Chinese army daily criticizes troops' performance in live fire drill

[BoyElroy]

BBC Worldwide Monitoring

January 27, 2006 Friday

HEADLINE: Chinese army daily criticizes troops' performance in live fire drill

Text of report by Minnie Chan published by Hong Kong newspaper South China Morning Post website on 27 January

In rare criticism, the People's Liberation Army Daily has criticized the armed forces taking part in a major live-fire exercise for their lack of efficiency and failure to master the skills needed to wage information warfare.

The criticism followed poor results from the recent Hanhai Storm exercises on the Kerqin grassland in Tongliao city, Inner Mongolia, according to the paper.

Three divisions, comprising about 50,000 troops, from the Shenyang military region took part in the four-stage exercises, in which the troops representing the PLA [People's Liberation Army] were defeated by the enemy Blue Army - believed to have simulated US battle techniques.

"There were failures [in the exercises] which left regrets and thoughts," the newspaper said.

In the first stage, the Red Army was ordered to repel the attacking Blue Army. Despite its firepower being strengthened by the availability of six hi-tech aircraft, the Red Army troops were defeated because the army commander forgot to call in air support.

The other three stages revealed the PLA officers were slow to respond and did not have a firm grasp of the advanced technologies needed to stage information warfare.

Antony Wong, president of the International Military Association in Macao, thought the exercises simulated a "ground battle" on the Korean Peninsula, with the Blue Army representing the US.

"The report is aimed at warning the PLA not to be complacent over the improvement of weaponry because the international environment is more complex than their imagination," he said.

Andrei Chang, a Hong Kong-based specialist in Chinese military affairs, said it was not the first time the newspaper had criticized the military.

"The military leadership has realized that the qualifications of their soldiers are inferior to their neighbouring countries, particularly Japan and South Korea," he said.

Source: South China Morning Post website, Hong Kong, in English 27 Jan 06

LOAD-DATE: January 26, 2006

[BoyElroy]

And on a related note:


BBC Worldwide Monitoring

January 23, 2006 Monday

HEADLINE: Chinese military training focused on combat drills, informatization in 2005

Text of report by Yang Xuguang and Bai Ruixue, carried by official Chinese news agency Xinhua (New China News Agency)

Beijing, 19 January: The General Staff Department of the People's Liberation Army [PLA] recently revealed to reporters that in the year 2005, which has just rolled by, the whole army and armed police units conscientiously carried out President Hu Jintao's important instruction on carrying out military training in depth and in a down-to-earth manner. All of the military and armed police units were able to accomplish their annual training tasks as planned, and military training has entered a favourable phase of holistic advancement and coordinated development.

According to the person in charge of a department concerned under the General Staff Department, military training in 2005 boasted the following characteristics:

- Stress was laid on enhancing the ability to carry out missions and tasks, and the training process became closer to real combat. All armed forces strove to establish more firmly the guiding ideology of having real combat in mind while paying special attention to training. Stress was also laid on enhancing the integrated [Chinese: zhengti] combat capability of all units and on significantly intensifying drilling on mission subjects in simulated combat situations. The successful organization of a series of major drills with actual troops and live ammunition initiated the elevation of the overall training level of the whole army and effectively facilitated the building of our army's combat capability. Our armed police units specifically intensified drills in maintaining order and stability in emergency situations, and their capability to ized cocarry out missions was further elevated.

- Adaptations were made to meet the requirement to engage in combat under informatnditions, and reform in training was carried out in a down-to-earth manner. On the basis of the requirement to win partial wars under informatized conditions, the whole army persisted in carrying out troop training and rejuvenating training through science and technology. It actively and steadfastly embarked on the study and exploration of integrated [yitihua] training, and achieved a number of important positive results through reform in training. The whole army acquired a new understanding and grasp of the characteristics and regular patterns of military training under informatized conditions, and laid stress on fostering its officers' and men's information consciousness, information-related knowledge, and information skills. The study of new knowledge, new theories, and new techniques was also intensified, the science and technology content of training was constantly enriched, and there was a remarkable enhancement of our units' competence in informatization.

- The requirement to manage training according to the law and strict discipline was fulfilled, and new vitality was manifested in the development of training. All armed forces had persisted in giving training according to guiding principles, and organically combined rigorous training order with impetus to motivate troop training. Army-wide contests and competitions in military skills were extensively launched, and an intense atmosphere of troop training prevailed, which served to temper and nurture a batch of highly competent personnel. At the same time, a "troop exercise assessment system" was made use of for the first time to assess the performance of our ground forces and to comprehensively examine the capability of units being tested to carry out command and control, long-distance manoeuvres, and fire strikes; the capability to engage in overall defence and protection; and the capability to provide comprehensive support - as a result, effective orientation for troop training was established.

- Teaching reform in [military] colleges and schools was deepened, and significant positive results were achieved in the nurturing of new-type and highly competent military personnel. The whole army actively pushed forward the holistic transformation of its college and school education, stepped up efforts on reform in teaching contents and ways of organizing training, and clearly established the mental approach and measures to cope with the urgent need for nurturing personnel to engage in actual military struggles. The planning of military personnel strategic projects was carried out and positive efforts were made to develop degree-based military post-graduate and professional education, and the nurturing of high-level military personnel was further intensified. In addition, foreign exchanges in terms of counterpart countries and specialty fields were also broadened, and over 300 students were sent to over 20 countries to receive military education.

Source: Xinhua news agency domestic service, Beijing, in Chinese 1101 gmt 19 Jan 06

LOAD-DATE: January 23, 2006

[Icar]

The language of second article reminds me something. Commie propaganda:)

[rhino]

BBC Worldwide Monitoring

January 27, 2006 Friday

HEADLINE: Chinese army daily criticizes troops' performance in live fire drill

Text of report by Minnie Chan published by Hong Kong newspaper South China Morning Post website on 27 January

In rare criticism, the People's Liberation Army Daily has criticized the armed forces taking part in a major live-fire exercise for their lack of efficiency and failure to master the skills needed to wage information warfare.

The criticism followed poor results from the recent Hanhai Storm exercises on the Kerqin grassland in Tongliao city, Inner Mongolia, according to the paper.

Three divisions, comprising about 50,000 troops, from the Shenyang military region took part in the four-stage exercises, in which the troops representing the PLA [People's Liberation Army] were defeated by the enemy Blue Army - believed to have simulated US battle techniques.

"There were failures [in the exercises] which left regrets and thoughts," the newspaper said.

In the first stage, the Red Army was ordered to repel the attacking Blue Army. Despite its firepower being strengthened by the availability of six hi-tech aircraft, the Red Army troops were defeated because the army commander forgot to call in air support.

The other three stages revealed the PLA officers were slow to respond and did not have a firm grasp of the advanced technologies needed to stage information warfare.

Antony Wong, president of the International Military Association in Macao, thought the exercises simulated a "ground battle" on the Korean Peninsula, with the Blue Army representing the US.

"The report is aimed at warning the PLA not to be complacent over the improvement of weaponry because the international environment is more complex than their imagination," he said.

Andrei Chang, a Hong Kong-based specialist in Chinese military affairs, said it was not the first time the newspaper had criticized the military.

"The military leadership has realized that the qualifications of their soldiers are inferior to their neighbouring countries, particularly Japan and South Korea," he said.

Source: South China Morning Post website, Hong Kong, in English 27 Jan 06

LOAD-DATE: January 26, 2006

yea right, nice disinformation procedures! I wonder how hard they want the world to belive that China is a dragon without teeth

[Roaming East]

Thats what posters on this site having been saying for years. You cant tell a forces ability in the field by what new equipment it has but by its doctrine and training. The PLA is upgrading its forces rapidly but it's not training its personnel in the new manner of warfare in the same way.
Unusual to hear this from official souces though. Maybe the PLA is about to sack some officers and is using this as an excuse.

[JoaMei]

Thats what posters on this site having been saying for years. You cant tell a forces ability in the field by what new equipment it has but by its doctrine and training. The PLA is upgrading its forces rapidly but it's not training its personnel in the new manner of warfare in the same way.
Unusual to hear this from official souces though. Maybe the PLA is about to sack some officers and is using this as an excuse.

Or they try to get out a certain propaganda and desinformation Message.

[Roaming East]

disinformation? in what particular way?

[rhino]

disinformation? in what particular way?

by making claims that the army is so pathetic that they cant fight with americans, but I think your analysis is just as good, that would be a great way to sack someone, and I wont be surprised if that happens too

[JoaMei]

disinformation? in what particular way?

For getting more funds for training? Nothing goes into a chinese Newspaper without being censored. Critical articles about the PLA never appeared before.

[Roaming East]

For getting more funds for training? Nothing goes into a chinese Newspaper without being censored. Critical articles about the PLA never appeared before.
I would go with that but the article adresses very specific failures and chief among them were those responsible for those failures. you dont call people out by name if its a question of appropriating extra funds or equipment. look at how the US let the Indian AF maul its F15 fleet. It wasnt a doctrinal issue or poor leadership, it was "non-competitve equipment" that led to the loss.

Rhino makes a good point too. This could be understating Chinese abilities to try to influence American tactics to it. If our theatre commanders dont think the Chinese will perform CAS missions diligently it might come as a surprise when and if they begin running massive well cooridinated interdiction missions on our butts. But if they say that is their weakspot wouldnt a general rightly assume that they would then begin improving that particular capability?

[Banner_of_America]

The PLA is trying to open up and become a modern army in every way, like those in NATO who scrutinise their exercises and operations in public fashion. A very small starting step to becoming an army that is recognised as capable by the developed nations.

In many areas, including research and development, the PLA is still decades behind. And it'll never catch up until it holds exercises with NATO, but their short-sighted open belligerence over Taiwan is an insurmountable barrier.

Still a long way to go.

[Atlantic Friend]

There's nothing new with that. IIRC, Soviet officers used to do the same in the Red Army newspapers, maybe even in the Pravda. It's the old Communist process of self-criticism meeting the old military process of debriefing.

I don't think the message here is "ooh, we can't fight our way out of a paperbag". The message sounds more like "ooh, we are identifying our mistakes and working on it".

[Roaming East]

so this level of critical brevity is common in the PLA? Had heard it was SOP in other communist armies guess its the same in the middle kingdom

[Banner_of_America]

There's nothing new with that. IIRC, Soviet officers used to do the same in the Red Army newspapers, maybe even in the Pravda. It's the old Communist process of self-criticism meeting the old military process of debriefing.

I don't think the message here is "ooh, we can't fight our way out of a paperbag". The message sounds more like "ooh, we are identifying our mistakes and working on it".


You don't understand the mentality of PLA at all. They have very rarely if ever admitted they are poor, which they are, but would rather dy by the bushels in war than do so. Plus, you can't identify mistakes by yourself in a vacuum, that's like training for the Olympics 100m swimming in your bathtub. They need joint exercises not with Russia, poor troops generally who's been observed by NATO officers as not knowing their asses from their elbows, even today, but with America and her bethren.

[Atlantic Friend]

You don't understand the mentality of PLA at all. They have very rarely if ever admitted they are poor, which they are, but would rather dy by the bushels in war than do so.[:quote]

Could it be their way of petitioning for more money, a bit like when US Air Force generals say that unless they're given thousands of F-22 raptors, Us pilots will be outmatched by Indian Mig-21s ?

[quote]Plus, you can't identify mistakes by yourself in a vacuum, that's like training for the Olympics 100m swimming in your bathtub.

I don't want to be blunt, but when you first lessons of swimming you basically begin to train in a volume of water not very different from your bathtub...


They need joint exercises not with Russia, poor troops generally who's been observed by NATO officers as not knowing their asses from their elbows, even today, but with America and her bethren.

Russian troops, not knowing their asses from their elbows ? Ho-hum. Do you have recent NATO reports backing your comment ?

[Banner_of_America]

[quote=Banner_of_America]You don't understand the mentality of PLA at all. They have very rarely if ever admitted they are poor, which they are, but would rather dy by the bushels in war than do so.[:quote]

Could it be their way of petitioning for more money, a bit like when US Air Force generals say that unless they're given thousands of F-22 raptors, Us pilots will be outmatched by Indian Mig-21s ?



I don't want to be blunt, but when you first lessons of swimming you basically begin to train in a volume of water not very different from your bathtub...



Russian troops, not knowing their asses from their elbows ? Ho-hum. Do you have recent NATO reports backing your comment ?


No, the PLA in this respect has no problem soliciting funds at all, since this exercise involved their Tier A army, the 150, 000 soldiers who are equipped spectacularly (by their standards) and led by supposedly their best officers. Each brigade of this army is selected from a division and gets all the organic equipment and fire support from the division's other two brigades. There is nothing the PLA would not do for this expeditionary force.

Moreever there is never an indication that despite progressing equipment enrichment, that the PLA has learnt the lessons of modern battle, even something as antiquated as AirLandBattle. In fact, PLA officers at the general command level are still suspicious of air power, content with maintaining air denial rather than air superiority, which is why in this case only 6 aircraft are tasked for the troops playing the Chinese side. Recent exercises with the Russians also reveal little or no improvement in capabilities at the army level, although the new naval anti-ship weapons are interesting.

In any case, this exercise is specific in its condemation, not in the lack of equipment or information or technology, but in the inability of its officers who are used to the Russian or guerilla model of fighting (some of their generals are old) to utilise information and respond quickly and show initiative.

This is interesting, since personnel failures are never ever reported by the PLA, although NATO and the US does it all the time, including that retired general who boasted he sank half the US task force masquerading as the Iraqis. In fact, news that the Chinese are still incapable of flying their Sukhois Su-27s and Su-20MKKs at a combat setting but rather more like transport aircraft has been leaked by Chinese bloggers with contacts rather than official channels.

This is a first step insisted by the Chinese government to open up the armed forces and the defense procurement and research industry, as beauracracy and bull**** are clogging up their veins. I think they realise that glowing fitness reports every year will result in a carpet of dead bodies floating in the Straits and on Taiwanese beaches. They also have taken note of the US Zoellick's refrain to introduce more transparency like a responsible power and not act so paranoid that military conflagrations are actually more likely.

Your swimming analogy is stupid.

And Russian troops are very bad. You won't find it in official reports, since you have to read between the lines, and their actual operational experience since is so ****ed up, but you also need to know NATO officers who have observed them.

[Roaming East]

cue Sergey31 entering this thread in 3,2,1....

[ed316]

cue Sergey31 entering this thread in 3,2,1....

x2 or any Russian on the forum.

[Atlantic Friend]

[quote=Atlantic Friend]


No, the PLA in this respect has no problem soliciting funds at all, since this exercise involved their Tier A army, the 150, 000 soldiers who are equipped spectacularly (by their standards) and led by supposedly their best officers. Each brigade of this army is selected from a division and gets all the organic equipment and fire support from the division's other two brigades. There is nothing the PLA would not do for this expeditionary force.

You could say the same about the USAF : spectacularly equipped, best officers, etc. Yet, they feel the need to resort to the same tactics of faking weakness to obtain more funding.


Your swimming analogy is stupid.

As you are a newbie in these here parts, maybe it'll have escaped you that forum members are supposed to show some manners, or at least to fake them.

[ed316]

Like it or not the PLA and The US military will have a showdwn. This just goes to show the PLA wants quality over quantity. They had already reduce troop levels.

[Atlantic Friend]

Like it or not the PLA and The US military will have a showdwn. This just goes to show the PLA wants quality over quantity. They had already reduce troop levels.

They seem to try to outgrow the Soviet-style mass army, and to patch up something leaner.

[ed316]

They seem to try to outgrow the Soviet-style mass army, and to patch up something leaner.


Well, the days of waves after waves are over. Just like the machine gun change the face of warefare in WW1

[Atlantic Friend]

Well, the days of waves after waves are over. Just like the machine gun change the face of warefare in WW1

BTW, how are things going in your neck of the woods, Ed ?

[Banner_of_America]

Again that is wrong. The Chinese army is not reducing its numbers, it is introducing apartheid. The latest 300, 000 they reduced to 2.3 million are switched over to their Armed Police forces, which require lighter equipment and are mainly used to suppress their population. Since the Armed Police are under the TOE of the PLA, they have not really reduced their headcount at all. What they are doing is to select the most promising and try to train them along Western lines, so that in the short term they are ready for innovative defence, in the long term hopefully as a seed of a modern army.

Can you see now how long it's going to take them? In addition they are spending nearly 20 US billion dollars a year in research but their RND capabilities are creaking. Their indigenous fighter plane engine is 21 years in the making. Despite having plans of a Israeli plane, their J-10 has been quietly declared a failure and Russian help roped in to make a super, double -seated J-10. Most of their equipment is copied in exterior. They had to source phase-array radar from Ukraine in the past, but not likely to buy anything else soon. Their submarines are still at Victor III class level, which the West knows all about since the Wall fell. Poor.

There is a reason the Taiwanese government is so relaxed about spending money on DEFENSIVE weapons, they're actually keen to buy OFFENSIVE weapons. Some are even juggling around text that declare China is part of Taiwan!

[ed316]

BTW, how are things going in your neck of the woods, Ed ?

It' sunny. Had a crap load of rain couple of days ago, but all and all it's good. How's yours?

[rhino]

I would go with that but the article adresses very specific failures and chief among them were those responsible for those failures. you dont call people out by name if its a question of appropriating extra funds or equipment. look at how the US let the Indian AF maul its F15 fleet. It wasnt a doctrinal issue or poor leadership, it was "non-competitve equipment" that led to the loss.

Rhino makes a good point too. This could be understating Chinese abilities to try to influence American tactics to it. If our theatre commanders dont think the Chinese will perform CAS missions diligently it might come as a surprise when and if they begin running massive well cooridinated interdiction missions on our butts. But if they say that is their weakspot wouldnt a general rightly assume that they would then begin improving that particular capability?

you have to remember that Sun Tsu, author of "Art of War" was Chinise

[Banner_of_America]

well I'm a quarter Chinese too, and I can tell you Sun Tzu is good for ferentic Communist paper tiger dreams at midnight, but in the real world nothing beats NATO training, a policy of open learning and adjustment and good old American ****ups.

We're not fighting with horses, spears and peasants for ****'s sake. Soldiers nowadas are more like technicians with a bad attitude.

[Atlantic Friend]

It' sunny. Had a crap load of rain couple of days ago, but all and all it's good. How's yours?

Awesome, we got some snow Saturday, something I hadn't seen around here since my students years 15 years ago. The lady isn't used to European "mild" winter yet (that's what you get when you're used to be pampered in Louisiana and Florida) but she's getting there !

[rhino]

well I'm a quarter Chinese too, and I can tell you Sun Tzu is good for ferentic Communist paper tiger dreams at midnight, but in the real world nothing beats NATO training, a policy of open learning and adjustment and good old American ****ups.

We're not fighting with horses, spears and peasants for ****'s sake. Soldiers nowadas are more like technicians with a bad attitude.

and noone claimed that Chinese army is still using cavalery tactics, what Im simply implying is that the art of disinformation, to quote Sun Tsu "Make your enemy belive you are weak where you are strong, and strong in places you are weak", is a Chinese invention, its in their blood, and to discredit the "Art of War" would be silly, the book is a must read in the universities for the business majors, it has even been rewriten to make it easier to apply in the corporate world

[Banner_of_America]

Cope India 2005 (the one with F-15s) is a non-issue. Very simple reason.

The Americans were simulating Sparrow semi-active missiles, which the Pakistani only have. This means that at the enforced 20 mile firing range, they have to maintain their nose pointed at the Indian planes through the precious few seconds Indian missiles were boring in. No escape really. The Indians, especially the Sukhois which are not as good avionically but everyone can pick up an F-15 at 10m2 RCS at 20 miles, could fire and maneuver instantly. Even if the Americans killed the escorts and survived, they would already have merged and the bombers will have scooted past and accelerating.

It is all bull****. But the Air Force was shocked at the hysterical response of the press and realised that agreeing to the limits of the exercise was too much. In Cope India 2006 F-16s with nominal AMRAAMs went up against the best pilots of the Indian Air Force, nearly all majors and above who have gone through their Weapons school, and acquitted themselves very well.

The self-patting Indian press is something to behold. I am embarrassed for them.

[Banner_of_America]

and noone claimed that Chinese army is still using cavalery tactics, what Im simply implying is that the art of disinformation, to quote Sun Tsu "Make your enemy belive you are weak where you are strong, and strong in places you are weak", is a Chinese invention, its in their blood, and to discredit the "Art of War" would be silly, the book is a must read in the universities for the business majors, it has even been rewriten to make it easier to apply in the corporate world

As I said, disinformation is only likely if NATO is in the habit of reading their government-controlled newspapers and press releases to get all their intelligence, which is not likely. MI6 is reportedly harvesting a truckload of Chinese agents, because they are so corrupt. Do you really think Chinese are cunning, world plotting Ming the Mandarin types who are controlling every step of the chess board? The Sun Tzu trick is actually to convince people like you this is the case. They have realised that too much bull**** is percolating through their channels of reporting and lines of command. How would you stir things up and force people to change if everything is reported as rosy? Impossible.

[ed316]

Awesome, we got some snow Saturday, something I hadn't seen around here since my students years 15 years ago. The lady isn't used to European "mild" winter yet (that's what you get when you're used to be pampered in Louisiana and Florida) but she's getting there !

My G/F grew up in Paris and can't stand the Texas heat! She's Vietnamese/French

[Roaming East]

Cope India 2005 (the one with F-15s) is a non-issue. Very simple reason.

The Americans were simulating Sparrow semi-active missiles, which the Pakistani only have. This means that at the enforced 20 mile firing range, they have to maintain their nose pointed at the Indian planes through the precious few seconds Indian missiles were boring in. No escape really. The Indians, especially the Sukhois which are not as good avionically but everyone can pick up an F-15 at 10m2 RCS at 20 miles, could fire and maneuver instantly. Even if the Americans killed the escorts and survived, they would already have merged and the bombers will have scooted past and accelerating.

It is all bull****. But the Air Force was shocked at the hysterical response of the press and realised that agreeing to the limits of the exercise was too much. In Cope India 2006 F-16s with nominal AMRAAMs went up against the best pilots of the Indian Air Force, nearly all majors and above who have gone through their Weapons school, and acquitted themselves very well.

The self-patting Indian press is something to behold. I am embarrassed for them.
Everyone in the military let alone the USAF was aware of that but the cronies in congress arent exactly hip to air combat and the USAF leadership deemed it prudent to not really inform them, hey whatever gets us the F22 right?

The Chinese havent applied Sun Tzu since the commies took over, they have no finesse whatsoever and to attribute Tzu's policies to them is retarded when only based on the fact they they are Chinese. Saladin was badass too but you dont see Arab armies kicking ass now do you?

[rhino]

As I said, disinformation is only likely if NATO is in the habit of reading their government-controlled newspapers and press releases to get all their intelligence, which is not likely. MI6 is reportedly harvesting a truckload of Chinese agents, because they are so corrupt. Do you really think Chinese are cunning, world plotting Ming the Mandarin types who are controlling every step of the chess board? The Sun Tzu trick is actually to convince people like you this is the case. They have realised that too much bull**** is percolating through their channels of reporting and lines of command. How would you stir things up and force people to change if everything is reported as rosy? Impossible.

that was the most subtle way of calling me ignorant:) , the chinese genes are strong in you.

anyway, back to topic, I absolutly agree with you, the technick is directed at the majority of the western society, which in turn influences the westerb governmets, after all you cant expect the top secret reports made by military inteligence to make it into the public view? and I do believe that the whole thing is ment to get something out of the Party, it could also mean a internal power stragle in the Chinese Party, dont forget about the recent unrests. I think something is bruing up and its not going to be pretty.

[Banner_of_America]

You are absolutely correct in this, RhinofromCanada, major winds of change are sweeping the Communist Party of China, and there is indeed an internal struggle. I am reluctant to talk of it now, but there are indications that there is one major faction that sees its long term ally as, guess who, the United States!

[rhino]

Everyone in the military let alone the USAF was aware of that but the cronies in congress arent exactly hip to air combat and the USAF leadership deemed it prudent to not really inform them, hey whatever gets us the F22 right?

The Chinese havent applied Sun Tzu since the commies took over, they have no finesse whatsoever and to attribute Tzu's policies to them is retarded when only based on the fact they they are Chinese. Saladin was badass too but you dont see Arab armies kicking ass now do you?

Saladin? you talkin middle ages now, when educatinal system alone was superior in the middle east then in europe at the time, let alone the technology. The tables have turned, and the Middle East is devided, but Im pretty sure that if there was a leader of Saladins caliber to come out and unify ME, we would have our hands full trying to contain them in the region, its a good thing that all the regimes are greedy and try to outdo they competition by any means neccessary.

[Roaming East]

Same applies to the Chinese in terms of SunTzu. Thats the case im ineloquently attempting to make

[rhino]

You are absolutely correct in this, RhinofromCanada, major winds of change are sweeping the Communist Party of China, and there is indeed an internal struggle. I am reluctant to talk of it now, but there are indications that there is one major faction that sees its long term ally as, guess who, the United States!

if that is true, and the said fraction comes out succesfull in the end, that could spell out end to the troubles with North Korea and reunification with Taiwan, in the long run

[rhino]

Same applies to the Chinese in terms of SunTzu. Thats the case im ineloquently attempting to make

and I disagree with you, the chinese take a great pride in their history, the Commusit Party cant ignory it, but they can interpret it any way they want and influence the society with that interpratation, Sun Tsu was a philosopher, not a leader, he tryed to influence the leaders and he has, and still does

[Banner_of_America]

Kim Jong II was recently in Beijing, right? The reason he "disappeared" was to make a detour to Shanghai. Later he was reported to have told the Chinese leadership that after seeing the change in that city in just 20 years, he can't sleep at night! He wants to reform North Korea's economy. Good luck to him, the cretin. I hope his own officers lynch him when the ever-on propaganda shuts off and they realise the kind of life South Koreans are living.

Reunification with Taiwan is a tricky proposition unless China becomes a full democracy.

Today the US is conquering China through another way, soft power, incidentally because they are making so many of the products that USA uses. Now the lifestyle of the middle class in China is to be like the Americans, dressing the same, driving SUVs and yatches, going to hill-top ski resorts like Aspen. China has no soft power whatsoever. They have military power, they have economic power which translate to some diplomatic power, but who the hell wants to live like the Chinese, when the Chinese want to live like Americans? Plus Christianity is sweeping the country, with millions converted every year, faster than the 1 million a month they pull out of poverty.

Still, many dangerous months and years lie ahead.

[Roaming East]

and I disagree with you, the chinese take a great pride in their history, the Commusit Party cant ignory it, but they can interpret it any way they want and influence the society with that interpratation, Sun Tsu was a philosopher, not a leader, he tryed to influence the leaders and he has, and still does
Well i know they take pride in their history. All cultures do for the most part. But not all cultures embrace their history and actively fullfill its dictums. In this case Communist China has the military history of basically trying to brute force its way into all its many adventures and generally has payed a pretty nasty cost for it. Idolalize the guy all you want but if all you pay is lip service to his strategies than you arent really a student and adherent, culture or not...

[rhino]

Well i know they take pride in their history. All cultures do for the most part. But not all cultures embrace their history and actively fullfill its dictums. In this case Communist China has the military history of basically trying to brute force its way into all its many adventures and generally has payed a pretty nasty cost for it. Idolalize the guy all you want but if all you pay is lip service to his strategies than you arent really a student and adherent, culture or not...

I dont idolize the guy, I simply chose not to ignore his teachings, I think its rather ignorant to asume that he didnt influence the chinese to apply some of his strategies in everyday policy making process. And again, I only used the guy as an proof that in the writen history, of any part of the word, the Chinese were first ones to confess to use the disinformation as way to increas the chances of winning on the battlefield.

[Roaming East]

Wasnt refering directly to you, i just get pissing annoyed when everytime the battle effectiveness of the PLA is brought into question sooner or later someone chimes in with the "..but Sun Tzu was Chinese!!11" line as if that means anything at all. I used Saladin as an example of how ANY nation or people on earth can occaisonally produce an enlightened or effective individual but to summarize an entire ethnic group by the accomplishments of one person from a thousand years ago is insane! Chinese military history for the past few centuries has not exactly been awe inspiring so until they start actually applying some of this stuff they love to lord about im gonna call shenanigans. This is by no means an attack on you Rhino. Just a disagreement i have with the Sun Tzu trumps all argument.

[rhino]

Wasnt refering directly to you, i just get pissing annoyed when everytime the battle effectiveness of the PLA is brought into question sooner or later someone chimes in with the "..but Sun Tzu was Chinese!!11" line as if that means anything at all. I used Saladin as an example of how ANY nation or people on earth can occaisonally produce an enlightened or effective individual but to summarize an entire ethnic group by the accomplishments of one person from a thousand years ago is insane! Chinese military history for the past few centuries has not exactly been awe inspiring so until they start actually applying some of this stuff they love to lord about im gonna call shenanigans. This is by no means an attack on you Rhino. Just a disagreement i have with the Sun Tzu trumps all argument.

I didnt take it as such, my point is that any raport comming directly from Chinese government about the state of their army should be put under a microscope simply because its a communist gov, and because they pretty much invented the art of disinformation:)

[fantassin]

It reminds me of the USAF report after training against the Indian Air Force...."Oh we are so weak and they are so strong...BTW, could we have a few more F-22s please? "

[Atlantic Friend]

It reminds me of the USAF report after training against the Indian Air Force...."Oh we are so weak and they are so strong...BTW, could we have a few more F-22s please? "

Ha ! Exactly what I said !