Army Orders Soldiers to Shed Dragon Skin or Lose SGLI Death Benefits

[usafbalad]

If this is a repost, mods please delete....


Two deploying soldiers and a concerned mother reported Friday afternoon that the U.S. Army appears to be singling out soldiers who have purchased Pinnacle's Dragon Skin Body Armor for special treatment. The soldiers, who are currently staging for combat operations from a secret location, reported that their commander told them if they were wearing Pinnacle Dragon Skin and were killed their beneficiaries might not receive the death benefits from their $400,000 SGLI life insurance policies. The soldiers were ordered to leave their privately purchased body armor at home or face the possibility of both losing their life insurance benefit and facing disciplinary action.



The soldiers asked for anonymity because they are concerned they will face retaliation for going public with the Army's apparently new directive. At the sources' requests DefenseWatch has also agreed not to reveal the unit at which the incident occured for operational security reasons.



On Saturday morning a soldier affected by the order reported to DefenseWatch that the directive specified that "all" commercially available body armor was prohibited. The soldier said the order came down Friday morning from Headquarters, United States Special Operations Command (HQ, USSOCOM), located at MacDill Air Force Base, Florida. It arrived unexpectedly while his unit was preparing to deploy on combat operations. The soldier said the order was deeply disturbiing to many of the men who had used their own money to purchase Dragon Skin because it will affect both their mobility and ballistic protection.



"We have to be able to move. It (Dragon Skin) is heavy, but it is made so we have mobility and the best ballistic protection out there. This is crazy. And they are threatening us with our benefits if we don't comply." he said.



The soldier reiterated Friday's reports that any soldier who refused to comply with the order and was subsequently killed in action "could" be denied the $400,000 death benefit provided by their SGLI life insurance policy as well as face disciplinary action.



As of this report Saturday morning the Army has not yet responded to a DefenseWatch inquiry.



Recently Dragon Skin became an item of contention between proponents of the Interceptor OTV body armor generally issued to all service members deploying in combat theaters and its growing legion of critics. Critics of the Interceptor OTV system say it is ineffective and inferior to Dragon Skin, as well as several other commercially available body armor systems on the market. Last week DefenseWatch released a secret Marine Corps report that determined that 80% of the 401 Marines killed in Iraq between April 2004 and June 2005 might have been saved if the Interceptor OTV body armor they were wearing was more effective. The Army has declined to comment on the report because doing so could aid the enemy, an Army spokesman has repeatedly said.



A U.S. Army spokesman was not available for comment at the time DW's original report (Friday - 1700 CST) was published. DefenseWatch continues to seek a response from the Army and will post one as soon as it becomes available. Yesterday the DoD released a news story through the Armed Forces News Service that quoted Maj. Gen. Steven Speaks, the Army's director of force development, who countered critical media reports by denying that the U.S. military is behind the curve in providing appropriate force protection gear for troops deployed to Iraq and elsewhere in the global war against terrorism. The New York Tiimes and Washington Post led the bandwagon of mainstream media that capitalized on DefenseWatch's release of the Marine Corps study. Both newspapers released the forensic information the Army and Marines are unwilling to discuss.



"Those headlines entirely miss the point," Speaks said.



The effort to improve body armor "has been a programmatic effort in the case of the Army that has gone on with great intensity for the last five months," he noted.



Speaks' assessment contradicts earlier Army, Marine and DoD statements that indicated as late as last week that the Army was certain there was nothing wrong with Interceptor OTV body armor and that it was and remains the "best body armor in the world."



One of the soldiers who lost his coveted Dragon Skin is a veteran operator. He reported that his commander expressed deep regret upon issuing his orders directing him to leave his Dragon Skin body armor behind. The commander reportedly told his subordinates that he "had no choice because the orders came from very high up" and had to be enforced, the soldier said. Another soldier's story was corroborated by his mother, who helped defray the $6,000 cost of buying the Dragon Skin, she said.



The mother of the soldier, who hails from the Providence, Rhode Island area, said she helped pay for the Dragon Skin as a Christmas present because her son told her it was "so much better" than the Interceptor OTV they expected to be issued when arriving in country for a combat tour.



"He didn't want to use that other stuff," she said. "He told me that if anything happened to him I am supposed to raise hell."



At the time the orders were issued the two soldiers had already loaded their Dragon Skin body armor onto the pallets being used to air freight their gear into the operational theater, the soldiers said. They subsequently removed it pursuant to their orders.



Currently nine U.S. generals stationed in Afghanistan are reportedly wearing Pinnacle Dragon Skin body armor, according to company spokesman Paul Chopra. Chopra, a retired Army chief warrant officer and 20+-year pilot in the famed 160th "Nightstalkers" Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne), said his company was merely told the generals wanted to "evaluate" the body armor in a combat environment. Chopra said he did not know the names of the general officers wearing the Dragon Skin.



Pinnacle claims more than 3,000 soldiers and civilians stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan are wearing Dragon Skin body armor, Chopra said. Several months ago DefenseWatch began receiving anecdotal reports from individual soldiers that they were being forced to remove all non-issue gear while in theater, including Dragon Skin body armor, boots, and various kinds of non-issue ancillary equipment.



Last year the DoD, under severe pressure from Congress, authorized a one-time $1,000 reimbursement to soldiers who had purchased civilian equipment to supplement either inadequate or unavailable equipment they needed for combat operations. At the time there was no restriction on what the soldiers could buy as long as it was specifically intended to offer personal protection or further their mission capabilities while in theater.

http://www.sftt.org/main.cfm?actionId=globalShowStaticContent&screenKey=cmpDefense&htmlCategoryID=30&htmlId=4514

[ed316]

This IS Fvcked up

[Argyll]

I can see their point though,if the Body Armour didn't do it's job,and the wearer was killed,then the legal implications are enormous....It's the same with the Brits,you wear regulation stuff,that's been proven,and covered under the HES.......if you wear some Gucci stuff and it fails,then the Government cannot accept liability.....

[Kingswat]

But if the stuff they are wearing is better then the army issue, and can prevent you from getting killed if shot in a certain area that your army issue doesn't cover, then the family could go after them for even more in a lawsuit then the insurance benefits.

[dangerdan87]

The Army doesn't seem very well organized....
Theyve spend billions on helicopters and armaments that they've killed more than halfway through testing. Theyre also creating some starways SIFI suit for the fureture right now, whih will probably be killed as well. Now theyre threatening Soldiers of losing their Death Benifits...

Tsk Tsk Tsk.

[Johnny bazooka]

indeed, strange.

[Argyll]

Yeah but nobody forced them to Join the Military,and the stuff is always better until one fails,then it opens a can of worms,if the wording in the bill (SGLI)states the wearer has to be wearing issued gear,then it's covered and therefore by law it means the $400,000 gets paid......if the wearer of anything non issued,is killed,then by definition they are not liable..........

I know it makes sense to wear the best kit out there,but read the small print on your insurances,loopholes will be exploited by companys unwilling to part with their money.......it's like any kind of life insurance,there's always clauses you never read,or ignore,the Military may turn round and say "He chose not to wear issued protection",which does not make us liable for his death?

Interesting story none the less!

[Mechanical Ambush]

If its soooooo goooood, then why worry?

[Icar]

I have a apprenticeship in law firm that represent insurance companies and my job is to find if we can deny paycheck. People don`t read what they sign, and often break the rules:) If you want insurance you have to play by their rules. Not everyone like it but what you can do?

[ronin2172]

People are saying strange...there is nothing strange about it. It happens all the time in any thing you have insured or under warranty.

Look at cars, if you add a non approved aftermarket part (no matter if it makes the car safer) you will void the warranty, so any damage or maintainence is now on you to pay for.

If you have health insurance...the minute you engage in something the insurer deems as dangerous activity you can void your coverage.

Like Argyll said you have to read the fine print.

[ibstolidude]

According to the OSGLI this is not accurate and nothing more than a rumor.

[sethen]

I got deployed to Kuwait/Iraq with just a flak vest, the old type. I didn't even get an interceptor vest. I could have died from having been issued improper gear. I am sure that those Generals athat are wearing the Dragon Skin are wearing it because no one can tell them to take it off. "Just enforcing the Orders, Sir." That type of Mentality is why I left the Army after nine years.

[RGRBOX]

Well, if the Army says you have to wear a certain uniform then that's it. I understand guys wanting to upgrade thier body armor, but as for the insurance... they could keep from having to pay up just for those Oakley Ass. Boots in CT that your wearing when your leg gets taken off by a IED. Strange world the Insurance companies... but I wouldn't put it past the Army, if someone up top is trying to keep the Intercepters in business. That and the idea behind a couple of Gen. Officers wearing the stuff in the Theater of Operations...

Does anyone have anymore info on this dragon Skin Vest..

[Resevoir Hogs]

I think the government should have to accept liability no matter what the soldier was wearing. Because at the end of the day it was government policy that made it possible for those soldiers to be deployed to Iraq.

[sethen]

Does anyone have anymore info on this dragon Skin Vest...

www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/sov.php

[Laworkerbee]

So to over come this problem Pinnacle Dragon Skin simply just needs to give a guarantee that if you die wearing their vest you will be insured for $400,001.

There problem solved p-)

[AlexNenadic]

Sounds like the same hor**** reasoning used to keep guys from mounting privately purchased optics on their weapons. Fortunately this policy has changed since 2001, optics are the user's choice now.

Just watch, they'll be allowing privately purchased body armor sooner rather than later. This is a case of bureaucratic inertia.

[BusterHyman]

Its amazing that life is only worth almost half a million these days.

[Royal]

Its amazing that life is only worth almost half a million these days.

It's amazing that a life is worth that much.

Go back 50, 100 or more years and how much were payouts then?

[Bia]

The words "lawsuit" and "US Military" dont belong in the same sentence.
In my humble opinion of course.

[RGRBOX]

I remember when it was 200,000.-- bucks

[CountZero]

The words "lawsuit" and "US Military" dont belong in the same sentence.
In my humble opinion of course.

Why? is the us military totaly immune from any and all lawsuits?

[Skeletor]

There is billions of dollars worth of contracts for providing equipment to the US Armed Forces. Who do you think gets the contracts? The ones with friends in high places of course! They want these contracts to continue and if Soldiers decide to buy their own gear Army issue gear is hardly worth having is it?

Besides it's called a uniform for a reason.

[Bia]

Why? is the us military totaly immune from any and all lawsuits?
I believe they should be.
They do some really hard and dirty work that a massive majority of Americans dont want to do.
They dont need to be burdened by the fear of lawsuits for doing a less than ideal job.

[CountZero]

I believe they should be.
They do some really hard and dirty work that a massive majority of Americans dont want to do.
They dont need to be burdened by the fear of lawsuits for doing a less than ideal job.

althought i agree with this to an extent , your intepretation i think is going a bit overboard. If they are immune from any legal proceedings then effectively what prevents them from throwing out the rules of war out the window.


And B) isnt the army supposed to adequately supply the forces that are going into a combat zone? or are they going to go in the event of a largescale conflict back to the strategy of lower tech but higher numbers (which i think would be much harder for the US since their military isnt structured that way)


Dont

[Icar]

I believe they should be.
They do some really hard and dirty work that a massive majority of Americans dont want to do.
They dont need to be burdened by the fear of lawsuits for doing a less than ideal job.

There have been countries where armed forces were immune to lawsuits:Soviet Union and Third Reich.

In democracy everyone have to obey the law. Without that you don`t have democracy.

[Bia]

althought i agree with this to an extent , your intepretation i think is going a bit overboard. If they are immune from any legal proceedings then effectively what prevents them from throwing out the rules of war out the window.


And B) isnt the army supposed to adequately supply the forces that are going into a combat zone? or are they going to go in the event of a largescale conflict back to the strategy of lower tech but higher numbers (which i think would be much harder for the US since their military isnt structured that way)


Dont

Well...you're reading too much into my thought...
What I mean is....if a soldier dies because of a major FUBAR or from a simple piece of flying metal from the enemy....
No one needs to be filing a lawsuit on their behalf.
Life isnt fair. Life is full of unfortunate incidents. People dont need to get PAID everytime someone dies. Of course normal death benefits should apply to immediate family....but NO huge payoffs for Aunt Thelma and cousin Johnny.

Your second comment...
Again...life isnt fair or perfect..nor should anyone expect it to be.
A commander cant always know exactly what adequate forces are needed.
Life throws us curves...hope for the best....but prepare for the worst.

The last thing a commander needs to worry about is if he makes a descision that ends up with half his men dead....he's going to be part of a lawsuit.

I'm no soldier nor do I pretend to be....but my father was...and he said, "People die everyday in the military, through peace and war. It's part of the risk of being a human being."

[Bia]

There have been countries where armed forces were immune to lawsuits:Soviet Union and Third Reich.

In democracy everyone have to obey the law. Without that you don`t have democracy.

your point is moot.
As most know....everyone in a democracy does NOT have to obey the law equally.

Liberty and justice for all......that can afford it.

[mudbunny]

I understand it from a soldiers perspective but legally, I have to side with the military. The liability for your death lies in the hands of the government and any compensation herein, but you have to be playing by their rules to get it. It's all about liability. They're not saying that you can't wear it, they're just saying if you're wearing it and you die, your family gets nothing. What bothers me is the fact that the higher ups are wearing different protection. What the hell is that all about? If the stuff is so good and these same peckerhead Generals are signing off on it, then they better be wearing it. Hippocrits.

[mudbunny]

"The words "lawsuit" and "US Military" dont belong in the same sentence.
In my humble opinion of course."

I agree. It's a dangerous pandoras box to open if it ever happens.

[CountZero]

Well...you're reading too much into my thought...
What I mean is....if a soldier dies because of a major FUBAR or from a simple piece of flying metal from the enemy....
No one needs to be filing a lawsuit on their behalf.
Life isnt fair. Life is full of unfortunate incidents. People dont need to get PAID everytime someone dies. Of course normal death benefits should apply to immediate family....but NO huge payoffs for Aunt Thelma and cousin Johnny.

Your second comment...
Again...life isnt fair or perfect..nor should anyone expect it to be.
A commander cant always know exactly what adequate forces are needed.
Life throws us curves...hope for the best....but prepare for the worst.

The last thing a commander needs to worry about is if he makes a descision that ends up with half his men dead....he's going to be part of a lawsuit.

I'm no soldier nor do I pretend to be....but my father was...and he said, "People die everyday in the military, through peace and war. It's part of the risk of being a human being."

ok gotcha. thaks for the clarification. I might have percieved things in your statement that werent exactly there

[PvtPyle]

I believe they should be.
They do some really hard and dirty work that a massive majority of Americans dont want to do.
They dont need to be burdened by the fear of lawsuits for doing a less than ideal job.

The system should not be immune from lawsuits. From a soldiers POV, it is the last ditch manner in which WE have for going after the system if it does us wrong. The military, like the rest of government and society needs to be accountable and liable for wrong doing.

Doing a dirty job has nothing to do with it. Doing a soldier ****ty has everything to do with it.

[Para]

There was a time that if you wore any thing except what was issued to you, then you were in trouble. The thing to do is to watch for any officer regardless of rank wearing any thing but standard issue, then once you have found that person report them to all and sundry

[RGRBOX]

When you join the military, you soon learn that you don't live by the same laws that civilian society live by. You have to live by The Uniform Code of Military Justice. You go out as a civilian and smoke a joint, and your boss will 99.9% of the time never find out... in the military he will. You cheat on your wife of visvera in the civilain world you can get away with it. In the military if it's found out, and I know from my time in, it is found out often, you can have some problems. You get caught Drinking and Driving in the military, the crime is more serious then in the civilian world. You have to maintain and different life style in the military. You live under different rules.. I remember once I got out of the Army, how I could accually tell my boss to go fvck himself, and sure he could fire, me, but in the Army he could frie you. When you join, you loose the right to sue the govern't. I remember being told that the DOD have mad if agaist UCMJ to speak bad about the President of the US... "Clinton"... I remember when we booed Gore when he forgot our Rgt in a speach, and our Cdr wasn't pleased with us... You have to live life on a fine line in the military, you get paid for working 24 hours a day. They can do what they want with you. We used to have a saying "They could kill ya, but not eat ya"... If you get my meaning. You can't sue the govern't while serving, nor can your family. On the other hand, the military and your leaders have a responsibility to make sure that all is done to insure that you have everything needed to help you do your job, accomplish the mission, and get you home. When this breaks down, then problems like were seen in VN, where I remember a doc. I saw about a company from the 1 CAV went on strike because they lost respect, and trust for their Company Commander... the guy was under orders to move his company from point A to point B, but he would except the experience of his NCOs.. so the company stopped and took a nap in the shade... Situations like Solmolia, when the Politics behind the machine sent men over to do a mission without some of it assets, example C130 Gunships or heavey armor requested by cdrs...

Last point. If you don't want your life to have this kind of control over it, then wait before you join up. Or if you have what it takes try to get into a field were you will have more say over yourself... example the Special Forces...

You can't hold the military responsible in a court of law for desesions made in the battle... then you would have a situation simular to what we have today, where even an EMT or doctor is worried about helping someone or doing their job, because of the sueing nature of the US...

[RGRBOX]

There was a time that if you wore any thing except what was issued to you, then you were in trouble. The thing to do is to watch for any officer regardless of rank wearing any thing but standard issue, then once you have found that person report them to all and sundry

no s.h.i.t....

I find it good that soldiers of today have more chose of what they wear in battle... I remember the days when you only wore what was given... and nothing more..

[Bia]

When you join the military, you soon learn that you don't live by the same laws that civilian society live by. You have to live by The Uniform Code of Military Justice. You go out as a civilian and smoke a joint, and your boss will 99.9% of the time never find out... in the military he will. You cheat on your wife of visvera in the civilain world you can get away with it. In the military if it's found out, and I know from my time in, it is found out often, you can have some problems. You get caught Drinking and Driving in the military, the crime is more serious then in the civilian world. You have to maintain and different life style in the military. You live under different rules.. I remember once I got out of the Army, how I could accually tell my boss to go fvck himself, and sure he could fire, me, but in the Army he could frie you. When you join, you loose the right to sue the govern't. I remember being told that the DOD have mad if agaist UCMJ to speak bad about the President of the US... "Clinton"... I remember when we booed Gore when he forgot our Rgt in a speach, and our Cdr wasn't pleased with us... You have to live life on a fine line in the military, you get paid for working 24 hours a day. They can do what they want with you. We used to have a saying "They could kill ya, but not eat ya"... If you get my meaning. You can't sue the govern't while serving, nor can your family. On the other hand, the military and your leaders have a responsibility to make sure that all is done to insure that you have everything needed to help you do your job, accomplish the mission, and get you home. When this breaks down, then problems like were seen in VN, where I remember a doc. I saw about a company from the 1 CAV went on strike because they lost respect, and trust for their Company Commander... the guy was under orders to move his company from point A to point B, but he would except the experience of his NCOs.. so the company stopped and took a nap in the shade... Situations like Solmolia, when the Politics behind the machine sent men over to do a mission without some of it assets, example C130 Gunships or heavey armor requested by cdrs...

Last point. If you don't want your life to have this kind of control over it, then wait before you join up. Or if you have what it takes try to get into a field were you will have more say over yourself... example the Special Forces...

You can't hold the military responsible in a court of law for desesions made in the battle... then you would have a situation simular to what we have today, where even an EMT or doctor is worried about helping someone or doing their job, because of the sueing nature of the US...


Outstanding post!
Because it's true!

:)

[CountZero]

When you join the military, you soon learn that you don't live by the same laws that civilian society live by. You have to live by The Uniform Code of Military Justice. You go out as a civilian and smoke a joint, and your boss will 99.9% of the time never find out... in the military he will. You cheat on your wife of visvera in the civilain world you can get away with it. In the military if it's found out, and I know from my time in, it is found out often, you can have some problems. You get caught Drinking and Driving in the military, the crime is more serious then in the civilian world. You have to maintain and different life style in the military. You live under different rules.. I remember once I got out of the Army, how I could accually tell my boss to go fvck himself, and sure he could fire, me, but in the Army he could frie you. When you join, you loose the right to sue the govern't. I remember being told that the DOD have mad if agaist UCMJ to speak bad about the President of the US... "Clinton"... I remember when we booed Gore when he forgot our Rgt in a speach, and our Cdr wasn't pleased with us... You have to live life on a fine line in the military, you get paid for working 24 hours a day. They can do what they want with you. We used to have a saying "They could kill ya, but not eat ya"... If you get my meaning. You can't sue the govern't while serving, nor can your family. On the other hand, the military and your leaders have a responsibility to make sure that all is done to insure that you have everything needed to help you do your job, accomplish the mission, and get you home. When this breaks down, then problems like were seen in VN, where I remember a doc. I saw about a company from the 1 CAV went on strike because they lost respect, and trust for their Company Commander... the guy was under orders to move his company from point A to point B, but he would except the experience of his NCOs.. so the company stopped and took a nap in the shade... Situations like Solmolia, when the Politics behind the machine sent men over to do a mission without some of it assets, example C130 Gunships or heavey armor requested by cdrs...

Last point. If you don't want your life to have this kind of control over it, then wait before you join up. Or if you have what it takes try to get into a field were you will have more say over yourself... example the Special Forces...

You can't hold the military responsible in a court of law for desesions made in the battle... then you would have a situation simular to what we have today, where even an EMT or doctor is worried about helping someone or doing their job, because of the sueing nature of the US...

Great Post.

just a couple of questions

1 Do you fall under this if you are a civilian contractor attached to a unit ex analyst

2. "On the other hand, the military and your leaders have a responsibility to make sure that all is done to insure that you have everything needed to help you do your job, accomplish the mission, and get you home."

Then what would be the explanation for the news i read that troops in iraq dont have sufficient equipment? Or would that be superceded by " have to follow orders under any cicumstances".

[RGRBOX]

I don't know how or what effect this would have on a DOD civilain employee. But I'm sure that the govern't could find someway to get rid of someone who didn't follow the rules. My dad is a civilian now with the military. He doesn't wear a unifrom, anymore, but he still has a military boss...

As for the military not supporting the soldiers with the best equipment, or worst not enough equipment. Well you saw what happened when this news got out. S.h.i.t. hit the fan. The same as it will hit if this story turns out to be true. The American people are involved in the war more then any other since WW2. They see it everyday on TV, and they have a loved one over there or they know someone who does. I'm sure that when this does come out, then all hell with break loose. And although the Dragon Skins maybe the best, it's not being used for a reason... maybe the miltary hasn't tested it yet. You see, although there has been more done during this war to improve equipment, training, quality of life for the troops, Industry nor testing has been able to keep up. Look at the tests on the possible upgrade of munitions 5.56 to the 6.8 ammo. Although it's be proven that 5.56 ans 9mm isn't up to standard to killing the enemy, we have what it takes to do the job. So you see guys humping 7.62 M14 rifles, and .45 cal pistols... but the military is taking a little longer to get these weapons, and changes across the board. It's taking years just to change out new equipment and unifroms... I still that that the OTV isn't that bad... I served 100 years and was in some hot locations without any body armor... hell, I remeber for the prep for the Haiti Operation, they were offering us flack Vest... I though I would take my chances of jumping in with out the extra weight, that couldn't stop a fart passing thru it...