French surprise in Haiti

[budanski]

French surprise in Haiti
WashingtonTimes (http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20040219-090339-9885r.htm)

By Kenneth R. Timmerman
Published February 20, 2004

****When I first heard the announcement from the French Foreign Ministry in Paris, I thought it was a joke.

****France is considering sending troops to Haiti, smack in the middle of America's Caribbean back yard, to quell unrest against a Marxist-leaning president by fellow Haitians who reject his iron grip on power.

****Wasn't that precisely what the Monroe Doctrine, announced in 1823 as Europe sought to subvert local governments in America's backyard, was supposed to prevent?

****The French claim they have 2,000 citizens living in Haiti, and must send a "rescue mission" to protect them during the violence. If that sounds familiar, it should. France has used similar pretexts in Congo, Ivory Coast, Chad and elsewhere whenever it has sought to reverse regimes, install friendlier dictators or otherwise protect French national interests.

****Despite all the huffing and puffing of Foreign Minister Dominique Galouzeau de Villepin during the Iraq crisis last year, the French have shown repeatedly they will act without so much as a nod to the United Nations whenever they feel their interests require a rapid response.

****The French move has apparently taken Secretary of State Colin Powell by surprise. As The Washington Times' Sharon Behn reported Wednesday, Mr. de Villepin breathed not a word of his intentions when he met with Mr. Powell last Friday. But in Paris, the mecurial Frenchman was telling reporters France could intervene in a heartbeat, and pointed out France has 4,000 troops in nearby Martinique and Guadaloupe, French overseas departments.

****The U.S. is in a quandary. The State Department says it is "deeply engaged" in Haiti to effect a peaceful resolution to the 12-day old revolt by armed "thugs," but Mr. Powell has made it clear he does not favor sending U.S. troops. So now the French have sprung the trap on him.

****The French foreign minister's behavior is reminiscent of another time he sandbagged an unsuspecting Mr. Powell, that close advisers to the secretary of state tell me he has never forgotten -- or forgiven.

****The French betrayal of America during the Iraq crisis last year was almost legendary in proportion, but it was widely misreported by a Bush-hating press.

****The version most Americans are familiar with has the French insisting the United States return to the United Nations for yet another Security Council resolution in January and February 2003, to authorize the use of force against Saddam Hussein. When U.S. diplomacy failed, President Bush ordered U.S. troops into Iraq unilaterally.

****While those events did indeed occur, beneath the surface another dance was taking place, a devious dance that had been choreographed by French President Jacques Chirac and his preening foreign minister, Dominique Galouzeau de Villepin.

****In fact, I can now reveal, Mr. Chirac personally telephoned President Bush at the White House to assure him France would support the United States at the U.N. in seeking a new Security Council resolution. Mr. Chirac even ordered the French Joint Chiefs of Staff to prepare units to be send to Iraq as part of a U.S.-led liberation army.

****But on Jan. 20, 2003, Mr. de Villepin pulled the rug out from under Mr. Powell and the president, announcing behind Mr. Powell's back at the United Nations that France would under no circumstances send troops to Iraq -- in direct contradiction of those promises he and Mr. Chirac had made to the United States.

****To this day, the French have remained unrepentant about their lies, apparently in the belief this is what big boys do when they play on the world stage.

****The rest, as they say, is history. The president's staff was so angered by the French perfidy that they renamed the French toast on Air Force One "freedom toast," and Americans were soon munching on "freedom fries" as well.

****The situation in Haiti is complex. President Jean-Bertrand Aristide, a once-elected president, has now become "an opponent of democracy," says Constantine Menges, a former Reagan administration NSC official who helped plan the invasion of Grenada and the overthrow of its New Jewel Party communists in 1983.

****Some of the "thugs" that he complains are killing innocent Haitians are being "led by gangs he armed for the purpose of opposing the genuine and unarmed democrats" who have been seeking Mr. Aristide's ouster through elections, Mr. Menges adds.

****Into such a witches' brew, simmering right on America's back porch, the last thing we need is to bring in the French. By now, Colin Powell should understand Foreign Minister Villepin is up to his old tricks. French troops in Haiti will not absolve the United States from its responsibilities; they will only make matters worse.

Simple. I say we invoke the Monroe Doctrine and blow the frogs out of the water. ;)

[raid]

Damn! our super secret plan to take over the whole south america area has been uncovered!

yet another marvellous unbiased article from the top french supporter from this forums... :roll: I want my minute back.

[tooms]

Haiti is for us a gate to take over Louisiana

[Javehn]

edit

[budanski]

Damn! our super secret plan to take over the whole south america area has been uncovered!

yet another marvellous unbiased article from the top french supporter from this forums... :roll: I want my minute back.

Silly boy, proxy wars (http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20040202-085403-5900r.htm) are the latest trends.

[radon]

Better: are still the latest trend.

[mustamato]

France should use the "war on terror"-BS, then they can do whatever they want.

[Royal]

I've never been a great fan of the Washington Times (not that I'm an expert on US papers).


European weapons sales would be dangerous for Taiwan because the embargo is important for the island democracy to be able to defend itself. Its security is based on its ability to prevent the People's Liberation Army (PLA) from crossing the Taiwian Strait for an invasion.

Bollocks. The PLA could cross the straights any time it wanted to. What prevents it is the fear of retaliation (and probably more importantly nowadays, trade embargoes) from the US and to a lesser extent Europe.

That said China has put huge efforts into espionage, just giving them the stuff is hardly going to help.

[martinexsquaddie]

why not let the french have ago
at least if CNN start whineing
the french spokesman will just claim not to speak english and shrug his shoulders :lol:
Hati needs to be re colonised by someone its a total mess

[fred_engles]

I've never been a great fan of the Washington Times (not that I'm an expert on US papers).You're right on that - the Times is a, to be generous, below average rag. I've read small town weeklies that were substantially more professional.

Which is hardly surprising, since the WashTimes is moonie (http://www.unification.net/)-owned.

[morlick]

Budansky, the "copy-paste" man is back.

[fantassin]

Another nice try by budanski to pour a bit of oil on the French bashing fire.

Looks like your powder is wet today.

[Pégase]

Haiti is for us a gate to take over Louisiana

allright, and the Louisiana of 1800, not just the state of today ;)

[Kitsune]

Damn, some Americans are close to uncover our evil plan to conquer Haiti, set up a European style socialist regime there and install nuclear rockets to threaten the US mainland.
We should send in a covert extermination team to silence this "budanski", immediately.
:-*$




p-)

[budanski]

Budansky, the "copy-paste" man is back.

You should have a go at "copy-paste", maybe then you'll spell my name correctly.

[Salty Dog]

he posted an article, what's all the hub bub?

[Caesar]

This article is biaised and it's obvious the journalist dislike the French.

I say it's about time a great nation send troops there to cease the violence and protect citizens. Even if it's only to protect their own population, the French in Haiti. It's unbeleiveble what's happening and see the world doing nothing.

On a side note, Canada and other countries will send a delegation in Haiti as well. There's not only the French troops concerned.

[tooms]

Damn! our super secret plan to take over the whole south america area has been uncovered!

yet another marvellous unbiased article from the top french supporter from this forums... :roll: I want my minute back.

Silly boy, proxy wars (http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20040202-085403-5900r.htm) are the latest trends.


you shouldn't care of france selling materials to china, you always say we product ****ty weapons; it will be benefict for our both countries :)
-we make money
-china will not be a threat because of their new crappy frog materials

:hug:




Haiti is for us a gate to take over Louisiana

allright, and the Louisiana of 1800, not just the state of today ;)

of course ;)

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Apart from the French arguably talking out of both sides of their mouths - where is the outrage from the press, the left, and Europe?

Shhh..do you hear that? That's the sound of nobody giving a $hit about this. But the press & Europe erupted over America acting unilaterally & not waiting for the UN in Iraq!

Where are the demonstrations in the streets of Europe? Where are the "advocates" going to Haiti to act as human shields against the imperialistic French? Where is Sean Penn? No blood for sugar cane! We must have the UN!

Oh wait, it's not the US acting...it must be ok then.

[California Joe]

The place is like some kind of freak show french speaking, voodoo practicing, tire burning, cesspool anyway. It's like a Clive Barker movie there. Like Mad Max in a tropical environment.

[scm77]

So the US rips France when they won't help with the war in Iraq. Now their ripping france for being peacekeepers. Damn those French bastards! :roll:

[fantassin]

The difference between the USA going to Iraq and France possibly (I hope not) going to Haiti is that France has NOTHING to gain in Haiti and everything to lose.

-No natural ressources
-No need for new bases since France already has Martinique, Guadeloupe and FR Guyana in the area
-It's probably one of the crappiest place in the world
-It's, with Congo, one of the first two countries were AIDS started
-France knew that all along sinced Haiti was the first French colony to be granted independance, in 1800;if it was of ANY value, it would have been kept much longer, like say, Djibouti, which only became independant from France in 1976...

Instead of trying to make ridiculous comparisons, the USA should be happy someone is trying to police up the place.

After all, boat peoples from Haiti will land in the USA, not in France if the situation becomes even worse...

[California Joe]

Maybe French soldiers are desperately low on the AIDS virus and need a source. Maybe Baby Doc Duvalier told them it was a good time to visit. That place is a ****hole. Like Somalia with ringworm.

[fantassin]

For AIDS sources, no problems, we have the Central African Republic, Ivory Coast, Djibouti, Sénégal, Gabon and Guyana which are all good places to catch it from the local whores.

Or behind a train station in most big French cities with a smackhead who's desperate for a fix...

[California Joe]

Good point. Then again they'd probably send the Legion anyway eh?

[usa320]

good...at least france will get its money's worth on its army.


ya know what tehy say about france...


"Going to war without france is like going duck hunting without your acordian"

[fantassin]

once again, dear foreign contributors, the French armed forces aren't limited to the FFL....

The FFL has 2 Inf Bn, 1 light armoured Bn, 2 Eng and 3 Bn overseas made up of only 2 Co. they also have 2 trng and spt Bn

Any other units part of the rest of the FR army, for example any of the other non-FFL 18 Inf Bn, could very well be deployed to Haiti like they are currently deployed in Ivory Coast, Afghanistan or any other place.


As for the previous oh so intelligent comment, I will give the floor to someone who knows what he's talking about for a change.


Surrender Monkeys—Not

The NATO supreme commander speaks out

By Christopher ****ey
Newsweek
Updated: 6:41 a.m.*ET Sept. 28, 2003

Oct. 6 issue - Gen. James L. Jones is the first U.S. Marine to serve as NATO’s Supreme Allied Commander, Europe. Having grown up in France, where his father worked for an American company after WWII, he has a keen sense of Continental sensitivities, especially as NATO tries to address the demands of new regional and global threats. Jones sat down last week with NEWSWEEK’s Christopher ****ey for an exclusive interview. Excerpts:

advertisement****EY: What do you make of the rift between the United States and France?

JONES: It saddens me, to be honest with you. I grew up in both cultures. I identify with what France went through in the difficult times of Algeria, of Indochina, the postwar reconstruction, which I lived through starting in 1947. I remember the big green buses with the white stars driving all over Paris—only Americans could get on those buses. It was possible for American families to come and be stationed in France and never speak French, or never even have contact with French culture. I think that created perceptions and divisions that perhaps contributed to the state of affairs—I don’t know what it is. But I regret it, and I can tell you that at the military level it does not exist.

Some Americans call the French “surrender monkeys.”

France has probably the most expeditionary army [i.e., ready to deploy to distant battlefields] in Europe. And writ large. They have impressive military capabilities across the whole spectrum of operations. They’re good at peacekeeping; their Air Force is modern, state of the art; their Navy is modern; their land Army I know about because I served with them in northern Iraq 11 years ago, and I know their generals—this is a very, very fine army.



But then, not everybody can be as knowledgeable on the subject as usa320 who surely knows better than a four-star USMC general

[2Sheds_Jackson]

The difference between the USA going to Iraq and France possibly (I hope not) going to Haiti is that France has NOTHING to gain in Haiti and everything to lose.

-No natural ressources
-No need for new bases since France already has Martinique, Guadeloupe and FR Guyana in the area
-It's probably one of the crappiest place in the world
-It's, with Congo, one of the first two countries were AIDS started
-France knew that all along sinced Haiti was the first French colony to be granted independance, in 1800;if it was of ANY value, it would have been kept much longer, like say, Djibouti, which only became independant from France in 1976...

Instead of trying to make ridiculous comparisons, the USA should be happy someone is trying to police up the place.

After all, boat peoples from Haiti will land in the USA, not in France if the situation becomes even worse...

You're right about the boat people - though I haven't heard of any since we changed our policy (back).

But that's a great point you made about having something to gain. It's exactly what I'm saying.

I believe that many people who opposed US Iraq policy did so not based on the reality of the situation - but based on the fact that the US could gain something from it in the process. Their dislike of the US outweighed the potential good the operation could bring. They would have preferred the US to do the heavy lifting, then hand it off to someone else & go home.

Since the French are not seen to be as "evil" as America by these people, they are silent on this one. True the French haven't proposed things on a scale of the US in Iraq, but they're proposing unilateral action & completely circumventing the UN. If it was wrong for the US to do it, why is it ok for the French?

Of course the French can gain something from going to Haiti. If they couldn't, they wouldn't go. No nation commits military forces and huge piles of $$ unless they can prove to thier people & legislators that it's for the good of the country. You've gotta sell these things.

[fantassin]

That applies to "ordinary" countries, not to France and the USA, the only two countries in the world that are both 100% sure that their own system is so good that it should apply to the rest of the world.

If France goes there that would just be on humanitarian grounds since Haiti has rock all to offer.

Name just one thing France could get out of such intervention apart from the support of thirld world countries who like France for just that reason: to come to the rescue of the weak when everybody looks away.

France has done it countless times before in different backwaters; you only notice this one because it's close to home...

This support then pays good dividend in the UN when the USA is trying to force on war on the rest of the world, true...that's how de Villepin got a standing ovation in the UN.

[ibstolidude]

France should use the "war on terror"-BS, then they can do whatever they want.

I think that is his point.

You know "look at the ****ing pot calling the kettle black" - on the one hand they are opposed to other's unilateral missions with out international approval, on the other they excuse their own unilateral missions from needing international approval. All governments seek to do what is in their best interest.

Change soap boxes; the rot from your current one is affecting your thought.

[ibstolidude]

The place is like some kind of freak show french speaking, voodoo practicing, tire burning, cesspool anyway. It's like a Clive Barker movie there. Like Mad Max in a tropical environment.
I hope they leave us out..


talk about being a stranger in a strange land...no amount of beard and man jammis will help ones 'honkey ass' blend-in nor will speaking the language fluently and drinking "Slivo".

Zone 5 please don't call me back. No one liked you the first time.

[fred_engles]

on the one hand they are opposed to other's unilateral missions with out international approval, on the other they excuse their own unilateral missions from needing international approval.Umm...the french were invited (http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/news/10336.php). That makes a big ol' difference.

[cut]

You know "look at the f*** pot calling the kettle black" - on the one hand they are opposed to other's unilateral missions with out international approval, on the other they excuse their own unilateral missions from needing international approval.



This is a civil war, France are not starting a war. Haiti is a former french colony, so I would be suprised if there is a decent sized french population. Because this is civil war the UN has no real say, unless of course if there is genocide, which there isn't. The french say they are going to send troops to protect there citizens which is fair enough, I would be against it if we (UK) were to do this, or if the US decided to do it.

so to recap, yes it is unilateral, that's fine, the UN has no say in this kind of situation.

[ibstolidude]

You know "look at the f*** pot calling the kettle black" - on the one hand they are opposed to other's unilateral missions with out international approval, on the other they excuse their own unilateral missions from needing international approval.



This is a civil war, France are not starting a war. Haiti is a former french colony, so I would be suprised if there is a decent sized french population. Because this is civil war the UN has no real say, unless of course if there is genocide, which there isn't. The french say they are going to send troops to protect there citizens which is fair enough, I would be against it if we (UK) were to do this, or if the US decided to do it.

so to recap, yes it is unilateral, that's fine, the UN has no say in this kind of situation. 1) I was only clarifying someones point/stance it is not my stance. I was explaining Bud's position for posting.

Before I go on let me make certain I understand you -the UN has no say in civil war?

[cut]

not usually no, but there are cases when it can, like in bosnia. but if there was civil war in a country trying to break free of communism you wouldn't want anyone to intervene would you?

I could check it out and verify it but as with all things UN, it's dull.

[ibstolidude]

not usually no, but there are cases when it can, like in bosnia. but if there was civil war in a country trying to break free of communism you wouldn't want anyone to intervene would you?

I could check it out and verify it but as with all things UN, it's dull.
atleast that I can appreciate

[MetalBoy]

Uh oh, President Aristide better asign his top security agents at their Haitian McDonald's, when the French troops see them they won't have a choice but to smash its windows and procure some Haitian Happy Meals.

[Pégase]

Uh oh, President Aristide better asign his top security agents at their Haitian McDonald's, when the French troops see them they won't have a choice but to smash its windows and procure some Haitian Happy Meals.

would you have some obsession about McDonald's or somethin ?
mental troubles ?

[California Joe]

I think I speak for all right thinking people when I say, if the French can straighten that place out, more power to them.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Apart from the French arguably talking out of both sides of their mouths - where is the outrage from the press, the left, and Europe?

Shhh..do you hear that? That's the sound of nobody giving a $hit about this. But the press & Europe erupted over America acting unilaterally & not waiting for the UN in Iraq!

Where are the demonstrations in the streets of Europe? Where are the "advocates" going to Haiti to act as human shields against the imperialistic French? Where is Sean Penn? No blood for sugar cane! We must have the UN!

Oh wait, it's not the US acting...it must be ok then.


Good post!

Saying it like it is.

[Sixgun Symphony]

So the US rips France when they won't help with the war in Iraq. Now their ripping france for being peacekeepers. Damn those French bastards! :roll:

The term "peacekeeper" is Orwellian newspeak for soldier.

Peacekeeping? More Orwellian newspeak, they are going in to prop up a government that seems to be losing a civil war.

[Haiw]

Apart from the French arguably talking out of both sides of their mouths - where is the outrage from the press, the left, and Europe?

Shhh..do you hear that? That's the sound of nobody giving a $hit about this. But the press & Europe erupted over America acting unilaterally & not waiting for the UN in Iraq!

Where are the demonstrations in the streets of Europe? Where are the "advocates" going to Haiti to act as human shields against the imperialistic French? Where is Sean Penn? No blood for sugar cane! We must have the UN!

Oh wait, it's not the US acting...it must be ok then.
Actually that's NOT the way it is. The difference is that
A France isn't an agressor and only goes there to calm down the whole ****storm (instead of starting one)
B France doesn't really have any interest in Haïti. So their reasons for going in aren't materialistic or anything like that.

But of course when you want to go cry me a river about double standards again... :roll:


Good post!

Saying it like it is.

[Barry McKockiner]

Damn! our super secret plan to take over the whole south america area has been uncovered!

yet another marvellous unbiased article from the top french supporter from this forums... :roll: I want my minute back.

Silly boy, proxy wars (http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20040202-085403-5900r.htm) are the latest trends.


you shouldn't care of france selling materials to china, you always say we product ****ty weapons; it will be benefict for our both countries :)
-we make money
-china will not be a threat because of their new crappy frog materials

:hug:




Haiti is for us a gate to take over Louisiana

allright, and the Louisiana of 1800, not just the state of today ;)

of course ;)

It certainly didn't stop France from selling illegal weapons to Iraq all the way up to the start of OIF. We found Roland SAM's dated 2002. It seems to me that if France was so genuine about wanting peace, they shouldn't have broken the UN sanctions that they cried so loudly about. In the end, it really came down to France losing money if Saddam was ousted. The outrage here in the US towards France wasn't because of your stance on the war, it was because you were two faced liars that cried out "Peace" while selling weapons to Hussein. There is good reason to be pissed. It's all true.

[Argyll]

Unless there is 100% proof about these sales,they couls easily have come from other sources such as Arms dealers elsewhere,not neccisarily France directly,I'm not defending France in this ,but not everything is as you see,all you need to do is have a look at the so called intelligence of the WMD situation to see that there are "other " possibilities.

[Pégase]

It certainly didn't stop France from selling illegal weapons to Iraq all the way up to the start of OIF. We found Roland SAM's dated 2002. It seems to me that if France was so genuine about wanting peace, they shouldn't have broken the UN sanctions that they cried so loudly about. In the end, it really came down to France losing money if Saddam was ousted. The outrage here in the US towards France wasn't because of your stance on the war, it was because you were two faced liars that cried out "Peace" while selling weapons to Hussein. There is good reason to be pissed. It's all true.

now this one is for you and your total BS spreading toward France
the falses accusations that your administration did and the polish one (ur very dear allied in Iraq), aiming at discrediting France
I really hope I'll never see again this kind of BS spreading and discrediting campaign from anyone mouth or paper, I mean some wars have started between countries for less reasons than that

"Statement by the Spokesperson of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs
Paris, 4 October 2003



The French authorities express their surprise in the wake of the report circulated by the Spokesman of the Polish Defence Ministry concerning the discovery in Iraq of Roland missiles allegedly manufactured in 2003.
The French Foreign Ministry Spokesperson has already issued, on 16 April this year, the necessary clarifications following the appearance of similar press reports. I therefore remind you of the information given on that occasion:
Like several other Western States, France exported weapons to Iraq in the 1970s and '80s: Roland 1 missiles and missile firing systems in 1980-81, Roland 2 missiles and missile firing systems in 1983-86. No Roland 3 models were ever exported to Iraq.
No permit to supply weapons or spare parts to Iraq has been issued since July 1990. France has strictly implemented the weapons embargo since then.
Moreover, the Roland 2 and Roland 3 production lines were halted, respectively, in 1988 and 1993. It is therefore impossible for Roland missiles to have been manufactured in 2003.
A thorough preliminary check with the French authorities would have prevented the circulation of these erroneous reports."

[Pégase]

and this is for the whole story, translated with systran software, sorry for the comfort :



missiles in Iraq
Wednesday October 8, 2003, by
The Polish soldiers deployed in Iraq within the framework of the international coalition installation by the United States after the war in Iraq, announced there is to have little discovered ground-to-air missiles, of Roland type, manufactured this year. Reacting to this advertisement, the Quay d’Orsay stressed that France n’avait delivered any military equipment to l’Irak since 1990.

"the production of these materials was stopped into 88 for the Roland-2 model, and into 93 for the Roland-3. And since July 1990, it n’y had any delivery d’équipement military French (...) towards l’Irak ", declared a spokesman of the French Ministry for Foreign Affairs. _ "Thus, this n’est not credible d’affirmer that the Roland which have be find it there be a few day have be produce in 2003 and deliver right before l’intervention Anglo-American (...). Thus, there, I be really very formal", have it insist.

Eugeniusz Mleczak, representative of the ministry for Polish defense, had declared before that Polish soldiers had discovered on September 29 in Iraq, in the area of Hilla, an ammunition dump in which four French missiles of Roland type were.

"This n’est not the first time that Polish soldiers find ammunition in Iraq, but we had the surprise to note that these missiles had been produced in 2003", it underlined.

Eugeniusz Mleczak added that the soldiers had been informed of the presence of the missiles by an Iraqi of the area, which had received a reward in exchange of the information. "the ammunition dump was neutralized", specifying the Polish spokesman thus preventing any checking.

Very effective to low and average altitude, according to experts', the Roland missile enters l’équipement of the armies d’une ten country, of which France and l’Allemagne. It is generally used to leave d’un mobile launcher in particular a tank.

Russia, Great Britain and France, inter alia, sold military equipment in Baghdad in the Seventies and Eighties. A strict military embargo was issued in August 1990, after l’invasion of Kowet by the Iraqi forces. Since the beginning of September, Poland, which resolutely supports l’effort military American in Iraq, directs a multinational force in l’une of the four "zones of stabilization" established in the country. It n’est thus not neutral that this " discovery " aims at France which was l’un principal adversaries of military l’intervention against the mode of Saddam Hussein.

Warsaw expresses its "regrets" in Paris

The Polish Minister for defense, Jerzy Szmajdzinski, however regretted Saturday the diffusion by his spokesman of ḻinformation on the seizure by the Polish soldiers in Iraq of the anti-aircraft missiles Roland of Franco-German design, manufactured in 2003.

In an official official statement, M. Szmajdzinski, which "deplores the indications concerning the date of production of these missiles", n’a however not made of flat denial. "All information of the spokesman of the ministry concerning the seizure of Roland missiles, just like information of media relative to this business, n’ont approved neither by the minister nor by l’état-major of l’armée Polish", indicates the official statement. The Polish minister ordered "d’élucider fully this business and to present a report/ratio immediately".

The French president, Jacques Chirac himself, had highly contradicted Saturday that anti-aircraft missiles Roland of Franco-German design, manufactured in 2003, could be found in Iraq, because those "have not been manufactured any more for 15 years". "I believe that the Polish soldiers made a confusion, which could have been avoided with a serious checking which apparently n’a not carried out, the French president to l’issue European top of Rome indicated, which launched the intergovernmental Conference (IGC). I l’ai says frankly, in a friendly way and firmly with the Prime Minister of Poland."

Industrial sources in Paris, it was confirmed that the mention 2003 was reproduced well on the missiles but qu’elle the date meant on which the weapons had been controlled by an Iraqi company. "a missile that ages and they should be controlled from time to time. Indeed, there is a date of control with the name d’une company, but these missiles were built quite front ", one specified of the same source. "C’est a directed business because on the photographs, one does not show qu’un side of the missiles on which figure GKN 2003 whereas l’année of manufacture is of l’autre side", one insisted.

In the morning, the Quay d’Orsay had reiterated its surprise. "France applied in a strict way l’embargo to the weapons after l’invasion of Kuwait by the Iraqi forces in August 1990, underlines an official statement of the Ministry for Foreign Affairs. No authorization of supply, including for n’a, spare parts given to l’Irak after July 1990." Moreover, "the production lines of Roland 2 and Roland 3 were stopped respectively in 1988 and 1993. It is thus impossible that Roland missiles were produced into 2003", continues the text.

Already in April...

Last April, the American magazine Newsweek had published a file in which it affirmed, on the faith of testimony d’un officer of American information, lieutenant Greg Holmes, that 51 Franco-German missiles Roland-2 gone back to 2002 had been found close to Baghdad. L’information had been immediately contradicted by Paris with exactly the same arguments qu’aujourd’hui. "C’est an old history which rebounds regularly. The missiles found by the Poles are the same ones as those discovered in April ", considers one source close to the file what implies a twisted blow.

April 4, 2003, the Americans presented at l’aéroport of Baghdad cases filled with French missiles of type Roland, missiles manufactured by Euromissile, a consortium installed in Fontenay-Aux-Roses and made up with l’origine by the companies Aérospatiale and Matra.

D’après the identifications carried out on the spot by the Americans and thus ****e to guarantee, the seized missiles would have been delivered to the mode of Saddam Hussein lasting l’année past, which would constitute coarsest of the infringements to the rules of l’embargo imposed by l’ONU.

The response of the quay d’Orsay was as follows at the time d’un point-of-press : " Like several other Western States, whose d’ailleurs United States, France exported towards l’Irak weapons in the Seventies and Eighties : missiles and systems of shooting Roland 1 in 1980-81, missiles and systems of shooting Roland 2 in 1983-86. All the supplies, including the spare parts, were stopped from l’été 1990. France applied in a strict way l’embargo to the weapons since then.

We confirm in particular qu’aucune export towards l’Irak of Roland missiles, or parts spare n’a take place after 1990. The marking mentioned by Newsweek (05/11 KND 2002) does not correspond to the markings carried out by l’entreprise French MBDA on these missiles. The production lines Roland 1 and Roland 2 were stopped respectively in 1988 and 1993. It is thus impossible qu’un missile Roland 2 was produced in 2002.

This specified, the Iraqis had large quantities of spare parts and could cannibaliser of the stations of shooting by affixing new markings there. It is thus possible that Roland missiles remained operational. Do I have to point out that we had informed the American authorities fully of l’état of our former exports in 1991 at the time of the preparation of the war of the Gulf, to which France had taken part ?

S’agissant of ḻallegation concerning the discovery d’un station of shooting calcined Roland 3, two things should be pointed out :

d’une share, no missile nor station of shooting Roland 3 n’a ever exported towards l’Irak. This type of missile was exported very little in a general way and only within the framework matched ḏexportation d’une strict clause of not-re-exportation.

in addition, to my knowledge, the stations of shooting Roland 2 and Roland 3 are nearly identical because they differ only by the software. To be able to make the distinction on a calcined station concerns l’exploit and we would wish to check.

D’une general manner if the American authorities lay out d’éléments leading them to put questions in connection with possible violations of l’embargo by individuals or French companies, we would wish to have of it communication so d’effectuer the checks which s’imposeraient and if necessary, to sanction d’éventuelles infringements.

But at this stage, the insinuations appearing in l’article to which you refer do not appear absolutely founded us on convincing elements. "

More perfidious plenipotentiary ḻambassador of France in Arménie specified on April 29, 2003 : " Like several other Western States, whose d’ailleurs United States, France exported towards l’Irak weapons in the Seventies and Eighties : missiles and systems of TIR ROLAND 1 in 1980-81, missiles and systems of TIR ROLAND 2 in 1983-86. All the supplies, including the spare parts, were stopped from l’été 1990. France applied in a strict way l’embargo to the weapons since then.

D’après our checks, it is exact that the production lines concerning the missiles Roland 1 and 2 were indeed stopped at the dates known as. Nevertheless the system Roland d’interception is always into force in particular in the framework of L’OCCAR (joint Organization of matter co-operation d’armement) founded in 1991 by l’Allemagne and France.

France claims more not to have delivered spare parts. That remains to be seen. The deliveries are carried out most of the time by companies screens. L’ex Marchiani prefect was an expert of such bargainings during the Iran-Iraq war.

Remain that l’affaire Roland missiles in Iraq seems to be assembled of all parts by the services of information of l’armée American so " d’assouplir " France. The Poles announce to have destroyed the litigious missiles. One will thus know never s’il formed part of the stock discovered in April with l’aéroport of Baghdad. And this rapid destruction lets guess the answer. It had been so much easier to produce them like proof.

As for the rapids excuses of Poland they sound false. Poland has very to gain to abound in the direction of the United States, which, in addition to the military protection of l’OTAN, contributes without counting with the economic raising country.

That being written, it is exact that France was l’un large suppliers d’armes of l’Irak. But just like the United States when he wanted that this country, qu’alors he protected, puts at knees l’Iran principal enemy.

The system of Roland missile

The system of air missile of defense Roland is produced by the Euromissile firm which is based in Fontenay-Aux-Roses in France. Euromissile is a consortium rested by the firm Aerospatiale-Matra de France and firm aerospatiale Daimler-Chrysler based in Germany, which is now a subsidiary company of company EADS. The activities of the Matra firm concerning the systems of missile were amalgamated with Matra BAE Dynamics and the firm Aliena Marcony System to form company MBDA.

The Roland system entered in service within l’armée French in 1977, and also within ten other countries, of which including France and l’Allemagne. The systems French d’armes are assembled on the frame of the tank principal AMX-30, while for l’Allemagne those assembled on the frame of the fighting vehicle ḏinfantery Marder. More than 650 systems were produced. The Roland system is effective against the air threats circulating at low altitude. It is available in autonomous system d’arme, on a vehicle, or in a fixed shelter like a closed cabin assembled on a truck chassis, identical to the system Roland Carol.

The Roland Carol is in production since 1995 and 20 systems were delivered to l’armée French and eleven with l’armée of German ground. Within the framework of European contract OCCAR, L’Agence of Defense and the French DGA, one establishes a program allowing the levelling of the Roland missile. This modernization includes/understands a new system of control and operation BBKS and ḻadaptation of the infra-red system of vision sword of the Sagem firm to continuation of targets with multiple channels. the first unit of shooting was completed in 1999 and the first tests of shooting started in September 1999. This new Roland levelled will be called Roland M3S. The second prototype in the configuration of cabin closed gone up on truck chassis named Carol was completed in October 1999. The system is able to fire the missiles Roland 2 and Roland 3 and also the Roland VT1.Le Roland 2 and 3 lays out d’un system with visual guidance with a warhead with hollow-charge.

The Roland 3 has longest range, 8 km, while the Roland 2 n’a qu’une carried 6,3 km. He has also a larger warhead, 9,2 kg, l’ogive of the Roland makes only 6,5 kg. Roland VT1 is manufactured by the Euromissile firm under licence of the firm Thales (formerly Thomson-CSF), which developed the missile for the system of shooting Crotale. The VT1 Na a speed of 1.250 m/s and has a range of 11 km. The CLOSED system, visual system of detection uses electro-optical radars and sensors.

The missile is armed d’un detonator with fragmentation with 13kg. Ten missiles are carried, two in the system of launching and eight in reserve. Recharging is possible in 6 seconds. Roland M3D lays out d’un system monitoring double, as well as detectors of radar 3 and infra-red sensors which function in parallel. The d’objectif system d’acquisition includes/understands a radar, infra-reds and cameras of vision. The system lays out d’un radar of monitoring multi-bands 3d. The d’objectif radar d’acquisition lays out d’une carried of 25 km for an altitude of 9 km. The radar of continuation has a range of 20 km.

The new system of electro-optical sight developed by Sagem Sword for the Roland 3, will be installed for the modernization of the Roland 2 of l’armée French and German. This aiming includes/understands two thermal cameras with infra-red detection, a laser rangefinder. the range is of 20 km for the planes and 10 km for the helicopters. The levelling of the system of command and control of the Roland includes/understands three multifunction screens of color, a new computer of guidance, a computer of coordination and ḏintercommunication.

The system is capable of s’intégrer to the ground-to-air order C3l which can s’interconnecter with systems Patriot, Hawck and AWACS. The Roland Carol is installed in an aluminium cabin which weighs 8.300 kg. The system is transportable by air on Hercules C-130 or Transal C-160 and can be installed on a large variety of freight vehicles. The systems d’armes of l’armée French are towed by trucks ACMAT 6 x6. The German systems are assembled on truck MAN 6 X 6

sorry but this kind of gratuitous accusations toward France drive me crazy, and I thought this was clear in everymind

[Pégase]

the spokesman of the Polish ministry of the Defence which had announced wrongly that French missiles manufactured this year had been discovered in Iraq, resigned

the Polish defence minister Jerzy Szmajdzinski has accepted the resignation of colonel Eugeniusz Mleczak :|


:roll: :roll: :roll:

[James]

Does Haiti have massive stockpiles of WMD?

[Argyll]

Does Haiti have massive stockpiles of WMD?


Voodoo you believe? ;)