British Army's Apache AH Mk1

[Beer Monster]

Don't think these have been posted before ...... sorry about the quality, came from the MOD Defence Image database (as if you hadn't noticed with the watermarks plastered everywhere) .....

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c62/beer_monster/1.jpg

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And some US AH64A's and Lynx ...... becasue I like the photo ...

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c62/beer_monster/39.jpg

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I see they've finally managed to find some money to train some pilots to fly them then.

These would be the Apaches that cost our esteemed MOD >4x as much per aircraft than if they had bought them direct from the US :roll:

[Beer Monster]

I see they've finally managed to find some money to train some pilots to fly them then.

These would be the Apaches that cost our esteemed MOD >4x as much per aircraft than if they had bought them direct from the US :roll:

Yes but look how shiny and new they are. Ooooohhhhh .......

[a_very_ex_STAB]

where did we get them from then??

Instead of buying them directly from the US the MOD bought them from Westland (who had to set up their own production facility in the UK) for a whopping £40 million per helicopter. End result no money for training the pilots.

If they'd bought them direct from the US they could have had 4x as many!

[budgie]

How many are they getting?

[Beer Monster]

Instead of buying them directly from the US the MOD bought them from Westland (who had to set up their own production facility in the UK) for a whopping £40 million per helicopter. End result no money for training the pilots.

If they'd bought them direct from the US they could have had 4x as many!


I thought it was about $60 million per aircraft?

IIRC money didn't have much to do with the lack of training for the pilots. Westland is in partnership with ATI Ltd (http://www.atil.co.uk/index.htm) who train the pilots. It took 2 years(?!) for ATIL to sign the training contract which cost the powers that be an extra $24 million! As soon as the contract was signed training began. It also took an 40% longer to train the UK pilots than was previously estimated. In the US it takes 15 weeks but in the UK it takes 20 weeks (reduced from 26) due to the uncertainties of the British weather (surprise surprise); the much more restricted airspace that exists in the United Kingdom compared with America; pilot sickness; any failures on the course; or that most American pilots had already flown earlier variants of the Apache (see the document at the bottom of this post). This caused a further 17-month delay.

You also have to remember that having the Westland facilities to rebuild/repair the aircraft in the UK (which we wouldn't have otherwise) will have potential savings of "£700 million in the support costs of in its projected 30 year life, possibly increasing to £1bn." (Quote from Globalsecurity.org)

In addition to GKN Westland, around 180 British companies benefit from the WAH-64 program, generating about 34,000 man years of work, equivalent to 3,000 jobs per year at the peak. The main UK sub-contractors are Rolls-Royce Turbomeca, Bristol; BAE Systems, Stanmore; Avimo, Taunton; Pilkington Optronics, Glasgow; Plessey Seimens, Christchurch; Hunting Engineering, Ampthill; Shorts Munitions, Belfast; and Royal Ordnance at Summerfield, Glascoed and Chorley.

Now this isn't saying that there were some spectacular cockups in the procurement process if your interested take a gander at this .... House of Commons Committee of Public Accounts:- Ministry of Defence: Building an air manoeuvre capability: the introduction of the Apache Helicopter (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmpubacc/533/533.pdf)(pdf)

[Uninen]

On the positive side, you now have the know how to build a genuine attack helicopters and the Westland factory can produce them at will for you, you arent dependant on USA on this issue anymore.

Have these btw been used in any combat yet?

[Beer Monster]

Have these btw been used in any combat yet?

Not as yet. They are supposed to be going to Afghanistan later in the year but it hasn't been confirmed yet (the gov still can't decide how many troops to send (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4521318.stm)).

[AlphaOneSix]

If they'd bought them direct from the US they could have had 4x as many!

I think you're comparing A-models to D-models. The D-models cost 4x as much as the A-models.

[Uninen]

Beer Monster ok, thanks. Maybe they get some there. :)

[Whitcomb]

How recently have the Brits atarted using the Apache?

[Greek soldier]

Is it true that the British were thinking of training their crews in Greece??

BTW, wish our Apaches (both A+ and D Longbow) had the RTM engines and not the T700

[S70A_9]

How many are they getting?

91 was the original purchase quantity, reduced to 67.


How recently have the Brits atarted using the Apache?

Programme beagan around 1998/1999, "the first aircraft was delivered in May 2000 and the In-Service Date (ISD) of December 2000 was achieved, on time, with the delivery of the first 9 aircraft" - MoD.

When I saw back then that the UK were getting the RTM-322's instead of the t700 turboshafts, I knew it would be a good move. More power and performance.

For more to answer your questions see -
http://www.army.mod.uk/aht/individual_training.htm obviously about training the pilots (with no money apparently?)

And the AHT page from MoD which is a pretty kick-ass look around -
http://www.army.mod.uk/aht/

Cheers,
s70a_9

[gaz]

How long have they been calling them AH Mk1s? I thought they were WAH-64s? Or is that something I invented in my own head and didn't tell anyone?

[S70A_9]

How long have they been calling them AH Mk1s? I thought they were WAH-64s? Or is that something I invented in my own head and didn't tell anyone?

Since the beginning of the programme I believe.
WAH-64 is the NATO(?) designation or maybe something to do with Boeing. The 'W' being for Westland - however the Brits love making their own 'Mark' designations for everything. Since this is an attack helicopter you get the AH and the first model of it without upgrade Mk 1.

Someone slap me if I'm wrong.

[jlanni]

awsome pictures how i love that aircraft....

[Greek soldier]

Are the T700 engines crap?

Infact compared to the american ones are ours abit shoddy

No the T700 are fine. Rolls-Royce has granted maintance support for the RTM322 (NH90) in Hellenic Aerospace Industries.