Five Danes guilty of Iraq abuse [Archive]

ed316

01-12-2006, 10:47 AM

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/printer_friendly/news_logo.gif
Five Danes guilty of Iraq abuse
A Danish army captain and four military police sergeants have been found guilty of abusing prisoners while they were based in southern Iraq.
But the judge ruled that because of "extenuating circumstances" the five would not be punished.
He said they had not received clear guidelines from the Danish military.
Capt Annemette Hommel and the others were convicted of verbal humiliation and forcing prisoners to maintain painful postures during interrogation.
Hard line
Capt Hommel, 38, and the four other defendants had denied the accusations relating to tours of duty in 2004.

The defendants are to a certain degree found guilty, but due to extenuating circumstances there is no basis for a sentence
Judge Jorgen Lougart

The captain, who was ordered to return home from Iraq before her tour of duty ended, said she had done nothing wrong.
Leaving court she told reporters she thought the court had "opted for an unnecessarily hard line", according to AP.
Last year, she said the allegations stemmed from a misunderstanding with the Palestinian translators working at the camp, who had objected to her interrogation techniques. Denmark has about 500 troops in southern Iraq, near Basra, and most people support their government's backing of the US-led coalition in Iraq.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4606350.stm

Published: 2006/01/12 14:45:19 GMT

© BBC MMVI

sickofpretenders

01-12-2006, 10:52 AM

Five Danes guilty of Iraq abuse
A Danish army captain and four military police sergeants have been found guilty of abusing prisoners while they were based in southern Iraq.

...were convicted of verbal humiliation and forcing prisoners to maintain painful postures during interrogation.

Only a third rate terrorist loving outfit like the BBC would call stress positions and verbal abuse torture. By that defenition every single soldier or athelete in the word is a torture victim.

He219

01-12-2006, 10:56 AM

http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=68367

ed316

01-12-2006, 10:58 AM

Alright He, just deleted...I'm such a noob

He219

01-12-2006, 10:59 AM

1234567890
;)

Upfrontreporting

01-12-2006, 11:22 AM

Sickofpretenders wrote:

Only a third rate terrorist loving outfit like the BBC would call stress positions and verbal abuse torture. By that defenition every single soldier or athelete in the word is a torture victim.

And sadly the Danish court is of the same opinion. This ruling is complete and utter shyte, this case stinks on so many levels. :bash: Christ all ****ing mighty!

ed316

01-12-2006, 11:24 AM

she told reporters she thought the court had "opted for an unnecessarily hard line", according to AP. Last year, she said the allegations stemmed from a misunderstanding with the Palestinian translators working at the camp, who had objected to her interrogation techniques

Bias? This is a Chickensh*t court.

theholeinthedonut

01-12-2006, 11:32 AM

Capt. Hommels career in the forces has just gone down the gutter.

What she's done seems to be ridiculous compared to the treatment our young recruits got during basic training when i was in from 90 to 93.
(It was just in a third rate, middle-european, pseudo army of +/- 350 strong, where the average age of the volunteers was 18! Not in a hard-ass snake-eating outfit like Paras , Marines etc.....)

So one has to ask himself a few questions.

What happened in the last few years that such a verdict has become possible? Is it public opinipn going ape **** over some "freedom fighter's" human rights?

How can a society that sets such high standards for their soldiers get engaged in a shooting war? What does our society expect of the women and men in the forces?

What do our judges think fighting an insurgency is about?

When will our elected politicians be held accountable for the consequences of their decision to send the troops to war?

How will it be possible to motivate young women and men to choose a badly paid career that will put enormous strains on their familly life and where they might be forced to put their lives at risk every single day
if the whole society looks upon them as pariahs and every judge with an ego as big as an M1A2 will just be waiting to get them indicted in order to please AI?

Sometimes I'm worried that I'm turning into an old fascistoid fart, but honestly, Europe reminds me more and more of the decadent Romam Empire in its final days.

Anyway respect to Captain Hommel, she will be in my thoughts tonight. ( not that I think she will care about it )

Regards
Tom

Hutz

01-12-2006, 11:35 AM

I guess the proper civilized manner to interrogate terrorists is over tea and biscuits.

Thor

01-12-2006, 11:46 AM

Verbal humiliation... That's a good one.

ClydeFrog

01-12-2006, 01:33 PM

Love your enemies and hate your friends. Enemies will stay the same friends might stab you in the back.

vlun

01-12-2006, 06:22 PM

the article is retarded. the dude who said something about athletes being torture victim analogy was bang on the nail. I would give that guy 100% on a philosphy essay.

let's be nice to terrorists and allow innocent people to die. I say we show terrorists the movie Hostel even though I would never ever see it. I'm sure they will enjoy it.

I will never ever see Saw 1, or two, let alone Hostel.

v-d0g

Crewdog

01-12-2006, 11:41 PM

Not to beat a dead horse on the subject but yeah, every soldier in the world has been the subject of verbal abuse. And stress positions? My goodness, they would scree, bloody hell if they had to maintain the dying cockroach for more than a minute.

I had a high school football coach that would have us get on our backs in a row and do scissor lifts. He would then run over us using our stomachs as stepping stones.

Bugalugs

01-12-2006, 11:57 PM

the article is retarded. the dude who said something about athletes being torture victim analogy was bang on the nail. I would give that guy 100% on a philosphy essay.
except for the issue of voluntariness, of course. He'd lose some marks for not addressing that....

sickofpretenders

01-13-2006, 12:48 AM

except for the issue of voluntariness, of course. He'd lose some marks for not addressing that....

There are conscripts in many armies, including the Danish army and I dont know what faggy private school you went to boy, but everyone had to do at least one sport in mine and with the execption of possibly badminton (im guessing your favourite sport judging from the size of your arms) doing a sport meant getting yelled at and getting pushed physically.

So maybe you should keep your trap shut when you clearly, once again, have no idea.

Bugalugs

01-13-2006, 05:35 AM

There are conscripts in many armies, including the Danish army and I dont know what faggy private school you went to boy, but everyone had to do at least one sport in mine and with the execption of possibly badminton (im guessing your favourite sport judging from the size of your arms) doing a sport meant getting yelled at and getting pushed physically.

So maybe you should keep your trap shut when you clearly, once again, have no idea.

Touchy Touchy!

But once again you miss the point.

voluntariness is the differance between a quickie shag with a girl after a friday night on the turps and a ten-year stretch for rape.

peer and parental pressure are one thing, but nobody cable-ties your arms behind your back and forces you to go out on the football field. (and there no way i could wield my badminton bat as ferociously as I do whilst restrained). Even for conscripts in any western country, refusal to participate in traning may be a chargable offence, but physical coercion is still assault.

While the question of whether the Danes should have been found guilty is an open one, the point is that your analogy that sportsman are abused as much as prisoners, and therefore the prisoners were not in fact abused, is not useful.

caridon

01-13-2006, 08:31 AM

Only a third rate terrorist loving outfit like the BBC would call stress positions and verbal abuse torture. By that defenition every single soldier or athelete in the word is a torture victim.
Ok lets follow your reasoning to its logical conclution.

There are clubs where persons pay to have needles poked through their genitals.

That makes it ok for me to do the same to you ? (please answer only 'yes' or 'no')

if you dont answer 'yes' to my question then you have invalidated you argument.

/C

Edit: spelling fixes

Thor

01-13-2006, 08:42 AM

Even for conscripts in any western country, refusal to participate in traning may be a chargable offence, but physical coercion is still assault.
You see in real life that option doesn't exist. Your ass belongs to the army and you are by law obliged to follow orders (and that includes participating in interrogation exercises). A soldier can file a complaint afterwards but that still puts him in the same position as a former detainee.

sickofpretenders

01-13-2006, 09:31 AM

But once again you miss the point.

No I think its you that miss the point. Where in the article was physical assualt mentioned? My point was that Danes have been found guilty of using verbal abuse and stress positions on insurgents, while right this very minute, in Denmark, there are conscripts (you know, people forced to join the military? - You didnt get it the first time) getting verbally abused and put in stress positions.

You dont see the similarity? Well consider for a minute that they cant all get a chit to malinger out of everything like you did and maybe it will become more obvious.

Dont forget that the insurgents had a choice not to try to kill the Danes in the first place.

Caridon, dont use the word logic when you clearly have no concept of it. Your post makes no sense and has no relevance. Its clear you didnt even read my posts fully, or perhaps are too stupid to understand them.

oldsoak

01-13-2006, 12:24 PM

I've got a horrible feeling that the pc crowd have taken these soldiers to the cleaners. If it carries on like this, the Danes will be taking soldiers to court for opening fire on insurgents and thereby putting the insurgents in fear of their lives.

Bugalugs

01-13-2006, 02:56 PM

No I think its you that miss the point. Where in the article was physical assualt mentioned? My point was that Danes have been found guilty of using verbal abuse and stress positions on insurgents, while right this very minute, in Denmark, there are conscripts (you know, people forced to join the military? - You didnt get it the first time) getting verbally abused and put in stress positions.

You dont see the similarity? Well consider for a minute that they cant all get a chit to malinger out of everything like you did and maybe it will become more obvious.

Dont forget that the insurgents had a choice not to try to kill the Danes in the first place.

If grab a person in Bourke Street Mall, and force them to adopt a painful stress position against their will, its assault.

when someone comes to the conscipts home and and cable ties their arms and drags them away for national service a rifle point, your anaology makes a little sense. But even the Danish Army cannot physically coerce national service. It can only charge the person for not doing what they are told to do.

Even in a military prison, you cannot be physically coerced to march up and down. So, your analogy still makes no sense.

Sorry to break it to you , but no amount of name-calling and cheap insults in lieu of sensible argument will get you over the line.

Bugalugs

01-13-2006, 03:01 PM

You see in real life that option doesn't exist. Your ass belongs to the army and you are by law obliged to follow orders (and that includes participating in interrogation exercises). A soldier can file a complaint afterwards but that still puts him in the same position as a former detainee.

You are correct that you are physically obliged to follow orders, but the consequence is a charge, reassignment of duties, or dismssal on grounds of unsuitability for service, not a beating.

If they state that refuse to participate, they cannot be physically coerced unless the instructor wants to risk jail time.

I can think of a number of occasion where such behaviour was a career-ender.

THAT is real life!

Bugalugs

01-13-2006, 03:05 PM

Ok lets follow your reasoning to its logical conclution.

There are clubs where persons pay to have needles poked through their genitals.

That makes it ok for me to do the same to you ? (please answer only 'yes' or 'no')

if you dont answer 'yes' to my question then you have invalidated your argument.

/C

Edit: spelling fixes

You make the appropriate point about voluntariness

And apparently next time you see SOP in the street, you are free to poke pins in his genitals with impugnity.

Have fun!

Ericsson

01-13-2006, 06:24 PM

Eric Lucas will torture Kessler tomorrow......
T.K.O in the 8

sickofpretenders

01-14-2006, 12:28 AM

Stick to off topic and humour bugalugs. Everytime you actually try to post something other than "wow, x2, check this out..." you come off looking like a fool. You base you whole argument on the fact that you are too stupid to understand the the link I am making.

I know you are just arguing to be contrary, like the little troll you are. Anyone with a brain that has been on a team or wasnt a chitmonger in the army can see my point.

Bugalugs

01-14-2006, 12:32 AM

How about you come back with something other than personal abuse? You are without doubt one of the most abusive posters on this board.

Your opinions on matters outside your little area of expertise are generally half-baked, but i'm willing to discuss them. You can't handle it with with me or anyone else either!

Royal

01-14-2006, 02:57 AM

If grab a person in Bourke Street Mall, and force them to adopt a painful stress position against their will, its assault.

Indeed it is, but making someone stand in one position (unshackled) while under interrogation is not.

Stress positions are banned for use by UK interrogators too, but the point is that Capt Hommell didn't use stress positions per se - she just made the subjects under interrogation stand still while they were interrogated.

The problem is the Danish use of naturalised Palestinians and (other Arabs) as linguists in sensitive operations. The Dutch (and even the US in my experience) have also been guilty of the "you're from there, you speak the lingo, have a citizenship, oh and, by the way, there's your uniform Captain, you're off back".

Captain Hommell was sold out by her fellow "Danish" "officers".

sickofpretenders

01-14-2006, 04:07 AM

How about you come back with something other than personal abuse? You are without doubt one of the most abusive posters on this board.!

Only to you, and I keep it public rather than your cowardly abuse via the reputation system.

I think this case shows the sad state of politics as a whole. Danes, while pretty far to the left are generally reasonable and intelligent about issues such as this and overall I find it saddening that verbal abuse during a wartime interrogation is an issue at all, let alone an issue worthy of a court or media time.

However it seems today that rights of an insurgent are more important than a soldiers life. People like bugalugs, that have no idea of the realities of a war keep getting focused on tiny things like if you should be able to yell at guy who builds car bombs while the soldiers killed and wounded by those bombs are ignored. The media is ignoring the main issues and the morons keep lapping it up.

Bugalugs

01-14-2006, 04:32 AM

Only to you

only to me?

Caridon, dont use the word logic when you clearly have no concept of it. Your post makes no sense and has no relevance. Its clear you didnt even read my posts fully, or perhaps are too stupid to understand them.

Catalyst, you are a dumbass. Always charging in and throwing your wild assumptions around while you have absolutely no working knowledge of the ADF. Every post you make is pure spam.

Catalyst, you are a stupid little boy. What are you doing on this forum and why do you want to join the Army? Go away.
still just me?

oh BTW you called me a fag in the last good rep you gave me. Did you mean that as a term of derision?

fag is short for faggot i.e. homo****** for those who don't know....

Bugalugs

01-14-2006, 04:41 AM

I find it saddening that verbal abuse during a wartime interrogation is an issue at all, let alone an issue worthy of a court or media time.

However it seems today that rights of an insurgent are more important than a soldiers life. People like bugalugs, that have no idea of the realities of a war keep getting focused on tiny things like if you should be able to yell at guy who builds car bombs while the soldiers killed and wounded by those bombs are ignored. The media is ignoring the main issues and the morons keep lapping it up.

The point is that the verbal and PHYSICAL abuse occured during interrogation, in circumstances where the Danish govt has signed international agreements making such conduct illegal.

The conduct found to have occured also included denial of food, water and toilets.

THis was not questioning conducted immediately post-capture during the shock of capture period. It was interrogation a considerable time after the fact, at which point differant rules apply. Abu Graib stuff, pure and simple.

The extenuating circumstances were that the Danish govt had dropped the ball in not providing clear guidelines. THis provided sufficient mitigation that no punishment was appropriate.

As far as the accused are concerned, ignorance of law may be a mitigating factor, but it is not a defence.

Bugalugs

01-14-2006, 04:55 AM

Indeed it is, but making someone stand in one position (unshackled) while under interrogation is not.

Stress positions are banned for use by UK interrogators too, but the point is that Capt Hommell didn't use stress positions per se - she just made the subjects under interrogation stand still while they were interrogated.

Military prosecutor Benny Holm Frandsen told Copenhagen City Court that
Capt. Annemette Hommel forced the four detainees to kneel in uncomfortable positions while she questioned them.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.denmark03may03,1,3458758.story?coll=bal-iraq-headlines

Hommel was found guilty of forcing detained Iraqis to sit in stressful positions during questioning, and for requiring that guards hold them in that position if they tried to move.
She was also found guilty of using degrading terms such as 'dog', 'dog ****, and '*****' to refer to the detainees.
http://denmark.dk/portal/page?_pageid=374,610572&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&ic_itemid+9

If you make someone stand or kneel for hours of end such that they suffer pain(i.e. stress), and for the express purpose of such, and physically force them to remain in those positions, then its assault and a breach of the Geneva Conventions, whether they are military or civilians prisoners.

Stress positions were not the only issue. Denial of food, water and toilets such that they starve, bleach and crap/piss themselves are also breaches of human rights that the Danish Govt had signed up to.

The Danish Govt needs to take a lot of the blame here. They signed up to a set of rules and didnt brief their int people properly. However a lot of what the soldiers did, on an individual basis, has the Abu Graib mindset written all over it. So much for winning hearts and minds.

Royal

01-14-2006, 07:17 AM

sickofpretenders

01-14-2006, 07:49 AM

If you make someone stand or kneel for hours of end such that they suffer pain(i.e. stress), and for the express purpose of such, and physically force them to remain in those positions, then its assault and a breach of the Geneva Conventions, whether they are military or civilians prisoners.

The Danish Govt needs to take a lot of the blame here. They signed up to a set of rules and didnt brief their int people properly. However a lot of what the soldiers did, on an individual basis, has the Abu Graib mindset written all over it. So much for winning hearts and minds.

Are you just being a troll or do you, as an Australian soldier, believe that our Danish allies should be punished for doing something to a suspect, when they would do worse to their own conscripts or volunteers? Every deployed member of Aus SF has been through similar or worse.

I know a lot of Danes, both civilians and military. What you have written is pure garbage and an insult to one of the most tolerant, carefull and intelligent nations in the world.

Dont talk about hearts and minds when you have no idea about Denmark or their efforts here in Iraq, and indeed no idea about Iraq in general.

caridon

01-14-2006, 08:07 AM

Apathy

01-14-2006, 09:43 AM

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.denmark03may03,1,3458758.story?coll=bal-iraq-headlines

http://denmark.dk/portal/page?_pageid=374,610572&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&ic_itemid+9

If you make someone stand or kneel for hours of end such that they suffer pain(i.e. stress), and for the express purpose of such, and physically force them to remain in those positions, then its assault and a breach of the Geneva Conventions, whether they are military or civilians prisoners.

Stress positions were not the only issue. Denial of food, water and toilets such that they starve, bleach and crap/piss themselves are also breaches of human rights that the Danish Govt had signed up to.

The Danish Govt needs to take a lot of the blame here. They signed up to a set of rules and didnt brief their int people properly. However a lot of what the soldiers did, on an individual basis, has the Abu Graib mindset written all over it. So much for winning hearts and minds.

So you're saying that we shouldn't physically or mentally hurt them in any way. Instead we should just ask them nicely over a cup of tea.

Please shut the **** up.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b101/apathy18/1137237591549.jpg

sickofpretenders

01-14-2006, 03:38 PM

funny I se your point and se that yoiu are WRONG.

And you havent answerd my question. Please do (just 'yes' or 'no')

/C

You say your from the land of the vikings but you think yelling at people is assualt and should be punished. My history is bad but didnt the vikings do a lot worse than call people dogs and make them stand still for a couple hours?

Are you a liar or an idiot? just answer "liar" or "idiot" if you answer anything else you are wrong. Duh.

Bugalugs

01-14-2006, 04:28 PM

typical 12 y.o. response from SOP

Bugalugs

01-14-2006, 04:29 PM

So you're saying that we shouldn't physically or mentally hurt them in any way. Instead we should just ask them nicely over a cup of tea.

Please shut the **** up.

No, I wont shut up, on the contrary I'll shout it from the battlements thank you very much.

Bugalugs

01-14-2006, 04:31 PM

She wasn't found guilty of denial of food, water or latrines - because she didn't deny them those things.

She was found guilty of verbal abuse - big deal and using positions that the Palestinians working for her considered to be stress positions. Which aren't.

As to your last paragraph - you are talking utter ****e.

I've worked with the Danes and there is no 'Abu Ghraib' mindset with them. Capt Hommell followed her countries SOPs for interrogation to the letter.

It doesnt matter what the Palestinians believed (since the implication of your post is they are born liars), but what the Court believed.

And teh Danes were using similar SOP's to Abu Graib, apparently.....

Bugalugs

01-14-2006, 04:40 PM

Are you just being a troll or do you, as an Australian soldier, believe that our Danish allies should be punished for doing something to a suspect, when they would do worse to their own conscripts or volunteers? Every deployed member of Aus SF has been through similar or worse.

VOLUNTEER is the key word, that even you let slip out in your argument. Last I heard people also volunteered for SF. In western armies that comply with human right OBLIGATIONS even conscripts would not be interrogated without volunteering to do so, lest it be classed as assault. Even if it happens somewhere, two wrongs dont make a right, except in your world

They VOLUNTARILY go through that training to better prepare themself for if they are captured by a heathen country that has no respect for human rights and interrogates prisoners in breach of the Geneva Conventions.

errr......like North Korea, Saddams Iraq, Sudanese....or the Danes, for example!

sorry that just slipped out....

Apathy

01-14-2006, 04:42 PM

No, I wont shut up, on the contrary I'll shout it from the battlements thank you very much.

Good for you. Heres a taco.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b101/apathy18/1135451203646.gif

Bugalugs

01-14-2006, 04:45 PM

I know a lot of Danes, both civilians and military. What you have written is pure garbage and an insult to one of the most tolerant, carefull and intelligent nations in the world.

Dont talk about hearts and minds when you have no idea about Denmark or their efforts here in Iraq, and indeed no idea about Iraq in general.

I've clearly stated that i see the Danish government as culpable for not giving proper guidance to an isolted number of induviduals. Its the Danes themselves who held the trial and cleaned their own house. Plus I think Margaret is cute.

Cut the cheap shots, it smells of desperation...

Bugalugs

01-14-2006, 04:46 PM

Good for you. Heres a taco.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b101/apathy18/1135451203646.gif

Shall I take that as the ten-count having been called for you?

Bugalugs

01-14-2006, 04:52 PM

She wasn't found guilty of denial of food, water or latrines - because she didn't deny them those things.

fair cop. I missed that.

She was found guilty of verbal abuse - big deal and using positions that the Palestinians working for her considered to be stress positions. Which aren't.

The Court thought so......whats your definiton of a stress position?[/QUOTE]

As to your last paragraph - you are talking utter ****e.

I've worked with the Danes and there is no 'Abu Ghraib' mindset with them. Capt Hommell followed her countries SOPs for interrogation to the letter.

My point, and that of the Court in not punishing the soldiers, is that the SOP's were poor, which allowed the Abu Graib mindset to slip into the way these individuals did their job. I'm not ascribing that mindset to the whole country.

Apathy

01-14-2006, 04:55 PM

Shall I take that as the ten-count having been called for you?

Hey, I just don't want to argue with some European over the internet. I find little benefit from internet arguments and I really don't want to get involved in this.

But I shall congratulate you! Con****inggratulations sir! You have just wasted hours of your life to argue with a person that you will never know nor meet in real life.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b101/apathy18/1130003975681.jpg

Bugalugs

01-14-2006, 04:59 PM

Apathy

01-14-2006, 05:04 PM

It hones my skills for dealing with idiots - something I have to do at work quite often.

And I'm not European, though do align myself with the "Euro-Wussies" to some degree.

just punch out matey, and contemplate your parachute on the way down....

You waste hours of your life arguing with "idiots" on the internet so you can prepare to waste even more hours arguing with "idiots" in real life. BRILLIANT!

Bugalugs

01-14-2006, 05:06 PM

You waste hours of your life arguing with "idiots" on the internet so you can prepare to waste even more hours arguing with "idiots" in real life. BRILLIANT!

tell me, why did you even post here if thats your attitude?

p.s. not saying that you in particular are an idiot....

Apathy

01-14-2006, 05:16 PM

tell me, why did you even post here if thats your attitude?

p.s. not saying that you in particular are an idiot....

...I don't know. Ain't that strange sometimes. You do something only to question your actions later. Im questioning the logic of my original post right now. Was I arguing with you back then? Or was I just pointing out the flaw in your argument? Would that count as arguing? If so, then is that right or wrong? Is it not human nature to be a contradict one's self at times? Hmm....this is some deep **** right here. I think I need to lie down and think about this befo....Oh....look it's raining. Im going to sing the Doom song now. Doom doom doom doom doom! Doom doom doom doooooom....doom...doom doom doom doom doom.

:D

EDIT: I know.

Bugalugs

01-14-2006, 05:24 PM

haha!

huh?

Bugalugs

01-14-2006, 05:41 PM

I do see your point about the intranet ahguments, though.

I usually stay out of them unless I see something so completely and outrageously wrong that I am complelled to jump in, even if its a happy little circle-jerk like this thread was before i posted

caridon

01-14-2006, 06:15 PM

You say your from the land of the vikings but you think yelling at people is assualt and should be punished. My history is bad but didnt the vikings do a lot worse than call people dogs and make them stand still for a couple hours?

Are you a liar or an idiot? just answer "liar" or "idiot" if you answer anything else you are wrong. Duh.

So you cant answer the question and resort to namecalling.
Impressive (NOT).

Thankyou for proving that i was right about you.

/C

sickofpretenders

01-15-2006, 04:12 AM

yawn. Now I remember why I stopped posting here.

Bugalugs

01-15-2006, 05:11 AM

because you cant hack genuine debate?

sickofpretenders

01-15-2006, 08:00 AM

because you cant hack genuine debate?

No, just the worthless spam that spews out of trolls like you, the 10 year old logic of idiots like caridon and the liberal media rhetoric that gets chanted by both of you with zero real knowledge or even common sense.

A glance over your last 200 (and presumambly further back) and anyone can see 95% of your posts are worthless spam in OT&H and the other 5% are pure flame bait. You contribute nothing to the forum.

Resurrection

01-15-2006, 08:14 AM

Haha, this is damn pathetic. Verbal "punishment" does not constitute an abuse, especially given the circumstances.

Upfrontreporting

01-15-2006, 01:14 PM

Buggerlugs wrote:

because you cant hack genuine debate?

Nope.. because your a dumb sack of ignorance, the Danish incident was non-existent, the Ali-babas who were interrogated suffered no more harm than your avarage street-thug would suffer from a city-cop - being none. Wake up!

Royal

01-15-2006, 01:21 PM

Long time no speak mate, how's things?

Bugalugs

01-15-2006, 01:51 PM

Buggerlugs wrote:

Nope.. because your a dumb sack of ignorance, the Danish incident was non-existent, the Ali-babas who were interrogated suffered no more harm than your avarage street-thug would suffer from a city-cop - being none. Wake up!
since when does a street cop put a prisoner in the lock in a stress position during interrogation and physically force them to stay there if they collapse? They dont. Because its assault.

And any cop who used culturally sensitive abuse like they did would lose their badge. Your police analogy does not stack up.

Upfrontreporting

01-15-2006, 01:53 PM

That's absolutely right.. In fairytale land they don't!

Bugalugs

01-15-2006, 01:55 PM

No, just the worthless spam that spews out of trolls like you, the 10 year old logic of idiots like caridon and the liberal media rhetoric that gets chanted by both of you with zero real knowledge or even common sense.

A glance over your last 200 (and presumambly further back) and anyone can see 95% of your posts are worthless spam in OT&H and the other 5% are pure flame bait. You contribute nothing to the forum.

still nothing left to contribute to the subject, just personal abuse in lieu of reasoning.

Bugalugs

01-15-2006, 01:56 PM

That's absolutely right.. In fairytale land they don't!

If caught, the police end up in front of a court. Guess what? They got caught this time.

zing!

Apathy

01-15-2006, 01:58 PM

Penquins!

(This message is too ****ing short!)

Bugalugs

01-15-2006, 02:00 PM

Penquins!

(This message is too ****ing short!)

no its not, Penguins are generally quite short in the normal course of things

Upfrontreporting

01-15-2006, 02:01 PM

The thing is Bugalugs, in order to be able to be punished, you have to have done something ilegal. In my view a derogatory name hurled at a bad guy isn't something you would punish a cop for.

Bugalugs

01-15-2006, 02:10 PM

The thing is Bugalugs, in order to be able to be punished, you have to have done something ilegal. In my view a derogatory name hurled at a bad guy isn't something you would punish a cop for.

The thing is, Upfront, that culturally sensitive derogatory terms i.e "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;", and physically maintained stress positions "i.e cruel treatment" during imprisonment or interrogation in particular is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and hence illegal.

God save us all from the rule of law....its ruining the fun

sickofpretenders

01-16-2006, 07:33 AM

So you claim to be a soldier and can honestly say you agree that making a person stand in one spot for a couple hours and calling them names constitutes cruel treatment and torture?

Fargin

01-16-2006, 08:11 AM

Do you mean forcing someone to sit in an uncomfortabe position, denying them water, blinding them with sandbags, exposing them to changing temperatures untill they cramp up and lose consciousness while you degrade and threaten them?

Royal

01-16-2006, 08:23 AM

Bugalugs

01-16-2006, 01:20 PM

So you claim to be a soldier and can honestly say you agree that making a person stand in one spot for a couple hours and calling them names constitutes cruel treatment and torture?

I claim to be a soldier with a better than average knowledge of the rules that my Government has directed us to follow.

Read Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions. Thats a good beginners guide and the overarching guide for the rights and responsibilities of soldiers. At that point youll probably be in a better position than the Danes were.

You can use that as a stepping stone to reading the rest of Geneva Conventions 3 and 4 on the issue that make it abundantly clear what the deal is.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/CONVPRES?OpenView

Bugalugs

01-16-2006, 01:40 PM

No he doesn't, because that wasn't what was done by Capt Hommells team.

Hes still partly right - the court found them guilty of using streesful (i.e. painful) posiions and physicallly forcing compliance with maintaining that position.

Hommel was found guilty of forcing detained Iraqis to sit in stressful positions during questioning, and for requiring that guards hold them in that position if they tried to move.
She was also found guilty of using degrading terms such as 'dog', 'dog ****, and '*****' to refer to the detainees.

http://denmark.dk/portal/page?_pageid=374,610572&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&ic_nextitemno=1&ic_itemid=914371

The funny thing about this is, there could be a genuine debate here about the nature and applicability of the Geneva Conventions, and other views to my own on the topic that could be keenly and usefully debated. (and will be done so in the Danish Appeal Court)

This debate could have swum a few good laps by now, however everyone who has responded so far is still thrashing around in the shallow end......

sickofpretenders

01-16-2006, 05:42 PM

This debate could have swum a few good laps by now, however everyone who has responded so far is still thrashing around in the shallow end......

So true. Its strange you would comment on your own shortfalls so openly:

I asked you a question and you dodged it. I guess you have no opinion bar trolling

Bugalugs

01-16-2006, 06:19 PM

So true. Its strange you would comment on your own shortfalls so openly:

Its not strangeat all. I am open and accepting of other, well considered opinions.

There is lots of tolerance in the international law area to divergent, well-considered opinions, due to the inherent nature of international law.

Your opinions on the issue, whilst divergent, has not yet been shown to be well- considered. I am inviting you to prove me wrong

Bugalugs

01-16-2006, 06:21 PM

I guess you have no opinion bar trolling

Well thats not going to convince me of the merits of any of your arguments...

Bugalugs

01-16-2006, 06:29 PM

So you claim to be a soldier and can honestly say you agree that making a person stand in one spot for a couple hours and calling them names constitutes cruel treatment and torture?

Is this the question to which you refer?

I consider there are two questions there: first

"So you claim to be a soldier?"

and

"Can you honestly say etc etc......."

I answered the first question quite clearly in the next post where is state "I claim to be a soldier....etc etc".

As for the second question, that has been answered by my quite clearly in a number of previous posts, including the post immediately before yours whereby I responded to UpFrontReporting. Forgive me if I have little tolerance for spoon-feeding people...

sickofpretenders

01-17-2006, 02:27 AM

Is this the question to which you refer?

I consider there are two questions there: first

"So you claim to be a soldier?"

and

"Can you honestly say etc etc......."

I answered the first question quite clearly in the next post where is state "I claim to be a soldier....etc etc".

As for the second question, that has been answered by my quite clearly in a number of previous posts, including the post immediately before yours whereby I responded to UpFrontReporting. Forgive me if I have little tolerance for spoon-feeding people...

Wow. Thats a lot of writing to avoid having to say "yes".