude was trying to say. I ain't saying you are wrong, just understand that this wall/fence/whatever will possibly help the symptoms but cannot deal with the underlying problem. It is like the difference between a good bandaid and penicillin. Both will help and maybe even are necessary, but only one can cure the infection.

hank

[Caesar]

Thank you for clearing most of my concerns.

As for the France thing, yes, it's what I was talking about. You mentioned 3 times about what I was talking about, that's why I cleared it, despite the fact that we went over it.

As for the thing about your signature, I'd like someone to tell me what percentage of Palestinians are actual suicide bombers. According to me, I'd say less than 5%. I know, it's 5% to much but it's untrue to say that Palestinians are all extremists. (is it what your were refering in your sig when using the word "Palestinians" to describe the extremists and suicide bombers.

Finally, I'd like to know what you think about Sharon's decision to evacuate Gaza's "band"? (sp?)

Thank you

[IDFM203]

Point taken IDMF203 - but you at least recognize that there is no way to SOLVE the problem b/c the palestinians will never admit your right to be there and you will never give up your right, right? That's what dude was trying to say. I ain't saying you are wrong, just understand that this wall/fence/whatever will possibly help the symptoms but cannot deal with the underlying problem. It is like the difference between a good bandaid and penicillin. Both will help and maybe even are necessary, but only one can cure the infection.

hankyes exactly get this clear, this wall is not a solution nor is military action any solution!! (I can hear the shock of some members on this forum already ;) )

This isn’t about solutions per say, solution to the conflict is from the Arab world and from the Palestinian society finally internally and genuinely recognizing Israel’s right to exist (and spare me their quotes in English, which do not represent any true feelings) even in the pre 1967 borders.

Right now that is not a reality and it wasn’t one during the Oslo years (when there were homicide attacks even when Israel pulled out of over 95 percent of all their towns and villages) or even when they rejected Baraks offer and not even returned to negotiate a different stance but yet started a war (albeit a LIC)


The fence and military actions wasn’t any policy per say, and in fact the fence or major military action didn’t take place in the first two years of this conflict, the building of this fence and the bigger military action after the Passover massacre, was forced on us by no choice of almost constant terrorist and homicide attacks in Israeli cities.

Again Gaza has a fence and there are no homicide bombers coming from there, soon there will be less coming from the west bank as well (actually already its much less then what it used to be, even though the attempts haven’t stopped)


A solution I think is simply not a practical reality now or in the near future no matter what Israel does or doesn’t do, even pulling out of the west bank and gaza will not solve anything.


Shalom :D

[hank]

We're cool. Knock yourself out with the wall. I hope it helps.

hank

[IDFM203]

We're cool. Knock yourself out with the wall. I hope it helps.

hankWith the fence ;)

Yeah and you knock yourself out with your wall (or is it also a fence for I think I saw pics of both?) at your Mexican border ;)

P.S. I am glad that we are cool :D

[hank]

I was being sincere. You guys know better than us. If you decide that the wall will help save palestinian AND Israeli lives then you should build it. It is easy for someone not facing daily suicide bombings to say don't build it. Just understand that the wall won't make the people on the other side hate you less. You do understand that, so go ahead.

The rationale for a Mexican wall is totally different. I don't recall hearing about Mexicans coming acroos the border to McAllen, TX and killing innocent civilians. If that happened and we decided to build a wall, I would hope that you would support us.

I truly, sincerely hope that the wall helps. Sorry if my other post seemed flippant or a joke.

hank

[S'13]

As for the thing about your signature, I'd like someone to tell me what percentage of Palestinians are actual suicide bombers. According to me, I'd say less than 5%. I know, it's 5% to much but it's untrue to say that Palestinians are all extremists. (is it what your were refering in your sig when using the word "Palestinians" to describe the extremists and suicide bombers

A survey which was conducted in 2001 (by Palestinians) indicated that 54.8% of Palestinians would support suicied bombings even if Israel changed its policy in the territories, what does that tell us?

[IDFM203]

As for the thing about your signature, I'd like someone to tell me what percentage of Palestinians are actual suicide bombers. According to me, I'd say less than 5%. I know, it's 5% to much but it's untrue to say that Palestinians are all extremists. (is it what your were refering in your sig when using the word "Palestinians" to describe the extremists and suicide bombers.

Finally, I'd like to know what you think about Sharon's decision to evacuate Gaza's "band"? (sp?)

Thank you First I don’t think all of them are terrorists and I never said that (ok in my sig I talk in general but I don’t mean all)

As for “extremists”, first of all its not about those homicide bombers five percent, because much more are thwarted and are caught.

Secondly as for extremists, well its much more then 5 percent, just because they aren’t all blowing themselves up at Israeli civilians for those 72 virgins, doesn’t mean that only five percent exist.

Here is what I see, I see a Palestinian society where over 70 percent of them support them killing and targeting innocent civilians, I see a society never condemning that. I see a society that teaches their kids to hate Israel at their schools and that Israel has no right to exist (again spare me the English quotes from them to the gullible western press).
So however we term it, or what percentage we give it, I say there are large elements of the Palestinian society (and the Arab world) that hasn’t internally and genuinely recognized Israel’s right to exist, even on the pre 1967 borders.


As for gaza, in truth I don’t give two ****s about that land per say (yes biblically its ours but that’s for when the messiah comes if one belives that so thats not why I cling on to that land and religion has no play as to why I think we need to keep that land), however I am very opposed to it, only because of the message that Arabs will take to it. It will only embolden them to fight and kill for more. It’s the same with the west bank after that they will just fight for more (again when I say they, I mean not all but lots of them)



Ok you asked me questions; I have one of my own to you. What do you think about the smashing of the windows and the whole riot by Muslims and by some non Muslim Canadian in a Montreal university about two years ago when a former Israeli prime mionster wanted to speak?

It’s a honest question to you.

Shalom :D

[hank]

" say there are large elements of the Palestinian society (and the Arab world) that hasn’t internally and genuinely recognized Israel’s right to exist, even on the pre 1967 borders"

I hope you are right about this. If you are then a solution is inevitble even if far off.

"What do you think about the smashing of the windows and the whole riot by Muslims and by some non Muslim Canadian in a Montreal university about two years ago when a former Israeli prime mionster wanted to speak? "

I know you weren't asking for my opinion, but I'll give it anyway. Anti-semitism by any other name or action is wrong. period. So is anti-muslim, anti-american, whatever. The sooner we all reaize this the better. Peaceful protest or political discourse about disagreement with Israeli policy is another matter.

I do still reserve the right to make French jokes though, so don't go there.


hank

[IDFM203]

I was being sincere. You guys know better than us. If you decide that the wall will help save palestinian AND Israeli lives then you should build it. It is easy for someone not facing daily suicide bombings to say don't build it. Just understand that the wall won't make the people on the other side hate you less. You do understand that, so go ahead. well I also understand that not building it isn’t going to change any attitudes as well.

Considering that, we need to build the fence to stop what was before almost daily or weekly homicide attacks in our cities and towns and busses.


The rationale for a Mexican wall is totally different. I don't recall hearing about Mexicans coming acroos the border to McAllen, TX and killing innocent civilians. If that happened and we decided to build a wall, I would hope that you would support us.


I truly, sincerely hope that the wall helps. Sorry if my other post seemed flippant or a joke.

Hank Of course I know the rationales are different, we both do what we must do in our perspective (which our’s are much much different) situations, is all I am saying.

Anyways I was just having a little fun there ;)




I truly, sincerely hope that the wall helps. Sorry if my other post seemed flippant or a joke. no need to apologize mate…..I got you. Perhaps because this is such a serious topic for us, my tone is reflecting that. I didn’t mean to convey any negative intentions towards your postings. I fully got you and I hope you now understand where we are coming from.

Shalom my friend :D

[hank]

Like I said we are cool. I have a little chip on my shoulder about the anti-semitism thing b/c I have sincerely anti-semite grandparents that embarass the crap out of me. So I try to be extra careful. :D

hank

[Uninen]

I do still reserve the right to make French jokes though, so don't go there.

hank

How about some "FREEDOM FRIES" rofl

(now that is a "French joke" that bites US of A to its own ass..) ;)

[IDFM203]

Like I said we are cool. I have a little chip on my shoulder about the anti-semitism thing b/c I have sincerely anti-semite grandparents that embarass the crap out of me. So I try to be extra careful. :D

hank Belive me buddy we are cool :D and I know you aren’t one. heck even if you were ;) , as I explained to you before, I wouldnt mind it that much, remember this time we get back up and respond ;) and not how it was in your grandfathers time :(

Shalom :D

[hank]

My grandparents have nothing against the French or the Finns so I have no such reservations about that stuff. I fart at you, you Finnish swine. I mock thee. Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time. How about that?

hank

[IDFM203]

I do still reserve the right to make French jokes though, so don't go there.

hank

How about some "FREEDOM FRIES" rofl

(now that is a "French joke" that bites US of A to its own ass..) ;)hey we have a montrealer here in Caesar, so its more like "FREEDOM PUTINES"(sp?) p-) rofl

[Caesar]

Ok you asked me questions; I have one of my own to you. What do you think about the smashing of the windows and the whole riot by Muslims and by some non Muslim Canadian in a Montreal university about two years ago when a former Israeli prime mionster wanted to speak?

Yeah I remember this event at Concordia University. I still think it's unacceptable, as if preventing someone to make an action here in Canada can resolve the conflict...
Though, it was unevitable and such things will happen again.

As for the poutines, we just call it poutines, no prefix. I was shocked when I heard the term Freedom Fries on the news. How could they?

[IDFM203]

Thanks for replying about that.


As for the poutines, we just call it poutines, no prefix. I was shocked when I heard the term Freedom Fries on the news. How could they? yeah I mean how dare they not call it “freedom poutines” ;) when it was most of Quebec (and I guess also a lot of Canada) that was also opposed to U.S. actions and they are a lot closer to the U.S. then France is p-)

Btw are you a French Quebecker? (sp?)

I mean you got your own little separatist thing going on…correct?

I guess its been relatively quiet (understatement) there all these years are you would have had Canadian troops with tanks in at the first sign of any trouble like they did in the early seventies….correct?

Shalom :D

[Caesar]

Thanks for replying about that.


As for the poutines, we just call it poutines, no prefix. I was shocked when I heard the term Freedom Fries on the news. How could they? yeah I mean how dare they not call it “freedom poutines” ;) when it was most of Quebec (and I guess also a lot of Canada) that was also opposed to U.S. actions and they are a lot closer to the U.S. then France is p-)

Btw are you a French Quebecker? (sp?)

I mean you got your own little separatist thing going on…correct?

I guess its been relatively quiet (understatement) there all these years are you would have had Canadian troops with tanks in at the first sign of any trouble like they did in the early seventies….correct?

Shalom :D

Yes, I am a French Canadian and yes, there's still that little separatist thing going on. In 1995, it resulted that YES: 49,5% and NO: 50,5%. Since then, it changed a lot for the NO, but considering what the Liberals are doing in Quebec, well... who knows?

For the last part, I think you are refering to the "quiet revolution" in the 70's. Some of our own version of extremist kidnapped a federal deputy and many bomb alerts were declared. P-E Trudeau, Prime Minister, sent troops in Quebec. It's called quiet because, besides that, no violence and murders occured.

It is as we are here in Quebec, silent people... In a way hopefully, because it could have resulted of something similar to what is happening where you live.

[IDFM203]

Thanks for your response.

You say no one was killed, I thought I read that one canadian Minster was killed by them..........I guess not as you say.

Anyways why did they send in the military with tanks and troops into Montreal? I am curious to know more about this.


P.S. So did you vote yes? ;)

Shalom :D

[Whistler]

As a Canadian, I say that the wall is a violation of human rights and liberty. I can't beleive the world stays passive and most of the great coutries such as the US, France... support both camps with weaponry.

Keep in mind the "As a Canadian" part.

I am a Canadian too, and no matter what I think I am not going to lecture the Israelis on how to protect themselves.

We Canadians have NO idea what they have to live through every day. The only thing close was that FLQ scare in the 70s, and that was a joke compared to what was going on in the middle east at that time.

[EvanL]

The FLQ did murder ppl. They even went as far as murdering a british diplomat. the ywere nothing less than terrorists.

[Pégase]

and as said De Gaulle :


vive le Québec !
vive le Québec libre !

yeah, it's time to free Québec from the tyranny of the anglo-saxons
peace ! ^^



and btw, did you just notice the (nasty) attempt of diversion by IDFM203 and his jews/israelis? pals at trying to divise the Canadiens here, and playing on the fiber of the good old French/English rivalry, so we forget and don't see anymore the original subject of this topic, ie the actual israeli politic in Palestine and quite dramatic Middle East situation ...

[Whistler]

The FLQ did murder ppl. They even went as far as murdering a british diplomat. the ywere nothing less than terrorists.

Nah, the British diplomat was released.

The one they murdered was a Quebec Govt minister.

They also murdered several innocent bystanders over the years while bombing mailboxes, coffee shops etc.

Nothing more than thugs, and if Quebec ever had a worthwhile cause the FLQ ruined it with their terrorism.

[Whistler]

and as said De Gaulle :


vive le Québec !
vive le Québec libre !

yeah, it's time to free Québec from the tyranny of the anglo-saxons
peace ! ^^


[/b]

Shut up France.

Good point though, at least the Quebecois actually stand up for what they believe in instead of rolling over and giving up like their Francophone cousins in Europe.

[Pégase]

Shut up France.

Good point though, at least the Quebecois actually stand up for what they believe in instead of rolling over and giving up like their Francophone cousins in Europe.

now u'll get it,
http://images.google.fr/images?q=tbn:-5HgNdCQj9YJ:www.informatuttonet.com/atlante/mappe-usa-canada/canada_Quebec_flag.gif p-)

try burning this one a**hole

[Pégase]

and with regard to this wall of the shame issue, I must say I'm quite happy that this mess is finally getting scrutiny by an international court

the hate feeds the hate, and this wall hurting mainly the civilian population,I think this can only create new hatred and developp the number of terrorists wannabees against Israel
u think u'll have less enemies, but instead u'll have more

furthermore, when we see some mossad operations, consisting in blowing the houses, killing sometime the innocent neighbourhoud with the real terrorist, taking/deporting male members of the families without presumption of innocence law !
sometime in front of the children !

if it's not innocent children that are killed during the too much frequent collateral damages !

according to me, at the end, the exactions are equal from the two sides

so I would give agreement for an UN intervention there, because I think this wall is a blatant violation of human rights, I mean, look at all the misery that brought the Berlin wall to whole german families !

[Whistler]

Shut up France.

Good point though, at least the Quebecois actually stand up for what they believe in instead of rolling over and giving up like their Francophone cousins in Europe.

now u'll get it,
http://images.google.fr/images?q=tbn:-5HgNdCQj9YJ:www.informatuttonet.com/atlante/mappe-usa-canada/canada_Quebec_flag.gif p-)

try burning this one a**hole

Why would I burn that when I have so many French flags laying around?

http://www.f1now.net/images/flags/white.jpg

rofl

Man you guys from France are still pretty pissed off about the British Army whooping you out of "Nouvelle France" oh so many years ago, eh??

[Caesar]

As a Canadian, I say that the wall is a violation of human rights and liberty. I can't beleive the world stays passive and most of the great coutries such as the US, France... support both camps with weaponry.

Keep in mind the "As a Canadian" part.

I am a Canadian too, and no matter what I think I am not going to lecture the Israelis on how to protect themselves.

We Canadians have NO idea what they have to live through every day. The only thing close was that FLQ scare in the 70s, and that was a joke compared to what was going on in the middle east at that time.

Just to tell you that I wasn't trying to lecture anyone by saying "As a Canadian". I said that so everyone understand that I'm not directly concerned, nothing more.

I know, this message was raw and not well explained, and I apologize.

[Whistler]

Ok, I think I understand what you mean.

My point is, its easy to complain about what the Israelis (or any country in that situation) does, but when it comes down to it, we live in a pretty peaceful country and don't know what its like over there.

Who knows, maybe if Canada had to deal with the same problems of terrorism every day, day after day, we'd build a wall too.

[Caesar]

Thanks for your response.

You say no one was killed, I thought I read that one canadian Minster was killed by them..........I guess not as you say.

Anyways why did they send in the military with tanks and troops into Montreal? I am curious to know more about this.


P.S. So did you vote yes? ;)

Shalom :D

Yes, I forgot to mention that Pierre Laporte, the kidnapped miniter, got killed. About the bomb alert, as someone said, most of them were jokes but the real bombs were in mailboxes, not in a discotheque or the metro. So there were no real victims cept the mailmen. hehe

You are very well informed. :)

Pierre-Elliot Trudeau sent the army in Quebec to retrablish order. Many other groups were protesting along with the FLQ, but not as rough, hopefully. It was "la loi des mesures de guerre" (translation?). You probably know what it means, but for the others, it means that the army and police could arrest anyone, anywhere, even if you were just walking in the street.

Years later, Quebecers still remember what P-E Trudeau did and we still don't approve his decision. Moreover, the legality is still in question wether he had the right to send the army with "la loi des mesures de guerre" or not.

Last year, the federal gvt rename the montreal airport into P-E Trudeau airport... Some will never learn. :|

I like this thread. Very respectful, good comments. That's great. :)

[Whistler]

Here is a good link for anybody interested in the October Crisis (FLQ) of 1970.

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-71-101/conflict_war/october_crisis/

It has video and radio reports from the CBC archives, so actual reports from the time.

Very interesting. I spent hours on that site the other day.

[Caesar]

Ok, I think I understand what you mean.

My point is, its easy to complain about what the Israelis (or any country in that situation) does, but when it comes down to it, we live in a pretty peaceful country and don't know what its like over there.

Who knows, maybe if Canada had to deal with the same problems of terrorism every day, day after day, we'd build a wall too.

You are right, we are very lucky here in Canada.

Though, ME, personally, I'd prefer to face the situation rather than hide it behind a barrier. I know, I live in a dream... :)

[Whistler]

[It was "la loi des mesures de guerre" (translation?). You probably know what it means, but for the others, it means that the army and police could arrest anyone, anywhere, even if you were just walking in the street.

Translation: War Measures Act.

For the non Canadians, Caesar summed it up, but you could think of it as the Canadian version of Martial Law.

Basically it suspends all liberties. Kind of scary that the Government can do that, very controversial.

[Fox2]

sometime in front of the children !

if it's not innocent children that are killed during the too much frequent collateral damages !

You have no idea what you are talking about. I mean that in as respectful a way as it can be said, but it is true.

Unless you have been there and talked to both sides of the conflict, seen both sides of that fence, your opinion is as credible as any other that is fed by the (mostly anti-Israeli) media.

Collateral damage? When a Palestinian homicide bomber attacks, civilian casualties are not collateral damage. They are the primary targets.

When Israelis retaliate, they target the terrorists. They don't go out looking for Palestinian babies and children to slaughter. Palestinians, however, do go out and look for innocent civilians to kill. That is what tips the scales for me.

The terrorist's cause is not to live together with the Israelis. It is not to coexist. The cause of the PLO and Hamas is to outright kill every Israeli man, woman, and child. I think the reason those who don't know the region find that hard to believe is that it seems so different to what we are used to. We can't imagine anyone could feel that way. But it is true.

I don't mean to offend, but it is probably inevitable.

[Sayeret]

Caesar wrote




As a Canadian, I say that the wall is a violation of human rights and liberty. I can't beleive the world stays passive and most of the great coutries such as the US, France... support both camps with weaponry.


I guess you don't realize that the wall saves more lives than it takes. The only liberty thw walls prevents the Palestinians from having is the liberty to go kill innocent Israelis. If you want the violence to continue then don't support the wall if you want it to stop, then support it. The reason the Palestinian terrorists hate it so much is because they can't get pass it. If the wall isn't in place then more Israeli operations will take place it will kill more Palestinian terrorists and more Palestinian terrorists will kill more innocent Israelis. The wall will reduce the fighting.

[Sayeret]

Uninen




Israeli "security" wall, more heavily build than Berlin wall..


You only showed part of the fence. Here a few other pictures that "really" look like the Berlin wall.


http://www.cpt.org/albums/album10/03_09_25_09_The_fence_with_roads_on_both_sides.sized.jpg


Heres another picture of a "Berlin like" wall.

http://www.cpt.org/albums/album10/03_09_25_01_Fence_cuts_a_swath_through_farmers_fields.sized.jpg


The part of the wall you showed was high in order to stop Palestinian snipers from firing down at Israeli civilians from towers or high rise buildings.

[Sixgun Symphony]

International Court?

More of the global government B/S.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Grabbing land?

Anyone that knows the history of the region knows that Palestine is a myth. Those Arabs there on the West Bank were called Jordanians before 1967.

"Palestinians" have never been a distinct people, they have never had a sovereign land called Palestine, Jerusalem has never been their capital, there is no Palestinian language or culture, and there is no Palestinian people. It is a myth created after the Jews liberated Jerusalem in 1967.

Mythical Palestine (http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/index5.htm)

IMHO, the terrorist insurgency or "Infatadah" will not end until there is a physical barrier between the Israelis and the Arab population. So the wall is good.

[Pégase]

http://www.f1now.net/images/flags/white.jpg




man, this is the Brit flag at Yorktown !
peace ! ^^


rofl

[Pégase]

what would you do if ppl were crushing your house, and the family car with a bulldozer ?
I mean for the widowed and the fatherless !

be realist, the poverty and the despair feeds the kamikazi recruiting

treat first the cause, not the symptoms !

I really think that this radicalisation of the Israeli politic can only give rise in the islamism radicalism by the victims of injustices


after saying that, I really don't find surprising that poll which was published that said some 60 percent of Europeans believed Israeli was the greatest threat to world peace

I don't see a solution to this escalation of the violence in the middle east :(


come on ppl, this is one of the biggest area of instability in the whole world, so why UN doesn't intervene here ! :|

[Sixgun Symphony]

treat first the cause, not the symptoms !


Agreed,

The Arab population should be deported. That will end the insurgency.

[Pégase]

treat first the cause, not the symptoms !


Agreed,

The Arab population should be deported. That will end the insurgency.

did you miss the Nuremberg court ?

[Lone Predator]

treat first the cause, not the symptoms !


Agreed,

The Arab population should be deported. That will end the insurgency.

did you miss the Nuremberg court ?

jeeze no kidding

[Javehn]

good morning everybody . New member here i see
Pegase , obviosly you know **** about what's going on there , so if you know how to activate "search" , please do that , and find Israel Palestine . Until then , don't write nothing here .

Something to your thoughts : The fence will allow Israeli army to leave Palestinian cities after 3 years , and can be a begining of a way to 2 separate countries . In which cases Israeli politics have been promised to move the outline of the fence , to Palestinian good . And if you think that the fence is hurting ONLY palestinian , sorry to say to you .Many Israeli roads in infrastructures are built in places , were now Israelies can't enter . In order to make 30 minutes drive , i will drive 3 hours . It is hearting Israelies as well , but as a security need it is working . So think about it .

You live in France with it's 300,000 Square kilometers , and how can you judge Israel then ? Offcorse someone will hurt from this , that's a tiny country with dense building . When i am driving in the main road of my country , i see Palestinian cities and my balls becoming smaller and smaller . I thank the wall separation there , and be shure that our beloved "cousins" would clime on some house near the road , and would fire on the cars passing there . They would do that without thinking twice , and unfortunatly i will have to call , that i somewhere now my neighbours better then you .

[Pégase]

Well not now, France has supported Israel with weaponry. i believe you guys still have Mirage F1's

actually it wasn't Mirage F1 but mainly Mirage III

and now, have a look at :
the Israeli Air-to-Air Victories in 1967 (http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_261.shtml) ;)

[Pégase]

and at the Israeli Air-to-Air Victories in 1967-1972 (http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_264.shtml)

[Sixgun Symphony]

treat first the cause, not the symptoms !


Agreed,

The Arab population should be deported. That will end the insurgency.

did you miss the Nuremberg court ?


Irrelevent,

The Arabs living on the West Bank region are Jordanians. So they are technically illegal aliens on Israeli soil. Thus they should be deported to Jordan.

Besides, the Jordan River makes a natural border. Easily defended when militarized. That will be the end of the PLO insurgency.

[Haiw]

I didn't feel like joining in this thread, and I'm not gonna join in the barrier mud-slinging anyway, but I couldn't help but correct some of the bullcrap our favorite looney produced again.


International Court?

More of the global government B/S.
A national court? Where people can sue people from other states? Bah... what's the use in that?!
Justice shouldn't have borders.


Agreed,

The Arab population should be deported. That will end the insurgency.
Didn't I tell you before it's a bad thing to rip-off Hitler's stuff?

[Fox2]

come on ppl, this is one of the biggest area of instability in the whole world, so why UN doesn't intervene here ! :|

Mainly because the UN is very biased and not as objective as one would hope.

What will end up happening is a committee (majority being from Arab countries) will vote the barrier is wrong without a second thought, because they can't be objective. To even consider helping the Israelis would make them traitors of their own people, in their eyes.

Believe me, I wish the UN was as objective and open-minded as we claim it to be, but that is not the case. As long as the United Nations is that lop-sided and corrupt, then UN intervention will not solve anything at all.

The situation in the Mid-East is a complex and dangerous one. The only way, I fear, it can be solved, is if both parties talk to each other and solve it themselves.

Unfortunately, that will be hard, as the Palestinian extremists do not care about coexisting, they just want Israel destroyed, no matter what. There are some Palestinians who wouldn't mind coexisting with the Israelis, but unfortunately, at least at the current time, they will never get a say. The more violent Palestinians make sure of that.

[Whistler]

http://www.f1now.net/images/flags/white.jpg




man, this is the Brit flag at Yorktown !
peace ! ^^


rofl

Ya, and its the French flag at ever OTHER battle since then...

[SeanAshi]

The Arabs living on the West Bank region are Jordanians. So they are technically illegal aliens on Israeli soil. Thus they should be deported to Jordan. The problem would be with the 1 billion Muslims in the world, they look at the Temple Mount and don't see the Kotel, all they see is the Dome of the rock, the 3rd holiest site in Islam, Its gotta happen sooner or later, begin rebuilding the Jewish Temple! Muslims have Mecca and Medina.

[Pégase]

Ya, and its the French flag at ever OTHER battle since then...



yeah, that's the problem when you learn history on Faux News you ignorant brainwashed moron

two words : Napoléon Bonaparte

yeah actually it was AFTER Yorktown





now I'm really fed up with this way to call and cry "anti-semitism" everytime there is the slightest critic towards the israeli politic

yeah 5 millions of jews have been exterminated during WW2, though ever with this, it doesn't give all the rights to Sharon and to the Israeli politic of today
and what about the soviet human loss of WWII then ?!

[Javehn]

It's Fox news , guy , not Faux .

1. You are the one who raised an issue of Holocaust . I don't see anybody else talking about this until now . And , yes , offcorse jews don't want this to return again (offcorse , many other people were died during WW2 , more then 30 million Russian died during WW2 . But in percentage , that's up to 40 percent of Jewish population in Europe , without engage in fighting . I don't know , but i am pretty hure that this should leave a scar on a nation for a long time . Personaly i resent all the issue of body count )

2. You think other politics would do better job then Sharon ? Please spare the world of "killing inocent " bull**** , our every day problem is different then yours . Show me politician that would do any better . It's also your total misunderstanding of Sharon deads , sence you see him as "Sabra and Shatila" master mind . He is very changed politician sence that time . The last thing he want's , is that he would be remembered that way .

And last question : Why is your finger pointed sollily on our politics ? If you talking about the context of Israel Palestine , you should point that finger as well , as on Palestinian officials, and most important of them is Arafak - the bigest threat to peace (and only because he earnes a great deal of money , on the conflict , and on the bloud of innocents from both sides ) .

[Pégase]

It's Fox news , guy , not Faux .



yeah Faux news, False news etc...

for the rest, the International Court of The Hague will get scrutiny about this soon, and I think that's a good thing

[IDFM203]

and btw, did you just notice the (nasty) attempt of diversion by IDFM203 and his jews/israelis? pals at trying to divise the Canadiens here, and playing on the fiber of the good old French/English rivalry, so we forget and don't see anymore the original subject of this topic, ie the actual israeli politic in Palestine and quite dramatic Middle East situation ... wow :cantbeli: :roll: with your ridicules conspirator mind, I am sure you are also convinced that me and my Jewish pals in the Mossad were behind that attempted assissination plot on Charles de Gaulle as well ;) :roll:

I mean as ridicules and as far out as that sounds, thats how your little (nasty) paragraph here sounds :roll:

I mean looking on it now its laughable that you think that I feel that this forum holds so much power on decisions that if only I can divert attention then everyone here or even the International court will be distracted :roll:


Anyways I normally wouldn’t respond to such garbage but considering that there were other Canadians that conducted themselves in a respectful manner here in this thread, I figured its best I clear up your ridicules and nasty attempt to paint me in a light that I wasn’t doing at all.


My response to Caeser was as such since I noticed he was from Montreal and it was an attempt to learn more about the issues that he has since there aren’t a whole lot of Montrealers on this forum. In no way was it to distract or to put a wedge between Canadians in the French English rivalry.

In fact my point later on which should have been self evident (which I am sure it was to other more mature members here) was that every nation is forced to deal with problems and sometimes those problems require a bit of force and its not for people sitting far away to necessarily judge with outright criticism if they aren’t going through those problems, and all I am pointing out was that in Canada in the early seventies there was a little violence (miniscule compared to what Israel has been facing) and yet the Canadians immediately sent in the troops with tanks into the city of Montreal and declared marshal law, and I can only imagine if that was the response, what it would be if there were constant homicide bomber attacks in their restaurants and in their busses, thus killing man women and children, what the Canadian government would do.

All this has nothing to do with my opinion on the French/English rivalry.

I was on main subject the whole time!!

Shalom :D

[citizen-k]

Uninen




Israeli "security" wall, more heavily build than Berlin wall..


You only showed part of the fence. Here a few other pictures that "really" look like the Berlin wall.


http://www.cpt.org/albums/album10/03_09_25_09_The_fence_with_roads_on_both_sides.sized.jpg


Heres another picture of a "Berlin like" wall.

http://www.cpt.org/albums/album10/03_09_25_01_Fence_cuts_a_swath_through_farmers_fields.sized.jpg


The part of the wall you showed was high in order to stop Palestinian snipers from firing down at Israeli civilians from towers or high rise buildings.

Reality? now thats a thought!

Israel is building a fence which will help us separate from the Palestinians - and that is what frightens them (Palestinians & Europeans) the most.

As we can all see it takes a long time to set up a proper border line - so instead of signing a peace agreement and suffer terror attacks while building the fence (as we did before) Israel is 1st building the fence - and then will get the hell out of "dumb ass's land".

Palestinians know that when that day will arrive it won't be easy to attack Israel - something European coutries won't stand either and thats why they all object to this fence.

[Pégase]

its not for people sitting far away to necessarily judge with outright criticism if they aren’t going through those problems


well I can't let you tell that, first because you are too close to have an unbiased view on the israelo-palestinian situation, only neutral people could give a fair judgement, and this need some distance
second there is actually a rise of the rows between the young muslims of arab origin and the jews in my country, every big imbalance in the Middle East have indirectly negative repercussions here
so you can't say that the results of the radicalism in the Sharon politic don't concerns us

[citizen-k]

its not for people sitting far away to necessarily judge with outright criticism if they aren’t going through those problems


well I can't let you tell that, first because you are too close to have an unbiased view on the israelo-palestinian situation, only neutral people could give a fair judgement, and this need some distance
second there is actually a rise of the rows between the young muslims of arab origin and the jews in my country, every big imbalance in the Middle East have indirectly negative repercussions here
so you can't say that the results of the radicalism in the Sharon politic don't concerns us

"radicalism in the Sharon politic"?

Who is blowing up buses? :bash: isn't that more radical then building a fence?

[Pégase]

its not for people sitting far away to necessarily judge with outright criticism if they aren’t going through those problems


well I can't let you tell that, first because you are too close to have an unbiased view on the israelo-palestinian situation, only neutral people could give a fair judgement, and this need some distance
second there is actually a rise of the rows between the young muslims of arab origin and the jews in my country, every big imbalance in the Middle East have indirectly negative repercussions here
so you can't say that the results of the radicalism in the Sharon politic don't concerns us

"radicalism in the Sharon politic"?

Who is blowing up buses? :bash: isn't that more radical then building a fence?

I've never said that there wasn't radicalism from the two sides

[IDFM203]

its not for people sitting far away to necessarily judge with outright criticism if they aren’t going through those problems


well I can't let you tell that, first because you are too close to have an unbiased view on the israelo-palestinian situation, only neutral people could give a fair judgement there, and this need some distance
second there is actually a rise of the rows between the young muslim of arab origin and the jews in my country, every big imbalance in the Middle East have indirectly negative repercussions here
so you can't say that the results of the radicalism in the Sharon politic don't concerns usok glad to see that you are more level headed and sane now....as such I will continue with you.


Ok first as for unbiased, I have said this often on this forum, there is no such thing as unbias, everyone has some sort of bias.

Secondly you’ll notice that I don’t merely state my opinions but I bring down facts or sane analytical arguments to back them up, so its not my mere bias and if you disagree with what I bring down here then show how I got it wrong in a intelligent analytical way as opposed to what you have been doing up to now by simply stating verbatim anti Israeli false one liners. You see to merely state that I am bias and leave it at that and not show what I said is wrong if you can, is rather weak (I am not saying you did that, though just a caution for you in the future)

As for what you said above…..yes your unbias :roll: that’s why you only always point to your preceptions of Sharon’s radicalism but never to the Arab radicalism that is forcing sharon and most Israelis to support this security anti terror fence after what was before almost daily or weekly homicide bombings in Israeli cities.

Ok yes what happens in Israel effects emotions in other parts and it seems that in your nation where the Muslims have huge sway and populations, it seems as if there is a acquiesce to their view at the detriment of any fair and rational thinking, due to a wish to not alienate what can become a hostile segment of your society.

Shalom :D

[Javehn]

its not for people sitting far away to necessarily judge with outright criticism if they aren’t going through those problems


well I can't let you tell that, first because you are too close to have an unbiased view on the israelo-palestinian situation, only neutral people could give a fair judgement, and this need some distance
second there is actually a rise of the rows between the young muslims of arab origin and the jews in my country, every big imbalance in the Middle East have indirectly negative repercussions here
so you can't say that the results of the radicalism in the Sharon politic don't concerns us


1)Yes , yes . And Europe is not biased then . Quote from an article :

According to the March-April issue of Foreign Policy, the non-Muslim part of Europe will shrink by 3.5 percent by 2015 while the Muslim populace will likely double
Europe have a growing population of Muslim workers with families , and unfortunatly , they do biased , and they are taking with them other Europians .
2)You haven't heard offcorse of "Jewish self blame" . Percent of Israeli left side-liberal parties are scaring . Movements like "Gush Shalom" , "Betselem" , and so on are willing to give all Israel to Palestinian , and consider themselfes war crimers and thugs , and killers , and so on .The left side newspapers , people like Gideon and Humski are without stop repeating the blame that lies on Jewish people sence the day they exited the Egypt . And that's when our Palestinian friends are apparantly free from those complexes , and the only ones they blame for their current situation is their "beloved cousins" . The fact that jews blame themselfes , and Palestinians not , only contributes to world opinion .

3)Israeli are farily unbiased , like i wrote upper , and also the fact , that many trying to keep balanced point of view . You can know that by only looking at Israel TV , and reading Israeli newspapers . Which you apparantly not .

So , unfortunatly my Europian friend , as i said , you are not the ones to judge us . And more and more , you are not the ones to explain the current situation over in our places .

The fence can be , and will be moved after political dialog .

More from that article i brought above :



Between 2-3 million Muslims in France - half their number - are eligible to vote. Another million - one out of two - cast ballots in Britain. These numbers count at the polls and are not offset by the concerted efforts of a potent Jewish lobby - there are barely a million Jews in Western Europe.

Muslims are becoming a well-courted swing vote. They may have decided the last election in Germany, for instance. Recognizing their growing centrality, France established - though not without vote-rigging - a French Council of the Islamic Faith, the equivalent of Napoleon's Jewish Consistory. Two French cabinet members are Muslims. Britain has a Muslim Council

Though divided by their common creed - Shiites vs. Sunnites vs. Wahabbites and so on - the Muslims of Europe are united in supporting the Palestinian cause and in opposing the Iraq war. This - and post-colonial guilt feelings, especially manifest in France and Britain - go a long way toward explaining Germany's re-discovered pacifistic spine and France's anti-Israeli (not to say anti-Semitic) tilt.

Moreover, the Muslims have been playing an important economic role in the continent since the early 1960s. Europe's postwar miracle was founded on these cheap, plentiful and oft-replenished Gastarbeiter - "guest workers". Objective studies have consistently shown that immigrants contribute more to their host economies - as consumers, investors and workers - than they ever claw back in social services and public goods. This is especially true in Europe, where an ageing population of early retirees has been relying on the uninterrupted flow of pension contributions by younger laborers, many of them immigrants.

[Pégase]

yeah that's why it's time for UN to intervene in Israel now p-)

as I've ever said before, this is one of the biggest source of instability in the whole world

[Javehn]

Just like the UN intervine in Mogadishu ? Lebanon ? Serbia ? p-)
No , thank you . They are allready intervian , by the way . Don't like them . Especially UNWRA . Heard about them ?

[IDFM203]

yeah that's why it's time for UN to intervene in Israel now p-)

as I've ever said before, this is one of the biggest source of instability in the worldyes and we remember all too well the last time the UN was a middle force in 1967 without any peace deal, when Egypt asked it to leave so it can amass its troops to attack to annihilate Israel, and it took less then a second for the UN to think about it and then it fled and pulled out its troops and surrendered to Egypt’s wishes.

Yes without any real and genuine peace deal with the Palestinians (where most of them genuinely accept Israel’s existence and not just a few English words as such to the gullible west as has been the case up to now), there is no way in hell Israel will or should sanely ever allow its vital security to be at the graces of the UN or any other outside forces where most of its charter have anyways been hijacked by the Arab nations or states that are hostile towards Israel.

Shalom :D

[Pégase]

with a little more might and will, UN could fit for the rôle of World police p-)

[IDFM203]

So your back to your one liners…….typical :roll:

I mean what you said above has nothing to do with any reality nor does it even address the valid concerns that I brought above.

If you are some child here simply repeating phrases or one liners that you have heard then I cant help you, But if you are a serious individual that is looking for a honest debate or discussion based on facts and the realties, than show it more in your posts and we can have a discussion.

As of now I am not convinced of the latter and as such, till you respond with other then oft repeated one liners or phrases, I will try to avoid discussing things with you for its clear that you aren’t interested in any fair discussion.

I hope that changes.............oh well :roll:

Shalom :D

[Pégase]

despite what you think, there is an international law, the human rights are universels


let see the verdict of the court monday

it seems that the international pressure begins to make its effect, if not, tell me why Israel has begun to bring down some parts of its "fence"

[citizen-k]

despite what you think, there is an international law, the human rights are universels


let see the verdict of the court monday

it seems that the international pressure begins to make its effect, if not, tell me why Israel has begun to bring down some parts of its "fence"

Its universal? so it means I can blow up a bus in your town - and the UN will be OK with it? :roll:

The fence (it is a fence) will be moved to a different location, thats all.

[Pégase]

it's all about the causes, not of the symptoms, try to not forget that

[tooms]

1)Yes , yes . And Europe is not biased then . Quote from an article :

According to the March-April issue of Foreign Policy, the non-Muslim part of Europe will shrink by 3.5 percent by 2015 while the Muslim populace will likely double



[b]
Between 2-3 million Muslims in France - half their number - are eligible to vote. Another million - one out of two - cast ballots in Britain. These numbers count at the polls and are not offset by the concerted efforts of a potent Jewish lobby - there are barely a million Jews in Western Europe.



wahouuu so 6% of french are muslim, about 2 or 3 % of europeans are muslim and you dare quote some articles talking about the great conspiracy of the islam taking over europe

and of course 100% of "muslims" ( because a guy who has muslim origins is automatically called "muslim" even if we didnt ask him about his faith in an europe mainly atheist ) have only 2 or 3 goals in their life: reproduce and kill the jews

which article said that muslim population will be twice in 2015? im interested how the journalists did their job.

[Fox2]

The problem with the UN and most of Europe is the fact that they are largely dependant or biased towards the Arab countries. Why do you think France and Russia were against the US invasion of Iraq? Because they lost one of their biggest customers of weapons and supplier of oil.

In matters of the Mid-East, the European members of the UN are virtually toothless, as the Middle Eastern members can veto just about anything to help Israel. That in addition to the aforementioned European dependency on Arabian oil, and you have a dilemna.

If the Europeans, in their objectivity, were to even consider seeing things even partly from the Israeli point of view, they would have a gasoline crisis on their hands.

No one is or can be objective. No European or international court will solve this issue. The only way for it to be solved is if the two sides can talk it out themselves. With terrorists like Hamas and the PLO, it's very difficult for the Palestinians who DO want peace to speak out. If they do, they are killed or beaten.

[citizen-k]

it's all about the causes, not of the symptoms, try to not forget that

So you think there is an excuse for such actions?

(99% of Palestinians were under Palestinian government before the last intifada started - there goes you lame excuse...)

[Sixgun Symphony]

I got some words for Yasser Terrofat here.


International Court?

More of the global government B/S.
A national court? Where people can sue people from other states? Bah... what's the use in that?!
Justice shouldn't have borders.

You mean "international" court. The very concept is a violation of national soveriegnty. Imperialism really.


Agreed,

The Arab population should be deported. That will end the insurgency.
Didn't I tell you before it's a bad thing to rip-off Hitler's stuff?

Now you are being silly. Hitler would be supporting the PLO were he still alive, just like many of the Europeans do today.

Again, the Arabs on the West Bank are Jordanians, they are the cause of the violence in the region because they will not accept peaceful coexistance with Israel. So the only way to bring a lasting peace is to move the hostile Arab population over to Jordan.

[Argyll]

[quote="Fox2"]The problem with the UN and most of Europe is the fact that they are largely dependant or biased towards the Arab countries. Why do you think France and Russia were against the US invasion of Iraq? Because they lost one of their biggest customers of weapons and supplier of oil.

In matters of the Mid-East, the European members of the UN are virtually toothless, as the Middle Eastern members can veto just about anything to help Israel. That in addition to the aforementioned European dependency on Arabian oil, and you have a dilemna. /quote]

A lot of European countries get their oil from the North Sea.
Most ME members do not help Israel at all,they hinder Isreal,and vote against her,whilst most of the EU states either abstain or veto,thus causing the Votes to be carried.
I'd also like to point out that there are African Nations,Asian Nations and Antipodean Nations who are also part of the UN,yet time after time the finger gets pointed and Europe for remaining silent ,what about the other Nations who vote against Israel that are not within Europe?

[Fox2]

A lot of European countries get their oil from the North Sea.
Most ME members do not help Israel at all,they hinder Isreal,and vote against her,whilst most of the EU states either abstain or veto,thus causing the Votes to be carried.
I'd also like to point out that there are African Nations,Asian Nations and Antipodean Nations who are also part of the UN,yet time after time the finger gets pointed and Europe for remaining silent ,what about the other Nations who vote against Israel that are not within Europe?

Apologies, Argyll. You are correct. It's not right to point the finger at an entire continent. It was wrong of me to say the whole of Europe is against Israel. Infact, I know several European individuals who support Israel.

But from what I've seen, most European governments are either neutral or against anything that helps Israel. In addition, several have crucial economic ties to Arab countries, and most Arab governments are in turn against Israel even existing.

My point was that an international court like this, composed of members who don't really receive anything from Israel, but risk losing assets from their Arabian consorts, cannot be objective. The only people who can solve this crisis are those involved, the Palestinians and the Israelis.

The problem is the terrorists. There are many Palestinians who want peace with Israel, who want to coexist. But they are kept silent by the extremist minority. As Pegase said, the problem is in the source. And the source of the problems is the terrorists. It is indeed a deadly cycle. The Israelis and Palestinians come so close to peace, only then to have a terrorist ruthlessly murder civilians in a bus, at a restaurant or disco. And the cycle starts again. Remove the extremists, and you have no more problems. This is what I understand the Israelis are trying to do. Eliminate the terrorists, and try to coexist with the peaceful Palestinian.

Again, please accept my apologies. I'll try to be less generalizing in the future.

[citizen-k]

[quote=Fox2]The problem with the UN and most of Europe is the fact that they are largely dependant or biased towards the Arab countries. Why do you think France and Russia were against the US invasion of Iraq? Because they lost one of their biggest customers of weapons and supplier of oil.

In matters of the Mid-East, the European members of the UN are virtually toothless, as the Middle Eastern members can veto just about anything to help Israel. That in addition to the aforementioned European dependency on Arabian oil, and you have a dilemna. /quote]

A lot of European countries get their oil from the North Sea.
Most ME members do not help Israel at all,they hinder Isreal,and vote against her,whilst most of the EU states either abstain or veto,thus causing the Votes to be carried.
I'd also like to point out that there are African Nations,Asian Nations and Antipodean Nations who are also part of the UN,yet time after time the finger gets pointed and Europe for remaining silent ,what about the other Nations who vote against Israel that are not within Europe?


I guess we simply give Europe too much credit for its culture, and thats what disappoints us.

[Argyll]

[quote=Fox2]The problem with the UN and most of Europe is the fact that they are largely dependant or biased towards the Arab countries. Why do you think France and Russia were against the US invasion of Iraq? Because they lost one of their biggest customers of weapons and supplier of oil.

In matters of the Mid-East, the European members of the UN are virtually toothless, as the Middle Eastern members can veto just about anything to help Israel. That in addition to the aforementioned European dependency on Arabian oil, and you have a dilemna. /quote]

A lot of European countries get their oil from the North Sea.
Most ME members do not help Israel at all,they hinder Isreal,and vote against her,whilst most of the EU states either abstain or veto,thus causing the Votes to be carried.
I'd also like to point out that there are African Nations,Asian Nations and Antipodean Nations who are also part of the UN,yet time after time the finger gets pointed and Europe for remaining silent ,what about the other Nations who vote against Israel that are not within Europe?


I guess we simply give Europe too much credit for its culture, and thats what disappoints us.


You know mate ,I might be wrong about this ,but I honestly think that many Euorpean Countries,simply do not give a rats ass what goes on outside of their borders,so they chose to appease the ME situation,as long as it does not effect their standard of life,or their economy then many feel,that why the hell should they care?
It's not just not caring about israel ,many couldn't give a toss to what's going on in Africa,South America or North Korea.
They are all warm and happy in their little cocoons,it's only to be expected I guess.

Think of it like this,they could live beside a man who beats his wife daily and listens to her screams,and listen to her sob herself to sleep at night,but they would still say "Good morning" to the asshole the next day,but never go and aid the wife,why? because it's not their problem,that sadly is a fact of life,and I can assure you you can use this eulogy in almost any country in the world,there will always be those who will always say how awfull the husband is,and whatt a monster,but they will never do anything about it!!!

[budanski]

Don't listen to Argyll. He's a loon. We Americans care for everyone. ;)


good point, Argyll... sad but true.

[citizen-k]

[quote=Fox2]The problem with the UN and most of Europe is the fact that they are largely dependant or biased towards the Arab countries. Why do you think France and Russia were against the US invasion of Iraq? Because they lost one of their biggest customers of weapons and supplier of oil.

In matters of the Mid-East, the European members of the UN are virtually toothless, as the Middle Eastern members can veto just about anything to help Israel. That in addition to the aforementioned European dependency on Arabian oil, and you have a dilemna. /quote]

A lot of European countries get their oil from the North Sea.
Most ME members do not help Israel at all,they hinder Isreal,and vote against her,whilst most of the EU states either abstain or veto,thus causing the Votes to be carried.
I'd also like to point out that there are African Nations,Asian Nations and Antipodean Nations who are also part of the UN,yet time after time the finger gets pointed and Europe for remaining silent ,what about the other Nations who vote against Israel that are not within Europe?


I guess we simply give Europe too much credit for its culture, and thats what disappoints us.


You know mate ,I might be wrong about this ,but I honestly think that many Euorpean Countries,simply do not give a rats ass what goes on outside of their borders,so they chose to appease the ME situation,as long as it does not effect their standard of life,or their economy then many feel,that why the hell should they care?
It's not just not caring about israel ,many couldn't give a toss to what's going on in Africa,South America or North Korea.
They are all warm and happy in their little cocoons,it's only to be expected I guess.

Think of it like this,they could live beside a man who beats his wife daily and listens to her screams,and listen to her sob herself to sleep at night,but they would still say "Good morning" to the asshole the next day,but never go and aid the wife,why? because it's not their problem,that sadly is a fact of life,and I can assure you you can use this eulogy in almost any country in the world,there will always be those who will always say how awfull the husband is,and whatt a monster,but they will never do anything about it!!!

If you don't care then fine -
1) don't put us on trial for defending ourselfs
2) let us kick the terrorists out (Arafat?)
3) Stop funding (not you in person and not all european countries - but some) terrorist organizations
4) Syria? Lybia? Iran? Iraq?

Nothing won't make us happier then a careless Europe for human rights (you were never too good with it anyway as far as we felt it ;) )

Now, in case you would like to show "care" for human rights why won't you start with the poor Iranian people? Occupied Lebanon? Woman rights in the arab world?
I think those are much more important issues then Arrafts ability to launch another suicide bomber, don't you?

[Argyll]

You just did not get the eulogy did you ?

Its called appeasement you need to get over this sence of persecution here CK,you're the wife,the palestinians are the husband.

Instead of constantly going on about Anti Semitism ,and the Anti Eorope thing,just answer me this,what have the US provided you with in your war against terror?Other than weapons and Intelligence?

If you don't care then fine -
1) don't put us on trial for defending ourselfs
I agree with the wall
2) let us kick the terrorists out (Arafat?)
Nothing stopping you ,you've had plenty of chances to get the weasel
3) Stop funding (not you in person and not all european countries - but some) terrorist organizations
Name them and shame them,100% proof and not hearsay
4) Syria? Lybia? Iran? Iraq?
What about them?Rogue states?State sponsered terrorism?

Attitudes need changing,the eulogy sums up Israel/Palestine perfectly

[Argyll]

You just did not get the eulogy did you ?

Its called appeasement you need to get over this sence of persecution here CK,you're the wife,the palestinians are the husband.

Instead of constantly going on about Anti Semitism ,and the Anti Eorope thing,just answer me this,what have the US provided you with in your war against terror?Other than weapons and Intelligence?

If you don't care then fine -
1) don't put us on trial for defending ourselfs
I agree with the wall
2) let us kick the terrorists out (Arafat?)
Nothing stopping you ,you've had plenty of chances to get the weasel
3) Stop funding (not you in person and not all european countries - but some) terrorist organizations
Name them and shame them,100% proof and not hearsay
4) Syria? Lybia? Iran? Iraq?
What about them?Rogue states?State sponsered terrorism?

Attitudes need changing,the eulogy sums up Israel/Palestine perfectly

[citizen-k]

You just did not get the eulogy did you ?

Its called appeasement you need to get over this sence of persecution here CK,you're the wife,the palestinians are the husband.

Instead of constantly going on about Anti Semitism ,and the Anti Eorope thing,just answer me this,what have the US provided you with in your war against terror?Other than weapons and Intelligence?

If you don't care then fine -
1) don't put us on trial for defending ourselfs
I agree with the wall
2) let us kick the terrorists out (Arafat?)
Nothing stopping you ,you've had plenty of chances to get the weasel
3) Stop funding (not you in person and not all european countries - but some) terrorist organizations
Name them and shame them,100% proof and not hearsay
4) Syria? Lybia? Iran? Iraq?
What about them?Rogue states?State sponsered terrorism?

Attitudes need changing,the eulogy sums up Israel/Palestine perfectly

I got it the first time.

The truth is the wife is very strong - and she can cut her husbands balls if she only wanted to. Thing is the neighbours are stopping her from doing that every time her husband is hitting her with the bat they gave him.

[Argyll]

You just did not get the eulogy did you ?

Its called appeasement you need to get over this sence of persecution here CK,you're the wife,the palestinians are the husband.

Instead of constantly going on about Anti Semitism ,and the Anti Eorope thing,just answer me this,what have the US provided you with in your war against terror?Other than weapons and Intelligence?

If you don't care then fine -
1) don't put us on trial for defending ourselfs
I agree with the wall
2) let us kick the terrorists out (Arafat?)
Nothing stopping you ,you've had plenty of chances to get the weasel
3) Stop funding (not you in person and not all european countries - but some) terrorist organizations
Name them and shame them,100% proof and not hearsay
4) Syria? Lybia? Iran? Iraq?
What about them?Rogue states?State sponsered terrorism?

Attitudes need changing,the eulogy sums up Israel/Palestine perfectly

I got it the first time.

The truth is the wife is very strong - and she can cut her husbands balls if she only wanted to. Thing is the neighbours are stopping her from doing that every time her husband is hitting her with the bat they gave him.

Glad to hear it,funny thing is 9/10 the wife does end up killing the Hubby and ends up on the wrong side of the Law ;)

I love that answer CK brilliant!!

[citizen-k]

You just did not get the eulogy did you ?

Its called appeasement you need to get over this sence of persecution here CK,you're the wife,the palestinians are the husband.

Instead of constantly going on about Anti Semitism ,and the Anti Eorope thing,just answer me this,what have the US provided you with in your war against terror?Other than weapons and Intelligence?

If you don't care then fine -
1) don't put us on trial for defending ourselfs
I agree with the wall
2) let us kick the terrorists out (Arafat?)
Nothing stopping you ,you've had plenty of chances to get the weasel
3) Stop funding (not you in person and not all european countries - but some) terrorist organizations
Name them and shame them,100% proof and not hearsay
4) Syria? Lybia? Iran? Iraq?
What about them?Rogue states?State sponsered terrorism?

Attitudes need changing,the eulogy sums up Israel/Palestine perfectly

I got it the first time.

The truth is the wife is very strong - and she can cut her husbands balls if she only wanted to. Thing is the neighbours are stopping her from doing that every time her husband is hitting her with the bat they gave him.

Glad to hear it,funny thing is 9/10 the wife does end up killing the Hubby and ends up on the wrong side of the Law ;)

I love that answer CK brilliant!!

hopefully, one day we will serve the president of France "balls a-le-Arafat"...

[Haiw]

I got some words for Yasser Terrofat here.
???


International Court?

More of the global government B/S.
A national court? Where people can sue people from other states? Bah... what's the use in that?!
Justice shouldn't have borders.

You mean "international" court. The very concept is a violation of national soveriegnty. Imperialism really.
You didn't get the sarcasm. The only difference between a national and an international court should be well...just like the difference between a state and a national court. Jurisdiction and all that. National sovereignty and all that is nice, but why let it obstruct justice? Imperialism...by who?!


Agreed,

The Arab population should be deported. That will end the insurgency.
Didn't I tell you before it's a bad thing to rip-off Hitler's stuff?

Now you are being silly. Hitler would be supporting the PLO were he still alive, just like many of the Europeans do today.

Again, the Arabs on the West Bank are Jordanians, they are the cause of the violence in the region because they will not accept peaceful coexistance with Israel. So the only way to bring a lasting peace is to move the hostile Arab population over to Jordan.

I'm not talking about who or what Hitler would support, I'm just talking about your methods. The first sketches of the 'endlösung' was to deport all jews. Just look at your text, change some country names, change muslim for jew and tataaaaaaaaaaaaaaa you've got yourself a nice little Wannsee text. :roll:

[Sixgun Symphony]

First off, the Arabs are the ones making war on Israel. They are the nazis for wanting to destroy Israel and you are a nazi for supporting them in that endeavor.

The Arabs refuse to coexist peacefully with Israel and will continue making war until they destroy Israel. You and your ilk there in Europe have been supporting them in this aggression.

Now, Lets look at what will bring a stable peace to the region. Since the Arabs continue with their insurgency, there needs to be a physical barrier between the hostile Arab population and Israel. The Jordanian river is a natural barrier and easily defended.

Now lets look at the history of the region. These hostile Arabs now living on the West Bank were called Jordanians before 1967. So these Jordanians can go to Jordan.

If these Arabs would peacefull coexist with Israel, then a separation would not be necessary. But they choose war and so it becomes necessary to take defensive actions.




International Court? The very existance of an 'international court' violates national soveriegnty. No foreign power shall have authority over any soveriegn nation.

You euro-socialists want a world government because you want to control the world. You are imperialists.

[Argyll]

Now lets look at the history of the region. These hostile Arabs now living on the West Bank were called Jordanians before 1967. So these Jordanians can go to Jordan.

Really I thought prior to 1947 It was called Palestine,all of it until the British in their infinite wisdom decided to split it up,thus causing the exodus of Palestinians,and the birth of Israel
If these Arabs would peacefull coexist with Israel, then a separation would not be necessary. But they choose war and so it becomes necessary to take defensive actions.

I agree 100%
International Court? The very existance of an 'international court' violates national soveriegnty. No foreign power shall have authority over any soveriegn nation.
Oh really so the War Crimes sought by the USA and the West on The Serbians,and Croations,and the Muslims then are in your eyes illegal,and have no authority what so ever ?
By the very statement you made there it also means that you have no authority whatsoever over Iraq/Afghanistan,and therefore have no Authority over what happens to Saddam Hussein?
You euro-socialists want a world government because you want to control the world. You are imperialists.

Look into the mirror and see who wants to control the world buddy!

[Yard Ape]

Don't let him clog every thread on the board with the same argument. He is already fighting this here (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8709&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=180).

[Argyll]

CK,
Of the 15 Countries that are part of the EU which ones fund Terrorism in the ME?

Austria=
Belgium=
Denmark=
Finland=
France=
Germany=
Greece=
Ireland=
Italy=
Luxembourg=
Netherlands=
Portugal=
Spain=
Sweden=
United Kingdom=

I'll also add to this
Iceland=
Leichtenstein=
Norway=
I just want to know wherin the extent of this apportioned blame lies on the the EU?
I have a funny feeling that only 1 of these 15(18) countries is active in funding Terrorism,and it would put paid to this nonesense about Branding all of the EU under 1 banner,1 country or even 2 does not constitute Europe!
Are these Fundings made directly by Governments also,or do they just come from other sources within them?
If this is so,then what about the Support of ME countries from within ex Pats within the USA?I can remember something a few years back that some organisations(Muslim) were sending funds to the ME and there was questions raised about what they were for,anyone in the US remember this?

[tooms]

CK,
Of the 15 Countries that are part of the EU which ones fund Terrorism in the ME?

Austria=
Belgium=
Denmark=
Finland=
France=
Germany=
Greece=
Ireland=
Italy=
Luxembourg=
Netherlands=
Portugal=
Spain=
Sweden=
United Kingdom=

I'll also add to this
Iceland=
Leichtenstein=
Norway=
I just want to know wherin the extent of this apportioned blame lies on the the EU?
I have a funny feeling that only 1 of these 15(18) countries is active in funding Terrorism,and it would put paid to this nonesense about Branding all of the EU under 1 banner,1 country or even 2 does not constitute Europe!
Are these Fundings made directly by Governments also,or do they just come from other sources within them?
If this is so,then what about the Support of ME countries from within ex Pats within the USA?I can remember something a few years back that some organisations(Muslim) were sending funds to the ME and there was questions raised about what they were for,anyone in the US remember this?

which is this country you think supports terrorism ?

EU did not decide to sue israel for that wall

[Argyll]

I honestly do not believe there is one,that has it representative Government Fund Middle Eastern Terrorism,however I have a hunch that a particular Country will be named.
I shall not name it,as the question was directed at Citizen K who made 4 points,and one of them pertained to an EU State sponsored Terrorism,I'd just like to see proof,as I'm sure others embroiled in this tit for tat debate.

It is wrong to state such things without providing proof
It is wrong to generalise a Continent as one,same as branding a Race all the same as well.
There are those members who post here about the EU being such a hated Union and accuse them of being Anti Jewish/Anti semetic and Anti USA,and I personally doubt their claims,as I'm pretty sure there are the same counter Arguments available pertaining to the US and Africa.

Just because 1 man posts that he hates a country is not a reflection on his nations thoughts ,motives and Political beliefs are influential in other peoples views.

And again Just think about the eulogy about the wife beater!!
CK put it very well in his answer about how his neighbours sold the man the baseball bat,again if he asked for a baseball bat to beat his wife with,would they have sold it to him in the 1st place?

[S'13]

About the whole issue of the EU funding and it's use in the implementation of terror attacks...


Banking on terror

By Rachel Ehrenfeld
February 27, 2003

A rumor that the European Parliament had passed legislation to
begin an investigation into the Palestinian Authority's use of
EU funds, is just that. Francois Zimeray, a MEP (Socialist
Party, France) was quoted in Haaretz on February 24 as saying
to the World Jewish Congress that such an investigation is
underway. He either mis-spoke or was misquoted.

On February 2, 170 members of the EU Parliament demanding
accountability, despite Commissioner Chris Patten's strong
objection, signed a petition to open a parliamentarian
investigation into the EU's aid to the PA.

The following day the European Anti-Fraud Office (OLAF) announced
that it has begun an external investigation "in relation to
allegations of misuse of funds donated by the European Union
in the context of EU budgetary support to the Palestinian
Authority."

What has taken OLAF so long?
The PA's own documents demonstrating how the PA and Yasser Arafat
used EU funds to pay for terrorism were discovered by the IDF
and have been available for over a year.

Volumes of the Palestinian Authority's own documents, including
many graced by Arafat's own signature, ordering the Palestinian
Ministry of Finance the recipient of hundreds of millions of
dollars in EU budgetary aid (The EU's annual budget is about
$101 billion) and additional $950 million in humanitarian aid
just for the year 2002 to pay members of the al Aksa Martyrs
Brigade for killing Israeli citizens, or else for procurement
of explosives and illegal weapons.

These and similar documents motivated Ilke Scroeder (Green Party,
Germany) and a small group of like-minded ethically conscious
European Parliamentarians to demand a full parliamentary
investigation.

Finally, on February 13, the Conference of Presidents of the
European Parliament decided that instead of a full investigation,
setting up a "Working Group" to look into the matter would be
enough. But don't hold your breath, this "Working Group" is
made of the very same members of the Budgetary and Foreign
Affairs Committees who were supposed to monitor how the PA
was spending the EU's taxpayers' money.

EU donations to the PA since the Oslo Accords have included
demands for accountability, and similar demands have been
attached to the EU's direct budgetary assistance since the
PA began attacking Israel in September 2000. However, despite
EU claims to the contrary, no real effort to monitor how the
money it provided the PA was actually spent has ever taken
place. The EU claims that the International Monetary Fund
(IMF) monitors the PA budget, and EU.

Commissioner for External Affairs Chris Patten maintains that
"EU assistance has clear conditions attached to it and is
closely monitored by the IMF at the Commission's request."
His office has also stated that, "the IMF conducts a close
review of monthly fiscal information covering the whole of
the PA budget, including the wage bill."

In bold contrast however, IMF staff members have contradicted
Patten's claim on several occasions. The director of the IMF's
Middle Eastern Department, George T. Abed, acknowledged on
September 2002 that "with weak institutions and a budget of
nearly $1 billion, there has, no doubt, been some abuse."

And he added that even "the Palestinian Legislative Council
itself has complained about this," and finally that "the
IMF does not and cannot control downstream spending by the
various Palestinian agencies."

The EU has been arguing that it will only accept the fact
that the money it sends has been funding terrorism if there
are mechanisms to identify how each individual Euro is spent.

But as money is fungible; and as the EU gave direct funding
toward PA salaries, and additional money to the PA Ministry
of Finance for various projects; and as the PA's own records
prove that it used the Ministry of Finance to pay for terror
activities, what other evidence is needed to show that the
PA allocated money received from the EU to fund terrorism?

In June 2002, after international condemnation of the PA's
corruption, Arafat appointed a new Minister of Finance,
Salam Fayyad. He is a former IMF official who, assisted by
outside experts, began an attempt to overhaul the corrupt
system. As a result, Israel agreed to renew its transfer
of payments for Palestinian tax funds, which it had withheld
fearing the money would go to fund terrorism.

These payments, unlike the EU's are being monitored by a
special group of accountants brought in by the US.
However, there are already reports that Arafat ignores and
circumvents Fayyad, by ordering others in the Ministry of
Finance to pay to known terrorists, thus continuing to
assert his control over the PA's funds.

Despite all this, the EU decided to continue its financial
aid to the PA on the grounds that it is not convinced that
Israel will continue to transfer the money to the PA.

This decision not only perpetuates the EU's unwillingness
to account for the whereabouts of money it gave to the
Palestinians, but also the EU's lack of accountability and
transparency.

Instead of coming clean, the EU Commission headed by Patten,
and the Conference of Presidents thought it was better to
sweep the investigation under the carpet. Only this time
the red on the carpet is the blood of the victims of
terrorism.

[Argyll]

Good post!.
However do you honestly believe that they knew full well that these funds were going directly into terrorism?

Its the same argument about funding coming from Arab Organisations within the USA is it not?How much of what they(USA)thought legit went to fund and support terrorism instead of Welfare and education like it was supposed to?

Like Tooms said,the EU has said it has no interests in this wall or its arguments.........

[S'13]

However do you honestly believe that they knew full well that these funds were going directly into terrorism?

I don't think the EU has an interest in having its funds go to terrorists, however the EU isn't doing enough to stop the use of its funds in the support of terrorism and it looks as if the EU is trying to avoid this issue and sticks its head in the sand. You yourself have mentioned the word appeasement, which I think is a very appropriate word when talking about the whole stance of the EU.


Its the same argument about funding coming from Arab Organisations within the USA is it not?

I don't think it's the same argument since we are talking about actual EU money going to terrorists, not money that was collected in Europe (although this is also happening). I mean in this case the EU has much more power, and if this is not the case then the EU should stop the funding all together, not doing so would be like an acceptance of what is happening to EU funds sent to the PA.

[Argyll]

Appeasement is a great word isn't it?

Yes Europe on the whole I feel could not care less about the ME,maybe that's just my view,it's the same with Africa,again we as a Union don't really care.
All we need to do is look at history throught Europe in the 20th century and we can see that appeasement is rife!!

The $64 million dollar question is "Should we care and why"?

Would those who live in the ME care about what goes on in Europe?

How do you go about changing attitudes tho?When people/Nations show concern and act,they are accused of Interfering,and when they do nothing they are accused of neglect/appeasement a catch 22 perhaps.

Ask yourself this question also,how many people buy stuff from street vendors instead of shops,just becuase they can get the product at a 3rd of the cost,but never question where the proceeds of the sale go to?

again if you heard your neighbour slapping his wife around ,would you go to his door an smack him in the mouth,without finding out the full story,or would you just turn the television/radio up louder so you couldn't hear what was going on?

[Haiw]

First off, the Arabs are the ones making war on Israel. They are the nazis for wanting to destroy Israel and you are a nazi for supporting them in that endeavor.

The Arabs refuse to coexist peacefully with Israel and will continue making war until they destroy Israel. You and your ilk there in Europe have been supporting them in this aggression.

Now, Lets look at what will bring a stable peace to the region. Since the Arabs continue with their insurgency, there needs to be a physical barrier between the hostile Arab population and Israel. The Jordanian river is a natural barrier and easily defended.

Now lets look at the history of the region. These hostile Arabs now living on the West Bank were called Jordanians before 1967. So these Jordanians can go to Jordan.

If these Arabs would peacefull coexist with Israel, then a separation would not be necessary. But they choose war and so it becomes necessary to take defensive actions.




International Court? The very existance of an 'international court' violates national soveriegnty. No foreign power shall have authority over any soveriegn nation.

You euro-socialists want a world government because you want to control the world. You are imperialists.




Now lets look at the history of the region. These hostile Arabs now living on the West Bank were called Jordanians before 1967. So these Jordanians can go to Jordan.

Really I thought prior to 1947 It was called Palestine,all of it until the British in their infinite wisdom decided to split it up,thus causing the exodus of Palestinians,and the birth of Israel
If these Arabs would peacefull coexist with Israel, then a separation would not be necessary. But they choose war and so it becomes necessary to take defensive actions.

I agree 100%
International Court? The very existance of an 'international court' violates national soveriegnty. No foreign power shall have authority over any soveriegn nation.
Oh really so the War Crimes sought by the USA and the West on The Serbians,and Croations,and the Muslims then are in your eyes illegal,and have no authority what so ever ?
By the very statement you made there it also means that you have no authority whatsoever over Iraq/Afghanistan,and therefore have no Authority over what happens to Saddam Hussein?
You euro-socialists want a world government because you want to control the world. You are imperialists.

Look into the mirror and see who wants to control the world buddy!

Argyll already covered most of it, but just my personal additions:
Where the **** did you hear me say I support the arabs? I dare you, find a quote where I support arabs attacking Israël.

About building walls; it's been tried in Germany....it didn't really work out. IMO even though it might have some tactical effect against suicide bombers, in the long run it will just drive the Palestinians and the Israëlis further apart, making an end to violence less and less unlikely.

About the ICC; first of all, it's not even something 'European'. It's INTERNATIONAL. It's a GLOBAL COURT. Now what does that have to do with Europe?! Second, it's just a matter of what you want to keep higher.
National sovereignty to obstruct justice, or justice at a small cost of national sovereignty. You say 'no foreign power shall have authority over any sovereign nation'...yet...the ICC isn't any national power or anything. It also shouldn't really have power over other nations, it should only be able to bring justice all over the world, no matter what their nationality or habitat.
An ICC doesn't have anything to do with controlling the world. All it's about is pulling justice above borders.

[S'13]

The $64 million dollar question is "Should we care and why"?

Maybe that's what Chamberlain and Franklin D. Roosevelt told each other, and look where that brought us p-) :|

I am not trying to compare the situation today to the situation then but I am just taking this as an example. One thing happening in one part of the world can very well have an influence on the rest of the world, and there are plenty of examples of this in the Middle East...

[citizen-k]

CK,
Of the 15 Countries that are part of the EU which ones fund Terrorism in the ME?

Austria=
Belgium=
Denmark=
Finland=
France=
Germany=
Greece=
Ireland=
Italy=
Luxembourg=
Netherlands=
Portugal=
Spain=
Sweden=
United Kingdom=

I'll also add to this
Iceland=
Leichtenstein=
Norway=
I just want to know wherin the extent of this apportioned blame lies on the the EU?
I have a funny feeling that only 1 of these 15(18) countries is active in funding Terrorism,and it would put paid to this nonesense about Branding all of the EU under 1 banner,1 country or even 2 does not constitute Europe!
Are these Fundings made directly by Governments also,or do they just come from other sources within them?
If this is so,then what about the Support of ME countries from within ex Pats within the USA?I can remember something a few years back that some organisations(Muslim) were sending funds to the ME and there was questions raised about what they were for,anyone in the US remember this?

which is this country you think supports terrorism ?

EU did not decide to sue israel for that wall

The trial is not held in the US, Asia, the moon or mars - it's in Europe!

FENCE! get that little fact into that lame brain of yours - FENCE!

80% is a fence and 20% is a wall ment to defend CIVILIANS from SNIPERS WHO SEEK CIVILIANS AS TARGETS! is it that hard to understand? :bash:

[citizen-k]

I honestly do not believe there is one,that has it representative Government Fund Middle Eastern Terrorism,however I have a hunch that a particular Country will be named.
I shall not name it,as the question was directed at Citizen K who made 4 points,and one of them pertained to an EU State sponsored Terrorism,I'd just like to see proof,as I'm sure others embroiled in this tit for tat debate.

It is wrong to state such things without providing proof
It is wrong to generalise a Continent as one,same as branding a Race all the same as well.
There are those members who post here about the EU being such a hated Union and accuse them of being Anti Jewish/Anti semetic and Anti USA,and I personally doubt their claims,as I'm pretty sure there are the same counter Arguments available pertaining to the US and Africa.

Just because 1 man posts that he hates a country is not a reflection on his nations thoughts ,motives and Political beliefs are influential in other peoples views.

And again Just think about the eulogy about the wife beater!!
CK put it very well in his answer about how his neighbours sold the man the baseball bat,again if he asked for a baseball bat to beat his wife with,would they have sold it to him in the 1st place?

Right, they all belived the money will be used to aid the Palestinian people rofl rofl rofl rofl

[Argyll]

Sad isn't it S'13,what has the world come to?

Worst of all mate is that you and I are just tiny little cogs in a great big machine,and if we break,it's no big deal as the machine just keeps turning.

I wish I knew all the answers,there has been way to much suffering in the whole of the Region,since before Christianity itself,and still nothing has changed,it would be great to wave a magic wand and put all the ill's of the region at rest,but it just ain't going to happen,and I doubt it will even in my life time.

The wall will help for so long,untill they find alternatives,sad really.I feel your sense of frustration,trully I do,and I hope that one day your children and childrens children will grow up without fear.

Have a good one and Shalom ;)

[citizen-k]

again if you heard your neighbour slapping his wife around ,would you go to his door an smack him in the mouth,without finding out the full story,or would you just turn the television/radio up louder so you couldn't hear what was going on?

1st time? rofl

How many buses do you think Arafat should blow up before European countries will stop funding him? 10? 20? 30?

Those countries have very honorable partners - Syria, Iran, Iraq... all are paying the Palestinian terror machine. Just like I said before, I guess we are (Israelis) a mad at the European countries because we simply gave them too much cultural credit.

Been European in our past, we though we share the same value for life and humanity - I guess hearing people from Europe justify and support the murder of children simply disappoints us.

And yes, saying that a fance is worse then a burning school bus means to justify and support the murder of children.

[S'13]

Sad isn't it S'13,what has the world come to?

Worst of all mate is that you and I are just tiny little cogs in a great big machine,and if we break,it's no big deal as the machine just keeps turning.

I wish I knew all the answers,there has been way to much suffering in the whole of the Region,since before Christianity itself,and still nothing has changed,it would be great to wave a magic wand and put all the ill's of the region at rest,but it just ain't going to happen,and I doubt it will even in my life time.

The wall will help for so long,untill they find alternatives,sad really.I feel your sense of frustration,trully I do,and I hope that one day your children and childrens children will grow up without fear.

Have a good one and Shalom ;)

Thanks mate... ;)

[Argyll]

again if you heard your neighbour slapping his wife around ,would you go to his door an smack him in the mouth,without finding out the full story,or would you just turn the television/radio up louder so you couldn't hear what was going on?

1st time? rofl

And like I believe you..........not!

How many buses do you think Arafat should blow up before European countries will stop funding him? 10? 20? 30?

maybe when the USA stops funding Israel?I don't have the answer,I think what happens inside Israel is an outrage,as do many Europeans,we are not all Israeli haters,it's just that you think we are!

Those countries have very honorable partners - Syria, Iran, Iraq... all are paying the Palestinian terror machine. Just like I said before, I guess we are (Israelis) a mad at the European countries because we simply gave them too much cultural credit.

Which European Union countries?

Been European in our past, we though we share the same value for life and humanity - I guess hearing people from Europe justify and support the murder of children simply disappoints us.

Which country in EU has done this,and openly said so?And I mean countries and not individuals with their own agenda's

And yes, saying that a fance is worse then a burning school bus means to justify and support the murder of children.

Again the EU has said nothing about this fence/wall,they are not participating in this "hearing",it is not a "trial" mate.
The murder of women and children wherever they are in the world is wrong,again who said that a fence was worse?A country and not an Individual?



CK
You obviously didn't read the parts where I said I supported the idea of a wall/fence as long as it worked?

Now it seems to me that you are telling everyone that the EU is deliberately Funding Terrorism,knowing full well where the money goes to?
I'd say that was pretty stupid,I know you don't like the EU,that is your perogative,but I think you are innacurate with your statements about EU funds,unless you have seen 100% proof as to where and how much each country gives to the Palestinians,I'd also be pretty sure that if they really thought their funds were going directly into terrorism that they would cease it Immediately,especially the UK,but seeing as I'm not an MEP nor an MP nor a diplomat I have not a single shred of evidence to back up your claims,I'll await your answer to what I posted in relation to the 15 countries ;)

[Mr. Nielsen]

Again the EU has said nothing about this fence/wall,they are not participating in this "hearing",it is not a "trial" mate.


While the states of europe or the US is not particpating in the hearings in Hague, it dosn't mean that they endorse the "security fence" in any way.
Quite on the contrary.

Just a few hours ago I heard the foreign minister of britain on TV saying the wall/fence was illegal, Plain and simple.

But the court in the Hague, as I understand it, is designed to arbitrate between two parties that agree to have the court look into the case. For instance Denmark and Norway had a dispute over Greenland, and decided to have the court arbitrate the case.

[Haiw]

citizen-k do you have any idea what the ICC has to do with Europe? TOTALLY NOTHING! Europe is only the HOST. The ICC is a global organisation which just happens to be located in Europe. The UNs HQ is in NY, but that doesn't make it an American organisation now does it?

[DE_Six]

Already mentioned. Edit.

[Truthsayer]

You euro-socialists want a world government because you want to control the world. You are imperialists.



Every time any american refers to us european nations as one, with only one view on things, I will refer to all americans as one person with one view as the poster in question:

http://www.1uptravel.com/flags/images/us-flag.jpghttp://www.theforumz.com/images/icon_page/piss.gif

Have a nice day.

[Sixgun Symphony]

An ICC doesn't have anything to do with controlling the world. All it's about is pulling justice above borders.

An international court is itself a violation of national soveriegnty. Justice? Well whose justice? Maybe this ICC is just old europe trying to stay in the empire game.

Now we have seen the massive rallies in Europe. Public opinion over there is overwhelmingly 'Hate Israel" and "Love the PLO". Oh yea, I can already see this court for what it is.

It is amazing how these internationalists and their ICC presume to have authority over soveriegn nations. This court of internationalists will soon discover that they are powerless and irrelevent.

[Mr. Nielsen]

An international court is itself a violation of national soveriegnty.

I guess the idea is that the violation of international law and human rights has to be greater than the violation of national sovereignty. As was the case in Nuremberg.


'Hate Israel" and "Love the PLO". Oh yea, I can already see this court for what it is.

If europeans are demonstrating I think the issue with Israel would be it's denying the palestinians freedom, not outright hatred.

[Javehn]

I guess the idea is that the violation of international law and human rights has to be greater than the violation of national sovereignty. As was the case in Nuremberg.

I think that prevention of human lives ending has to be greater then lower life quality . Sorry if you think otherwise .

So , you think that :
violation of national soveregnty : Terror acts on civilian population with initial intent to it .
violation of international law and human rights : anti terror actions , indeed they have destruction , caused during firefights when soldiers trying to clear they path .

Yes , i see how it's possible to make that accurate analogy .

[Mr. Nielsen]

I think that prevention of human lives ending has to be greater then lower life quality .

Will more people be saved by building the fence on palestinian soil?



violation of national soveregnty : Terror acts on civilian population with initial intent to it .
violation of international law and human rights : anti terror actions , indeed they have destruction , caused during firefights when soldiers trying to clear they path .

As long as Israel occupies the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, any action of the Israeli military will be hopelessly entangled in that occupation.

The problem is that we never know when an Israeli military operation is conducted against terror (real terror), and when it is conducted to enforce the illegal occupation. The same goes for the "security fence".

[SeanAshi]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdonlyres/D7D2BF36-7905-4A87-AF77-0CCAED397A40/29438/8B392D38E4F24776AE7EE86B3ED0E325.jpgPalestinian picking on Israeli border police
As long as Israel occupies the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, any action of the Israeli military will be hopelessly entangled in that occupationEast Jerusalem belongs to Israel.

[Haiw]

An ICC doesn't have anything to do with controlling the world. All it's about is pulling justice above borders.

An international court is itself a violation of national soveriegnty. Justice? Well whose justice? Maybe this ICC is just old europe trying to stay in the empire game.

Now we have seen the massive rallies in Europe. Public opinion over there is overwhelmingly 'Hate Israel" and "Love the PLO". Oh yea, I can already see this court for what it is.

It is amazing how these internationalists and their ICC presume to have authority over soveriegn nations. This court of internationalists will soon discover that they are powerless and irrelevent.
And again your paranoia makes you completely miss the ball on what I said. Have you even read it?!! You might wanna get some more reliable info about rallies... :roll:

[Yard Ape]

The Arab population should be deported. That will end the insurgency.

I see you are once again espousing that Israel must deport all Muslims for its security, just as you stated in the Pat Buchanan thread, and just as you said about the FRY deporting its Muslims to Africa. You have accused Canada of being a threat to US security because of its Muslim population. And, you have suggested France & Britain are ticking time bombs because of their Muslim populations. Yet, you still have not answered this one question:

Do you think the US must eject its 7 million Muslim citizens to ensure its security?

[citizen-k]

As long as Israel occupies the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, any action of the Israeli military will be hopelessly entangled in that occupation.


Jordan & Egypt never asked them (West Bank, Gaza) in return. (maybe becasue they were Israeli occupied territories in the first place?)

Its funny how the whole world takes care of a made-up-arab-nation, the whole world except arab nations that is. :cantbeli:

[mustamato]

As long as Israel occupies the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, any action of the Israeli military will be hopelessly entangled in that occupation.


Jordan & Egypt never asked them (West Bank, Gaza) in return. (maybe becasue they were Israeli occupied territories in the first place?)

Its funny how the whole world takes care of a made-up-arab-nation, the whole world except arab nations that is. :cantbeli:

Isn´t Israel quite made up as well? It wasn´t there 100 years ago. And how
many could speak hebrew 100 years ago?

[citizen-k]

As long as Israel occupies the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, any action of the Israeli military will be hopelessly entangled in that occupation.


Jordan & Egypt never asked them (West Bank, Gaza) in return. (maybe becasue they were Israeli occupied territories in the first place?)

Its funny how the whole world takes care of a made-up-arab-nation, the whole world except arab nations that is. :cantbeli:

Isn´t Israel quite made up as well? It wasn´t there 100 years ago. And how
many could speak hebrew 100 years ago?

rofl

ever heared of the ~5,000 years old bible written in Hebrew? :bash:

My grand grand....grand father came to Israel ~120 years ago...

Hebron (a city in Israel) was always populated by Jews for the last ~2000 years...

We already know you have no idea what your talking about - no need to remind us in EVERY new post you make.

[Argyll]

He obviously never heard of the Israelites ;)

http://ancientneareast.tripod.com/Israelites.html