Dragunov Vs M14

[Galil]

What would you choose for sniper works up to 1000 meters?

Dragunov
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/svd_new.jpg


or

M21

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/m21.jpg

[TacoDelRio]

M14/M21.

-Magazine capacity of more-than-ten rounds helps when there are bad people nearer to you.
-More work has been put into these, thanks to our 2nd Amendment. There's more out there on how to make them more accurate.
-Accessories and parts are improved over issue "crap".

Not to mention selection of match ammo for .308's. Which is big.

I dunno about out to 1,000m, but if I had to choose either, there ya go.

[Freibier]

The pencil thin barrel of the Dragunov heats up quickly and groups start to open up early, also the barrel isn't free floating. I'd rather take the M14.
At 1000m you can't hit reliably with those rifles imho ...

[Luno]

The Dragunov is made to extend effective range of fire of every infantry squad up to 600 meters I don’t know about the M14 have never tried it or seen it in real life but on 1 000m i would rather have a L96 AW the same rifle as i am holding on h my avatar p-)

[ABNINF]

The Dragonov is a definately lagging behind the M14/21. I've fired them, it has a long stroke gas piston that produces a longer-slower recoil. Also the magazine can be a little picky sometimes. It's only accurate out to about 600m like Luno said. After that the accuracy gets really poor, with less than a 20% chance that you'll hit a man-sized target at 1000m. It's also VERY long. This makes it hard to manuever in tight areas where movement can be limited, like heavy brush. It also makes it hard to take up an unsupported firing position, as the hand grip is a good reach away. I personally don't think that it's a very good weapon, but for >500m it'll do the job. The M14/21 on the other hand is a fantastic weapon system. Reliable, accurate to 1000m, and user friendly. Easy to use and maintain, and combat proven throughout the last 40 years. I've shot both, and would pick the M14/21 any day of the week over the Dragonov. Just MHO.

[Bulabash]

yeah semi autos not totally suited to long range sniping. A decent semi auto i think is the HK PSG1 and derivatives, dragunov and M14 good for designated marksmen style till 600 m and/or Urban where ranges are usually shorter. As mentioned above, Accuracy International would be my choice and the 7,62 has a hard time at 1000m (except with well made reloads but that is another question) as the AW is the one ive used in the past. But if I had to choose between M14 and Dragunov i would go for M14 mainly because of Ammo quality in issued stuff.

[Chris]

I never got hold of one of these, but 1000m is probably too much.

During my army time i fired the SSG69 up to 600-800 m, and with a little practice it was ok, but I doubt that this rifle would have been useful for 1000 meters.

If I would have to take one, then probably the M21. More equipment, more capacity.

Does one of these two have an adjustable trigger?

[TacoDelRio]

You can adjust the trigger to a degree on the M14. AK's, M1 Garands, and M14's all have "Garand-type" trigger groups, and are a different breed of triggers to adjust.

[Luno]

I did shot on a man-sized target at 800m (-+) with a G3 with a Hensoldt 4x24 scope and yes I know its not a sniper rifle it’s a sharpshooter rifle p-) but I did fire two mag (2X20) and I did hit the target with 4 bullet and i am not a bad shooter . People mostly don’t understand how far away a man-sized target is on 1000m even if you use a 8X scope

[ABNINF]

The M14/21 is very capable of hitting at 1000m. The M1A is a regular winner at the Camp Perry 1000 yard service rifle competitions.

[oldsoak]

I think the comparison is a little unfair - the Dragunov is designed for use with Russian doctrine and tactics, a role which it performs very well. This is different from the US role. The Russians emphasis is on rapid accurate shooting to around 600m and may have been based on their appraisal of their sniper records in WWII - the vast majority of kills being within that range. also IIRC, they operate more like marksman attached to a platoon rather than western sniper teams. Any info from our Russian posters would be greatly appreciated.

[Roaming East]

M1A is nothing more than an accurarized M14 which was a standard battle rifle. The comparisons between the rifles is valid because both weapons fulfill the same role.

That said i'd use the M1A cause i own one and am quite familiar with its operation and capabilities.

[sergey31]

This would be my choice......
http://www.*************/action/chechnya/svdgrozny-72_sm.jpg
And no, not because it's Russian. Some of you really need to read up on SVD before typing.
Start here http://club.guns.ru/eng/dragunov.html
With the right ammo SVD is not any less accurate then any M14 versions. BTW 7.62x54R can go as high as 202gr, 7.62x51mm would top out at 180gr or so.

[Jippo]

Start here http://club.guns.ru/eng/dragunov.html

Probable killing range: 3,800 m (4,158 yards)

:)


-jippo

[JoaMei]

All Semiatomatics have the first round Problem, it goes somewhere else than follow ups. At ranges like 500m and more a Bolt action is the better choice.

[Chin]

I'm a member of the Naval Reserve Rifle Team and shoot the 14 at 600 and 1000 yds on a regular basis with the M118 LR ammo. With the McMillan fiberglass stock and an Obermeyer 5 groove barrel, it'll easily stay in the 20 inch 10 ring at 1000 as long as you can stay on top of the wind. Both civilian and military gunsmiths have done wonders accurizing the 14 and a lot of them will easily group inside 1 minute of angle.

[Uninen]

The Dragonov is a definately lagging behind the M14/21. I've fired them, it has a long stroke gas piston that produces a longer-slower recoil.
That is totally incorrect. It has short stroke gas system.. "Romaks" and "Zastava M76's" that some idiots sometimes call as "Dragunovs" do however have long stroke AK-like system, but those really are not "Dragunovs".

HERE (http://www.club.guns.ru/images/svds-s.jpg) is a picture of disassembled SVDS so you can confirm this.

[ABNINF]

That is totally incorrect. It has short stroke gas system.. "Romaks" and "Zastava M76's" that some idiots sometimes call as "Dragunovs" do however have long stroke AK-like system, but those really are not "Dragunovs".

You're right. I mispoke, I was talking about the long gas piston, reminiscent of the SKS, not necesarily the length of the stroke. In retrospect I think it is more due to the length of travel of the bolt in order to chamber the the 7.62x54R cartridge than anything. I just think that the M14/21 is a better weapon system.

[oldsoak]

M1A is nothing more than an accurarized M14 which was a standard battle rifle. The comparisons between the rifles is valid because both weapons fulfill the same role.

That said i'd use the M1A cause i own one and am quite familiar with its operation and capabilities.

Hmm, not convinced and heres why - the Russians want a 600m rifle, the US wants a 1000m one . One is obviously going to out-perform the other at range based on their acceptance criteria which is rather different. The auccurising bit that goes into an M14 is not a 5 minute job. IIRC, the most accurate rifles from a bunch get selected and then its over to some skilled armourers to tweak in various ways to produce a rather fine product. The Dragunov was purpose designed for the Russian approach to sniping and not a modified battle rifle. Its a bit more "off the shelf" . It also uses a 4 power scope as opposed to a 6 power or greater on most western sniper rifles which many would use to hit someone at 1000m. The Russians have used Moisin-Nagant bolt actions in WWII and well understood its ability to shoot at ranges of 800m or more, but they found that most kills happened closer in when fighting in Europe where snipers wanted a quick second shot ability at targets moving rapidly from cover to cover. Both rifles are deadly in the right hands. Its just that if the enemy is switched on and has good camouflage and concealment drills, you may not get to use the 1000m ability of an M14 that often if at all.

[cavtroop4]

I'd choose an M21 since I had an M14 and shot targets up to 800m using half of the E type target. Plus I have some bias of it since I carried and used it for over a year.

[ABNINF]

My biggest problem isn't with the range/accuracy of the SVD. It has more to do with the design, i.e. over all length, dimensions, etc. The weapon will perform sufficently out to 600m. I'm not a big guy, at 5'10, 175 pounds, it's awkward to manuever the Dragonov around, since it is over 4ft long. Granted, it is fairly well balanced for it's length, it does still have a tendency to be front end heavy.

[oldsoak]

I'd choose an M21 since I had an M14 and shot targets up to 800m using half of the E type target. Plus I have some bias of it since I carried and used it for over a year.

I understand that the m21 is a m14 match rifle with a fibreglass stock - any other modifications ?

[HoboWithAK]

Due to the aftermarket parts availability and the wide range of knowledge already out there on working the M14 into better groups at longer ranges, i'll go with the M14.

[Zvucni Efekti]

http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-rifles-m21.shtml

[akd]

I think the comparison is a little unfair - the Dragunov is designed for use with Russian doctrine and tactics, a role which it performs very well. This is different from the US role. The Russians emphasis is on rapid accurate shooting to around 600m and may have been based on their appraisal of their sniper records in WWII - the vast majority of kills being within that range. also IIRC, they operate more like marksman attached to a platoon rather than western sniper teams. Any info from our Russian posters would be greatly appreciated.

U.S. snipers do not use the M14/M21 system. Designated marksmen (though unofficial) do, and in much the same way as you describe Russian practice. U.S. snipers use the M40, M24 and M107 systems.

[Laworkerbee]

M14/M21.

-Magazine capacity of more-than-ten rounds helps when there are bad people nearer to you.
-More work has been put into these, thanks to our 2nd Amendment. There's more out there on how to make them more accurate.
-Accessories and parts are improved over issue "crap".

Not to mention selection of match ammo for .308's. Which is big.

I dunno about out to 1,000m, but if I had to choose either, there ya go.

X2 hands friggen down.

[RomanS]

M14 for me

yeah i know... its weird for me to say this

but its very accurate, reliable, and delivers a nice punch

[Laworkerbee]

M14 for me

yeah i know... its weird for me to say this

but its very accurate, reliable, and delivers a nice punch

:cantbeli: Holy Moly! I never would have thought!

[SEAHAWK]

I know that SVD is a good sniper rifle but I have seen that's scope and I think it's not enough to shoot a target which is 1km away. I think that scope is about 8-10x. Even my portable hand binocular is 10X.:D And I can say I can't clearly see a person from that distance, clearly. I'm sure, if SVD had a 20X scope it would be greater rifle even at 1000m.:)

[RomanS]

You would be surprised, a lot of SF members in Russia I know are not too happy with SVD

[SEAHAWK]

You would be surprised, a lot of SF members in Russia I know are not too happy with SVD

Soo, am I right ? Does Dragonov have a 10X zoom scope ? I want you to leanr it from you cause I don't know the real capability of that scope.

I'm not an experinced person on using weapons because of my age and statement (an high-school student :D) but an experienced mate in this forum (Clearday-TRForce ) says that SVD was a reliable weapon. But he didn't mentioned about shooting at 1000m.:) So I had better to let him to talk about this.:)

[RomanS]

Soo, am I right ? Does Dragonov have a 10X zoom scope ? I want you to leanr it from you cause I don't know the real capability of that scope.

I'm not an experinced person on using weapons because of my age and statement (an high-school student :D) but an experienced mate in this forum (Clearday-TRForce ) says that SVD was a reliable weapon. But he didn't mentioned about shooting at 1000m.:) So I had better to let him to talk about this.:)

Russian military uses regular PSO. There are no high power scopes in Russian military for issue. Special forces buy their own.

10x is probably a comercial scope, not military

[SEAHAWK]

Russian military uses regular PSO. There are no high power scopes in Russian military for issue. Special forces buy their own.

10x is probably a comercial scope, not military

Hmmm, I have seen a Turkish Special Forces member with a Dragonov which has Turkish (ASELSAN) made thermal imager. It must be very heavy but effective, also.

[Chris]

I used the ssg69 with a 6x scope....
...and it sucks when the targets are more than 700m away, and especially when it gets dark. The standart scope also uses the old german style T crosshair..


Back to the svd: In the picture posted before, is a version with black handguards shown. Are this improved types like ak47 and ak74 basing on the same systems?

[oldsoak]

U.S. snipers do not use the M14/M21 system. Designated marksmen (though unofficial) do, and in much the same way as you describe Russian practice. U.S. snipers use the M40, M24 and M107 systems.

OK - whats the set up ? Are these guys at squad or platoon level ?

[Abolith]

Probable killing range: 3,800 m (4,158 yards)

:)


-jippo


Ya I saw that and laughed that would be 2.3625 Miles or 3.801 kilometers somehow I am not buying those ranges...

[Limeyfellow]

Even most designated marksman in US forces don't use the M14 since most are thrashed and worn out. They tend to use match grade ammo in an m4 or m16, such as the M16A2E3 and are deployed at the squad level for ranges up to 500 metres.

Those M14s that are in use are pretty much being modified from scratch at Quantico to form the dmr. They have the fancy fiberglass stocks, the match barrel, modified to use a variety of scopes and alsorts on them. I only know of the Marines using it though in small numbers.

Of course if you want to compare an M14 to an SVD you really need to compare them to the old 50s and 60s M14 before they altered everything with match parts. After all the SVD is not exactly cutting edge Russian marksman's rifle anymore.

[Roaming East]

would take a divine act to get a round of that caliber to actually hit a target at that range. And if a dragunov tags you at 3800 meters...well your ass was on Gods hit list.

[Abolith]

if a dragunov tags you at 3800 meters...well your ass was on Gods hit list.


rofl rofl rofl

[TacoDelRio]

To the guy who said the Ruskies have embedded snipers in their platoons:
2ND ID SBCT has embedded snipers in platoons, too. Aside from M24 SWS rifles, they use M14/M21 DMR's. This gives a platoon, and sumarilly a company the ability to engage targets out to a longer range than their M4/M16 rifles, just like the Ruskies thought of when they made the Dragunov, which is essentially a Designated Marksman's Rifle (DMR). Simply to extend the range of a rifle platoon, motorised/dismounted, airborne or light, out past their AK's, against point targets.

And it worked for the Ruskies. And it apparently works damn good with us, too.

I gotta stress that I believe there has been ALOT more work put into accurizing the M14 without detracting from its' reliability, thanks to civilians here in firearm-friendly nations. The Dragunov has little work, so far as I've seen.

Still going with an M14.

[jpg]

The U.S. military has it's choice of weapons. They have not found anything better than an M14 in a .308. You can come up with equivalent firearms, but the M14 was a competition grade rifle from the start. My M1 Garand is ridiculously accurate. It fills the role of mid-range sniper rifle just fine. It will run all day and night if necessary. It is a fine firearm.

I remember when Reed-Knight was working on their SR-25. It is OK, but the Navy SEALS went with M14s, because the SR-25 wasn't much better.

[akd]

OK - whats the set up ? Are these guys at squad or platoon level ?

Abridged version of "Precision Shooting in the Global War on Terror," Small Arms Review. Vol. 9, No. 5, February, 2006.

Not All Are Snipers
While all precision shooters are valuable to the tacticial situation, not all are genuine "snipers." This distinguished names is best reserved for thos who have successfully completed formal schooling by their respective services, resulting in the award of the sniper MOS...
For the most part these men are assigned in the role of sniper and armed with top-of-the-line bolt-action Remigton 7.62mm rifles...or semi-auto .50 caliber Barrets.
...
Sharpshooters and Designated Marksmen
Because the demand far outstrips the supply of these "real" snipers, worthy shooters with somewhat lesser degrees of schooling and proficiency are also deserving of membership in the precision riflery fraternity...there is much latitude in what they are called...but SAR finds it convenient to use two broad categories.
We'll call the first category of semi-snipers "Sharpshooters/Designated Marksmen," who are expert shooters given some advanced instruction and then assigned the role as additional duty. They are usually identified by the distinctive scoped 7.62mm rifle with its protruding box magazine they proudly carry.
...
On The M14
SAR: Is the proper nomenclature Designated Marksman Rifle?
Army: There is no nomenclature for a modified M14 as this is not a formal Army program, but rather a unit-specific effort.
SAR: What is the basis of issue; how many per unit and who gets them?
Army: Zero. Some units have received depot surplus M14s to augment their authorized weapons but there is no formalized or standardized basis of issue, nor are all units authorized to have M14s - it is a capability provided for a limited time on a case-by-case basis.
SAR: What is the rationale for fielding these vs. the M24?
Army: All units authorized the M24 have their allocated quantity. Those units in receipt of M14s have not received them in lieu of M24 sniper rifles.
SAR: Whwere are the Designated Marksmen being trained and to what standards?
Army: Designated Marksmen are trained as part of markmanship sustainment training at the individual unit level, according to standards established in Chapter 7 of FM3-22.9, Rifle Marksmanship.
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/9034/dm2il.th.jpg (http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dm2il.jpg)
21st December 2004, Afghanistan. Specialist Jonathan Low, a Designated Marksman for Company C, 2nd Battalion, 27th Infantry Regiment.
Squad Designated Marksman
Not to be confused with those in the previous category [Designated Marksmen/Sharpshooters], Squad Designated Marksmen are members of Army and Marine rifle squads who carry specially modified 5.56mm M16A4 rifles or M4A1 carbines. telescopic sights and bipods are the most obvious indicators of this special status, but the luckiest ones carry weapons with match grade trigger groups and heavy barrels.
They usually get extra training to go along with this high-speed gun gear and are expected to put this to good use in two very important ways. First, the day scopes - usually 4 power ACOGs - enable better identification of threats among friendlies. Then, when the need arises to apply 5.56mm persuasion, the accuracy package plus well-honed shooting skills equals higher likelihood of finishing the job without collateral damage.
http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/2272/101stsdm1rw.th.jpg (http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=101stsdm1rw.jpg)
A Squad Designated Marksman from Company B, 2nd Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division, conducts search and sweep operations in the village of Shakaria, Iraq. January 9, 2006.
...
Stryker Brigade Snipers in Iraq
Troubled by the lack of recognition in news releases and other elements...SAR sent a request through Pentagon channels to the 25th Infantry Division, [then] deployed in Northern Iraq. The response was immediate and enthusiastic. Some excerpts:
-Major Mark Bieger [was] the Battalion Operations Officer for 1st Battalion, 24th Infantry Regiment in the 1st Brigade (Stryker Brigade Combat Team), 25th Infantry Division in Northern Iraq.
"Snipers have been critical to successful operations in fighting the insurgency in Mosul, Iraq. The sniper provides twho critical advantages: precision, long-range direct fires and covert surveillance. In an urban environment, the sniper's unique capabilities cannot be matched with other, lesser-trained soldiers, technology or alternate tactic, technique or procedure. The snipers of this battalion are absolutely necessary and an invaluable piece of the organization."
http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/5448/strykersnipersmall3yw.th.jpg (http://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?image=strykersnipersmall3yw.jpg)
Stryker Company sniper, 24th Infantry Regiment. KIA by enemy sniper in Mosul.
-Captain Chris Bachl [was] a Stryker Infantry Company Commander of A Company, 1st Battalion, 5th Infantry Regiment deployed in Northern Iraq.
On sniper effectiveness in Iraq: "The seven man sniper squad (2 x 3-man sniper teams plus 1 Squad Leader) are used in a full array of operations in support of company and battalion targeting operations. Common operational uses include covert stay behind ambushes, cache/terrain of interest observation, counter-IED, Iraqi Army patrol overwatch, and counter-mortar/counter-rocket and COP/Hard site security. They truly operate over a full spectrum of operations to include both lethal and non-lethal roles. One critical role they play involves the gathering of information and intel as they conduct observation and surveillance. My company snipers were very adept at pinpointing enemy actions at a distance using their advanced optics. Their spot reports translated into critical real-time information (sensor to shooter link) that platoon's were able to act on instantly using their digital capabilities."
One example: "While providing observation and coutenr-reconaissance in support of a platoon maneuvering forward from a COP, the sniper team spotted 'suspicious activity.' After developing the situation and further observation, they observed military-aged males gathering at a house at a distance of 600 meters from the combat outpost. The sniper team was able to then vector the maneuver platoon to the house while the spotter and sniper continued to maintain eyes on the situation. Once the platoon was in sight, they gathering began to disperse, some picked up RPGs and AK-47s and started firing at the approaching platoon. The sniper team was able to islolate them with precision fires allowing the platoon to maneuver closer to the building."
-Captain Kevin Saatkamp [was] an Infantry Stryker company commander in the 3rd Battalion, 21st Infantry Regiment deployed to Northern Iraq.
"Snipers fulfill a critical role in the the urban insurgency. The benefits of the organic company sniper, unique to the Stryker Brigade, ad a tremendous precision fire asset to those who need it most: the infantryman on the ground. Consisting of a 3-man element, the sniper team provides not only the ability to 'reach out and touch someone,' but also the ability to observe targets covertly without a large signature. The largest challenge to the sniper in Mosul is the difficult and varied terrain. One mission the team may be placed in a 3-story building, the next in an open field. Leaving behind a sniper team in an area that just received contact has proved especially effective to US forces. Although not always employed, the sniper can provide an insight into the neighborhood that a normal dismounted patrol can't. In short, the company sniper team is a tremendous combat multiplier to the Stryker company and battalions."
Future Snipering
Army snipers - and maybe their Marine brothers - can look forward to receiving a fast-shooting 7.62mm sniper rifle in the next year or so...the XM110 Semi-Automatic Sniper System, essentially a beefed-up and tuned-up M16 along the lines of the Navy SEAL's Mk. 11 Mod 0 (Knight's SR-25).
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1949/sass18hj.th.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sass18hj.jpg)
Also, Ronnie Barret hasn't rested on his M107 .50 caliber laurels. Joint Services Small Arms Program is well along with developmental work and safety testing of his 25mm high-velocity version called the XM109 Anti-Material Payload Rifle. Insiders report this awesome weapon has already seen "operational evaluation" overseas.
(edit: added some pics to go along with abridged article.) [/QB][/QUOTE]

[Durandal]

With the right ammo SVD is not any less accurate then any M14 versions. BTW 7.62x54R can go as high as 202gr, 7.62x51mm would top out at 180gr or so.

Actually, Barnes, Hornady, Nosler, Sierra, Speer, and Swift provide .308 (7.62x51) ranging from 100gr to 240gr.

Come on now sergey. You get all "I am the man" and then you stick your foot in your mouth.

I expect better.

[GazB]

Probable killing range: 3,800 m (4,158 yards)

Probable killing range is the distance to which the projectile is still rated as lethal. The average 30 cal rifle bullet has a terminal velocity in air of about 330fps. In other words if you dropped a 30 cal bullet from an aircraft at 20km up it will be travelling at about 330fps when it hits the ground.


All Semiatomatics have the first round Problem, it goes somewhere else than follow ups. At ranges like 500m and more a Bolt action is the better choice.

So bolt action rifles don't suffer from a cold bore on the first shot? How?
(I do agree that for very long range accuracy a bolt action is generally more accurate, but is more accurate always better?)


I know that SVD is a good sniper rifle but I have seen that's scope and I think it's not enough to shoot a target which is 1km away. I think that scope is about 8-10x. Even my portable hand binocular is 10X. And I can say I can't clearly see a person from that distance, clearly. I'm sure, if SVD had a 20X scope it would be greater rifle even at 1000m.

They come with a x4 scope as standard. Currently they are being offered with a 3-9 variable power scope, which should make longer range shots easier.


You would be surprised, a lot of SF members in Russia I know are not too happy with SVD

Not too happy for what? It isn't a sniper rifle so if they don't like it for not being a sniper rifle then you can harldy blame the rifle for that...


Back to the svd: In the picture posted before, is a version with black handguards shown. Are this improved types like ak47 and ak74 basing on the same systems?

There are now a few models of SVD to choose from. A bullpup called SVU. A shortened model with a folding stock but heavier barrel and synthetic furnature called SVDS. They also have the SVDK which fires the longer range 9.3 x 63mm round.

Perhaps a better comparison would be between the two weapons would be the SVDK with the variable power scope (Giperon I think it is called)... it still has the reticule lit for low light use at dawn and dusk or at targets in the shade or dark targets. It still has the active IR detector plate as well for revealing active IR sources. In addition to the optical rangefinder.

The purpose of the new ammo is because in the 800m-1200m range most normal 30 cal ammo enters a transonic phase where accuracy deteriorates. The 9.3mm round performs a similar role to the western 338 laupa magnum rounds in filling that gap between 30 cal and 50 cal.


Ya I saw that and laughed that would be 2.3625 Miles or 3.801 kilometers somehow I am not buying those ranges...

The range is determined by calculating the required energy to get a kill and then determining the range at which the bullet still retains that energy level. It is not a measure of accuracy. ie at 3.8km the 7.62 x 54mm round from an SVD retains the energy to kill a human.


The Dragunov has little work, so far as I've seen.


Has little work? It is a custom designed rifle!!! The M14 is an infantry battle rifle.


Actually, Barnes, Hornady, Nosler, Sierra, Speer, and Swift provide .308 (7.62x51) ranging from 100gr to 240gr.


When first issued the 7.62 x 54mmR round had a 220 grain round nose bullet.

The fact that several western bullet makers produce bullets in various weights doesn't mean they shoot well. The larger case capacity of the Russian round means you can get big bullets and more powder at the same time.

[Death.]

[QUOTE=GazB]Probable killing range is the distance to which the projectile is still rated as lethal. The average 30 cal rifle bullet has a terminal velocity in air of about 330fps. In other words if you dropped a 30 cal bullet from an aircraft at 20km up it will be travelling at about 330fps when it hits the ground.

Well for one, that's not a good example, because if you dropped a bullet from an airplane, the force of gravity would make it go faster so when it hit the ground it would have been going alot faster than the speed at which it was dropped..

[GazB]

No it wouldn't. If you dropped anything, from a coin to a 30 cal bullet to a fluffy pillow to a hot air balloon from 20km above the surface of the moon all of these objects would hit the surface at the same speed. All will be subject to the moons gravity and will accelerate at the same rate so all should hit the surface at the same time at the same speed. On earth we have something called an atmosphere. Objects don't fall freely they are subject to another force other than gravity called drag or air friction. For different objects drag or friction is different. If you think about it putting a parachute on before you jump out of a plane is silly because you are just adding to the mass of what is falling. With the parachute on your back in the pack the average human will fall at about 200 miles per hour. It doesn't matter what height you fall at or what speed you started at within reason (if you were thrown out of a spaceship at mach 10 then you would be ripped to shreds of course). Once you get to about 200 miles per hour then that is the speed you keep falling at because the force of gravity pulling you down has been overcome by the air resistance trying to slow you down. Because of the shape of a human if you fall in a star shape like sky divers do then you will reduce speed. If you turn head or feet first you will go a little faster, but even from 30km up you will never go much faster than your terminal velocity limit.

By pulling that rip cord and deploying your parachute you greatly increase your drag without increasing mass. By hugely reducing you density you greatly reduce your terminal velocity from 200mph or so to maybe 15 feet per second or so that allows a relatively safe landing.

Firing a bullet straight up into the air is a good example. When it goes up there is a bang from the muzzle blast of supersonic gas and a crack as the bullet travels up at supersonic speed, but when the bullet comes back down there is no crack... the bullet does not accelerate back down and hit the ground at the same speed it left the muzzle. On the moon without air resistance both ways the bullet would go much higher and would come back down at a similar speed it went up at. On Earth it is being slowed by air resistance all the way up and all the way back down too. As I said for a 30 cal round it would hit the ground at about 330fps. As it fell once it got to the speed of about 330fps it would stop accelerating and just continue to fall at that speed till it hit th ground.
Different calibres and bullet weights can change this speed but not by a huge amount.

BTW
http://club.guns.ru/eng/convention.html

Includes some info on that 9.3 x 64mm round I mentioned and the SVDK rifle to fire it. It is a new round intended to extend the range of sniping from 600-800m out to 1,000m or so.

[speckfire]

I'm confused here .. Are we comparing an M-14 out of the box vs an SVD out of the box?? or after spending $2000 on the M-14 we're comparing it to an SVD?

[jtv3062]

Actually, Barnes, Hornady, Nosler, Sierra, Speer, and Swift provide .308 (7.62x51) ranging from 100gr to 240gr.

Come on now sergey. You get all "I am the man" and then you stick your foot in your mouth.

I expect better.
can you show me a 308 win/7.62x51 round loaded with a 240 grn bullet. sierra edition V shows nothing over 200 grns with a 308 win/7.62x51, nothing over 220 with a 30-06. now a 300 winchester can be had in a 240 grns. all of these cartridges uses the .308 dia bullets

[Nizark]

Probable killing range: 3,800 m (4,158 yards)

:)


-jippo


4158 yards? so over 12,000 ft?

[BlackFlag]

actually, here in the US i can buy 203gr bullets for my Mosin.

but in all honesty...an M1A in my opinion is superior to a SVD.

Not to say that an SVD isnt a lethal piece of steel.

[sergey31]

It's also VERY long. This makes it hard to manuever in tight areas where movement can be limited, like heavy brush

And M14/21 is havier then SVD.


but its very accurate, reliable, and delivers a nice punch

So does the SVD, 7.62x54R does deliver same punch and more.
http://www.snipersparadise.com/equipment/RussiasSniperLoad.htm
"7.62x54R "Extra" Match was used to win the International Military Games in 1995 and the World Championship in 1996."
http://www.wolfammo.com/bs_riffle_762x54rextramatch.htm

I know that SVD is a good sniper rifle but I have seen that's scope and I think it's not enough to shoot a target which is 1km away. I think that scope is about 8-10x. Even my portable hand binocular is 10X. And I can say I can't clearly see a person from that distance, clearly. I'm sure, if SVD had a 20X scope it would be greater rifle even at 1000m
And during WW2 Soviet snipers had recorder kills at 1,800 meters with 3.5 power PU scope. During Afghan war Soviet snipers also scored 1,200+ meter kills with SVD.

You would be surprised, a lot of SF members in Russia I know are not too happy with SVD
If there is any truth to that then I would not be surprised, there are people in every field who are not happy with something. You can't please every single person.
I've read that some Russian snipers still prefer SVD over SV-98.

After all the SVD is not exactly cutting edge Russian marksman's rifle anymore.
Wrong, SVD-S.... Improved SVD over the original, with better/shorter barrel.
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn18-e.htm
Less then 2MOA at 600 meters, that good enough for anyone.
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/svds.jpg

Actually, Barnes, Hornady, Nosler, Sierra, Speer, and Swift provide .308 (7.62x51) ranging from 100gr to 240gr.
None of it is military and after 500yd or so that 220gr will drop like a rock due to smaller case (powder charge) capacity (There is military 200gr for 54R).
As mention before 7.62x54R has bigger casing and bigger bullet .311 compared to .308 of 7.62x51mm.
7.62x54R if more flexible and capable cartridge it does provide room for more potential especially if you reload.

[TacoDelRio]

Are we talking about competition, or killing people? If it's a weapon, you kill people with it, right?

As long as someone put their bullet into the bad guy's vital areas, and that bad guy goes down in a short period of time, it's done its' job, right?

I was big into guns until I got into the Army. I was an expert before, but after, you just use it as a tool to kill people. The bad guy won't know if the bullet that blew the top of his skull off was 168 grains, or 175 grains. As long as it gets the job done, and the bad guy meets his Gods, then it's all good, right?

I'd still go with an M14. Plus, I don't see cost as being a factor in here. If you are given a choice as a soldier, chances are it's an issue rifle, or a battlefield pickup, not somehting you went to the bazaar and had Akhmed accurize for $5,000 bucks.

[ABNINF]

And M14/21 is havier then SVD.

Yes, but it is much more awkward to carry(traditional SVD) than the M14. While heavier, it's less awkward to carry and shoot.

[GazB]

The SVDS is listed commercially as having the option of a 15 round mag as well in "Russia's Arms 2004". Though I haven't seen the larger mag.


4158 yards? so over 12,000 ft?

It is a figure normally released with MGs, but for harrassing fire purposes I think it is OK to include the range at which it will still do you damage if it hits you.

[TacoDelRio]

The SVDS is listed commercially as having the option of a 15 round mag as well in "Russia's Arms 2004". Though I haven't seen the larger mag.



It is a figure normally released with MGs, but for harrassing fire purposes I think it is OK to include the range at which it will still do you damage if it hits you.

Not to sound like an ass, but at that range I doubt sniper fire on an area target (coming from a 10rd magazine) would have the effect of say, a PKM or other GPMG/emplaced weapon putting lead down there from a tripod.

Then again I've not yet been shot at by a 7.62x54R, just it's American cousin. I doubt there's a ton of difference.

[GazB]

Yes, but it is much more awkward to carry(traditional SVD) than the M14. While heavier, it's less awkward to carry and shoot.

Much more awkward? How long is an M14?
If the length is such a problem the current model SVDS has a folding stock.

[GazB]

Not to sound like an ass, but at that range I doubt sniper fire on an area target (coming from a 10rd magazine) would have the effect of say, a PKM or other GPMG/emplaced weapon putting lead down there from a tripod.


It is not a figure to tell you which targets you can aim at with a reasonable chance of getting. It is a figure to tell you that if you miss the target, this is the distance to where you can kill your average adult human if you are unlucky to hit in a vital spot obviously. It is for firing ranges and safety zones. Even with MGs you wouldn't see the target at 3.8km let alone be firing at it unless it was a Ship or something.

Because of projectile weight the range for Kord is given as 2,000m sighted, 6,000m impact range. Because of the bullet weight it is lethal at any range the bullet can hit you from. Normal ballistic range for this 12.7 x 108mm round is 6km.

[TacoDelRio]

I understand that all that means it still is supposed to have enough energy left to kill a person if it lands in a vital area, but in a military-pick-your-weapon-you-have-a-choice-for-once, I don't see it working. Rather a waste of ammo, unless you're in an inner-city community, with all those "stray-bullets". ;)

[GazB]

I understand that all that means it still is supposed to have enough energy left to kill a person if it lands in a vital area, but in a military-pick-your-weapon-you-have-a-choice-for-once, I don't see it working.

It is basically an unimportant statistic. The figure for the 7.62 x 51 ammo would be very similar as long as it uses boat tail rounds. The first 7.62 x 54mmR rounds used flat based bullets with a round nose and were black powder propellent rounds. (It entered service in 1891 afterall). The round nose bullets are good for transfer of energy to the target but also transfer energy to the air too quickly too. Max range was about 1.5-2km... that is max ballistic range... fire them at 45 degrees and they'd hit the ground at 1.5-2kms. The spire point, the smokeless powder, a lighter bullet in the 150-180 grain range and of course a boat tail rear have doubled its flight range.

[martinexsquaddie]

you can use map predicited fire with a gppmg to annoy someone out to 4k and 50 rounds burst of 7.62 dropping out of the sky will annoy.
case a few years ago where a kids leg was broken by a .357 magnum round at 4 miles!
the lsw a2 is now being used as it was orginaly designed as a DMR its lethal out to 800metres no messing with diffrent ammuntition or training remember as a bullpup its got an unfeasably long barrel with a bipod so the bullet behaviour going to be improved

[ABNINF]

Much more awkward? How long is an M14?
If the length is such a problem the current model SVDS has a folding stock.

The SVD is 50" long, 4 ft, 2", the M14 is 44 inches long. It's not just the over all length (only 6 inches difference). The handguard on the SVD is a longer reach than the M14 making it more awkward to shoot in an unsupported position (for people with short arms like me), due to the length of the reciever and magazine placement. IMO the M14/21 is much more user friendly than the SVD, due to the action, which has a shorter stroke, the general ergonomics of the weapon, and it is inheirently more accurate.

[oldsoak]

I'm sceptical at the ability to consistently target a soldier at 1800m with a 3.5 scope using either 7.62x53 Russian or 7.62 Nato. Can you be hit at that range - yes - but you must have been nailed to the spot and were one unlucky b*gger.
1200m ? Better chances, but still effing difficult.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Yeah, and my Pop's bigger 'n your Pop! Come on guys, you'll never resolve this one, yet another pissing contest.

Get a real sniper rifle ... ... ...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/HighlandSniper58/AI-AWM.jpg

[sergey31]

Yeah, and my Pop's bigger 'n your Pop! Come on guys, you'll never resolve this one, yet another pissing contest.

Get a real sniper rifle ... ... ...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/HighlandSniper58/AI-AWM.jpg
If you say so...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/sergey25/Stuff45/mn91b.jpg

[ekranoplan]

I agree, for a 1000m get your self a sniper rifle. Why not Parker Hale M85:

http://www.snipercentral.com/images/ph85a.jpg

Better than AI, plus if you actually own one, you da man!! woot

[nagant_m44]

If you say so...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/sergey25/Stuff45/mn91b.jpg

Is that wolf match? If it his, how good is it? im thinking of getting it instead of my usual Sellier and Bellot match rounds.

[Luno]

Yeah, and my Pop's bigger 'n your Pop! Come on guys, you'll never resolve this one, yet another pissing contest.

Get a real sniper rifle ... ... ...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/HighlandSniper58/AI-AWM.jpg
Thats a real rifle p-)
Luno with L96A1 AW
http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/2336/dscn09528uh.jpg

[TacoDelRio]

I thought we were talking about what weapon someone would choose to rely on in combat?

If you want range and power, f*ck all the ballistics talk, do it the simple way, the real man way:
http://www.olive-drab.com/images/id_atomic_annie_test.gif
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Weapons/Mk48.jpg
The 280mm nuclear round has better ballistics at 847129471085701357013957013570137501835781357.21 meters than does either the .308 or the 7.62x54mm round. Suck on that. Plus it can penetrate fibreglass and fruitcake.

Sergey, you know I love you so much, brother, but c'mon. Mosin Nagant with PO 4x sight.... :)

At least upgrade to something with a heavy barrel and a sling. :)

[DeltaWhisky58]

I agree, for a 1000m get your self a sniper rifle. Why not Parker Hale M85:

http://www.snipercentral.com/images/ph85a.jpg

Better than AI, plus if you actually own one, you da man!! woot

I've fired the M85 - not a bad rifle when fitted with a good scope/mounts, but IMO not in the same league as the L96A1/L115A1 which is why it was not adopted by the British Armed Forces, although I believe it did pass the acceptance tests. Certainly a more viable alternative in terms of cost. Haven't seen an M85 for sale in a long while, but in the days when they could be had new, they were quite reasonable. Back in the early 90s, there were some silly bargains to be had with these weapons in the UK.

[sergey31]

Is that wolf match? If it his, how good is it? im thinking of getting it instead of my usual Sellier and Bellot match rounds.

It's Winchester "Metric" ammo.... Around $12a box of 20. Not a bad ammo and will give you 1" MOA at 100 yd (of course with a good rifle)..... I have several boxes of Norma, I can't wait to shoot that.

Ryan....That rifle is more capable then I am and I'm not that bad of a shot.
I did install custom adjustable trigger on it, it breaks at about 1 1/2 lb right now. :)

And who-ever gave me a negative rep point for this tread without saying anything, Thank you. Seriously you have made my day, my life is better as a result....Maybe I'll celebrate tonight LOL.

[Uninen]

If you are given a choice as a soldier, chances are it's an issue rifle, or a battlefield pickup, not somehting you went to the bazaar and had Akhmed accurize for $5,000 bucks.
Vietnam anyone? ;) US armed forces didnt have any real sniper weapons nor schools at the time and GI's brought their own rifles with which to snipe, at first anyways?

[ekranoplan]

I've fired the M85 - not a bad rifle when fitted with a good scope/mounts, but IMO not in the same league as the L96A1/L115A1 which is why it was not adopted by the British Armed Forces, although I believe it did pass the acceptance tests. Certainly a more viable alternative in terms of cost. Haven't seen an M85 for sale in a long while, but in the days when they could be had new, they were quite reasonable. Back in the early 90s, there were some silly bargains to be had with these weapons in the UK.

I've read tons on how the acceptance for British sniper rifle went and all authors agree there was large amount of contraversy involved. The AI L96 rifle used even had some bolt/feeder problems. Some authors go further calling the whole thing 'political' decision. Later L96 problems were solved with L96A1 (where I stand corrected about saying M85 being better than AI).

Anyway from what you can read on web Parker Hale doesn't make them anymore, and some other company owns the tooling (I think Sabre Defense), claiming it will restart the production.

To cut the rant... I really like that rifle!!!

[Jippo]

I'm sceptical at the ability to consistently target a soldier at 1800m with a 3.5 scope using either 7.62x53 Russian or 7.62 Nato. Can you be hit at that range - yes - but you must have been nailed to the spot and were one unlucky b*gger.
1200m ? Better chances, but still effing difficult.


Finn army uses the Dragunov and Tkiv-85, both based on the Russian 7.62x54R cartridge. Tkiv-85 is a specialised bolt action sniper rifle based on Mosin Nagant action unlike the Dragunov which is DMR rifle what ever way you look at it(every Russian squad is supposed to have one). Effective range for both is listed to be 800m, and I know for a fact that from these two the Tkiv-85 is the (much) more accurate one:

http://tietokannat.mil.fi/kalustoesittely/media/1083742430_05.7.62_TKIV_85.jpg


-jippo

[oldsoak]

Finn army uses the Dragunov and Tkiv-85, both based on the Russian 7.62x54R cartridge. Tkiv-85 is a specialised bolt action sniper rifle based on Mosin Nagant action unlike the Dragunov which is DMR rifle what ever way you look at it(every Russian squad is supposed to have one). Effective range for both is listed to be 800m, and I know for a fact that from these two the Tkiv-85 is the (much) more accurate one:

http://tietokannat.mil.fi/kalustoesittely/media/1083742430_05.7.62_TKIV_85.jpg


-jippo

My bad - I meant 7.62.x54R . Its certainly a good round - no one complains about its ballistic performance.

[Jippo]

But I agree with you that for that round 1000m is very very far away. :)


-jippo

[DeltaWhisky58]

Later L96 problems were solved with L96A1 (where I stand corrected about saying M85 being better than AI).


L96A1 indicates that it is the standard adopted (i.e. first) model. If there were problems with it, these were solved pre-adoption otherwise it would be the L96A2 as in L85A2 (i.e. H&K-modified SA-80).

AFAIK the Parker Hale M85s were based on a modified Santa Barbara Mauser 98 action which is my main gripe against it, I prefer a smother, more solid action, but it still shoots well. IMO, it still has the potential accuracy problems of most conventionally stocked rifles which are not present with the AI stocking system.

[HoboWithAK]

" And during WW2 Soviet snipers had recorder kills at 1,800 meters with 3.5 power PU scope. During Afghan war Soviet snipers also scored 1,200+ meter kills with SVD."

Twenty minutes ago I shot the ear off a trout from 1,952 meters with my Marlin 60 .22LR (LONG RANGE) while looking through a backwards set of 20x binoculars lined up seven feet behind the open sights.

Sorry, i'm going to call BULL **** on a 1,800 meter shot that was anything but coincidental with low tolerance 7.62x54R from a Nagant with a 3.5 power optic.

[California Joe]

This one time at Adobe Walls in 1874 I shot a Comanche at 1,538 yards with a Sharps 50-70.

Iron sights bitch.

Your pal, Billy Dixon

[TacoDelRio]

This one time at Adobe Walls in 1874 I shot a Comanche at 1,538 yards with a Sharps 50-70.

Iron sights bitch.

Your pal, Billy Dixon

Shiit not even an ACOG? ;)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/TacoDelRio/Sharps20Carbines.jpg

[sct1886]

M14 for me

yeah i know... its weird for me to say this

but its very accurate, reliable, and delivers a nice punch

Just curious, have you had chance to handle one?? Best Regards Scott

[TacoDelRio]

I don't think Roman has handled one M14. Probably more on the order of many M14's.

[oldsoak]

This one time at Adobe Walls in 1874 I shot a Comanche at 1,538 yards with a Sharps 50-70.

Iron sights bitch.

Your pal, Billy Dixon

Was he the one yer man was aiming at ? :-P:

[RomanS]

Just curious, have you had chance to handle one?? Best Regards Scott

Yes I've fired many versions of Springfield M-14. Scout with a shorter barrel, full size one, even a full auto one. On top of that, my friend has it's relative M-21. Now thats a fine support sniper rifle!

As for Dragunovs. I've fired them all. Russian, Chinese, Yugoslavian and Romanian versions which you cant call true SVDs.
I owned a Chinese NDM-86 for some years. In matter of fact, i have 3 SVDs at home right now.

SVD is the sexiest weapon in my opinion, but the accuracy goes to M-14.

[Firefly26]

Yeah I have to agree. The SVD is a sexy rifle. I love it. But you will be lucky if you can get it down to less than 1.5 MOA. If you show up to the range with it other snipers will laugh at you. At 600m you will hit a man, which is all it was required to do.

[RomanS]

Yeah I have to agree. The SVD is a sexy rifle. I love it. But you will be lucky if you can get it down to less than 1.5 MOA. If you show up to the range with it other snipers will laugh at you. At 600m you will hit a man, which is all it was required to do.
Actually I never had any M700 guys laugh at me when I show up with 2 SVDs. Most of them standing there and drooling, and the other ones are like "WOW, whats is that?"
One tool couldnt take it anymore, came up to me and asked "what a nice tricked out SKS I have"

THATS JUST WRONG

[SEAHAWK]

Yeah I have to agree. The SVD is a sexy rifle. I love it. But you will be lucky if you can get it down to less than 1.5 MOA. If you show up to the range with it other snipers will laugh at you. At 600m you will hit a man, which is all it was required to do.

Actually, you'll be lucky if even you can see the target with that f...ing scope... I just don't get it... I have done some researches and found this: Almost all of the snipers has a "f***ing" scope. (I mean below 12X) COME OOOONNN !!! Even my little hand binocular has 10X zoom! So, what's the difference between a little hand binocular (its lenght is not longer than 15cm) and a SNIPER SCOPE !?? I'm totally disappointed.:( (even a BARRET has 10X zoom... Oo man...)

[RomanS]

Actually, you'll be lucky if even you can see the target with that f...ing scope... I just don't get it... I have done some researches and found this: Almost all of the snipers has a "f***ing" scope. (I mean below 12X) COME OOOONNN !!! Even my little hand binocular has 10X zoom! So, what's the difference between a little hand binocular (its lenght is not longer than 15cm) and a SNIPER SCOPE !?? I'm totally disappointed.:( (even a BARRET has 10X zoom... Oo man...)

Well SVD was not designed for pressicion(sp). It was designed to support your squad with more accurate fire at targets between 100-500 meters.

[SEAHAWK]

Well SVD was not designed for pressicion(sp). It was designed to support your squad with more accurate fire at targets between 100-500 meters.

No no, you misunderstood me... I'm not judging the SVD. It's a general comlaining. Can you believe that ? BARRET, which is a anti-material long-range heavy-sniper, has a 10X. Lots of snipers has 7-10X scopes. Only some tactical snipers (m-24,m-40) has more powerful scopes.

(BTW, SVD'S max effecive range is 1200m. Am I wrong ? If so, isn't it sensible to choose a more powerful scope ?)

[RomanS]

No no, you misunderstood me... I'm not judging the SVD. It's a general comlaining. Can you believe that ? BARRET, which is a anti-material long-range heavy-sniper, has a 10X. Lots of snipers has 7-10X scopes. Only some tactical snipers (m-24,m-40) has more powerful scopes.

(BTW, SVD'S max effecive range is 1200m. Am I wrong ? If so, isn't it sensible to choose a more powerful scope ?)

Oh I got you bro!

Yeah it is crazy! I agree with you.

I think SVDs ER is 1200, but good luck lol

[California Joe]

Was he the one yer man was aiming at ? :-P:

Actually, although he was a helluva good shot by all accounts I've read, Billy Dixon himself never claimed it was anything other than a lucky shot. :)

[Laworkerbee]

Aw he was just being modest

[GazB]

you can use map predicited fire with a gppmg to annoy someone out to 4k and 50 rounds burst of 7.62 dropping out of the sky will annoy.


My Lee Enfield rifle has flip up sights that go out to almost 2km. The idea was to get everyone in the unit to aim for one point and to fire a volley of shots (ie everyone firing at the same time). The result was lots of bullets coming in at once in one area. Pretty useless against a point target like one man, but against a group of soldiers who thought they were behind cover but are not because the longer range means the bullets come in on an angle it can be quite effective occasionally. Was never reliable enough to be used as a standard method of attack or defence, but in static warfare it is something your troops can do to avoid boredom and feel like you are hitting the enemy.


1200m ? Better chances, but still effing difficult.

In my opinion 400m is darn near impossible 50 % of the time but what would I know? I only shoot animals, not people, and I don't have regular access to the weapons we are talking about.


The SVD is 50" long, 4 ft, 2", the M14 is 44 inches long. It's not just the over all length (only 6 inches difference).

The standard SVD is 1.225m long which according to my calculations means it is exactly 50 inches long... assuming 1 inch is 24.5mm. Most figures for the M14 seem to be about 1118mm which equates to 45.5 inches. Of course both are well over a metre long.
If length is an issue (and it is in APCs and aircraft) then the SVDS has a full length of 1.135m or half an inch longer than the M14 with the stock extended and 0.875m or 35.7 inches long with it folded... 10 inches shorter than the M14.


IMO the M14/21 is much more user friendly than the SVD, due to the action, which has a shorter stroke,

The lightened gas piston on the SVD moves less than 5mm ( ie 1/5th of an inch). It is described as being like the AK system but of a very short stroke without the heavy gas rod of the AK bouncing back and forth. Now you are saying that it is your opinion that the M14/21 is more "user friendly" due to the fact that the M14/M21 uses an even shorter recoil stroke than an SVD?

I would have thought layout of controls and parts like the safety lever and mag release and cocking handle and for that matter how many parts you have to clean and look after constituted user friendlyness.


But I agree with you that for that round 1000m is very very far away.

It was stupid "we need to hit targets at 1km or more with standard infantry rifles" that killed a lot of useful rifle designs. Perhaps in the desert or in mountains you might be able to justify such things but in anywhere with enough water to support vegetation such things should be left to professional snipers.

If you need specialised and expensive ammo to get to actually hit things at 1,000m, and more importantly you need a very high standard of training to actually get your average soldier to even just see targets at that range let alone identify them as hostile and actually take the shot (without all the advantages you have on a firing range... like actually knowing the range to the target, and having the target remain still, and of course having flat open ground between you and the uncamouflaged target.

Personally I think it would make more sense to reduce the range to 800m or even 600m to be a bit more realistic. Of course then you could add such worthy weapons as the FN FAL and the 7.62 x 51mm Galil as well.


Actually, you'll be lucky if even you can see the target with that f...ing scope... I just don't get it... I have done some researches and found this: Almost all of the snipers has a "f***ing" scope. (I mean below 12X) COME OOOONNN !!! Even my little hand binocular has 10X zoom! So, what's the difference between a little hand binocular (its lenght is not longer than 15cm) and a SNIPER SCOPE !?? I'm totally disappointed. (even a BARRET has 10X zoom... Oo man...)

I don't know about sniping at 600m, but shooting normal game I use a x2.5 scope. Nice large bright clear picture, wide field of view, and the minimum of wobble. Ie the low power makes the scope steadier and reduces the magnification of all those little movements you make when holding a rifle.
For finding targets I use a set of x 7 binoculars, while most snipers probably use a spotting scope with much higher power, but I am only look out to 400-500m max normally for game to get closer to to have a shot at. Sometimes when hunting small game I take a variable power 3-9 power scope and use it instead of Binos for scanning for game but Binos are worth the extra weight normally. Once I have identified the target and had a look around to make sure there are no problems (ie sheep or cows or people or property that could be damaged in the foreground or background) I usually drop the magnification down to 3 or so for the actual shot.
Personally I find very high magnification is great on a shooting range for use against paper targets that don't move, but lower magnification in the field leads to more kills and easier shooting.


(BTW, SVD'S max effecive range is 1200m. Am I wrong ? If so, isn't it sensible to choose a more powerful scope ?)

A bright clear stable view of the target is more important than being able to count his fillings before you fire. Though the SVD can use other scope types like the 1P29 Giperon with a x3-x9 x 42 capability. (ie the magnification is x3 to x9. The objective lens (the lens at the front that gathers all the light) is 42mm in diameter).

[Chris]

In fact its not that bad to have a 6x scope when supporting up to 600m.
We used 10x binoculars for the spotter and 6x scope on the rifle. As someone said leave the +1000 to professional snipers. When you are not on an spec ops sniper misson then you have to support your group from 100-600m with exact fired rounds not killing some enemy officer at 2km in the middle of the night with your buddy behind enemy lines.
In this case a +10x scope wouldnt do the job because your fov would just be too small.
Have you ever tried to look through the binocs at 200m and then changing to your rifle. In the first seconds you have no idea where you are, depending on the battlefield

[TacoDelRio]

Actually I never had any M700 guys laugh at me when I show up with 2 SVDs. Most of them standing there and drooling, and the other ones are like "WOW, whats is that?"
One tool couldnt take it anymore, came up to me and asked "what a nice tricked out SKS I have"

THATS JUST WRONG

You shoulda broken your foot off in his asss.

[SEAHAWK]

In fact its not that bad to have a 6x scope when supporting up to 600m.
We used 10x binoculars for the spotter and 6x scope on the rifle. As someone said leave the +1000 to professional snipers. When you are not on an spec ops sniper misson then you have to support your group from 100-600m with exact fired rounds not killing some enemy officer at 2km in the middle of the night with your buddy behind enemy lines.
In this case a +10x scope wouldnt do the job because your fov would just be too small.
Have you ever tried to look through the binocs at 200m and then changing to your rifle. In the first seconds you have no idea where you are, depending on the battlefield


I don't know about sniping at 600m, but shooting normal game I use a x2.5 scope. Nice large bright clear picture, wide field of view, and the minimum of wobble. Ie the low power makes the scope steadier and reduces the magnification of all those little movements you make when holding a rifle.
For finding targets I use a set of x 7 binoculars, while most snipers probably use a spotting scope with much higher power, but I am only look out to 400-500m max normally for game to get closer to to have a shot at. Sometimes when hunting small game I take a variable power 3-9 power scope and use it instead of Binos for scanning for game but Binos are worth the extra weight normally. Once I have identified the target and had a look around to make sure there are no problems (ie sheep or cows or people or property that could be damaged in the foreground or background) I usually drop the magnification down to 3 or so for the actual shot.
Personally I find very high magnification is great on a shooting range for use against paper targets that don't move, but lower magnification in the field leads to more kills and easier shooting.


Quote:
(BTW, SVD'S max effecive range is 1200m. Am I wrong ? If so, isn't it sensible to choose a more powerful scope ?)


A bright clear stable view of the target is more important than being able to count his fillings before you fire. Though the SVD can use other scope types like the 1P29 Giperon with a x3-x9 x 42 capability. (ie the magnification is x3 to x9. The objective lens (the lens at the front that gathers all the light) is 42mm in diameter).

Thanks for the great info. It was very informative for me.:) So, I can say my "little" hand binocular has more than seen with it's 10X... Wow, I learned so many things in this thread. Really thanks.:)

[Roaming East]

learning more about the SVD than i ever really intended. What a pleasant surprise

[Laworkerbee]

My Lee Enfield rifle has flip up sights that go out to almost 2km. The idea was to get everyone in the unit to aim for one point and to fire a volley of shots (ie everyone firing at the same time). The result was lots of bullets coming in at once in one area. Pretty useless against a point target like one man, but against a group of soldiers who thought they were behind cover but are not because the longer range means the bullets come in on an angle it can be quite effective occasionally. Was never reliable enough to be used as a standard method of attack or defence, but in static warfare it is something your troops can do to avoid boredom and feel like you are hitting the enemy.

Wow I took those area fire sights off my Mk#2 ( 1914 ) I never see Enfields with them anymore

[RomanS]

You shoulda broken your foot off in his asss.
rofl rofl rofl
when are you Cali people are coming to see us wild dogs here?

[martinexsquaddie]

shot out to 900metres in cadets once with a No4 303 got all the rounds on a fig 11 pretty
snap shooting with a SLR was hitting every other target at that range
did an sf shot out to 1800 with iron sights its virutally impossible to get a good sight picture at that range actually went to see an optica nafter that shoot.. he just laughed "what do you think you are an eagle you don't need glasses you need this new invention called binoculars :)

[GazB]

Wow I took those area fire sights off my Mk#2 ( 1914 ) I never see Enfields with them anymore

I got mine given to me by a friend. When he bought it someone had removed all the iron sights and had a scope fitted. He got the iron sights parts and put them back and removed the scope mountings. It is a Mk4*, which is a standard Mk4 but it is made in the US.


shot out to 900metres in cadets once with a No4 303 got all the rounds on a fig 11 pretty

The longest range I have been to was 600m and the targets were little dots in the distance. Of course where I hunt you can see much further than that but it isn't measured out... Very impressed with shooting at 900m and actually hitting the target.

[TacoDelRio]

rofl rofl rofl
when are you Cali people are coming to see us wild dogs here?

Hey I'm just trapped here, I ain't no "cali person". Bastage!

[RomanS]

Hey I'm just trapped here, I ain't no "cali person". Bastage!
Lets start scheduling bro

[TacoDelRio]

Lets start scheduling bro

Got the money?

I'm saving up. You're north or south of Flagstaff?

EDIT: Oh yeah, M14! Woo.

[RomanS]

Got the money?

I'm saving up. You're north or south of Flagstaff?

EDIT: Oh yeah, M14! Woo.

I can save up for ammo, and food. Weapons and place to stay will be provided for you. You get your asss over here, and put a bottle on the table!

Im in Phoenix. Ask Stuka, he knows how it is, and where I am. Im sure he will be getting here in the same car/vehicle with you and Laworkerbee.

March?

[TacoDelRio]

I can save up for ammo, and food. Weapons and place to stay will be provided for you. You get your asss over here, and put a bottle on the table!

Im in Phoenix. Ask Stuka, he knows how it is, and where I am. Im sure he will be getting here in the same car/vehicle with you and Laworkerbee.

March?

Sounds possible.

Shall I bring a tricked-out SKS?

PS: I'm allergic to cats.

[RomanS]

Sounds possible.

Shall I bring a tricked-out SKS?

PS: I'm allergic to cats.

You can bring anything you want.

As for cats, no problem at all. I guess you can sleep and we will hang out at my friends house. He's about 30 seconds away.

[TacoDelRio]

You can bring anything you want.

As for cats, no problem at all. I guess you can sleep and we will hang out at my friends house. He's about 30 seconds away.

I'm just pulling your chain about cats.

They're actually quite delicious over an Esbit with some cajun spices!

[Laworkerbee]

I'm just pulling your chain about cats.

They're actually quite delicious over an Esbit with some cajun spices!

I'm bummed I'm missing Stuka's shoot this weekend. MrSkorotsnoy I could use your help buddy I just got my hands on a Remington 700...a damned fine rifle firing a hot little round...the 22-250 cartridge it's like a .223 on steroids!

I NEED A SPOTTER!

And Roman, you make the date man, I'll help rally our people out there. I for one can't wait! MrSkorotsnoy stop wasting all your money on strippers, and beer and get some cashed saved up for an Arizona shoot woot

[LaoSexMachine]

It's not the weapon, but the shooter. A good shooter can turn a rifle into any widow maker.

[StukaJr]

Hehe, cool guys - me and Roman have the date set, I guess if we have 3 people coming I can rent a ride.
We can write "Just Married" on the back with toothpaste and drag empty ammo cans all the way to AZ.

[RomanS]

Hehe, cool guys - me and Roman have the date set, I guess if we have 3 people coming I can rent a ride.
We can write "Just Married" on the back with toothpaste and drag empty ammo cans all the way to AZ.

ahahahahahhahahahaha
you are killing me here штука
lol

[StukaJr]

Hey, we are from California - we won't turn many heads until we pass the border.

[akmarksman]

back to the topic on hand..

The M14 for teh win.

[ed316]

It's not the weapon, but the shooter. A good shooter can turn a rifle into any widow maker.

X2...................

[TacoDelRio]

Cool beans.

I think I'd just go with an SKS with a 20x scope, quadpod, and 8 Surefire lights.

PM all.

[SANDLINE]

M-14......... one of the finest combat wepons ever devised.

[pipaz]

don't compare the rifles, compare which rifle for which mission it will be utilized. the svd seems to me that it was built as a versatile military rifle where as the m-14 is a rifle made for tailored missions coming from a wide background. it was developed as a replacement for the BAR as a squad automatic weapon for vietnam then was transformed into a semi-auto marksman rifle. today it is a graet infantry marksman rifle and spotter rifle for snipers but as a sniper i wouldn't want to have either for a 1000m shot.

[TacoDelRio]

don't compare the rifles, compare which rifle for which mission it will be utilized. the svd seems to me that it was built as a versatile military rifle where as the m-14 is a rifle made for tailored missions coming from a wide background. it was developed as a replacement for the BAR as a squad automatic weapon for vietnam then was transformed into a semi-auto marksman rifle. today it is a graet infantry marksman rifle and spotter rifle for snipers but as a sniper i wouldn't want to have either for a 1000m shot.

The M14 is a battle rifle. It's more versatile than an SVD because it's most basic form is.... a battle rifle. With nothing fancy about it.

Neither for a 1,000m h3adsh0t? I use my MAC 11 though...

[Luno]

It's not the weapon, but the shooter. A good shooter can turn a rifle into any widow maker.

Nope its the 50/50 (shooter/weapon) mix you need to get a good sniper :-D