Polish MiG-29

[REMOV]

http://www.plfoto.com/zdjecia/243285.jpg
http://www.plfoto.com/zdjecia/253379.jpg
http://www.plfoto.com/zdjecia/244671.jpg
http://www.plfoto.com/zdjecia/246197.jpg

Photos taken by sfw, served as pilot of the MiG-29.

[SEALInTheMaking]

Sweetest aircraft ever built. Id kill mustamato for a ride in one of those. ;)

[mustamato]

Sweetest aircraft ever built. Id kill mustamato for a ride in one of those. ;)

Would you be flying it yourself as well? Hopefully :)

Hm, have the poles got the Germans MiG-29´s? I heard that somewhere.

[kinghk]

Hm, have the poles got the Germans MiG-29´s? I heard that somewhere.

Yup. The bought it for one Euro a piece.

[basket of soft kittens]

king hk

your picture sucks :fork:

[Marmot1]

Actualy ex-german are not operational now they are undergoing inspections and maitenance work... they are expected to enter service at the end of the year.

[wholagun]

Actualy ex-german are not operational now they are undergoing inspections and maitenance work... they are expected to enter service at the end of the year.

Your kidding right? What are we trying to insult the Germans and start another war, why would we need to inspect them. Their Mig are probably crazy ass taken care of. Remeber its German engineers and maintence crews that worked on these planes. :D Oh you gotta love the Germans and thier work ethics.

[mustamato]

I thought the same thing as wholagun. If someone can maintain and take
care of their stuff it must be the germans. How many MiG-29´s did Poland
get... or "buy"?

[wholagun]

The entire German fleet of Mig 29s, ALL of them woot and up to date with the latest equipment giving us immediate NATO standards. This all for the price of 1 Euro per plane,
that deserves a double woot woot

[Kenshin]

can it be fitted with NATO missiles?

[wholagun]

can it be fitted with NATO missiles?

good question. But, given the fact that these are German Migs 29s and up to NATO standards and fully compatible I assume they can be fitted with NATO missiles but I don't know for sure, but it would make sense that they would be given what they are NATO comaptable and up to NATO standards. Im sure the othe Poles would be better able to answer this more accurately.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Your kidding right? What are we trying to insult the Germans and start another war, why would we need to inspect them. Their Mig are probably crazy ass taken care of. Remeber its German engineers and maintence crews that worked on these planes. :D Oh you gotta love the Germans and thier work ethics.

No kidding. The unit which flew on MiGs will recieve Eurofighters by the end of this year. Germans thought that they will scrap the MiGs, so they flew very intensively on them. And then, suddenly, we came... :D
The airplanes need inspections & repairs because of high expenditure- mainly engines and hydraulics.

[tony6]

Right now we have 22 MiGs-29 + 23 ex-Germans.

[wholagun]

being in NATO won't we need an air supperiority jet? We got the F16 which is a strike aircraft allowing us to comply with that area, but do we need still an air dominace aircraft?

Personally I don't think we need an air domiance aircraft just yet maybe 10 - 15 years down the road we should consider the Typhoon, in the mean time we got the Mig 29s and Su 27s.

[Collosus]

Where exacly did u hear about a su 27 in polish AF? Surely u mean su 22....

[wholagun]

Where exacly did u hear about a su 27 in polish AF? Surely u mean su 22....

:oops: oops :cantbeli:

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

I think that we will have a good 'triangle' in Polish AF:
Su22s for close support/ strike missions
MiG29s for defense of Polish airspace
F16s for deep strike missions/international operations/long range fighter missions

[wholagun]

isn't the Su - 22 abit old? I know we're upgrading them but we'll need to replace them soon.

[wholagun]

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/vvs/planes/su22m.jpg
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/vvs/planes/su22m4_003.jpg

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

No, we aren't upgradnig Su22s :(

There was a good Israeli offer from IAI (which included glass cockpit avioncis, guided bombs, Israeli radar etc.) but AF got a big Lack Of Money.

Pilots call Su22 the 'blind boxer'. It's a very good aircraft, but with poor avionics (no radar, old laser rangefinder, no thermal imaging, GPS, mainly unguided ammunition).

Ministry of defence thinks that Su22 will remain in service until 2009-2012.

[MolliG]

All Fulcrums are A*s (and 'G's of course) right? :)

* Russian designation A, not NATO.

[wholagun]

No, we aren't upgradnig Su22s :(

There was a good Israeli offer from IAI (which included glass cockpit avioncis, guided bombs, Israeli radar etc.) but AF got a big Lack Of Money.

Pilots call Su22 the 'blind boxer'. It's a very good aircraft, but with poor avionics (no radar, old laser rangefinder, no thermal imaging, GPS, mainly unguided ammunition).

Ministry of defence thinks that Su22 will remain in service until 2009-2012.

Whats this then?


Sukhoi and Polish military aviation works WZL-2 at Bydgoszcz have signed an agreement covering the overhaul and upgrade ofSu-22M4/UM3K Fitter fighter bombers in Polish air force and air defence service.

Poland operates80 single- and two-seat ..


http://www.flightinternational.com/FALANDING_161304.htm

I found that when I was looking for Su 22 pics, so there actually is a deal for upgrading the Su 22 or was it canceled?

[perdurabo]

prabably we don't have enough money to upgrade Su22 :(
BTW i've heard about russian offer that they will take all our old MiG21 for sale to some african countries and give us some MiG29

Our 22 and 29 should be upgraded but money money money:( prabably if not this stupid mission to iraq we could upgrade few planes :(

[tony6]

This MiG-29 for used MiG-21 thing was finaly contradicted by Russian Ministry of Defence.

[Sorbas2000]

No, we aren't upgradnig Su22s :(

There was a good Israeli offer from IAI (which included glass cockpit avioncis, guided bombs, Israeli radar etc.) but AF got a big Lack Of Money.

Pilots call Su22 the 'blind boxer'. It's a very good aircraft, but with poor avionics (no radar, old laser rangefinder, no thermal imaging, GPS, mainly unguided ammunition).

Ministry of defence thinks that Su22 will remain in service until 2009-2012.

That is not true. Su-22M4 can carry a wide range of guided missiles: Laser-/ TV guided AS-10 / AS-14, KAB-500, AS-12 anti-radar, AS-11 Kilter anti-radar (with avionic pod).

Avionics:

- CVM20-22 central control computer
- PrNK-54 navigation system
- a combination of RSDN (an equivalent of Loran)
- A-312 (an equivalent of Tacan)
- DISS-7 Doppler navigation system
- KLEN-45 laser range-finder
- ASP-178C gun sight (HUD)
- IKV-8 inertial navigation device (INS)
- ARK-22 automatic radio compass
- SRO-2 transponder of the ”identification friend-or-foe” system
- SO-69 active transponder
- SPO-15LE SIRENA RWR

"The pilot has a TV display to control guidance of air-to-surface missiles with a TV guidance system....For precision strikes against ground targets from the airspace beyond effective reach of anti-air defence it can use several types of air-to-surface radio-guided or laser-guided missiles, including Ch-25 (AS-10 Karen and AS-12 Kegler), Ch-29 and Ch-58E (AS-11 Kilter) anti-radar missiles."
So maybe Poland uses this formidable strike fighter only with unguided bombs because it lacks of guided missiles? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Su-22M4 only lacks of FLIR, GPS, modern communications, maybe terrain radar and glass cockpit.[/i]

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

That is not true. Su-22M4 can carry a wide range of guided missiles: Laser-/ TV guided AS-10 / AS-14, KAB-500, AS-12 anti-radar, AS-11 Kilter anti-radar (with avionic pod).


Did I said that Su22 usues ONLY unguided ammo? I said that it uses MAINLY unguided.



Avionics:

- CVM20-22 central control computer
- PrNK-54 navigation system
- a combination of RSDN (an equivalent of Loran)
- A-312 (an equivalent of Tacan)
- DISS-7 Doppler navigation system
- KLEN-45 laser range-finder
- ASP-178C gun sight (HUD)
- IKV-8 inertial navigation device (INS)
- ARK-22 automatic radio compass
- SRO-2 transponder of the ?identification friend-or-foe? system
- SO-69 active transponder
- SPO-15LE SIRENA RWR


So what? All that systems are totally obsolete. But, of course you can always name late 60s technology 'formidable'.



"The pilot has a TV display to control guidance of air-to-surface missiles with a TV guidance system....For precision strikes against ground targets from the airspace beyond effective reach of anti-air defence it can use several types of air-to-surface radio-guided or laser-guided missiles, including Ch-25 (AS-10 Karen and AS-12 Kegler), Ch-29 and Ch-58E (AS-11 Kilter) anti-radar missiles."

Yup, thats true. But you can't use Ch25 and Ch29 as a stand-off weapons.




So maybe Poland uses this formidable strike fighter only with unguided bombs because it lacks of guided missiles? :lol: :lol: :lol:


Formidable :D
Russia/USSR never exported it's best and 'formidable' weapons. Su22 was wide-spread in Eastern Block and 3rd world countries.
Su22 can't attack without visibility of target. It has no stand-off capabilities. It can't fly in NOE mode. It has very limited AA capabilities (no radar, R60 missiles only). It's navigation systems are very inaccurate.
And you can't compare KLON to any modern guide system (LANTIRN etc.)

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Sorry, I forgot about that:




Su-22M4 only lacks of FLIR, GPS, modern communications, maybe terrain radar and glass cockpit.

The VERY important systems on today's battlefield.

[Sorbas2000]

Sorry, I forgot about that:




Su-22M4 only lacks of FLIR, GPS, modern communications, maybe terrain radar and glass cockpit.

The VERY important systems on today's battlefield.

Modernize some avionic equipment and Su22M4 will be a usable striker for the next 10 years!

What do you think: As-10 and AS-14 or AS-11 are close range or BVR weapons?

FYI: Poland and Bulgaria are using Su-22M4, which is not cheap export hardware, like Su-22M3 or Su-20, that most other countries are using. With 1,5-2 m USD you can modernize Su-22 to a very reliable strike craft, even for today!

[perdurabo]

Sorry, I forgot about that:




Su-22M4 only lacks of FLIR, GPS, modern communications, maybe terrain radar and glass cockpit.

The VERY important systems on today's battlefield.

Modernize some avionic equipment and Su22M4 will be a usable striker for the next 10 years!

What do you think: As-10 and AS-14 or AS-11 are close range or BVR weapons?

FYI: Poland and Bulgaria are using Su-22M4, which is not cheap export hardware, like Su-22M3 or Su-20, that most other countries are using. With 1,5-2 m USD you can modernize Su-22 to a very reliable strike craft, even for today!
But Poland have ~80 of 22 modernisation of whole fleet would be expensive and our budget is veeery tight...
22 and 29 should be upgraded prabably almoust everything should be reffited/replaced then we can talk about them as modern aircrafts and using them in battle but it will cost...:)

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Modernize some avionic equipment and Su22M4 will be a usable striker for the next 10 years!


That's what I'm talking about!
The Israeli proposal was very good, it liquidated most of Su22s weaknesses, and expanded it's capabilities, making Su22 a really good strike plane.
But our MoD is [ censored ]. :fork: :-*$ :bash:

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

But Poland have ~80 of 22 modernisation of whole fleet would be expensive and our budget is veeery tight...
22 and 29 should be upgraded prabably almoust everything should be reffited/replaced then we can talk about them as modern aircrafts and using them in battle but it will cost...:)

Yes, but we don't need to modernise whole Su22 fleet:
No there are 8 squadrons, 2 will fly on -29s, 3 on F16, so only 3 on Su22s.
There are 16 planes in each squadron, so 16x3= 48.

And if cost was still too big, we could modernise the planes with help of Russians, as we did with Mi24s.

[Shadow]

Grrr
23 Migs for 23 Eur
This is what i get as pocket money! ;)

[tooms]

cool pics of polish mig29 woot

[wholagun]

Grrr
23 Migs for 23 Eur
This is what i get as pocket money! ;)

Grrr? Why, your getting Typhoons. Id be more then happy to part with the Migs for the Typhoon.

23 Euros... :lol: yeah, don't you just love us. What i don't get is why Poland gets all the used German equipment and not Czech Rep or Hungry or Lithuania.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

23 Euros... :lol: yeah, don't you just love us. What i don't get is why Poland gets all the used German equipment and not Czech Rep or Hungry or Lithuania.

AFAIR Lithuania has 2 ex-German minehunters...
But I have no idea why we got MiGs for 23 euros, 128 Leopards for 1/3 of normal price etc. We have to ask German MoD :D

[mustamato]

23 Euros... :lol: yeah, don't you just love us. What i don't get is why Poland gets all the used German equipment and not Czech Rep or Hungry or Lithuania.

AFAIR Lithuania has 2 ex-German minehunters...
But I have no idea why we got MiGs for 23 euros, 128 Leopards for 1/3 of normal price etc. We have to ask German MoD :D

The Poles will be cannonfodder when Russia wants Berlin some day in the future.

[wholagun]

23 Euros... :lol: yeah, don't you just love us. What i don't get is why Poland gets all the used German equipment and not Czech Rep or Hungry or Lithuania.

AFAIR Lithuania has 2 ex-German minehunters...
But I have no idea why we got MiGs for 23 euros, 128 Leopards for 1/3 of normal price etc. We have to ask German MoD :D

Im assuming they got a defect that all German military ppl know about so that next time they invade the equipment they gave us will break down at that particular moment and we will be left without Leopards and jets allowing the germans to take us over easier. p-)




The Poles will be cannonfodder when Russia wants Berlin some day in the future.

so what else is new? thats been our job for all of 19th and 20th centuries

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Im assuming they got a defect that all German military ppl know about so that next time they invade the equipment they gave us will break down at that particular moment and we will be left without Leopards and jets allowing the germans to take us over easier. p-)

BTW I've heard that software in exported American military equipment (F16s too) has installed specific 'bugs'. When client want to use this equipment against US, or US interests, Washington sends a signal, and bugs destroy software in airplanes, tanks, AA systems, and other military computers. Thats why UAE and Israel are writing their own software for their F16s.


The Poles will be cannonfodder when Russia wants Berlin some day in the future.


so what else is new? thats been our job for all of 19th and 20th centuries

We have to get use to it :D

[tony6]

The Poles will be cannonfodder when Russia wants Berlin some day in the future.
Nothing new.
:)

[perdurabo]

The Poles will be cannonfodder when Russia wants Berlin some day in the future.
Nothing new.
:)
Until we arent backstabbed by germans/russians we can kick russia/germany so i don't afraid :)

[wholagun]

BTW I've heard that software in exported American military equipment (F16s too) has installed specific 'bugs'. When client want to use this equipment against US, or US interests, Washington sends a signal, and bugs destroy software in airplanes, tanks, AA systems, and other military computers. Thats why UAE and Israel are writing their own software for their F16s

****, if thats true our jets are pieces of ****, unless it possible to delete the software and write out own. If US feels its interests are involved in one of our conflict then it can turn off our jets, fvck that. That like cutting off leg.
Hypothetical situation: EU goes to War with US and its ally Russia - Poland in EU is thus an enemy of both, US goes and turns off our jets. Thats retarded. If you don't like my example then you can come up with our own but you get the idea (if we want to attack a target/nation and it conflits with US interests then we're pretty much fvcked) too hell with that

If this is true what you say, and I don't know if it is or not, then I would've rather got the Gripphen then the F16. If its true I don't want anymore US jets, get european only.

[perdurabo]

****, if thats true our jets are pieces of ****, unless it possible to delete the software and write out own. If US feels its interests are involved in one of our conflict then it can turn off our jets, fvck that. That like cutting off leg.
Hypothetical situation: EU goes to War with US and its ally Russia - Poland in EU is thus an enemy of both, US goes and turns off our jets. Thats retarded. If you don't like my example then you can come up with our own but you get the idea (if we want to attack a target/nation and it conflits with US interests then we're pretty much fvcked) too hell with that

If this is true what you say, and I don't know if it is or not, then I would've rather got the Gripphen then the F16. If its true I don't want anymore US jets, get european only.

Almoust all ppl in Poland prefered Grippen but this was political case :(
Prabably when war like that breaks up usa turns off our f16 russia turns out mig29 su22 and mi8/14/17/24 germany turns off our leo2 and we ar ****ed:)

[wholagun]

Almoust all ppl in Poland prefered Grippen but this was political case
Prabably when war like that breaks up usa turns off our f16 russia turns out mig29 su22 and mi8/14/17/24 germany turns off our leo2 and we ar f***:)


lol :lol: yeah we're screwed. Not to mention the problems of the offset deals now with the US offer. Damn I hate politics, I also wanted the Grippen over the F 16. Too late for anything now, we can only pray for the Typhoon.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

****, if thats true our jets are pieces of ****, unless it possible to delete the software and write out own. If US feels its interests are involved in one of our conflict then it can turn off our jets, fvck that. That like cutting off leg.
Hypothetical situation: EU goes to War with US and its ally Russia - Poland in EU is thus an enemy of both, US goes and turns off our jets. Thats retarded. If you don't like my example then you can come up with our own but you get the idea (if we want to attack a target/nation and it conflits with US interests then we're pretty much fvcked) too hell with that

If this is true what you say, and I don't know if it is or not, then I would've rather got the Gripphen then the F16. If its true I don't want anymore US jets, get european only.

Noone is sure about these 'bugs'. But fact is- US never gave any client access to military software's source codes. Some time ago there were articles about this issue in most of Polish military magazines.

Dassault and SAAB offered us full access to source codes and joint development of software...

Half of Europe (Portugal, Spain, Italy, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, Greece, Turkey, Finland, Norway) is flying on US jets, so not only Poland would be grounded... :)

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

And BTW Mirage is better than both F16 and Grippen! :D

[tony6]

Too late for anything now, we can only pray for the Typhoon.
Are You kiddin'?
We picked up F-16 so in a 10-12 years we'll have F-35s for sure (it's a natural sequence).

[Marmot1]

Too late for anything now, we can only pray for the Typhoon.
Are You kiddin'?
We picked up F-16 so in a 10-12 years we'll have F-35s for sure (it's a natural sequence).

Yeah we will have in 1:35 or 1:72 scale...

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Yeah we will have in 1:35 or 1:72 scale...

rofl

Yup, we probably see real F35 in... maybe... 2020?

[Marmot1]

Damn you are optimist... ;)

[perdurabo]

And BTW Mirage is better than both F16 and Grippen! :D oh get lost ;-) we should build our own plane :P

[Catch22]

Saab is in trouble - they just admitted that Gripen radar is "udnderdeveloped" and fired some 60 people form its factory in Sweden. Some problems occured while testing new planes to be exported to RPA. Brazil contract for 12 Grippen jets is now questioned by some authorities...

Maybe Falcon C/D block 52+ was a wise choice after all :roll:

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Maybe Falcon C/D block 52+ was a wise choice after all :roll:
It isn't bad :)

F16 is better in deep strike missions, Mirage in air defence and Gripen in.... hm... maybe.... I don't know :D

Gripen's only advantage is low cost of use.

[mack pl]

Perdurabo,we trying to build our own plane.Dont forget about Scorpion,Szerszen(Hornet),Cobra2000 etc.It was few years ago, but you know about it i guess ;) Unfortunately we must buy plane in other country :( BTW i think Poland need more helicopters, for our air cavalry.But maybe ours minister of defens Szmajdzinski know better what our army need :|

[perdurabo]

Perdurabo,we trying to build our own plane.Dont forget about Scorpion,Szerszen(Hornet),Cobra2000 etc.It was few years ago, but you know about it i guess ;) Unfortunately we must buy plane in other country :( BTW i think Poland need more helicopters, for our air cavalry.But maybe ours minister of defens Szmajdzinski know better what our army need :| i remember also huzar project and goryl and meany others $$$ is the problem and stupid politics too but it isnt discusion for an international forum mayby if somebody have pics of Scorpion and others canceled (espetialy almoust unknown) projects? it would be intresting to har about them more:)

[mack pl]

Maybe Remov have this pics, he have pics of everything on this planet ;)

[tony6]

Yeah we will have in 1:35 or 1:72 scale...
Why do You say so?
F-35 is a natural consequence of F-16.
I'm not saying NOW but in 10-12 years.

[tony6]

You have to know guys that REMOV is one of those people who think that cancelling Scorpion project was a good thing to do!
He claims that it was totall bull****-ask him for Yourself :D
He is not a proper person to ask about Scorpion photos :D

[tony6]

http://oceanic.wsisiz.edu.pl/~zawadka/scorpion7_kop.jpg
http://oceanic.wsisiz.edu.pl/~zawadka/scorpion_gor_kop.jpg
http://oceanic.wsisiz.edu.pl/~zawadka/scorpion_kop.jpg

[mustamato]

Saab is in trouble - they just admitted that Gripen radar is "udnderdeveloped" and fired some 60 people form its factory in Sweden. Some problems occured while testing new planes to be exported to RPA. Brazil contract for 12 Grippen jets is now questioned by some authorities...

Maybe Falcon C/D block 52+ was a wise choice after all :roll:

Gripens radar underdeveloped? One nice thing with Gripen is that the screens
have blacked out several times in flight in the swedish Air Force. Maybe it´s just
the media that has made a big deal out of nothing, but obviously the pilots
"have lost all confidence" in the plane. There was a incident where one pilot
came in the jetstream of a another plane during a mock dogfight and he couldn´t
control the plane for like 20 seconds, the plane was going for the ground and one
more second and he would have ejected.

But as said, maybe it´s just the media. And it´s not like the F-16´s have not
had their problems and their share amount of crashes.

http://www.svt.se/nyheter/1999/990920/jaskrasch1.jpg
First crash during landing, (one landing gear folded and the
plane started tumbling), was dubbed by the media "to the worlds
most expensive digger"

http://www.svt.se/nyheter/1999/990920/jaskrasch2.jpg
Second crash, the plane just stopped mid-air, problems with
the technology, during Stockholm water festival, crashed beside
a bridge with approximately 10.000 people, had it crashed on the
bridge... same pilot as during the first crash :)

http://www.svt.se/nyheter/1999/990920/jaskarta.jpg
Third crash in a lake during a dogfight exercise, I don´t know
why it crashed, but it could have been the human error, it happens
sometimes.

[mack pl]

Ok Tony, i dont asked him ;)

[tony6]

and the early version model:
http://www.astercity.net/~zprzemek/images/4.jpg
http://www.astercity.net/~zprzemek/images/16.jpg

[perdurabo]

also natural concequence would be F/A 22?;-) it yes i take it :D
About scorpion ok i know enough but other ones Remov would you be so niece and could find and post it here?
I try to find something and post also...

[tomcat1974]

well first NICE PICTURES ... Seems that Poland will continue to fly Mig29. That is ok. But if they don't upgrade then are almost uselless fo NATO missions..Hopefully the F-16 will be here :)

Su22 NEED upgrades and FAST for 80 planes let say some 300Millions($) USD you would get a nice plane. Like Romania go the Lancers..witch are still the only ex-WP planes compatible and fully capable to launch NATO weapons, PGM attacks Buddy LASING(Litening Pods), new comms , etc.

Zorba please don't talk about the state of the Bulgarian Air Force. It needs money.. Ol' rusty Mig21 are still the base..Mig29 didn't finished the "UPGRADE" (IFF and TACAN). BTW that is not upgrade... SNIPER is UPGRADE.

REMOV what helicopter POLAND use for air transport?

[perdurabo]

REMOV what helicopter POLAND use for air transport?
i'm not remov but i can answer:)
Small helos
Mi2 but they are going out
and new as a replacment SW4 witch is polish construction
medium
W-3 Sokół (hawk) polish construction
hevy(not so hevy..)
Mi8/17 (they will be out in next 5-7yrs)

Attack helos
small
Mi2URP(out in next few yrs)
Mi24 (only 16of them will be upgraded)
(Project huzar witch was based upon W3 was canceled but new small atack helo is proposed based upon SW4)
and
Mi14
Kaman SH-2G as anti-sub helos

and W-3 Sokół and Mi14 as sea rescue (SAR)

[tomcat1974]

thanx for the fast answer.

Well Romania use mostly IAR-330 PUMA(licence of the Eurocpter now Cougar) since 80's . The Mil-8/Mil17 are I think retired.
Also IAR 316 Alloutte is used as light transport an antitank(a weird choice- big glass bubble :) ).
We started a upgrade program to create a attack helicopter from the IAR 330 SOCAT. (it has all the needed stuff IR, Laser guided AT Missiles, helmet mounted sight, slave turret gun etc) .Preatty much a usefull tool (still i would preffer the Bell AH-1RO Dracula wicth was canceled , now the factory is 51% Eurocpter so the Tigre might be out there for us ).

[perdurabo]

SW4:
http://www.interlog.com/~prezes/stuff/foto/techno/sw4-01.jpg
http://www.ainonline.com/Features/newrotorcraft03/sw4.html


Ok Orkan project:
http://www.interlog.com/~prezes/stuff/foto/techno/orkan.gif
CAS plane based on I22 Iryda (canceled:( too) was competitor of scorpion project

Iryda:
http://www.interlog.com/~prezes/stuff/foto/techno/p-i22-1.jpg

hmm we should make new thread dedicated for Polish flying stuff :)

[tomcat1974]

My first impression on Orkan and Iryda ..is that plane looks like a cross between Su-25 and Alphajet. A CAS plane build in Poland would be very costlly. Heck IAR-93 was a byproduction with Yugoslavia (J22 -Orao) and still was very expensive to use and mantain. Then again back then the Western technologies where not available at the moment. Anyway you should 100% do a Topic on Poland's Planes

[perdurabo]

My first impression on Orkan and Iryda ..is that plane looks like a cross between Su-25 and Alphajet. A CAS plane build in Poland would be very costlly. Heck IAR-93 was a byproduction with Yugoslavia (J22 -Orao) and still was very expensive to use and mantain. Then again back then the Western technologies where not available at the moment. Anyway you should 100% do a Topic on Poland's Planes
i already make new topic:D
as for I-22 Russians offered us technology of Su25 for canceling this project (it was started in erly 80') first it flew with old engines (SO-5??) and was build in small series ~12 or something like that nex they changed to new eingine K-15 and plane crashed so our politics started to babling tht iryda is bad plane it's killer plane and so on so they canceled but our navy is intrested to buy them as recon and small atack planes so they will be in line (maybe with other eingine like RolssRoyce Vyper os Senecma or P&W?? and for sure with other avionics)

[wholagun]

wasn't there talk about getting US Cobras back in 200 or something but that got posponed after we decided to upgrad our existing Helos.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

You have to know guys that REMOV is one of those people who think that cancelling Scorpion project was a good thing to do!
He claims that it was totall bull****-ask him for Yourself :D


I agree with him p-)

[IDFM203]

First I want to say good postings on the Israeli offer to upgrade some polish jets, for I brought it up before on this forum and I believe a few (not all) polish members doubted what I said before.

Yeah its too bad Poland never went along with the offer, I guess they decided to spend their limited funds on other places, like on the Israeli spike (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6843&highlight=israeli+spike) ;) :D




BTW I've heard that software in exported American military equipment (F16s too) has installed specific 'bugs'. When client want to use this equipment against US, or US interests, Washington sends a signal, and bugs destroy software in airplanes, tanks, AA systems, and other military computers. Thats why UAE and Israel are writing their own software for their F16s.

I know that Israel writes all its own software for its jets, though I am not sure about the UAE.

I haven’t seen anywhere where that was mentioned.

From what I have read, the UAE simply purchased these planes and even financed the U.S. R&D for the F16 version that they have but nowhere did I read where they themselves have written any of their own software for it.

I am not ruling it out, simply I haven’t seen anywhere where that was the case.


As for why Israel wrote its own software, what you say is interesting indeed, though there are a lot more reasons other then that as to why Israel wrote its own software on its jets that it has.

Shalom :D

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

I know that Israel writes all its own software for its jets, though I am not sure about the UAE.

I haven?t seen anywhere where that was mentioned.

From what I have read, the UAE simply purchased these planes and even financed the U.S. R&D for the F16 version that they have but nowhere did I read where they themselves have written any of their own software for it.

I updated my info. Yep, you're right :D
Lockheed will develop new software for F16E



As for why Israel wrote its own software, what you say is interesting indeed, though there are a lot more reasons other then that as to why Israel wrote its own software on its jets that it has.

I know. But only Israel and UAE have different (than standard US) soft in their F16s (I'm not sure about modernized F16A-MLUs used by Western European countries).

It's always better to do something by yourself than just buy it :D

[REMOV]

http://www.plfoto.com/zdjecia/262362.jpg
http://www.plfoto.com/zdjecia/260920.jpg
http://www.plfoto.com/zdjecia/259305.jpg

[Lysander]

Cool pictures. What is the significance of the emblem and banner across the tail of the mig in the first picture (Red 115)?

Also, I read somewhere that Polish Mig 29 aircraft were sent to Israel. I think that it was during the 90's (can't remember exactly when). Does anyone know if this is ture and if so what was the purpose of the Migs being sent to Israel?

[Sorbas2000]

Zorba please don't talk about the state of the Bulgarian Air Force. It needs money.. Ol' rusty Mig21 are still the base..Mig29 didn't finished the "UPGRADE" (IFF and TACAN). BTW that is not upgrade... SNIPER is UPGRADE.

What do you mean? BTW, my name is Sorbas, not Zorba.

You mean same old rusty MiG-21 as Poland use? :bash:

IFF and TACAN are being integrated yet into 6 MiG-21bis and 8 Su-22M4. Modernization of MiG-29 used to be overhouled by MiG and avionics (MFD, HUD, MMC, IFF, GPS, TACAN, HOTAS, communications, etc.) by Thales, but hasn't started yet due to problems with MiG.

Now, after some problems with the russian partner, possibly BAE Systems will modernize 36 Mi-17 and Mi-24 for 150 million EUR and 20 MiG-29 for 60 million EUR.

Some weeks ago, army staff was to sell all 21 MiG-29 and to buy 20 new F/A-18. But it was decided, to go ahead with modernization of 20 MiG-29 and to use tham as the cheapest way until 2010.

BTW, what's about Polish MiG-29 modernization. Is there any modernization, or just TACAN, comm and radios? How about glass cockpit, modern MMC, etc.? No, nothing? But don't be sad: in 5-10 years there will maybe come your ordered F-16C! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Until then, good luck with your MiG-21 (unmodernized) and MiG-29 (un-modernized).

[perdurabo]

Cool pictures. What is the significance of the emblem and banner across the tail of the mig in the first picture (Red 115)?

Also, I read somewhere that Polish Mig 29 aircraft were sent to Israel. I think that it was during the 90's (can't remember exactly when). Does anyone know if this is ture and if so what was the purpose of the Migs being sent to Israel?
this banner is prabably "to make bird prretier" ;-) and the emblem can be squadron emblem and/or pilots own emblem... :)

[Marmot1]

Yeah emblem is a quadron logo AFAIK it is syren
yes they were send to israel so the israelis had oportunity to practice some simulated dogfight and to examine it capabilities...

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

No, the emblem on the 115 in an emblem of French 1/2 Escadron de Chasse "Cigogne", 2eme EC (2nd fighter squadron) from Dijon.
It was painted in 1995, when 1PLM & 2EC had joint excersise in Poland.

[Lysander]

Yeah emblem is a quadron logo AFAIK it is syren
yes they were send to israel so the israelis had oportunity to practice some simulated dogfight and to examine it capabilities...

Anyone know what the outcome of the tests were? How did the Mig 29 do against the Israeli aircraft? How did the Polish pilots do against the Israeli pilots?

[Marmot1]

Yeah emblem is a quadron logo AFAIK it is syren
yes they were send to israel so the israelis had oportunity to practice some simulated dogfight and to examine it capabilities...

Anyone know what the outcome of the tests were? How did the Mig 29 do against the Israeli aircraft? How did the Polish pilots do against the Israeli pilots?

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/gwtw10.jpg

Polish AF MiG-29 during a flight-test in Israel, in the mid-1990s. (Source unknown, via Tom Cooper)

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/gwtw09.jpg

In the late 1980s the Combat Core Certification Professionals Company acquired a number of MiG-15s and MiG-17s from China and Poland. The aircraft were employed in a "mobile threat test" at Kritland AFB. At the time the Pentagon's Office of Operational Test and Evaluation intended to acquire enough equipment to simulate two Soviet air defense regiments!

1988 and 1989 was an especially successfull year for western intelligence services when it came to purchase examples of Soviet technology. In July 1988 two Syrian pilots defected with their MiG-29s to Turkey. Already in April 1989 another disaffected Syrian pilot flew his MiG-23ML to Turkey as well; only a month later A. Zuyev, a Soviet MiG-29-pilot, defected with his plane - after an exchange of gunfire with a sentry at his base - to Turkey, and in October, the Syrian defector Abdel Bassem landed his MiG-23ML in Israel, again revealing most secrets about the main Soviet-delivered fighter-type of Arab air forces. Meanwhile, the USA were able to acquire a number of MiG-15 and J-5s (Chinese copy of MiG-17) from China, and then also purchased a number of additional examples from Poland. Also, in 1995, Israelis loaned two MiG-29s from the Polish AF for test and evaluation, while during the early and mid-1990s a number of Western pilots has got an opportunity to fly MiG-29s and Su-27s in Hungary and the Ukraine, respectively.
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_371.shtml

[IDFM203]

How did the Polish pilots do against the Israeli pilots? Well how do you think they did ;) :lol: (if indeed there were any polish pilots in them)

Anyways from Marmot1 posting I am not sure any polish pilots were sent.

The polish migs were sent but that was it.

To make clear I am not familiar with any of this specifically, it is just the way I read it from his postings, though by all means, correct me if I got it wrong.


P.S. While perhaps Israel loaned them for evaluation and all that, I assume also they were used to further Israeli expertise so as to enable it to come up with good upgrade capabilities and upgrade packages to sell and export to…..well you know ;)

Shalom :D

[Lysander]

Yeah emblem is a quadron logo AFAIK it is syren
yes they were send to israel so the israelis had oportunity to practice some simulated dogfight and to examine it capabilities...

Anyone know what the outcome of the tests were? How did the Mig 29 do against the Israeli aircraft? How did the Polish pilots do against the Israeli pilots?

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/gwtw10.jpg

Polish AF MiG-29 during a flight-test in Israel, in the mid-1990s. (Source unknown, via Tom Cooper)

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/gwtw09.jpg

In the late 1980s the Combat Core Certification Professionals Company acquired a number of MiG-15s and MiG-17s from China and Poland. The aircraft were employed in a "mobile threat test" at Kritland AFB. At the time the Pentagon's Office of Operational Test and Evaluation intended to acquire enough equipment to simulate two Soviet air defense regiments!

1988 and 1989 was an especially successfull year for western intelligence services when it came to purchase examples of Soviet technology. In July 1988 two Syrian pilots defected with their MiG-29s to Turkey. Already in April 1989 another disaffected Syrian pilot flew his MiG-23ML to Turkey as well; only a month later A. Zuyev, a Soviet MiG-29-pilot, defected with his plane - after an exchange of gunfire with a sentry at his base - to Turkey, and in October, the Syrian defector Abdel Bassem landed his MiG-23ML in Israel, again revealing most secrets about the main Soviet-delivered fighter-type of Arab air forces. Meanwhile, the USA were able to acquire a number of MiG-15 and J-5s (Chinese copy of MiG-17) from China, and then also purchased a number of additional examples from Poland. Also, in 1995, Israelis loaned two MiG-29s from the Polish AF for test and evaluation, while during the early and mid-1990s a number of Western pilots has got an opportunity to fly MiG-29s and Su-27s in Hungary and the Ukraine, respectively.
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_371.shtml

The way that thesecond Mig #406 is positioned in front of the stairs, it looks as if it has a re-fueling probe.

[perdurabo]

How did the Polish pilots do against the Israeli pilots? Well how do you think they did ;) :lol: (if indeed there were any polish pilots in them)

Anyways from Marmot1 posting I am not sure any polish pilots were sent.

The polish migs were sent but that was it.

To make clear I am not familiar with any of this specifically, it is just the way I read it from his postings, though by all means, correct me if I got it wrong.


P.S. While perhaps Israel loaned them for evaluation and all that, I assume also they were used to further Israeli expertise so as to enable it to come up with good upgrade capabilities and upgrade packages to sell and export to…..well you know ;)

Shalom :D
Hey i don't wan't to argue with you but our pilos are great too i understand that you are proud of your country (like me of mine) but you can't judge like that. (BTW where are Izraeli pilots in flying contests? :> you know from ~20 yrs Poland is leader of precision flying, and our guys(and girls) from glider aerobatics are top10...)

[tony6]

IDFM:
I don't want to spoil Your good mood but I heard that our pilots did great in Israel (especially in close dog-fights).

[Sorbas2000]

How did the Polish pilots do against the Israeli pilots? Well how do you think they did ;) :lol: (if indeed there were any polish pilots in them)

Anyways from Marmot1 posting I am not sure any polish pilots were sent.

The polish migs were sent but that was it.

To make clear I am not familiar with any of this specifically, it is just the way I read it from his postings, though by all means, correct me if I got it wrong.


P.S. While perhaps Israel loaned them for evaluation and all that, I assume also they were used to further Israeli expertise so as to enable it to come up with good upgrade capabilities and upgrade packages to sell and export to…..well you know ;)

Shalom :D
Hey i don't wan't to argue with you but our pilos are great too i understand that you are proud of your country (like me of mine) but you can't judge like that. (BTW where are Izraeli pilots in flying contests? :> you know from ~20 yrs Poland is leader of precision flying, and our guys(and girls) from glider aerobatics are top10...)

Come on dude, you can not compare polish pilots with israeli or u.s. fighter pilots. how many flying hours does a plosh pilot have: 50, 60 or even 80? compare it with israel and america...no chance.

i know from the polish posts in this forum, that poland has the second strongest army behind u.s., but sorry not as good as israle and u.s. concerning pilots! :cantbeli:

[IDFM203]

How did the Polish pilots do against the Israeli pilots? Well how do you think they did ;) :lol: (if indeed there were any polish pilots in them)

Anyways from Marmot1 posting I am not sure any polish pilots were sent.

The polish migs were sent but that was it.

To make clear I am not familiar with any of this specifically, it is just the way I read it from his postings, though by all means, correct me if I got it wrong.


P.S. While perhaps Israel loaned them for evaluation and all that, I assume also they were used to further Israeli expertise so as to enable it to come up with good upgrade capabilities and upgrade packages to sell and export to…..well you know ;)

Shalom :D
Hey i don't wan't to argue with you but our pilos are great too i understand that you are proud of your country (like me of mine) but you can't judge like that. (BTW where are Izraeli pilots in flying contests? :> you know from ~20 yrs Poland is leader of precision flying, and our guys(and girls) from glider aerobatics are top10...) Hey why are you so defensive, I didn’t say or judge anything, I simply asked ;)

My hats off to you guys, there you have it.

I personally think that IAF pilots are deservingly the best in the world (and I have a lot more to base that on then just pure nationalism) though that doesn’t mean I don’t have any respect for other nations pilots. I am sure you guys are very good as well.

As for flying contests, well unlike others, we unfortunately don’t have the time to have those fun flying contests; Israeli pilots are constantly engaged in real world combat training or actually in combat. I guess you can judge for yourself based on the high level of training and high selection process (where there is over a 90 percent drop out rate which ensures only the very best make it) and high amount of flying training, combat experience, mock dogfights against U.S. British German air forces (where the IAF decisively won each one…. though the British one I cant find the link to that so am not sure they had any mock battles though I recall reading it someplace else), but other then that, I guess being that the IAF hasn’t participated in many flying contests (or any glider aerobatics contests ;) ), I guess they must not be as good as I say they are ;)

Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

Wow and the poles are out in force now ;) :D

Ok………



IDFM:
I don't want to spoil Your good mood but I heard that our pilots did great in Israel (especially in close dog-fights).hehe :lol:

(You can try but on this I dont think my mood can be spolied ;) )

Wow my question must have lit a fuse under some polish asses ;) :roll:

gees :cantbeli:

Hey if you guys did great then that’s fine.

btw can you tell me how they did and provide me a link to it

Also like I said before I would love to see a link on the fact that there were any mock battles between polish pilots and Israeli ones.


P.S. wow I cant believe I am saying this....nice post Sorbas2000 :D

[perdurabo]

Come on dude, you can not compare polish pilots with israeli or u.s. fighter pilots. how many flying hours does a plosh pilot have: 50, 60 or even 80? compare it with israel and america...no chance.

i know from the polish posts in this forum, that poland has the second strongest army behind u.s., but sorry not as good as israle and u.s. concerning pilots! :cantbeli:

rofl sorbas you know maybe Poland isn't paradisenow but our pilots spend at least 120h in air it's NATO standard and they can't go lower, give our pilots planes comparable with us and izraeli the we can compare(so you have to wait 1-3yrs for our new F16 coming in line) :)


Hey why are you so defensive, I didn’t say or judge anything, I simply asked

My hats off to you guys, there you have it.

I personally think that IAF pilots are deservingly the best in the world (and I have a lot more to base that on then just pure nationalism) though that doesn’t mean I don’t have any respect for other nations pilots. I am sure you guys are very good as well.

As for flying contests, well unlike others, we unfortunately don’t have the time to have those fun flying contests; Israeli pilots are constantly engaged in real world combat training or actually in combat. I guess you can judge for yourself based on the high level of training and high selection process (where there is over a 90 percent drop out rate which ensures only the very best make it) and high amount of flying training, combat experience, mock dogfights against U.S. British German air forces (where the IAF decisively won each one…. though the British one I cant find the link to that so am not sure they had any mock battles though I recall reading it someplace else), but other then that, I guess being that the IAF hasn’t participated in many flying contests (or any glider aerobatics contests ), I guess they must not be as good as I say they are

Shalom
:) just that smileys afther your words i took it as irony :) if i'm mistake sorry :)
and about contest i talked about civilian pilots :) (our mili. pilots dosen't have time for contests too :) )
and i think our drop rate is preaty high too because they take to flying shool very litle ppl and not every year but onece 2-3 yrs and we have almoust 40mln ppl in Poland... (until last year even to be civilian glider pilot was very hard so f**** high standards when i tried first time i didn't passed 1test so i was out of flying :/ while in rest of EU tests like that take only jet pilots:/)
Peace to you too i hope it won't change into some kind of flame war because we are on the same side :)
[/quote]

[Herrmannek]

I personally think that IAF pilots are deservingly the best in the world (and I have a lot more to base that on then just pure nationalism) though that doesn’t mean I don’t have any respect for other nations pilots. I am sure you guys are very good as well.
Probably because most of them has much polish blood circulating in their vains ;)... and if you don't know that most of Poles has have also jewish blood in their vains ... :hug:

[Javehn]

Yea !! Flame war !! Where do i sign in ?
Wait until tommorow guys , i will find some compromising info.
P.S : Polish army rocks . Mig 29 is kick ass . And i hate airforce stuff . For pussies :lol: . We had a squadron of Mig 29 6 years ago in Israel , i think . But i don't understand or interested much in those things.

[IDFM203]

Well in truth yes my smiley were a little on the ironic side however I didn’t say or dudge your air force negatively or anything like that.

You and your fellow countryman took it very defensively when though my tone was a bit ironic; it was not hostile or meant to put down your air force.

Listen I simply believe that IAF pilots are the best in the world (and again that is not on pure nationalism) and that is it….this is not a polish Vs. Israel thing nor do I really care for it to make it into one.

Listen like I have said in my response to you, I do in fact believe that IAF pilots are the best (and yes I probably think that if there were a dogfight between your pilots and ours, we won) though that doesn’t mean I don’t have respect for other nations pilots. I do and although other then a general idea, I don’t know much about your air force or its combat training (or amount of training hours), if you say they are good then I believe you and my respect goes out to your pilots.

Yes we are on the same team especially with all the Israeli products (and upgrades ;) ) that you guys have now :D


BTW did you eventually get your license?



I personally think that IAF pilots are deservingly the best in the world (and I have a lot more to base that on then just pure nationalism) though that doesn’t mean I don’t have any respect for other nations pilots. I am sure you guys are very good as well.
Probably because most of them has much polish blood circulating in their vains ;)... You might be right on some of them, and for sure about me ;) (though not alot)



Shalom to you :D

[mack pl]

Szalom alehem :) I guess all Poles belive that polish pilots are the best on the world,because we know history of polish pilots-WW II Battle of England for example.So, we still belive that ours boys are the best.I guess they are one of the best in the world. BTW when israelis pilots fight last time against enemy pilots?Szalom :)

[Herrmannek]

You might be right on some of them, and for sure about me ;) (though not alot)

We can solve that problem, send here few nice israeli girls, and we will send you few polish ones...

[Javehn]

Szalom alehem :) I guess all Poles belive that polish pilots are the best on the world,because we know history of polish pilots-WW II Battle of England for example.So, we still belive that ours boys are the best.I guess they are one of the best in the world. BTW when israelis pilots fight last time against enemy pilots?Szalom :)

Last known time to me was in 27 Jan 1996 , and almost ended with 2 Ruski Su-27k (or Su-33) from "Admiral Kuznetsov" deep into the sea . Who plays with fire , get's burned . But that wasn't really a fight .Well , it wasn't really a dogfight , just couple of Su really trying to violate Israeli air space , and almost became into a firefight .

[mack pl]

I want know when was last REAL fight(against who-Syria,Egypt or something).Szalom :)

[Javehn]

In 1982 was the last biggest air fight , in Bekaa valey , against Syrian air force . The score was 82 to nothing , or something like that . Well , actually Syrians did managed to get down several unmaned planes . Now that's an achievment from Syrian AF.

Your turn now :)
Do svidanya .

[mack pl]

My turn,hmm, if you mean when Poles fight last time-WW II(many years ago),hahaa.BTW Germans are better pilots than Arabs ;)

[Javehn]

Better then Russian pilots in Egypt ? ;) Or Russian pilots in 1996 ? (well , the last one perhaps need no answer ) . Or Royal Airforce pilots , back in days when we only started ?
P.S : Again , Polan Army is the kick ass. :)

[mack pl]

My father was in Air force in 70's(not the pilot) and he havent got good opinion about russians pilots ;)BTW not Polan, but Polish Army ;) Szalom Alehem :)

[IDFM203]

First shalom to you as well :D


I guess all Poles belive that polish pilots are the best on the world,because we know history of polish pilots-WW II Battle of England for example. we still belive that ours boys are the best.I guess they are one of the best in the world. BTW when israelis pilots fight last time against enemy pilots?Szalom :) A lot more recent then ww2, that’s for sure ;)

Listen its stupid to get into this (Hell I guess anything can be put forth on the net ;) …oh well :roll: )

I have gone over this before in more detail here (the first post of mine on this page especially the four points I point out) (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7763&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=uae+pilots&start=80), now if the polish air force can top that, then I guess you have some merit ;)

Come back to me with an argument like that other then just your nationalism talking (Like I said before, I don’t merely state my statements based on nationalism as it seems you are doing)


Again, Shalom to you :D

[Javehn]

Well , USSR had many branches including planes . And some of them are better , some of them just sucks . Russkies wouldn't sent they ****y pilots overseas .
Which branch your father served ?

[IDFM203]

My turn,hmm, if you mean when Poles fight last time-WW II(many years ago),hahaa.BTW Germans are better pilots than Arabs ;)Ok and just this year IAF pilots dominated german ones in mock battles :D

We had a thread about it a while back.

Shalom :D

[mack pl]

Yeah, im nationalist ;) So, i cannot give you arguments about Polish power :( Szalom :)

[mack pl]

My father was technic(im not sure is that corect word).I mean,his job was to give fuel and ammo to plain.Something like that.BTW i could agree-Israel have the best pilots on the world,ex equo with Poland ;)

[Javehn]

My father was technic(im not sure is that corect word).I mean,his job was to give fuel and ammo to plain.Something like that.

Yes , but what branch of RKKA ? There is strategic air force , there is navy airforce , there is Air defence airplanes , there is Airforce offcorse , ground troops air support planes . And offcorse not all of them can be packed with the same quality of pilots . Some better , some just sucks .
Which one of them your father was technicion in ?

[mack pl]

Air defence airplains-Mig21. The 39th Fighter Regiment.Szalom :)

[REMOV]

sorbas you know maybe Poland isn't paradisenow but our pilots spend at least 120h in air it's NATO standard and they can't go lower, give our pilots planes comparable with us and izraeli the we can compareI tell you in secrect that Polish fighter pilots says that Israeli are better trainig and have more battle experience than everybody else. And yes, they are convinced that Israelis are even better than American. They trained with both.

[mack pl]

OK Israelis are the best.But who is second???? ;)

[Javehn]

U.S. Pilots ? More money , more fuel , more time in the air , more experience. :| I talled you i don't have any idea about Airforce stuff . :oops:
Also , they have the latest combat experience .Shooting down farmers also counts ;)

[REMOV]

Anyone know what the outcome of the tests were? How did the Mig 29 do against the Israeli aircraft? How did the Polish pilots do against the Israeli pilots?No, there wern't any simulated fights between Polish and Israeli fighters. And what they did there... well, it still a secret ;)

http://kfir.hobbyvista.com/mig-29/mig29.gif
One of the MiGs taxis out in Israel.
http://kfir.hobbyvista.com/mig-29/MiG-29.jpg
One of the MiGs in flight over Israel.
http://kfir.hobbyvista.com/mig-29/tail.jpg
Note AA-11 Archer under the port wing of the nearest aircraft and FTC logo on the tail of the far MiG.

Three of Polish MiG-29 were deployed to Israel during April/May 1997 for weapons and tactics evaluation with the IDF/AF, receiving temporary squadron markings on the fin. The evaluation was reportedly conducted over a two-week period and pitted the MiG-29, with helmet-mounted sight and IRST, against the F-16.

[REMOV]

U.S. Pilots ? More money , more fuel , more time in the air , more experience. :|It is just an opinon, nothing else. But the training is always connected with a money, so...

[perdurabo]

hey lets wait until some one invade us (better hurry up in few years we will have few new planes..) and then we can make bodycount contest with our jewish friends... p-)

[tony6]

Well MiG-29s pilots (1st ELT) are doing about 120 hours now and they train with pilots from different countries. I think they're not bad.

[HELEX]

@IDFM203


Ok and just this year IAF pilots dominated german ones in mock battles

Just curious, F-16 or F-15 vs. F-4 or MIG-29?

Btw. how good is the new F-16I?

[S'13]

Just curious, F-16 or F-15 vs. F-4 or MIG-29?

Luftwaffe pilots: MiG-29 Fulcrum

IAF pilots: F-15 Eagle.

[IDFM203]

First of all, good postings REMOV (as usual) :D

Besides the Pilots air superiority issue, I thought I had read correctly about the migs and they’re not being any Israeli/polish Mock dogfights, (but rather simply some polish migs in Israel for tests and evaluation). Thanks for confirming the way I read it.

Also great find on the pics :D




@IDFM203


Ok and just this year IAF pilots dominated german ones in mock battles

Just curious, F-16 or F-15 vs. F-4 or MIG-29?

Btw. how good is the new F-16I?

From a past Thread. (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3954&highlight=german+air+force) (there are plenty of pics there on this exercise)


Israeli air force beats German pilots in 'dogfight' exercise

The Associated Press Sep. 22, 2003
Israeli air force pilots handily beat their German counterparts in "dogfights" in the first ever air force exercise between the two countries, an Israeli military official said Monday.

The Israeli F-15 pilots, aided by special technology that Israel does not share or sell to other countries, beat the Germans by more than 100 "hits," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. In the past, Israel has beaten American air force pilots by similar margins, the officials added.

Israel purchases U.S. warplanes without battle technology, installing its own locally made systems into the aircraft.

The exercise was conducted over the past two weeks in the skies of Sardinia in Italy.

Germany is considered one of Israel's closest defense allies. Recently, Germany sold for a symbolic fee three advanced "Dolphin" submarines to Israel.

Israel's air force has held exercises with the United States and Turkey recently.

Shalom :D

[HELEX]

Maybe next time against Eurofighter it will be a bit more demanding :)

[IDFM203]

Maybe next time against Eurofighter it will be a bit more demanding :)hmm perhaps (though I doubt it ;) ) anyways you would need to be a lot more demanding to reverse what happened ;)

Anyways by the time you get the Eurofighter (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/lavi/Lavi.html) (I hope I get the right link there for I get confused sometimes ;) ), we will have the F-35 :D...though even not I still will be confident with the IAF pilots in a F-15I, F-16I, Phantom's etc..;)

Shalom :D

[S'13]

Maybe next time against Eurofighter it will be a bit more demanding :)

I think the 'Sufa' (F-16i) and the 'Ra'am' (F-15i) can already give the European pilots a hard time ;)

[Adri]

in air to air battles it is not the planes wich decides the win but the pilot.
if two pilots are equal then it is the plane.

ofcours if a ME109 is up against a F-22...the don't count your money on the 109, but if it is a MIG-29 (it is the plane with most negative stories) vs a F-22 with an superb pilot in the MIG-29 then it is not 100% certain that the F-22 will win (but you should putt your money on it ;) )
:::the plane is not the brain:::

air - air battles is more tactic then air - ground, indeed it is very much tactic, but still a good plane gives you an advantage.

[Adri]

[quote=HELEX]Eurofighter (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/lavi/Lavi.html)

nope that is the Israeli Lavi wich is not a new plane but still a good one, it never enterd service.


this is the Eurofigther:
http://www.eurofighter.com/

[IDFM203]

[quote=HELEX]Eurofighter (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/lavi/Lavi.html)

nope that is the Israeli Lavi wich is not a new plane but still a good one, it never enterd service.


this is the Eurofigther:
http://www.eurofighter.com/hehe :D yes believe me I know all this. :D

I was just having a little fun due to the similar (not exact) design features of the eurofighter to the much older Lavi ;) (which three were built but due to a lack of funds and U.S. fares of competition to its own jets in the world export market, the Israeli program was cancelled...though not at a total loss for the program lived on with avionics and electronics that Israel learnt from the program which it has incorporated into its F serious of planes)

Shalom :D

[Javehn]

[quote=HELEX]Eurofighter (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/lavi/Lavi.html)

nope that is the Israeli Lavi wich is not a new plane but still a good one, it never enterd service.


this is the Eurofigther:
http://www.eurofighter.com/


Sarcasm is a lately human invention , used in different situation asside with something called : "Humor" . Indeed ,some people never heard about it . ;)

[Adri]

Maybe next time against Eurofighter it will be a bit more demanding :)

I think the 'Sufa' (F-16i) and the 'Ra'am' (F-15i) can already give the European pilots a hard time ;)

well I gess you are talking about the Eurofighter (and not all of the EU countries) then cause:

USA
England
Italy
Netherlands
Turkey
Canada
Denmark
Norway
Australia
Israel


(taken from Lockheed's netpage, but added Israel cause they wasn't on the list there but I know they will gett the plane)

as you see, 6 out of 10 countries (turkey is counted in) which is going to get the F-35 is from Europe.


and the Sweden will (hopfully) make the JAS-39 "grippen" which is very equal to the Eurofighter (looks the same atleast)

[Adri]

[quote=HELEX]Eurofighter (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/lavi/Lavi.html)

nope that is the Israeli Lavi wich is not a new plane but still a good one, it never enterd service.


this is the Eurofigther:
http://www.eurofighter.com/


Sarcasm is a lately human invention , used in different situation asside with something called : "Humor" . Indeed ,some people never heard about it . ;)

yeye :lol:
but look at the two planes, the Lavi have front wings (or what it is called) who are aimed up and the Eurofighter have aimed it's front wings down ?
anyone who is capable to tell if this gives an advantage ?

[S'13]

in air to air battles it is not the planes wich decides the win but the pilot.
if two pilots are equal then it is the plane.

Well I'm sure it's already clear what we think of our pilots... :D

And if you can't take our word for it then look at this story:
http://www.usrcjc.org/photogallery/wingless_landing.htm

[S'13]

Maybe next time against Eurofighter it will be a bit more demanding :)

I think the 'Sufa' (F-16i) and the 'Ra'am' (F-15i) can already give the European pilots a hard time ;)

well I gess you are talking about the Eurofighter (and not all of the EU countries) then cause:

USA
England
Italy
Netherlands
Turkey
Canada
Denmark
Norway
Australia
Israel


(taken from Lockheed's netpage, but added Israel cause they wasn't on the list there but I know they will gett the plane)

as you see, 6 out of 10 countries (turkey is counted in) which is going to get the F-35 is from Europe.


and the Sweden will (hopfully) make the JAS-39 "grippen" which is very equal to the Eurofighter (looks the same atleast)

Where did I mention the F-35 in my post? :|

[Javehn]

Yes , Typhoon have small thing to do with Lavi . It's came from some RAF AST-496 (don't ask me , don't know **** about it ). Lavi is reincarnated in Jianji - 10 aircraft .

[Adri]

in air to air battles it is not the planes wich decides the win but the pilot.
if two pilots are equal then it is the plane.

Well I'm sure it's already clear what we think of our pilots... :D

And if you can't take our word for it then look at this story:
http://www.usrcjc.org/photogallery/wingless_landing.htm

I didn't doubt your pilots, I have heard a lot good about them but I saw that there was some "my plane is better then yours" so that is why I posted that.

btw, nice landing.
but wasn't it an American C-5 who landed without one wing ?
(landing without one wing is difficult in a fighter...and then in a large transport plane :lol: )


and S'13 , I quoted wrong post :oops: it was IDFM203's post I should had quoted :lol:

[S'13]

I didn't doubt your pilots, I have heard a lot good about them but I saw that there was some "my plane is better then yours" so that is why I posted that.

I see what you mean.



but wasn't it an American C-5 who landed without one wing ?
(landing without one wing is difficult in a fighter...and then in a large transport plane )

Never heard of it but if true it must be one hell of a story.
Do you have a link by any chance?



and S'13 , I quoted wrong post it was IDFM203's post I should had quoted

Never mind p-)

And about the F-35, well maybe the Europeans well get it too, but we will probably add some parts like we always do ;)

[Adri]

but wasn't it an American C-5 who landed without one wing ?
(landing without one wing is difficult in a fighter...and then in a large transport plane )

Never heard of it but if true it must be one hell of a story.
Do you have a link by any chance?



and S'13 , I quoted wrong post it was IDFM203's post I should had quoted

Never mind p-)

And about the F-35, well maybe the Europeans well get it too, but we will probably add some parts like we always do ;)

no can't find if, but it was over at the forums at ubisoft (the lomac forums) and I don't think it was a C-5 but a C-17 (if I remember correctly)

and for that F-35:
it is an "new F-16" (sort of, if will take it's role) and allmost every country have added parts to their F-16 so you will surly not be alone with a fixsed F-35 ;)

but that is if that plane need's new parts, I don't think it needs...it have every thing ! a wonderfull plane !

[HELEX]

Anyways by the time you get the Eurofighter (I hope I get the right link there for I get confused sometimes ), we will have the F-35

Eurofighter is in production, so you can compare it to the F16I if you like..... :roll:

[S'13]

and for that F-35:
it is an "new F-16" (sort of, if will take it's role) and allmost every country have added parts to their F-16 so you will surly not be alone with a fixsed F-35 ;)

Yes, but I'm not just talking about any parts! I'm talking about Israeli parts!!
Just kidding... ;)


but that is if that plane need's new parts, I don't think it needs...it have every thing ! a wonderfull plane

There's always something to add or improve and you can bet on everything you have that we will find ways to improve it :D

[IDFM203]

and S'13 , I quoted wrong post :oops: it was IDFM203's post I should had quoted :lol:Well if you mean my post, believe me I wasn’t making anything into a plane vs plane, now pilot skill Vs. pilot skill, is what I was doing ;) :D (as I felt those results and other facts have proven)


Anyways I just brought in the F-35 comment to counter the comment of the eurofighter and not to say one plane was better then the other but to kind of get the plane issue out of the way as if they are equal (they might not be but my point was, hey if you get a better plane we will too and it negates the plane as the factor) and we are still back to pilot skills and with that, well we see who has the edge ;)

Shalom :D