PKM Vs M60 Vs MG-3

[Galil]

What would you choose to defend your bunker/house?
And to defend your helicopter?

PKM
http://world.guns.ru/machine/pk.jpg
or

M60

http://world.guns.ru/machine/m60.jpg

or

MG-3

http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg3.jpg
or FN-MAG

http://world.guns.ru/machine/fn_mag_g.jpg

[BiZ]

Umodified originals or PI varients (M60E3 etc)?

If the original with no product improvements is the go, then the MG-3 would be the order of the day, with a ****load of link and spares.


EDIT: Since the question now contains the FN-MAG, I'll change my answer to ever reliable and trusty MAG-58.

[Luno]

Hmm where is the FN-MAG? One of the best General Purpose Machinegun out on the market

[SEAHAWK]

Hmmm, to defend my bunker, house, MG-3. To defend my helicopter, PKM (as our special forces does ;))

[Freibier]

MG3 all the way

[ClydeFrog]

MG3... especially as a helicopter's doorgun it'll be the best of the three due to high rate of fire.

[dacanadianbomb]

Whatever weapons munitions/belts/parts are cheaply and readily available to me :-)

[SEAHAWK]

MG3... especially as a helicopter's doorgun it'll be the best of the three due to high rate of fire.

Yes, it sounds good. But MG-3 wouldn't be a reliable doorgun. Actually, it has been already a "sensitive" MG. Being a doorgun means, that gun must have a good resistance against very very cold air conditions. Once, I have seen a documantry which its name was "DAM BUSTERS". (probably you know) In that documanry it was mentioned that even an M-60 can have a problem at the door of a chopper due to cold air conditions. (that chopper was a Chinook) And it doesn't have to be very cold outside. Because of turbulance of rotary-wings and the speed of helicopter may cause this problem.:)

Anyway, MG-3 is an amazing MG. But I still prefer a more reliable MG to defend my helicopter.:)

[East Scout]

Mg3............

[RomanS]

Never shot the MG3, but I dont want 1200 rounds per minute on my machine gun. You will run out of ammo faster, and heat all your spare barrels.

I will take PKM over any machine gun in the world. I've shot it many times. I've also shot M60, FN MAG, SAW ...

In my opinion PKM is the best machine gun in the world. Its the most reliable, accurate, and you can equip it with supressor or any kind of scope if you feel like it.

PKM ALL THE WAY

There is a reason they call it a FULL AUTO DRAGUNOV

[Hydro]

IMO the MAG just pips the PKM. Disintegrating belt, less hassle. Both guns reliability is excellent.

Roman: Full auto Dragunov, a testament to the PKMs accuracy? What's the "beaten zone" like with a PKM? There's been talk of some machine guns (like the Bren LMG) being "too accurate" and not creating a decent beaten zone of fire.

[Major Maxillary]

It's a toss up between the M60 and the PKM for me.

On the one hand the PKM is supposedly more reliable, on the other the non-desintegrating link belts ate worthless.

if I could get a PKM modified to use desintegrating links, i'd go with that.


then there's the M60. Don't know alot about it, it's said to be tempermental, i don't know about that. but if I could, i'd have an M60E4. (http://www.contemporaryinsanity.org/content/view/537/49/)

[SEAHAWK]

Never shot the MG3, but I dont want 1200 rounds per minute on my machine gun. You will run out of ammo faster, and heat all your spare barrels.

I will take PKM over any machine gun in the world. I've shot it many times. I've also shot M60, FN MAG, SAW ...

In my opinion PKM is the best machine gun in the world. Its the most reliable, accurate, and you can equip it with supressor or any kind of scope if you feel like it.

PKM ALL THE WAY

There is a reason they call it a FULL AUTO DRAGUNOV

Hehehehe, I didn't know that.:D

[East Scout]

7.62x54 is the oldest military round still in service since 18-something. So that says something righ there

..Ide still take the MG3...

[PvtPyle]

I had access to all 4 guns for about 9 months. The M240 is a great gun, but too heavy for infantry. That extra weight in ammo is prefered by most. Thats why the MK-48 is such an eagerly anticipated weapon.

The M60 works great in helos, and there are still tons of them in service.

The PKM is one of the best MGs on the planet. I would take it over the other two any day of the week. In fact, we choose to mount two of them on our vehicles in place of the M240 or M60's.

The MG3 was a nice weapon, and fast as a raped ape. But I did not get a lot of experience with it while over there in regards to maintence. We are building two post samples right now, so I will be able to give a better review of it in a few months.

Roman, since I never see you over at the AK board, what is the optic for the rail on the PKM? I have a rail added to the feed try cover on one right now with an EO Tech on it and it rocks, but I have a rail we are installing on one of our guns and would like to find the correct optic for it.

[martinexsquaddie]

fn mag or gimpy never had a stoppage fireing live rounds only a pain fireing blanks.
once shot a barrel on SF till it glowed

[RomanS]

I had access to all 4 guns for about 9 months. The M240 is a great gun, but too heavy for infantry. That extra weight in ammo is prefered by most. Thats why the MK-48 is such an eagerly anticipated weapon.

The M60 works great in helos, and there are still tons of them in service.

The PKM is one of the best MGs on the planet. I would take it over the other two any day of the week. In fact, we choose to mount two of them on our vehicles in place of the M240 or M60's.

The MG3 was a nice weapon, and fast as a raped ape. But I did not get a lot of experience with it while over there in regards to maintence. We are building two post samples right now, so I will be able to give a better review of it in a few months.

Roman, since I never see you over at the AK board, what is the optic for the rail on the PKM? I have a rail added to the feed try cover on one right now with an EO Tech on it and it rocks, but I have a rail we are installing on one of our guns and would like to find the correct optic for it.

PvtPyle, long time no see. When did you get back from Afgan?

For the optic? I believe they put the old 1Pn58 on it. I've seen guys with PK-1 and 1PN51 on it.

[PvtPyle]

I've been home for a bit now. Finally got the gun business going.

I have an 1PN58, any ideas where to find a PK-1?

[BadKarma26]

http://www.certifiedcomputing.com/images/M240B.jpg

M240B all the way

[RomanS]

I've been home for a bit now. Finally got the gun business going.

I have an 1PN58, any ideas where to find a PK-1?

http://www.rusmilitary.com/html/sight_pk-01.htm

maybe tantal? I haven't talked to Doug in a century.

How was it? Took a lot of photos? Still collecting uniforms?

[PvtPyle]

It was awesome. I would love to go back. I picked up about a dozen new uniforms from coalition forces while I was there.

The gun thing has really slowed down my uniform collecting. It seems that all additional income finds its way back into the business. On the upside, I am getting a really good collection of NFA stuff. We have 2 DShK's in the works now, one semi, the other post 86.

How are things with you?

[RomanS]

It was awesome. I would love to go back. I picked up about a dozen new uniforms from coalition forces while I was there.

The gun thing has really slowed down my uniform collecting. It seems that all additional income finds its way back into the business. On the upside, I am getting a really good collection of NFA stuff. We have 2 DShK's in the works now, one semi, the other post 86.

How are things with you?

Things are good. Nice, DSHKs hehehhehe. You lucky bastards. Were are you getting the ammo for it?

Im going back to Russia in August for 3 weeks. this one will be another LIFE TIME TRIPS.

Drop me your email or instant messanger in private message.

Sorry for offtopic all

[akd]

I'll take one of these please.

http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/webphoto/web_060115-N-9866B-003.jpg

[GazB]

I don't see why you can't develop disintegrating link for the PKM. Almost all aerial uses of the 7.62 x 54mmR calibre guns during WWI and WWII used disintegrating link belt feeds.

Surprised that there has been no bag developed to catch the belt as it comes out to stop it flapping around.

[GazB]

Just realised that the GShG-7.62 gatling gun used in some helicopter installations (Ka-29 assault helo) and gunpods probably uses disintegrating link already... though at 18.5kg is isn't a lightweight weapon it is self powered (ie gas powered) so you don't need a seperate power supply.. though you would need a large ammo drum as it has a variable rate of fire of between 3,000 and 6,000 rounds per minute from its four barrels.

[Bulabash]

FNMAG , nothing else :)

Im just Biased

[sergey31]

This one for me.... Mounted in the ceiling of my basement/bunker.
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/remotemg/fig3_panzer_mg_interior.jpg

[TacoDelRio]

FN MAG = M240B for me, if they gave that bitch a slightly shorter, lighter profile barrel, and a bag for boolits. That is, as a satanic home-defense gun! Not sustained fire with a light barrel! :)

[appslapp]

like this;)...the new swedish MG
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c152/appslapp/dscf21497309it.jpg

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Here's something for those of you who want to have a PKM with disintegrating belts... :)

http://www.zmt.tarnow.pl/produkcja_wojskowa/pkme.html

http://www.zmt.tarnow.pl/grafika/ukm_p.jpg
ukm wz.2000 or UKM 2000- a PKM modification chambered for 7,62x51 rounds and using standard NATO disitegrating belts...

[FW200]

Hmm, about the PKM scope.. I recently saw this picture of 76th Guards Airborne on their trip to China:

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/9011/xinsrc49208022518165934002104l.jpg

If you look in the background, you can see a Pecheneg with a scope, from the look of it, it might be the 1P29. The 1P29 has a elevation cam for the PKM so that would make sense..
The guy in front also has a 1P29 on his Ak-74M..

[RomanS]

Do You Have A High Res Of This Photo?

[Jippo]

If you look in the background, you can see a Pecheneg with a scope, from the look of it, it might be the 1P29.

"but the standard sight is the SPP telescope sight, with 3-6X variable magnification and built-in rangefinding reticle."

http://world.guns.ru/machine/nsv-12_7.jpg

http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg02-e.htm


-jippo

[FW200]

Sorry, don't have a high-res one available.
I do have another, sadly not as high-res but it shows that the scope is quite high on the Pecheneg :
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/7559/0ded7ab76kb.jpg

Reason for me thinking it's a pecheneg: carrying handle, bipod at the front instead of at the gastube, box mag like on the PKM.
Sorry for pushing the thread offtopic..

[RomanS]

More please

[Hydro]

Is that 1P29 a copy of the British SUIT?

[FW200]

Yes, it has some modifications for use on Ak style weapons but it's basicly the same. It also features an interchangable elevation cam for 3 rifles (Ak-74, RPK-74 and PKM).

I do not have any other pictures atm, those 2 were the only ones showing the scope in use on a pecheneg. Offcourse, I could be wrong, it might be another sight. I'm only human ;)

[Major Maxillary]

Here's something for those of you who want to have a PKM with disintegrating belts... :)

http://www.zmt.tarnow.pl/produkcja_wojskowa/pkme.html

http://www.zmt.tarnow.pl/grafika/ukm_p.jpg
ukm wz.2000 or UKM 2000- a PKM modification chambered for 7,62x51 rounds and using standard NATO disitegrating belts...


We have ourselves a winner!

[Michael RVR]

I've never used anything bar the Mag 58, but wouldn't have any problem choosing it. Keep it lubed up and with a decent supply of barrels and i reckon they'd keep firing forever ;)

[GazB]

Just looking at the photos shown of the Pecheneg I'd guess it is either the 1P-29 sight, which is intended for use on the AK-74N, RPK-74N and PKMN weapons... so use on the Pecheneg makes sense too, or I thought it might have been the 1PN93-3 as this night sight is specially designed for 7.62 x 54 weapons like SVD and PKM... of course these pictures are day time pics so the 1P-29 makes rather more sense. (1PN93-3 uses either a 2+ or 3 generation Image Intensification tube)

V nice pics BTW.


We have ourselves a winner!

Nice, but how could it be considered a winner? The people that currently use PKMs can't use it because they dont' use that calibre, and the people who do use that calibre aren't going to use a Russian weapon are they?

[RomanS]

I love how GazB educates us all with just a little bit of words.

Thank you GAZ for every informative post you post. I and many of my friends here appreciate your input and support for our side! ! !

Cheers bro!

I will be firing Pecheneg with my friends this summer. StukaJr and I will document this event in depth!

[Onkel]

I'll go with the FN MAG.

[TacoDelRio]

FN Mk 48
http://www.fnmfg.com/products/m249fam/mk48mod0.gif
http://www.fnmfg.com/products/m249fam/mk48mod0.htm
Caliber: 7.62 mm NATO
Barrel: 4.59 lbs.
Overall Weight: 18.26 lbs.
Barrel Length: 19.75 in.
Rate of Fire: 710 ± 50 rds/min (Cylic)
Range: 3600 m (Max.)
800 m (Max. Effective)

19lbs unloaded? Doesn't sound right.

[GazB]

Sorry to raise a dead thread, but:


I will be firing Pecheneg with my friends this summer. StukaJr and I will document this event in depth!

When you do could you check something for me?

According to Rosoboronexport (the Russian international trading organistation):


Pecheneg can fire all types of 7.62x54mm rounds. The weapon is fed from a 25- or 50-round disintegrating metal belt. Loaded belts are transported in boxes for 100 and 200 rounds each.


If this is correct doesn't that change a few things? ie you can run around with 25 rounds attached to the gun, or you can have 4 x 25 round belts or 2 x 50 round belts in a 100 round box etc etc... with no empty belt slapping between your legs as you run.

Would very much appreciate some vids of your testing this weapon... the few bits I have seen it seems to be very accurate.

[GazB]

Just looked at some video of the Pecheneg and its seems to use non disintegrating link... :confused:

Perhaps it is an export option?

[Major Maxillary]

Nice, but how could it be considered a winner? The people that currently use PKMs can't use it because they dont' use that calibre, and the people who do use that calibre aren't going to use a Russian weapon are they?

Because I like the gun, and the non-disintegrating link belt was the only thhing that kept it out of my #1 place.

stop nitpicking.

[ShakesFIST]

FN Mk 48
http://www.fnmfg.com/products/m249fam/mk48mod0.gif
http://www.fnmfg.com/products/m249fam/mk48mod0.htm
Caliber: 7.62 mm NATO
Barrel: 4.59 lbs.
Overall Weight: 18.26 lbs.
Barrel Length: 19.75 in.
Rate of Fire: 710 ± 50 rds/min (Cylic)
Range: 3600 m (Max.)
800 m (Max. Effective)

19lbs unloaded? Doesn't sound right.

Sounds right to me. A regular SAW is like 14 unloaded. The Mk48 is also 7.62mm, has a rail system. 19 lbs. isnt bad for a 7.62 machine gun.

[GazB]

Because I like the gun, and the non-disintegrating link belt was the only thhing that kept it out of my #1 place.

stop nitpicking.

So if I said the US wanted to introduce a new tank in the 40 ton weight class to make it more transportable (which they do) and that they should therefore simply adopt the T-90 tank as their standard MBT and when the inevidible "there is no way the US will introduce a Russian tank into American service" replies come in, I can just state it is my own wet dream... stop nit picking, you'd be happy? Really?

Not suggesting you are wrong or anything... how can you be wrong over picking your own favourite thing, but telling me I am nitpicking because your choice is very unlikely to be widely adopted is a bit strange...

[BlackRain]

I had access to all 4 guns for about 9 months. The M240 is a great gun, but too heavy for infantry. That extra weight in ammo is prefered by most.

AH! Did you try the M240E6?

They are building a hybrid titanium/steel receiver for the M240B with a lightweight barrel assembly and trigger housing assembly.

This will make the M240 more portable.

Are you a FFL/SOT?

I collect NFA stuff myself.

[EsoognomEhT]

The GPMG eats trees.

[PvtPyle]

AH! Did you try the M240E6?

They are building a hybrid titanium/steel receiver for the M240B with a lightweight barrel assembly and trigger housing assembly.

This will make the M240 more portable.

Are you a FFL/SOT?

I collect NFA stuff myself.

No, we were home before they announced it was going to production. They would not have to waste the time and money if they would just go back to the stamper receiver across the board.

I am an SOT, but the period I am talking about I was the CJSOTF armorer in Afghanistan.

[Major Maxillary]

So if I said the US wanted to introduce a new tank in the 40 ton weight class to make it more transportable (which they do) and that they should therefore simply adopt the T-90 tank as their standard MBT and when the inevidible "there is no way the US will introduce a Russian tank into American service" replies come in, I can just state it is my own wet dream... stop nit picking, you'd be happy? Really?

Not suggesting you are wrong or anything... how can you be wrong over picking your own favourite thing, but telling me I am nitpicking because your choice is very unlikely to be widely adopted is a bit strange...

silly man, this isn't about who should adopt what, it's about which machine gun is preferred by who.

The PKM is more reliable, more acurate, and has better penitration than the M60, which is my second favorite machine gun. The only thing that i don't like about the PKM is one little annoying detail; the empty belt that drags along the ground. with the variants that use NATO belts the problem is eliminated. it could be scaled up to use the 7.62x54mm round with a new disintegrating link belt, too. who cares if nobody uses it? It's still there, and able to be used.

so saying that Russia won't use 7.62 NATO, and America won't use Russian gear is nitpicking, because it's not for them; it's for me. so I can marvel at all the alternatives in a healthy marketplace. A healthy marketplace of firearms.

And it's also irrelivent that I can't buy one. i wouldn't by one anyway. I just like having lots of Variety.


Nitpicking is when you try to bring largely worthless details to the forefront. tripping over an ancient ammo belt is not a nit.

[GazB]

silly man, this isn't about who should adopt what, it's about which machine gun is preferred by who.


Fair enough.


the empty belt that drags along the ground. with the variants that use NATO belts the problem is eliminated. it could be scaled up to use the 7.62x54mm round with a new disintegrating link belt, too.

As I already mentioned on this thread, the 7.62 x 54mm rimmed round has been widely used in Soviet and Russian aircraft in disintigrating link... including in the UltraShKAS, which fired at 2,700 rpm, so if that is the problem I doubt it would be necessary to change calibre or the PK very much to use DL.