View Full Version : When John Kerry's Courage Went M.I.A.
pinkeye
02-25-2004, 04:59 PM
this article raises some important questions about kerry. courtesy of that "pinko commie rag". the village voice (which is a great publication).
by the way, i still hate bush, but i'm willing to criticise my fellow "liberals"...
When John Kerry's Courage Went M.I.A.
by Sydney H. Schanberg
February 24th, 2004 1:00 PM
Senator John Kerry, a decorated battle veteran, was courageous as any navy lieutenant in the Vietnam War. But he was not so courageous more than two decades later, when he covered up voluminous evidence that a significant number of live American prisoners—perhaps hundreds—were never acknowledged or returned after the war-ending treaty was signed in January 1973.
The Massachusetts senator, now seeking the presidency, carried out this subterfuge a little over a decade ago— shredding documents, suppressing testimony, and sanitizing the committee's final report—when he was chairman of the Senate Select Committee on P.O.W./ M.I.A. Affairs.
Over the years, an abundance of evidence had come to light that the North Vietnamese, while returning 591 U.S. prisoners of war after the treaty signing, had held back many others as future bargaining chips for the $4 billion or more in war reparations that the Nixon administration had pledged. Hanoi didn't trust Washington to fulfill its pro-mise without pressure. Similarly, Washington didn't trust Hanoi to return all the prisoners and carry out all the treaty provisions. The mistrust on both sides was merited. Hanoi held back prisoners and the U.S. provided no reconstruction funds.
The stated purpose of the special Senate committee—which convened in mid 1991 and concluded in January 1993—was to investigate the evidence about prisoners who were never returned and find out what happened to the missing men. Committee chair Kerry's larger and different goal, though never stated publicly, emerged over time: He wanted to clear a path to normalization of relations with Hanoi. In any other context, that would have been an honorable goal. But getting at the truth of the unaccounted for P.O.W.'s and M.I.A.'s (Missing In Action) was the main obstacle to normalization—and therefore in conflict with his real intent and plan of action.
Kerry denied back then that he disguised his real goal, contending that he supported normalization only as a way to learn more about the missing men. But almost nothing has emerged about these prisoners since diplomatic and economic relations were restored in 1995, and thus it would appear—as most realists expected—that Kerry's explanation was hollow. He has also denied in the past the allegations of a cover-up, either by the Pentagon or himself. Asked for comment on this article, the Kerry campaign sent a quote from the senator: "In the end, I think what we can take pride in is that we put together the most significant, most thorough, most exhaustive accounting for missing and former P.O.W.'s in the history of human warfare."
What was the body of evidence that prisoners were held back? A short list would include more than 1,600 firsthand sightings of live U.S. prisoners; nearly 14,000 secondhand reports; numerous intercepted Communist radio messages from within Vietnam and Laos about American prisoners being moved by their captors from one site to another; a series of satellite photos that continued into the 1990s showing clear prisoner rescue signals carved into the ground in Laos and Vietnam, all labeled inconclusive by the Pentagon; multiple reports about unacknowledged prisoners from North Vietnamese informants working for U.S. intelligence agencies, all ignored or declared unreliable; persistent complaints by senior U.S. intelligence officials (some of them made publicly) that live-prisoner evidence was being suppressed; and clear proof that the Pentagon and other keepers of the "secret" destroyed a variety of files over the years to keep the P.O.W./M.I.A. families and the public from finding out and possibly setting off a major public outcry.
The resignation of Colonel Millard Peck in 1991, the first year of the Kerry committee's tenure, was one of many vivid landmarks in this saga's history. Peck had been the head of the Pentagon's P.O.W./M.I.A. office for only eight months when he resigned in disgust. In his damning departure statement, he wrote: "The mind-set to 'debunk' is alive and well. It is held at all levels . . . Practically all analysis is directed to finding fault with the source. Rarely has there been any effective, active follow-through on any of the sightings . . . The sad fact is that . . . a cover-up may be in progress. The entire charade does not appear to be an honest effort and may never have been."
Finally, Peck said: "From what I have witnessed, it appears that any soldier left in Vietnam, even inadvertently, was in fact abandoned years ago, and that the farce that is being played is no more than political legerdemain done with 'smoke and mirrors' to stall the issue until it dies a natural death."
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What did Kerry do in furtherance of the cover-up? An overview would include the following: He allied himself with those carrying it out by treating the Pentagon and other prisoner debunkers as partners in the investigation instead of the targets they were supposed to be. In short, he did their bidding. When Defense Department officials were coming to testify, Kerry would have his staff director, Frances Zwenig, meet with them to "script" the hearings—as detailed in an internal Zwenig memo leaked by others. Zwenig also advised North Vietnamese officials on how to state their case. Further, Kerry never pushed or put up a fight to get key government documents unclassified; he just rolled over, no matter how obvious it was that the documents contained confirming data about prisoners. Moreover, after promising to turn over all committee records to the National Archives when the panel concluded its work, the senator destroyed crucial intelligence information the staff had gathered—to to keep the documents from becoming public. He refused to subpoena past presidents and other key witnesses.
When revelatory sworn testimony was given to the committee by President Reagan's national security adviser, Richard Allen—about a credible proposal from Hanoi in 1981 to return more than 50 prisoners for a $4 billion ransom—Kerry had that testimony taken in a closed door interview, not a public hearing. But word leaked out and a few weeks later, Allen sent a letter to the committee, not under oath, recanting his testimony, saying his memory had played tricks on him. Kerry never did any probe into Allen's original, detailed account, and instead accepted his recantation as gospel truth.
A Secret Service agent then working at the White House, John Syphrit, told committee staffers he had overheard part of a conversation about the Hanoi proposal for ransom. He said he was willing to testify but feared reprisal from his Treasury Department superiors and would need to be subpoenaed so that his appearance could not be regarded as voluntary. Kerry refused to subpoena him. Syphrit told me that four men were involved in that conversation—Reagan, Allen, Vice President George H.W. Bush, and CIA director William Casey. I wrote the story for Newsday.
The final Kerry report brushed off the entire episode like unsightly dust. It said: "The committee found no credible evidence of any such [ransom] offer being made."
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A newcomer to this subject matter might reasonably ask why there was no great public outrage, no sustained headlines, no national demand for investigations, no penalties imposed on those who had hidden, and were still hiding, the truth. The simple, overarching explanation was that most Americans wanted to put Vietnam behind them as fast as possible. They wanted to forget this failed war, not deal with its truths or consequences. The press suffered from the same ostrich syndrome; no major media organization ever carried out an in-depth investigation by a reporting team into the prisoner issue. When prisoner stories did get into the press, they would have a one-day life span, never to be followed up on. When three secretaries of defense from the Vietnam era—James Schlesinger, Melvin Laird, and Elliot Richardson—testified before the Kerry committee, under oath, that intelligence they received at the time convinced them that numbers of unacknowledged prisoners were being held by the Communists, the story was reported by the press just that once and then dropped. The New York Times put the story on page one but never pursued it further to explore the obvious ramifications.
At that public hearing on September 21, 1992, toward the end of Schlesinger's testimony, the former defense secretary, who earlier had been CIA chief, was asked a simple question: "In your view, did we leave men behind?"
He replied: "I think that as of now, I can come to no other conclusion."
He was asked to explain why Nixon would have accepted leaving men behind. He said: "One must assume that we had concluded that the bargaining position of the United States . . . was quite weak. We were anxious to get our troops out and we were not going to roil the waters . . . "
Another example of a story not pursued occurred at the Paris peace talks. The North Vietnamese failed to provide a list of the prisoners until the treaty was signed. Afterward, when they turned over the list, U.S. intelligence officials were taken aback by how many believed prisoners were not included. The Vietnamese were returning only nine men from Laos. American records showed that more than 300 were probably being held. A story about this stunning gap, by New York Times Pentagon reporter John W. Finney, appeared on the paper's front page on February 2, 1973. The story said: "Officials emphasized that the United States would be seeking clarification . . . " No meaningful explanation was ever provided by the Vietnamese or by the Laotian Communist guerrillas, the Pathet Lao, who were satellites of Hanoi.
As a bombshell story for the media, particularly the Washington press corps, it was there for the taking. But there were no takers.
I was drawn to the P.O.W. issue because of my reporting years for The New York Times during the Vietnam War, where I came to believe that our soldiers were being misled and disserved by our government. After the war, military people who knew me and others who knew my work brought me information about live sightings of P.O.W.'s still in captivity and other evidence about their existence. When the Kerry committee was announced (I was by then a columnist at Newsday), I thought the senator—having himself become disillusioned about the Vietnam War, and eventually an advocate against it—might really be committed to digging out the truth. This was wishful thinking.
In the committee's early days, Kerry had given encouraging indications of being a committed investigator. He said he had "leads" to the existence of P.O.W.'s still in captivity. He said the number of these likely survivors was more than 100 and that this was the minimum. But in a very short time, he stopped saying such things and morphed his role into one of full alliance with the executive branch, the Pentagon, and other Washington hierarchies, joining their long-running effort to obscure and deny that a significant number of live American prisoners had not been returned. As many as 700 withheld P.O.W.'s were cited in credible intelligence documents, including a speech by a senior North Vietnamese general that was discovered in Soviet archives by an American scholar.
Here are details of a few of the specific steps Kerry took to hide evidence about these P.O.W.'s.
He gave orders to his committee staff to shred crucial intelligence documents. The shredding stopped only when some intelligence staffers staged a protest. Some wrote internal memos calling for a criminal investigation. One such memo—from John F. McCreary, a lawyer and staff intelligence analyst—reported that the committee's chief counsel, J. William Codinha, a longtime Kerry friend, "ridiculed the staff members" and said, "Who's the injured party?" When staffers cited "the 2,494 families of the unaccounted-for U.S. servicemen, among others," the McCreary memo continued, Codinha said: "Who's going to tell them? It's classified."
Kerry defended the shredding by saying the documents weren't originals, only copies—but the staff's fear was that with the destruction of the copies, the information would never get into the public domain, which it didn't. Kerry had promised the staff that all documents acquired and prepared by the committee would be turned over to the National Archives at the committee's expiration. This didn't happen. Both the staff and independent researchers reported that many critical documents were withheld.
Another protest memo from the staff reported: "An internal Department of Defense Memorandum identifies Frances Zwenig [Kerry's staff director] as the conduit to the Department of Defense for the acquisition of sensitive and restricted information from this Committee . . . lines of investigation have been seriously compromised by leaks" to the Pentagon and "other agencies of the executive branch." It also said the Zwenig leaks were "endangering the lives and livelihood of two witnesses."
A number of staffers became increasingly upset about Kerry's close relationship with the Department of Defense, which was supposed to be under examination. (**** Cheney was then defense secretary.) It had become clear that Kerry, Zwenig, and others close to the chairman, such as Senator John McCain of Arizona, a dominant committee member, had gotten cozy with the officials and agencies supposedly being probed for obscuring P.O.W. information over the years. Committee hearings, for example, were being orchestrated to suit the examinees, who were receiving lists of potential questions in advance. Another internal memo from the period, by a staffer who requested anonymity, said: "Speaking for the other investigators, I can say we are sick and tired of this investigation being controlled by those we are supposedly investigating."
The Kerry investigative technique was equally soft in many other critical ways. He rejected all suggestions that the committee require former presidents Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and George H.W. Bush to testify. All were in the Oval Office during the Vietnam era and its aftermath. They had information critical to the committee, for each president was carefully and regularly briefed by his national security adviser and others about P.O.W. developments. It was a huge issue at that time.
Kerry also refused to subpoena the Nixon office tapes (yes, the Watergate tapes) from the early months of 1973 when the P.O.W.'s were an intense subject because of the peace talks and the prisoner return that followed. (Nixon had rejected committee requests to provide the tapes voluntarily.) Information had seeped out for years that during the Paris talks and afterward, Nixon had been briefed in detail by then national security advisor Brent Scowcroft and others about the existence of P.O.W.'s whom Hanoi was not admitting to. Nixon, distracted by Watergate, apparently decided it was crucial to get out of the Vietnam mess immediately, even if it cost those lives. Maybe he thought there would be other chances down the road to bring these men back. So he approved the peace treaty and on March 29, 1973, the day the last of the 591 acknowledged prisoners were released in Hanoi, Nixon announced on national television: "All of our American P.O.W.'s are on their way home."
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The Kerry committee's final report, issued in January 1993, delivered the ultimate insult to history. The 1,223-page document said there was "no compelling evidence that proves" there is anyone still in captivity. As for the primary investigative question —what happened to the men left behind in 1973—the report conceded only that there is "evidence . . . that indicates the possibility of survival, at least for a small number" of prisoners 31 years ago, after Hanoi released the 591 P.O.W.'s it had admitted to.
With these word games, the committee report buried the issue—and the men.
The huge document contained no findings about what happened to the supposedly "small number." If they were no longer alive, then how did they die? Were they executed when ransom offers were rejected by Washington?
Kerry now slides past all the radio messages, satellite photos, live sightings, and boxes of intelligence documents—all the evidence. In his comments for this piece, this candidate for the presidency said: "No nation has gone to the lengths that we did to account for their dead. None—ever in history."
Of the so-called "possibility" of a "small number" of men left behind, the committee report went on to say that if this did happen, the men were not "knowingly abandoned," just "shunted aside." How do you put that on a gravestone?
In the end, the fact that Senator Kerry covered up crucial evidence as committee chairman didn't seem to bother too many Massachusetts voters when he came up for re-election—or the recent voters in primary states. So I wouldn't predict it will be much of an issue in the presidential election come November. It seems there is no constituency in America for missing Vietnam P.O.W.'s except for their families and some veterans of that war.
A year after he issued the committee report, on the night of January 26, 1994, Kerry was on the Senate floor pushing through a resolution calling on President Clinton to lift the 19-year-old trade embargo against Vietnam. In the debate, Kerry belittled the opposition, saying that those who still believed in abandoned P.O.W.'s were perpetrating a hoax. "This process," he declaimed, "has been led by a certain number of charlatans and exploiters, and we should not allow fiction to cloud what we are trying to do here."
Kerry's resolution passed, by a vote of 62 to 38. Sadly for him, the passage of ten thousand resolutions cannot make up for wants in a man's character.
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Additional research: Jennifer Suh
basket of soft kittens
02-25-2004, 11:01 PM
..........................................................................................................................................................a-hole............................................
this is a sad day
George W. Bush
02-26-2004, 12:04 AM
John Kerry is a major asshole.
Va_Dinger
02-26-2004, 12:09 AM
Were was our presidents courage HIDING in the National Gaurd during Vietnam? In a unit filled with the sons of Senators, Congressmen, and extremely wealthy. All of them wanted a military record and didn't have the balls to earn it.
Tane Angle
02-26-2004, 10:25 AM
The authors got some of their facts wrong, but it remains a travesty that we left our men behind and did not go back for them.
Eric L. Haney, one of the founding members of Delta Force talks about this cover-up in his book "Inside Delta Force". He was "knee deep" in that whole thing and he doesnt implicate Kerry. I suggest you read it.............
Kerry was a war hero, no doubt. He risked his life to save others. Nobody here has the right to question that. Its a travesty to call him a coward. You people are the real cowards. Your just partisan assholes looking for any peice of tabloid trash to put down a real war hero and bring up a F'ing reject wannabe soldier like George Bush whom nobody seems to remmmeber actually doing a damn thing in the national guard.......
You guys make me sick and you should be ashamed of yourselves to latch on to some tabloid trash in a partisan way to try to bring down a true American soldier and a hero who volunteered for the riverboat unit that was taking 75% casualty rate at time he entered it. He was wounded three times in battle and even his fellow boat mates who are now all Republican call him a "true hero in every sense of word and a brother".
You mother F U C K E R S on the other had are complete loosers and deserve to rot. No war hero should be talked about like you have said things. Do you have no respect at all or what?? What kind of sick bastards are you?? You dont know if Kerry had a damn thing to do with the cover up or not. You just play along with election year crap..Again, you are a disgrace. The real A-hole is pretty boy Bush who never served in active duty, never served in a warzone, and only showed up for 3 days of service out of his period and thats according to his own press secretary!!!!! Records show he only was there a few days!!! hahahaha now thats a real coward and a real joke..........I did more time at ROTC than Bush did in the national guard.
Simple fact: John Kerry is a decorated war hero. He is a citizen soldier. He has three purple hearts and a silver star. ANYBODY here who dares to call him an "a-hole" from speculative journalism is a disgrace to the uniform and should be taken out and shot in the streets as such......
Sixgun Symphony
02-27-2004, 01:33 AM
Everything said here about President Bush hiding in the Air National Guard is true.
But as far as John Kerry's war hero status, he threw that away by supporting the Viet Cong when he got back from the war.
War hero? Let me point out that Benedict Arnold was an American war hero of before he turned.
I wish there was someone to vote for in this election. But I will have to vote for the lesser of two evils, and that is George Bush.
Beowulf
02-27-2004, 01:47 AM
Eric L. Haney, one of the founding members of Delta Force talks about this cover-up in his book "Inside Delta Force". He was "knee deep" in that whole thing and he doesnt implicate Kerry. I suggest you read it.............
Kerry was a war hero, no doubt. He risked his life to save others. Nobody here has the right to question that. Its a travesty to call him a coward. You people are the real cowards. Your just partisan assholes looking for any peice of tabloid trash to put down a real war hero and bring up a F'ing reject wannabe soldier like George Bush whom nobody seems to remmmeber actually doing a damn thing in the national guard.......
You guys make me sick and you should be ashamed of yourselves to latch on to some tabloid trash in a partisan way to try to bring down a true American soldier and a hero who volunteered for the riverboat unit that was taking 75% casualty rate at time he entered it. He was wounded three times in battle and even his fellow boat mates who are now all Republican call him a "true hero in every sense of word and a brother".
You mother F U C K E R S on the other had are complete loosers and deserve to rot. No war hero should be talked about like you have said things. Do you have no respect at all or what?? What kind of sick bastards are you?? You dont know if Kerry had a damn thing to do with the cover up or not. You just play along with election year crap..Again, you are a disgrace. The real A-hole is pretty boy Bush who never served in active duty, never served in a warzone, and only showed up for 3 days of service out of his period and thats according to his own press secretary!!!!! Records show he only was there a few days!!! hahahaha now thats a real coward and a real joke..........I did more time at ROTC than Bush did in the national guard.
Simple fact: John Kerry is a decorated war hero. He is a citizen soldier. He has three purple hearts and a silver star. ANYBODY here who dares to call him an "a-hole" from speculative journalism is a disgrace to the uniform and should be taken out and shot in the streets as such......
You are completely full of ****.
So if someone calls Kerry an A-hole they should be shot, but you can say whatever you want about the CinC?
Bull****.
Six-gun, I have to respectfully disagree with you that John Kerry "threw away" his war hero status by supporting the Viet Cong. Kerry had reservations about the war even while serving. He came out of the war dissillusioned with it. Let me ask you something Six gun: Were you there?Did you kill? Did you see innocent women killed? Were you wounded? Did you watch your buddies die off?
Well Kerry did and no doubt he asked each time: "Was this worth it"?. He came to the conclusion that it wasnt. He concluded that the war was wrong, the Vietnamese did not want us there, and it was a fruitless and pointless war. Kerry was not "for the Viet Kong" as you accuse him to be. He was simply against the war. There is a big difference. Its the classic argument pro-war nuts use and its flawed to its core.... Being against a war you see as morally wrong doesnt mean you are against America or for the "enemy". You can very much be a patriot and not support a war. It all depends on your motivation.
John Kerry won his silver star for jumping out of his boat and chasing down a VC with a rocket launcher that was going to kill his buddies and he gunned him down first. Then he risked his life to go back through an enemy ambush to rescue a commando who had fallen off his boat after it hit a mine and blew up. Then he risked his life to make sure a "suspicious group of people" were really enemy before opening fire on them. He walked up alone to the group. Turns out they were just a frightined group of women. According to testimony from his own freinds, everyone else was ordered to gun them down but Kerry risked his life to make sure he was doing the right thing and not something immoral. This is the mean you so boldly call an "a-hole" and a "coward" and a "disgrace". In four months service he was wounded 4 times. He was allowed to change post because Army regualtions stated that ounce a man survived four woundings he "deserved" a new post. The fact that John Kerry was wounded so man times attests to his bravery in battle. And if you dont believe me, just ask his Republican freinds who now run his campaign......
That itself is a disgrace that you would dare to say such things about such a brave and selfless man. John Kerry was most definately not "supporting the Viet Cong" as you say. His record of killing them by the dozens attests to that.
Again, your just spouting off more excuses to diss John Kerry. Again, the man was a war hero and going against the immoral vietnam war was not "supporting the enemy" as you accuse him of doing. His motivations were to leave that pointless war and get our boys home before more died for noting more than to protect thier friends.
IF you were to ask a young GI in Vietnam what he was fighitng for politically he would say "not a damn thing". Ask him what he was fighting for and he would say "I dont want my buddies to get killed. I fight for them and myself".
If you are to ask a Green Beret in A-stan today what he is fighting for I have no doubt he would say first: "my freinds and teamates beside me AND to protect my nation from terrorists who attacked it".
That my freind is the difference between a war that is meaningful and moral and right and just and a war, such as Vietnam, that is pointless and freuitless and immoral..........the type of war John Kerry fought to get us out of and the type of war you call him a "traitor" for oppossing. I'm sorry but I firmly believe it is a travesty for someone like you Sixgun, who never fought in Vietnam, to judge a man for oppossing a war he fought in and came home not believing in. Like I said, he lost freinds there and not you. He was wounded there and not you. He killed there and not you. Perhaps then he has more wisdom and more right to judge himself whether Vietnam was meaningful or not than you do. Just a thought........
And yes Beowulf I can say that Bush never served a day in combat and he showed up for duty for 3 days out of his term. Thats a fact as quoted off his press secretary. Bush served in a unit with alot of other Senators sons. It served its purpose as a unit for future polticians so they could say things like "I served my country" while avoiding the dangers that poor young American boys had to face in Vietnam. Fortunately, there were people like John Kerry, a Yale grad, who didnt shirk his duties and didnt shy away from combat and join a cushy NG unit that would never fight. Unlike Bush, Kerry showed up for more than three days. In fact, Kerry was wounded as many times as Bush actually showed for duty.
Unfortunatley, people like you like to ignore Kerry's service and Bush's lack of service and instead focus on some lame rumors that Kerry was involved in covering up American MIA/POW's in 'nam. I say again, read Eric L. Haney, Command Sgt. Major (ret.) and founding member of Delta Force's book, "Inside Detla Force". He talks about this issue near the end of the book as a reason for his leaving the service.....He never ounce implicates Kerry and I believe Haney was deeply involved in the operations at the time. In fact, he asserts to have knowledge of recon ops that actually located these POW's. According to him, the CIA was heavily involved in the cover-up.
Haney mentions suspicious things like the TV appearance of retired special forces Lt. Colonel "Bo" Gritz on national TV in 1982 talking about mission to rescue POWS which blew thier operation. Again, during a later op the same thing happens. He suspects a CIA attempt to blow the mission. He actually blames the Nixon whitehous and its treaty in Paris in 1973 "peace with honor" deal that hurridly tried to get the wat over with. The Vietnamese were holding the prisoners as trump cards but after watergate and Nixons implosion the Vietnamese just killed them and scattered the bodies........
According to Haney, the cover up ran much higher than Senator John Kerry who would have had little power at the time to affect active CIA ops and covert missions like the rescue of American POW's in Vietnam.......Here is a quote from the book: "It is my personal belief that the CIA was the chief agency in weilding its power to thwart Delta's recovery operation". Im sorry but it seems dubious at best that John Kerry was telling the CIA what to thwart and what not to thwart back in 1982.
Eric L. Haney, one of the founding members of Delta Force talks about this cover-up in his book "Inside Delta Force". He was "knee deep" in that whole thing and he doesnt implicate Kerry. I suggest you read it.............
I have, and Haney doesn't point out specifically much people either. Also, he wasn't knee deep, and doesn't spend too much time on the subject.(Plus, If my memory is correct, wasn't his op back in the 80s and Kerry's involvement in this in the 90s?)
Off Topic: Also saw Haney on Fox News a couple of times this week.
Beowulf
02-27-2004, 02:51 AM
people like you like to ignore Kerry's service and Bush's lack of service and instead focus on some lame rumors that Kerry was involved in covering up American MIA/POW's in 'nam.
People like me? You don't know me, or my background.
I don't really care what either one of them did during the war as long as they are honest about it. It's what Kerry did after the war that bothers me.
I just called bull**** on your petulant rant b/c you go on and on about how little respect you have for the President of the United States and then say that anyone that calls Kerry an A-hole should be shot, and is a disgrace to the uniform.
Well I dislike Kerry, I think he gave aid and comfort to the enemy and made the lives of POW's more difficult. I base this view upon my own research and upon the word of a POW. Tell me obd, am I a disgrace to the uniform? Should I be dragged in the street and shot?
I tell you what you come and tear the SF combat patch from my class A's if you feel so strongly about defending Kerry; and yes, I earned my ****.
....Polesmoker
Thats exactly my point. One thing Haney does say with certainty is that all known MIA/POW in cambodia/Vietnam were dead prior to 1983. He asserts that after the scrubbing of the mission it became clear that the US Govnt told the Vietnamese to get rid of the POW's ounce and for all and spread thier remains out never to be found again.........This was in 1982, far before Kerry could have possibly had anything to do with it. As with regards to the suppossed 1990's cover ups. are you kidding me?? Do you actually believe that election year crap? Please. Spare me.
Haney was involved in preperation for a rescue attempt. Actually, I just picked it up a re-read the part where he talks of this and he does implicate the CIA as well as Nixon's early policies and his "withdrawing with honor" crap, and several "very high level" politicians in office in 1980's....... He also knew several Delta who were in Cambodia doing prep for the rescue. I imagine these were part of his team who were in final stages of intel gathering and training to go do the rescue. Thats "knee deep" in my book. After reading his book, and with respect to his rank and experience, I trust the man knows what he is talking about.
Also, with regards to his spending a short time on it, he mentions at beginning that it is extremely painful for him to talk about, as he is very patriotic and its hard for him to deal with his governments betrayal, so he would keep it short. He also mentions the two Delta who spoke out about it and were crushed by CIA and govnt who basically destroyed thier service records and honor. Im sure Haney was more involved than he could say. After all, even some things from Vietnam are dirty dark little secrets that can get you very much dead if you arnt careful.......
I think its telling that he would go so far as to suggest "certain VERY high level" politicians and the CIA. Of course, things like this are mandated by the president as the CIA many times gets secret presidential findings for things of this nature. I believe Haney when he blames the CIA and I also think its possible, but I seriously doubt, that the CIA acted alone on such a major thing to do........I agree with Haney: "Alot of people in Washington had POW blood on their hands and wanted a cover up of abandoning them for poltical expediancy".
"Aid and comfort to the enemy"?? Oh so now you are accusing Kerry, a reciever of the silver star and 3 purple hearts of treason??!??
I could go down to Ft. Bragg right now and pic up a SF combat badge if I wished. Its easy. I live a good runs distance from base. There are lots of posers out there.
****, I will believe your combat badge when I see it. Tell me Beowulf, what class were you, what years did you serve, where and with what unit? Did you come through Bragg? Where were you stationed? What posts? etc etc.... (no, airsoft doesnt count)
Oh waite, thats probably all top secret right??
By the way, you failed to respond to anything else I said. I guess that means you liked it and agreed with it, otherwise you would have chosen a different quote of mine to go against instead of some smalll little part............. I will repeat it for you just in case.
((At least you are saying you dislike Kerry for what he did later. I have no problems with that. All I have problems with is people calling him a coward, traitor, asshole, scumbag, and every other dirty name in the book. I think it is disgraceful to call a heroic veteran such things.))
Six-gun, I have to respectfully disagree with you that John Kerry "threw away" his war hero status by supporting the Viet Cong. Kerry had reservations about the war even while serving. He came out of the war dissillusioned with it. Let me ask you something Six gun: Were you there?Did you kill? Did you see innocent women killed? Were you wounded? Did you watch your buddies die off?
Well Kerry did and no doubt he asked each time: "Was this worth it"?. He came to the conclusion that it wasnt. He concluded that the war was wrong, the Vietnamese did not want us there, and it was a fruitless and pointless war. Kerry was not "for the Viet Kong" as you accuse him to be. He was simply against the war. There is a big difference. Its the classic argument pro-war nuts use and its flawed to its core.... Being against a war you see as morally wrong doesnt mean you are against America or for the "enemy". You can very much be a patriot and not support a war. It all depends on your motivation.
John Kerry won his silver star for jumping out of his boat and chasing down a VC with a rocket launcher that was going to kill his buddies and he gunned him down first. Then he risked his life to go back through an enemy ambush to rescue a commando who had fallen off his boat after it hit a mine and blew up. Then he risked his life to make sure a "suspicious group of people" were really enemy before opening fire on them. He walked up alone to the group. Turns out they were just a frightined group of women. According to testimony from his own freinds, everyone else was ordered to gun them down but Kerry risked his life to make sure he was doing the right thing and not something immoral. This is the mean you so boldly call an "a-hole" and a "coward" and a "disgrace". In four months service he was wounded 4 times. He was allowed to change post because Army regualtions stated that ounce a man survived four woundings he "deserved" a new post. The fact that John Kerry was wounded so man times attests to his bravery in battle. And if you dont believe me, just ask his Republican freinds who now run his campaign......
That itself is a disgrace that you would dare to say such things about such a brave and selfless man. John Kerry was most definately not "supporting the Viet Cong" as you say. His record of killing them by the dozens attests to that.
Again, your just spouting off more excuses to diss John Kerry. Again, the man was a war hero and going against the immoral vietnam war was not "supporting the enemy" as you accuse him of doing. His motivations were to leave that pointless war and get our boys home before more died for noting more than to protect thier friends.
IF you were to ask a young GI in Vietnam what he was fighitng for politically he would say "not a damn thing". Ask him what he was fighting for and he would say "I dont want my buddies to get killed. I fight for them and myself".
If you are to ask a Green Beret in A-stan today what he is fighting for I have no doubt he would say first: "my freinds and teamates beside me AND to protect my nation from terrorists who attacked it".
That my freind is the difference between a war that is meaningful and moral and right and just and a war, such as Vietnam, that is pointless and freuitless and immoral..........the type of war John Kerry fought to get us out of and the type of war you call him a "traitor" for oppossing. I'm sorry but I firmly believe it is a travesty for someone like you Sixgun, who never fought in Vietnam, to judge a man for oppossing a war he fought in and came home not believing in. Like I said, he lost freinds there and not you. He was wounded there and not you. He killed there and not you. Perhaps then he has more wisdom and more right to judge himself whether Vietnam was meaningful or not than you do. Just a thought........
And yes Beowulf I can say that Bush never served a day in combat and he showed up for duty for 3 days out of his term. Thats a fact as quoted off his press secretary. Bush served in a unit with alot of other Senators sons. It served its purpose as a unit for future polticians so they could say things like "I served my country" while avoiding the dangers that poor young American boys had to face in Vietnam. Fortunately, there were people like John Kerry, a Yale grad, who didnt shirk his duties and didnt shy away from combat and join a cushy NG unit that would never fight. Unlike Bush, Kerry showed up for more than three days. In fact, Kerry was wounded as many times as Bush actually showed for duty.
Unfortunatley, people like you like to ignore Kerry's service and Bush's lack of service and instead focus on some lame rumors that Kerry was involved in covering up American MIA/POW's in 'nam. I say again, read Eric L. Haney, Command Sgt. Major (ret.) and founding member of Delta Force's book, "Inside Detla Force". He talks about this issue near the end of the book as a reason for his leaving the service.....He never ounce implicates Kerry and I believe Haney was deeply involved in the operations at the time. In fact, he asserts to have knowledge of recon ops that actually located these POW's. According to him, the CIA was heavily involved in the cover-up.
Haney mentions suspicious things like the TV appearance of retired special forces Lt. Colonel "Bo" Gritz on national TV in 1982 talking about mission to rescue POWS which blew thier operation. Again, during a later op the same thing happens. He suspects a CIA attempt to blow the mission. He actually blames the Nixon whitehous and its treaty in Paris in 1973 "peace with honor" deal that hurridly tried to get the wat over with. The Vietnamese were holding the prisoners as trump cards but after watergate and Nixons implosion the Vietnamese just killed them and scattered the bodies........
According to Haney, the cover up ran much higher than Senator John Kerry who would have had little power at the time to affect active CIA ops and covert missions like the rescue of American POW's in Vietnam.......Here is a quote from the book: "It is my personal belief that the CIA was the chief agency in weilding its power to thwart Delta's recovery operation". Im sorry but it seems dubious at best that John Kerry was telling the CIA what to thwart and what not to thwart back in 1982.
Sixgun Symphony
02-27-2004, 03:20 AM
"Aid and comfort to the enemy"?? Oh so now you are accusing Kerry, a reciever of the silver star and 3 purple hearts of treason??!??
Might I point out that Benedict Arnold was a war hero, wounded in action?
Few today are aware of it because Benedict Arnold had later betrayed his country.
Sixgun Symphony
02-27-2004, 03:26 AM
"
Six-gun, I have to respectfully disagree with you that John Kerry "threw away" his war hero status by supporting the Viet Cong. Kerry had reservations about the war even while serving. He came out of the war dissillusioned with it. Let me ask you something Six gun: Were you there?Did you kill? Did you see innocent women killed? Were you wounded? Did you watch your buddies die off?
Vietnam was before my time. I served in the navy back in the 1980's and I never had to shoot anyone.
The gist of your post is irrelevent. I compare John Kerry with Benedict Arnold because Benedict Arnold was a war hero that ultimately betrayed his country.
You don't need to be a war hero to condemn Benedict Arnold, nor John Kerry for that matter.
John Kerry supported the Viet Cong and hurt alot of American POW's. I think John Kerry should pack up and move to Hanoi.
the gist of your argument is pointless in fact. I never said a war hero could not betray his country and just becuase B. Arnold was a war hero and later betrayed his country it has nothng at all to do with Kerry. What I did say is that it is disgracefull to call Kerry, a war hero by all accounts, things like "Asshole" and "traitor" on such shoddy election year "evidence" if thats what you want to call it.
What I find disgracefull is that people who really dont know what happened just call Kerry such disgraceful things based on murky ,obscure, and unsubstantiated reports. Its like they are willng to completely ignore the fact that he is a honored war vet and believe these insane accusations as if they were fact without question!!! It amazes me and its clearly realted to partisanism. It just makes me sick.
I guess what I am trying to say is that people are out looking for trash on both Republicans and Democrats and as soon as they smell it they start letting accusations fly even if the supposed "fact" came from a street bum. This is disgracefull, especially to honored war veterans and hero's of this nation like Kerry......thats all I am saying....
If I personally knew that Beowulf was a SF vet and had earned his combat badge and then someone on this forum started calling him a traitor then I wold not go around repeating it as if it were a fact just because I heard it. Out of respect to him I would keep my mouth shut about what other people I didnt know said about the man until I gathered my evidence. I would especially keep my outh shut if that information came from a source that was already proven unturthful in the past...... I certainly wouldnt go around calling Beowulf "traitor" or "scum" when I had no real evidence to back it up and when all the evidence actually pointed in the other direction..............
Again Six gun, I repeat my asking of you to give me examples of how exactly John Kerry "hurt" American POW's and "betrayed" them.....Instead of just letting fly with accusations, why dont you explain them. I am willign to listen.....Its just that all evidence I have heard points to Kerry being a compassionate, brave, dedicated man. I read all about his purple hearts, his silver star, his comendations from his men and from his commanding officers so naturally I would be a little skeptical when out of the blue someone like you up and accuses the man of being a traitor.............
Sixgun Symphony
02-27-2004, 03:48 AM
The guy was a cheerleader for the VietCong.
His organization, the "Vietnam Veterans Against the War" were photographed many times while flying the VietCong flags at their street rallies.
Those VietCong flags and the communist clenched fist salute. I gotta wonder if this ain't the Manchurien candidate.
Hurting the POW's? You need to read what John McCain had to say. I will look for this article and post it as soon as I locate it.
James
02-27-2004, 04:01 AM
Obd,
Beowulf is a BTDT. Stop embarrassing yourself.
Flagg
02-27-2004, 04:15 AM
I could go down to Ft. Bragg right now and pic up a SF combat badge if I wished. Its easy. I live a good runs distance from base. There are lots of posers out there.
****, I will believe your combat badge when I see it. Tell me Beowulf, what class were you, what years did you serve, where and with what unit? Did you come through Bragg? Where were you stationed? What posts? etc etc.... (no, airsoft doesnt count)
Oh waite, thats probably all top secret right??
PSsssssst.......obd......ummmmm......guess what?
Beowulf IS the real deal
You would have known that had you lurked for a bit and learned a thing or two about the members and moderators here before you used all of your brain's available oxygen to enlighten us as to how things really are.
As we're all aware your noisehole is still functional.....you may wish to use it to make a brief apology before you continue on your rant.
mocking_loudly_died
02-27-2004, 04:51 AM
I could go down to Ft. Bragg right now and pic up a SF combat badge if I wished. Its easy. I live a good runs distance from base. There are lots of posers out there.
Man thats way out of line.
Beowulf and I may well come from different political angles, but he rocks and you need to tone down those tirades.
Honestly people, I dont think Beowulf should take any offense by my being at least somewhat skeptical of his claims considering all the posers on this site. I hear, "Im special forces" all the time so naturally I tend to be a little skeptical of people who seem all too ready to flaunt it, not to say thats what he was doing but you get my point. Beowulf: My bad and try not to take any offense. I noticed you were a moderator and thought it most likely you were telling truth but you never know.
Also, I hope you still understand the points of what I was saying about it being wrong to give benefit of the doubt to a trashy rag mag report that comes out during an election year about a war hero like Kerry.
Also I think and hope you understand my anger at people (not you specifically) who never fought in any war let alone Vietnam, called him a traitor for appossing the war when he also fought a shed blood in that war and they didnt. I hope you "get me" on that one and agree. Im not saying Kerry is an angel and didnt do things after the war that turned you away from him as you say but I hope his making the personal choice to oppose the war isnt one of your reasons....I believe a person who kills, sheds blood, and looses freinds has a right to question the morality of any war he is in or was in. Its only natural. And although I can disagree with veterans about certain wars I also will always respect thier opinions and would never call them a "traitor" or "coward" for thier choices. I may disagree with them but I will always keep in mind that it was they who made the sacrifice and not I so I MUST show them respect for it.
I also hope you still understand that being against a war is not "siding with the enemy". If you think a war is dangerous for your nation in the long run like for example if you think there are other dangers or you think it is just plain morally wrong that I hope you understand it takes a patriot to stand up and say "this war is wrong". Oftentimes those people are imediately labeled as traitors and spies and this is wrong in my opinion. We must always respect, especially in times of war, those people who disagree. War is serious buisness and people have a right and I believe an obligation to stand against a war if he/she feels it morally wrong or against the nations principles or counter to national security (like if Bush declared war on China tommorrow because they stole Michael Jacksons DVD'sfor example). Of course thats a stupid reason to go to war and Bush wouldnt do that but you get my point...... Its too dangerous to quash dissetors in times of war. War is too serious an issua for a nation not to hear all sides or as many as possible.....
I support Gulf War 2 just in case you are wondering and I would support a war with North Korea as well just in case you are wondering (even though that would virtually gauruntee that I got sent to Korea).....and I demonstrated in my home town in support of our troops and got cursed out as "a racists" (dont understand why I was called that but I think because there were old white men with shaved heads next to me that some African Americans just assumed it was a KKK rally which is strange because we had huge signs saying "support our troops" etc....maybe they were just being racist themselves by accussing us of being racist because we were white and holding signs.... but waite there were about 10 blacks with us.....oh well I guess I still dont get that one then hehehehehe), I was flicked off and called a brain dead pathetic supporter of Bush etc etc etc....Simple fact is I hate Bush. I think he is a fool and is bad for this nation. I didnt vote for him the first time and I wont be voting for him this time and I pray for the good of this nation that he is not re-elected. Those are my own opinions and Im sure some of you are avid supporters of Bush but I also support him in this war because I think it is a justified war whether there are WMD found or not.........
Va_Dinger
02-27-2004, 09:08 AM
people like you like to ignore Kerry's service and Bush's lack of service and instead focus on some lame rumors that Kerry was involved in covering up American MIA/POW's in 'nam.
People like me? You don't know me, or my background.
I don't really care what either one of them did during the war as long as they are honest about it. It's what Kerry did after the war that bothers me.
I just called bull**** on your petulant rant b/c you go on and on about how little respect you have for the President of the United States and then say that anyone that calls Kerry an A-hole should be shot, and is a disgrace to the uniform.
Well I dislike Kerry, I think he gave aid and comfort to the enemy and made the lives of POW's more difficult. I base this view upon my own research and upon the word of a POW. Tell me obd, am I a disgrace to the uniform? Should I be dragged in the street and shot?
I tell you what you come and tear the SF combat patch from my class A's if you feel so strongly about defending Kerry; and yes, I earned my ****.
....Polesmoker
Is this the same "Beowulf" who started posting on this forum as an aircraft mechanic contractor in Afghanistan? I remember a guy on his forum who went by the same name, he was no SF?
Trigger
02-27-2004, 11:58 AM
You mother F U C K E R S on the other had are complete loosers and deserve to rot.
and
Were you there?Did you kill? Did you see innocent women killed? Were you wounded? Did you watch your buddies die off?
I did more time at ROTC than Bush did in the national guard.
Will a moderator kindly enforce the rules and ban this piece of sh*t
Were you? Did you? Doubtful P.S. STFU
Well let's all line up and kiss your ass. You talk a lot of trash for a n00b. Your rabid defense of Kerry is just as bad as the defense of Bush you complain so much about. Get a clue Scooby-Doo.
Actually to correct you TRIGGER, I wasnt so focused on attacking those people who defend Bush as I was focused on attacking those people who called Kerry a "coward", "traitor", and "asshole". Get it right. If the moderators want to ban me for this than so be it......I guess when you question a moderator its time for you to get banned by the aristocracy of this forum then eh? So much for freedom of speech and ideas on the internet.
I will say this, other people on this forum have said far worse things than I and not been banned at all. There are those on this forum who use far more curse words than I as well. If the moderators ban me than it will be clear why they did it. Everyone will know its not for cursing but for quesitoning a moderator .
Still wont change the fact that attacking Kerry, a war hero with 3 purple hearts and a silver star, based on erroneous information from the tabloid press makes you a fool and a disgrace........sorry
Why dont we just ban all members who speak out against such unsubstantiated crap posted about a war hero.....well unless they speek out against bad things said about Bush of course.
By the way TRIGGER, did you actually read what I said or see the "MOTHER F'ers" thing and call it a day?
Do you really think that, beyond my use of a curse word, what I said did not contribute to this forum and I should be banned for it?? Do you disagree with the fundementals of my argument??
Trigger
02-27-2004, 12:32 PM
Regardless of your 'focus' your defense of Kerry was every bit as rabid as those you complain about.
Regardless of how many bullets he took or how many medals he was given, if he turns his back on his fellow servicemen and joins a Jane Fonda protest group, that makes him a certified A-hole in my book.
Regardless of how important you feel by claiming to be put down by 'the mods' for your opinions, if you were to get banned it would be for repeated use of abusive language towards many people.
So much for freedom of speech on the internet? Show me where that one is guaranteed in the constitution. This isn't your house and you need to realize that.
By the way obd, you didn't answer my question. Did you serve with Kerry? Did you witness anything?
How the hell do you know any more than the average reader?
JiJoMacLE45
02-27-2004, 12:38 PM
Trigger, you can be my moderator any day.
mustamato
02-27-2004, 12:40 PM
How lame. Kerry is a decorated war hero. Enough said.
First off Trigger, I have been guilty of using no more abusive language towards others than a heck of alot of other people on this forum. I just finished perusing the various posts and I can tell you that people get attacked all the time for what they say, just as you have attacked me. Its called debate. And if you want to focus on my "abusive" language than fine but Im not the only one and I really dont use it often, only rarely when I get angry and I probbably need to work on that.
And yes, this isnt my house. Im simply a member of a forum. But, the goals of this forum are to provide a place for people to discuss military issues or political ones relating to the military and such. In recent times it has even expanded to include a humor and off topic section to serve even more diverse interests.....so yes TRIGGER although it soesnt explicitly state it, I think the goals of the creator and moderators of this forum are very clear.
And I will answer your question about how I know so much: Testimony from first hand accounts from his crew members. First hand testimony from his commanding officers. Official Military records published in newspapers of his service. These things are all out there for inquiring minds who want to know and not just those looking for mud to sling about him. But of course you probably wouldnt be interested in that stuff since it might challenge your assessment of Kerry as an "a-hole".
Odd how a man can do so much good and be honored by so many things and then discounted completely because he went against the war. Funny how on the scales of whether he is a good guy to you or an "a-hole" to you, his going against the war clearly more than equals his 3 purple hearts, silver star, his records of service to his nation, first hand accounts from his crewmen about his honor and heroism etc.
I suggest you read about how he won his silver star and his three purple hearts TRIGGER and maybe you will give him a better name than "a-hole".
In addition, if you care to, there is alot more to the man than that and a great number of people who seved over him, served under him, and served with him can account to that. These people come from various political sides: Republican and Democrats alike I think the fact that all who served with Kerry call him a hero makes it pretty clear. Also if oyu noticed that several people helping to run his campaign are staunch republicans. Just goes to show you how much honor and respect that man has from those who served with him.
I cna only wonder how they would feel for someone like you TRIGGER, who never served with him and probably never met him (as I have briefly) calling him an "a-hole". I honestly think you would stand a good chance of getting shot and Im not trying to threaten you at all or in any way. I grew up living in a retirement comunity with lots of WW2 vets, Korea vets, and even many Vietnam vets and I can tell you TRIGGER, they dont take too kindly to having anyone in thier band of brothers called an "a-hole" by someone like you so I quite frankly you shouldnt be telling people around here to watch thier mouths as you are the one who needs to watch his own mouth!!!!
Also I think and hope you understand my anger at people (not you specifically) who never fought in any war let alone Vietnam, called him a traitor for appossing the war when he also fought a shed blood in that war and they didnt. I hope you "get me" on that one and agree. Im not saying Kerry is an angel and didnt do things after the war that turned you away from him as you say but I hope his making the personal choice to oppose the war isnt one of your reasons....I believe a person who kills, sheds blood, and looses freinds has a right to question the morality of any war he is in or was in. Its only natural. And although I can disagree with veterans about certain wars I also will always respect thier opinions and would never call them a "traitor" or "coward" for thier choices. I may disagree with them but I will always keep in mind that it was they who made the sacrifice and not I so I MUST show them respect for it.
JiJoMacLE45
02-27-2004, 01:05 PM
You used the longest run on sentence in the history of sentences. Punction, man, punction. My dear boy, it's hard to take you seriously when your English is so bad.
pinkeye
02-27-2004, 01:11 PM
sine i initially posted this article and happen to be quite liberal, i wish to point out that kerry's record on issues needs to be examined thoroughly if he is to be elected. unfortunately i wish more republicans would do the same with bush and wake the hell up. no free passes to the office of the presidency.
and for those on this messageboard advocating blind obedience to authority, you need to seriously reconsider your values. remember nazi germany? too many damn sheep!!
i respect kerry for speaking out against the vietnam war, as did many other veterans. the vietnam war was a mistake. it was not a just war. americans and vietnamese suffered needlessly. go see the excellent documentary "the fog of war" for more information.
Trigger
02-27-2004, 01:23 PM
obd wrote:
I grew up living in a retirement comunity with lots of WW2 vets, Korea vets, and even many Vietnam vets and I can tell you TRIGGER, they dont take too kindly to having anyone in thier band of brothers called an "a-hole" by someone like you so I quite frankly you shouldnt be telling people around here to watch thier mouths as you are the one who needs to watch his own mouth!!!!
All I can say ask is: how would all of your retired friends react to one of their 'band of brothers' joining the most vitriolic of anti-war movements of the time? How would they feel if their 'brother' was part of a group that proudly posed with the enemy soldiers and equipment that was responsible for the deaths and capture and torture of some of their other 'brothers'?
For the record: I respect his service completely. That doesn't mean he didn't become an A-hole later.
See you at the voting booth. ;)
you see thats really the funny thing TRIGGER because I see YOU calling him a coward and a traitor and an a-hole but then I see HIS MEN who served with him calling him a hero and a brother. You see thats just my problem with you TRIGGER. You have the balls to call a guy an "a-hole" for turning against the war and his men and the real truth of the matter is that his men dont see it that way. Its not as if a sudden revelation was released yesterday that Kerry was against the war. He made it clear he didnt support it even while he was there. In fact, it is during those bloody and heroic months he spent on the delta rivers that he decided it just wasnt worth his blood and the blood of his brothers in arms.....
You see, those very people you ask about, those very ones you wonder "how they would react". Well I can tell you very easily. They still call him a hero and a brother because they, lke me, recognize that being against a war does not mean you are a traitor. In fact, Kerry was a patriot. I guess you just cant get that through your thick skull. Im just glad Kerry's brothers in arms, the war veterans of Vietnam who served with him, understand my point though..........which is exactly why all the surviving members of his boat crew accept for one who is missing are now serving with him as part of his Democratic campaign and guess what; THEY ARE REPUBLICANS!!!!! Jeez TRIGGER, get it through your skull and grow up a little and stop being a partisan a-holoe yourself and stop disgracinh honorable war veterans. You really do make me sick to my stomach............
Beowulf
02-27-2004, 02:08 PM
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/
http://www.vnsfvetakerry.com/
Beowulf
02-27-2004, 02:15 PM
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/
http://www.vnsfvetakerry.com/
The point is that not all veterans agree and supprt kerry's actions after the war.
That he earned medals during his four months in vietnam does not mean he is free from any and all criticism.
Yes Beowulf I think its clear he protested against the war and many Vietnam vets, like many people in general, think he deserves to get hung for that. I on the other hand maintain that it is not unpatriotic to be against a war.
By the way, you wont find any of the men who actually served with Kerry as members of that website link you gave which is a pretty weak website by the way.
Next, I went to the website and its so full of crap its not even funny. Want to know what the "obscure regulation Kerry used to get out of service on the riverboats" was Beowulf (by the way my cats name in Beowulf)??? Its the regulation that states any man wounded 3 times or more is eligible to change units. No doubt Kerry needed a change of post after being wounded badly three times!!! Jeez.
But does that website mention that? No, it calls it an "obscure regulation" to make it sound as if he tried to sneak out of service somehow and was looking for any way out he could. PLEASE!!! SPARE ME THE MOUNTAIN OF ****!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh yeah and I also went to its link "POW's against John Kerry" and you want to know how many people are listed as members John Kerry supposedly betrayed?? Less than 40!!!!! Of hundreds of thousands of veterans less than 40!!! HAHAHAHAHAH Want to know how many Vietnam veteran support Kerry from my neighborhood alone Beowulf?? Do you? Well I can tell you as they recently gathered for a meeting I attended and there are over 130 people just at my neighborhood meeting of veterans and thier families that support John Kerry for president. Funny how it seems more of these Vietnam vets he supposedly betrayed by going against the war seem to be supporting him these days. Like I said, they realize what you sont Beowulf: The war was wring and John Kerry did not betray them!!! You are wrong Beowulf and your web links prove it. I dont give a rats ass if 45 veterans say Kerry betrayed them. I can find 100 veteran who will swear to you they have been to the moon and back!
I wonder how many members that website of yours has. Convenient that when I tried to find out I got a "guestbook error" warning. Odd.
That website you use as "evidence" really shows that you dont actually know how to differentiate fact from fiction Beowulf. Hundreds of thousands of US men and woman served in the 'Nam and they probably have alot of opinions about alot of things. A websites existance doenst say much to me Beowulf and if I were you I would be more carefull about posting your "backup" before you discredit yourself even more...........
Its no surprise that a website like that exists. I just ran a google search and found a site by Gulf War Veterans about what thier favorite dirty magazine they snuck into Muslum Saudi Arabia was............
Trigger
02-27-2004, 02:26 PM
you see thats really the funny thing TRIGGER because I see YOU calling him a coward and a traitor and an a-hole but then I see HIS MEN who served with him calling him a hero and a brother. You see thats just my problem with you TRIGGER. You have the balls to call a guy an "a-hole" for turning against the war and his men and the real truth of the matter is that his men dont see it that way. Its not as if a sudden revelation was released yesterday that Kerry was against the war. He made it clear he didnt support it even while he was there. In fact, it is during those bloody and heroic months he spent on the delta rivers that he decided it just wasnt worth his blood and the blood of his brothers in arms.....
You see, those very people you ask about, those very ones you wonder "how they would react". Well I can tell you very easily. They still call him a hero and a brother because they, lke me, recognize that being against a war does not mean you are a traitor. In fact, Kerry was a patriot. I guess you just cant get that through your thick skull. Im just glad Kerry's brothers in arms, the war veterans of Vietnam who served with him, understand my point though..........which is exactly why all the surviving members of his boat crew accept for one who is missing are now serving with him as part of his Democratic campaign and guess what; THEY ARE REPUBLICANS!!!!! Jeez TRIGGER, get it through your skull and grow up a little and stop being a partisan a-holoe yourself and stop disgracinh honorable war veterans. You really do make me sick to my stomach............
What is your reading level? If it's college level, you got robbed.
I didn't call him a TRAITOR or a COWARD. I called him an A-HOLE but you attribute these labels to something I've posted.
I'll say it again: You side with the Jane Fondas of the world and you're an A-HOLE IN MY BOOK. I don't care if YOU like it obd. I don't care if his boat crew likes it. I don't care if they are members of GREENPEACE, the DEMOCRAT PARTY or the REPUBLICAN PARTY.
Now, go get started on those Rabies shots. I hear they're quite painful.
P.S. take your little mittens off before you type, because you're well into ducimus19's territory when it comes to the readability of your posts. :slap:
yes TRIGGER and as for you: I would be surprised if you ever graduated from elementary school. The reason I sometimes screw up my words is because I type on a laptop keyboard which is very small. IF you ever actualy bothered to examine my "spelling errors" you would note that most of the misplaced letters are one space away from the correct letter choice. I just dont bother proofing this as its just a forum post. I hope you understand...
By the way, you sound like quite the idiot yourself...............
you see thats really the funny thing TRIGGER because I see YOU calling him a coward and a traitor and an a-hole but then I see HIS MEN who served with him calling him a hero and a brother. You see thats just my problem with you TRIGGER. You have the balls to call a guy an "a-hole" for turning against the war and his men and the real truth of the matter is that his men dont see it that way. Its not as if a sudden revelation was released yesterday that Kerry was against the war. He made it clear he didnt support it even while he was there. In fact, it is during those bloody and heroic months he spent on the delta rivers that he decided it just wasnt worth his blood and the blood of his brothers in arms.....
You see, those very people you ask about, those very ones you wonder "how they would react". Well I can tell you very easily. They still call him a hero and a brother because they, lke me, recognize that being against a war does not mean you are a traitor. In fact, Kerry was a patriot. I guess you just cant get that through your thick skull. Im just glad Kerry's brothers in arms, the war veterans of Vietnam who served with him, understand my point though..........which is exactly why all the surviving members of his boat crew accept for one who is missing are now serving with him as part of his Democratic campaign and guess what; THEY ARE REPUBLICANS!!!!! Jeez TRIGGER, get it through your skull and grow up a little and stop being a partisan a-holoe yourself and stop disgracinh honorable war veterans. You really do make me sick to my stomach............
Well damn, someone said that it was easy to be in SF. I should stop training and play with myself more often.
You've got a lot of balls to start downplaying SF. I'm not saying it's hard or easy, but if you're not there doing it and haven't gone through the pipeline and passed, then don't talk like you can.
Kerry's not a perfect man, and neither is Bush. I look at Kerry as a War Hero and I respect any vets more than most of anyone else. But doesn't mean that he'd be a good president.
Reason why I brought up Haney was because you mentioned him and you said that Haney didn't mention Kerry at all, and that's because they were involved in different times. He wasn't knee deep, the people who were higher in the situation than he was, the people making the calls and actually having the power to be against or for what was happening was "knee deep". He also did a lot of assumptions, i'm not saying that he's wrong, I actually believe him.
There are other Heros out there who had it worste than Kerry.
http://www.daveroever.net/
Beowulf
02-27-2004, 02:53 PM
Well damn, someone said that it was easy to be in SF. I should stop training and play with myself more often.
You've got a lot of balls to start downplaying SF. I'm not saying it's hard or easy, but if you're not there doing it and haven't gone through the pipeline and passed, then don't talk like you can.
Kerry's not a perfect man, and neither is Bush. I look at Kerry as a War Hero and I respect any vets more than most of anyone else. But doesn't mean that he'd be a good president.
Reason why I brought up Haney was because you mentioned him and you said that Haney didn't mention Kerry at all, and that's because they were involved in different times. He wasn't knee deep, the people who were higher in the situation than he was, the people making the calls and actually having the power to be against or for what was happening was "knee deep". He also did a lot of assumptions, i'm not saying that he's wrong, I actually believe him.
There are other Heros out there who had it worste than Kerry.
http://www.daveroever.net/
Good post.
Obd the only reason I posted those couple of web sites was to show that there are some veterans who think Kerry's actions when he returned home were inappropriate to say the least.
Trigger
02-27-2004, 02:54 PM
yes TRIGGER and as for you: I would be surprised if you ever graduated from elementary school. The reason I sometimes screw up my words is because I type on a laptop keyboard which is very small -EXCUSES ARE LIKE ASSHOLES-. IF you ever actualy bothered to examine my "spelling errors" you would note that most of the misplaced letters are one space away from the correct letter choice. -EVERYBODY HAS ONE- I just dont bother proofing this as its just a forum post. -SOME STINK MORE THAN OTHERS- I hope you understand...-I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND-
By the way, you sound like quite the idiot yourself...............-OOOOH, BURN! IS THAT THE BEST YOU CAN DO OR WILL YOU BLAME THAT ON YOUR LAPTOP TOO?-
-I ONLY QUOTE THE FOLLOWING TO FURTHER DEMONSTRATE YOUR INEPTNESS, SEE YOU POSTED THIS BEFORE BUT FORGOT TO DELETE IT IN YOUR RUSH TO FURTHER EMBARRASS YOURSELF-
you see thats really the funny thing TRIGGER ... Jeez TRIGGER, get it through your skull and grow up a little and stop being a partisan a-holoe yourself and stop disgracinh honorable war veterans. You really do make me sick to my stomach............
-YOU'RE PATHETIC-
Oh and TRIGGER, you might not know this but when you call a man an "a-hole" and then accuse him of joining anti-war groups and going against his men then you pretty much are calling him a traitor. I purposely combined the specific thing you called him (a-hole) with what others had said for efficiency and effect.
You do think he is a traitor do you not?? After all, what you say about him leads one to think that you do.........
And if your wondering how valuable my college education was I can tell you: Accepted to Grad school at Duke.
Not to mention I have won several awards for papers I have published on such various topics as "The Evolution of Airpower during the Interwar Period" (German,British and American Air power theorists and doctrinal evolution)(b/t ww1 and ww2), "A Study of Alexander the Great" and "The Role of the Islamic Religion in culture, politics and intellectual life within the Islamicate" and an essay I wrote which was published by my professor about the nature of religious interpretation of Islamic text, specifically the Hadith and Qu'ran and how interpreters assumptions and bias and his/her selection of specific textual passages affect the way such texts are understood.
I have all of them still as I am very proud of the papers I have been recognized for.
If you wish to read any of my papers let me know. I would be glad to give them to you. In fact, I would put them up on this forum accept for the fact that I dont want them stolen and used by others....As far as I know no copies of my papers have yet turned up on the internet accept the one that was published by my Professor. (He also now uses it as an example of a model essay even two years after I left his class!!!)
wow TRIGGER Im glad you noticed I repeat posted. I did that to increase the chance others would read what I had to say......its a classic strategy to get your ideas past all the other crap, such as what you post.
still you continue to make petty and weak assed attacks on me instead of my argument. I guess you lack that ability so you revert to attacking the messenger and not the message. This is common among intellectual lightweights such as yourself although I will be the first to admit I do come down to such levels when I get angry, such as now........
Trigger
02-27-2004, 03:12 PM
Wow, three posts in response to my one? Haven't found the 'edit' button yet? or were your three too 'lightweight' by themselves?
I hear ducimus19 likes to brag about his school papers as well, why don't you PM him and you two can fluff each other. I mean fluff each other's egos.
As far as calling someone a 'traitor' (something I still haven't done) or an 'A-hole', that's my right and if you don't like it, that's your problem.
either way this post has degenerated into a hopeless insult-fest and has moved from being about issues to being about getting in jabs at eachother. Is propose we just stop here before we waste any more of eachothers time. I admit I had a part to play and I got angry about people calling John Kerry such things as a "asshole", "traitor" etc.....
I still think its wrong by I am willing at this point to just give up and call it quits. Its taken too much effort and Im just sick of responding.......
Guess some things will never change (on both sides)
Trigger
02-27-2004, 03:18 PM
Like I said:
See you at the voting booth. ;)
WARPIG
02-27-2004, 03:22 PM
I was wondering if either of you two morons needed a hug. I swear I feel like bonking both of your heads together and making you shake hands. Watching you two moneys fight over which piece of **** to throw at each other is starting to stink. (It started off a little amusing but mostly it smells of monkey poo.) The fact is Kerry's hippy lovin' days and weak stance on POW's lend some pretty good discredit on him. George W's priveliged military service and unpopular global standing aren't really doing his campaign much good either.
OBD's moronic attacks at anyone who has an opposing opinion pretty much garauntees that anything credible he might submit is unheard and transparent. Thanks for you educational resume by the way... your ego precedes you. I got an A in home-ech.. neener neener neener.
This concludes my second rant of the day. :cantbeli:
Trigger
02-27-2004, 03:27 PM
Sorry WARPIG.
I would shake hands but I only have hooks. p-)
Tane Angle
02-27-2004, 03:32 PM
Whoa. I think most people on here know that I remain today very passionate and upset in regards to our leaving our people behind in SE Asia. However, from what I understand-which is humbly little-there was no one left to rescue by the 90s.
I'm not a huge fan of most politicians, but I'll stop short of calling Kerry a traitor or a coward. He didn't support the Vietcong, just as people who will be voting for Kerry aren't therefore supporting terrorists in Iraq. Supporting is, in my humble opinion, too strong a word. Kerry was supporting our troops.
By the way, I would highly recommend questioning the actions of all Presidential candidates, Democrat or Republican or whoever. And I would recommend questioning their motives as well. Might want to do likewise with Senators, Representatives, Justices, and many others. But hey, I'm a bit of a cynical, disenchanted skeptic sometimes.
Also, I would like to say that Beowulf holds a tremendous amount of respect from me, and that I would be very surprised if he was not who he said he was. He and I disagree on some issues occasionally, but he commands my respect. I know that he can fight his fights just fine without any help from me, and he already has the able assistance of Cael and the reknowned Trigger, among others, so I will let the man get back to his thing.
Don't hurt eachother too bad. That goes for you too, Trigger. p-) Have a good one all, and as always, just some thoughts...
Beowulf
02-27-2004, 03:38 PM
Where's Cali joe with a joke or drawing of a nekkid woman when we need him??
edit: thanks Tane, have a good one. ;)
WARPIG
02-27-2004, 04:01 PM
I'll stand in for Joe...
A teacher is giving a grammar lesson and askes her 4th graders to use the word fascinate in a sentence.
Susie bounces up and down with her hand in the air."Oooh, I know!"
"Ok, Susie.. go ahead."
"I went to a museum this weekend... it was fascinating."
"Well Susie that was close but the word I needed to hear was fascinate..not fascinating."
Little Johnny raises his hand.. but the teacher knows little Johny..."Billy, can you use the word fascinate in a sentence?" " Uhm.. I am fascinated with animals."
"Sigh.. that was close too.. but I still need the word fascinate in a sentence."
Little Johnny clears his throat.
" OK Johnny... sigh.. let's hear it."
"My big sister's blouse has 10 buttons on it... but her **** are so big.. she can only fasten eight!"
Now that the air has cleared and everyone has kissed and made up, I thought I'd log in with my thoughts As one of the few Vietnam Veterans on the forum, my recollection is that even the military was split asunder by war just like the country. Kerry's group of veterans was just more demonstrative than others. If you are going to call him a traitor, then you would have to call the vast majority of Americans who had turned against the war by 1970 traitors, too. Those were the times and if you weren't around then, I would suggest perhaps studying the history of the war and why the anti-war movement grew to the point where Johnson decided not to run for re-election and Nixon had to withdraw troops.
So far as Bush's National Guard service, as I've noted before, most Vietnam veterans-- the ones I know at least-- aren't mad at those who managed to get out of going to that lovely southeast Asian country including the draft dodgers and students. I'm willing to bet, though, most of them will go to their grave wondering if they did the right thing.
As we all know, politics is a dirty business so I'm sure this is just the beginning of much more of the same. Have a good one (with a tip of the hat to Tane :P )
Sixgun Symphony
02-27-2004, 11:45 PM
How lame. Kerry is a decorated war hero. Enough said.
So was Benedict Arnold.
Yes six-gun, we got you after the ninth time you posted that wonderful fact of yours you love so much. Why not change your name to Benedict Arnold and then you can bring it up with every post you make and you wont even have to type his name!!!!!!!! hehehehe
Jack Mehoff
02-28-2004, 02:17 AM
Eric L. Haney, one of the founding members of Delta Force talks about this cover-up in his book "Inside Delta Force". He was "knee deep" in that whole thing and he doesnt implicate Kerry. I suggest you read it.............
Kerry was a war hero, no doubt. He risked his life to save others. Nobody here has the right to question that. Its a travesty to call him a coward. You people are the real cowards. Your just partisan assholes looking for any peice of tabloid trash to put down a real war hero and bring up a F'ing reject wannabe soldier like George Bush whom nobody seems to remmmeber actually doing a damn thing in the national guard.......
You guys make me sick and you should be ashamed of yourselves to latch on to some tabloid trash in a partisan way to try to bring down a true American soldier and a hero who volunteered for the riverboat unit that was taking 75% casualty rate at time he entered it. He was wounded three times in battle and even his fellow boat mates who are now all Republican call him a "true hero in every sense of word and a brother".
You mother F U C K E R S on the other had are complete loosers and deserve to rot. No war hero should be talked about like you have said things. Do you have no respect at all or what?? What kind of sick bastards are you?? You dont know if Kerry had a damn thing to do with the cover up or not. You just play along with election year crap..Again, you are a disgrace. The real A-hole is pretty boy Bush who never served in active duty, never served in a warzone, and only showed up for 3 days of service out of his period and thats according to his own press secretary!!!!! Records show he only was there a few days!!! hahahaha now thats a real coward and a real joke..........I did more time at ROTC than Bush did in the national guard.
Simple fact: John Kerry is a decorated war hero. He is a citizen soldier. He has three purple hearts and a silver star. ANYBODY here who dares to call him an "a-hole" from speculative journalism is a disgrace to the uniform and should be taken out and shot in the streets as such......
Is this the same moron who made this thread?
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=148259&highlight=#148259
yes Jack Mehof, that would be me and I still disagree with the fact that those captured soldeirs, like Jessica Lynch, were given medals normally reserved for actions "Above and beyond the call of duty to aid thier fellow soldiers". For example, medals of equal stature to the medals given out to Jessica Lynch for being captured were given out to Korean war vets post-KIA after they voluntarily stayed behind to fight a Korean/Chinese human wave attack so that thier buddies could escape. Somehow it just doesnt compare in my mind.
By the way I just want to say I do agree with some medals given out to soldiers that acted with great bravery that day. One in particular comes to mind who came on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno. Jessica Lynch however, isnt one of them in my mind. Its horible what happened to her but she doesnt deserve a medal noramlly reserved for sacrifices of life for fellow men.........just my humble opinions though and I am in no way judging her, just those who tried to use her story to drum up the war effort and lied and such. She was basically used in my humble opinion as came out later in war and in her own book.......... Remmember she didnt recieve all medals the Pentagon planned to give her. Hell they wanted her to get the Medal of Honor. Jeez!!!! Now thats political crap.........
Maybe, just maybe......please please please......Beowulf and TRIGGER will agree with me on this one. After all Jack Mehoff, we were all just starting to make progress and cool down until you come along and bust it all up again. Good going...hehehe. wink wink.......
mustamato
02-28-2004, 02:40 AM
You mother F U C K E R S on the other had are complete loosers and deserve to rot. No war hero should be talked about like you have said things. Do you have no respect at all or what?? What kind of sick bastards are you?? You dont know if Kerry had a damn thing to do with the cover up or not. You just play along with election year crap..Again, you are a disgrace. The real A-hole is pretty boy Bush who never served in active duty, never served in a warzone, and only showed up for 3 days of service out of his period and thats according to his own press secretary!!!!! Records show he only was there a few days!!! hahahaha now thats a real coward and a real joke..........I did more time at ROTC than Bush did in the national guard.
Is this the same moron who made this thread?
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=148259&highlight=#148259
Obviously be he is still right.
Mustamoto, your an anti-American bastard so I honestly dont care that you are just taking this opportunity to "rub it in". You have managed to offend me,Permski-omon who hates you, Russian Texan who hates you, and many others who hate you. Your posts are absolutely the worst on this forum. You always say everything bad you can about America and about Russia and act as if Finland of all places has the hottest military this side of China. I couldnt care less about what you have ot say about me........yet I respect what TRIGGER and ARGYL and BEOWULF have to say because they at least back up what they say and I can respect that....You on the other hand are worthless.....
Funny thing is Jack Mehoff, I forgot I ever posted that so I clicked on that link you put up and guess what, alot of peeps in here agreed with me that Lynch didnt deserve what Pentagon tried to give her afer bloating up her "heroism under fire" saying she "killed many and shot until she ran out of ammo". I very well remmember such stories and I was proud of her, until I found out it was all a lie, even when they said she was rescued under "intense enemy fire" when not a shot was heard......damn PR campaign..........
Jack Mehoff
02-28-2004, 02:47 AM
yes Jack Mehof, that would be me and I still disagree with the fact that those captured soldeirs, like Jessica Lynch, were given medals normally reserved for actions "Above and beyond the call of duty to aid thier fellow soldiers". For example, medals of equal stature to the medals given out to Jessica Lynch for being captured were given out to Korean war vets post-KIA after they voluntarily stayed behind to fight a Korean/Chinese human wave attack so that thier buddies could escape. Somehow it just doesnt compare in my mind.
By the way I just want to say I do agree with some medals given out to soldiers that acted with great bravery that day. One in particular comes to mind who came on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno. Jessica Lynch however, isnt one of them in my mind. Its horible what happened to her but she doesnt deserve a medal noramlly reserved for sacrifices of life for fellow men.........just my humble opinions though and I am in no way judging her, just those who tried to use her story to drum up the war effort and lied and such. She was basically used in my humble opinion as came out later in war and in her own book.......... Remmember she didnt recieve all medals the Pentagon planned to give her. Hell they wanted her to get the Medal of Honor. Jeez!!!! Now thats political crap.........
Maybe, just maybe......please please please......Beowulf and TRIGGER will agree with me on this one. After all Jack Mehoff, we were all just starting to make progress and cool down until you come along and bust it all up again. Good going...hehehe. wink wink.......
1. Go ****ing do a google search and type in Bronze Star and Bronze Star with V(Valor). Can you distinguish between valor award and a merit award?
2. It's not OK for people to trash on Kerry affiliation with Jane Fonda/commie after the war, but it's OK for you to trash an American POW aka PFC Lynch :roll: I guess some people can't practice what they preach
Jack Mehoff
02-28-2004, 02:54 AM
I don't question Kerry's accomplishment in the military, but I do question his involvement with the Jane Fonda and anti war hippies, and just because he's a war hero doesn't make him right
Dude relax man. I never "trashed on her" first of all. As I said, she went through hell and was brave. As I also said, the Pentagon didnt just initially want her up for a bronze star. They wanted her up for alot more on "credible sources" that she fought off the enemy single handedly, saved several of her cowering fellow soldiers with her own body, and refused ot surrender until she ran out of ammo". This was all exposed as PR crap.
Sorry Jack, but I got all respect in world for Jessica. She was an American soldier and if you read my posts carefully I said that I got nothin againt her, just the PR people who wanted to take the bloated story of what happened to her and use if for PR for the war and try ot give her every medal in book. Where exactly did I EVER make a comment about a Bronze Star of lack of Bronze star for her Jack??? Where? Try to relax Jack. Why dont you go kick around that kicking bag that used to be on your avatar or take some more really scary looking pictures of you looking all rambo with your sharp knife and all.........
I just finished getting past a flame war with others on this post. Last thing on earth I need is your ass tag teaming a dead horse post....Go get some sleep man.
mustamato
02-28-2004, 02:57 AM
Your posts are absolutely the worst on this forum. You always say everything bad you can about America... etc etc
Didnīt I just say that Kerry is a badass and real war hero, that should be
respected for that and would make a hell of a president? Just because you
have a problem with some people you donīt have to make things up.
Im not making anything up Mustamoto. Anyone who doestn believe what
I say about you can just ask one of the most respected members hers,
"Perski-OMON" what he thinks about you and find they will get the same opinion I gave.
Nice to see you defending John Kerry though Musta. I take away one "hatred point" I have for you and eat it.
wow that whole "hatred point" thing I made up surprised even me. That was lame. Forgive me as I was winging it big time and just got off 10 solid hours of work after a bad nights sleep. Im not my usual self.....note to self: dont visit militaryphotos.net to check out posts and pics and **** after work. Just go straight to bed and wake up with your mind at least half functional!!!!!
TALOS
02-28-2004, 03:18 AM
Damn, now Im canadian so I really dont have any say in what the hell you guys do in the states or who you elect, all politicians are equally obnoxious in my mind (Canadian ones are obviously included by that)
But I do have a question. OBD you keep saying that Bush only showed up for three days the whole time he was in the NG, yet the news reports Ive seen show him as a military pilot and apparently a good one at that. How would that be possible in only three days?
Edit: I originally had 3 hours instead of days ... my bad
um he is the son of the President of the United States...........
Beowulf
03-01-2004, 11:46 AM
um he is the son of the President of the United States...........
brilliant
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