Serbian-Montenegrin MiG-29 fate under question

[shadower]

www.airserbia.com:

SERBIAN-MONTENEGRIN MiG-29 FATE UNDER QUESTION

A number of Serbian medias have announced that the overhaul of Serbian and Montenegrin Air Force MiG-29 fighters is one of the highest priorities of Serbian-Montenegrin Ministry of Defence and is scheduled to begin during 2006. The reports suggests that all five MiG-29s (four single-seat MiG-29 Fulcrum-A and one two-seat MiG-29UB Fulcrum-B) have been recently inspected by Russian specialist in their home base at Batajnica. The RSK-MiG specialist have accomplished in-deep scanning of the Fulcrums that have survived the NATO-intervention in 1999 and now Serbia and Montenegro Ministry of Defence is waiting for official Russian proposal on the cost of returning this jest in service. The proposal should be based around idea most of the MiG-29s overhaul works to be done in Serbia-Montenegro Air Force Institute "Moma Stanojlovic" located at Batajnica Air Force base, some 20 km north-west of Belgrade. The Government in Belgrade believes that the MiG-29 overhaul could be a good chance for restoring the once very perspective Air Force Institute and keeping it alive until Serbia and Montenegro joins NATO and EU when this facility could became increasingly more interesting for US and European aviation industry.

According to well-informed Serbian sources, apart from the overhaul issue, the Serbia and Montenegro Ministry of Defence will also receive from RSK MiG an offers for supplying the Serbian-Montenegrin Air Force with additional second-hand MiG-29 fighters as well as for upgrading the current Serbian-Montenegrin MiG-29s into more advanced standard, thought it is hard to believe that the Ministry of Defence could afford money for such investments from its poor budget. Instead, it is real to expect that Serbia will only opt for overhaul and returning into service of its five MiG-29 that have officially ceased flying on April 1, 2004. In the later stage it is possible to expect that additional MiG-29s will be purchased or received as a donation from some friendly country. The idea is again to put into full-strength the Serbian-Montenegrin Air Force only MiG-29 unit the 127. Lovacka Avijacijska Eskadrila Vitezovi (127th Fighter Aviation Squadron Knights) of the 204. Lovacko Avijacijski Puk (204th Fighter Aviation Regiment) operating within the Korpus Protiv-Vazdusne Odbrane (Air Defence Corps).

The Knights have lost 11 MiG-29s (ten single-seat MiG-29 Fulcrum-A and one two-seat MiG-29UB Fulcrum-B) in the air and on the ground during 1999 when, because of the crisis in the south Serbian province of Kosovo, Yugoslavia came under NATO attack named "Operation Allied Force". However, Serbia and Montenegro is now seriously considering increasing the number of operational MiG-29s in line with its intentions to provide its own air defence as well as to fulfill overall international obligation to participate in the Partnership for Peace (PfP) exercises as a step forward to future full-member status within NATO. Slovenia pays Italy 60 million Euro a year to guard its sky, and its territory is several times smaller than ours. So you should multiply this sum by three or four to see how much it would cost us to have our skies defended by someone elses air force, 204th Fighter Aviation Regiment Commander, Colonel Nebojsa Dzukanovic said. He believes it would take about 20 million Euro to overhaul the five available MiG-29 fighter planes, in order to, at least for a time, enable efficient control of the countrys airspace, in line with the overall international obligation. Colonel Djukanovic also reveals that due to the lack of airworthy aircraft and jet fuel, fighter pilots log less than 10 hours of flying per year, which may create problems to Serbia and Montenegro and prevents it from participating in the PfP and NATO programs requiring at least 150 hours per year.

In line with expected-to-begin Russian overhaul of Serbian-Montenegrin MiG-29s, that all have been bought by former Yugoslavia back in the 1987, Serbian medias recently revealed that a contract has been signed in 1997 with unidentified Belarusian company for overhaul of two MiG-29s. Reportedly, the realization of this contract failed due to political reasons. Also, it has been now confirmed that in 2003 Russia has offered Serbia and Montenegro overhaul of its MiG-29s to be paid by compensating the Russian debt to Belgrade. At that time, this option was considered unnecessary investment by Belgrade and was promptly rejected. Now, the MiG-29 overhaul is again on the table, thought this time Belgrade could be asked to pay for it.

Most experts In Belgrade believes that keeping the MiG-29s in service is far better solution than investing in old and less-effective MiG-21 fighters. Moreover, they are convinced that MiG-29 days are anyway counted and in the foreseeable future Serbia and Montenegro will need to initiate process of replacement of Soviet-era fighters with some more-advanced multirole Western-made aircraft. This is all in line with the claims by a reliable source within the Serbian-Montenegrin military who has told the author of this article that at the end there will be no overhauls for the MiG-29 fleet and instead of that the MiG-21 will be kept on a 24-hour alert at Batajnica air force base before they are retired and replaced by some more-advanced multirole Western-made aircraft in the first half of the next decade.
Igor Božinovski

[Resurrection]

*Shouts* Gripen, Gripen, Gripen! ;)

[Thor]

*Shouts* Gripen, Gripen, Gripen! ;)
I think this would be more of an F-16 deal though..

[Resurrection]

I'm Swedish, it's not like I'd be shouting F-16, F-16, F-16! But then again, sometimes you're forced to think realistically.

[Uninen]

With 5 MiG-29s of which 4 are combat capable variants you really dont do that much, at least 10-20 times the ammount would be needed to have anykind of credible deterrent.. :|

[cinoeye]

*Shouts* Gripen, Gripen, Gripen! ;)

Yep, your are right.
They are several indicators that S&Mn will go with SAABs.
On a positive side is: Lot's of public will be upset(1999 bombing) if they order USA planes. Also f-16 are used, and Gripens wil be new.
Cost of buying and keeping tham in shape is lower than F's.
Promo documentary show it all. Gripen lands on a highway, refuled, armed..(with only 3 man)and good to go up in just a several minutes(wile the pilot goes to pee;)

[Rictor]

5 MiGs?!

Serbia seriously needs to find itself a rich businessman sugar-daddy. :):)

Find some billionare to do his duty to the mother country and throw in a few hundred million for our airforce.

[nick_ua]

Yep, your are right.
They are several indicators that S&Mn will go with SAABs.
On a positive side is: Lot's of public will be upset(1999 bombing) if they order USA planes. Also f-16 are used, and Gripens wil be new.

Who said they are actually considering something else, like Saabs or even F16.
What are these indicators, where did you see them, do you see other stuff too.

[Argyll]

don't post titles all in Caps......forum rules

[shadower]

I noticed I made mistake.
Sorry bro!

[CyberSpec]

The Grippen is the best choice for a country the size of S & M.

I can't see any reason to go for the F-16's. It would make a lot more sense to stick with the MIG-29 with which they're already familiar.

The Grippen is ideal for the type of warfare that is favoured by the S & M military, a combination of conventional and guerilla fighting with it's ability to land on roads and so on. As neutral countries, the ex YUG and Sweden had similar defence strategies during the cold war.

What sort of fighter they opt for in the future also depends on what sort of government Serbia has in the future. If the right wing Radical Party gains power (it's the most popular party at present) you can probably forget about any western aircraft.

[cinoeye]

Choosing the new plane is not only economical, but also geo-strategic and political desition.
Lobying and political pressure is the reality of this process.
Russian jets are logical selection, because SE&MN AF pilots, mechanics... already have expiriance with those systems.
BUt they are very expencive.
Also that selection will make USA and NATO mad, and can hurt Serbian chances to join NATO.
Any selection of F-16 is unlogical, expencive and it will be a clear product of US political pressure.
Serbia(YUG) lately didn't use any US aircraft, since the 60's. In exeption of some Bell helicopters.
Every time when there is discution about new jets, the 3rd player is always put in to the play. Politicians, generals always give a chance to a Swedes.
They are relaible, cheap(r), defence concept of two countries is similar, and there is a long tradition in industrial cooperation.
Also, Swedes are lobying and campaining a lot in Serbia.

Look at this intersting Yug-Swe concept from the 1980's named Novi Avion(New Airplane).
http://www.airserbia.com/slike/razno/na/NA-supersonik_11.jpg
http://www.airserbia.com/slike/razno/na/NA-supersonik_12.jpg
http://www.airserbia.com/slike/razno/na/NA-supersonik_08.jpg

[shadower]

http://afwing.com/intro/novi.htm

[AN_TPS_63A]

Choosing the new plane is not only economical, but also geo-strategic and political desition.
Lobying and political pressure is the reality of this process.
Russian jets are logical selection, because SE&MN AF pilots, mechanics... already have expiriance with those systems.
BUt they are very expencive.
Also that selection will make USA and NATO mad, and can hurt Serbian chances to join NATO.
Any selection of F-16 is unlogical, expencive and it will be a clear product of US political pressure.
Serbia(YUG) lately didn't use any US aircraft, since the 60's. In exeption of some Bell helicopters.
Every time when there is discution about new jets, the 3rd player is always put in to the play. Politicians, generals always give a chance to a Swedes.
They are relaible, cheap(r), defence concept of two countries is similar, and there is a long tradition in industrial cooperation.
Also, Swedes are lobying and campaining a lot in Serbia.

Look at this intersting Yug-Swe concept from the 1980's named Novi Avion(New Airplane).
http://www.airserbia.com/slike/razno/na/NA-supersonik_11.jpg
http://www.airserbia.com/slike/razno/na/NA-supersonik_12.jpg
http://www.airserbia.com/slike/razno/na/NA-supersonik_08.jpg


AFAK that was cooperation with a General Dynamics, and that did'nt went further from the mock up cockpit ;-)

[CyberSpec]

I'm pretty sure the "Novi Avion" project was based on the Rafale.

Talk about a missed opportunity:cantbeli:

[Rictor]

In terms of cost, how much does a Grippen go for? I've read that Su-30s are about 33-35 million a piece, for a very competent fourth generation multirole fighter. I can't imagine Western plane being much cheaper than that, though again I don't know specifically for the Grippen.

[AN_TPS_63A]

In terms of cost, how much does a Grippen go for? I've read that Su-30s are about 33-35 million a piece, for a very competent fourth generation multirole fighter. I can't imagine Western plane being much cheaper than that, though again I don't know specifically for the Grippen.

Pretty expensive toys. Poorer country will be better served if they build a new university building, or nice shiny public toilet :-)

[Zvucni Efekti]

JAS-39As went for around $20 million a piece in the late 90's, the newer Cs and Ds, plus inflation, are probably ~$28-32 million a piece. Good choice, especialy for a smaller nation where their shorter range isn't really an issue.

[Lazarou]

http://www.airserbia.com/slike/razno/na/NA-supersonik_11.jpg

Isn't that an F-18 burning in the backround? :)

[Ogi]

JAS-39As went for around $20 million a piece in the late 90's, the newer Cs and Ds, plus inflation, are probably ~$28-32 million a piece. Good choice, especialy for a smaller nation where their shorter range isn't really an issue.


It is not that simple. We were buying Russian jets for the last 40 years and the change for western technology would be very expensive, unreliable and STUPID! First we would have to buy new tools, new equipment and retrain our technicians for western technology and that would cost a lot of money. Second we can get much better SU-30's from Russia, for not much bigger price. Third and most important, Russia always was and always will be our ally. West was never and will never be Serbian ally and in case of any war Sweden and U.S. are probably last countries which would deliver us the spare parts. The hell, U.S. is probably the most likely of all to be in war with Serbia so buying U.S. jets would be idiotic, just as buying German planes was before WWII when they delivered us useless spare parts just before the war. From Russia we can get spare parts with or without sanctions. Fourth, it is stupid for Serbia to buy jets altogether in current situation. For one, we don't have enough money to buy larger number of jets and buying 20-30 of them won't make the difference since NATO will always be able to bring in 20-30 times more jets and therefore anihilate our air force. Buying Russian S-300 Triumf or S-400 would be much safer. We already proved that we are masters of camouflage, and we can always hide those SAM's and constantly inflict casualties on NATO. For 20-30 SU-30's we could buy a 2-3 batteries of S-400 which would be much more effective and much cheaper on the long run.

[Thor]

Well, SU-30 isn't any better.

If I was a nationalistic serbian leader seeing a possible war with NATO in the future I would probably go for russian equipment because of support, but if Serbia wants to integrate with Europe that's not really a good strategy.

[Ogi]

Well, SU-30 isn't any better.

If I was a nationalistic serbian leader seeing a possible war with NATO in the future I would probably go for russian equipment because of support, but if Serbia wants to integrate with Europe that's not really a good strategy.

Integrate with Europe??? We were never part of that Europe. We were always part of the Eastern Europe, and the current obssesion with EU is just a delusion which will be shattered once Serbs realize that. Most of European countries think of us as of some uneducated animals, and their policy toward us is best represented by the Hague Court and their policy of centralization in Bosnia, but decentralization for Kosovo. Only fools believe that alliance between Serbia and western countries is possible on the long run, and that is not because Serbs but because of EU's, especially German, policy toward us. With Russia we have much closer ties. We are both Slavs, we are both Orthodox and we are very similar in behavior etc. When did Russians slaughter hundreds of thousands of Serbs, like Germans did in WWII? When did Russians support Ottoman Empire against us? Were maybe the Russians those who bombed us in WWII, even though we were allies, like Americans did it? NO! They were always on our side and they always will be, so why try to make an alliance with Germans when we have nothing common and no common interest? Therefore, it is much better to buy Russian weapons, which is excellent and cheap.

[Thor]

Everyone on mp.net is somewhat nationalistic.

I was simply showing the options, not telling you what to do.

[Ogi]

Everyone on mp.net is somewhat nationalistic.

I was simply showing the options, not telling you what to do.

Pretty much everyone in the world is somewhat nationalistic. Nationalism is probably the strongest social force in the world. I'm just trying to be a student of history, and history tells you that Serbia is likely to fight against West, therefore it would be stupid to buy western weapons. It is very simple. Why doesen't Spain buy Su-30's? Or maybe Japan? After all it proved to be better than F-15. It is because they are American allies, and buying Russian stuff wouldn't be smart.

[Thor]

I believe Spain buys Eurofighter..

The best thing is to have your own industry.

[Ogi]

I believe Spain buys Eurofighter..

The best thing is to have your own industry.

Pardon me for using Spain as an example. I thought more of their F-18's but never mind. You get the point.

Serbia is too small in order to develop fighters that could rival Eurofighter or F-15. I think our tanks, artillery, AT rockets etc. are pretty decent, and our small arms could rival the best guns in the world. M-70 is probably still probably one of the best guns in the world, and probably one of the most reliable, if not the most reliable assault rifle in the world. I've seen people use it for 4 years in worst conditions imaginable, and it would never fail. However, as I said, fighters are out of our league.

[CyberSpec]

I believe Spain buys Eurofighter..

The best thing is to have your own industry.
Being self reliant as much as possible was the policy before the break up.

But building fighter planes is not an option for Serbia in the foreseable future. The ex-YUG was getting close to achieving that status but the war put an end to that.

They have made some progress since the Kosovo war in reviving some projects for the ground forces and possibly export.

The biggest project so far, being the upgrading of the M-84 (T-72 variant) tank to T-90 level using local components as much as possible, which Kuwait has purchased.

However, the current government is not friendly towards the armed forces and has made some really silly decissions. The latest being the debate whether to buy Israeli assault rifles (to honour a debt). If the deal goes through, it will effectively bury the production of the local M-21 assault rifle, which is favoured by the Army and has good export potential

---------

Ogi,

I mostly agree with you in regards to the direction Serbia should take, but to completely ignore the EU is not possible at present. Personally I doubt that the EU will survive in it's present form by the time Serbia becomes eligible to join, so the whole debate might turn out to be a mute point.

[Ogi]

Ogi,

I mostly agree with you in regards to the direction Serbia should take, but to completely ignore the EU is not possible at present. Personally I doubt that the EU will survive in it's present form by the time Serbia becomes eligible to join, so the whole debate might turn out to be a mute point.


I agree, but we should never buy their weapons. Try to cooperate in economy and bussines but militarily we should stick to Russia.

[CyberSpec]

I agree, but we should never buy their weapons. Try to cooperate in economy and bussines but militarily we should stick to Russia.

That's my view as well.

[Rictor]

Yeah, Russia should realize that Serbia is one of the most pro-Russian anti-US nations in the region, and lend a hand militarily. I remember when Germany sold Poland MiG-29s from their inventory at $1 per unit. Wishful thinking, probably. I agree that Russian equipment is not only a better deal, and Serbia has techinicians who are used to the tech, but Russia will likely never shaft us when it comes to maintenance. For example, Venezuela bought F-16s back in the day, and now the US refuses to send them spare parts or upgrade the planes.

By the way, which Israeli rifles is Serbia thinking of buying? Probably Galil's, though when it comes to small arms you can get the same functionality out of a local product, and ought to support the industry.

[perdurabo]

Pretty much everyone in the world is somewhat nationalistic. Nationalism is probably the strongest social force in the world. I'm just trying to be a student of history, and history tells you that Serbia is likely to fight against West, therefore it would be stupid to buy western weapons. It is very simple. Why doesen't Spain buy Su-30's? Or maybe Japan? After all it proved to be better than F-15. It is because they are American allies, and buying Russian stuff wouldn't be smart.
check map, you are souronded by EU/NATO or future EU/NATO countries, but you know what? moust of europeans don't like you, so stick with russians, we'll just put niece fence around you.p-)

[Metak]

By the way, which Israeli rifles is Serbia thinking of buying? Probably Galil's, though when it comes to small arms you can get the same functionality out of a local product, and ought to support the industry.

No, it's tavor rifle. If a murky political deal obligates us to buy Israeli equipment then it is better to take communication equipment or something else than rifles because we produce quite small weapons.

[Brute]

Buying Russian S-300 Triumf or S-400 would be much safer. We already proved that we are masters of camouflage, and we can always hide those SAM's and constantly inflict casualties on NATO. For 20-30 SU-30's we could buy a 2-3 batteries of S-400 which would be much more effective and much cheaper on the long run.


Agreed. Buying several S-400 batteries would be a smarter choice in the long run. They're anti-AWACS and, supposedly, anti-stealth too... p-) :grin:

[Ogi]

check map, you are souronded by EU/NATO or future EU/NATO countries, but you know what? moust of europeans don't like you, so stick with russians, we'll just put niece fence around you.p-)

Trust me I am aware of it, but times change and EU as well as NATO won't last forever. You won't put fence arround us, you already did it, and not only that but also destroyed our infrastructure and industry, but we are still alive and stronger than most countries arround us. Once Russia gets its strenght back we will be fine. If I were you I would worry more about billion and a half Chinese than about 10 million Serbs.

[cinoeye]

check map, you are souronded by EU/NATO or future EU/NATO countries, but you know what? moust of europeans don't like you, so stick with russians, we'll just put niece fence around you.p-)
Where did you gety the info, that Europeans don't like us?

[AN_TPS_63A]

Integrate with Europe??? We were never part of that Europe. We were always part of the Eastern Europe, and the current obssesion with EU is just a delusion which will be shattered once Serbs realize that. Most of European countries think of us as of some uneducated animals, and their policy toward us is best represented by the Hague Court and their policy of centralization in Bosnia, but decentralization for Kosovo. Only fools believe that alliance between Serbia and western countries is possible on the long run, and that is not because Serbs but because of EU's, especially German, policy toward us. With Russia we have much closer ties. We are both Slavs, we are both Orthodox and we are very similar in behavior etc. When did Russians slaughter hundreds of thousands of Serbs, like Germans did in WWII? When did Russians support Ottoman Empire against us? Were maybe the Russians those who bombed us in WWII, even though we were allies, like Americans did it? NO! They were always on our side and they always will be, so why try to make an alliance with Germans when we have nothing common and no common interest? Therefore, it is much better to buy Russian weapons, which is excellent and cheap.





Integrate with Europe??? We were never part of that Europe. We were always part of the Eastern Europe, and the current obssesion with EU is just a delusion which will be shattered once Serbs realize that.

Wake up dude, Eastern Europe is 100 % under american influence.
And watch those hungarians and romanians in the next 50 years how fast they will trade US for China as a protector :)))


When did Russians slaughter hundreds of thousands of Serbs, like Germans did in WWII?

It was a hard labour of the quiet croatian or bosnian moslem neighbour who never talked politics with serbs when they drink beer together.


They were always on our side and they always will be, so why try to make an alliance with Germans when we have nothing common and no common interest?

Why not? There's one milion serbs living in the germany - it's pretty significant bond?

[AN_TPS_63A]

Yeah, Russia should realize that Serbia is one of the most pro-Russian anti-US nations in the region, and lend a hand militarily. I remember when Germany sold Poland MiG-29s from their inventory at $1 per unit. Wishful thinking, probably. I agree that Russian equipment is not only a better deal, and Serbia has techinicians who are used to the tech, but Russia will likely never shaft us when it comes to maintenance. For example, Venezuela bought F-16s back in the day, and now the US refuses to send them spare parts or upgrade the planes.

By the way, which Israeli rifles is Serbia thinking of buying? Probably Galil's, though when it comes to small arms you can get the same functionality out of a local product, and ought to support the industry.



By the way, which Israeli rifles is Serbia thinking of buying? Probably Galil's, though when it comes to small arms you can get the same functionality out of a local product, and ought to support the industry.

Serbia has the arms factory which is the 150 years old, and I guess that would be pretty stupid. It's better to buy some SIGINT equipment.

[AN_TPS_63A]

check map, you are souronded by EU/NATO or future EU/NATO countries, but you know what? moust of europeans don't like you, so stick with russians, we'll just put niece fence around you.p-)



check map, you are souronded by EU/NATO or future EU/NATO countries, but you know what? moust of europeans don't like you, so stick with russians, we'll just put niece fence around you.

You are not european, you're former russian servant :-) Now you advanced to butler status :)))

[AN_TPS_63A]

Where did you gety the info, that Europeans don't like us?

Tell him that the Goethe learned serbian :) Maybe to warn the thiefs to stay away from his pocket? :)))

Njet krast moje teskoje zarajdne dojtch mark!!!! :PP

[mack pl]

You are not european, you're former russian servant :-) Now you advanced to butler status :)))

wow, that was deep.....

[mack pl]

Njet krast moje teskoje zarajdne dojtch mark!!!! :PP

nie kradnij moich ciężko zarobionych niemieckich marek?


damn, Slavic languages are very similar

[cinoeye]

Where do you get those ideas how Serbs hate US?
Thrie histiry, Serbia always used to be allies with the US and western countries.
Where did you get idea that all Serbs hate the USA?
I know now more people in Spain , France or UK that hate USA as well.

[SerbPVO]

I agree, but we should never buy their weapons. Try to cooperate in economy and bussines but militarily we should stick to Russia.


Why shouldn't we buy weapons from a country like France? Or Greece? Or neutral Sweden?

I'm pro-Russian like majority of Serbs, but i see no reason to limit ourselves.
Personally, for me the best option would be joint development of a light fighter jet, possibly with either Romania, Bulgaria or both. Ukraine too, as they themselves are considering this option. Czech Republic has a lot of experience here as well.

So, just like we did with Orao fighter;)

[AN_TPS_63A]

Where do you get those ideas how Serbs hate US?
Thrie histiry, Serbia always used to be allies with the US and western countries.
Where did you get idea that all Serbs hate the USA?
I know now more people in Spain , France or UK that hate USA as well.

I don't know, the last US ambassador zimmerman in SFRJ wrote in the Foreign Affairs magazine that the serbs really like americans, can't remember why.
Personally I've used US military equipment , and I will reccomend it to others :D

[AN_TPS_63A]

nie kradnij moich ciężko zarobionych niemieckich marek?


damn, Slavic languages are very similar

Yes, i knew one polish guy - he could
easy understand many words, like for example "Stara pizda" ;))))

[AN_TPS_63A]

wow, that was deep.....


Sorry, to you polish guys, I went too far.

[AN_TPS_63A]

No, it's tavor rifle. If a murky political deal obligates us to buy Israeli equipment then it is better to take communication equipment or something else than rifles because we produce quite small weapons.


I don't have anything against deals with Israel, but I think the parlament should take care about military contracts.

[AN_TPS_63A]

Personally, for me the best option would be joint development of a light fighter jet, possibly with either Romania, Bulgaria or both. Ukraine too, as they themselves are considering this option. Czech Republic has a lot of experience here as well.

So, just like we did with Orao fighter


It's cheaper to buy used F-16 or even rent them - orao is pretty bad example.

[Lokos]

If Tavor is brought in, the M21 goes bye-bye. Bad news for the VSCG... I don't think they'll go through with it.

Lokos

[CyberSpec]

If Tavor is brought in, the M21 goes bye-bye. Bad news for the VSCG... I don't think they'll go through with it.

Lokos

I think the latest in this saga is that the Tavor won't be bought.

Aparently, the union management at Zastava were the one's that pressed the "panic" button regarding the rifle deal and were threatening to go on strike.

Haven't the Macedonian Army already ordered the M-21?

[Lokos]

I think so, but we need it, too.

Zastava DEPENDS on us needing it in quantity. The Macos are ordering, AFAIK, but not in any great numbers.

Lokos

[cinoeye]

Some pictures from the better times. in Serbian and YUg aviation history.
Royal pilot

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/avijacija/yugo-main.jpg

Royal marking
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/avijacija/oznakakrst.gif

WW1

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/farmser.jpg


ROyal Hurricane-
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/bild36.jpg


US F84d in the Yugoslav airforce-the only red star on the USA airplane ever!!!
COmmy marking
http://photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/avijacija/th_JRV-zvezda.gif

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/f84d.jpg

SOme of tham still with US unit markings
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/f84c.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/f84b.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/f84a.jpg

Post Commy markings(GIVE US BACK ROYAL MARKINGS!!!)
http://photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/policija/th_RV_mala.gif
MI-24
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/95295342DNjnOE_ph.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/2521.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/avijacija/J-1.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/avijacija/mig29yu.jpg

[PaulClift]

Theres an article about this airforce in this months airforces monthly magazine.

The mig29's have not flown since april 1st 2004 but are maintained well, I cant see them being able to buy anything in as a replacement if they cant afford to run what they have.

[Rictor]

Sad but true. Though anything is better than contracting out the defence of your sovereign airspace.

Somehow, I doubt the Tavor is even being considered, given that it's not widely deployed yet even within the IDF, so the chances of another country getting the rifle first are slim.

[AN_TPS_63A]

http://misheli.image.pbase.com/u23/vmarinkovic/large/33082723.F86Ar.jpg

[Little Johnny]

Mig 29 kona?no na remontu

Beograd, 20.januar 2006 -– U ovoj godini zapo?e?emo remont pet migova 29 i jedan avion an 26. Naš cilj je da naše nebo ?uvaju naši avioni, da naši piloti budu obu?avani u našim akademijama i da po svim me?unarodnim propisima naše snage ?uvaju naš vazdušni prostor – istakao je Zoran Stankovi?, ministar odbrane, tokom ju?erašnje posete vazduhoplovnim snagama u Batajnici.

„?injenica je da je vazduhoplovstvo u proteklom periodu imalo težak period”, rekao je ministar, „u prošloj godini zabeležen je izuzetno mali broj letova, ali se nadam da ?emo u ovoj godini obezbediti traženih ?etiri do pet hiljada tona goriva”. On je izrazio nadu da ?e to biti novi po?etak, odnosno nastavak rada i funkcionisanja našeg vazduhoplovstva.

Stankovi? je objasnio da je ve? obezbe?en deo sredstava za remonte i modernizaciju aviona od 10 miliona evra iz fonda za prodaju vojne imovine. Osim stranih, koristi?e se i naši remontni kapaciteti u ovom poslu, pre svega u Remontnom zavodu „Moma Stanojlovi?”.

http://www.info.gov.yu/saveznavlada/list_detalj.php?tid=5&idteksta=14464

Transation:
The defense minister says that Serbia will begin overhaul and modernization of Mig-29s this year. The work will be done in "Moma Stanojlovic" facility. He says that the goal is to maintain the capability to police our own airspace, and to maintain the capability to train our own pilots from start to finish. 2005 was a very bad year for the AF because of lack of funds to buy enough fuel. The minister promised there will be sufficient fuel this year.

It doesn't say anything about what type of modernization will be done on the Migs. Another article also mentioned purchase of more Mig-29s but the defense minister didn't say anything about that.

[cinoeye]

On January 19, Serbia and Montenegro Minister of Defence, Zoran Stankovic, has visited the Air Force and Air Defence units based at Batajnica air force base, located some 20 km north-west of the capital Belgrade. In that occasion, Minister Stankovic revealed that his Ministry has secured several million Euros that will be used this year for overhaul and modernization of Serbian-Montenegrin MiG-29 fighters, as well as for An-26 Curl transport planes.

Defence Minister Stankovic told journalists at Batajnica that the overhaul and modernization of the MiG-29s will be performed in Russia and will also include low-level involvement of Serbia-Montenegro Air Force Institute "Moma Stanojlovic". He did not explain what kind of modernization is planed for the MiG-29 fighters but it is believed that it will be very limited equipping of the planes with NATO/ICAO-compatible communication, navigation and identification equipment required for participation on NATO/Partnership for Peace (PfP) exercises.

Speaking about the future of the Serbian and Montenegrin Air Force, Defence Minister Stankovic also revealed his intentions to ask the Serbian Ministry of Interior to hand over to the Air Force its two Mi-17 Hip-H helicopters and two Mi-24V Hind-E combat helicopters that have been extensively used until 2003 by the Serbian Ministry of Interior State Security Directorate. Those helicopters are now grounded and waiting for overhaul that Serbia-Montenegrin Ministry of Defence is interested to finance if the Serbian Ministry of Interior agrees to transfer these helicopters to Serbian-Montenegrin military.

Can we fix this one;)
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/mig29nikolic05.jpg

[cinoeye]

Interview with SERBIAN pilot





http://www.aeronautics.ru/n/nikolic01.jpg







Major Nikolic is a member of the Knights squadron of Yugoslavia's air defense forces, operating MiG-29s.




"When the first NATO air strike started, the attackers were confronted by the heroic "Knights" squadron
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v368/postal_dude/Vitezovi127.jpg
One of them was major Nebojsa Nikolic
When the radar screens of the YA Air Defense started blinking indicating the arrival of an airborne armada on March 24th, the first squadron that was sent up to counter the attack were the men of the King Lazar's Knights squadron. For their conduct in battle all of them have received the Medal for Courage and have been promoted to a higher rank. As soon as I took off - says Maj. Nebojsa Nikolic - I noticed the glow of explosions on my left and on my right. - in the direction of Pancevo and Ruma. My MiG was climbing rapidly and soon I could see the same scene in the direction of Novi Sad. Flying above me were about two dozen state-of-the-art enemy planes. Cutting across the Panonian plane with their destination Belgrade they were unloading their deadly cargo. Astonished by my presence and my determination to cut them off, they quickly turned against me like a pack.
I had only just taken off and those are the most difficult conditions for a dogfight. "To be an effective means of defense a combat aircraft must reach adequate speed and altitude." Say all manuals.
After the take off I headed towards northern Vojvodina and evaded the first enemy missile. I switched my on-board radar on and armed my arsenal. Just as I did it I had to maneuver to avoid another enemy air-to air missile.
Then came a third one straight form a pack of 24 enemy planes. I wonder whether any well-paid and insured western pilot would take his chances with two of our planes let alone two dozen. Although they are denying their losses, it’s a known fact that the Yugoslav skies have become a graveyard for western planes and pilots. This is mostly due to the fact that we fight with our heart and with the determination to are defend our country, and they are doing it for money and a with life insurance.
When I selected one as my target on the radar and positioned my jet accordingly, I launched what we call a "small" missile. I did not manage to verify the hit, because my MiG 29 was hit in that moment. The fighter turned into a torch. The flames enveloped the cockpit. Because of the smoke and the flames I could not see either the instruments or anything outside. At that point I was at an altitude of 3000 meters over the town of Titel and I was heading north towards Zrenjanin. My trusted MiG, the plane I’ve flying for more than ten years, was heading down. When I reached the altitude of about 2000 meters I decided to catapult myself out of the burning jet. As I was gliding down with my parachute, enemy planes kept circling around me trying to locate me in the dark and riddle me with bullets. They kept firing blindly, fortunately missing me and for this I am very eager to meet with them again. I landed in the middle of a field some 400 meters away from my burning MiG. The flames were illuminating the entire area so I quickly moved away to escape the persistent NATO pilots from locating me and killing me. In the darkness of the nigh I found refuge in an irrigation trench.
Having spent several hours hiding and trying to reach the town of Senta, he decided to turn back towards the wreck where he was found by our rescue teams and taken back to the airport.
The pilots from my squadron were overwhelmed with joy when they saw I was alive and well. After a short debriefing I was transferred to the Military Medical Academy for a check-up. It was almost three in the morning when I finally called my wife Olga. It was dawning when she and my older daughter Sonja came to visit me.
A few days later the younger daughter, 11-years-old Tanja finally had a chance to embrace her daddy. Major Nikolic was discharged from the hospital and sent home. He contacted his "Knights" immediately and offered to join the squadron. "Rest a bit, we have sufficient crews to take on the NATO campaign" – he was told.
Since major Nikolic came home from the hospital, the telephone is constantly ringing. Friends keep calling to hear how he feels. Just the other day, when he went to buy some groceries and the daily papers, a lady in her late seventies recognized him and asked if she could hug him. Her motherly kiss was a special medal for this brave member of the "Knights": squadron."
(source: Yugoslav Army Supreme Command Headquarters - Information Service, April 1999)

WE WILL FLY AGAIN-SERBIAN KNIGHTS




http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/jrvipvo_mig-29_114.jpg

[Kilgor]

As I was gliding down with my parachute, enemy planes kept circling around me trying to locate me in the dark and riddle me with bullets. They kept firing blindly, fortunately missing me and for this I am very eager to meet with them again. ]

Nato aircraft trying to strafe him and his open chute in the dark at high speeds. Wow, they must be the best pilots in the world.

Does anyone believe that ?

:roll:

[Lazarou]

I did not manage to verify the hit

That's an interesting way to say "i missed". He should become a politician.


Nato aircraft trying to strafe him and his open chute in the dark at high speeds. Wow, they must be the best pilots in the world.

Does anyone believe that ?

:roll:

No. And besides, it's illegal to engage ejected pilots.

[Kilgor]

That's an interesting way to say "i missed". He should become a politician.



No. And besides, it's illegal to engage ejected pilots.

More like near impossible in the dark and in modern fighters.

Probably AA comming up, wildly trying to hit nato jets.

[Ogi]

That's an interesting way to say "i missed". He should become a politician.



No. And besides, it's illegal to engage ejected pilots.


Well it is illegal to bomb TV stations, as well as passanger trains, schools, heat plants...it is illegal to drop cluster bombs on market places etc. and NATO still did it, so it is clear that NATO didn't care about the legality of their acts so that wouldn't stop them. Maybe they were circling for some different reason and maybe they were circling for that reason.