Iran defends Holocaust debate

[ed316]

http://english.aljazeera.net/english/images/logo_white.gif


Iran defends Holocaust debate
by
Tuesday 24 January 2006 2:08 PM GMT
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdonlyres/ADDA9377-A12B-4350-A150-B9555F58FB1C/109899/CDD1C5D569804CD08EC3AD7F858D9356.jpg Ahmadinejad has described the Holocaust as a "myth"

Iran has defended its plan to stage a conference questioning the Holocaust, accusing the British prime minister of "intolerance" for criticising the event.


Hamid Reza Asefi, a Foreign Ministry spokesman, said on Tuesday: "The comments by Prime Minister Tony Blair are an insult to the intelligence of people around the world.

"For half a century, the defenders of the Holocaust have used every tribune to defend their position, and now have to listen to others."

The foreign ministry announced plans for the conference last week, a month after Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, described the systematic slaughter of an estimated six million Jews during the second world war as a "myth".

On Monday, Blair branded the plan "shocking, ridiculous, stupid" and said Ahmadinejad "should come and see the evidence of the Holocaust himself in the countries of Europe".





"Why are the defenders of globalisation insisting, like in the Middle Ages, on their unilateral position and for the global village to speak as one voice?"
Hamid Reza Asefi,
Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman






But Asefi said Iran had a right to "hear all opinions" on the Holocaust "and chose the best one".

"Why are the defenders of globalisation insisting, like in the Middle Ages, on their unilateral position and for the global village to speak as one voice?

"Sadly, blind intolerance and political interests and objectives have closed the eyes of the Holocaust defenders to the realities of the world, and they even reject the very principle of a scientific conference."

International condemnation

Ahmadinejad, an ultra-conservative who came to power in a surprise victory last June, has provoked international condemnation with a number of anti-Israeli remarks.

They include labelling Israel a "tumour" that should be "wiped off the map" or moved as far away as Alaska and claiming the Holocaust was a Western invention.

The foreign ministry has yet to fix a date for the event.

AFP
By
You can find this article at:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/ADDA9377-A12B-4350-A150-B9555F58FB1C.htm



I nominate these guys for the Darwin Award. Oh well It's their country. Bet you they choose the one that won't contradict they're rhetoric

[toad]

"It was so prescient of Gen. Eisenhower to order every soldier (and civilian) who could, to go through the monstrous Nazi death camps and witness for themselves these atrocities. This was done, so that when people would deny that the Holocaust had ever happened, witnesses could say "It did happen and I saw it." - a luciane blogger

[thegman]

We all know it happened and to many people were killed, so why does Ahmadinejad even think about saying its a myth?

[Thor]

"It was so prescient of Gen. Eisenhower to order every soldier (and civilian) who could, to go through the monstrous Nazi death camps and witness for themselves these atrocities. This was done, so that when people would deny that the Holocaust had ever happened, witnesses could say "It did happen and I saw it." - a luciane blogger
What did they see?

[kineret]

What did they see?


pigs in blankets. wtf do you think they saw? they saw death.

http://library.thinkquest.org/13915/gather/gallery.htm


http://library.thinkquest.org/13915/media/dora.gif

[Thor]

No need to post that.

We all know that so many died, wasn't what I meant. But nevermind.

[Saranof]

I don't see why this is even news. They're just saying sh*t like that to piss everyone else off.

[Wodan]

send teh iranian leadership to us and let us show them how those camps worked
p-)

[Greek soldier]

David Irving approves...

http://members.cruzio.com/~quanta/Irving1.JPG

[Thor]

Unpossible, he's in an austrian prison awaiting execution.

[Greek soldier]

Unpossible, he's in an austrian prison awaiting execution.

I heard that he may be freed...

[Kitsune]

Thing is, the numbers of people who are said to have been killed in the Holocaust is wildly fluctuating. Some have claimed it would be around 10 million Jews and 17 million dead altogether. Most historians today use numbers around 11 million overall dead and 6 million Jews. And some others make a case that these numbers are still too high, actual numbers would be around 7 million dead in the overall Holocaust and around 3 million dead Jews.

True is, that some have used a deliberate inflation of numbers for their purposes. The classic example was the treatment of the question how many people had been murdered at Auschwitz. Shortly after WWII, Soviet historians put this number at 4 million people, allegedly Stalin himself had come up with this amount without any investigation of the matter. The former Kommandant of Auschwitz, Rudolf Höß, confirmed this number while in Soviet custody. (Later he changed his mind and said it would have been "only" 1.38 million).
For decades this was treated by Warsaw pact historians as an undisputable fact, a sign at the reconstructed death camp informed everyone that at Auschwitz 4 million people had been killed. However, after the end of the Warsaw pact, historians came to the conclusion that this would be way too many to be credible. Today the number is given with 1.5 million (and this is regarded by many as a maximum, which interestingly coincides with the 1.38 million given by Höß when he had second thoughts). The sign has been changed, by the way.

But even if the true number of Jews being killed should be in the 3 to 4 million range, there is no doubt that the Holocaust has happened. And it would still be an awful large number of people. (I have visited this monument for the Vietnam war in Washington, this wall with the names of the fallen on it. It keeps going on and on. Depressing. But these are only around 60.000 names, one with 3 million names would have to be way bigger.)
So there would be still no reason for Israel to regret the execution of Adolf Eichmann.

But it remains that the Holocaust has been used as a means to justify certain actions by the victors of WWII. The solution of each and every territorial question at Germany's expense for example. Plus the annexation of large territories that have undisputably been German. Or the expulsion of around 15 million ethnic Germans form Middle and Eastern Europe. The Soviets used it to name their own conquest of large parts of Europe a "liberation" and to depict themselves as good guys (blatantly denying their own crimes which can easily compare with the Nazi murders). And in the west the alliance with Stalin or the bombing war are often justified with it (not by serious historians but in the media), although both had been decided before the Holocaust had even begun.

However, this all has not much to do with the desire of Iran to have its own nuclear arsenal. Perhaps this is just their version of "exploiting the Holocaust for your own benefit."

[toad]

What is very noticable about this thread is the obvious absence of the normal Iran apologists........ they disappeared.

very telling...

[BlackRain]

What is very noticable about this thread is the obvious absence of the normal Iran apologists........ they disappeared.

very telling...

There was a problem with the fax machine this morning and they did not get the updated propaganda script from Tehran today. :)

[kraf001]

I don't know if you folks are referring to me but I have no intention to deny holocaust because 6,000,000 or 1 doesn't change the brutality of the action... holocaust has been used to justify a lot of things, while I am not a religious person I do believe in after life and I will not have the weight of taking advantage of dead on my conscious as oppose to Israelis, Europeans and Iranian government...

however what you see here is Western style democracy coming back to bite you in the ass... this is just a start and this kind of events soon will take place in Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc... Egyptians already called it a myth and so will the others... this is what you get for injecting Western democracy into nations without any planning and ground work... in Europe denying holocaust is against the law and it stands as a just exception to democracy, freedom of speech and human rights BUT good luck forcing your new democracies in middle east to adapt such exceptions.. they will use features introduce by Western democracy such as freedom of speech to voice these thoughts and basically what you call racism in Europe will be a historical/scientific debate justified by law in middle east…

[S'13]

[COLOR=black]however what you see here is Western style democracy coming back to bite you in the ass... this is just a start and this kind of events soon will take place in Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc... Egyptians already called it a myth and so will the others... this is what you get for injecting Western democracy into nations without any planning and ground work...

Karf... Iran isn't a Western democracy and so are the rest of the Arab, Muslim countries you presented (it is too soon to determine what Iraq and Afghanistan will be).

This has nothing to do with democracy. Actually, if the people of Iran had more of a say as to what their leaders say or do (as there is in a western democracy)... I don't we would have had this thread.

[kraf001]

Karf... Iran isn't a Western democracy and so are the rest of the Arab, Muslim countries you presented (it is too soon to determine what Iraq and Afghanistan will be).

exactly my point... they are not democracies (at least not a Western version) that is why they abuse the notion and name themselves democracies when it suits them... for example in Iran's election for city council body in each city less than 10% of the population participated... but the government used the notions defined by democracy and went ahead with the results...


This has nothing to do with democracy. Actually, if the people of Iran had more of a say as to what their leaders say or do (as there is in a western democracy)... I don't we would have had this thread.
yes it has... this whole situation is protected under the notion of freedom of speech... they can have these kind of seminars anywhere in middle east and no matter how influential West is in those countries you can't do anything about it because that would mean you are against the very thing that you tried to establish in the country which is democracy and its child freedom of speech... it seems complicated at the start but if you think about it, it will get clear..

think of it this way, you try your best to get Middle Easterns practice democracy and the first thing they do after learning about freedom of speech is to deny holocaust!! Just like what Egyptians did!

[Esszett]

kraf001: Whoa, kudos mate!
Haven't thought anyone from Iran /Persia would last here any longer than a few minutes! Keep it up!
I really enjoy reading your posts. It makes me a bit more optimistic regarding the whole "Iran is the new target"-issue.
Hopefully there are (a lot) more Iranians /Persians like you.

(Even though I am against any holocaust denial since I've seen enough evidence to know that it is actually true!)

[Moledet]

Kraf, in all western societies there is a diffrence between the freedom of speech and racism.
You will never understand why we are so pissed off about this because you lost no one in that holocaust while we lost half of our nation.

You should know that it might get back right at you, if people won't believe that the holocaust happend than someone might do it to you. It won't always be the Jews suffering, they just happend to be the weak and the best people to put all the blame on.
Same thing can be done to Persians because they are economicaly successful in other countries. All you need is a crisis and the majority will want the Persians that 'steal' their jobs and money out.

[kraf001]

Kraf, in all western societies there is a diffrence between the freedom of speech and racism.
You will never understand why we are so pissed off about this because you lost no one in that holocaust while we lost half of our nation.

You should know that it might get back right at you, if people won't believe that the holocaust happend than someone might do it to you. It won't always be the Jews suffering, they just happend to be the weak and the best people to put all the blame on.
Same thing can be done to Persians because they are economicaly successful in other countries. All you need is a crisis and the majority will want the Persians that 'steal' their jobs and money out.
oh trust me.. I have read enough denials about Iran... we have denial to Iran-Iraq war casualty number... denial towards Iraq using WMDs (this hurts me the most because a person that I value a lot in my life suffers from major lung problem when his all fleet was attacked by Iraqi chemical weapons)... denial towards MEK terrorizing my country... denial towards Mossadegh's status and so on...

BUT ask yourself, do you think that those ppl died to justify future crimes? I think not!

[Moledet]

oh trust me.. I have read enough denials about Iran... we have denial to Iran-Iraq war casualty number... denial towards Iraq using WMDs (this hurts me the most because a person that I value a lot in my life suffers from major lung problem when his all fleet was attacked by Iraqi chemical weapons)... denial towards MEK terrorizing my country... denial towards Mossadegh's status and so on...

BUT ask yourself, do you think that those ppl died to justify future crimes? I think not!
It is totaly different, you are talking about a war. Soldiers fighting soldiers because they are enemies, it's not civilians that are being systematicaly murdered because they are of some race.

I didn't say that it will justify future crimes, but if people won't remeber how terrible the holocaust was it will happen again.

BTW, it won't happen to us again because for a change we are on the strong side.

[kraf001]

It is totaly different, you are talking about a war. Soldiers fighting soldiers because they are enemies, it's not civilians that are being systematicaly murdered because they are of some race.

they were examples... and since when terrorist MEK has something to do with war?... they killed innocent Iranians and are still killing but they are under full protection of Europeans and Americans... you could see their anti-Iran protest last week in front of white house... that event to me is like Al - Qaeda members being given a chance to carry out a demonstration against USA in Tehran...


I didn't say that it will justify future crimes, but if people won't remeber how terrible the holocaust was it will happen again.

I have nothing against holocaust, and I will never agree with ppl who deny it.. but holocaust is being misused nowadays to justify some wrong actions...


BTW, it won't happen to us again because for a change we are on the strong side.
I never claimed otherwise!

[Moledet]

they were examples... and since when terrorist MEK has something to do with war?... they killed innocent Iranians and are still killing but they are under full protection of Europeans and Americans... you could see their anti-Iran protest last week in front of white house... that event to me is like Al - Qaeda members being given a chance to carry out a demonstration against USA in Tehran...

I have never heard about MEK, so I don't wish to speak about them.
But, believe it or not, even in Israel we allow demonstrations (by Israeli arabs) that support the Hammas.



I have nothing against holocaust, and I will never agree with ppl who deny it.. but holocaust is being misused nowadays to justify some wrong actions...


Like what?

[kraf001]

I have never heard about MEK, so I don't wish to speak about them.
But, believe it or not, even in Israel we allow demonstrations (by Israeli arabs) that support the Hammas.

well it is not my fault that you don't know MEK, I don't blame you because killing civilian Iranians doesn't really get much media attention... just look at the latest bombings in Ahvaz in all the news pieces had the emphasis on "Ahmadinejad canceling the trip 2 days before the attacks" and "Iran's nuclear ambitions" it was almost as those who lost their lives in the attacks weren't important enough to get any media attention!


Like what?
like what? like every time that I hear "that is nothing compared to what Nazis did to us!!".... the crimes European did against Jews during WWII justifies their biased decisions about Israel-Palestine issue...

[Moledet]

like what? like every time that I hear "that is nothing compared to what Nazis did to us!!".... the crimes European did against Jews during WWII justifies their biased decisions about Israel-Palestine issue...
We never say such a thing, we are pissed off at those who compare what we do now to what the Nazis were doing. Because nothing we do can be compared to their cruelty.
The Europeans are very pro-palestinian and even anti-israeli (we say it's in their genes but don't tell them that). You probably don't read here enough to see that.

[kraf001]

We never say such a thing, we are pissed off at those who compare what we do now to what the Nazis were doing. Because nothing we do can be compared to their cruelty.
there shouldn't be any comparison... the Nazis shouldn't set the bar for anyone... no offense but you don't sound knowledgeable about the issue...


The Europeans are very pro-palestinian and even anti-israeli (we say it's in their genes but don't tell them that). You probably don't read here enough to see that.
Europeans on this board have nothing to do with the European decisions about state of Israel... this is getting no where!! only thing left for me is to agree to disagree with you!