Leopard2 and Challenger2 (warning some big ass pics) :)

[Operation Ivy]

Well ill start with a piece of crap and end with a great machine :P
So that means we start with the Leo

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-54.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-52.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-49.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-34.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-33.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-44.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-56.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-37.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-29.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-32.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-16.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-17.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-12.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-11.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-06.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-03.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-05.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/erwincoops/leopard2a6/Leopard2a6-02.jpg

http://www.kmweg.de/img/kosovo3.jpg

http://attrasoft.com/imagelib/tank/leopard2.jpg

http://www.greendevils.pl/t_h_c/leopard_2/Bw-Leo2_63.jpg

http://www2.helsinginsanomat.fi/kuvat/uutiset/2002/02/21/20020221yo03i.jpg

Next is the Challenger 2
Great Pic woot
http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/images/ops/basrah_cr2_cobra_hr.jpg

http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/images/ops/challenger_basrah_hr.jpg

http://www.army-technology.com/contractor_images/md/md1.jpg

Big Ass pic,but good :D
http://news.mod.uk/img/pressdatabase/images/supportingImages/large/princess_anne_tn.jpg

http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/Armoured%20Vehicles/Images/Chall208.jpg

http://images.21dnn.com/mmsource/image/2002-5-16/challenger-30.jpg

http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/images/land/rsdg_flag.jpg

http://1.im.cz/n/photo/00/48/76efjtp-topsirka.jpg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2003/04/09/wloot09.jpeg

http://news.mod.uk/images/ss2_rdgcr2_large.jpg

http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/europe/Angleterre/vehicules_lourds/Challenger2/Challenger_2_Main_Battle_Tank_Iraq_War_British_10.jpg

Enjoy woot

["sniper" tom]

Nice challenger pics Ivy ! thanks !
and is it just me or doesnt' Ivy love Leopard 2,? :)
http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/images/ops/challenger_basrah_hr.jpg
50$ he aint gonna make it

once again, nice pics of the challenger!!

[Operation Ivy]

O i love the Leo :-*$ :D

I dont have like any really good pics of the Leo :(

["sniper" tom]

i have seen some nice leo pictures but then the challenger pics came so i said, bye bye leo !
but there were also good pics of the leo!
woot

[memphiz]

great pics woot

[Fenna]

Nice pics, gotta love the challenger 2

[Uninen]

Nice pics, gotta love the challenger 2

Yeah,
I too have nice Challenger pics.. in which.. they are blown to bits! :lol:

Anyhow,
Nice Leo pics Ivy! woot

--

http://www.haaland.info/sweden/tank/leo121.jpg

http://www.haaland.info/norway/tank/bilder/leopard2.jpg

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/leopard-2-pz87-093.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/leopard-2-pz87-094.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/leopard-2-pz87-068.jpg

http://www.bh-infoecke.linzland.info/wallpapers/wp-leopard.jpg

http://home.hetnet.nl/~ghpcaubo/2a5nl.jpg

--

[Midav]

Cool pics! woot

[Chmiel]

http://www.altair.com.pl/files/r1103_leo02.jpg
http://www.altair.com.pl/files/r1103_leo04.jpg
leo 2A4 from polish 10th Armoured Cav Bde, crossing water tank

http://www.luteranie.pl/edw/dzialalnosc/dzial2002/maj2003/105-0593_IMG.JPG
http://www.luteranie.pl/edw/dzialalnosc/dzial2002/maj2003/105-0596_IMG.JPG
polish Leo's 2A4 on training

http://www.republika.pl/panzer10/panzer10/artyk/leo2pl.jpg
another polish Leo

[Parzival]

On´t forget the Abraam. That´s a good tank too.

[Parzival]

Sweden got the New Leo a5. It´s a better tank then the old Leo 2 a4.

[Parzival]

The Polish Leopards looks like the Tiger Tank

[Operation Ivy]

Can some1 tell me why on the LeoA6 the armor on the turret is slanted down? wouldnt that make the round bounce into the tank?

[perdurabo]

this isnt real armour on a6 its "fake" ;-) something more like that cage on stryker its empty inside, when triple warhead hits this first warhed blows up before main armour...
I would love to see our leo with our ERA :>

[Parzival]

Can some1 tell me why on the LeoA6 the armor on the turret is slanted down? wouldnt that make the round bounce into the tank?
You mean a4?

[Operation Ivy]

This is what i mean



http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/Leo1.JPG

[Schwabo Elite]

Compare to the Challenger 2 the Leopard 2 has a low profile. The wedge design of the turret front of the Leopard 2 A5 and A6 is supposed to ricochet the incoming projectiles and enlarge the length of the armor to be penetrated.

The point is that in your sketch the wedge ist to "big". In fact it's not that high and can not cause so much problems. In any way, I am not sure if it could not, by accident, end up as a projectile trap, like in the old PzKpfw V Panther Ausf. D.

SE

[Stavka]

This is what i mean



http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/Leo1.JPG

OMFG! Y0ur ph0t0sh0p ski11z are teh 1337! j00 ownz0rs us! woot

Umm... actually i have no idea why its slanted down like that... It must serve some sort of purpose...

[Nondescript]

Sweden got the New Leo a5. It´s a better tank then the old Leo 2 a4.

No, we now have the Leopard 2S, which is the Swedish (better) version of the Leo2 A6. Its Swedish designation is STRV122.

The previous MBT called STRV121, correct me if I'm wrong is built on the A4 version


this isnt real armour on a6 its "fake" something more like that cage on stryker its empty inside, when triple warhead hits this first warhed blows up before main armour...
I would love to see our leo with our ERA :>

I've been told that there is no existing tank amunition that can take out the Leo 2S head on, I don't know it for a fact but I have no reason to doubt the sources.


This is what i mean



http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/Leo1.JPG

From what I know it takes very little to disrupt the shaped charge of the round. The angle of the slanting front on the A6 turret is very narrow, and it will be very hard for a round to deliver its full effect.


Oh and great photos, I especially like the teedybear on top of the Challanger
http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/images/ops/challenger_basrah_hr.jpg
That's what I called pimped. ;) woot woot woot

[mustamato]

http://www.xbox-connection.com/hostedimages/Leo1.JPG

As I´ve understood it, the armour is not "hard" enought to allow the round
to bounce down. It will rather get stuck in the armour. Because of the design
of the original Leopard 2´s it was simply not possible to get a optimal design
of the extra armour. It had to be done like this because of the driver. Also
only the tower of the Leopard 2A5 has a larger weight than most IFV´s already.
______________________________________

Finnish Leopard 2A4.

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/leopard1.jpg

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/leopard2.jpg

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/leopard3.jpg

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v33/mustamato/leopard4.jpg

[marktigger]

uninen wrote



Yeah,
I too have nice Challenger pics.. in which.. they are blown to bits!

interesting considering only 1 challey 2 was taken out during the recent gulf war and that was by another Chaley2 at point blank range.
How many Leopard 2's have sustained real battle damage? ;)

How many Abrhams did the americans have taken out or abandon.?

BTW 1 PARA liked their little toy and were a bit miffed when they had to hand it back.

has any one the link to the pic of the Challey 2 with the mine going of near it?

The only problems with Challey2 is 2 piece ammo, The Hughes chain gun being unreliable, and the Clansman radios are about 20 years out of date.

[Groove]

How many Leopard 2's have sustained real battle damage?

How many British Tanks were hit by a russian top-notch tank during Desert Storm or any other wars ?

Were there any British Tank hit by a iraqi t-72 in a distance under 1 km ?

......... and so on and on and on.....

Groove

[Operation Ivy]

Thank for the answers bout the Leo turret :D

and i thought the Brits lost 2 Challenger2's due to friendly fire :|

[MolliG]

http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/europe/Angleterre/vehicules_lourds/Challenger2/Challenger_2_Main_Battle_Tank_Iraq_War_British_10.jpg

I love the way the Challenger 2 looks, especially with its skirts attached, and dirt and scratches all over it. Just looks 'British'. Doesn't look all angular and fancy, simply looks like a f***ing 'ard punch. :D

Another great picture...

http://sa.nextwish.org/Unsorted/War%20Photos/trap.jpg

:P

[Operation Ivy]

I love the way the Challenger 2 looks, especially with its skirts attached

Agreed! :D i wish the Abrams had a more yellow like color like the Challenger2

Awsome pic woot

[Ian H]

I'm still unsure, have we established that the turret armour on the Leo 2A6 does not deflect projectiles down into the driver like on the Porsche turret of the King Tiger?



Also, I agree with the comments about the Challenger 2, it just looks fantastic.

One more thing, I have an old Jane's AFV's which says the Challenger 2 is the heaviest of the Abrams Leo 2 and itself. Just out of interest, how do their weights relate today? I can't find any accurate sources that agree.

Thanks in advance

[unwanted]

Sweden got the New Leo a5. It´s a better tank then the old Leo 2 a4.

No, we now have the Leopard 2S, which is the Swedish (better) version of the Leo2 A6. Its Swedish designation is STRV122.

The previous MBT called STRV121, correct me if I'm wrong is built on the A4 version

The STRV122 is built upon the Leoa5 not eh A6 .. But the STRV122 is almost as modern as he Leo2a6 .. Main difference is that STRV122 still has the old L44 gun where the Leo2a6 has the new L55 gun .. that is one more meter of evil destruction ..

[mustamato]

Sweden got
the New Leo a5. It´s a better tank then the old Leo 2 a4.

No, we now have the Leopard 2S, which is the Swedish (better) version of
the Leo2 A6. Its Swedish designation is STRV122.

The previous MBT called STRV121, correct me if I'm wrong is built on the
A4 version

The STRV122 is built upon the Leoa5 not eh A6 .. But the STRV122 is
almost as modern as he Leo2a6 .. Main difference is that STRV122 still
has the old L44 gun where the Leo2a6 has the new L55 gun .. that is one
more meter of evil destruction ..

As I´ve understood it the swedish Strv 122 might get the L55, not next year
or the year after that, but sooner or later. And as I´ve understood it, the Strv
122 is kind of a Leopard 2A5.5+ not quite a 2A6 but almost, and I´m not only
talking about the gun then.

[soma]

The challenger 2 is so beautiful, especially with the skirts. Abrahms, Leo, all got nothing on it. woot

[ash933]

If I remember correctly the skirts are there to prevent a certain type of gravel from being kicked up into the engine and thus causing problems.


http://sa.nextwish.org/Unsorted/War%20Photos/challanger2.jpg

[Ian H]

Oh yes.

Its not very good military reasoning, but that pic alone would make me keep the rifled cannon. :D :D :D

[soma]

Difference between smooth bored and rifled?

[Backis]

I'm still unsure, have we established that the turret armour on the Leo 2A6 does not deflect projectiles down into the driver like on the Porsche turret of the King Tiger?


HEAT doesn't bounce, neither does long-rod penetrators. A SABOT bites and gets stuck on the armour or penetrates.

No shot trap for serious threat projectiles on the Leo2A5/2A6/2S. But if someone brought up an old 122mm D25T and solid-shot AP there might be a problem... but I'd like to see an IS3 get close enough to hit ;)

[Backis]

Difference between smooth bored and rifled?

The Brits are sticking to their rifled gun since they got a HESH fetish... ;)

A rifled barrel is generally more accurate, HOWEVER, HEAT doesn't like to be spun, and neither does long-rod penetrators, therefore British SABOT needs a special "shoe" wich counters the spin induced by the rifling, leading to some loss of power (and it gets no accuracy benefit for that rifling either).

There are plans to replace the L30 120mm rifled gun with Rheinmetalls 120mmL55 smoothbore. This way the Brits won't have to research their own ammo, and will integrate within NATO logistics more smoothly.

Plenty of weirdness need to be sorted out inside the Chally though... nowadays they use two-part ammo (projectile plus propellant bag), while 120mm smoothbore ammo is unitary, so the ammo storage needs to be completely redesigned...

[Sorbas2000]

I don't believe that the Challenger is arealy good tank. It lost until now every official competition, only UK and some camel driver use this tank. Leopard won nearby every competition, half of Europe use the Leopard-2A4 od A5.

US wanted to give 400 M1A1 Abrams for free (ok not realy for free but instead of 1,7 billion USD) to Bulgarian army to change the russian T-72M1. Bulgarian army staff said "thanks guys". In the next future also in Bulgaria some tank units will be equipped with Leopard-2 tank.

I mean just compare who uses M1 Abrams or Challenger tanks: US, UK and some arabs. This is very clear for me!

[Javehn]

Sorba , you are officialy a dumbass of the year . Thank you .

[Operation Ivy]

Sorba , you are officialy a dumbass of the year . Thank you .

woot

[jamesp]

blah blah blah

http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/snuffit2/si2cover.gif

[Nondescript]

Sweden got the New Leo a5. It´s a better tank then the old Leo 2 a4.

No, we now have the Leopard 2S, which is the Swedish (better) version of the Leo2 A6. Its Swedish designation is STRV122.

The previous MBT called STRV121, correct me if I'm wrong is built on the A4 version

The STRV122 is built upon the Leoa5 not eh A6 .. But the STRV122 is almost as modern as he Leo2a6 .. Main difference is that STRV122 still has the old L44 gun where the Leo2a6 has the new L55 gun .. that is one more meter of evil destruction ..

Ok sorry, I'm clearly no tank expert, but still I was half right. ;)
A question though, would I be wrong saying that the Leo 2S is the most advanced Leo today.

[Sorbas2000]

Sorba , you are officialy a dumbass of the year . Thank you .

Could you please give me a reason for your attack against me? Did I said something wrong? Maybe I missed all the exports of Abrams and Challengers? If not, shut this **** up to attack other forum members, ok you nutter!

[Javehn]

Zorba , you are a dumbass . And a real dumbass can't except that he is a dumbass , so you are indeed real dumbass .


I don't believe that the Challenger is arealy good tank. It lost until now every official competition, only UK and some camel driver use this tank. Leopard won nearby every competition, half of Europe use the Leopard-2A4 od A5.

US wanted to give 400 M1A1 Abrams for free (ok not realy for free but instead of 1,7 billion USD) to Bulgarian army to change the russian T-72M1. Bulgarian army staff said "thanks guys". In the next future also in Bulgaria some tank units will be equipped with Leopard-2 tank.

I mean just compare who uses M1 Abrams or Challenger tanks: US, UK and some arabs. This is very clear for me

Idiot .

[Sorbas2000]

Zorba , you are a dumbass . And a real dumbass can't except that he is a dumbass , so you are indeed real dumbass .


I don't believe that the Challenger is arealy good tank. It lost until now every official competition, only UK and some camel driver use this tank. Leopard won nearby every competition, half of Europe use the Leopard-2A4 od A5.

US wanted to give 400 M1A1 Abrams for free (ok not realy for free but instead of 1,7 billion USD) to Bulgarian army to change the russian T-72M1. Bulgarian army staff said "thanks guys". In the next future also in Bulgaria some tank units will be equipped with Leopard-2 tank.

I mean just compare who uses M1 Abrams or Challenger tanks: US, UK and some arabs. This is very clear for me

Idiot .

You still haven't explained anything. Maybe you are the dumbhole. Sorry, not maybe, but for sure. So please give me a favour and shut up. You are realy an idiot. I gave you an explaination why the Challenger can't be very good compared to other tanks and you just answered bull****. No arguments, just bull****t.

BTW, you are an russian jew who's living in irsael, isn't it!? It's just for my information.

[Operation Ivy]

Yup the Challey 2 and Abrams are **** cause not many other countries buy them :roll: , so u can say the same for the Merk4 and the LeClerc and both those are great tanks, but because other countires dont buy them there **** :roll:

[rafaelcb]

http://www.mde.es/mde/presup/2002/images/leo.jpg
http://www.rtve.es/tve/program/alfa/images/Leopard.jpg
http://www.mde.es/mde/armas/images/tierra/leopardo.jpg

[oldsoak]

Good pictures !

- No modern tank is going to disappoint, be it the Leo 2, Chally 2, Leclerc, Merkava 4, M1 Abrams, T90 or whatever. The doctrine, the training and the competence of the crews is a major ingredient in whether the deployment of a tank is a success or not. The best tank deployed in a dumb fashion by a poorly trained crew will soon be into a world of pain.
BTW, the two part ammuntion used by the British was developed because it was thought at the time to be both easier to store in the confined spaces below the turret, and safer because propellant and projectile were now seperate. Nowadays the propellants are much more stable and fire supression systems are much advanced. It was suggested that the UK adopt the Rheinmettal 120mm smoothbore projectiles and gun tube, but stick to the two part ammuntion concept to have minimal change to the interior of the challenger. Be interesting to see if they do adopt this.

[Dave.mil]

Uninen

Post the Pics then or don't you really have any?

There is a better tank than the Challenger 2 it's the Challenger 2E but as this forum is full of "tank experts" I'm sure I don't need to put any details on here.

As for Leo has it been deployed in a warzone?

[Javehn]

Right on , dave .

Well , actually about Leos , Dutch Leos were deployed on Balkans as a part of KFOR , and even participated on some small scale battles .There is a story about it somewhere in here , i can find it and post it in here .

[Groove]

Whats this sh*t with "real battle" ?

Wouldnt be the m1a2 for example a great tank without entering "real battle" ?

So a tank cant be the best (if there is one) without entering "real battle" ?

Btw what is real battle for you ?

Greetings

Groove

[Javehn]

Here is a picture :

http://michans.virtualave.net/ba03bilder/950318b.jpg

Danish Leo 1 in Tuzla . Here is a story from this site : http://hem.passagen.se/bankel/nordbat.htm




`THE MOUSE ATE THE CAT'
By ROD NORDLAND
c.1994 Newsweek
(Distributed by New York Times Special Features)

TUZLA It was late at night when the Bosnian Serbs began to shell a United Nations observation post called Tango Two in the Sapna Finger, a Muslim-held salient near Tuzla. Danish Lt. Col. Lars Moller of the Nordic Battalion ordered two platoons of his Leopard tanks to charge to the rescue, which was just what the Serbs expected. As the seven tanks reached the foot of Sugarloaf Mountain, the Serbs opened fire with antitank missiles, artillery and machine guns.

``It was an ambush, and a damn good one,'' Colonel Moller said. ``Tango Two was the cheese, and we were the mouse. But this time the mouse ate the cat.''

One Danish platoon took cover behind buildings; the other maneuvered to high ground and counterambushed. When it was over, nine Serb soldiers were dead.

The ``Nordbat'' suffered no casualties. More important, it had done what no other U.N. peacekeepers in Bosnia had done before: strike back at the Serbs with force.

The April 30 battle of the Sapna Finger does not signal a change in U.N. strategy; in fact, U.N. officials in Sarajevo later played down its significance and hinted that Moller's troops had overreacted.

For some, though, it made a deadly point about how Western peacekeepers might fare against a Serb force that until now has had the field to itself.

Confrontation with the Serbs is not in the U.N.'s official playbook. That was clear a few days after the Sapna Finger fight.

When Bosnian Serbs violated their own agreements and blocked a convoy of British peacekeepers on their way to the U.N.-designated ``safe haven'' of Gorazde, the U.N.'s special representative, Yasushi Akashi, cut a deal.

In exchange for letting the U.N. troops go in, he allowed the Serbs to move at least five tanks across the 20-kilometer zone around Sarajevo from which heavy Serb weapons are banned under threat of NATO airstrikes.

The tanks reportedly were redeployed on the Serbs' southern front. Incensed, Bosnian government authorities demanded Akashi's resignation as the top U.N. official in the former Yugoslavia.

Other U.N. officials in Sarajevo tried to cover up the continued presence of 100 Serb soldiers within three kilometers of Gorazde and some heavy weapons within the no-go zone around that city, too, despite NATO's orders that they withdraw or face airstrikes.

In contrast, the Nordic Battalion, drawing on a long history of peacekeeping work by its Danish, Swedish and Norwegian troops, has showed how a tough stance can work in Bosnia.

When Croat troops massacred the villagers of Stupni Do, Nordbat moved in, protecting survivors and preventing further violence against Muslims in the nearby town of Vares. Then, when Muslim troops took Vares, Nordbat intervened to make sure there were no reprisals.

They didn't go looking for a fight at Sapna Finger; the battalion's Tango Two post had been shelled 28 times since February, and their tanks had come under Serb attack nearly a dozen times in a month.

Moller, 40, the battalion's deputy commander and its top tank officer, is a past karate champion; his father was a Danish Resistance fighter in World War II, and his brother is also a U.N. soldier in Croatia.

He speaks English sprinkled with American slang he picked up on NATO maneuvers, but with an English officer's accent that seems to match his walking stick. ``Turning your cheek is the wrong way down here,'' he says. ``There's a lot of macho bull**** down here and you have to adapt your behavior accordingly.''

The battle at Sapna Finger was an important lesson in what might be in store if a NATO peacekeeping force is sent here.

``The ambush was bad juju on their part. We are not here to take incoming,'' Moller said. ``Fortunately for them, we are not here to get involved either. We could have destroyed all of them and been in Zvornik by morning.''

In setting their ambush, the Serbs had deployed Soviet-made T-55 tanks in fixed positions; they are accustomed to fighting artillery duels against forces with little ability to fire back.

The Danes watched the tanks' infrared searchlights try to find and target their Leopards, but easily stayed out of their sights.

The T-55s were sitting targets, but the U.N. tanks never opened fire against them: under U.N. rules of engagement, they are not allowed to attack Serb tanks unless sensors show that the opposing cannons are warm, meaning that they have recently been fired.

Tank commander Maj. Carsten Rasmussen said the Danes prevailed thanks to superior training, tactics and technology all assets that a NATO peacekeeping force would bring to Bosnia.

Most U.N. troops on peacekeeping duty in Bosnia have been neither as aggressive nor as successful as Nordbat. Although last week U.N. commander General Sir Michael Rose praised the tank action during a visit to Copenhagen, many U.N. officials privately have criticized the Scandinavian troops.

Rose himself has repeatedly turned down their requests for airstrikes when they are attacked by artillery beyond their cannon range. Unless some kind of settlement brings NATO peacekeepers to the country, Moller's dragoons will remain more of an exception than an example.

[ecia81mm]

Spanish leo 2 A4


animated gif(2,36 mb)
http://usuarios.lycos.es/multiuso/leo.gif

[Longbranch]

If it were up to me, I'd take a modern engine, drivetrain and electronics and drop them into one of these…

http://www.worldwar2aces.com/kingtiger20.jpg

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/images/germany/pzkpfw_vi_b_16.jpg

I can't help it, just love the way King Tiger's look.

[Javehn]

So , we are lucky it's not up to you ! ;) :)

[Uninen]

So , we are lucky it's not up to you ! ;) :)

:roll: No offence, bu you have to admit that German ww2 AFV's were marvelous.. :P

And if you want, i can provide you with scores of good links.. :P

[Javehn]

So , we are lucky it's not up to you ! ;) :)

:roll: No offence, bu you have to admit that German ww2 AFV's were marvelous.. :P

And if you want, i can provide you with scores of good links.. :P
Yes , they are .
Link like this : http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/PzVIB/ ?? (that one is on Russian , but many pictures)

[Uninen]

http://afvinteriors.hobbyvista.com/maus/maus1.html <- Insides of Maus! :P

http://www.panzerworld.net/christopher.html <- Some knocked out Panzers, including photos some pics of dead soldiers, that have died a horrible death (as a warning to those with sensitive mind..)

http://www.panzerworld.net/

http://www.waffenhq.de/filme.html <- Here some actual films, like present day Panther that works! :)

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/

--

Those for staters.. maybe theres one that you didnt have? ;)

[marktigger]

i think the main reason for a change is the tank ammo factory has closed because there has been so few orders for 120mm ammo from the UK MoD

[oldsoak]

That is probably true. Unfortunately we no longer have hundreds of 120mm gunned tanks banging away at the ranges and the 120mm rifled gun is not a common beast, at least not in the same way the 105mm L7 or 120mm Rheinmettal is. The other thing is that I get the distinct impression that while the UK is very good in armour technology, its not quite so good at designing projectiles. I'd be glad to be wrong about the projectiles bit though.

["sniper" tom]

Javehn wrote
THE MOUSE ATE THE CAT'
By ROD NORDLAND
c.1994 Newsweek
(Distributed by New York Times Special Features)

TUZLA It was late at night when the Bosnian Serbs began to shell a United Nations observation post called Tango Two in the Sapna Finger, a Muslim-held salient near Tuzla. Danish Lt. Col. Lars Moller of the Nordic Battalion ordered two platoons of his Leopard tanks to charge to the rescue, which was just what the Serbs expected. As the seven tanks reached the foot of Sugarloaf Mountain, the Serbs opened fire with antitank missiles, artillery and machine guns.

``It was an ambush, and a damn good one,'' Colonel Moller said. ``Tango Two was the cheese, and we were the mouse. But this time the mouse ate the cat.''

One Danish platoon took cover behind buildings; the other maneuvered to high ground and counterambushed. When it was over, nine Serb soldiers were dead.

The ``Nordbat'' suffered no casualties. More important, it had done what no other U.N. peacekeepers in Bosnia had done before: strike back at the Serbs with force.

The April 30 battle of the Sapna Finger does not signal a change in U.N. strategy; in fact, U.N. officials in Sarajevo later played down its significance and hinted that Moller's troops had overreacted.

For some, though, it made a deadly point about how Western peacekeepers might fare against a Serb force that until now has had the field to itself.

Confrontation with the Serbs is not in the U.N.'s official playbook. That was clear a few days after the Sapna Finger fight.

When Bosnian Serbs violated their own agreements and blocked a convoy of British peacekeepers on their way to the U.N.-designated ``safe haven'' of Gorazde, the U.N.'s special representative, Yasushi Akashi, cut a deal.

In exchange for letting the U.N. troops go in, he allowed the Serbs to move at least five tanks across the 20-kilometer zone around Sarajevo from which heavy Serb weapons are banned under threat of NATO airstrikes.

The tanks reportedly were redeployed on the Serbs' southern front. Incensed, Bosnian government authorities demanded Akashi's resignation as the top U.N. official in the former Yugoslavia.

Other U.N. officials in Sarajevo tried to cover up the continued presence of 100 Serb soldiers within three kilometers of Gorazde and some heavy weapons within the no-go zone around that city, too, despite NATO's orders that they withdraw or face airstrikes.

In contrast, the Nordic Battalion, drawing on a long history of peacekeeping work by its Danish, Swedish and Norwegian troops, has showed how a tough stance can work in Bosnia.

When Croat troops massacred the villagers of Stupni Do, Nordbat moved in, protecting survivors and preventing further violence against Muslims in the nearby town of Vares. Then, when Muslim troops took Vares, Nordbat intervened to make sure there were no reprisals.

They didn't go looking for a fight at Sapna Finger; the battalion's Tango Two post had been shelled 28 times since February, and their tanks had come under Serb attack nearly a dozen times in a month.

Moller, 40, the battalion's deputy commander and its top tank officer, is a past karate champion; his father was a Danish Resistance fighter in World War II, and his brother is also a U.N. soldier in Croatia.

He speaks English sprinkled with American slang he picked up on NATO maneuvers, but with an English officer's accent that seems to match his walking stick. ``Turning your cheek is the wrong way down here,'' he says. ``There's a lot of macho bull**** down here and you have to adapt your behavior accordingly.''

The battle at Sapna Finger was an important lesson in what might be in store if a NATO peacekeeping force is sent here.

``The ambush was bad juju on their part. We are not here to take incoming,'' Moller said. ``Fortunately for them, we are not here to get involved either. We could have destroyed all of them and been in Zvornik by morning.''

In setting their ambush, the Serbs had deployed Soviet-made T-55 tanks in fixed positions; they are accustomed to fighting artillery duels against forces with little ability to fire back.

The Danes watched the tanks' infrared searchlights try to find and target their Leopards, but easily stayed out of their sights.

The T-55s were sitting targets, but the U.N. tanks never opened fire against them: under U.N. rules of engagement, they are not allowed to attack Serb tanks unless sensors show that the opposing cannons are warm, meaning that they have recently been fired.

Tank commander Maj. Carsten Rasmussen said the Danes prevailed thanks to superior training, tactics and technology all assets that a NATO peacekeeping force would bring to Bosnia.

Most U.N. troops on peacekeeping duty in Bosnia have been neither as aggressive nor as successful as Nordbat. Although last week U.N. commander General Sir Michael Rose praised the tank action during a visit to Copenhagen, many U.N. officials privately have criticized the Scandinavian troops.

Rose himself has repeatedly turned down their requests for airstrikes when they are attacked by artillery beyond their cannon range. Unless some kind of settlement brings NATO peacekeepers to the country, Moller's dragoons will remain more of an exception than an example.

a couple of words : i think UN suck !!
al their rules and stuff , really i think they suck ! would'n want to go on a
mission of Un, knowing that you have to be "killed" to take arms !

[Sorbas2000]

Yup the Challey 2 and Abrams are **** cause not many other countries buy them :roll: , so u can say the same for the Merk4 and the LeClerc and both those are great tanks, but because other countires dont buy them there **** :roll:

You dumbass, Merkava is not for export because Us doesn't allow it. The most equipment of the Merkava is based on US technology. And Leclerc was only sold to the camel drivers. Still doesn't explain, why no other European country is buying Leclerc or Abrams! For example turkey: they know, that germany wouldn't export the Leoprad-2 to Turkey. But the Leopard-2 won the competition. For Leclerc no chance. Can you tell me why?

[oldsoak]

Leclerc is a good tank. Beleive me, the French thought long and hard before they came up with the design. Their plan was to develop and build something at least as good as the leopard 2 series and it can be argued that they succeeded. Anyone who is familiar with the current generation of tanks knows that they are all good. Some might have a better range, more advanced FCS, better cross country speed etc but they are all good. Each tank was designed with the ability to engage and destroy other tanks in battle. Russian tanks were designed to take on and kill NATO tanks and vise versa. Their designers were all competent people who had a good idea of what the enemy could do. Tanks do not always sell on technical merit. There are financial and political considerations. Leclerc is also unlucky in that Leo 2 is a good tank that came on the market first. That does not make leclerc a bad tank, just unlucky.

[Rakki]

Or the French just still suck at driving tanks...

[Operation Ivy]

:cantbeli:

[marktigger]

challanger suffers from the fiasaco of challenger 1 at CAT.
Leopards are fairly quick to be delivered from German reserve stocks.
The Abrahams is pushed to countries allied to the USA and Political pressure has been brought to bear in the past.

[Javehn]

Yup the Challey 2 and Abrams are **** cause not many other countries buy them :roll: , so u can say the same for the Merk4 and the LeClerc and both those are great tanks, but because other countires dont buy them there **** :roll:

You dumbass, Merkava is not for export because Us doesn't allow it. The most equipment of the Merkava is based on US technology. And Leclerc was only sold to the camel drivers. Still doesn't explain, why no other European country is buying Leclerc or Abrams! For example turkey: they know, that germany wouldn't export the Leoprad-2 to Turkey. But the Leopard-2 won the competition. For Leclerc no chance. Can you tell me why?

Is it hurts to you that you are so damn stupid ???

[jamesp]

Is it hurts to you that you are so damn stupid ???


Just ignore him. Isn't this the same guy who said that all Russian Paratroopers are gay clochards? Goes to show how much of a cockhead he is.

[Sorbas2000]

Is it hurts to you that you are so damn stupid ???


Just ignore him. Isn't this the same guy who said that all Russian Paratroopers are gay clochards? Goes to show how much of a cockhead he is.

Untrue, I said, that on ONE picture russian paras looked like guy...on other pictures russion soldiers looked like clochards...it could be seen in those photos!

[Sorbas2000]

Yup the Challey 2 and Abrams are **** cause not many other countries buy them :roll: , so u can say the same for the Merk4 and the LeClerc and both those are great tanks, but because other countires dont buy them there **** :roll:

You dumbass, Merkava is not for export because Us doesn't allow it. The most equipment of the Merkava is based on US technology. And Leclerc was only sold to the camel drivers. Still doesn't explain, why no other European country is buying Leclerc or Abrams! For example turkey: they know, that germany wouldn't export the Leoprad-2 to Turkey. But the Leopard-2 won the competition. For Leclerc no chance. Can you tell me why?

Is it hurts to you that you are so damn stupid ???

I just wonder, why you don't answer with arguments. What is it again, that you just attack me, without saying something to what I've written? What I wrote is true: Merkava isn't for export (BTW from my point of view Merkava is one of the best tanks). Until now Leclerc was only sold to UAE whereas Leopard-2 won every MBT competition in the last time.

- Greece (Leopard-2A6 HEL)
- Sweden (Strv-122)
- Switzerland (Leopard-2A4)
- Finland (Leopard-2A4)
- Netherlands (Leopard-2A5 / A6)
- Spain (Leopard-2A4)
- Turkey (not delivered)
- Denmark (Leopard-2A4, updated to A6)
- Poland (Leopard-2A4)
- Austria (Leopard-2A4)

[Operation Ivy]

All those countries just have bad taste ;)

[Javehn]

because how the hell is the fact that no one buys the tank , have to do with the fact that tank is no good . Lecklerk is one of the best tanks in the world , and probably is the best in some areas , but no one buys it . Challenger 2 , Merkava (it has nothing absolutly nothing to do with US system ) . Did you thought that 1)Countries preffer to keep their best production to themself 2) There is no market for the tank because of political or economical reasons ; And it has nothing to do how much tanks used in the world . One of the used tanks in the world about now is T-55 . So , you saying it is the best tank in the world ?
Or perhaps it is the fact that Germany "contributed" it's Leo to every country that was on the way between it and Soviet Union, or art of NATO ? How come Poland got them for almost free ?

So , in conclussion , you are still an idiot.

[Sorbas2000]

because how the hell is the fact that no one buys the tank , have to do with the fact that tank is no good . Lecklerk is one of the best tanks in the world , and probably is the best in some areas , but no one buys it . Challenger 2 , Merkava (it has nothing absolutly nothing to do with US system ) . Did you thought that 1)Countries preffer to keep their best production to themself 2) There is no market for the tank because of political or economical reasons ; And it has nothing to do how much tanks used in the world . One of the used tanks in the world about now is T-55 . So , you saying it is the best tank in the world ?
Or perhaps it is the fact that Germany "contributed" it's Leo to every country that was on the way between it and Soviet Union, or art of NATO ? How come Poland got them for almost free ?

So , in conclussion , you are still an idiot.

You have to inform yourself about Merkava. The gun-technology was given by US and it's a German orign. A lot of the electronic equipment as well as GD 883 V-12 engine is US based. And at least, most money for development and production was given by US military aid. For that reason Israel is not "allowed" to export American technology and to amke money with help of US military money aid!

"Did you thought that 1)Countries preffer to keep their best production to themself." Oh yes, and thatfor Israel sells every ****ing little piece
of **** they produce (Spike, Arrow, Shipon, Galil, weopon modernizations, etc.) exepting Merkava!??? And France is pushing to sell Leclerc, without success! :bash:

T-55 WAS one of the best tanks when it was developed. In the early 50ies this MBT had many new design and combat features (armour, speed, etc.).

Sweden, Spain, Netherlands, Denmark and Finland didn't get Leopard-2 for free. They all have chosen not the cheapest available tank. Leclerc is a good tank no question, but no country has selected it.

Just because you don't like Germans or German technology, please don't be a fool and rude![/i]

[oldsoak]

Maybe the Israelis can correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that Merkava 4 is currently an Israel only product, whereas Merkava 3 is availiable for export. The gun used on Merk 4 was developed from that used in the Merk 3 and incorporates an autoloader that I dont believe the US or Germany have at present. The armour itself appears to be similar in concept to that used on leclerk - its modular, capable of defeating all current AT rounds and accounts and consists of both "hard" and "soft" elements - composition is of course a secret, but the Israelis would have had exposure to Chobham type armour - either via the US or Germany/UK. The engine is actually an MTU built under licence in the US. The Israelis could, if they chose, supply an export version of the Merk 4 using third party components without the US being able to veto export but I suspect they have their own order book to fill first. Winning a major contract to sell the Merk 4 would push back the re-equipment of the IDF.

rgds

[Javehn]

It would be my privilage to kick you up your stupid butt , Zurna and humiliate you . Here we go .


You have to inform yourself about Merkava. The gun-technology was given by US and it's a German orign.A lot of the electronic equipment as well as GD 883 V-12 engine is US based. And at least, most money for development and production was given by US military aid. For that reason Israel is not "allowed" to export American technology and to amke money with help of US military money aid!


First of all , you are defenetly the last being on this entire universe to tell me to inform myself better about Merkava . That's an incredible insulence .
If allready , the GD-883 is a german mottor (Leo2A6 mottor is almost the same ) , and US manufacturing them . And second , you are taking all Merkavas together and comparing what they have that's not Israeli . So , you taking mottor from Merkava 4 , You taking the gun from Merkava 1 and 2 , that's manufactured in Israel you know , with US licence . "A lot of electronic equipment" from US equals zero , nada , non . Early Warning ? Elop . Optics ? Elop-Elbit . Nigh vision ? Elop.Controllers ? Elop-Elbit .Oh , FCS ??? ELOP-ELBIT . Merk 3 /4 gun - all Israeli IMI , no connection to Reinmetahl , better gun , sorry Zurna . Perhaps the only bleedy thing that isn't Israeli on Merkava 3/4 , is an engine . No "electronics" , no "gun technology" . By the way , did you know that USA using our tank shells ?
By the way , doesn't your Bulgary getting an aid money from German ?? Correct me if i am wrong . What great military products are comming from Bulgary ? I had no intention to start this , but if you insist Zurna , so be it . How is your financial status over your place this days ? Pretty ****y , ha ? Strange...

And at last , you are trying to proove that we can't sell because of US components ? Well , sorry to inform you Zurna , but Merkava 1/2 mottors are AVDS-1790-model Teledain (as i said , the only freekin part that isn't Israeli (well , perhaps some nuts and balts and shaybas and stuff ) , something very like with M60 mottors , and they don't have a problem to sell it what so ever . Nopi . Infact , what mottor used in Sabre tank that was supposed to be salled to Turkey ?? Yes , mottor in use of Merkava 2 . Something ain't right here , Zurnasan . US technology is salled . USA is conserned of Israeli selling reverse US military technology to some strangy countries indeed , but Merkava has nothing to do with it , kapish ?? The half bleedy word have this stinkin copy of M68 gun , and Teledain engines . So there is probably other reason , yes ? And anyways , just for you , there is no problem with selling Merkava 1 i bellieve .


Did you thought that 1)Countries preffer to keep their best production to themself." Oh yes, and thatfor Israel sells every f*** little piece
of **** they produce (Spike, Arrow, Shipon, Galil, weopon modernizations, etc.) exepting Merkava!??? And France is pushing to sell Leclerc, without success!

What is your point , psico bastard ? And sence when Israel is selling Arrow ? You must be informed pretty well , it's a co-production of Israel and USA , and USA offcorse will benefit from it . Galil i think i don't have to explain it to you (or perhaps i do , sence you are Zorba2000) , weapon modernisation ? What's your point here ? Those have not one secret system .Just for you again , by the way , some systems that used in Merkava tanks are salled , and even better systems . But some system ...


T-55 WAS one of the best tanks when it was developed. In the early 50ies this MBT had many new design and combat features (armour, speed, etc.).

Sweden, Spain, Netherlands, Denmark and Finland didn't get Leopard-2 for free. They all have chosen not the cheapest available tank. Leclerc is a good tank no question, but no country has selected it.

So , the fact that T-55 is used THOSE DAYS in different countries meaning it is one of the best tanks in the world as of today ? Russian technology is good , but not that good . But in your words , as many people use it , that mean it is the best . Very very interesting thought , Zorba . But perhaps it wasn't good arguement from my side , sence you talking about the bying moment . I will give you the bennefit of the doubt .
Now , unlike you i know pretty much the abbilities of Leclerc (again , i am not expert or anything on that matter ) , and for it's technical data it is one of the best . Why Leclerc is in ****y status (or GIAT firm on that matter ? ) Heard about Status Quo , bitch ? Some history info . You know when first Leo 2 was out ? 1977 . You know when first Leclerc was out ? 1989 . German salled to everybody in the NATO it's Leo1 (Turkey for example ) , and it's Leo2 . in 1982 Leo2 started to enter in Netherland and Swiss army . You know which tanks they replaced ? French tanks . French AMX-13 . British tanks , Centurion (an excellent battle warrior) . Everybody wanted to renew their old tanks , and Germany just had the best time to have new Leo 2 . It salled the tanks , it salled the Lisence to produce them , it gave them free . Right time and right place . Challenger 1 is hit the fan in 1987 , and first of all British Army had to supply themselfes . They missed the opportunnity . You should now that German tryed to push hard , and give British Army it's Leo2 , but Brits declined , and rightfully so . They choosed again on Challenger , this time Challenger 2 that hit the fans in 1992, and it was prooved as an outstanding tank .
And it has very little to do with "everybody buying it , so it is the best" . The best is kipped by owner you know , like USSR did with it's tanks (never released new tanks to anyone , only previos generation ) . You beloved Leo was pushed to everybody , like a chip dope , when everybody wanted to renew their old tanks . Leo2 is a great and outstanding tank , but so is the Challi and Leclerc and many other tanks (and one tank to rule them all ) .

And , you still a retard , Sorba . You trying to proove me something ?? You only prooving me you are retard time after time , not that you are serious person . Here , i gave you what i am thinking , masturbate on it , and get lost . More i am not prooving nothing to you . And last thing :

Just because you don't like Germans or German technology, please don't be a fool and rude

You are a idiot , and a jackass . I ussualy show respect to people that deserve it , and you don't . Next time , do a better research , and don't pretend to be 36 years old . I don't have not a single problem with German people or German technology, i have a big problem with you . And that's it .

Last , for people to learn and not bable :
Information About Leclerc beast : http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/leclerc.htm
Information about Challenger1 beast : http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/challenger1.htm
Information about Challenger2 beast : http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/chall2.htm
Information about Leo2 beast : http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/leopard2.htm
And information about beast of the beasts : http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/merkava/MerkavaMk4.html

Learn something Zorba .

[marktigger]

has leopard 2 ever been in a tank battle or is its abilities still alledged and not Proven?

[Javehn]

I know Leo 1 in Bosnia , in previous page , about Leo2 , that's allready question to Leo2 tankers , maybe perhaps as part of KFOR , that saw limited combat .And they saw a lot of combat in "steelbeasts" , the game . :) Best simulator in the entire world .

[marktigger]

so never on the scale of Challey 2 or Abrhams in the Gulf so its unproven.

[Javehn]

The systems are just fine . And it doesn't matter if the tank saw combat or not , anyway the tank manufactury trends are to cooperate with each others , and influence on each others . The systems of Leo2 and Challe 2 are pretty much on the same weight , and it's only up to the tank crues themself the abbility to fight good or bad . US army had it's last major combat combining armor in WW2 , and it worked pretty well on GW1 (that's not so good analogy, but you get the point ) .

3-rd Generation tanks are pretty much the same , plus minus some small developments , and the last words is the human element in the tank , the most important one . As it's the most important resource in every other place in the army . It doesn't helps you , if your tank have X14 optic sight ,when your gunner is half blind , or have his hands shaking .
That's one of the reasons why Tank Vs. Tank discussions are so damn redicoulous , and could only be supported only by real very very very good experts on every tanks aspect , or people that have no idea what so ever about tanks .

Forgot to Add : Damn good pictures , Ivy !!

[tooms]

something to notice, the Leclerc tank is VERY expensive and there was a debate on it in france because the budget to buy them increased during the program. the difference of price between leclerc and Leo 2A6 is surely not as big if we talk of performances

we must develop common tanks in europe etc

[perdurabo]

we must develop common tanks in europe etc
Yep i'm all for it :) and in next 100yrs all eurpoe should make one big happy family :) what about common language?:) I think we should take commands from germans, love language from frech.. and Polish contribution should be at first place word KURWA :) it's great word you can use it as ****.. as bitch and just as dot or full-stop :)

[tooms]

we must develop common tanks in europe etc
Yep i'm all for it :) and in next 100yrs all eurpoe should make one big happy family :) what about common language?:) I think we should take commands from germans, love language from frech.. and Polish contribution should be at first place word KURWA :) it's great word you can use it as f***.. as bitch and just as dot or full-stop :)


:hug:

[Groove]

a slight "OT" question:

Did any modern MBT - american, russian, israelian, german or france build in a full scale operation / battlefield against EQUAL tanks ?

So for example: Iraq would have the latest russian MBT in Desert Combat and they would fight against the latest M1A2 ?

Or did the latest Merkava fight against any other top-notch MBT ? No im dont talking about freakin Arabs with Mines or RPG-7s.

Pls dont think i want to start a flame war. Im just asking myself because some guys think that a Platoon which destroys some old t-72 in a stand-off combat have fhought in "real" combat.

I would like to see a Leopard2 vs a M1 platoon. Just hypothatic...

Because for me its not a "real" fight to kill some Tanks which cant do a ****. I know that is war but its not a serious threat for a M1A2...

Greetings

Groove

[Sorbas2000]

It would be my privilage to kick you up your stupid butt , Zurna and humiliate you . Here we go .


You have to inform yourself about Merkava. The gun-technology was given by US and it's a German orign.A lot of the electronic equipment as well as GD 883 V-12 engine is US based. And at least, most money for development and production was given by US military aid. For that reason Israel is not "allowed" to export American technology and to amke money with help of US military money aid!


First of all , you are defenetly the last being on this entire universe to tell me to inform myself better about Merkava . That's an incredible insulence .
If allready , the GD-883 is a german mottor (Leo2A6 mottor is almost the same ) , and US manufacturing them . And second , you are taking all Merkavas together and comparing what they have that's not Israeli . So , you taking mottor from Merkava 4 , You taking the gun from Merkava 1 and 2 , that's manufactured in Israel you know , with US licence . "A lot of electronic equipment" from US equals zero , nada , non . Early Warning ? Elop . Optics ? Elop-Elbit . Nigh vision ? Elop.Controllers ? Elop-Elbit .Oh , FCS ??? ELOP-ELBIT . Merk 3 /4 gun - all Israeli IMI , no connection to Reinmetahl , better gun , sorry Zurna . Perhaps the only bleedy thing that isn't Israeli on Merkava 3/4 , is an engine . No "electronics" , no "gun technology" . By the way , did you know that USA using our tank shells ?
By the way , doesn't your Bulgary getting an aid money from German ?? Correct me if i am wrong . What great military products are comming from Bulgary ? I had no intention to start this , but if you insist Zurna , so be it . How is your financial status over your place this days ? Pretty ****y , ha ? Strange...

And at last , you are trying to proove that we can't sell because of US components ? Well , sorry to inform you Zurna , but Merkava 1/2 mottors are AVDS-1790-model Teledain (as i said , the only freekin part that isn't Israeli (well , perhaps some nuts and balts and shaybas and stuff ) , something very like with M60 mottors , and they don't have a problem to sell it what so ever . Nopi . Infact , what mottor used in Sabre tank that was supposed to be salled to Turkey ?? Yes , mottor in use of Merkava 2 . Something ain't right here , Zurnasan . US technology is salled . USA is conserned of Israeli selling reverse US military technology to some strangy countries indeed , but Merkava has nothing to do with it , kapish ?? The half bleedy word have this stinkin copy of M68 gun , and Teledain engines . So there is probably other reason , yes ? And anyways , just for you , there is no problem with selling Merkava 1 i bellieve .


Did you thought that 1)Countries preffer to keep their best production to themself." Oh yes, and thatfor Israel sells every f*** little piece
of **** they produce (Spike, Arrow, Shipon, Galil, weopon modernizations, etc.) exepting Merkava!??? And France is pushing to sell Leclerc, without success!

What is your point , psico bastard ? And sence when Israel is selling Arrow ? You must be informed pretty well , it's a co-production of Israel and USA , and USA offcorse will benefit from it . Galil i think i don't have to explain it to you (or perhaps i do , sence you are Zorba2000) , weapon modernisation ? What's your point here ? Those have not one secret system .Just for you again , by the way , some systems that used in Merkava tanks are salled , and even better systems . But some system ...


T-55 WAS one of the best tanks when it was developed. In the early 50ies this MBT had many new design and combat features (armour, speed, etc.).

Sweden, Spain, Netherlands, Denmark and Finland didn't get Leopard-2 for free. They all have chosen not the cheapest available tank. Leclerc is a good tank no question, but no country has selected it.

So , the fact that T-55 is used THOSE DAYS in different countries meaning it is one of the best tanks in the world as of today ? Russian technology is good , but not that good . But in your words , as many people use it , that mean it is the best . Very very interesting thought , Zorba . But perhaps it wasn't good arguement from my side , sence you talking about the bying moment . I will give you the bennefit of the doubt .
Now , unlike you i know pretty much the abbilities of Leclerc (again , i am not expert or anything on that matter ) , and for it's technical data it is one of the best . Why Leclerc is in ****y status (or GIAT firm on that matter ? ) Heard about Status Quo , bitch ? Some history info . You know when first Leo 2 was out ? 1977 . You know when first Leclerc was out ? 1989 . German salled to everybody in the NATO it's Leo1 (Turkey for example ) , and it's Leo2 . in 1982 Leo2 started to enter in Netherland and Swiss army . You know which tanks they replaced ? French tanks . French AMX-13 . British tanks , Centurion (an excellent battle warrior) . Everybody wanted to renew their old tanks , and Germany just had the best time to have new Leo 2 . It salled the tanks , it salled the Lisence to produce them , it gave them free . Right time and right place . Challenger 1 is hit the fan in 1987 , and first of all British Army had to supply themselfes . They missed the opportunnity . You should now that German tryed to push hard , and give British Army it's Leo2 , but Brits declined , and rightfully so . They choosed again on Challenger , this time Challenger 2 that hit the fans in 1992, and it was prooved as an outstanding tank .
And it has very little to do with "everybody buying it , so it is the best" . The best is kipped by owner you know , like USSR did with it's tanks (never released new tanks to anyone , only previos generation ) . You beloved Leo was pushed to everybody , like a chip dope , when everybody wanted to renew their old tanks . Leo2 is a great and outstanding tank , but so is the Challi and Leclerc and many other tanks (and one tank to rule them all ) .

And , you still a retard , Sorba . You trying to proove me something ?? You only prooving me you are retard time after time , not that you are serious person . Here , i gave you what i am thinking , masturbate on it , and get lost . More i am not prooving nothing to you . And last thing :

Just because you don't like Germans or German technology, please don't be a fool and rude

You are a idiot , and a jackass . I ussualy show respect to people that deserve it , and you don't . Next time , do a better research , and don't pretend to be 36 years old . I don't have not a single problem with German people or German technology, i have a big problem with you . And that's it .

Last , for people to learn and not bable :
Information About Leclerc beast : http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/leclerc.htm
Information about Challenger1 beast : http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/challenger1.htm
Information about Challenger2 beast : http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/chall2.htm
Information about Leo2 beast : http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/leopard2.htm
And information about beast of the beasts : http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/merkava/MerkavaMk4.html

Learn something Zorba .

You are a wanker. Leclerc was introduced 1991. Since then only UAE bought this tank...and they are pretty unhappy with that deal. GIAT lost 1.4 billion USD with that deal. All tank deals of the nearest past (Netherlands, Sweden, Greece, Denmark, Turkey) were based on new Leopard-2A5/6 in competition with Challenger and Leclerc....who won!?

Whow is finacing Schlomo's army with 3.8 billion USD anually? For now I can't find the source where I have read about that matter concerning "Israel is not allowed to sell Merkava tanks".

[oldsoak]

I dont think you can argue that one tank is better than another on sales. With all due respect to the UAE, I would want to see what they were dissatisfied with before I could comment. I have seen a fair bit of french technology and I would always rate them highly. I think what is significant is that the Israelis, the British and the Americans have not bought Leopards - which they could have done -, but have stuck with their own designs which have performed well in combat. Had the British come back from GW1 and bought the Leopard 2, I would be very convinced as to its superiority, but they didnt and I'm not convinced that its any great improvement over the Merk 4, Leclerc, Abrams, Chally 2 etc. Yes its a very good tank but they are all good.

[Operation Ivy]

Thank you oldsoak :D

Sorbas another reason why many countires dont buy the LeClerc is the price there 7mill a piece(think some1 stated that) while an Abrams Chally and Leo are about 4-5mill. So that right there is proably a huge reason why most of the countires in Europe have the Leo.

And yes please show me reports saying that the UAE is unhappy with the LeClerc :|

[Javehn]

You are a wanker. Leclerc was introduced 1991. Since then only UAE bought this tank...and they are pretty unhappy with that deal. GIAT lost 1.4 billion USD with that deal. All tank deals of the nearest past (Netherlands, Sweden, Greece, Denmark, Turkey) were based on new Leopard-2A5/6 in competition with Challenger and Leclerc....who won!?

You come back for second ? I said i have no bussiness continue talking to you , but you insist .

Well , first of all , let's start that i am not a wanker , i am tanker . Who are you , luyno glava ? When you post , you shaming your country . You understand that in no way you know better then me about tanks , or you don't ? I see you don't .

In the begining of 1989 first party of Leclerc tanks were ordered by French Army , 16 tanks . So , what does it tell you , **** for brains ? That they were allready a full working Leclerc in 1989 .
In 1991 they were entered French Army (first shipment of 16 Leclerc) . And what do you tried to proove me with this ? That the Leclerc came out to market even more after the Leo 2 ? You contradicting what your trying to proove from the start . And even here you wrong .

About the second part of your statement , i thought i made it pretty clear to you , but then again , it's you . Status Quo , again . All those countries allready bought Leo before .
You have any idea what that means to pass from one tank to another in some army ?? Apparantly not . There are teaching platoons , that packed with Leo tanks . There are teaching schools , commanders schools and officers schools , that learning to operate on Leo tank . So , to bring a entirely new type of tank to an army , you have to create : New teaching platoons with new tanks ; New instructors ; New teaching matterial ; To buy New Tank simulators ; Renew the tactic according to abbilities of the new tank . It's much easier for army to buy 50 more Leo's if they have it allready , then 50 Leclerc .
THAT'S WHY ALL OF THOSE COUNTRIES KEEP BUYING LEOPARD , AND NOT OTHER TANKS . Also the fact that Leclerc is very costing tank , thanks to it's outstanding electronic abbilities , can detear some potential customers .

You also keep repeating about the damn competitions . Well , you know that UAE didn't buyed the Leclercs by a sudden decision . They held the precios competition you not stoping to talk about . Sweden had the same competition , and buy Leopards . Everyone buys what is best for him from economic , political , and other reasons . Leclerc was better for a desert , and UAE could afford to buy them . Sweden buyed Leo in their competition , sence it was the only tank presented , that could cross rivers when tottaly submerged (and again , the fact that German pushed their tanks hard , like lowering the price of it ) .

PUT THIS INTO YOUR DUMB HEAD . Apparantly you have no idea how it works in the world , but you still insist . Better for me to humiliate you .


Whow is finacing Schlomo's army with 3.8 billion USD anually? For now I can't find the source where I have read about that matter concerning "Israel is not allowed to sell Merkava tanks".


I don't want to even enter with this to you , you allready prooved that you don't deserve any type of serious debate . I thought i allready answered to your claims , but you are comming back for second .

And now that's really last post from me to you . Where do you get your information , i don't know , but at list read it to the end , you "36 years old former military graduant" morron .

[soma]

One r in moron.

[RomanS]

Russian Tanks are the best in the Universe

that is it to it

[perdurabo]

Russian Tanks are the best in the Universe

that is it to it
no no permski polish tanks are the best! rofl (because they are upgraded russian rofl witch are second the best)

[RomanS]

lol

[mack pl]

PT91 HARD Rulezzz woot

[Sorbas2000]

You are a wanker. Leclerc was introduced 1991. Since then only UAE bought this tank...and they are pretty unhappy with that deal. GIAT lost 1.4 billion USD with that deal. All tank deals of the nearest past (Netherlands, Sweden, Greece, Denmark, Turkey) were based on new Leopard-2A5/6 in competition with Challenger and Leclerc....who won!?

You come back for second ? I said i have no bussiness continue talking to you , but you insist .

Well , first of all , let's start that i am not a wanker , i am tanker . Who are you , luyno glava ? When you post , you shaming your country . You understand that in no way you know better then me about tanks , or you don't ? I see you don't .

In the begining of 1989 first party of Leclerc tanks were ordered by French Army , 16 tanks . So , what does it tell you , **** for brains ? That they were allready a full working Leclerc in 1989 .
In 1991 they were entered French Army (first shipment of 16 Leclerc) . And what do you tried to proove me with this ? That the Leclerc came out to market even more after the Leo 2 ? You contradicting what your trying to proove from the start . And even here you wrong .

About the second part of your statement , i thought i made it pretty clear to you , but then again , it's you . Status Quo , again . All those countries allready bought Leo before .
You have any idea what that means to pass from one tank to another in some army ?? Apparantly not . There are teaching platoons , that packed with Leo tanks . There are teaching schools , commanders schools and officers schools , that learning to operate on Leo tank . So , to bring a entirely new type of tank to an army , you have to create : New teaching platoons with new tanks ; New instructors ; New teaching matterial ; To buy New Tank simulators ; Renew the tactic according to abbilities of the new tank . It's much easier for army to buy 50 more Leo's if they have it allready , then 50 Leclerc .
THAT'S WHY ALL OF THOSE COUNTRIES KEEP BUYING LEOPARD , AND NOT OTHER TANKS . Also the fact that Leclerc is very costing tank , thanks to it's outstanding electronic abbilities , can detear some potential customers .

You also keep repeating about the damn competitions . Well , you know that UAE didn't buyed the Leclercs by a sudden decision . They held the precios competition you not stoping to talk about . Sweden had the same competition , and buy Leopards . Everyone buys what is best for him from economic , political , and other reasons . Leclerc was better for a desert , and UAE could afford to buy them . Sweden buyed Leo in their competition , sence it was the only tank presented , that could cross rivers when tottaly submerged (and again , the fact that German pushed their tanks hard , like lowering the price of it ) .

PUT THIS INTO YOUR DUMB HEAD . Apparantly you have no idea how it works in the world , but you still insist . Better for me to humiliate you .


Whow is finacing Schlomo's army with 3.8 billion USD anually? For now I can't find the source where I have read about that matter concerning "Israel is not allowed to sell Merkava tanks".


I don't want to even enter with this to you , you allready prooved that you don't deserve any type of serious debate . I thought i allready answered to your claims , but you are comming back for second .

And now that's really last post from me to you . Where do you get your information , i don't know , but at list read it to the end , you "36 years old former military graduant" morron .

This debate is boring me, Aljosha Schlomo. The fact, that one country bought 25 years ago Leopard-1 is the reason to buy new Leopard-2A5? Ok, if you believe so, do it!


In 1991 they were entered French Army (first shipment of 16 Leclerc) . And what do you tried to proove me with this ? That the Leclerc came out to market even more after the Leo 2 ?

Are you stupid or what? I was saying, that Leclerc had have 13 years to get some exports...but only UAV have bought Leclerc.


PUT THIS INTO YOUR DUMB HEAD . Apparantly you have no idea how it works in the world , but you still insist . Better for me to humiliate you .

Ah, but you have got any idea?


I don't want to even enter with this to you , you allready prooved that you don't deserve any type of serious debate . I thought i allready answered to your claims , but you are comming back for second .

No, you ignore the facts. I've said, that Israel is not allowed for several reasons to export Merkava tanks. One reason is, that US finances Schlomo's army with 3,8 billion USD annually and with technology transfers. But you are ignoring it. Maybe you are yet not enough years in Israel, where you from before...Irkutsk or Almaty?


And now that's really last post from me to you . Where do you get your information , i don't know , but at list read it to the end , you "36 years old former military graduant" morron

Shut up and don't boring me anymore...I allways had respect to Israeli people (like our country also in WW II did) but a former little Irkutsk Schlomo distroys everything. I dlja etogo, maltshi Isaak i poletij obratno v Irkutsku.

[Javehn]

Sorbas . I gave you all the information you need . I talled you i ain't gonna argue with you anymore .


I allways had respect to Israeli people (like our country also in WW II did) but a former little Irkutsk Schlomo distroys everything. I dlja etogo, maltshi Isaak i poletij obratno v Irkutsku.

Zabey yebalo , Bulgarskaya Ikra sranaya . You have respect for Israeli people , and that's why you call IDF Shlomo's Army ? Before You having respect for someone else have respect for yourlsef , and your country , you shamed it allready as much possible as you can . This "boy from Irkuts" have served as a tanker in IDF , and you trying to TEACH ME ABOUT OUR TANKS ????

Moderators would know what to do here , see you in hell .

[IDFM203]

To Sorbas2000


Ok a few things. First what’s all this Schlomo thing. I mean is that supposed to make us what?? :roll: I find it funny that you think that might annoy us rofl

Secondly the U.S. aid to Israel is less then 3.8 a year…..just to make that clear.

The Markava has most if its technology based on Israeli designs and on Israeli homegrown R&D that was mostly financed with Israeli funds.

Israel receives around 3.2 billion a year and it spends in total anywhere from 9 to 11 billion a year on defense (it fluctuates from year to year as to how its from 9 to 13 billion a year)

As for the debate between you and Javehn, he can defend himself very well, all I would say on his behalf is that he was a tanker in the IDF and so no matter what you think about him or about Jews or about schlomo’s as you call us, he earned the right to an expert and knowledgeable opinion on what he talks about.

Did you serve in the tank corp in your military, I am just curious?

Have you even been in the military?

Anyways despite all this, I wish you shalom :D

Sincerely Schlomo ;) :D

[Sorbas2000]

To Sorbas2000


Ok a few things. First what’s all this Schlomo thing. I mean is that supposed to make us what?? :roll: I find it funny that you think that might annoy us rofl

Secondly the U.S. aid to Israel is less then 3.8 a year…..just to make that clear.

The Markava has most if its technology based on Israeli designs and on Israeli homegrown R&D that was mostly financed with Israeli funds.

Israel receives around 3.2 billion a year and it spends in total anywhere from 9 to 11 billion a year on defense (it fluctuates from year to year as to how its from 9 to 13 billion a year)

As for the debate between you and Javehn, he can defend himself very well, all I would say on his behalf is that he was a tanker in the IDF and so no matter what you think about him or about Jews or about schlomo’s as you call us, he earned the right to an expert and knowledgeable opinion on what he talks about.

Did you serve in the tank corp in your military, I am just curious?

Have you even been in the military?

Anyways despite all this, I wish you shalom :D

Sincerely Schlomo ;) :D

I was not generally meant to all Israelis Schlomo. As I said, I am with full respect to the people in Israel, but your russian friend is making me angry.

By the way, only because he served as a tanker it doesn't make him an expert for all tanks all around the world!

It doesn't matter if the US aid is 3 or 3,8 billion USD...US aid is one third of Israel's military budget and without these US spendings Israel wouldn't be on the map. For that it makes a lot of matter, if US allows Israel to export some of their high-tech weapons, which are paid by US monetary and technology aid!!!

I don't know how much of Merkava-4 is an all Israeli product. Maybe I am wrong, but as far as I know, development of first Merkava tanks was made under US support. Maybe Merkava-4 is based on technologies from fírst Merkva series that are based on US technologies? All I know is that Merkava is not for export and for me there is no reason why only Merkava is not sold abroad. I don't believe in the fact, that Israel keeps it's best weapon for their own. It makes no sense, because Merkava could be sold downgraded as Russia or US did.


Did you serve in the tank corp in your military, I am just curious?
Have you even been in the military?

In my country it was like in Israel...you don't have the choice to serve or not to serve. :lol: I was serving in the military, not as a tanker. I didn't wanted to get shoot by an cheap ATGM in a steel beast! :lol: :lol: :lol:

FYI, I was serving in the army staff at information branch and was listening to our Greek and Turkish NATO neighbours. That is all I can say about my military time.

[Sorbas2000]

Sorbas . I gave you all the information you need . I talled you i ain't gonna argue with you anymore .

[Zabey yebalo , Bulgarskaya Ikra sranaya . You have respect for Israeli people , and that's why you call IDF Shlomo's Army ? Before You having respect for someone else have respect for yourlsef , and your country , you shamed it allready as much possible as you can . This "boy from Irkuts" have served as a tanker in IDF , and you trying to TEACH ME ABOUT OUR TANKS ????
Moderators would know what to do here , see you in hell .

blablablablabla...why don't you call me an Nazi? I mean, I have said something against Israel and I have annoyed you with SCHLOMO...so, like Israelis every time do, you could call me an Nazi or Antisemit. But as you said, "Moderators would know what to do here , see you in hell". Choose the easiest way! Can't see you in hell...I will look down on you to hell from heaven! :bash:

[Falco]

Sorbas . I gave you all the information you need . I talled you i ain't gonna argue with you anymore .

[Zabey yebalo , Bulgarskaya Ikra sranaya . You have respect for Israeli people , and that's why you call IDF Shlomo's Army ? Before You having respect for someone else have respect for yourlsef , and your country , you shamed it allready as much possible as you can . This "boy from Irkuts" have served as a tanker in IDF , and you trying to TEACH ME ABOUT OUR TANKS ????
Moderators would know what to do here , see you in hell .

blablablablabla...why don't you call me an Nazi? I mean, I have said something against Israel and I have annoyed you with SCHLOMO...so, like Israelis every time do, you could call me an Nazi or Antisemit. But as you said, "Moderators would know what to do here , see you in hell". Choose the easiest way! Can't see you in hell...I will look down on you to hell from heaven! :bash:

Chill out dude

[Javehn]

Please , whould someone reason with this piece of idiot . First of all , we all understand that you are not 36 years old , nor served in the army , we understand that with your posts . Second , you heart me very deeply . I was into tanks long before your mama and papa thought about having you , tanks were my soul sence i was young (even younger then you today ) . I served in tank corps , and now piece of junior prick like you come and insult me , teaching me about tanks ?? ABOUT MERKAVA TANKS YOU TEACHING ME ??
And you wondering the reason i am so against you ? What the hell that Anti Semite bable has to do with it ? You are really childish idiot . And aren't you the one throwing racist remarks on my face ??
Moderators shure will know what to do with you .
Sorry , but i have to add this : You are ****ing idiot . I bet you are allready used to hear this , even in your young age .

[Sorbas2000]

First of all , we all understand that you are not 36 years old , nor served in the army , we understand that with your posts .

I would be happy if you are right and I would have 10 or 12 years more to be younger, but sorry, I don't have. :bash:

I just wonder, how you could be in IDF tank corps, and mostly: when? I mean you said, that it was long before my parents even knew that someday I will be!? Are you one of those russian emigrants from the early 70ies?

[Argyll]

Lets get this back on Topic,and please refrain from Personal insults,any more like this and I'll lock the thread.

[IDFM203]

I was not generally meant to all Israelis Schlomo. As I said, I am with full respect to the people in Israel, but your russian friend is making me angry. .
ok I can understand how your both at each other, however calling him schlomo, to me makes me laugh rofl , I mean if your angry then use those usual anti Semitic remarks ;) :roll: , cause schlomo as some insult is just weak ;)

And as for you having nothing against all Israelis well perhaps, though it doesn’t look that way for you tried to use your word scholom as some insult or something like that in general.(which its not but you didn’t know that)

I mean if you have a problem with Javehn then call him specifically something and not “schlomo’s army” or things like that which show you do have some issues with Israelis in general.

Anyways I don’t care if you do, just don’t say you don’t when you have clearly shown that you do in fact have some.

It would be nice though if you kept those thoughts out of this forum for it doesn’t lead to any productive discussions………oh well :roll:



By the way, only because he served as a tanker it doesn't make him an expert for all tanks all around the world! . well first of all it does make him a expert on the markava.

Secondly when you are a tanker you learn about other tanks for obvious reasons.




It doesn't matter if the US aid is 3 or 3,8 billion USD...US aid is one third of Israel's military budget and without these US spendings Israel wouldn't be on the map. For that it makes a lot of matter, if US allows Israel to export some of their high-tech weapons, which are paid by US monetary and technology aid!!! hmm so Israel defeated its enemies without much help in 1948 (where it got no help from anyone) and in 1967 (not much from the U.S.) for it was only after the 1967 war, Israel got any aid from the U.S.

After while yes it’s help and Israel and Israelis appreciate it, without it Israel would certainly survive.

I mean it is now the forth or fifth largest arms producer in the world and it has a first class arms industry.



I don't know, how much Merkava-4 is an all Israeli product. Maybe I am wrong, but as far as I know, development of first Merkava tanks was made under US support. Maybe Merkava-4 is based on technologies from fírst Merkva series that are basedon US technologies? First of all the markava’s are primarily based on Israeli technologies.

Now yes the first one might have been based on some other tanks,however most of it had a lot of its own Israeli technologies. Hell even the modern U.S. Abrams tanks have some german and even some British designs in them.

All tanks have a few “borrowed” designs in them.

For the most part, the markeva’s (espceilly the merk4 and 3) was a wholly Israeli designed and Israeli built tank.

Whets clear and fact is that the markava has a lot of unique Israeli homegrown designs!!




All I know is that Merkava is not for export and for me there is no reason why only Merkava is not sold abroad. I don't believe in the fact, that Israel keeps it's best weapon for their own. It makes no sense, because Merkava could be sold downgraded as Russia or US did. You are wrong!!

I belive, though I could be wrong, The Merkava 3 is offered for export by SIBAT (which amongst other things, handles foreign military sales on behalf of the Israeli ministry of defense )based in Tel Aviv. The Merkava 4 is not offered for export but the systems and components are exported.

The Markava four is not sold abroad simply because it needs to first fill its own orders to the IDF.







In my country it was like in Israel...you don't have the choice to serve or not to serve. :lol: I was serving in the military, not as a tanker. I didn't wanted to get shoot by an cheap ATGM in a steel beast! :lol: :lol: :lol: hey believe me on this we have common ground ;) , however, he was a tanker and as such it is clear that he has much more expertise and knowledge about tanks then you (or even I ) do.

And of course he has full knowledge about the markava, perhaps you can challenge him on other tanks, though there too you have less then he as a tanker who learned about other tanks, does, but challenging him on the markava is simply laughable and in my opinion an exercise in extreme poor judgment on your part. :roll:




FYI, I was serving in the army staff at information branch and was listening to our Greek and Turkish NATO neighbours. That is all I can say about my military time. which nations military did you serve in?

Shalom :D

[Sorbas2000]

@IDFM203
In the army that defends "Heaven on Earth"...the land of Rose valleys, of white and sandy beaches, the land that gives a whole region the name because of its mountains, the land that protected their jews neighbours against German concentration camps and death. Checked?

[Operation Ivy]

Lets get this back on Topic,and please refrain from Personal insults,any more like this and I'll lock the thread.

Yes Sir!
Warning Big Pics

http://www.qrh.org.uk/galleryfour/Challenger%202%20sunrise.jpg

http://www.qrh.org.uk/galleryfour/Stand%20to.jpg

http://www.qrh.org.uk/galleryfour/Macedonian%20sunset.jpg

http://www.qrh.org.uk/galleryfour/Puma%20rescue.jpg

http://www.qrh.org.uk/galleryfour/Steaming%20by.jpg

http://www.qrh.org.uk/galleryfour/Green%20Arrows.jpg

http://www.qrh.org.uk/galleryfour/Challenger%20withdraw.jpg

http://www.qrh.org.uk/galleryfour/Smokin.jpg

[IDFM203]

To sorbas200o

Well you say you’re a neighbor of turkey and Greece so I will say Yugoslavia or Bulgaria.

That’s the only clue I have to go on for the other descriptions don’t fit any nation near those two countries in Europe ;) (though I might have read in the past how Jews were saved in Yugoslavia)

Unless your not in Europe?

And if you are in any of those two nations, well gees can you tell me the tanks and other high tech (if any) military armaments that your nation have designed and built?

Shalom :D

[Sorbas2000]

To sorbas200o

Well you say you’re a neighbor of turkey and Greece so I will say Yugoslavia or Bulgaria.

That’s the only clue I have to go on for the other descriptions don’t fit any nation near those two countries in Europe ;) (though I might have read in the past how Jews were saved in Yugoslavia)

Unless your not in Europe?

And if you are in any of those two nations, well gees can you tell me the tanks and other high tech (if any) military armaments that your nation have designed and built?

Shalom :D

Well, Ex-Yugoslavia has no border to Turkey....and as far as I know only Bulgaria has protected their Jews. So, we (in Bulgaria) had once one of the biggest arms industries. Before 1990 Bulgaria ha sexported arms worth more than 1,5 billion USD annually. Most was russian orign, but, as all of our stuff, our quality was improved. Now, for example, Flotski Arsenal in Varna is building 6 new multipurpose corvettes for our Navy and later for export. Just google a little bit and you will find Bulgarian military stuff.

Shalom, Issak? Schlomo? Itzak?...what's your name? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[IDFM203]

So, we (in Bulgaria) had once one of the biggest arms industries. Before 1990 Bulgaria ha sexported arms worth more than 1,5 billion USD annually. Most was russian orign, but, as all of our stuff, our quality was improved. ahh so most of your stuff was of Russian design :lol:

I asked what (if any) has been designed in Bulgaria by Bulgarians?

I mean gees your from Bulgaria :lol: , hell now I can’t understand why Javehn got so pissed off(sorry Javehn ;) )I mean yes Javehn was a tanker and your knowledge of what he personally dwelt with, was laughable. However, Hell if some Bulgarian said anything against Israeli arms or its high tech arms industry or called us Schlomos, I would just laugh my ass off. (As I am doing now rofl )



Just google a little bit and you will find Bulgarian military stuff. well I did a little search but I couldn’t find anything of high tech quality that was designed in your nation ;) :lol:

I am not saying outright that it doesn’t exist and as such that is why I have been asking you.




Shalom, Issak? Schlomo? Itzak?...what's your name? :lol: :lol: :lol: my name is IDFM203 ;) …that’s good enough for now :D

Hell what is your name?
GEORGI? IVANKA? LALA? PAVEL? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Shalom :D

[marktigger]

nice challey pics Op Ivy the winching from the puma onto the challey is a fun one have a mate who did it onto a scimitar in a minefield in bosnia.

[Operation Ivy]

Thxs :D

Did u serve in a Challenger?

[Argyll]

I'm a great fan of AFV's.................My job was blowing them Up!!!


Come on MILAN!!!!! woot ;)

[Javehn]

I'm a great fan of AFV's.................My job was blowing them Up!!!


Come on MILAN!!!!! woot ;)

That's just wrong :( :( :( . The only way beast can die , is by the hands of another beast . Tanks don't deserve to die from ATGM operators .
On those times , i like to think about ATGM Team Drill . I am shure some of you wan't like it at all (Argyll ;) ) . That was my favored performed drill , because of the high violence consentration toward ATGM operator . woot

[Argyll]

I'm a great fan of AFV's.................My job was blowing them Up!!!


Come on MILAN!!!!! woot ;)

That's just wrong :( :( :( . The only way beast can die , is by the hands of another beast . Tanks don't deserve to die from ATGM operators .
On those times , i like to think about ATGM Team Drill . I am shure some of you wan't like it at all (Argyll ;) ) . That was my favored performed drill , because of the high violence consentration toward ATGM operator . woot

:D If it's a choice of admiring the sleek lines of a T72 or stopping it from killing my men,I know the choice I would make!!
Anti tank Warfare is a Skilled art......................and I was a Good MILAN Detachment Commander ;)

[Javehn]

If it's a choice of admiring the sleek lines of a T72 or stopping it from killing my men,I know the choice I would make!!
Anti tank Warfare is a Skilled art......................and I was a Good MILAN Detachment Commander

Wass ist das "Detachment" unit , that you commanded on ?

[Argyll]

A MILAN Detachment consists of 8 men,and 2 MILAN Firing Posts

[Javehn]

A MILAN Detachment consists of 8 men,and 2 MILAN Firing Posts

If it's not OPSEC , can you explain this sentence a bit more ??

[Sorbas2000]

So, we (in Bulgaria) had once one of the biggest arms industries. Before 1990 Bulgaria ha sexported arms worth more than 1,5 billion USD annually. Most was russian orign, but, as all of our stuff, our quality was improved. ahh so most of your stuff was of Russian design :lol:

I asked what (if any) has been designed in Bulgaria by Bulgarians?

I mean gees your from Bulgaria :lol: , hell now I can’t understand why Javehn got so pissed off(sorry Javehn ;) )I mean yes Javehn was a tanker and your knowledge of what he personally dwelt with, was laughable. However, Hell if some Bulgarian said anything against Israeli arms or its high tech arms industry or called us Schlomos, I would just laugh my ass off. (As I am doing now rofl )



Just google a little bit and you will find Bulgarian military stuff. well I did a little search but I couldn’t find anything of high tech quality that was designed in your nation ;) :lol:

I am not saying outright that it doesn’t exist and as such that is why I have been asking you.




Shalom, Issak? Schlomo? Itzak?...what's your name? :lol: :lol: :lol: my name is IDFM203 ;) …that’s good enough for now :D

Hell what is your name?
GEORGI? IVANKA? LALA? PAVEL? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Shalom :D

You want to know about bulgarian high-tech:

- Vulcan-S (Artillery C3-I)
- Kaliakra-02 (Naval radar and C4I)
- 1,000t, 80m multi-purpose corvettes (Flotski Arsenal)
- Maritza NBC-System (based on MT-LB)
- Strandzha radio communication
- BMP-23A and BMP-30 IFV....now there is development of new IFV at Terem and VMZ
- different sophisticated warheads for RPG-7 series from Arsenal
- last but not least...manymodernization and upgrade programms (Su-22M4, T-72M2, BTR-MD, SA-6 Kub, P-37VM/ P-14/ P-18M radar systems, etc.)

I know, that Israel has more and better high-tech products, no question!

[Argyll]

2x 4 man teams both eqipped with a MILAN weapon system

[Javehn]

2x 4 man teams both eqipped with a MILAN weapon system

Gotta , thanks . I remember learning in the lessons how ATGM consist and how it works , but unfortunatly , i kinda forgot those things . Only thing that i remember from the lesson is : If you see a light comming to you , shoot like crazy mofo to the source with everything you got , and run like a crasy mother away from there , rising smoke and dust in every possible way . In a simple words .

[Argyll]

Very difficult to see a missile in flight,as the rocket motor flare is usually only seen by the ATGM operator,who uses it to guide the missile onto the target!!

[Javehn]

Very difficult to see a missile in flight,as the rocket motor flare is usually only seen by the ATGM operator,who uses it to guide the missile onto the target!!

You probably right (sence you are the MILAN instructor :) ) . Sagger however can be seen pretty well from a distance . It is flying in circles , pretty slow and it is seen from miles away . And perhaps it is the only ATGM , that a vehicle have a dissent chance to escape it .

If i am not mistaken, many Laser riding missiles exposing their mottors to a vehicle , sence it is rides on a circiluar movements into the target , and if it makes too big circle , it is exposed . If you would make this conversation with me 3 years ago , i would talled you much more then that .

Last IDF tanker that was killed from ATGM , was killed from Sagger , just when i was on my tankers basic training (something like 4 years ago ) .

[IDFM203]

You want to know about bulgarian high-tech: Well not really. I just wanted to understand why Javhen got so pissed.

I still don’t get it (again sorry Javehn ;)). I mean after seeing that small list there, again if someone from Bulgaria said anything against Israeli arms or its high tech arms industry or called us Schlomos (as you thought it was some type of insult), I would just laugh my ass off (As I am still doing now rofl ).

Anyways we can go on and on.

I see I have made you calm down and you now say Israel and not Schlomo (which is still funny to me as how you though that might insult us) and your flaming rhetoric has died down.

That’s good.



In the future I suggest when you post something relating to a particular military item, you have a understanding that some members here are former BTDT’s that have vast personal experience with just some of the military hardware that you are talking about and challenging them on what they know based on your own whatever (a lot of your posts, it seemed to me was merely based on your own made up hearsay) is not a sign of any knowledgeable insight or anything that needs to be taken seriously.




I know, that Israel has more and better high-tech products, no question! That was never in doubt. No need to state the obvious ;) :D . Schlomos (I like this now ;) ) high tech industry again, is the forth or fifth largest arms producer in the world!!


Schlomo....errr Shalom :D

[marktigger]

nope my job is generally to change the burns dressings and give analgesia and keep topped up the antibiotics of the crisy critters of tank crews after argyll's mates have finished

[Javehn]

nope my job is generally to change the burns dressings and give analgesia and keep topped up the antibiotics of the crisy critters of tank crews after argyll's mates have finished

:| :| :| :| :( :(

[Argyll]

I just noticed your Signature Javehn!!

Not when I'm on the ground with my band of Argylls on a tank hunting trip!! ;)

[Sorbas2000]

You want to know about bulgarian high-tech: Well not really. I just wanted to understand why Javhen got so pissed.

I still don’t get it (again sorry Javehn ;)). I mean after seeing that small list there, again if someone from Bulgaria said anything against Israeli arms or its high tech arms industry or called us Schlomos (as you thought it was some type of insult), I would just laugh my ass off (As I am still doing now rofl ).

Anyways we can go on and on.

I see I have made you calm down and you now say Israel and not Schlomo (which is still funny to me as how you though that might insult us) and your flaming rhetoric has died down.

That’s good.



In the future I suggest when you post something relating to a particular military item, you have a understanding that some members here are former BTDT’s that have vast personal experience with just some of the military hardware that you are talking about and challenging them on what they know based on your own whatever (a lot of your posts, it seemed to me was merely based on your own made up hearsay) is not a sign of any knowledgeable insight or anything that needs to be taken seriously.




I know, that Israel has more and better high-tech products, no question! That was never in doubt. No need to state the obvious ;) :D . Schlomos (I like this now ;) ) high tech industry again, is the forth or fifth largest arms producer in the world!!


Schlomo....errr Shalom :D

Did I miss something...I never said anything against Israel's arms industry. The discussion was about quality of Challenger and Leclerc tanks as well as about export of Merkava tanks!

And by the way...why I was calling Javehn Schlome? May you look first how Javehn called me (something like Zurna, Zorba, russian "luyno glava", "Zabey yebalo , Bulgarskaya Ikra sranaya")...so if my name SORBAS200 is so difficult Javehn couldn't used it right, maybe Javehn was to difficult to me...so I just used Schlomo, because it's a little bit easier to spell. :lol: And secondly...these russian descriptions about me were not very fine...they are on a level I never described Javehn and would never describe Israeli people, but it doesn't matter.

[marktigger]

at least its not EH tech who hose out the bits of crew left behind

[marktigger]

Its not a pleasnt job and i don't think people realise the down sides to it thy take the piss in peace time but are mighty glad to see us when they need us.
I wold say we're the only people who go to war and don't want to do our job.

[HELEX]

"Defence Systems Daily: Germany's Leopard 2 remains the world's best tank

The Pentagon's gas turbine-powered M1 Abrams may be the first tank that comes to the minds of most Americans, but overall, Germany's Leopard 2 is the world's best. In a new analysis of the world tank market, Forecast International/ DMS finds that, based on an overall comparison in terms of lethality, fightability, mobility and survivability, the Leopard 2A6EX comes out on top. The annual tank analysis and ranking, the only one of its type available from open sources, is a product of Forecast International's Weapon Group.

Although the Leopard 2A6EX ranked above the M1 Abrams (in the A2 system enhancement package model), the gap between the two tanks remains exceedingly small. In this year's survey, the deciding factor was the Leopard 2's 55-calibre version of the Rh 120mm tank cannon and the formidable DM 53 long rod penetrating ammunition. The Abrams is slated to receive the same cannon, but not for several years.

New and improved fire control components, the addition of an auxiliary power unit, as well as overall performance helped push the Leopard 2 A6EX ahead of the M1A2 system enhancement package model in Forecast International's latest ranking. Even so, the M1A2 system enhancement package, which is bringing all M1 tanks to a single improved level, represents a major enhancement to the Abrams' already formidable proven fighting ability. Indeed, based on its superior performance during the Persian Gulf War, the Abrams stands at the head of the ranking in terms of combat performance.

In addition, the vacillating Russians aside, the M1 is still the only tank in production that firmly uses a vehicular gas turbine as its prime mover. The US Army recently selected the General Electric LV-100 vehicular gas turbine to re-power the Abrams.

Coming in at third place in the rankings is Japan's highly sophisticated Type 90, an amalgamation of German tank technology and Japanese expertise in advanced electronics. The Type 90 is followed by the Leclerc of France and the United Kingdom's Challenger 2, both in their latest versions.

Making a significant rise in the rankings this year is Israel's Merkava in the latest Mark III Baz model. Contributing to this rise in the standings is the enhanced armour protection and greatly improved fire control components of this latest version of the Merkava.

The latest analysis and ranking again has the omnipresent Russian tanks falling short of their Western counterparts, despite some recent major improvements as well as the continued lead by the Russians in active defence systems.

Forecast International/ DMS Inc is a leading provider of market intelligence and analyses in the areas of aerospace, defence, power systems and military electronics and specialises in long-range industry forecasts."

[Javehn]

Nice article . Also very much outdated (very much ) . The tank recieve upgrade packages on a constant basis from the manufactures . But overall , pretty good conlussion to that point of time .

[Krivetka]

there are no big ass pics here

[Javehn]

T-84 Sucks woot

[Operation Ivy]

there are no big ass pics here

well sorry they didnt take up your screen

[Groove]

Guys, could you explain me "Schlomo". Okay it seems to be a Insult on Jews. Maybe on Russian Immigrants to Israel ? Could some1 help me? No i wont use it - im just curious :)

Groove

[oldsoak]

I think Schlomo is the same as Solomon, so maybe it a stereotype name for Jews - bit like calling an Irishman Paddy but used in a negative way?
hope I'm wrong.