The Future is coming!!(will update)

[Resevoir Hogs]

Post your various XM weapons here. So any experimental smallarms, grenade launchers and machine guns as well as soldier systems. Any other new kit too.

XM312



XM307 25mm Advanced
Crew Served Machine Gun



XM25

XM26


XM302

Air Warrior




Land Warrior






Cupola Protective Ensemble



New First Aid kit


Hydration System

Assault Pack



Ruck






Door ram


Micro rappel

PSV 14



Assault Ladder


Enhanced Night Vission




Lightweight Laser
Designator Rangefinder


Light Thermal Weapon Sight


ightweight Video
Reconnaissance System (LVRS)




MK VII Target Locator


Medium Thermal Weapon Sight[/img]

[b]Night Vision - AN/PVS-7D Night Vision Device

AN/PEQ-2A Target Pointer/Illuminator/Aiming
Light (TPIAL)

AN/PVS-10 Sniper Night Sight (SNS)




AN/PAS-13 Thermal
Weapon Sight (TWS)

Vector IV-Binocular Laser
Range Finder (VIPER)




Mounted Common Remotely
Operated Weapon Station (CROWS)




M16

XM8


Future Vehicle Concepts





GVP Colonel











New Canadian Forces Unifroms and future ideas

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/zefra/main.asp?lng=e



New Ruck






Tac Vest

Combat gloves

Mortar gloves

Ballistic Vest


New vehicles







Britain FIST





Robotic Systems

[goldman]

Holy Crap Im jealous! I should be the one posting these pics..

[Dakota435]

Now if they only had camos that didn't stick out in the bush like deer hunting vests...

[Bandit]

Wow! Fantastic pics.

The cuopla armor makes that soldier look like a ninja turtle.

[BoyElroy]

Terrific pics! Thanks for putting them up.

[mobius06]

awesome pics , helps to sort out what's coming , thanx , but I just don't get used to ACU

[DBOYxxGORDON]

the future is coming....but not with ACU i hope...their plans are to launch Crye Associates Multicam as well with their Cross Com. Also, Crye is developing a new AR to replace the M16. They are developing a Caseless AR. But this just in developement..it is not for sure that the Army will use it...but MULTICAM and Crye's stuff is all over the ARMY's FCU website.

[Ratamacue]

Future Force Warrior 2010 (pics ordered from oldest to newest)


Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/abk.jpg)



Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/abm.jpg)


Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/abn.jpg)


Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/abo.jpg)


Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/abp.jpg)


Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/abq.jpg)


Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/abr.jpg)


Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/abs.jpg)


Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/abt.jpg)


Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/abu.jpg)


Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/abv.jpg)



Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/acw.jpg)


Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/acy.jpg)



Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/adi.jpg)

Future Warrior 2020



Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/adj.jpg)




Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/acq.jpg)



Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/adg.jpg)


Hi-Res (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/acx.jpg)

[Ratamacue]

the future is coming....but not with ACU i hope...their plans are to launch Crye Associates Multicam as well with their Cross Com. Also, Crye is developing a new AR to replace the M16. They are developing a Caseless AR. But this just in developement..it is not for sure that the Army will use it...but MULTICAM and Crye's stuff is all over the ARMY's FCU website.The only reason that Multicam is seen so much is because Crye Associates designed alot of the concept pieces to the Future and Force Warrior designs. And don't look too much into all that crap from Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter.

[Nugget]

so how much are all these toys gonna cost the US tax payer?

[Apathy]

so how much are all these toys gonna cost the US tax payer?

Suddenly taxes, hundreds of them!

[Dronetek]

I really hope they actually move in that direction. Imagine how demoralizing it would be to see those guys coming at you. It would be like the tank showing up in WWI.

[Greek soldier]

Giat FAMAS FELIN



Armee de Terre FELIN



Giat PAPOP

[Lützower]

...and still they will be killed in ambushes by camel-drivers wearing sandals and sheets witha assault rifle dating back to the end of WW2.....

Interesting pics, anyway, thanks a lot.

[JTAR7242]

Yeah, that's cool and all, but how do you get out of the vehicle in an emergency with the Stay Puft Marshmallow man costume on?

[Deep6]

...and still they will be killed in ambushes by camel-drivers wearing sandals and sheets witha assault rifle dating back to the end of WW2.....

Interesting pics, anyway, thanks a lot.

That is the sad truth! However, it is a numbers game in the end...if one tech-no soldier kills 20 of his enemy before the sandal clad camel driver gets him with an IED, it is still scored a win (on paper)! I love new technology, but hate to see huge amounts of tax payer dollars spent on over budget mega-contracts that produce a bunch of plastic parts that never seem to make it to the mainstream. Save some of that money for items needed to save lives now....vehicles, vehicle up armor, IED & Mine detection, etc etc etc

[Johnny_H]

LMAO im sorry but some of those ACU pics remind me of
"The Waffen SS meets TRON!"

and some of the more "out there" concepts look like 80's GI joe action figures, I love the stuff but some of it just dosnt seem realistic or practical, the ACU stuff is most likely the only ones we will see the others just look too far out.

[el_kab0ng]

It's interesting that they keep showing the ACU troopers with kneepads. The ACU itself has pockets at the knees for internal pads, eliminating the need to have anything external (and uncomfortable!)

[akd]

so how much are all these toys gonna cost the US tax payer?

How much you wanna bet this ladder costs at least $10,000. :)

[Resevoir Hogs]

I just updated the pictures on the first page, check em out.

[FOLIO]

What the hell is this gun ?
What is his weight ?

It's as big as the carrier , i'm not sure that the soldier will be able to aim something after a 10 miles run !

[Greek soldier]

It is called PAPOP (PolyArmePOlyProjectile). It is a prototype from Giat Industrie... Don't know if it will be produced.

http://www.armada.ch/99-6/001.htm

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/gaston2.html

[Createdeemcee]

I know one of the grunts in the future warrior pics.

[Resevoir Hogs]

I know one of the grunts in the future warrior pics.

Must be a fun posting for a little while.

[Thor]

[Resevoir Hogs]

Hey I like the Germans and all that, but its a forum rule that you have to post in English. I do not speak German and cannot understand you. No private chats in my thread ok.

[Lützower]

Hey I like the Germans and all that, but its a forum rule that you have to post in English. I do not speak German and cannot understand you. No private chats in my thread ok.

OK, sorry for that!
We were just talking about the corner of Germany we`re both from.
Nothing offensive or so.
Now everything in English!

[Resevoir Hogs]

OK, sorry for that!
We were just talking about the corner of Germany we`re both from.
Nothing offensive or so.
Now everything in English!

I'm not offended I am just making sure you know that that is against forum rules and can be trouble.

[DeltaWhisky58]

The language of MP.Net is English - if you wish to chat around the corner or wherever in another language, use the phone, e-mail, PM, a messenger package or similar!

[Greek soldier]

The language of MP.Net is English - if you wish to chat around the corner or wherever in another language, use the phone, e-mail, PM, a messenger package or similar!

Forgot the SMS...

[Gauntlet]

The only enviorment this new camo is good for.

I don't know what those people in the Pentagon were thinking. That camo does not work anywhere else other than a concrete city. It all comes down to the dollar signs. That's what they really look for.

We can take a few tips from Canada. Their camo is brilliant.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Yea I love our uniforms.

[ruspecnaz]

Multi camo is cool - but designed in Canada, guns looks too much "Star Wars" nothing cool ((

[Resevoir Hogs]

Multi camo is cool - but designed in Canada, guns looks too much "Star Wars" nothing cool ((

Multi camo was designed in Canada?! I don't think so.

[Ratamacue]

We can take a few tips from Canada. Their camo is brilliant.Where do you think MARPAT came from? Personally, I want to see what comes of this "Generation II MARPAT" mentioned on the Hyperstealth website, and hope that the Army and Marines get their sh!t together and realize that having separate camo patterns is ridiculous.

[ruspecnaz]

It's is called Digital style. Americans just change colors.
First version of Digital Uniform

[Resevoir Hogs]

It's is called Digital style. Americans just change colors.
First version of Digital Uniform

Here we are now on our third generation of this uniform. It's a great improvement over the old OD green we had before.

Here's what I'm wearing now. Notice the button covers. It really makes a big difference in the appearance and also when you are putting up camo covers. The buttons used to get caught on those.

[Pook2]

Digital camoflauge was designed in the U.S. by Colonel Tim O'Neill while he was teaching at West Point. It was first used by American armored units in Germany in the 1970's. It was put aside by U.S. commanders because it made US troops too recognizable apart from other NATO forces. Canada looked at the concept in the 1990's and adopted the CADPAT.

[ruspecnaz]

It's really depend from where you gonna use. I im sure for 100% that in forest old CADPAT will be a better choise that Multi camo.

[Pook2]

http://www.uniteddynamics.com/dualtex/

History of Digital Camo.

Funny thing is. Colonel O'Neill was in the same reenactment unit as me as a PFC.

[ruspecnaz]

Thx for info

[ronin2172]

The only enviorment this new camo is good for.

I don't know what those people in the Pentagon were thinking. That camo does not work anywhere else other than a concrete city. It all comes down to the dollar signs. That's what they really look for.

We can take a few tips from Canada. Their camo is brilliant.
i dunno, i finally saw it in person (ACU), and it was effective, i was surprised

[ed316]

The only enviorment this new camo is good for.

I don't know what those people in the Pentagon were thinking. That camo does not work anywhere else other than a concrete city. It all comes down to the dollar signs. That's what they really look for.

We can take a few tips from Canada. Their camo is brilliant.


The wars of the future will be fought in Urban and built-up areas. The days of snooping and pooping in the bush will not be the norm anymore

[Seiran]

Is it possible to get more photo's of the XM320??

And I agree with everyone that says it's stupid to spend all this money on stuff that probably won't even make it past the 1st prototype. If you want a new weapon, that's cool, just make sure you're going to use the damn thing.

If the US wants a next-gen assault rifle, they should look into bullpup's like the Tavor, the Aug A3, or create their own. This is just my opinion of course...

[ed316]

Is it possible to get more photo's of the XM320??

And I agree with everyone that say sit's stupid to spend all this money on stuff that probably won't even make it past the 1st prototype. If you want a new weapon, that's cool, just make sure you're going to use the damn thing.

If the US wants a next-gen assault rifle, they should look into bullpup's like the Tavor, the Aug A3, or create their own. This is just my opinion of course...


Without money there would not be research. You have projects to test thi sout and that out and try to find which one will be best suited to your needs. You think they just all of a sudden came up with stealth bombers? It came from other projects and technology that were canceled

[BloodyTalon]

DDX


F22A Raptor (out now!)


F35 Joint Strike Fighter


HK416/417 (maybe)

[EsoognomEhT]

FIST



Under FIST, the infantryman's SA80 assault rifle will be fitted with an enhanced sighting system on the weapon or linked to the soldier's helmet mounted sight.

The five main areas of FIST capability are C4I (command, control, communications, computers and intelligence), lethality (weapons and sights), mobility (navigation, size and weight of equipment), survivability (clothing, stealth, body armour) and sustainability (logistics).The FIST programme will develop new clothing for the soldier, including body armour and helmet and helmet-mounted display with interface to other elements of the battlefield network

[Resevoir Hogs]

Is it possible to get more photo's of the XM320??

And I agree with everyone that says it's stupid to spend all this money on stuff that probably won't even make it past the 1st prototype. If you want a new weapon, that's cool, just make sure you're going to use the damn thing.

If the US wants a next-gen assault rifle, they should look into bullpup's like the Tavor, the Aug A3, or create their own. This is just my opinion of course...





And the Xm25

[Daniel]

so how much are all these toys gonna cost the US tax payer?

who gives a **** if they save a few soldiers lives?

[parabellum]

So what is the military's response to help protect troops and control hostile crowds? A glorified laser-pointer. Air Force Research Laboratory has developed a laser technology weapon -- PHaSR -- capable of temporarily impairing aggressors by removing their ability to see.

[BloodyTalon]

So what is the military's response to help protect troops and control hostile crowds? A glorified laser-pointer. Air Force Research Laboratory has developed a laser technology weapon -- PHaSR -- capable of temporarily impairing aggressors by removing their ability to see.


Is that the one that gives you the runs?

[ed316]

so how much are all these toys gonna cost the US tax payer?




Dollar figure $400 billion (FY2005 est.)

Percent of GDP 3.7% (FY2005 est.)

[Greek soldier]

Visby Corvette


Umoe Mandal Skjold FPB



Dassault-Saab-RUAG-HAI-Alenia-EADS CASA UCAV nEUROn

[szr]

Any other new kit too.


XM50/51
Joint Service General Purpose Mask
(JSGPM)


Description:
The JSGPM will be a lightweight, protective mask system (consisting of mask, carrier and accessories) incorporating state of the art technology to protect U.S. forces from anticipated threats. The mask components will be optimized to minimize impact on the wearer's performance and to maximize its ability to interface with future Service equipment and protective clothing.

Mission: Provide face, eye, and respiratory protection from battlefield concentrations of Chemical and Biological (CB) agents, toxins, toxic industrial materials, and radioactive particulate matter.
User: All Services - Replaces the M40/42 and MCU-2/P Series Masks, and the M45 in the Land Warrior Program
Target Capabilities:

Provide 24 hours of above the neck protection from CB agents, radioactive particles, and toxic industrial materials.

Overall field of view ( 80%.

Inhalation resistance ( 30 mm water.

Compatible with current and co-developmental CB garments. Target Improvements over the M40/42, MCU-2/P, and M45:


Reduced weight and bulk.

Lower breathing resistance.

Improved equipment compatibility.

Improved and increased periods of protectionEarlier prototype:




Current form:


(images that are wartermarked "specwargear.com" are from www.specwargear.com (http://www.specwargear.com) and are being rehosted on www.imageshack.us (http://www.imageshack.us) for this post)


Think I heard that they were going to start fielding this, this year. No idea if it's true...

[ToniLP]

interesting post

[crinkler]

How much you wanna bet this ladder costs at least $10,000. :)


They should cost under a $1000 but Im sure the military could get them down to around $400-600

[3rdMillhouse]

What the hell is this gun ?
What is his weight ?

It's as big as the carrier , i'm not sure that the soldier will be able to aim something after a 10 miles run !


This gun is developed for crushing porpouses, you crush your enemy with that gun.

[iGrooCk]

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/adj.sized.jpg

WoW that looks sweet, that armor is nano technology which is like having kevlar all over your body + it looks insainly sweet. great pix i seen some of this on military channel, it looks promissing

[3rdMillhouse]

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album112/adj.sized.jpg

WoW that looks sweet, that armor is nano technology which is like having kevlar all over your body + it looks insainly sweet. great pix i seen some of this on military channel, it looks promissing


Right now, it´s nothing more than just a concept, first real units should start showing by 2020 or even further.

[Irish]

Cylons eat your heart out!!

[Abram]

Well, those weapons are futurious!
It is only important that they are reliable and accurate!

[the breacher]

great post....great

[evanfitz]

Any concept photos of the new AR?

[Alan]

Beautiful toys, very well made, probably very expensive.

But toys nevertheless.

Technology never won wars.

[JoaMei]

Beautiful toys, very well made, probably very expensive.

But toys nevertheless.

Technology never won wars.

It did many times, Technology is the Key to warfare. :roll:

[Alan]

It did many times, Technology is the Key to warfare. :roll:

What time exactly.

Technology is the key to warfare?

Intelligence[both kinds; real and military], interrogation and strategy is the key to warfare.

An m1A2 is useless if an IED is not discovered.

Why do you think Iraq is the mess it is. Zero military intelligence.

[variable]

Great thread, thanks everyone.

Some futuristic looking KSK-pics:




I know they have been posted before...all credits to seventy6er(deine Bilder Uli?) I guess :)

ben

[scrybe]

What time exactly.

Technology is the key to warfare?

Intelligence[both kinds; real and military], interrogation and strategy is the key to warfare.

An m1A2 is useless if an IED is not discovered.

Why do you think Iraq is the mess it is. Zero military intelligence.

Do you really believe that or are you just trying to instigate an arguement?

[szr]

Do you really believe that or are you just trying to instigate an arguement?

I think they'll build it just fine. I have faith in my countrymen. Russia is a far cry from the nineties. Another 7 years, and it will be back tin all its glory.We report, you decide.

[ronin2172]

What time exactly.

Technology is the key to warfare?

Intelligence[both kinds; real and military], interrogation and strategy is the key to warfare.

An m1A2 is useless if an IED is not discovered.

Why do you think Iraq is the mess it is. Zero military intelligence.
Actually he is right technology might just be the key element, at least in the traditional sense of warfare; and most importantly the ones who make the best use of a technical advantage tend to prevail. The situation in Iraq now is not really war in the traditional sense. It is more compareable to the situation in Norterh Ireland in the 70's and 80's only on a much larger scale.

If you look throughout history, technology has time and time again tipped the favor. The Spartans at Thermopolaye even thought they didn't win they would have been wiped out in a day or less if it wasn't for their superior equipment, the Romans in their wars of conquest, the English at Agincourt. The 20th century is the best example...machine guns, aircraft (both planes and helicopters), tanks, the radio, aircraft carriers, guided missles, satelites, computers (mainly the microprocessor), radar, night vision (particularly passive), jet engines, have revolutionized warfare and have forced massive changes in tactics and strategy.

Of course this technology must be allied to good training, and leadership. Also tech does not necessarily apply to only weapons, it can also apply to communications, supply, Intel, engineering, right down to personal gear.

You mentioned IEDs...even these have benefitted from technology. Who needs a tripwire when you can use a cell phone to set one off

Interrogation is hardly a key to warfare...no battle has been won by interrogation, as the info you get is probably crap anyway.

Technology has clearly affected strategy. Would Eisenhowers strategy for the Liberation of Europe been possible if not for airplanes, or higgins boats or something as mundane as the parachute?

Would the germans have been able to conquer france with the speed they did if not for the tank and airplanes?

Would the US strategy in the pacific have succeeded without the aircraft carrier?

The answer is no.

[J-10]

The FNSS Savunma Sistemleri company, based in Turkey, has developed the Pars or Leopard family of armoured fighting vehicles in a co-operative program with GPV.

[eatmars]

nice pics tanks for that

[ed316]

Love the KSK pics

[nwtarr]

What is this gun?

[Ghostryder]

What is this gun?

The Army's latest long range rifle concept,

also known as MLWTDSC for "Most Laughable Waste of Taxpayer Dollars Since Comanche"

This abbreviation also applies for the rest of the "Future Warrior" program.

[Anthony91]

The Army's latest long range rifle concept,

also known as MLWTDSC for "Most Laughable Waste of Taxpayer Dollars Since Comanche"

This abbreviation also applies for the rest of the "Future Warrior" program.

Dumbass. The Future Warrior program is not a waste of money. It is a evolution in warfare.

Also the Commanche was not crap. Why? Because it was stealthy.

[3rdMillhouse]

The Army's latest long range rifle concept,

also known as MLWTDSC for "Most Laughable Waste of Taxpayer Dollars Since Comanche"

This abbreviation also applies for the rest of the "Future Warrior" program.


OUCH .

[Ghostryder]

Dumbass. The Future Warrior program is not a waste of money. It is a evolution in warfare.

Listen bud, if you want to see an evolution in warfare check out the thread entitled "Today's Pix". Evolution, in every concievable context, occurs in the field, not in the labratory. If you'd like to witness the marraige of overpaid industrial designers with rediculous military spending, then by all means, enjoy the Future Warrior Program. It's not my understanding that sticking a TV into a soldier's helmet and wrapping him in glorified graph paper makes a soldier a "Superior Combat Entity".

As for the Comanche, the substance doesn't much matter when one realizes that nearly Seven Billion, yes you read that correctly, $6,900,000,000,000 was spent on it before it was unceremoniously canceled.

[Darkside161]

Looks like the Army has been playing a lot of HALO.

[EsoognomEhT]

It's not my understanding that sticking a TV into a soldier's helmet and wrapping him in glorified graph paper makes a soldier a "Superior Combat Entity".

hehehe and I wouldn't bother about A-Dawg, hes only like 10

[Ghostryder]

Hehe, you know what they say:
arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics; even if you win, you're still retarted.

[Blumenteufel]

I mostly agree with Ghostryder. In 2004 i was in Hammelburg ( German Infantry School ) at the "Day of the Infantry" which was basically a shooting competition and come together.
The competition was ok but the weapons expo they had also running kind of disgusted me. A pretty fat dude from a company i don´t remember showed us
a laser rangefinder that can be attached to the AG36 grenade launcher. I simply
can´t cope with the idea of weapons shown to me by persons with ties which
only leads me to think "Ok, if a different country buys that stuff, it could also be used against me and my comrades, it wouldn´t matter to him."

I don´t have a problem with new tech, just with the inventions that smell after moneymaking (or merely ideas companies, and not the military come up with) , being shown to me by some fat guys who will never sport their own inventions in the field. It´s not bad to have competition on the market but the pictures
on the first page, although being a very interesting outlook, seem to me as if some people have gone loose at the drawing board. The 2010 concepts look
solid to me but who can be seriously interested in planning for 2020? Thats too far reaching and who wants to master all those gadgets in the field.

Cheers

Edit: The HK guys however were pretty cool.

[dunkin]

Thanks for the pic and, shall we say interesting converstation.

[eindhoven]

I really hope they actually move in that direction. Imagine how demoralizing it would be to see those guys coming at you. It would be like the tank showing up in WWI.

Demoralizing...Hah! More like, Thank the gods.

For every system there is a method of attack and defense. The Tiger was a nice tank, far beyond our Shermans and the T-34 but it was still defeated. The simplest methods of warfare will win no matter how many artificially muscled, visor displayed, XM weapon touting soldiers are produced.

You want a winning Army? Train your entire military in Spec Ops and counter-insurgency. You want a losing Army teach them to rely on Technology.

Other than that this is just creating jobs and securing funding. Thanks for sharing the pictures though.

[ed316]

This is R&D for the military. Some techs will make it some won't. How are you gonna have advance in technology if you don't have research and developemnet?

[Lt.Havoc]

Nice thread. Well, however, I´m still not very fond with the ACU. Dont know who came up with that idea, but one camo for all enviorments and terrian, I dont know. I doubt that all wars of the futures will be fought in cities, wehn I look in some far east countires or Africa, its all dense jungel and woods and desert then cities. Ah, anyway, we´ll see. I think that a Revisible uniform like they where tested in the Marine Corps would be abetter solution, they could add all the ACU features and use 2 diffrent digital camo pattern in one uniform and they could give every soldier one uniform and he could turn it to match the terrian he is one. One side for Desert/Urban areas and the other for Jungel/woodland areas.

Just my 2 cents.

[eindhoven]

It did many times, Technology is the Key to warfare. :roll:

The Germans seemed to have had plenty of it but they still lost a war relying on it to save them.

[eindhoven]

Nice thread. Well, however, I´m still not very fond with the ACU. Dont know who came up with that idea, but one camo for all enviorments and terrian, I dont know. I doubt that all wars of the futures will be fought in cities, wehn I look in some far east countires or Africa, its all dense jungel and woods and desert then cities. Ah, anyway, we´ll see. I think that a Revisible uniform like they where tested in the Marine Corps would be abetter solution, they could add all the ACU features and use 2 diffrent digital camo pattern in one uniform and they could give every soldier one uniform and he could turn it to match the terrian he is one. One side for Desert/Urban areas and the other for Jungel/woodland areas.

Just my 2 cents.

The Waffen-SS wore reversible uniforms, Spring-Autumn side, Mouse gray/white parkas. Simple concept and I agree with you.

[eindhoven]

This is R&D for the military. Some techs will make it some won't. How are you gonna have advance in technology if you don't have research and developemnet?

Simple, you stop political funding so that weapons systems like Comanche, which worked but had too high a sticker price, dont ever turn into 7 billion dollar sink holes for R&D. When we take our helmets off after leaving a patrol base to listen it is vital we can get the thing off without spending five minutes making sure we havent screwed up our in helmet display because we sneezed inside of it.

[Lt.Havoc]

Yup, seems that we where ahead in time in Uniforms there. I still dont know why this revisible BDU that the Marines tested, where not adopted. They could use that feature in thier new uniform easy, one side digital woodland and the other digital desert. They did it with ither helemt cover, but left out the unifrom. Anyway, the Marines still did it right with thier unifrom. They work very well and expect of the diffrent position of the pockets on the shirt, its all like the BDU. Its intresting to note, that the Vietnam Era Jungel Uniforms had the same pocket layout on the uniform shirt as seen now in the MARPAT Uniform and the ACU. Even some of the trouser pockets seem to be taken from the vietnam Uniforms.

[kilroy1911]

The Germans seemed to have had plenty of it but they still lost a war relying on it to save them.

thats true, but remember, that the germans were fighting virtually against the whole world and their forces were stretched too thin from Atlantic coast to Moscow and from Norway to north Africa... everywhere were guerillas and germany wasnt very rich in various resources like oil etc...

[keimo lantio]

This was taken in Ft. Braggs couple weeks ago. Recon team on their daily stroll among the public.

[Lt.Havoc]

Somone just had to made that danm Stromtrooper reference, huh? :cantbeli:

[XxDualityxX]

yes the xm8 will prove uneffective against my lightsaber though.

[eindhoven]

thats true, but remember, that the germans were fighting virtually against the whole world and their forces were stretched too thin from Atlantic coast to Moscow and from Norway to north Africa... everywhere were guerillas and germany wasnt very rich in various resources like oil etc...

Im not talking resources or geopolitics in terms of allying. My point is that despite guided missiles, V1-V2, Me262, Me263, Tiger II, MP44, etc they lost. command relied heavily on weapons systems at the sacrifice of fielding just plain good troops.

Whether they had oil in the pans of their Tiger tanks or not, the technology itself was beaten. Crude worked. Put a German helmet and an American helmet side by side. Same with Armor. What is amazing is the simplest know how beat the best engineering.

[eindhoven]

Its intresting to note, that the Vietnam Era Jungel Uniforms had the same pocket layout on the uniform shirt as seen now in the MARPAT Uniform and the ACU. Even some of the trouser pockets seem to be taken from the vietnam Uniforms.

What works works. It's easier to go into your pocket at an angle rather than straight down. I have quite a few Vietnam uniforms in my collection which spans from WW1 to current. They should put these researchers through a time machine and let them put on gear throughout conflict. It quickly becomes apparent what works, like H harness combat suspenders versus Y harness design.

I dont know why they werent approved either other than you get more money as a manufacturer seperating the two. I cant buy any other reason.

[Lt.Havoc]

Well, you can not compare the new modern tech from today with things happend 60 years ago. Then, if the germans had enough of thie best gear baack then, it would have looked diffrent. You have to remeber, that germany fought against several big eneimes at the same time. The Soviets always had simple stuff, but how good was it really? Soviet MPs and rifels jammed after every fith shot fired, while german MPs jammed first after every thenths or so fired shot. The german MP was better, but the soviets relied on human wave tactics, knowing that it would not matter if thier stuff works or not.

The USA at the time, did had really good weapons, not as great as germany at this time, but the Garand M1, the M1 Carbine, the Thompson MP, the Sherman Tank all of it was good solid tech. Still, german weapons where better, but, the USA outnumberd germany in every aspect at the time thier came to the battelfield.

Today, modern armies know about the human factor. The soldiers is a highly trained person, wich costs lot of cash, thus, the military ensures that he survies, so he can fight on. Even if the enemieshe fights use tech thats over 30 years old, dosent mean that this strategy is good on the long term. You know, even Terrortists will later run out of the most important resource in the world: the human individual. A high-tech soldier, with its grea will be able to spot suiced bombers and enemies from a great distance, due to scopes, and sights, thermal and spectral sights make him able too see through buldings and cover, so he can see whats under it. He can fight in the night, due to night vision. His body armor is able to defead AK rounds, his rifle is able to shoot accurate at a great distance, and he is brought in the fight with helis, armored APCs and more.

This soldier, is also better trained to use ll the stuff he got there. The thread of IDEs will be counterd with flying robots that can decet any kind of explosives, weapons and other stuff due to its thermal and spectral sights, sensors and more and he is as small as a toy heli. The list goes on. All this high-tech stuff will help the common soldier to do its job better, to be more effective nad to counter every threat possible. Quality can win over quanity as many armies showed us.

[Lt.Havoc]

What works works. It's easier to go into your pocket at an angle rather than straight down. I have quite a few Vietnam uniforms in my collection which spans from WW1 to current. They should put these researchers through a time machine and let them put on gear throughout conflict. It quickly becomes apparent what works, like H harness combat suspenders versus Y harness design.

I dont know why they werent approved either other than you get more money as a manufacturer seperating the two. I cant buy any other reason.
Yeah, but its intresting to see, that they reuse stuff that was good back then, scrapped, only to appear again. Thats what I call recycling.

Yeah, its all about cash. You know somone, who knows somone who works in the Pentagon and you married the generals daugher or something and you get the contract, even if tis sh**.

At least I think it works that way sometimes.

[ed316]

Simple, you stop political funding so that weapons systems like Comanche, which worked but had too high a sticker price, dont ever turn into 7 billion dollar sink holes for R&D. When we take our helmets off after leaving a patrol base to listen it is vital we can get the thing off without spending five minutes making sure we havent screwed up our in helmet display because we sneezed inside of it.

Show me where technology grows leaps and bounds without R&D. Without R&D you don't have an industry or any tech. for that matter.

[eindhoven]

Show me where technology grows leaps and bounds without R&D. Without R&D you don't have an industry or any tech. for that matter.


Easy, leave the gates of the base where they manage to do it cheaper and better.

Never said do away with R&D there Ranger. All I said was quite funding crap that's impractical.

[ed316]

Easy, leave the gates of the base where they manage to do it cheaper and better.

Never said do away with R&D there Ranger. All I said was quite funding crap that's impractical.

Yes some projects are crap. There is no way to know a project is impractical unless you experiment with them.

[eindhoven]

Es tut mir leid Herr Havoc aber so was is ja so was. America, Canada, New Zealand, Australians, British were also fighting a war in Europe, the pacific, and the Mediterranean and somehow managed to defeat a technologically advanced enemy despite being stretched all over the world.

I know my history. I understand the excuses put forth on why Germany lost: command, over extension of fronts, limited production numbers of superior weapons technology, lack of human and material resources. They are commonly quoted. Never has it been stated that the material failed in training and application.

As you pointed out, a 30 cal 5 round M1 Garand beat the 30 round 8mm Kurz MP44 during the Battle of the Bulge. The answer wasn’t magazine capacity and a new weapon system. The answer was better soldiers. More is not better or in the defiant words of a small Arab boy in Dahab to me, 'You Americans always think big when it is the small that often wins. A rock can kill just as good as a rifle and quieter."

Some of the systems shown in this thread are practical and will work while others including the largest glut in R&D today are not practical in any application other than Law Enforcement. They will not work in a military role.

[eindhoven]

Yes some projects are crap. There is no way to know a project is impractical unless you experiment with them.

Yeah, there is a way. It is called common sense. Here is a perfect example of a piece of crap.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4048&d=1142280341

Common sense says there will be feed issues on an MG, jamming, or gas operator failures. Can this heap perform corrective action on any of these? No. Hey, I have an idea! Get a soldier to field the weapon and stop marrying Law Enforcement applications with military ones for the sake of employment and economy.

Was the Crusader impractical? Everyone who ever reviewed it glowed. Yet, Land Warrior has been getting the leg job for years and Land Warrior is laughable.

[kineret]

very cool new weap systems coming from IDF, posted on MP earlier

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/LIC-2004-ISRAEL?page=2

[eindhoven]

"On July 26, 2002, Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics Edward C. "Pete" Aldridge, Jr., signed a memorandum directing the U.S. Army to take prudent and deliberate actions to bring about an orderly termination of the Crusader program. In the memo, the Army was directed to ensure that current technology development continues either as part of an indirect fire technology demonstration or as part of other transformational programs. On the same day, Secretary Aldridge provided Congress with the Army's Indirect Fires Report and a reprogramming request to transfer $32 million from Crusader to new variants of the Future Combat Systems (FCS). Congress has approved the reprogramming request.

By early 2002 the Army had spent $2 billion on the Crusader to date. It would take another $9 billion to complete the program. Critics maintain the Crusader is too big and heavy for the lighter, more mobile Army of the future. As defense officials worked through the fiscal 2004 Defense Planning Guidance process, some alternative technologies came to light. There were some Crusader-like technologies that evidently showed a lot of promise. It became apparent to DoD officials that proceeding with the Crusader could delay or <b>prevent funding promising technologies</b> that could benefit all services. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz asked Army Secretary Thomas White to come back within 30 days with a plan that assumes the Crusader is canceled and invests the freed $9 billion in other, more transformational, technologies. On 03 May 2002 Army Secretary Thomas White asked the Army inspector general to look into possible inappropriate behavior by service officials in connection with the Crusader artillery system program."

The Crusader achieved a sustained artillery rate of fire of 10.4 rounds a minute. It reduced the needs of artillery units, increased combat effectiveness from 24% to 53%, and reduced logistics and casualties by 1 third.

The program, which worked, was cancelled so that the money could be ear marked for FCS.

[Lt.Havoc]

Well, I´m not sitting in the Pentagon and in times where everything is tied to the war on terror you try to get your projects in. Also, only through testing you know if something works or not. Of course some things arent working as planned and not everything is really worth, but you have to see the big picture. Thing is, that wehn it works for the Military, it also works for te Law Entforcement sector. also, look at it: in both Afganhistan and Iraq, soldiers do Security roles, now what you need to do this job? Would you like to get Cops from the USA on the streets in Iraq? The soldiers that are there are doing a "Peace bulding mission" and you need specialized tech for that.

Also your danm stone does nothing wehn your sodlier wears a helmet or sits in a M2 Bradley. Well, tell me, how would you concept the Land Warrior program? How would you make the US Army ready for the future? Did you even took a look at countries like China? Or Russia? They are picking up the pace, they will have more advanced technologie in 5 or 10 years then the USA and they will sell this Tech to anyone who wants it.

Screw the Terrorists of today, with old weapons and sucuide bombing and all. The future terrorist will be a high-tech monster, that will use computers, laser guided weapons and will be more advanced then you can think now. As soon as some radical groups get the right funding, they can buy whatver they want from the market. Small countires will be able too get the best weapons now in development soon, and this is the danger, the real danger.

Ah, well and yes, I know that British, French, Australian and other nations fought in WW2. It was just an example. I cant deny that some programs just cost too much money, but thats due to Rumsfeld and some other smartasses in the Pentagon that still belive in thier doctrine of a small high-tech army that uses drones and robots and is all this stuff. They didnt relized yet, that the war in Iraq was won through convetional armored troops and that they are very successful there. The Stryker is all based on the doctrin of an lighly armored army that can defead bigger tanks. That is all bs as we know. I hope that the annual defense review will finally bring up the errors and that the folks in the Pentagon will finally wake up before its too late.

Yeah, the FCS program also costs lot of money and nothing came out yet.
Sorry for the typos, I´m a bit tired here. I should try to type slower.

[witchdoctor]

Strictly Photos & Video, with a whole lot jaw jackin tossed in.

[Lt.Havoc]

Strictly Photos & Video, with a whole lot jaw jackin tossed in.
Ok ok, sorry. I just dont have a pic right now. ^^;

[Ratamacue]

Strictly Photos & Video, with a whole lot jaw jackin tossed in.There's nothing in the rules that say that discussion is prohibited within this section. Last I saw, there are tons of pics posted in the thread. That's enough to qualify its location in this section.

[eindhoven]

Strictly Photos & Video, with a whole lot jaw jackin tossed in.

Jack this with your jaw. You want a picture. Here is an old one.

You mentioned China, Havoc. What are they developing? Heavy or light, UAV/UGV or building more battalions of soldiers?

Does anyone have any more images or stats on the GPS APC shown?

[Lt.Havoc]

Well, China has thier own version of the Land Warrior program, they just recently but a new air droppeble tank into production and fielded it to thier Airborne units. Thier Special forces got new LAV kind cars, the Type 98 tank was recently upgraded with new armor plates, they are bulding thier own UAVs, a new Attack Heli is coming soon, there are plans to build Aircraft Carriers, and there are rumors that they will buy TU-22M Backfire bomber from the Russians.

Thier soldiers get new and adnavced gear too. Danm, they look really sharp and western in the new unifroms with rhier body armor and all. They reduced thier army a lot, I thin some 40.000 soldiers had to go, but the PLA is still pretty big. Ah, the Air Force got new fighers and new Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground missles as well as laser guided bombs. Ah, well, look here for Up-to-Date info about Chinas Millitary: http://www.sinodefence.com/

[VaLiancY]

What is this gun?


The FFW will also have a new experimental weapon called the ElectroDart. It is a type of gun which delivers electric shocks to the enemy through wires when the gun is fired. The voltage of the gun is roughly 50000 volts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Warrior

[Ratamacue]

Actually, that's supposed to be a weapon that fires a personal defense round from the top barrel (like 5.7x29, 4.6x30, etc.) and guided rockets from the lower barrels.

[stateofequilibrium]

As someone who's done research before for large organizations (not military) let me just make a few comments:

1) Research will always be expensive.
2) Practicality is good for approach and methodolgy.
3) Imagination is key for discovery.

Yeah, it sometimes pains me to see billions of dollars go to this program or that. But if we just spend billions on improving on current designs that just leads us to stagnation. Sometimes we need to invest in our wildest fancies and imagination, and even if we don't get exactly what we're hoping for, the fallout is often useful, and sometimes revolutionary.

[Ghostryder]

Okay I'm not here to argue Military History, that's for the trained proffesionals as far as I'm concerned. But I will say this: If I were a Taliban fighting in Afghanistan I would be much more likely to:

Fear a man who looks like this and speaks fluent Dari,


And laugh at a poor leg with 100 lbs of gear on his back who looks like this

[Whoami88]

Okay I'm not here to argue Military History, that's for the trained proffesionals as far as I'm concerned. But I will say this: If I were a Taliban fighting in Afghanistan I would be much more likely to:

Fear a man who looks like this and speaks fluent Dari,


And laugh at a poor leg with 100 lbs of gear on his back who looks like this




I don't really understand your logic here...

[Ghostryder]

I don't really understand your logic here...

Man over Machine and all that good stuff.

Essentially what I'm saying is that as far as all this goes, I'm a Luddite.

[Whoami88]

Man over Machine and all that good stuff.

Essentially what I'm saying is that as far as all this goes, I'm a Luddite.
I believe its a Mix. Superior Technology mixed with Superior training is what makes the United States stand out from the rest. You don't seriously think a bunch of guys with little to no proper training who don't even know how to use the iron sights on their own weapons could seriously go mano to mano with us and come out on top right?

[Ghostryder]

I believe its a Mix. Superior Technology mixed with Superior training is what makes the United States stand out from the rest. You don't seriously think a bunch of guys with little to no proper training who don't even know how to use the iron sights on their own weapons could seriously go mano to mano with us and come out on top right?

A. I believe the average American Soldier/Marine/Sailor etc. is untrained in attrition warfare.

B. You should look into reading the accounts of Special Operations Forces who made contact with Al Qaeda early in the Afghanistan conflict. Not only were they well trained fighters, many took pride in their ability to make headshots from long ranges.

C. Whoever said our enemies needed to fire a gun in the first place. They have perfectly good ways of killing us without even firing a shot.

[Whoami88]

A. I believe the average American Soldier/Marine/Sailor etc. is untrained in attrition warfare.

It's not really that the average American Soldier/Marine/Sailor is "untrained" in attrition warfare. Its more of the American public that is.

It takes more then making headshots, or blowing up the occasional truck to win a war too buddy. They may be good fighters but it takes good leadership and discipline to win.

[Lt.Havoc]

It is, well said, a myth that all people in Afganistan are good sharpshooters and all. Of course, some Taliban are well trained, but that only while these guys where trained from the CIA back then to fight the soviets. Still, the avraged Afgahn figher, is as poorly trained and equit like the any other Rebel type of fighter. Also, its wrong to say that the US soldier isnt trained for this kind of combat they are facing currently. They are well trained for any type of warfare that comes along, but the current situation looks like this: most Soldiers and Marines critic that they do not get the right gear to do the job, they also say that thier commanders sue inproper strategys and that the "hearts and minds" program they pull of is a joke.

Well, I can not eleborate, but I can say this: with the proper leading, good gear, and good training, you can win against any kindof enemy.

[rep-artist]

Listen bud, if you want to see an evolution in warfare check out the thread entitled "Today's Pix". Evolution, in every concievable context, occurs in the field, not in the labratory. If you'd like to witness the marraige of overpaid industrial designers with rediculous military spending, then by all means, enjoy the Future Warrior Program. It's not my understanding that sticking a TV into a soldier's helmet and wrapping him in glorified graph paper makes a soldier a "Superior Combat Entity".

As for the Comanche, the substance doesn't much matter when one realizes that nearly Seven Billion, yes you read that correctly, $6,900,000,000,000 was spent on it before it was unceremoniously canceled.

industrial designers are uselees for most part i was one at one time i was lucky i got out of that feild before i finished my degree in it we were taught most uselless bs i was asked once what wanted to do with my dgree when a get it i said " i want to design for the Dod and help my country i was told to leave the class for the day" a later got a email from Prof. saying i should not tell people my goals. most not all but most "id" people have head so far up there a%$ they have know real world common sence. reasche is great but when applied wrong u learn far less

[Ghostryder]

Well, I can not eleborate, but I can say this: with the proper leading, good gear, and good training, you can win against any kindof enemy.

I disagree

[lrrps]

What the hell is this gun ?
What is his weight ?

It's as big as the carrier , i'm not sure that the soldier will be able to aim something after a 10 miles run !

It's some kind of airsoft with plenty of room for BBs.
The kids like it.

[Whoami88]

I disagree

Don't bother trying to explain your reasoning here buddy, we'll just read your mind here :bash:

[Ghostryder]

Alright, alright,

My point is that in conflicts like, say, Vietnam, an army with excellent training, leadership, and techmology (at the onset of the conflict) was slowly, I say again, slowly, pushed to the point of, well, the condition of the US Army in Vietnam during the Nixon presidency speaks for itself.

Granted, the Iraqi insurgency might not have a Ho Chi Minh, or a General Giap, but they do have two staging areas in Iran and Syria, and what they lack in other things, they make up in religious fervence.

I'm neither trying to condemn the quality of our military, nor decry technology in general. I see advances like the predator, ceramic plates, and, to some extent, the striker as effective advances in military technology. But, I see a serious issue in the way force is being applied in Iraq.

Call me ignorant, an airmchair general, or just plain crazy, but this is the way I see it.

[Mastermind]

I always go back to my ambush patrols in VN and wonder how these wonder suits would hold up. After sneaking out of a neck deep swamp, where leaches get into every body crevass, and you are waterlogged and packed up with black mud..and you have 200 rnds of M-60 ammo across your shoulders and 200 rounds of M-16 ammo (and your M-16 and a .45 M1911)and two canteens of water and four grenades and a claymore slung on you. And, to get out of the swamp, you have to scramble up a 12 food slick mud embankment ...and if you are the M-60 guy...its even worse. What happens to that fancy ballistic eye shield when a 88 mm mortar round landing in your kill zone splats mud all over you?

@Ghostryder ---yer right!

[Lt.Havoc]

Well, wars like vietnam and Iraq cant be won by the millitary alone. You have to improve the living of the people, you have to give them a perspective and a job, food, something over thier head, something they can be proud one, something they worked for. Then, if a man is busy doing his job. like framing, building a Hospital, a school or whatver, busy with thier work, thinking at the wife and children at home, they will most likley be unwilling to support any kind of terrorists that threat his live, his familiy and his work. They also need a goverment, that supports the people and that is supportet by the people. If you have a goverment, that is not a puppet and that gets supportet by its citizens, or at least 90% of them, you have less problems too.

There also must be laws, and a constitution that threat people equally, whatver thier religion etc. is. Laws must be done so, that abuse of power, corruption and all these kind of stuff cant be happen and wehn it happens, that they get punished equally to the damage they made. There shouldnt be a death penalty, not rights of touture or anything else that would bring the goverment and his servants in miscredit.

High-Tech weapons alone dont work for wars like this, they cant bring the end of the war, nor peace. But, even if its hard to say, the USA have to stay in Iraq. If they pull out now, its a victory for the islamic terorists and thier supporters and that would lead to the things we saw in Afgahnistan, during the war with Russia. It only helps to grow another hot-spot that will emerge more subversive elements that threat world peace.

[Mastermind]

Lt. Havoc, how do these "peace" requirements get met so that people can do these lovely things...especially when "insurgents" are blasting police stations and the police inside them to confetti? Perhaps we could just talk to them ...let them know how much we want the farmer to be in his field and such. I wanted office workers in New York city to be able to just go to work and do their work and think about their families...I thought that was what they were doing on 9/11...

[Ghostryder]

Well, wars like vietnam and Iraq cant be won by the millitary alone. You have to improve the living of the people, you have to give them a perspective and a job, food, something over thier head, something they can be proud one, something they worked for. Then, if a man is busy doing his job. like framing, building a Hospital, a school or whatver, busy with thier work, thinking at the wife and children at home, they will most likley be unwilling to support any kind of terrorists that threat his live, his familiy and his work. They also need a goverment, that supports the people and that is supportet by the people. If you have a goverment, that is not a puppet and that gets supportet by its citizens, or at least 90% of them, you have less problems too.

There also must be laws, and a constitution that threat people equally, whatver thier religion etc. is. Laws must be done so, that abuse of power, corruption and all these kind of stuff cant be happen and wehn it happens, that they get punished equally to the damage they made. There shouldnt be a death penalty, not rights of touture or anything else that would bring the goverment and his servants in miscredit.

High-Tech weapons alone dont work for wars like this, they cant bring the end of the war, nor peace. But, even if its hard to say, the USA have to stay in Iraq. If they pull out now, its a victory for the islamic terorists and thier supporters and that would lead to the things we saw in Afgahnistan, during the war with Russia. It only helps to grow another hot-spot that will emerge more subversive elements that threat world peace.


Lt. Havoc, how do these "peace" requirements get met so that people can do these lovely things...especially when "insurgents" are blasting police stations and the police inside them to confetti? Perhaps we could just talk to them ...let them know how much we want the farmer to be in his field and such. I wanted office workers in New York city to be able to just go to work and do their work and think about their families...I thought that was what they were doing on 9/11...

I couldn't agree with you more.

[kilroy1911]

It's some kind of airsoft with plenty of room for BBs.
The kids like it.

its a french weapon system from 1990s called POPAP - which means something like "polyarmee - polyprojectile". (sorry if it isnt correct, i dont speak french). In english it is a multipurpose gun with various ammo. It is a combination of 5.56 mm AR and 40mm? GL. It seems to be one of the bulkiest weapons on the Earth. The whole POPAP project seems to be dead, I am not even sure, if this isnt just a not functional model...

[Hemaworstje]

so how much are all these toys gonna cost the US tax payer?

roughly i would say;

The USA spends about 10 % of it's national Budget on "Defense ".
( war's excluded , total costs Iraq part 2 the sequal +-85.000.000.000 $)
the revenue of defence-industry is about ten times as low as you would invest the same amount of money on a normal bank account.
you might as well go to Vegas with that money. the odds are on your side.

[CPL Trevoga]

http://images.google.com/url?q=http://justbewise.free.fr/gallery/dump/papop.jpg

Good luck humping this on a 20-miler buddy!!!

[ed316]

roughly i would say;

The USA spends about 10 % of it's national Budget on "Defense ".
( war's excluded , total costs Iraq part 2 the sequal +-85.000.000.000 $)
the revenue of defence-industry is about ten times as low as you would invest the same amount of money on a normal bank account.
you might as well go to Vegas with that money. the odds are on your side.

The US military spending is only 3.7% when compared with US GDP.

[Zeke]

Kilroy, lrrps: The name of the gun is PAPOP (instead of POPAP). Not a biggy but anyways.

[Lt.Havoc]

Lt. Havoc, how do these "peace" requirements get met so that people can do these lovely things...especially when "insurgents" are blasting police stations and the police inside them to confetti? Perhaps we could just talk to them ...let them know how much we want the farmer to be in his field and such. I wanted office workers in New York city to be able to just go to work and do their work and think about their families...I thought that was what they were doing on 9/11...

Well, thats the problem. But you need to ask where these insurgents come from. I didnt said its all talking, but let the guns do the talking is also wrong. Thing is, that you can kill as many insurgents as you want, you also will always kill innocent peoples too. Just think of it, any civillian that gets shot from a US soldier, will most likley have a familiy, a brother, or father, or uncle, that will most lilkey hate the USA for that, and will begin to support the insurgents. Of course, you never can eliminated the chance the innocents get shot, but, you need to avoid civillian casualties, otherwise you stand there as a agressor.

What Iraq needs is a combination of both Political and military operations. But its all more difficult as it may seem from the outside. There are clans that fight against eachother, there are religions conflicts as well as ethnic, then there are the leftovers from Saddams Regime and all the crooks that think they get get something out of the war and just cause havoc. Of course, there are the outsiders, that come to fight the US Troops there. All in all, its a real big mess and there is no ideal asnwer how to bring peace into Iraq at all.

There is no "Exit strategy" that will work. If the USA leave the Iraw now, its a huge succses for all fanatics in the world and will only to lead more terror. All we can hope for, is that the USA satays and that the insurgents run out of manpower or that they relize, if the USA stays more years, that its useless to fight them anymore and that no one will join them anymore.

Also, the example I gave earlier, about peace requirements may not suit the Iraq for the current condition, but it may help to understand, how situations like in Iraq and insurgents in general could be prevented in other nations. Its working well in the Africa, where the USA helps local farmers and gives them a chance to survive.

I´m sorry that I can not give you a real answer on this. I guess that a lot of people in the Pentagon and the US Administration though about it and are still thinking about it, so its way beyond my capabilities to get a answer to the Iraq question.
:-(

[Andrew116]

These weapon systems in this post are amazing and truely show how far we have come in tech. But I feel that we have lost sight of the most basic and at the same time complex component of all of the this. The soldier, the human that will use the equitment. If a soldier isn't trained right it all will go to hell! Also we dont need all of this to kill the enemy, since the time of the bible we have been figureing out ways to kill others, the fact that we feel that we need to develope the XM8 Rifle to replace the Colt M16 which has been doing the job since Nam. shows that we need to reprioritse what we spend our defence money on. The money from that program could have gone to body armor enhancement to help save the lifes of our soldiers. While they use the same gun that has been working for 30 years. Im sry but it just frustaights me to see my tax dollars to goto programs that wont help or even be used.

[Lt.Havoc]

These weapon systems in this post are amazing and truely show how far we have come in tech. But I feel that we have lost sight of the most basic and at the same time complex component of all of the this. The soldier, the human that will use the equitment. If a soldier isn't trained right it all will go to hell! Also we dont need all of this to kill the enemy, since the time of the bible we have been figureing out ways to kill others, the fact that we feel that we need to develope the XM8 Rifle to replace the Colt M16 which has been doing the job since Nam. shows that we need to reprioritse what we spend our defence money on. The money from that program could have gone to body armor enhancement to help save the lifes of our soldiers. While they use the same gun that has been working for 30 years. Im sry but it just frustaights me to see my tax dollars to goto programs that wont help or even be used.

Well, I agree at some points with you. The US Army treis to compensate reduced traning with Techlology, wich cant work. About the Armor, yes I agree. About the Rifle: well, the M16 was upgreaded various times, but never was really that satisfactory. The M16, M16A1 had lots of problems that where first sloved with the M16A2, that got upgraded to the A3 and A4 Variants. Still, the weapon is too long, then there is the weight, only a small part, but its there. Also, with all attatchments the normal Mgun weights a lot. Scope, greandelauncger, lasersight all this adds more weight to it and unbalances the gun.

The same goes for the M4, but with the addition that the muzzel velocity is reduced to the shorter barrel and that means, less stopping power and reduced range. Also, for vehicle ops, its sometimes too long and you can not use it one handed, at least not accurate, and the M9 pistol is too weak and has not enough range. This gap could be filled with the MP7-PDW or P90, as for the main riifle, the HK416 looks like a really good concpet, less plastic, more M16 and a lot HK.

Well, everyone complains why they try to phase out the M16 and no one seems to remeber that the M60 also worked well and that it gave a imporved version of it and now, everyone is happy with its M240. Wired....

[AlphaOneSix]

The US military spending is only 3.7% when compared with US GDP.
This is somewhat misleading, considering that the entire federal budget is less than 20% of US GDP.

[BloodyTalon]

These weapon systems in this post are amazing and truely show how far we have come in tech. But I feel that we have lost sight of the most basic and at the same time complex component of all of the this. The soldier, the human that will use the equitment. If a soldier isn't trained right it all will go to hell! Also we dont need all of this to kill the enemy, since the time of the bible we have been figureing out ways to kill others, the fact that we feel that we need to develope the XM8 Rifle to replace the Colt M16 which has been doing the job since Nam. shows that we need to reprioritse what we spend our defence money on. The money from that program could have gone to body armor enhancement to help save the lifes of our soldiers. While they use the same gun that has been working for 30 years. Im sry but it just frustaights me to see my tax dollars to goto programs that wont help or even be used.
Welcome to the wonderful world of R&D. Money gets wasted on what's not needed (Commanche, XM8) or too early to be of any use (Future Warrior). But, eventually all the bullsh!t gets cut and we end up with useful tech for the troops.

[Lt.Havoc]

Yeah, that too. I 100% agree with you Talon.

[Andrew116]

Oh, Talon dont even get me started on the RAH-66 and your right about the Future Warrior program. You can convince me that "Future Soldier 2020" will be the ultimate or even a great improvement. 2010 looks like a better program anyway.

And Havoc I agree the HK416 does look like a solid system (Interesting how that came about as they were canceling the XM8 program) O well someday someone will see what needs to get done.

*Wonders* What happens to all this stuff? I'll buy it (lol) *Imagins him self comuteing to work in a RAH-66 Commanche, or paintballing in the Future Warrior equitment* lmao thinking (I really gots to stop doing that lol)

[AlbertoTani]

There is a very simple way to defeat insurgency, used by Genghiz Khan and the Romans. Massacre an entire city as an example to others who would try to conduct guerilla operations. Annihilate the entire local population.

Under the current atmosphere, this will never happen today, which is a GOOD thing. However the solution to guerilla warfare is always simple. Namely, kill 'em all.

On equipment and future war, I say fck it and give everyone flamethrowers p-)