7,92mm assault rifle StG44 in the Iraq

[REMOV]

http://www.hunt101.com/img/085563.JPG

(George Chlebowski) Captured a WWII German MP44 yesterday also with no mag or ammo.

Recieved a second 44 this morning with mag from one of the teams out west. Haven't seen it yet but also found out another team up north as a third. Got a email from a trooper also up north with some 200 rounds of ammo. Working a linkup. If we do you can bet there be a seperate post on it.
http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Rifles/George%20MP44%20blacked%20out.jpg
Here Saddam's MP44. Persian Mauser 98 below

http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Rifles/George%20firing%20MP44%20blacked%20out.jpg
Here I'm firing a 2-3 round burst off. Yes that's a M1911A1 in the holster.

http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Rifles/M98%20und%20MP44%20mit%20Patr%20Named.jpg
Persian Mauser 98 and MP44 with their cartridges

Today was finally the day. We ended up shooting 75 of the 90 rounds of the 7.92x33 Kurz out of two MP44s. Again only have one magazine for the two. The gun I'm shooting was found inside of one of Saddam's palace's here in Baghdad and is in excellent shape for being 60 years old. The second is in lesser shape but both fired flawessly. One failure to fire (good firing pin hit, fired second time). Ammo was East German manufactured in 1961 and was said to have been found in Uday's palace. Seems they liked MP44 too. Very controlable when firing 2-3 round bursts. Cyclic rate is 500rpm and I was even able to fire single shots on auto. Taking the gun apart it is very aparent which parts the Russians copied for the AK and how CEMTE and HK developed their guns from her. The dust cover is almost copied the same for the AR15/M16. The first assault rifle was very advanced for its time. Had a great time shooting the guns only need more ammo now. Enjoy the pics."

[Guttorm]

Is this the Stg 44 that was used by the Germans in wwII? Or am I mistaken.
Anyway, it's a beautifull gun.

[Frens]

Is this the Stg 44 that was used by the Germans in wwII? Or am I mistaken.
germans started using it at the end of ww2 (fortunately ;) )

a friend of mine has got a mp44 (without full auto :( only single). it was a very advanced rifle in 40's.

[TheJedi]

Short question:

http://www.hunt101.com/img/085563.JPG

What unit does the right guy belong to?
No rank insignia, modified BDU shirt... Anyone knows?

[DeltaWhisky58]

I would be interested in the date of manufacture on the ammo headstamps.

The MP/Stg.44 was used in considerable numbers by the East German Border Guards at least into the 70s and possibly later - could these have found their way to Iraq. Certainly the DDR suppplied small arms to Iraq, e.g. the DDR-manufactured AK/AKMs (MPiK/MPiKM) with the polka-dot finished synthetic stocks - I have seen these in several captured-weapon stock-pile shots, along with the Romanian-made AKs with the forward wooden pistol-grip.

[REMOV]

...also The Yugoslavian Army was used the Stg44.

http://claus.espeholt.dk/billeder/mp44/YogoStg44a.jpg
http://claus.espeholt.dk/billeder/mp44/YugoMP44a.jpg
One of the more extensively and systematic uses of the MP44 after the war, was in the Yugoslavian army, where it's said paratroops used the MP44 as the main handgun untill 1983.

[Piotrek]

Why they were using Stg44?? Didnt they buy licens for AK or AKM after the war??

Edit: I mean Yugoslavia.

[Operation Ivy]

I would snaek that home woot

[ArmedPacifist]

Quite the prize!

[Dennis G]

I always wanted a Stg44 never seen one for sale :(

[oldsoak]

Ah, the SA90 prototype ! :lol:

[George W. Bush]

I'd be a kid in a candy store over there. Unless I get blown into a fine pink mist.

[Uninen]

I so wish that it would be mine.. :P

[haze99]

Again Remov, thanks! You are on it! You are the GUN GURU!

The MP44 was redesignated STG44 in early(?) 1945. And many were used by the (then) new country of East Germany after World War II. Some were shipped to Algeria in the 1950's!

TheJedi, the soldier (modified uniform) holding the STG44 would be a Special Forces operator.

**Interesting pictures of Yugoslav para-troopers using the STG44. And that they used them until the early 1980's!! Wow! Didn't know that?

Piotrek, yes, the Yugoslav's (until 1991) manufactured their versions of the kalashinkov, at Zastava. And still do to this day.
Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Macedonia have adopted many other weapons since their independance. i.e MP-5, AMD-65, R-4 & Utilmax 100.

Of course, Yugoslavia used many western (example; M-1A1 Tommy gun) and eastern (PPsh-41) weapons in their armed forces. Many coming out of storage during the various republic splits (1991-1995)

[He219]

http://www.gunpix.com/gallery/Rifles/M98%20und%20MP44%20mit%20Patr%20Named.jpg
Persian Mauser 98 and MP44 with their cartridges

Today was finally the day. We ended up shooting 75 of the 90 rounds of the 7.92x33 Kurz out of two MP44s. Again only have one magazine for the two. The gun I'm shooting was found inside of one of Saddam's palace's here in Baghdad and is in excellent shape for being 60 years old. The second is in lesser shape but both fired flawessly. One failure to fire (good firing pin hit, fired second time). Ammo was East German manufactured in 1961 and was said to have been found in Uday's palace. Seems they liked MP44 too. Very controlable when firing 2-3 round bursts. Cyclic rate is 500rpm and I was even able to fire single shots on auto. Taking the gun apart it is very aparent which parts the Russians copied for the AK and how CEMTE and HK developed their guns from her. (http://www.mst2-vietnam.info/Stoner_ordnance_notes/stonerhtml/Heckler_and_Koch_G3.htm)]The dust cover is almost copied the same for the AR15/M16. The first assault rifle was very advanced for its time (http://code10.kalashnikov.guns.ru/stg.html). Had a great time shooting the guns only need more ammo now. Enjoy the pics."

Excellent post, REMOV! GazB isn't going to like reading what I highlighted, hehehehe ....

Reminds me of the debate in the 'Favorite Assault Rifle' thread. ;)



Btw., as haze99 wrote, wouldn't StG44 be the more appropriate reference considering it was a political decision to subvert Hitler's strong objections against lower powered rifle development and thus dub it with a Machine-Pistol Prefix?
:D

[hank]

Btw., as haze99 wrote, wouldn't StG44 be the more appropriate reference considering it was a political decision to subvert Hitler's strong objections against lower powered rifle development and thus dub it with a Machine-Pistol Prefix?

That is a great point - the OKW had to lie to Hitler to get him to agree to the Kurz round - then when officers from the Eastern Front raved about the new weapon Hitler quickly changed his tune. For those who know - how similar is the StG44 and the HK/CETME roller block action? I am just curious.

hank

[REMOV]

GazB isn't going to like reading what I highlighted, heheheheWell, try to understand two things - firstly, this is someone's quotation, which is not always true or consistent with my personal opinions, and the secondly - GazB is a great lover of Russian construction, which sometimes he is blind to some facts ;)

Btw., as haze99 wrote, wouldn't StG44 be the more appropriate reference considering it was a political decision to subvert Hitler's strong objections against lower powered rifle development and thus dub it with a Machine-Pistol Prefix?Once again there are all George Chlebowski's own words.

I gave the topic "7,92mm assault rifle StG44", because for me it is just StG44 not MP43 or MP44, despite fact that this assault rifle also was called in such way. I try to explain why.

The first name of this gun - MP43 - was given in June 1943.
http://kc.koenig.ru/~kc/LESE/MG/mp43_.GIF
In 6 April 1944 the German Supreme Command change this name to the MP44.
http://www.therupturedduck.com/WebPages/Fieldgear/images/F-200a-b.JPG
(well I've cheated a little it isn't in fact receiver stamp mark, but magazine stamp mark I've got no time to find one)
In October 1944 Hitler ordered to replace the name MP44 another - StG44. There were no changes in the construction of the rifle, exception of StG44 stamping, which was placed directly on the old MP44 mark (on the receiver group).
http://kc.koenig.ru/~kc/LESE/MG/stg44_.GIF
(Try to examine the photo carefully to see faded old stamp mark under the new one)

In my opinion we should use the last offcial name of the assault rifle which is StG44, but there isn't a mistake when you called it MP43 or MP44.

[He219]

I agree with you, REMOV. Your use of StG44 is the more appropriate reference even though other references relate to developmental nomenclature and certainly would not be wrong; especially if it is stamped on the referenced weapon.
;)

I wonder if the Yougos and East Germans used vintage production weapons or post-war production weapons?


For those who know - how similar is the StG44 and the HK/CETME roller block action? I am just curious.
hank

Hank, if my memory serves me well, Dr. Vollmer and some of his Mauser coworkers were working on the StG45 which employed a radically different locking system than that used by the MP43 and MP44/StG44. They left Germany for Spain to continue development of the StG45 and it's innovative locking system.


The Spanish state company CETME (Centro de Estudios Tecnicos de Materiales Especiales - Special Materials Technical Studies Center, now known as Empresa National Santa Barbara) was founded in 1948 to develop various small arms for Spanish army. At about the same time it employed the German arms designer Ludwig Vorgrimler, who worked for the famous Mauser Werke in Germany before and during the World War 2. The Vorgrimler was the designer of the experimental German assault rifle, known as "Gerat 06" or Stg.45(M). This rifle was not manufactured in any quantities, but its design served as a basis for further development at the CETME, and more important, at the another German company, Heckler & Koch, which obtained a license for the Vorgrimler / CETME rifle design circa 1957.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as60-e.htm

So to answer your question hank, it was the StG45 that first incorporated delayed blowback roller-locking system whereas the MP43 and MP44/StG44 utilized a 'tipping bolt' system. Correct me if I'm wrong, REMOV.

:D

[hank]

Well then, I suppose Gracias, or maybe danke, or maybe both are in order He219. ;)

hank

[Kellhound]

But don't be fooled by the 30 round mag. No spanish CETME was issued with it. :(

My captain had one (the only one i've ever seen) and it cost him a long time to find it (he's an avid collector).

[Sixgun Symphony]

I would snaek that home woot

Me too! :)

[PsihoKeke]

Why they were using Stg44?? Didnt they buy licens for AK or AKM after the war??

Edit: I mean Yugoslavia.

They bought license quite late so production started in 1970. In late fifties they started with production of simonov semiautomatic rifles, until then the army was armed with M-48 (mauser rifle), M-53 (MG-42) and several types of SMG.
Stg44 was never produced in Yugoslavia in use was only limited quantity of weapons captured mainly at the end of the war. Paras kept them so long becouse they were kind of status symbol.

[Hullebullen]

Great pics! And interresting stuff about post-ww2 usage as well. REMOV, is it your job to constantly search the internet for cool gun pics p-)

Otherwise, I can't understand how you get the time to find and post all those wonderful pics...

[MolliG]

Great pics! And interresting stuff about post-ww2 usage as well. REMOV, is it your job to constantly search the internet for cool gun pics p-)

Otherwise, I can't understand how you get the time to find and post all those wonderful pics...

What you don't know, is that REMOV is actually the great Ian Hogg in disguise...

;)

[Hullebullen]

Ohh, you think he would sign my copy of Military small arms of 20th century, do you?

:D

[Uninen]

What you don't know, is that REMOV is actually the great Ian Hogg in disguise...

;)

LoL, that would be underestimate of REMOV, i got many of Ian's books.. and some of them arent that great at all.. full of all kinds of errors.. :|

But until now, i havent seen REMOV to make any such errors, so i think that these two arent the same.. ;)

[ZeroPositive]

I would kill to get a working MP44 back home god I LOVE IT!!!!

[Macs.]

An WW2 Vet in my neighbourhood has an old StG 44, fully working and in best conditions. I wonder how much this thing is worth.

[Michael RVR]

An WW2 Vet in my neighbourhood has an old StG 44, fully working and in best conditions. I wonder how much this thing is worth.

You know what they say, something is worth however much someone else is prepared to pay for it.. and from this thread alone i could easily speculate it to be worth a fair bit ;)

[He219]

An WW2 Vet in my neighbourhood has an old StG 44, fully working and in best conditions. I wonder how much this thing is worth.

$6500-$8500 US Dollars and up. In my mind the historical significance of an authentic MP43/MP44/StG44 far exceeds current market values. Definately something to hold on to.

:D

[bas]

An WW2 Vet in my neighbourhood has an old StG 44, fully working and in best conditions. I wonder how much this thing is worth.

$6500-$8500 US Dollars and up. In my mind the historical significance of an authentic MP43/MP44/StG44 far exceeds current market values. Definately something to hold on to.

:D

Like Michael says, it really depends on how much people are prepared to pay for it. As the weapon is in Germany it would be illegal to own? making it difficult to find a buyer. In New Zealand they sell for around $1000-1500 US because they are not that popular and the number that are available. Although the price is slowly creaping up.

[jlanni]

REMOV wrote:


Persian Mauser 98 and MP44 with their cartridges
Quote:
Today was finally the day. We ended up shooting 75 of the 90 rounds of the 7.92x33 Kurz out of two MP44s. Again only have one magazine for the two. The gun I'm shooting was found inside of one of Saddam's palace's here in Baghdad and is in excellent shape for being 60 years old. The second is in lesser shape but both fired flawessly. One failure to fire (good firing pin hit, fired second time). Ammo was East German manufactured in 1961 and was said to have been found in Uday's palace. Seems they liked MP44 too. Very controlable when firing 2-3 round bursts. Cyclic rate is 500rpm and I was even able to fire single shots on auto. Taking the gun apart it is very aparent which parts the Russians copied for the AK and how CEMTE and HK developed their guns from her. ]The dust cover is almost copied the same for the AR15/M16. The first assault rifle was very advanced for its time. Had a great time shooting the guns only need more ammo now. Enjoy the pics."



Excellent post, REMOV! GazB isn't going to like reading what I highlighted, hehehehe ....

Reminds me of the debate in the 'Favorite Assault Rifle' thread.



Btw., as haze99 wrote, wouldn't StG44 be the more appropriate reference considering it was a political decision to subvert Hitler's strong objections against lower powered rifle development and thus dub it with a Machine-Pistol Prefix?

dont fix what aint broken :-D

[Chrome Beretta]

Sweet pics man. The StG44 is such a sweet gun, great for its time. On Mail Call on the History channel, Gunny dude fired it, and it was quite good for perhaps the first assualt rifle.