Indian jets battle US F-15s in mock aerial dogfight

[budanski]

Indian jets battle US F-15s in mock aerial dogfight
Agence France Presse (AFP) (http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13402284)

American F-15 fighter planes and Indian jets fought a mock battle over this central Indian city Wednesday as the curtain fell on the first-ever joint aerial exercises between the two nations who were on opposite sides during the Cold War.

The 10-day war games, codenamed "Cope India 2004", signalled a new level of military cooperation between India and the United States, its largest trading partner.

The Indian Air Force (IAF), the world's fourth largest, said it was a close match for the United States Air Force (USAF).

"The USAF is very advanced but at a tactical level we are a flying match. In air-to-air and in beyond-visual-range combat, however, the Americans have lots of experience and so we are learning from them," said IAF Air Marshal Ajit Bhavnani in Gwalior.

"In the same way they are learning from us because we have completely different equipment," Bhavnani said, declining to give the results of the dogfight in which the four F-15s were "defenders" and IAF's Russian-built Sukhoi-30s and French Mirage-2000 were the attackers.

Colonel Greg Neubeck, team leader of the F-15 sqaudron, appeared satisfied.

"We leave here with a good idea how each other's air forces operate. We consider IAF as very professional," the fighter pilot said as supersonic aircraft streaked across Gwalior.

Despite the bonhommie, the USAF did not bring its latest F-16 jets, which helped destroy Iraqi air defences during the Gulf War, and the IAF politely declined to display its newest acquisition, the Sukhoi-MKI multi-role combat jets.

The wargames, which covered an area from India's Gangetic plains to the rarified atmosphere of the Himalayas, had been gruelling, said IAF spokesman Group Captain S.B.P. Sinha.

"A number of missions have been flown during the exercise and the result has been very encouraging and rewarding," said Sinha.

"The aim of the exercise is to enhance mutual understanding of fighter operations of the IAF and the USAF and sets the basis for future co-operation between the two air forces."

India traditionally tilted toward Cold War ally Moscow, which still supplies 70 percent of its military hardware, but lately it has been strengthening its defence ties with the US.

They resumed joint military training in 2002 after Washington lifted sanctions imposed on India after New Delhi held nuclear tests in 1998.

Last October, the US and Indian navies held five days of joint manoeuvres in the Arabian Sea, a month after staging week-long joint exercises in the Ladakh region of the disputed Himalayan region of Kashmir, aimed at improving coordination between their special forces.

[oldsoak]

Opposite sides in the cold war ? I thought India was neutral during those times.

[cold0]

I'm just waiting some leaks about the F-15C (with AESE radar and the X 'winder) against the SU-30s..... :)

[army cadet_ngcsu]

I wonder what our true ally Pakistan thinks of us training with the Indians???

[Kitsune]

"true ally" ?! :lol:

[He219]

I've got a couple of pic's for today's picture thread of this ....
;)

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040225/capt.sge.nix70.250204130034.photo00.default-384x245.jpg

A USAF F-15 C fighter plane (centre) of the 19th Squadron escorts an Indian Air Force Mirage 2000 fighter plane as they cross the Himalayan Mountain Range over India during a joint Indo-US air exercise 'Cope India -04'(AFP/US Defence)

[obd]

True ally......are you mad or something. If ever there was an ally of convenience than Pakistan would be it. Pakistan is our true enemy and nothing else. Mushareff and his ISI nurtured the taliban and Mullah Omar and probably protect him now in hopes he can return to power. Pakistanis captured by the tens of thousands fighting US and Norther alliance in initial campaign. Still thousands flood into A'stan to kill Americans and Afghans!!!!! Pakistan is one of the great enemies of America. India SHOULD be one of our great freinds..............

[AFACadet]

I'm trying to figure out the reason why India didn't let the Su-30 MKIs get into the fight.


The USAF was bursting out of its seams in anticipation for 'fighting' them, but as the article said, it was India who didn't want to fly them against the Eagles.


I have no idea why this is. At first I thought it might be the USAF that didn't want to see how the Eagles faired against one of the newest fighters, but then that part about India shot that down. Even if the Eagles got their butt kicked each and every time, it was still in the interestes of the USAF to konw that... it would be yet another reason for the Raptor.


The only thing I can think of is either India didn't want to see how their brand new, pretty expensive, Su-30 MKIs faired against the Eagles, or they wanted to, but the Su-30 MKIs are still having their engine problems, or Russia didn't want to see how the MKIs did.

[obd]

Wonder why the Indians failed to mention who won hehehehe and also why the Americans failed to mention it too hehehehehe

although its possible Indians won, its also possible that I am the second coming of Jesus Christ and I have arrived just in time to see my own death in Mel Gibsons ¨Passion¨.........

[cold0]

I think that, now, the IAF ha two type of SU-30: the first batch of SU-30, delivered without the upgrade to the MKI standard and the new built MKI.
The latter, probrably, isn't yet operative.

Another issue is that Indians are very interested to try their fighters against the F-16, the main fighter of Pakistan (even if the Paks have only a limited numbers of old A-Bs Fighting Falcons).
So they are quite disappointed because the USAF does not bring thr F-16 at COPEI INDIA 2004.

Regards,

[AFACadet]

There are two versions of the Sus in India, the Su-30 and Su-30MKI. The Su-30 flew during the excercies, but the Su-30 MKI--one of the most advanced aircraft flying today--didn't. Both are operational as well, but the Su-30 MKI was have major maintianence problems about 6 months ago with the engines.

[cut]

I wonder what our true ally Pakistan thinks of us training with the Indians???

Pakistan and the US are just helping each other out despite their true feelings, far from true allies

[cold0]

the Su30 would be upgrated to the MKI standard, isn't it AFA?


Pakistan and the US are just helping each other out despite their true feelings, far from true allies

true!!!

[AFACadet]

the Su30 would be upgrated to the MKI standard, isn't it AFA?


I'm going to have to check on that. I don't know if all the Su-30s will be upgraded to Su-30 MKIs. The MKIs that India has right now were built in that configuration a few years back.

[usa320]

I think all the bull**** about the US and pakistan will be comming to an abrupt halt once bin laden gets bagged. Then we will either thank pakistan, or tell them to **** off...

[cut]

I think all the bull**** about the US and pakistan will be comming to an abrupt halt once bin laden gets bagged. Then we will either thank pakistan, or tell them to f*** off...

I vote thank them and then tell them to **** off

[AFACadet]

cold0,

I found the answer, yes, the Su-30s are currently planned to be upgraded to Su-30 MKI standards after all the MKIs are delivered from Russia.

[Operation Ivy]

Yey India and US are friends :hug:

[ArmedPacifist]

I really wish we knew the exact results of the dogfight.

[venture160]

hopefully we'll send some nice cruise missile salvos to pulverise their nuclear facilities that are giving nuclear technology to the evil half of the world, including terrorists.

[cold0]

I found the answer, yes, the Su-30s are currently planned to be upgraded to Su-30 MKI standards after all the MKIs are delivered from Russia.

thanks AFAcadet, just post any news about the mock doghfights, I really interest in the F-15/Su-30 confrontation after years of speculation.

[Kingpin]

I found the answer, yes, the Su-30s are currently planned to be upgraded to Su-30 MKI standards after all the MKIs are delivered from Russia.

thanks AFAcadet, just post any news about the mock doghfights, I really interest in the F-15/Su-30 confrontation after years of speculation.

It will not help anyway

If India lose we say they have weak pilots
If US lose you say you have old planes :) :) :)

Just another flame war :)

[cold0]

I'm no sure Kingpin. It's the first time we can see the F-15 vs SU-30 in action, and USAF (maybe even IAF) can obtain some useful infos about the Flanker (Eagle for IAF) performances.

It's not a question of flame-war, but a question of tactics and aircrafts.

[Kingpin]

You already met Russian Su-27 vs F-15. How much differences do you expect?
AFAIK that meeting won Su-27 (close dogfight).

Source: article about trip of Russian Su-27s to US on www.airwar.ru

[cold0]

I have read the article some time ago on a special of Airforce Montly.
Well, it wasn't a mock engagement nor in BVR neither in WVR. Simply one aircraft tried to stay at "enemy" sic o'clock while the other tried to manouvre.
The USAF said, officially, that the thing happened "accidentally" :D

Anyway the F-15/Su-30 now all have off-boresight IR missiles, and we can see some BVR engagements. It could be fun! :D

[cold0]

Indo-US Air Force exercise ends
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NDTV Correspondent

Wednesday, February 25, 2004 (Gwalior):

India and America today finished a joint Air Force exercise in Gwalior in, which the top pilots from the two countries matched their skills against each other.

While the all-powerful US Air Force had an easy run in Afghanistan and Iraq, the Indian top guns amazingly shot them out of the sky.

"They did very well, it's a very good group of pilots, a very good aircraft and overall I've been very impressed with the Indian Air Force," said Captain Dave Skalicky, US 19 Squadron.

Americans outflown

For the last ten days, five American F-15s have been faced off against Indian Sukhoi-30s, Mirage 2000s and MiG-21s in the skies above Gwalior.

NDTV has learned that the Indian flyers have out flown the Americans, right through the exercise.

On the first day all four American planes were shot down. Never once did the Indians come off second. [Thats the 4-1 "ratio" perhaps?]

Amongst the American flyers, there is clearly respect for the Indians.

"They performed very well. I think in most cases they were equal to us, superior in some aspects. So it was a very good learning experience for both sides. It was a very tough scenario on all days, the pilot skill levels were also equal a lot of times. It felt like we were fighting ourselves, when we were fighting the Indian Air Force guys," said Captain Vogel, US 19 Squadron.

[Kingpin]

I have read the article some time ago on a special of Airforce Montly.
Well, it wasn't a mock engagement nor in BVR neither in WVR. Simply one aircraft tried to stay at "enemy" sic o'clock while the other tried to manouvre.
The USAF said, officially, that the thing happened "accidentally" :D

Anyway the F-15/Su-30 now all have off-boresight IR missiles, and we can see some BVR engagements. It could be fun! :D

This "accidentally" happened twice :)

Anecdote for this theme:

Judge: Why you stabbed victim with knife?
Defendant: No, sir, he just accidentally fall upon the knife.
Judge: And he accidentaly repeated this six times?

[Kingpin]

NDTV has learned that the Indian flyers have out flown the Americans, right through the exercise.

On the first day all four American planes were shot down. Never once did the Indians come off second. [Thats the 4-1 "ratio" perhaps?]

Amongst the American flyers, there is clearly respect for the Indians.


What can i say. Nothing. woot woot woot

BTW Indian pilots used at most part ""russian tactics" wich proved to be useless in battle."(C)One rofl rofl rofl

[cold0]

Another tip...


Indian, US pilots share Gwalior skies, some tips

SAIKAT DATTA

GWALIOR, FEBRUARY 25: LT COL Mark Henkel of the USAF talks fondly about that day long ago when he took on his first MiG-29. Those were heady days — the Berlin Wall had fallen and the Unified German Air Force was growing ecstatic over the fresh batch of MiG-29s it had inherited. A USAF team rushed to the former German Democratic Republic to take a long look at the MiG-29. Henkel was there too, and he liked what he saw.

After years, he was trying to relive that day when his squadron, the Alaska-based F-15C aircraft, flew in to take on the IAF’s best at the ongoing 10-day joint Indo-US air exercise in Gwalior. Ask him about the SU-30K and Henkel says: ‘‘It’s a big aircraft.’’ He would know; the F-15 was known to be one of the biggest aircraft for a long time till the SU-30 arrived.

Over the weekend, USAF pilots convened an urgent meeting for a brainstorming session to work out the tactics to deal with the SU-30K. ‘‘It surprised them,’’ says an IAF pilot, adding: ‘‘I don’t think they were expecting that kind of performance’’.

Dave Skalicky would agree with him. He has flown over the Taj Mahal, seen the Himalayas and come back to Gwalior, several joint exercises later, with a new-found respect for his Indian counterparts. His colleagues have had a ‘‘few rides on the SU-30K and the MiG-21 Bison’’. About the much-talked about MiG-21, he says: ‘‘It’s very good and we were surprised with its new avionics’’. [ The Bison is a single seater! So these guys got a lot to play with! ]

On Wednesday morning, as four USAF 15C took to the skies to ‘‘defend’’ the Gwalior air base against ‘‘invading’’ IAF strike aircraft, both had a ‘‘mission’’ in hand. Forty minutes later, Gwalior was ‘‘bombed’’ by an IAF MiG-27 escorted by a fleet of SU-30Ks and Mirage-2000s.

The joint exercise, which ends on February 27, have given the IAF, starved of exposure for nearly three decades, an opportunity to pit its skills against the US Air Force’s. And while they size each other up in the skies, on the ground the USAF pilots are trying to get used to the spicy curry and take some time off to make a few quick trips to the bazaar and the historical monuments.


http://www.indianexpress.com/full_s...ontent_id=41868


Who says that russian tactics are useless?
Next time give our aicraft to capable pilots, not to the "libians, syrians, serbs, iraqis and so on" who didn't have any ideas how to use the "beautiful russian stuff"!!! :D

[Kingpin]

Man called "One" said this in one topic. I remember this ****head! :)

[cold0]

Come on, Kingpin, there's a little truth on this. During soviet era the russian didn't bother to much to train their allies (expecially arabs) in air warfare.

This has nothing to do with the quality russian pilots or aircrafts.

[stateofequilibrium]

I'd be interested though to see what the kill ratios were though. Whether the Americans were just swept from the skies, etc.. and at what range they engaged each other from.

Guess it's time for the US to start hone their dogfighting skills again.

[He219]

Guess it's time for the US to start hone their dogfighting skills again.
Just don't correlate the level of performance our Air Force pilots demonstrated with the abilities of our NAVY Pilots, stateofequilibrium ....

;)

[cold0]

I will wait to judge the results of COPE INDIA 04. And remember that losing in exercise it's not so bad; the pilots can check what work and what doesn't work and judge the "enemy" tactics and aircrafts perfomances.

It's far worse go to war overconfident of their abilities and understiming the enemy.

Anyway, the USAF could find the money for the F/A-22 soon.....

[stateofequilibrium]

Guess it's time for the US to start hone their dogfighting skills again.
Just don't correlate the level of performance our Air Force pilots demonstrated with the abilities of our NAVY Pilots, stateofequilibrium ....

;)

Why, are the Navy pilots THAT bad :lol: j/p.

[oldsoak]

Its good they got beat, because its a good way to learn. They'll go away, devise new tactics and come back for a re match. Be good to see what happens then.