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Scyth

01-20-2006, 12:28 PM

The Wrestling Turks and American Military Morale in the Korean War

by Don Miller

The summer of 1996 found me for the first time in Turkey. My destination was Edirne, a city near the Bulgarian border which served as the capital of the Ottoman Empire until Christian Constantinople fell to the Turks in 1453.Edirne is the site of the oldest continuing athletic event in the world. Almost annually since 1640 hordes of Turkey's finest athletes have gathered there for the Kirkpinar, the world series of Turkish oil wrestling. Hardly any tourists attend the tournament, and almost no Americans. Why did I go? Because of a book I read in 1957.

My status as a college student, from 1950 to 1954, kept me deferred from the draft thruout the Korean War, and I have always felt some shame that I was spared when so many young men my age died in Korea. In 1957 I completed graduate school, the year that Eugene Kinkead published his deeply disturbing account of the mortality rate of American prisoners-of-war who were incarcerated by the North Koreans. The Russians, having developed the science of brain-washing, had taught it to the Chinese, who passed it on to the North Koreans, who found that American prisoners were ideal targets for psychological manipulation. Never before - or since - were American soldiers shown to be so widely susceptible to demoralization.

A study conducted by the U.S. Army Medical Corps after the war found that one-third of American POWs were guilty to some degree of collaboration with the enemy. In the three years of warfare, not a single one escaped from captivity. Most alarming of all, out of 7,190 captives, the death rate was 38%, or 2,730. One out of three never came home. These statistics far exceeded the rate for any other American war. Nine enlisted men and three officers were later convicted by courts martial. The most notorious was a Sgt. James Gallagher, who murdered three barracks-mates, helpless with dysentery, by kicking them out into the snow to freeze in the dead of winter.

The study revealed that neither physical torture nor lack of food or medical care had caused the general collapse in morale. Once captured, many of our men lost all sense of allegiance to their country or to one another. They refused to obey their own officers, cursing and even striking them, buying into their captors propaganda that capitalistic rank no longer existed. On forced marches from one prison camp to another, able-bodied men would refuse to lift the stretchers of the wounded. The strong regularly took food from the weak, and the sick were ignored . . . or worse. Many prisoners simply withdrew into a state of isolation and inactivity.

Our commissioned officers had been segregated out by the North Koreans, but each compound still had senior non-coms who, had they established order, would have prevented the tragedy. Instead, the men - chiefly the young - were left free to become easy prey to their captors. Death came most often from what Army psychiatrists simply termed "give-up-itis." First the sufferer became despondent, later he lay down and covered his head with a blanket, then he wanted ice water with his food, next only ice water, and if noone managed to break thru, he was dead in three weeks.
The greatest number of North Korea's prisoners was, of course, American. Of the twelve nations represented, however, the third most numerous were the Turks, with 229. The U.S. Army study found them to have been just as exemplary in prison as they were in battle. The Turks' secret weapons were discipline, great pride in their brigade, and an unbroken chain of command. The final official report contains this Turkish officer's account of his prison experience:

"I told the Chinese commander of the camp that I was in charge of my group. If he wanted anything done, he was to come to me, and I would see that it was done. If he removed me, the responsibility would fall not on him but on the man next below me, and after that on the man below him. And so on, down thru the ranks, until there were only two privates left. Then the senior private would be in charge. They could kill us, I told him, but they couldn't make us do what we didn't want to do. Discipline was our salvation, and we all knew it. If a Turk had questioned an order from his superior to share his food or lift a [stretcher], the way I understand some of your men did, he would literally have had his teeth knocked in. Not by his superior, either, but by the Turk nearest to him. The Communists made attempts to indoctrinate [us]. . .but they failed completely, and eventually gave up."

The crowning consequence of this discipline was that, although half of the 229 were wounded when captured, not one died in prison. When a Turk got sick, the rest nursed him to health. If he was ordered to the hospital, two well Turks went along to minister to him hand and foot and to carry him back to the compound when he was discharged. At mealtime two Turks were dispatched to carry the food back, and it was divided equally down to the last morsel. There was no hogging, no rule of dog eat dog, not ever. Death by "give-up-itis" was impossible. While an American might curl up alone at night and die in the bitter cold, the Turks all piled together in one corner of their cell, and every hour the two on the outside would rotate to the center of the pile. The Chinese guards actually grew to fear their Turkish prisoners, as they watched the interminable wrestling matches which kept them so tough - and, paradoxically, so loyal to one another. As a consequence of this study President Eisenhower issued the now-famous Uniform Code of Military Conduct, and the Korean experience, thank God, has not repeated itself.

That was how, forty years ago, a book on the Korean War "hooked" me on Turkey. My admiration was not then easy to admit, for I was a newly-minted Anglican priest and these Turks were all misguided Moslems. I had emerged from seminary equipped with my own fix on all the non-Christian religions, and Moslems were fanatics who just wanted to kill everybody else. Here I was, faced with evidence of Moslems who really lived the Golden Rule, and of Christians whose self-absorption had produced despair and death. I kept chewing on that paradox - and those stereotypes - until finally a chance came to do some observation for myself.

Four times now I have visited Turkey, to see what kind of wrestlers the Turks are and, more importantly, what kind of people they are. So impressed was I by the Kirkpinar Festival, and the hundreds of athletes, officials and dignitaries with whom I had my halting conversations, that I kept coming back. These are guileless, friendly, physically awesome men who come from every province of a big country just to wrestle, forty at a time, in a great grassy field, barefoot and barechested, covered with olive oil, in 92-degree summer heat. These fighters range in age from twelve to forty, and each contest may last from a few minutes to an hour. I find it hard to imagine many of our own wrestlers matching their stamina, or to be competing in such a gruelling sport at the age of forty. The Turkish style with its dearth of rules could not easily be introduced into our country, because the brotherly trust which exists between the combatants is unknown in rule-rich American sports. There are referees, but their involvement is minimal. Turks oiled bodies are so difficult to grasp that, in seeking to secure leverage for a throw, a wrestler is permitted to thrust his hand or his entire forearm down into his opponent's leather trousers, something which would freak out any Western athlete. Intentional fouls are almost non-existent. There is no such thing as a draw, the match continuing until one wins and the other loses.
A most impressive aspect of the tournament is the participants almost universal comradeliness. Opponents will kibitz and joke with one another while waiting for their line to be sent onto the field. Before tying up for this fight to the finish each pair engages in elaborate Islamic rituals of respect for one another. If during the match one wrestler should get something in his eye the struggle simply pauses, his opponent usually fetches cloth and water to wash it away, then they face off, and the fight is resumed. Once the match is decided they rise to embrace, touch foreheads together and leave the field. A foreign observer must ask how much these deeply-ingrained wrestling traditions contribute to the fact that Turks historically stick together in tough situations, while we Americans seem often inclined to "look out for Number One.

When the three-day tournament draws to a close, and the champions have been cheered by a packed stadium, the President of Turkey crowns the Bash Pehlivan of all Turkey, a national hero frequently honored by his home town with a statue. The current Turkish champion, whom I am privileged to consider a friend, is also a champion Sumo wrestler in Japan. Almost forty, but in extraordinary shape, he confesses to a longing to take up American football.
Fellow Americans, we have a lot to learn from the Turks and the way their wrestlers treat one another even when they are fighting. We must go on struggling to love and care for one another despite the immense racial, ethnic and religious differences which characterize American culture. If we fail, then the individualism of which we proudly boast will be our undoing at the hand of some other power whose people have learned to stick together for the common good. Jesus, as always, hit the mark when he said, "Greater love hath no man, than that he lay down his life for his friends." It is simply not enough that we be cajoled to celebrate our diversity, which is no more than a glib piece of contemporary sloganeering. Americans will either become genuine brothers, bound together by a compassion which transcends mere tolerance, or this first great world experiment in democracy is destined to fade and crumble.

My aim is not to self-congratulate. Just thought it was an interesting insight. Will post sthg soon on Turkish-American alliance during the Korean War, a great war that is often called the forgotten war.

Scyth

01-20-2006, 12:55 PM

For some background info on the Turkish invlovement in the Korean War:

THE TURKISH BRIGADE

The advance party of the Turkish Brigade or Turkish Armed Forces command, arrived in Pusan on 12 October 1950. The main body numbering 5190 troops arrived five days later, on 17 October. Brigadier General Tahzin Yazici commanded the brigade. Colonel Celal Dora was assistant Brigade Commander. When the main body arrived the brigade went into bivouac near Taegu where it underwent training and received U.S. equipment. The brigade was attached to the U.S. 25th infantry division so after limited training the brigade moved north to the Kaesong area to join the division.

The Turks in the Korean War
(The Turkish perspective from "The Korean War -- a short history by the Turkish War Veterans Association.)
The Turkish Brigade has been the subject of the world's praise, by showing a very superior combat capability which provided our state with honor through the successes it won one after another during the three year period of blood and fire starting from the hardest and most critical moment it entered the battlefield until the signing of the "Ceasefire" agreement. Because addressing all the battles of the Turkish Brigades, however briefly, will extend the subject, we will just suffice to list the battles fought and briefly address the most important ones.
The Turkish brigades, between the dates of November 1950 and July 1953, have fought the following battles the Kunuri diversion; the Kumyangjangni-Illi-431-639 -Imjin attacks; 22/23 April 1951; the Chorwon-Seoul diversion; the Taegyewonni defense; the Barhar-Kumhwa-701 attacks; and the Wegas defense battles. We will not just talk here about the battles accomplished by our Brigades--for the Turkish brigades have accomplished all their war tasks without default but about four important battles which affected the course of the war. And these are the battles of Kunuri, Kumjangjangni, Taegyewonni and Wegas.

The Kunuri Battle
The United Nations Forces started to attack on the morning of 24 November 1950, under the command of Five Star General Douglas MacArthur with the objective being the Yalu River (Border Line). At this time the Turkish Brigade was constituting the reserve force of the IXth Army Corps, 3.5 km. west southwest of the town of Kunuri. The attacks of the United Nations Forces had easily developed until the evening of 25 November. However the attacks of the Chinese which started as raids on the night of 25/26 November 1950, created great surprise and confusion at the fronts.
When morning came on 26 November it was understood that the Chinese Forces had penetrated the front of the II'nd South Korean Army Corps situated in the Central Segment of the front and that they had stalked behind the U.S. Divisions situated on the western segment of the front. Especially the Chinese Forces, advancing towards Tokchon from the area of the II (Second) South Korean Army Corps had started to threaten the Eighth Army and specifically the IXth (U.S.) Army Corps.
Therefore upon the IX Army Corps advance the Turkish Brigade on reserve against the forces threatening its eastern side and back. After dusk on 26 November the Turkish Brigade began to march by way of the Kunuri-Kaechon-Sinnimni-Wawon-Tokchon. The Brigade was given the task of capturing the town of Tokchon. The Turkish Brigade had started to advance towards the battlefield having undertaken a very rare and heavy war task which reserves could ever meet against disproportional enemy forces and under negative conditions.
Having spent the night in Wawon the Brigade restarted to march at 0530 in the morning (27 November). As the units were crossing the steep Karill Yon Mountain and as the Advance Guard were descending on the Tokchon Valley (1430 hrs) the Army Corps gave the order "Do not advance any further and get on the defensive on the line which you have reached." General Tahsin RAZICI having read in the order the seemingly innocent and unimportant news "If you do not have troops in Changsangni, our aircraft have identified a force about the size of a regiment whose nationality is unknown" perceived a danger and ordered the Turkish Brigade to get on the defensive not where the Army Corps ordered, but on the Wawon line 15 km, back west. General Yazici's decision would take the Turkish Brigade back from the point of destruction and bring it to a point which would prevent the destruction of the allied forces.
Let us briefly dwell here. We have to show the degree of validity of the claim that "the U.S. general spent the Brigade by using it as a pawn" which had been tried to be imposed on our public. When our accounts are looked at it is obvious how General Tahsin Yazici took responsibility whenever required to protect the existence of the Brigade and to successfully implement the tasks of war. General Yazici never gave in to the short and dark orders of the U.S. generals such as Stop-Go.The reinforced Reconnaisance Unit which was the rear guard of the Brigade prevented the enemy from striking the Brigade at night, by distracting the enemy raid which started on the night of 27/28
November at 2400 until dawn on 28 November. At 0800 hours on 28 November the Wawon Battle of the Brigade began. That day all of the attacks of the numerically superior enemy forces first against the Pass Axis and then against the Pass' Points of Shoulder were broken. In the fore-noon the close enveloping operations were defeated with our counter offensives. In the afternoon upon the efforts of the enemy to cut the Kunuri-Wawon road by transferring forces to the back beyond the effective area of the Brigade, General Yazici ordered preparations to be made for the withdrawal of the Brigade to the Sinnimni segment. It was understood that both sides of the Brigade were open and that friendly forces had withdrawn. We would want to strongly emphasize this point.
During the Korean War the enemy always found the opportunity to surround the Brigade by penetrating neighboring friendly unit fronts. But no enemy attack ever succeeded in penetrating the front of the Turkish Brigade. The Brigade started to withdraw to the Sinnimni segment from Wawon after dusk at 1830 hours. The units which withdrew to Sinnimni hastily started to occupy defensive positions. At 2400 hours the attack of the enemy started in the form of a raid. While the units which were situated in favorable terrain continued to defend, the other units of the Brigade failing to hold started to withdraw towards Kunuri. Part of the units which had withdrawn were stopped west of Sinnimni through the tough and resolved stance of the Brigade Command and put in a new defensive position.
Fore-noon on 29 November an attack was undertaken with an Infantry Company to save the II'nd Battalion and the 2nd Company which were under enemy encirclement in Sinnimni. The enemy circle was broken and the safe withdrawal of the units to Kaechon was provided for. The attacks undertaken by the enemy in the afternoon against the Kaechon position were destroyed to their last soldiers. However the forces which the enemy sent beyond the effective area of the Brigade to the back could not be stopped.
Faced with this situation, at 1530 hours General Tahsin Yazici ordered the II'nd and III'rd Battalions to withdraw to the west of Kaechon. Before the battalions could get 2 km. away from Kaechon, they were divided into small groups by the effective fires they received from three directions. As the Brigade was entering the night of 29/30 November, the Hacham-Kunuri road was cut and the enemy circle was complete. At 1715 hours the I'st Battalion which had withdrawn from Kaechon engaged in combat in the Hacham circle. Although the units were dispersed and liaison and management was non existent, the small groups managed by the young officers started to break the enemy circle. The Brigade succeeded in getting out of the Hacham circle through attack and infiltration actions which continued all night long.
On 30 November 1950 the various groups advancing to Sunchon from the south of Tunuri met with a new enemy circle here. The Sunchon Pass had been under enemy control for the past two days. The attacks which the 2nd US Division undertook from the north and the British Brigade from the south had not produced results. After a short rest, our infantry started to attack the enemy which had dug in on the Sunchon Pass. With this attack in which US Infantry and tanks also participated the pass was opened.
The bayonet of the Turkish Infantry had once again asserted its rule, and had opened the Sunchon Pass where the 2nd Division had come up against a stone wall. Thus the battles of the Brigade which were given the name Kunuri came to an end in a successful conclusion. The Turkish Brigade had succeeded to provide the necessary time and space for the withdrawal by preventing the encirclement of the Eighth Army and the IXth Army Corps and the destruction of the 2nd US Division, through the battles it fought on the dates of 27-30 November. The Turkish Brigade, which had no war experience, was affecting a great battle from its roots, was saving the friendly Army, which was starting to roll down a dangerous cliff, by stopping the superior numbers of enemy forces. Thus the Brigade was achieving fame in the world by playing an important role in the course of the war in its first battle.

Echoes of the Kunuri Battle

"4500 soldiers in the middle of the firing line have known how to create miracle. The sacrifices of the Turks will eternally remain in our minds." - Washington Tribune
"The courageous battles of the Turkish Brigade have created a favorable effect on the whole United Nations Forces." - Time
"The surprise of the Korean battles were not the Chinese but the Turks. It is impossible at this moment to find a word to describe the heroism which the Turks have shown in the battles." - Abent Post
"The Turks have shown in Kunuri a heroism worthy of their glorious history. The Turks have gained the admiration of the whole world through their glorious fighting in the battles." - Figaro
"The Turks who have been known throughout history by their courage and decency, have proved that they have kept these characteristics, in the war which the United Nations undertook in Korea." - Burner - U.S. Congressman
"There is no one left who does not know that the Turks, our valuable allies, are hard warriors and that they have accomplished very great feats at the front." - Claude Pepper, U.S. Senator
"I now understand that the vote I gave in favor of assistance to Turkey was the most fitting vote I gave in my life. Courage, bravery and heroism are the greatest virtues which will sooner or later conquer. In this matter, I know no nation superior to the Turks." - Rose - U.S. Senator
"While the Turks were for a long time fighting against the enemy and dying, the British and Americans were withdrawing. The Turks, who were out of ammunition, affixed their bayonets and attacked the enemy and there ensued a terrible hand to hand combat. The Turks succeeded in withdrawing by continuous combat and by carrying their injured comrades on their backs. They paraded at Pyongyang with their heads held high." - G.G. Martin - British Lieutenant General
"The Turkish forces have shown success above that expected in the battles they gave in Korea." - General Collings - Commander US Army
"We owe the escape of thousands of United Nations troops out of a certain encirclement to the heroism of the Turkish soldiers. The Turkish soldiers in Korea have added a new and unforgettable page of honor to the customs and legends of heroism of the Turkish nation." - Emanuel Shinwell - U.K. Minister of Defense
"The heroic soldiers of a heroic nation, you have saved the Eighth Army and the IX'th Army Crops from encirclement and the 2nd Division from destruction. I came here today to thank you on behalf of the United Nations Army." - General Walton H. Walker, Commander, Eighth Army
"The Turks are the hero of heroes. There is no impossibility for the Turkish Brigade." - General Douglas MacArthur - United Nations Forces Commander in Chief
"The military situation in Korea is being followed with concern by the whole American public. But in these concerned days, the heroism shown by the Turks has given hope to the American nation. It has inculeated them with courage. The American public fully appreciates the value of the services rendered by the Turkish Brigade and knows that because of them the Eighth American Army could withdraw without disarray. The American public understands that the United Nations Forces in Korea were saved from encirclement and from falling in to the hands of the communists by the heroism shown by the Turks." - 2
December 1950, from the commentary of a US radio commentator The Turkish Brigade, as can be understood from the summary of the Kunuri battles and the echoes it produced in the world, had successfully accomplished its mission. The Brigade was proud to have informed the country of the news of success which the state and nation expected, at the highest level. A handful of soldiers had provided the state with power, great opportunities and esteem.

Kumyangjangni Battle
The United Nations Forces had been morally and materially very shaken at the end of the enemy attacks which had started on the night of 25/26 November 1951. The efforts to stop the enemy were not producing any results. The Chinese who had gained the initiative were advancing and were striking the United Nations Forces blows one after the other.
Winter, snow, battles lost one after the other and the losses suffered had left nothing resembling morale in the United Nations soldiers. The atmosphere was one of total defeat. The Chinese had become something which could not be stood up against or dealt with. From private to general the Army was engulfed in an air of subversive, dissolving, and collapsing panic. The various reconnaissance units were returning in panic and giving exaggerated hope breaking reports. Thus under these conditions plans had been started to be prepared for the evacuation of Korea and the units were ordered to reconnoiter secretly the avenues of withdrawal and places to board transport.
In these hopeless and dark days in which the soldiers had completely lost their will to fight and the Chinese had advanced just waving their arms, according to rumors General MacArthur said "Try for once the Turkish Brigade, wait for the news which will come from them. Do not make a decision before letting the Turkish Brigade reconnoiter."
Whatever the case was, the Brigade this time was being sent to the fire at a critical stage, just as it was at Kunuri. The Brigade was being given a new and important war task, which would play an important role on the testing of the battles.
On 25 January 1951 the Turkish Brigade started to advance towards enemy lines by starting from two columns. After advancing 1.5 km. the enemy was engaged. The companies started to attack enemy positions like arrows out of bows. At 100 hours the fortified positions of the enemy were entered and enemy resistance was crushed. The companies did not wait long to open and spread again and started to look for the enemy.
After advancing north about 2.5 km. the defensive positions of the enemy were encountered at the 185 altitude Hill line. The 10th Company succeeded in entering the enemy defense position at 1500 hours in this segment where intensive fire battles took place. A relentless and close combat had started all along the front. The enemy was defending its position literally to "its last breath". Darkness had fallen but decisive results could not be obtained. The enemy was resisting and our soldiers were attacking. A very complex and dangerous situation had occurred with the enemy and friendly forces mixed within each other.
The Army Corps gave the order for "Turks to fix their bayonets where they reach and not withdraw even one step".
The companies thought attacking and finishing the job of the enemy more logical than waiting nose to nose with the enemy under the maddening cold and as if on cue started attack all together. At 0500 hours on the morning of 25 January the defensive positions of the enemy were wholly captured. The Infantry who did not want to let the enemy take a breather continued to advance at 0700 hours on 26 January. After 5 km. a new defensive line of the enemy was encountered. The Brigade was attacking with all its capabilities in this segment which the enemy was defending with all its power and insistence.
In this battle in which the Brigade emerged with honor, the attack which the enemy undertook against Seoul produced no results. The command which did not want to miss the opportunity formed by the Brigade breaking the attack power and morale of the enemy did not delay the decision to replace defense with attack. The enemy which could not find the opportunity to change its battle formation from attack to defense started to withdraw towards the 38th parallel suffering a heavy defeat.
As the Brigade was taken back after this famous new battle it was met with the enthusiastic show of sympathy and appreciation by the friendly soldiers along the way. The friendly soldiers were running along the road and shouting, "The First Returns". The location where the Brigade gave the night battle on 17/18 May was given the name "The Turkish Fortress".
The commander in chief of the United Nations Forces, General Matthew B. Ridgway, said, "I had heard of the fame of the Turkish soldiers before I came to Korea. The truth is I had not really believed what I had heard. But I now understand that in fact you are the best, and most trustworthy soldiers of the world" and thus explained the emotions he felt and the assessments he reached from the Teagyewonni Battle.

Now let us briefly and last address the Wegas [Vegas] Battle of the Brigade.
The Turkish Brigade Provides "Cease Fire"
In June 1951 the United Nations Forces had advanced up to the Imjin River-Chorwon-Kumhwa line. The trials at 1950 and 1951 could not obtain decisive results and the parties mutually went on the defensive and stopped the attack operations. This meant that the Korean War had remained where it started and that the war had not reached the established objective. Now no other operations could be made except ambush, reconnaissance and battle front line conflicts. The great military operation had stopped. The parties who understood that they could not solve the Korean problem with arms had started "cease fire" discussions.
The discussions held at Panmunjon were protracting and were not reaching a result. The fact that the discussions were often being out and reconciliation could not be provided was increasing the chances of the big military operation restarting. For this reason the parties were strengthening their defense lines, and were waiting ready to meet possible attacks. The enemy had started to prepare in order to once more try its luck with arms. The attack which had been undertaken not much later with large forces against the front of the Turkish Brigade had two aims. Either they would have their demands accepted at the Panmunjomn "cease fire" discussions or they would reach the conclusion by penetrating allied lines.
Thus this attack which the enemy had much previously planned in a detailed manner and put into implementation by using all its experience had started on 28 May 1953 at 1948 hours. The techniques employed and the will to fight shown by the enemy in this attack had been of a commendable level. In this attack, which continued for thirty hours, all the echelons of the enemy from private to general fought with all their strength in the recognition of the importance of the aim pursued.
For this battle would be the last one to establish the result in Korea. In case of defeat they would have to accept the consequence, but if success would be achieved the military operation would develop and at least political advantages would be gained. Thus the Turkish Brigade had to again meet an enemy attack which had a decisive aim and which was well prepared and resolute. In the front the positions were very close to each other. Such a situation had serious tactical disadvantages. Besides, having to wait in tight, humid and dark positions was tiring and irritating the soldiers. As the days passed in such a manner on 28 May at 1948 hours the war again became bloody with the attack of the enemy supported by intense fire. The enemy attacks which intensified on the front of the II'nd Battalion of the Brigade led to very bloody and sometimes crisis-like battles on the hills of Garson [Carson], Big Wegas [Vegas], Elko and Little Wegas [Vegas] which continued for thirty hours.
The aforementioned hills changed hands frequently during the bloody battles which continued in big savagery from 1948 hours on 28 May 1953 to 2400 hours on 29 May night and day without stopping. The enemy started the attack at 1948 by smokebombing the Little Wegas Hill. It entered positions at 2000 hours. As the enemy was reinforcing Little Wegas, our Infantry counter attacked at 2115 with fire support. At 2119 the enemy started to run having failed to hold. The enemy which managed to capture a bunker was destroyed at 2151 with bombs and bayonet charges. At 2152 hours, Garson and Elko were completely smoked. The enemy is turning Big Wegas into hell with artillery and mortar fire. The enemy which entered Big Wegas was thrown back at 2158 with bayonet charges.
Ammunition began to run low at the battle front lines. At 2208 the enemy re-entered Big Wegas. At 2220 hours enemy reinforcements reached Big Wegas. At 2220 hours enemy reinforcements reached Big Wegas. The enemy was subjected to intense artillery fire. At 2240 a counter attack was undertaken against Big Wegas. The enemy attacked Garson at 2245 hours. At 1315 hours our Infantry re-capture Big Wegas. The enemy who had entered Elko was thrown back at 2315 hours. No opportunity was given to the enemy, which had entered Little Wegas, to hold and as a result of a counter attack the Hill was re-captured at 2334 hours. At 2330 the enemy entered Big Wegas. At 2353 the enemy attack against Elko and Garson began. Wired and wireless communications were cut.
The situation started to present a full scale crisis. Hand to hand combat is continuing at battle front lines. At 0040 hours the enemy started to attack Little Wegas. The enemy is trying to capture the battle front lines before daylight. At 0120 the enemy enters Garson.
At 0150 fighting continues with the enemy who has entered some of the bunkers on Little Wegas and Big Wegas. Communications cannot be established with Garson. At 0323 those enemy soldiers entering Little Wegas and those approaching in order to reinforce surrender to our soldiers.
At 0347 the Brigade gives the order to attack Big Wegas. Garson is in the hands of the enemy. At 0427 the enemy reinforces Big Wegas. At 0505 Garson is being shelled. Little Wegas in holding but the wounded can not be evacuated. With the attack at 1050 we take Big Wegas. The enemy is running. Everywhere there are dead and wounded. At 1115 the American company attacked Garson from Elko, however, upon being surrounded by the Chinese, started to withdraw at 1600 hours. At 1543 the Chinese entered Elko. Hand grenade combat started in Elko. The enemy occupied a bunker. After this it entered Big Wegas at 1615. Our infantry immediately counter attacked and threw the enemy back. The battle is continuing high tension.
At 1933 hours the enemy started to attack Little Wegas from Big Wegas.
At 2005 our 2'nd Artillery Battery started to burn. At 2021 it had completely burned. At 2050 the Division decided to evacuate Wegas.
The enemy can not enter Wegas. But at 2109 our infantry withdraw upon orders. At 2020 Wegas is completely evacuated. The command who fought the enemy had been given the required lesson decided to stop the bloody battle. At the end of the bloody battles which continued for thirty hours the enemy, with the withdrawal of our battalion, had captured Big Wegas, Elko and Garson. But because it had used up all its attack strength it could not undertake another attack against the main battle line.
The attacks of the enemy which it undertook with the large forces it had concentrated and with strong artillery and mortar groups, for thirty hours was caught up in the battle front lines. During these battles, according to the report of our artillery advance surveillance officer, we suffered 300 and the enemy around 2000 casualties. On the other hand General Ridgway explains the casualties suffered in the battles with the following figures "The Turkish Brigade suffered 104 dead and 376 wounded. The enemy losses were established to be 2200 dead and 1075 wounded" (*).
(*) Refer to "The Korean War" written by the General Matthew Ridgway - p. 220.
The enemy understood after this battle that there was no option but to "cease fire" and to restart the laying-down-of-arms negotiations in a lively and willing manner. In fact before long the "cease fire" was signed. The Turkish Brigade affected the "cease fire" which was signed in Korea, through the battles it fought on 28 and 29 May 1953. As can be seen, the Turkish Brigade had often demonstrated successes during the Korean battles, which affected the course of the war. Finally, the Turkish Brigade also fought the last battle leading to the "cease fire". Of course all these battles were not easy and without loss.

********************
Casualties 721 KIA 168 MIA 2111 WIA

PELASGOS

01-20-2006, 02:39 PM

Beykoz

01-21-2006, 06:19 AM

The real story about Turks is that they performed bad but the US commanders praised them to save morale. Most known case is where the Turks attacked allies because they thought they were Chinese:

Nov. 27, 1950 - The worst disaster of the day falls upon a 5,000-men Turkish Brigade. On the previous day (Nov. 26), the Turks attacked a company of S. Koreans and inflicted heavy casualties on the "Chinese" at Takchon. The real Chinese ambush the Turks and only a handful manage to escape. Columns of military vehicles - tanks, trucks, jeeps, and self-propelled guns - stretch from the Chungchun River all the way to Seoul. Some half million refugees follow the retreating armies to south. People die of hunger and cold; and frozen bodies are found everywhere.

Link:

http://www.johndclare.net/cold_war10_YoungSKim.htm

BTW we respect KIAs who died in an anticommunist war even by their mistakes.

OH please... For every link you can find to belittle the Turks, i can find 10 that praise them.

Show some fvcken respect !!! Giving a semi-disguised insult to our veterans with a little disclaimer on the bottom of your post is hardly acceptable. Go and troll elsewhere.

On November 19, the U.S. 25th Division left Kaesong at 6 a.m. and bedded down at the mining town of Kunu-ri around 2 o'clock that night. The next day, the Turkish Brigade, which was largely an infantry unit without trucks for troop transport, was detached and reassigned to the IX Corps reserve at Kunu-ri. Walker's Eighth Army command was split down the middle by the Chongchon River.

As part of the IX Corps' general northward advance, the Turks were ordered on November 21 to move north with the 25th Division. By November 22, 1950, the Turks had completed their assignment of neutralizing North Korean patrols in their assigned area. The steady movement to Kunu-ri had begun in earnest. Kunu-ri, much like all the other small villages in the northern sector, was mainly mud-and-stick houses. It was a totally unremarkable place, little different from any of the other villages perched on the mountainsides and in the deep valleys cut by swift-moving mountain rivers and streams.

Advancing along with their American counterparts, the Turks were ordered to establish contact with the U.S. 2nd Division on the right flank of the IX Corps and also to cover the right flank and rear of their division. The brigade had received information concerning a Chinese regiment known to be northwest of Tokchon. General Yazici described the situation that confronted him in these words:

"This was what the order was. Further intelligence was asked about the enemy and the ROK Corps, but none was available or more information was not supplied lest it lower the morale of the Turkish Brigade....The situation was serious, and demanded prompt action."

On November 26, the Chinese Communist Forces (CCF) launched strong counterattacks against the U.S. I Corps and IX Corps. The main Chinese force moved down the central mountain ranges against the ROK II Corps at Tokchon. The South Koreans could not withstand the attack and their defenses collapsed.

Part 4: Mixed Fortunes

The Chinese onslaught assumed alarming proportions, and the Turks were ordered to protect the U.N. right flank. Trucks were assigned to transport the Turks' 1st Battalion to Wawon, 15 miles east of Kunu-ri, about halfway to Takchon, unload and return for the 2nd Battalion. After insufficient trucks arrived, some of the brigade set out on foot. Orders, counterorders and garbled transmissions made the situation an unintelligible mess. The Turks were ordered to close the road and secure Unsong-ni. Trying later to explain the confusion of that time, General Yazici wrote:

"There was no time to move the brigade to Unsong-ni and deploy it there before dark. Besides, the enemy, which was supposed to be at Chongsong-ni, was in fact too close to the line which the Corps wanted us to hold. That the Brigade might be subjected to a surprise attack before reaching its position was highly probable. Even more important was the fact that the civilian population had not been moved out of the area. If the peasants and the guerrillas that might have been infiltrated among them attempted to block the mountain crossing or the Wawon Pass in the rear, the Brigade might suffer heavily. As a matter of fact, the 2nd Division, of which we were supposed to defend the right flank, was withdrawing. It was impossible to fulfill the task from Karil L'yong, where the Brigade was, because the terrain was very rugged and thickly wooded. In order to protect the Kunu-ri*Tokchon road and the other roads to the north and the south, a 12-mile-wide front had to be held. This was impossible against a numerically superior enemy who knew the region well. Further, the terrain restricted the effective use of artillery and heavy infantry weapons."

As Yazici clearly outlined, the Turks were in an unenviable situation. They had to withdraw to the southeast. That withdrawal compounded the exposure of the Turks' own east flank as well as the 2nd Division's east flank. Yazici ordered his men to move in the direction of Wawon northeast of Kunu-ri. The brigade had lost contact with corps. Therefore, Yazici assumed responsibility and ordered his men to position themselves at Wawon. When they reached Wawon, they attacked toward Tokchon, on foot and without tank support. The terrain was upstream along the Tongjukkyo River into the mountain divide that separated the Chongchon River from the Taedong drainage. Here, the headwaters of the Tongjukkyo River fan out into numerous small streams.

When he received intelligence that air observers had seen hundreds of Chinese moving toward Tokchon, Maj. Gen. Laurence Kaiser, commanding the U.S. 2nd Division, remarked, "That's where they are going to hit." The Chinese counteroffensive actually struck all along the front. Two platoons of the Turkish Brigade assigned reconnaissance duty were now given rear-guard duty. The Chinese followed the brigade closely. The reconnaissance unit engaged the oncoming Chinese at the Karil L'yong Pass, was unable to break contact. Only a few men survived.

The Turks had achieved one objective--they had tied down the enemy. The Chinese suffered heavy casualties trying repeatedly to take the Turkish position, and all their attacks were repelled. Finally, Yazici, understanding that the brigade was being encircled by the numerically superior Chinese, ordered withdrawal.

The Turks were isolated in the subzero temperatures, their orders not fully understood. And during the night, the Chinese kept up a steady barrage of sudden noises using drums, bugles, whistles, flutes, shepherds' pipes and cymbals, along with the shouting, laughing and chattering of human voices.

The offensive had changed and now became a rout of the U.N. forces. The engulfing enemy constantly changed tactics and directions.. Communications resumed with the Turkish Brigade. Some orders were understood, but most were not. The brigade was ordered to merge with the U.S. 38th Regiment, cover the 38th's flank and secure a retreat route westward. In the confusion of the retreat and the garbled, misdirected and delayed messages, that crucial directive was two hours late in delivery. The column got turned about in the mass confusion and congestion of the road.

Once again, as the Turks approached Wawon, they encountered heavy enemy fire. The CCF had arrived before the Turks were able to reassemble and assume defensive positions. The Chinese ripped into the ragged column and the soldiers were ordered to turn about once again. The Turkish 9th Company took the brunt of the attack as it covered for the retreating main body. The 10th Company of the brigade's 3rd Battalion received orders to form the brigade's general outpost line.

Major Lutfu Bilgin, commander of the 3rd Battalion, sent his 9th Company to defend the 10th and 11th companies' flank. The Chinese eased off on the 10th but continued to besiege the 9th and the 11th. Midmorning on November 28, the Chinese broke through and attacked the 9th's position in force. The company was overrun, and Major Bilgin and many of his men were killed.

Enemy reinforcements tried to encircle the entire brigade. General Yazici, however, assessed the situation and took steps to protect his flank and avoid encirclement. The CCF poured forward, and the Turks were caught in the trap that the Chinese were laying. Suddenly, the Chinese broke off after encountering strong resistance of the 3rd Battalion.

During the withdrawal, the Chinese had attacked the Turks with overwhelming force and the brigade took such high casualties that by November 30 it was destroyed as a battleworthy unit. The only support the Turks received from IX Corps was a tank platoon and truck transportation. That was added to the brigade's artillery and enabled some of the brigade to survive.

Part 5: Aftermath

The flow of messages and changed orders to the Turks on the road to Tokchon on November 27 reflected the lack of precise information and the high level of uncertainty that IX Corps and the Eighth Army experienced as they struggled to interpret the rapidly enfolding events. One certainty was that, during the day, the Chinese attacked the leading 1st Battalion at Wawon and this ambush inflicted the devastating blow to the Turks. The battalion was surrounded, and a hand-to-hand battle between Chinese bayonets and Turkish long knives took place. It was reported that the two companies of Turks were still fighting east of Wawaon and had about 400 men wounded. General Yazici was at his headquarters in Taechon, a larger village southeast of Kunu-ri. The Turks held out at Wawon until the afternoon and then withdrew to another position southwest of Wawon. Again, the Chinese outflanked those Turks, who then withdrew toward Kunu-ri. The Turkish battalion lost most of its vehicles. The survivors scrambled into the hills when all other means of escape was denied them. By that time, the Chinese held all the roads. The Turks continued to fight delaying actions to gain time for the rest of their troops to re-form and establish some semblance of an orderly defense, but they were not successful in any of those efforts.

At the 2nd Division Headquarters, information about the Turks and their actual movements was more and more difficult to obtain. The tanks sent toward the Turks' position were repeatedly turned back. Confusion led to startling events, such as American soldiers simply abandoning their positions and equipment, including their weapons. The Chinese appeared to be everywhere and nowhere at the same time. Confirmation of Chinese movements was sparse and often erroneous. The Chinese, reported to be just ahead, turned out to be advancing on the soldiers from behind. The Turks decided to evacuate the command post. A new and yet ancient style of warfare had begun.

The Chinese and North Koreans used a multiple of tactics in a mountainous terrain that left little, if any, mobility. The weather had become an enemy as cruel as the terrain. The Turks and Americans, unable to communicate and coordinate, fought valiantly, but without much direction and without knowing what their fellow soldiers and units were doing.

The U.N. response to the Chinese offensive in November 1950 has been described as a "bugout," a massive retreat that should not have happened. Very little has been written about the conditions that contributed to the failure of MacArthur's November offensive, an offensive that began with high expectations of bringing the soldiers home for Christmas. Afterward, the words "home for Christmas" rang hollow in the ears of both the military and the politicians. The terrain, the weather, the lack of adequate language skills by the Americans and the Turks, and the lack of options for that massive an operation preordained the bloody, tragic outcome.

In the course of the U.N. offensive and the Chinese counteroffensive, the 1st Turkish Brigade suffered 3,514 casualties, of which 741 were killed in action, 2,068 wounded, 163 missing and 244 taken prisoner, as well as 298 noncombatant casualties.

The Turks, armed and trained by American military advisers, did better than even they had hoped or expected in this, their first real combat since World War I. The American units to which they were attached respected their skills and tenacity in combat. Some comments by American officers give insight into the Turks and their abilities. "They really prefer to be on the offensive and handle it quite well," went one appraisal. "They are not as good at defensive positions, and certainly never retreat." Another report told of their patrol skills: "Certain Turkish patrols always reported high body counts when they returned from patrols. Headquarters always scoffed at the high numbers, much higher in fact than any other unit, until the Turks decided to bring the enemy bodies back and dump them at headquarters for the body count."

The Turks acquitted themselves in a brave and noble fashion in some of the worst conditions experienced in the Korean War. Very little else could have been required or expected of them. Their heavy casualties speak of their honor and commitment. Their bravery requires no embellishment. It stands on its own.

Here are some more praises you claim that were given just to save morale :roll: :

"4500 soldiers in the middle of the firing line have known how to create miracle. The sacrifices of the Turks will eternally remain in our minds." - Washington Tribune

"The courageous battles of the Turkish Brigade have created a favorable effect on the whole United Nations Forces." - Time

"The surprise of the Korean battles were not the Chinese but the Turks. It is impossible at this moment to find a word to describe the heroism which the Turks have shown in the battles." - Abent Post

"The Turks have shown in Kunuri a heroism worthy of their glorious history. The Turks have gained the admiration of the whole world through their glorious fighting in the battles." - Figaro

"The Turks who have been known throughout history by their courage and decency, have proved that they have kept these characteristics, in the war which the United Nations undertook in Korea." - Burner - U.S. Congressman

"There is no one left who does not know that the Turks, our valuable allies, are hard warriors and that they have accomplished very great feats at the front." - Claude Pepper, U.S. Senator

"I now understand that the vote I gave in favor of assistance to Turkey was the most fitting vote I gave in my life. Courage, bravery and heroism are the greatest virtues which will sooner or later conquer. In this matter, I know no nation superior to the Turks." - Rose - U.S. Senator

"While the Turks were for a long time fighting against the enemy and dying, the British and Americans were withdrawing. The Turks, who were out of ammunition, affixed their bayonets and attacked the enemy and there ensued a terrible hand to hand combat. The Turks succeeded in withdrawing by continuous combat and by carrying their injured comrades on their backs. They paraded at Pyongyang with their heads held high." - G.G. Martin - British Lieutenant General

"The Turkish forces have shown success above that expected in the battles they gave in Korea." - General Collings - Commander US Army

"We owe the escape of thousands of United Nations troops out of a certain encirclement to the heroism of the Turkish soldiers. The Turkish soldiers in Korea have added a new and unforgettable page of honor to the customs and legends of heroism of the Turkish nation." - Emanuel Shinwell - U.K. Minister of Defense

"The heroic soldiers of a heroic nation, you have saved the Eighth Army and the IX'th Army Crops from encirclement and the 2nd Division from destruction. I came here today to thank you on behalf of the United Nations Army." - General Walton H. Walker, Commander, Eighth Army

"The Turks are the hero of heroes. There is no impossibility for the Turkish Brigade." - General Douglas MacArthur - United Nations Forces Commander in Chief

PELASGOS

01-21-2006, 06:44 AM

Beykoz

01-21-2006, 07:46 AM

Count Lippe

01-21-2006, 11:45 AM

Boy, this is going to be fun! *grabs pop corn*rofl

PELASGOS

01-21-2006, 04:09 PM

Boy, this is going to be fun! *grabs pop corn*rofl

Pic a few cold ones too, becouse there is a movie to see: Super Turks in fantasy land.

SEAHAWK

01-21-2006, 04:30 PM

Most known case is where the Turks attacked allies because they thought they were Chinese:

The most known case is the American 2th Division's pulling back with no informing or warning in "Kunuri". So, Turkish Brigade has been left in Kunuri. Here, this this event's map : (ALL MAPS, PHOTOGRAPHES AND TEXTS ARE TAKEN FROM TURKISH MONTLY MILITARY MAGAZINE, "DEFENCE & AEROSPACE" (SAVUNMA VE HAVACILIK)

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6389/10019212se.th.jpg (http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10019212se.jpg)

SEAHAWK

01-21-2006, 04:46 PM

Your forces were used as CANNON FODDER by US commanders becouse they
were poorly trained and had no combat experience. The first Turkish commander was a veteran of Callipoli battle in 1915-16 !!!! Other allied forces
had as leaders veterans of ww2 of various fronts. Military analysts said that you were not an organised force but an ASKER meaning a bunch of individuals
attacking without any order- like the Ottomans. Other details about your
performance in Korea soon to be posted.

So, what your forces used for ? To clean toiletts, probably. rofl If Koreans made a statue for us, they'd know the the REAL heroes. huh ? Of course it's only an example.

Turkish soldiers weren't well equipped but they had got the BREAVEST HEART. They fought in a country which; most of the soldiers didn't even know the Korea's place in the world map... They fought for the freedom with a great dicipline. As always...

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/5615/10019307ro.th.jpg (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10019307ro.jpg)

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/9944/10019313ai.th.jpg (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10019313ai.jpg)

PELASGOS

01-21-2006, 07:12 PM

[QUOTE=SEAHAWK]So, what your forces used for ? To clean toiletts, probably. rofl If Koreans made a statue for us, they'd know the the REAL heroes. huh ? Of course it's only an example.

Plus the Turks didn't have anyone to speak f... English. In the official US
military history says that General John Coulter commander of IX Corps ordered
the Turkish battalion located to Wuawuon village to build defensive positions
and wait. The Turks left and came back to the starting point leaving 8 Army's
right side UNCOVERED. Thank God they had BREAVEST HEARTS.

it's not a contest who was better but i tell you this: Our forces were combat readybecouse of WW2 and three years of guerilla civil war. Certainly we didn't kill any poor South Koreans.And we spoke English

Beykoz

01-22-2006, 10:17 AM

Plus the Turks didn't have anyone to speak f... English. In the official US
military history says that General John Coulter commander of IX Corps ordered
the Turkish battalion located to Wuawuon village to build defensive positions
and wait. The Turks left and came back to the starting point leaving 8 Army's
right side UNCOVERED. Thank God they had BREAVEST HEARTS.

I see what you are doing...
In your pathetic attempt to insult the dead, you found one thing after hours of googling. In a war that lasted 3 years, you are picking on one instance where there, according to US records, was a misunderstanding. I am certain in all the battles and operations involving the Greek Army, there was nothing of the sort.:roll:

How about a brief summary of another battle from the official US military history you seem to have found :

Over on VEGAS the Chinese succeeded in taking one small finger of the hill and clung tenaciously despite the heavy automatic weapons, small arms, artillery, and mortar fire at them. The Turks sent a reinforcing platoon in to bolster the defenders and it arrived in time to help throw back a three-****ged enemy assault on the outpost. After reorganizing, the Chinese again sent a force estimated at two battalions to take the position. Ammunition began to run low and the Turkish 2d Battalion commander sent another platoon accompanied by Korean Service Corps personnel to resupply the embattled troops. After a brief respite in the fighting, the enemy tried again and this time the Chinese pushed through and hand-to-hand combat broke out in the trenches.

Meanwhile the Chinese had added a second battalion to the assault on CARSON and ELKO and closed upon the Turkish positions. Bayonets and hand grenades were used freely as the Turks managed to throw back the attack. The battalion commander sent an engineer platoon, then committed the rest of the engineer company to the defense of CARSON. Shortly after midnight the pace slackened, but observers reported that a third enemy battalion was assembling to join in the assault. Fire support from the 1st Battalion of the Turkish force and the U.S. 35th Infantry Regiment helped to disperse this reinforcing enemy battalion.

Gradually the enemy gained control of the northwest portion Of VEGAS and Turkish casualties were increasing. In a desperate effort to blunt the Chinese drive, the Turks began a counterattack to clear the hill. Savage in-fighting followed as the Turks slowly swept the enemy Off of VEGAS.

Nothing daunted, the Chinese regrouped and reinforced their offensive units, then came back again. They edged their way up VEGAS and met the indomitable Turks, who refused to be budged. Late in the morning of 29 May, the Turks launched a four-platoon attack that cleared VEGAS with cold steel. But the enemy in turn would not accept defeat and sent wave after wave of men against the Turkish stone wall, as casualties on both sides increased sharply.

The strength on VEGAS was down to 40-odd men, many of them wounded, and to 20-odd on ELKO. Over 150 men had been killed and 245 had been wounded in the defense of the NEVADA complex. On the other hand, the Chinese casualties were estimated roughly at 3,000 men.

and one more :

Major Carl A. Pollock, Liaison Officer to the Turkish Brigade

On the day before an assault crossing, we supplied the Turks with 340 feet of M38 infantry foot-bridging and instructions for its assembly. The crossing site was under heavy artillery and mortar fire. The Turkish engineer commander decided it would cost many lives to have his men work in the open, so he had the bridge assembled behind a small crest—150 yards from the river's edge. Once the bridge was assembled, several hundred troops picked it up and hand-carried it to the water's edge. During the carry, the bridge broke several times, whereupon everyone lowered it. When it was put back together, all lifted and moved on.

The bridge was put into the river at a 35- to 45-degree angle in the same direction as the current. At this angle it did not reach the opposite shore, but the men walked its length and jumped into the water to pull on ropes and bring the bridge astride the current. It was a smooth operation, quickly executed.

The Turks are excellent in improvising when they lack a critical item. I recall one instance where they were building a bridge and did not have enough nails for the job. Their solution was to drill holes and insert wooden pegs. In the United States, hand doweling is used only in cabinet work.

Here is a link to Turkish account of involvements in Korea (http://www.korean-war.com/turkey.html)

Here is a link to Greek account of involvements in Korea (http://www.korean-war.com/greece.html)

it's not a contest who was better but i tell you this: Our forces were combat readybecouse of WW2 and three years of guerilla civil war. Certainly we didn't kill any poor South Koreans.And we spoke English
If it's not a contest, WTF are you doing here...?
Start a thread about your forces' involvement in Korea and ejaculate from your mouth till you stop gagging.

Futile Talisman

01-22-2006, 11:03 AM

I won't participate in a flame war, but my grandfather was there, although he is a man of few words when it comes to the war, he did once say,

"Turks were some tough sons of bitches, I would sit in a trench with them anyday"

Disclaimer: I went to grad school in Turkey, lived there and visit often.

But those are true words I have passed on.

achilles

01-22-2006, 11:03 AM

The Turks rock. Because they are the master race....enough said p-)

SEAHAWK

01-22-2006, 12:59 PM

Here is a link to Turkish account of involvements in Korea (http://www.korean-war.com/turkey.html)

Here is a link to Greek account of involvements in Korea (http://www.korean-war.com/greece.html)

Isn't it enough to understand ? I think there is nothing left much to say. It's clear enough.

Soon, I will add a great text from SAVUNMA & HAVACILIK (DEFENCE AND AEROSPACE) for Turkish mates. (it's Turkish) And I will add a few pics too.

Vorian

01-22-2006, 01:13 PM

Here is a link to Turkish account of involvements in Korea

Here is a link to Greek account of involvements in Korea

So what? We must participate in every ****ing war to prove ourselves?

SEAHAWK

01-22-2006, 01:16 PM

So what? We must participate in every ****ing war to prove ourselves?

No. I didn't aim to say that to all you Greeks. Just PELASGOS. He will understand what I want to say.

Vorian

01-22-2006, 01:22 PM

Ok then. I will leave it to this.

PELASGOS

01-22-2006, 06:07 PM

I recommend to forum members to read the book 'The forgotten war-America in Korea by Clay Brair-New York Times Books 1987'. It is recommented reading by US army's official site. There is the full story about the creation of the super Turks in Korea.

.

Beykoz

01-22-2006, 08:55 PM

The Turks rock. Because they are the master race....enough said p-)
AH, this thread wouldn't be complete without your useless contribution. Thanks, please come again.

So what? We must participate in every ****ing war to prove ourselves?
Noone asked you to prove yourselves.
This thread isn't about you, i am sorry you have the feeling that it is.

I recommend to forum members to read the book 'The forgotten war-America in Korea by Clay Brair-New York Times Books 1987'. It is recommented reading by US army's official site. There is the full story about the creation of the super Turks in Korea.
How stupid are you dude...?
The books are written by people who have their prerogative beliefs and as much as they may try to be neutral on any event, there is always evidence to spoil that.
As i said at the very beginning, for every link, book, testimony that you can find to belittle our efforts in Korea, i can find 10 to praise and refute your claims.

You are like sh1t stuck on a blanket, hard to get rid of !!!

achilles

01-23-2006, 03:18 AM

AH, this thread wouldn't be complete without your useless contribution. Thanks, please come again.

Yes i know. Thanks. Let me refresh your limited memory on YOUR extremely constructive contribution...

How stupid are you dude...?

You are like sh1t stuck on a blanket, hard to get rid of !!!

Show some fvcken respect !!!

Start a thread about your forces' involvement in Korea and ejaculate from your mouth till you stop gagging.

What would this thread do without your profanity?

Indeed, show some freaking respect when you use your keyboard, or just shut the vomitting cockholster that you use as a mouth.

I know nothing of the Turkish involvement in Korea so i could use some info from both sides, without your idiocy is this is possible. Thanks in advance.

Clearday-TRForce

01-23-2006, 04:15 AM

I very much hope we (Turks & Greeks) will appreciate civil thoughts in peace. We will tolerate our differences. We will save each our lives. I hope we will not use each threads as a vomitting place of our engineered political hatred.

Come and look! We have got many things exactly the same. We both taste the same.

Yes, when I first saw the wreckage I just didn't expect there to be so many survivors.But think! there are still survivors who use human brain.

regards,
CDTRF

Kontra1

01-23-2006, 05:21 AM

Ah...our greek friends at it again with their "constructive" contributions :)

Here is a pretty objective insight of some of the events.Besides some other minor things,the language was of course problem for the Turks in a foreign soil with foreign troops fighting against a common enemy.But despite of everything, their contribution in the fight against the communism on the behalf of freeworld cannot be underestimated.

Article from Military History Magazine

Turkish Brigade's Baptism of Fire

Inexperienced but well trained and eager to show their mettle, the first Turkish troops arrived in Korea just in time to face the Chinese onslaught of November 1950.
By A.K. Starbuck

The Korean War, described by many, including then President Harry S. Truman, as a police action, marked the first time that the United States and the fledgling United Nations organization entered into a partnership to halt the advance of the Cold War into the Far East.

A total of 22 nations agreed to send either troops or medical units. Sixteen countries responded to the U.N. resolution by sending troops to halt the invasion of South Korea by the North Koreans. One of the first of the major participants to send a brigade was Turkey. The first Turkish contingent arrived on October 19, 1950, and in varying strengths remained until midsummer 1954.

The Turks' arrival in Korea garnered a considerable amount of publicity. The Turkish soldiers' fierce appearance, flowing mustaches and great knives were a war correspondent's dream come true. Although they had not fought in a major conflict since World War I, the Turkish soldiers had the reputation of being rough, hard fighters who preferred the offensive position and gave no quarter in battle. Most of the enlisted men were young and carried a sidearm sword that, to Americans and the other U.N. troops, appeared to be a long knife. No other U.N. troops were armed with that kind of knife, or indeed any other weapon out of the ordinary. The Turks had a dangerous proficiency in close combat with their long knives that made all other Allied forces want to stay clear of them

The Turks, armed and trained by American military advisers, did better than even they had hoped or expected in this, their first real combat since World War I. The American units to which they were attached respected their skills and tenacity in combat. Some comments by American officers give insight into the Turks and their abilities. "They really prefer to be on the offensive and handle it quite well," went one appraisal. "They are not as good at defensive positions, and certainly never retreat." Another report told of their patrol skills: "Certain Turkish patrols always reported high body counts when they returned from patrols. Headquarters always scoffed at the high numbers, much higher in fact than any other unit, until the Turks decided to bring the enemy bodies back and dump them at headquarters for the body count."

The Turks acquitted themselves in a brave and noble fashion in some of the worst conditions experienced in the Korean War. Very little else could have been required or expected of them. Their heavy casualties speak of their honor and commitment. Their bravery requires no embellishment. It stands on its own.

3 pages of pretty good read which describes only one of the events...

http://historynet.com/mh/blbaptismoffire/index.html

Discussions about the 14th Infantry Regiment in Korea would be incomplete without some reference to the Turks. We fought alongside, relieved and were relieved by the Turks. The Turks earned the reputation as fierce fighters in Korea. Talk with almost any Korean War veteran who served in the 14th and you are likely to hear a Turk story (some true, some half-true, and some complete fabrications). Still, most Turk stories are believable for those of us who had some contact with the Turks in Korea.
- Glen Thompson -- Charlie Company, 14th Infantry Regiment

http://1-14th.com/KoreaDir.html

Caption:
Members of the Turkish Artillery Battalion raise their country's flag at a camp site in the 25th Division Area, early 1950s. With their extreme bravery in action, Turkish troops won the admiration of all U.N. forces in Korea.
http://cache.*****images.com/xc/55832313.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=9B823DF6B894E2D23299AEF5390F94B3

Caption:
6th December 1950: Turkish troops line the side of a road, awaiting a Chinese attack, during the Korean War, (1950 - 1953), fought between North Korea, aided by Communist China, and South Korea, supported by the US and the members of the UN.
http://cache.*****images.com/xc/3282085.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=4F84C7EF07395AB6D1CA21955671BAAF

Caption:
8th December 1950: Turkish UN troops search captured Chinese troops for weapons during the Korean War.
http://cache.*****images.com/xc/3262683.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=10276273D480F6D816381C44A5B911C5

Caption:
December 1950: Turks marching prisoners back to the Command Post as more troops move up to engage the enemy during the Korean War
http://cache.*****images.com/xc/3254816.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=12F00EB112845DEC3DFF6B2A21B7A4FF

SEOUL, REPUBLIC OF KOREA: A Turkish veteran stands in front of the names of his colleague soldiers killed during the Korean war at the Korean war Memorial in Seoul, 24 June 2005. South Korea has invited 83 foreign veterans to a ceremony marking the 55th Anniversary of the outbreak of a three-year war which began on June 25 in 1950. The United States and 15 other countries fought alongside South Korea under the UN flag against North Korean and Chinese troops
http://cache.*****images.com/xc/53142539.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=1E6F42FA721B756D410321E5B0E9ADC4

SEAHAWK

01-23-2006, 07:16 AM

A few pics from DEFENCE AND AEROSPACE (SAVUNMA VE HAVACILIK)

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5103/10019248tf.th.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10019248tf.jpg)

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4444/10019250tl.th.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10019250tl.jpg)

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6899/10019267zs.th.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10019267zs.jpg)

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4492/10019297kq.th.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10019297kq.jpg)

Clearday-TRForce

01-23-2006, 09:47 AM

mate,

you can use these photos in Turkish Armed Forces section.

Scyth

01-23-2006, 09:55 AM

achilles

01-23-2006, 09:55 AM

What´s the unit in your avatar CD? The red berets? They look a bit like the Seals...

Futile Talisman

01-23-2006, 10:05 AM

Kontra,

Great pics, gonna show my buyuk baba, gonna have to tell him what a computer is first:)

Thanks Kardes

Seahawk, thanks too!

PS anyone got a pic of the memorial from the Korean government?

derkrieger

01-23-2006, 11:06 AM

"Another report told of their patrol skills: "Certain Turkish patrols always reported high body counts when they returned from patrols. Headquarters always scoffed at the high numbers, much higher in fact than any other unit, until the Turks decided to bring the enemy bodies back and dump them at headquarters for the body count."

This is sick, in a good way !!

PELASGOS

01-23-2006, 02:32 PM

Thanks for the pictures. PELASGOS you make me sick. You and a few other Greeks in this forum are a shame to your nation. I read with interest the posts of other Greeks in this forum though. Your non-sensical babble is just disgusting. The link you gave is North Korean propaganda. You can't even troll properly.

The aim of this thread was to underline the role of discipline in POWs. Especially after some forum members wrote eulogies of hazing and similar practices in the army, I just wanted to show that pure and undiluted discipline, rather than savage abuse, was the key for survival.

If you want to talk about that, go ahead. If not, go back to your shaythole.

Turks claim that their POWs were the most resistant to the Chinese communist propaganda. Yes but the Turks and Chinese could not communicate at all becouse the Turks spoke only Turkish. Contrary the other
allied soldiers were exposed to the brainwashing simply because spoke English.

Over the centuries you didn't learn anything about fighting. You just have
large masses of expendable barbarians (if i call them soldiers will be an insult to soldiering) making attacks in waves. That's what happend most recently in Cyprus in 1974 where you fought minimal Greek forces plus GreekCypriots with Lee Enfield's and with your NATO armament yet you were ****. Just read
your General's memoirs(Demirel's) if your democratic state allows you to read it.

To the readers of the English RAIDS i will remind an issue of 1994 about Greek Paras. There an instructor,veteran of 1974 who participated in the battle for Nicosia airport said: The Turks kept coming in waves suffering heavy losses.My impression is that they wanted us to expend all our ammo to them!!! I am translating these days an article about this battle and i will post it when i finish. And if you had these tactical skills in 1974, imagine what happened in Korea.

PELASGOS

01-23-2006, 02:36 PM

What´s the unit in your avatar CD? The red berets? They look a bit like the Seals...

It's a photo of the Turkish ministry of health for incest prevention.

PELASGOS

01-23-2006, 02:38 PM

Beykoz

01-23-2006, 04:00 PM

Yes i know. Thanks. Let me refresh your limited memory on YOUR extremely constructive contribution...

What would this thread do without your profanity?
If you bother to read all my posts, it's obvious that i contributed in this thread.
I certainly didn't have any intentions to join with a single lined insult.

Indeed, show some freaking respect when you use your keyboard, or just shut the vomitting cockholster that you use as a mouth.
Newsflash for you pal !!!
You have to earn some respect, it's not your god given right to demand it.
While i am sure our fallen veterans deserve a bit of respect, Pelasgos doesn't. Neither so you with your pathetic ramblings solely based on one's nationality.
If you joined the thread offering a bit of caution to your country-man and helping him to show some decency, you would've earned some.
If you didn't want to do that, than you should've stayed out rather than jumping in with a smartarsed dig.

I know nothing of the Turkish involvement in Korea so i could use some info from both sides, without your idiocy is this is possible. Thanks in advance. NO WAY !!!
A great historian like you, all clued up about any event and issue the Turks were a part of, do not know anything about our involvement in Korea...?
UNPOSSIBLE !!!

Nevertheless, feel free to read the whole thread rather than concentrating on my profanities and throwing them at my face as a retarded comeback.

I hoped in the other thread, (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1335497&postcount=24) you wouldn't have more to say on a subject, but you didn't disappoint with your regurgitating spasms even though i was banned and couldn't reply. So, here i hope again that, you don't have more to say regarding this, in this thread.

Blah, blah, blah...

Blaaaaaah...

UGH!
Give it up dude...
You are looking more pathetic each time you post.

PELASGOS

01-23-2006, 06:12 PM

UGH? Guess what the poor Chinese brainwasher suffered with Turks in Korea.

Beykoz

01-23-2006, 07:49 PM

UGH? Guess what the poor Chinese brainwasher suffered with Turks in Korea.
OH dear...

"UGH!" is basically, all you are able to deliver without sounding like an idiot. So, if i were you, i would stick to that.

Following are some testimonies from US veterans who served in Korea, NOT from a bigoted lunatic who once possibly read a book.

Anyone who was in Korea, 22 April 1951 when the CCF over ran our positions, then knows what all took place that evening.

My unit was ordered to move back to the next hill and to cover our people who were high tailing south.

I was on a 50 Cal. MG and as we were headed south to the next set of hills, we ran into a group of Turks marching in formation. As they approached us, the leader, asked us in perfect English as to where we were going. We explained our mission and I can remember him looking at us, saying "but the fighting is in the other direction" We tried to tell him the Chinese were all over the place, but he said they were headed to the battle.

That was the first and only time I had met any Turks in Korea. I often wondered what happened to them.

John Sonley Korea 1951

At one point ,I think it as middle winter of 51, the Turks were on the line
to our right flank and we could see them at night
with fires that they built on the front face of the hill to antagonize the
Chinese.
Jerry K W 51-52

Only once did we see other troops beside us. We were on the line, but not in bunkers or foxholes, when an outfit of Turkish troops passed through our lines at night. We were given orders to relace our boots in a specific manner and to hold our fire. The Turks had been trained as night fighters, we were told, and the lacing job was how they identified friend from foes who had seized Army or Marine footgear. They were good! We did not know they were advancing through us until individuals were tapped on the ankle by the grinning Turks, who slithered on by in silence.

Our right flank was manned by Turkish soldiers. They were excellent troops. They had a tradition that once their sword was withdrawn from its scabbard, it could not be returned without tasting blood, even if it was their own.

While we were in reserve, LtCol. Armitage had the opportunity to hold several excellent briefings for all of the battalion's officers and staff NCOs. Held in a "movie theater" area, the briefings covered the general situation across the Division's front, and the latest intelligence about the Chinese forces we were facing. During one, I remember that he described an operation that the Turkish battalion had pulled off. Strong indications and intelligence had been received that one Turkish company was to be hit by a night attack by the Chinese. Instead of hunkering down in their fighting positions, the Turks had pulled back to the reverse slope. They let the Chinese completely overrun the position--then counterattacked with fixed bayonets. They surprised and routed the Chinese, and inflicted what were described as great casualties on the surprised Chinese. And it was all done at night. We all admired at the discipline required for such a successful night counterattack.

Our purpose was to treat the wounded from the front lines as best we could, and then in the morning the C-47's started coming in early. We got the wounded on the planes for the hospital. Occasionally we were so close we could see the fighting, and the airfield just a hundred yards outside the medical tent. The C-47's were piloted by Turks and Greeks, air cowboys of the first order. They landed and we loaded the wounded on--six medics brought the stretchers out to the plane and six medics on the plane took them aboard and strapped them in firmly. Twelve medics could load a C-47 and have it back in the air in less than an hour. Inclement weather, low ceiling, the Turks always came through. It was a beautiful sight to see a Turk bring a C-47 in through the low hanging clouds....part of the mythical flying lore was that when no one else would fly, the Turks would.

This is where I must tell you about the Turks. Each American division had a United Nations group with them. We (the 25th infantry) had a brigade from Turkey with us. The Turks were all volunteers and they were the meanest, toughest, fighting-est men you have ever seen. Our division had three regiments, and we would keep two on the line and one behind in reserve. We would rotate so that no one stayed on the line all the time. But the Turks would not come off the line. They said they came there to fight and they stayed on the line. Turks love knives. They all carry big, long knives and are expert in the use of them. They have a saying, “Lots of ammunition – no fun; little ammunition – little fun. No ammunition – lots of fun.” This is because at that time, they fought only with knives. The chinks (Chinese communists) soon learned that they did not want any close combat with the Turks because the Turks would cut them to pieces. They also hated a coward.

Someone in the company found a brewery and brought back some to the company. When they went back for more, the Military Police was guarding it and wouldn't let them have any. While in this position, the Turks were in the same area preparing to cross the Han River with us, so I had a chance to meet some of them. I went to their position and they were sitting around a fire drinking hot chocolate. When I came over to them, an officer jumped up and offered me his seat on a box and gave me his hot chocolate. He was wearing a pair of boots that had the soles worn completely through, so I went back to the supply truck and got him a new pair of boots. He was so happy that he couldn't thank me enough. The Turks were usually attached to the 25th Division and were in support or on our flanks on many operations. There are many stories of the Turks and what great fighters they were, and from what I saw of them, the stories are probably all true. We never had to worry about them leaving their positions until they were ordered to do so. They were fearless fighters and the Chinese were not to eager to confront them.

But Njus said that, above all other foreign troops fighting in Korea, the Turks were the best. "They were fearless and bloodthirsty. One time they were on an outpost to our front, and the chinks hit them after dark. We could hear the shooting all night long. Just at the break of day a dozen or so Turks came to the front of our lines. They were running short of ammo at the outpost, so they had fought their way through the chink encirclement to get more ammo. We loaded them up and they fought their way back into the outpost. Shortly after, the chinks broke off the attack. Rumor was they had left a lot of dead behind."

Includes darkreiger's quote:

Concerning the fighting abilities of the Turkish Brigade, here is what
American officers said about that:

"In the course of the U.N. offensive and the Chinese counteroffensive, the
1st Turkish Brigade suffered 3,514 casualties, of which 741 were killed in
action, 2,068 wounded, 163 missing and 244 taken prisoner, as well as 298
noncombatant casualties.

"The Turks, armed and trained by American military advisers, did better than
even they had hoped or expected in this, their first real combat since World
War I. The American units to which they were attached respected their skills
and tenacity in combat. Some comments by American officers give insight into
the Turks and their abilities. "They really prefer to be on the offensive
and handle it quite well," went one appraisal. "They are not as good at
defensive positions, and certainly never retreat." Another report told of
their patrol skills: "Certain Turkish patrols always reported high body
counts when they returned from patrols. Headquarters always scoffed at the
high numbers, much higher in fact than any other unit, until the Turks
decided to bring the enemy bodies back and dump them at headquarters for the
body count."" At: http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/TurkishBrigade.htm
This was written by A.K. Dawson and originally published in Military
History Magazine December 1997. A.K. Dawson teaches history in Darwin,
Australia.

And, "When ammunition ran low, the Brigade fixed bayonets and fought the
enemy hand to hand. Today we honor that first of many battles fought by the
Turkish Brigade in Korea. The Turkish Brigade went on to win two
Distinguished Unit Citations for their gallantry during the Korean War."
Spoken by Ambassador W. Robert Pearson at the Wreath Laying at the Turkish
Korean War Memorial on November 22, 2000. At:
http://usconsulate-istanbul.org.tr/korea/koreamb.html

Also on the same occasion, Major General Elmer D. Pendleton stated on
January 25, 2001 that:

"Finally I want to tell you two points about my thoughts of Turkish soldiers
because that's what this is all about:

A. As a soldier one of the things that i like about Turkish soldiers is that
they are trained to look you right in the eye.. No looking down at their
feet, no lack of confidence, but a feeling of pride in ones's self, one's
army and one's country..
B. Secondly, a popular American army song describing our army says it all
"it wasn't always easy and it wasn't always fair but when we were needed we
were there."

Life isn't always easy and it isn't always fair, but when the Turkish
brigade was needed you were there. On behalf of your American friends, thank
you." At: http://usconsulate-istanbul.org.tr/korea/koreagp.html

And this same unit was to receive a Presidential Unit Citation for its war
efforts. On January 24, 2002, the date marks the 51st Anniversary of the
Turkish Brigade receiving America's presidential citation for valor for its
exemplary combat record during the Korean War and the second ceremony
honoring this occasion. Turkey is also the only nation to receive the
citation twice.

"The unit was deployed along a seven-mile front between I and IX Corps.
Enemy-held hills and Kumyangjang-ni fell to the Turkish Brigade through
bitter hand-to-hand combat. During the Korean War, 741 Turkish soldiers
died, 2,068 were wounded and 407 were missing in action. However, they
inflicted disproportionate casualties on the hostile forces, which reflected
the success of the Turkish contribution to the campaign." At:
http://korea50.army.mil/media/newsrelease/newsRelease_02-06.html

'Nuf said.

Harold Stockton

Clearday-TRForce

01-24-2006, 02:25 AM

What´s the unit in your avatar CD? The red berets? They look a bit like the Seals...

Police Special Operation Units. "Ozel Harekat"

http://aafoto.anadoluajansi.com.tr/getFileServlet?sfx=2&arcId=391019
http://aafoto.anadoluajansi.com.tr/getFileServlet?sfx=2&arcId=440767

achilles

01-24-2006, 04:39 AM

If you joined the thread offering a bit of caution to your country-man and helping him to show some decency, you would've earned some.
If you didn't want to do that, than you should've stayed out rather than jumping in with a smartarsed dig.

I dont know Pelasgos' real intentions behind posting in this thread but it seems that he offered an alternative/complementary view of your involvement in Korea but your entrenched bigotry inflated your hemoroides and pushed you towards making a complete ****head out of yourself. You could have just refuted him instead of polluting this place with your spam.

NO WAY !!!
A great historian like you, all clued up about any event and issue the Turks were a part of, do not know anything about our involvement in Korea...?
UNPOSSIBLE !!!

Apparently my statement showed that this is not how i perceive myself.

And i got newsflash for you...is IMPOSSIBLE, kardas, unpossible is a word that belongs tothe sphere of your fantasy. Try using a dictionary for a change.

Nevertheless, feel free to read the whole thread rather than concentrating on my profanities and throwing them at my face as a retarded comeback.

If you eventually remove your void head from your sphincter i might be able to concentrate on the facts that both Greeks and Turks present in this thread.

So if you have the good will to stop wasting my time with your retarded replies, please do so by all means and keep on posting useful info.

Your kardas...

achilles

01-24-2006, 04:39 AM

Thanks for the clarification CD

Scyth

01-24-2006, 05:09 AM

GREEKS! This is a thread about Turkish involvement in Korea. No relation whatsoever with you creatures. Leave this thread AT ONCE. You are a stain on your race. I pity you all, and especially that pervert PELASGOS.

Maybe what we did to the Chimese remind you of what we did to you. I undersand it hurts. But there are plenty of other threads to satisfy yourselves.

Flagg

01-24-2006, 05:14 AM

It's a photo of the Turkish ministry of health for incest prevention.

You're taking a break........and getting a negative rep.

Come back with a better attitude...or don't come back

Scyth

01-24-2006, 05:19 AM

Beykoz, your posts about American witnesses say a lot more than what WE can say. What the Greeks say is therefore irrelevent. Let the facts and history speak for themselves. I apologize to the valliant dead of the Korean War for what this thread has become.

Kontra1

01-24-2006, 06:01 AM

There were even couple of M*A*S*H episodes involving the Turkish troops also. :)

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/image.php?u=2321&dateline=1136102846

achilles

01-24-2006, 06:16 AM

Clearday-TRForce

01-24-2006, 07:33 AM

Another pissing contest of Turks and Greeks.

(Beykoz,do you know, I live in Kanlica - Beykoz):)

Beykoz

01-24-2006, 07:42 AM

I dont know Pelasgos' real intentions behind posting in this thread but it seems that he offered an alternative/complementary view of your involvement in Korea but your entrenched bigotry inflated your hemoroides and pushed you towards making a complete ****head out of yourself. You could have just refuted him instead of polluting this place with your spam.

Pelasgos's only intention was to pollute this thread, in a very disrespectful way.
I welcome any alternative view and have an open mind for most things. If you can manage to get away from under my feet since i joined, you may realize this.
I refuted his claims all along and backed up with good information you chose to call spam, but like you, he doesn't seem to be able to digest it. Perhaps it's because they aren't anti-Turkish. He ran out of talent when he hit puberty, what is your excuse...?

Apparently my statement showed that this is not how i perceive myself.

And i got newsflash for you...is IMPOSSIBLE, kardas, unpossible is a word that belongs tothe sphere of your fantasy. Try using a dictionary for a change.

Yes, it did indeed, which is what i was shocked at.
However, my reply was infering to you previous statements. Again, it went over your head.

Thanks for the newsflash, though i think i can dictate well enough on my own.
'Unpossible' is a quote from Simpsons where Ralph Wiggum says : "Me fail English? That's unpossible."
You are definitely clutching at straws if you see yourself in a position to correct my grammar.

If you eventually remove your void head from your sphincter i might be able to concentrate on the facts that both Greeks and Turks present in this thread.

So if you have the good will to stop wasting my time with your retarded replies, please do so by all means and keep on posting useful info.

Your kardas...
'Sphincter' hey...?
I witnessed you use that saying in numerous occasions in the last month. Does it make you look smart...? Surely that's unpossible !

Blaming me for your lack of concentration is rather tedious. How many times did your dog eat your homework in the past...? Eleventy billion...? Before you say it, i know it's not a real number. It comes from SNL-Celebrity Jeopardy.

My good will is ready and waiting if/when you stop making an arse of yourself.

Beykoz

01-24-2006, 07:48 AM

(Beykoz,do you know, I live in Kanlica - Beykoz):)
No, definitely not mate.

My grandparents settled in Beykoz and I was born and raised there. Lived there for 19 years.

Beautiful part of the world.:)

Futile Talisman

01-24-2006, 09:08 AM

Police Special Operation Units. "Ozel Harekat"

http://aafoto.anadoluajansi.com.tr/getFileServlet?sfx=2&arcId=391019
http://aafoto.anadoluajansi.com.tr/getFileServlet?sfx=2&arcId=440767

Clearday - TRFORCE,

I remember always seeing uniformed security services with the labels "Ozel Harekat Tim" on their uniforms. They rarely dressed tactical, more like everyday cops, with black uniforms but not kitted out like above (just from what I saw) but were a clear presence on the streets.

It was almost as if they were there to back up polis imdat. Are there sub divisions of Ozel Harekat, meaning a separate tactical force with augmented mission parameters?

Do they have a riot control portfolio, or is this excluse to Chivik Kuuvet.

Thanks in advance.

achilles

01-25-2006, 03:48 AM

edited by Flagg

achilles

01-25-2006, 03:53 AM

My good will is ready and waiting if/when you stop making an arse of yourself.

I will circumvent your decent, yet failed, attempt to be funny and a total smartass and prompt you to this thread:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=69784

I heard that it helps the removal of anyone's head from his sphincter...hey,here it is again...sphincter...no it doesnt make me feel smarter, i just enjoy using Greek words when writing in English. ;)

I hope you will me spare me your extremely catchy lines next time you reply to any of my posts.

I ll be seeing you around ;)

Futile Talisman

01-25-2006, 04:06 AM

Clearday - TRFORCE,

I remember always seeing uniformed security services with the labels "Ozel Harekat Tim" on their uniforms. They rarely dressed tactical, more like everyday cops, with black uniforms but not kitted out like above (just from what I saw) but were a clear presence on the streets.

It was almost as if they were there to back up polis imdat. Are there sub divisions of Ozel Harekat, meaning a separate tactical force with augmented mission parameters?

Do they have a riot control portfolio, or is this excluse to Chivik Kuuvet.

Thanks in advance.

CD-Force,

No rush, I just wanted to be sure with all the other stuff in the thread you didn't miss my question in the mess.

Sag Ol

Flagg

01-25-2006, 04:25 AM

PELASGOS asked me to postthis publicly, cause he felt he should explain himself:

To flagg

Dear moderator my banning is unjust .If the reason is my comment 'incest prevention' said in a humorous way you should banned the Turkish members who used from the start bad language.The worse i called them was' expendable barbarians'. My intention was one:To present what is common knowlegde to Greek army that the Turks performed bad in Korea for numerous reasons. If you read the topic from the start you see that my comments about tactical matters were presented in a non flame way and only when this thread was about to end i used this one phrase-BTW which are the multiple stupid comments? Isn't it right that they killed South Koreans? Since my the first time in the militaryphotos back in 2004 i had some disputes saying a lot worse -all parties did but i was never banned. That's why i wonder what is your motive for this ban. You should inform me first that a ban is an option and not leave the thread to escalate,take five stars, and at its end ,ban me. So the result of this ban is that the members have the impression that since i was banned i was talking nonsense.

Saying these i kindly ask two things: First cancell my ban and second, in case you insist ,please include this message as a forum topic. You will agree that the banned user has the right to explain himself. Otherwise we go to ex 1989 commie block.

Thank you for time and hospitality.

Right.......

Firstly......this is NOT a democracy, it is Hood's domain

He has appointed a number of us to keep things civil...

PELASGOS failed to remain civil...so I sacked him

a banned user does not have an automatic right to explain him/herself after banning in open forum

NO ATTEMPT was made to PM me or any other Mod to my knowledge regarding this issue

Now that PELASGOS has found a need to whine about it via another member in open forum, his banning will be extended another week and Achilles will now join PELASGOS for the duration of his temp ban for inciting his crybaby BS.

If anyone else wishes to complain take it to PM, if you continue to cry about it in open forum, you'll get sacked as well.

STOP flaming each other......there is ZERO tolerance for the "usual suspect" greek/turk , serb/bosnian , Russian/Polish cr@p.

Anyone spouts poop and everyone within dead cat swinging distance gets a temp ban

If you don't like my particular approach, I strongly encourage you to PM our site owner Hood or other Mods......I'll bet a case of beer they're sack your @ss faster than me

ALL of the mods are sick of your racial/ethnic hatred..........

Zorro C9

01-25-2006, 05:29 AM

Oh God...this is the best laugh I've had for awhile.

Scyth

01-25-2006, 05:35 AM

Right.......

Firstly......this is NOT a democracy, it is Hood's domain

He has appointed a number of us to keep things civil...

PELASGOS failed to remain civil...so I sacked him

a banned user does not have an automatic right to explain him/herself after banning in open forum

NO ATTEMPT was made to PM me or any other Mod to my knowledge regarding this issue

Now that PELASGOS has found a need to whine about it via another member in open forum, his banning will be extended another week and Achilles will now join PELASGOS for the duration of his temp ban for inciting his crybaby BS.

If anyone else wishes to complain take it to PM, if you continue to cry about it in open forum, you'll get sacked as well.

STOP flaming each other......there is ZERO tolerance for the "usual suspect" greek/turk , serb/bosnian , Russian/Polish cr@p.

Anyone spouts poop and everyone within dead cat swinging distance gets a temp ban

If you don't like my particular approach, I strongly encourage you to PM our site owner Hood or other Mods......I'll bet a case of beer they're sack your @ss faster than me

ALL of the mods are sick of your racial/ethnic hatred..........

Fair enough. I just wish we could erase all the BS posts (Turk as well as Greek) in this thread and revert to the posts solely related to its title. My original aim in opening this thread was Turkish involvement in Korea. I really wanted some feedback on this "forgotten war" by forum members. The Korean War means a lot to me since family members fought in it.

Flagg

01-25-2006, 05:43 AM

Fair enough. I just wish we could erase all the BS posts (Turk as well as Greek) in this thread and revert to the posts solely related to its title. My original aim in opening this thread was Turkish involvement in Korea. I really wanted some feedback on this "forgotten war" by forum members. The Korean War means a lot to me since family members fought in it.

Understandable.

I'm more than willing to try and keep an eye out on a particular thread when time allows.

I've only recently gotten back from a bit away and I'm trying to play catch up with my civvie stuff at the moment.

If you need some help on this thread or another thread in the future that's vulnerable to the usual racial/ethnic BS, PM me and I'll try my best to keep a close eye on it for anyone from ANY side acting like a twit.

Scyth

01-25-2006, 06:15 AM

Thanks Flagg.

SEAHAWK

01-25-2006, 06:20 AM

A few pics

U.S. Congressman John P. Murtha (Democrat -- Pennsylvania 12 District) of the House of Representatives (as Rep. Hobson) was one lawmaker who remembered the great Turkish-American solidarity that shaped history fifty years ago in the cold, harsh, and unforgiving hills of Korea.
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/pics/korean/korean-war-salute.JPG

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/pics/korean/korean-war-strategy.JPG

General Yazici gets the Silver Star from U.S.
8th Army General Walton H. Walker, for Yazici's
heroism and courage during the Kunuri battles.

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/pics/korean/korea-medal.JPG

The South Korean monument reads, in part:

"On October 17, 1950, Turkey dispatched army units to defend the freedom of Korea and the peace of the world. From that time until the Korean Armistice was signed in 1953, the Turkish forces fought valiantly in the Battles of Kumu-ri, Wawon, Shillim-ri, Uijongim, Yonch'on, T'oegyewon, Kumhwa and Hansullim. They suffered 717 dead, 2,246 wounded and 167 missing in action. Even after the war, the Turkish troops remained in Korea until July 1966."

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/pics/korean/korean-war-monument.JPG

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/pics/korean/korean-war-orphans.JPG

Futile Talisman

01-25-2006, 07:03 AM

Thanks for the monument pic Sea Hawk, I took one years ago but lost track of it.

note: Rep. John Murtha put extensive remarks in the US Confressional record regarging his high praise for the fighting skills, tenacity, and all around honor of the Turkish Brigade. Unfortunately the online archive is quite extensive but I hope to locate the renarks in full and post a link to them.

FT

Greek soldier

01-25-2006, 09:06 AM

Now that PELASGOS has found a need to whine about it via another member in open forum, his banning will be extended another week and Achilles will now join PELASGOS for the duration of his temp ban for inciting his crybaby BS.

Is there any forum rule that says "Other users that post messages from banned members will be banned as well"??

Unless I forget something...

Flagg

01-25-2006, 01:18 PM

Is there any forum rule that says "Other users that post messages from banned members will be banned as well"??

Unless I forget something...

How about common sense?

When a user is banned, they are unable to post for the duration of their ban.

When another forum member knowingly helps a banned user to circumvent the ban(and their penalty) by continuing to post undermines the authority of the mods given by the admin to manage this forum.

it doesn't take a rocket scientist to grasp the concept.

If you sincerely can't understand that, take it up in PM with the admin.

If you have common sense but just want to stir poop, I'll be happy to ban you too, irregardless of whether you are Greek, Turk, gay, straight, liberal, or conservative.

Greek soldier

01-25-2006, 01:51 PM

How about common sense?

When a user is banned, they are unable to post for the duration of their ban.

When another forum member knowingly helps a banned user to circumvent the ban(and their penalty) by continuing to post undermines the authority of the mods given by the admin to manage this forum.

it doesn't take a rocket scientist to grasp the concept.

If you sincerely can't understand that, take it up in PM with the admin.

If you have common sense but just want to stir poop, I'll be happy to ban you too, irregardless of whether you are Greek, Turk, gay, straight, liberal, or conservative.

I am sincere and have common sense, but what about adding it to the MP.net rules? At least to have that "you see, you broke the forum rules"...To have a written argument I want to say.

Greek soldier

01-25-2006, 01:54 PM

Back on topic. Korea war was for all of the world a big battle. No matter if the X Army wasn't good or the Y Army didn't have any prior experience (WW II), we must admit that

a) All countries contributed
b) MAny soldeirs were killed
c) Respect the soldiers, their families and their willingness to participate to a war that was thousands of miles away from their homeland.

Scyth

01-30-2006, 09:04 AM

Have found another pic for our ANZAC friends:

http://www.awm.gov.au/korea/images/enlargements/279526.jpg

Majon'ni, Korea, 25 April 1953. Australian and Turkish troops stand together to watch an ANZAC Day parade.

Scyth

01-30-2006, 09:12 AM

Harry Gordon, an Australian journalist, one of the youngest Australian reporters in Korea:

“The Turks continued to fight with a ferocity which made them something of a legend in Korea. In one action they are on record as having complained bitterly that the artillery barrage put in to soften up an enemy before their charge was too heavy … there weren't enough live Chinese left to make a decent fight.

“If the seeds of this joint respect were planted at Gallipoli; it ripened in the dust and snow of Korea. The Turks' relish for hand-to-hand fighting, their first-class leadership, their discipline under fire… these were attributes the Australians in Korea possessed themselves and admired in others.”

saladin

02-03-2006, 03:13 AM

I found this interesting article:
http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/woundblstcs/chapter12.1.htm
Look at the Survey of Turkish Brigade, they were so close to the enemy they could identify their weapons visually.

Look at the wounds. Half of them are on the front and most of them are on the legs. So they were wounded when they were attacking. The ones on the back I suspect are both from the morters and gun when they were covering (note that the wounds are consantrated on the extremities so I suspect they were lying face down)

-------------

Survey of Turkish Brigade

The opportunity presented itself to make a casualty survey on wounded personnel all from one unit who were injured during a known period of combat. Members of the Turkish Brigade were interviewed at the Tokyo Army Hospital. This Brigade had been in action for 3 nights and 3 days (from the night of 27 November 1950 to the day of 30 November 1950) in the vicinity of Kunuri, Korea. A total of 407 injured were evacuated to Japan of which 387 were considered to have been hit by enemy missiles (the remainder were disease cases or nonbattle casualties). Of the 387 wounded in action, 286 were individually interrogated. This represented 74 percent of all the WIA casualties evacuated to Japan. The number of WIA casualties who remained in Korea was not known, but the number was believed to be small, and it was thought all were promptly returned to duty.

Interrogations, aided by Turkish officers who were available as interpreters, lasted from 5 to 15 minutes per casualty. What error, if any, was introduced by this procedure is unknown. Answers were usually prompt and direct. Most of the Turkish soldiers appeared very certain of the type of the weapons producing the missiles with which they were hit, sometimes stating the enemy was so close that the weapons were visible, or otherwise being able to give good reasons for distinguishing between mortar and grenade hits. The interrogation was accompanied by examination of the casualty.

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/woundblstcs/chapter12figure339.jpg

Scyth

02-03-2006, 05:53 AM

Thanks for the link Saladin. Interesting stuff.

SEAHAWK

02-04-2006, 03:42 PM

Really interesting, thanks. When I saw that graphic, I felt a bit strange.:(

Scyth

02-09-2006, 10:54 AM

More pics:
http://pro.corbis.com/images/U964272ACME.jpg?size=67&uid={640597b2-e471-4ca1-93bc-cbe85496bc99}
Keeping Covered. Members of a Turkish detachment, fighting with UN forces in Korea, move up behind the protection of an M-4 tank. The infantrymen are keeping enemy antitank crews from getting set up.
http://pro.corbis.com/images/HU022356.jpg?size=67&uid={ca006f09-b691-4f98-a3cc-bc0f02ec50db}
Turkish troops searching Chinese prisoners for arms shortly after capture.
http://pro.corbis.com/images/BE029757.jpg?size=67&uid={7db89d8c-9760-47a9-a815-9a7bd795b875}
Turkish and American troops get together for some drinks, toasting each other for their respective fighting abilities. Doing the honors is Turkish Capt. Gunesli.
http://pro.corbis.com/images/BE036371.jpg?size=67&uid={87fe438b-c3fc-4c32-8736-77860fde13ee}
A Turkish mortar crew is shown barricaded behind a huge stack of castings from expended ammunition they had hurled at the onrushing Chinese Communists, the Reds battered allied positions along the West and Central sectors despite heavy allied counter fire. The enemy attacked with a force of between fifteen and twenty thousand troops, the heaviest attack in seven months.

sp2c

02-09-2006, 11:38 AM

nice thread besides the flame war.

but everybody knows the Dutch battallion in Korea was teh c00lest ... best jungle fighters in the world according to stars and stripes ;)

I'll scan and post some pictures tomorrow

Scyth

02-09-2006, 11:40 AM

Jungle? Korea? I thought it was a freezing hell (during the war).

sp2c

02-09-2006, 11:44 AM

supposedly it was mostly hills covered with little forrests (and yes a freezing wasteland in the winters) ... but the troops in question came from the 'jungles' of the Netherlands Indies

Scyth

02-09-2006, 11:46 AM

supposedly it was mostly hills covered with little forrests (and yes a freezing wasteland in the winters) ... but the troops in question came from the 'jungles' of the Netherlands Indies

Thanks for the info. Will be looking forward to your pics.

sp2c

02-09-2006, 11:55 AM

I'll open a thread about it tomorrow (not wanting to hijack this thread or whatever is left of it after the flaming) but in the meantime here's some info
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/documents/ndvn/ndvnintro.html