US soldiers shoot at Canadian ambassador's car in Baghdad

[BoyElroy]

Agence France Presse -- English

February 1, 2006 Wednesday 4:43 AM GMT

HEADLINE: US soldiers shoot at Canadian ambassador's car in Baghdad

DATELINE: WASHINGTON, Jan 31 2006

The US military shot at the Canadian ambassador's car in Baghdad Tuesday but no-one was hurt in the "unfortunate incident," a US State department official said.

"There was an incident involving the (US) military and the Canadian ambassador's car today," a State Department official told AFP, speaking on condition of anonymity.

"They shot on it."

"No-one was injured," the official said, calling it an "unfortunate incident" and adding: "We are in close contact with Canadian officials."

The official could provide no further details of the incident.

Four passengers were riding in the vehicle, including Stewart Henderson, Canada's charge d'affaires in Iraq, when US soldiers fired on it "after it reportedly wouldn't stop," Canada's CTV News reported.

The vehicle was apparently travelling alone in the heavily fortified Green Zone when it came across an American military convoy and tried to pass it, the report said.

Members of the US Army's 4th Infantry Divisions gave the driver hand signals to stop. When the car did not, they shot over it, then at it.

"Finally they plugged the car with three rounds. Two went through the hood into the engine block. One shot went through the lower part of the windshield," CTV said.

Canada's ambassador to Iraq, John Holmes, was not in the car, and neither the four passengers nor the driver were injured, the report said.

[Atlantic Friend]

D'oh !

Either the car's driver or the US trooper will get chewed for that near-miss....

[Argyll]

This happened INSIDE THE ZONE,there's no excuse whatsoever for brassing up anyone inside the IZ........period.

If a PSD team did this they'd all be out of jobs,and blacklisted from Iraq.

[wiking]

This happened INSIDE THE ZONE,there's no excuse whatsoever for brassing up anyone inside the IZ........period.

If a PSD team did this they'd all be out of jobs,and blacklisted from Iraq.

Could you explain that to someone who's at a loss for what being inside the zone means?

[Alex-L]

your inside the green its safer then outside the green. No reason to fire on the car inside the greenzone.

[PaulClift]

Could you explain that to someone who's at a loss for what being inside the zone means?

The green zone, its where the government buildings and British and American embassys are, its a walled off and heavily guarded part of Bagdhad.

[Atlantic Friend]

Could you explain that to someone who's at a loss for what being inside the zone means?

I suppose the zone is a bubble of normalcy, inside which there isn't supposed to be any problems, in opposition to its outer skirts where you do have strict checkpoints and armed response ready. A car speeding inside the zone can get a ticket, a car speeding at the checkpoint can get fired upon.

So I think Argyll says that inside the zone, the Canadian car shouldn't have drawn fire from the troops.

[wiking]

Accidental Discharge perhaps? Or just a jumpy kid fresh from basic?

[East Scout]

Oh well........Called the fog of war.

[btdown]

Listen it's not a hard concept. Stop the ****ing car!

[Alex-L]

While I agree its simple stop. Soldier shouldnt have fired. And three rounds arnt a accident.

Regardless, he might have been used to outside the wire, not inside.

[Hellfish]

The car was told to back off...

[Rubes]

Whether he was in the zone or not is irrelevant. He was signalled to stop, and didn't. Lucky it turned out alright...

[California Joe]

Maybe they just hate Canadians.

[muede]

Typical, but luckily nobody was hurt this time. All this shooting at car things need to end, too many innocents get killed. If they kill/injure 100 persons and 1 of them was driving S-VBIED, IMHO thats not the worth of the lives and injuries of troopers saved there needs to be better ways to do this. Their supposed to be there serve and protect the common Iraqis, not to kill them.. but then again, what else is new.

[Bia]

The car was told to back off...
Exactly!

Likely the diplomats figured they are above the basic rules.
Got a WAKE UP call...

[LA_Operator]

This happened INSIDE THE ZONE,there's no excuse whatsoever for brassing up anyone inside the IZ........period.

If a PSD team did this they'd all be out of jobs,and blacklisted from Iraq.


Before I post my comment, please understand that this is not a smarta$$ comment, because I know you are employed over there BUT:

Saying that because the vehicle drove somewhat aggressive towards the convoy INSIDE THE ZONE, they should not have been lit up? Have'nt there been multiple bombings by insurgents in the Green Zone? I know if a vehicle were pulling up to me and did not obey my clear hand signals, I am going to take the risk of protecting myself so that I can see my wife and kids.

As I said, this is in no way meant to be disrespectful of your position or firsthand knowledge of the AO.

[Argyll]

Unless you've been in the Green Zone,you don't understand this concept,it's a secure zone,which means there are no VBIED's to be scared off....there is no justification of shooting up cars in the IZ whatsoever,I think you all need to wake up to the fact that the US MILITARY are no longer the authority,that is now firmly in the hands of the democraticly elected Iraqi government,and as so many point out,the US are now guests.

Too many times this has happened......there is no war going on inside the IZ,the dangers are a hell of a lot less,If a PSD team did the same to a US Diplomatic convoy I can guarantee you they would be expelled from the country,have all of their CAC cards revoked and blacklisted from ever returning to Iraq in the future......why?.......because it's not neccesary to flex muscles in a secure compound.....

[Banner_of_America]

But bombs have gone off in the Green Zone before, your assertion that none is wrong.

It appears strange to me that Canadian soldiers on their website blame the driver of the ambassador's car, while you appear eager to unload on Americans again. It's not like Americans blazed away at the vehicle - there was first the expectation that all drivers, especially from allied countries knew better than to approach a convoy, then there was a sign, then there were arm gestures, then there were warning shots, then there were shots into the engine block, not to kill. That woke the driver up, the dozy ****er.

Through all this, what the **** was the driver doing? Convoy duty is very hazardous and Americans are almost doing it exclusively for all Coalition forces. Hesitation means death. I wouldn't begrudge them solid, well practised rules.

Why not accept the fact that some flunky driver who thought he could break the rules because of whose car he's driving, instead of unloading on americans again and bringing up unrelated stuff like how Americans are guests?

[East Scout]

Funny my father sent me some pictures the other day of his office in the GZ that had not one, but two RPGs come throught the wall..Neither went off..Guess the GZ isnt so secure after all....

[WARPIG]

Typical, but luckily nobody was hurt this time. All this shooting at car things need to end, too many innocents get killed. If they kill/injure 100 persons and 1 of them was driving S-VBIED, IMHO thats not the worth of the lives and injuries of troopers saved there needs to be better ways to do this. Their supposed to be there serve and protect the common Iraqis, not to kill them.. but then again, what else is new.

What else is new? Definately not the typical comments.

If Argyll can verify this, it isn't a question of some grunt being over aggressive and wanting to kill Iraqi's, nor is it being trigger happy. No matter what the manner the vehicles driver was driving the car, it all boils down to confusing the ROE for the area. The shooter wasn't operating weapons free in the Green Zone, he was ordered to track and engage that vehicle. Blame can't be awarded only to the shooter, nor the leadership, nor the Canadian driver. A great big brain fart was had by all parties. The result here is that the Canadian group will definately review and change their driving habits no matter the area. (keeping your distance from a convoy is smart no matter where you are) The 4th ID unit that did the shooting will spend some time on the carpet as well as some additional training on their ROE. PSD teams both contract and MPs, as well as units operating in the Green Zone are supposed to operate under the same ROE. Argyll??

[EvanL]

Exactly!

Likely the diplomats figured they are above the basic rules.
Got a WAKE UP call...
In case your not aware, diplomats dont drive themselves. It would be either a local or a hired driver from a foreign firm.

[Bia]

In case your not aware, diplomats dont drive themselves. It would be either a local or a hired driver from a foreign firm.
Well DUH

But the driver does as told by his employers.

[East Scout]

Great now we can argue over driving habits in Irak......GTFU

[Argyll]

What else is new? Definately not the typical comments.

If Argyll can verify this, it isn't a question of some grunt being over aggressive and wanting to kill Iraqi's, nor is it being trigger happy. No matter what the manner the vehicles driver was driving the car, it all boils down to confusing the ROE for the area. The shooter wasn't operating weapons free in the Green Zone, he was ordered to track and engage that vehicle. Blame can't be awarded only to the shooter, nor the leadership, nor the Canadian driver. A great big brain fart was had by all parties. The result here is that the Canadian group will definately review and change their driving habits no matter the area. (keeping your distance from a convoy is smart no matter where you are) The 4th ID unit that did the shooting will spend some time on the carpet as well as some additional training on their ROE. PSD teams both contract and MPs, as well as units operating in the Green Zone are supposed to operate under the same ROE. Argyll??

Correct mate........common sense is needed in abundance.

Banner of America.........can you please post your Operational experience in Iraq,or any other warzone please..........I'll unload on Brits if they did the same,I'll unload on anyone who appears to have done something wrong,the diplomats in the IZ are fully aware of the procedures,as are the Soldiers.

Yes there has been bombs in the IZ,I was there when one went off at the Green Zone cafe,but security was tightened,and there has been no PBIED or VBIED or SVBIED gone off in the IZ.....The IZ comes under IDF almost daily,that's not the issue here.......unless you have first hand knowledge about the ROE's and the daily activity I'd suggest you keep your assinine comments about me out of threads

Oh perhaps you can tell us all where exactly this happened,my best guess would either be at the 14th July Roundabout,or near the old CPA.

And all MNF countries do convoy escort duties it's not an exclusive to the US,most convoy duties are done by Security companies rather than the Military anyway.......but you knew this already right?

[EvanL]

Well DUH

But the driver does as told by his employers.
No he doesn't.
Diplomats arent snobs that sit in the back of the car yelling out orders because they have a position of authority. They rely on their drivers to make swift decisions. The driver probably has more knowledge of the streets of Baghdad than anyone else in the vehicle.

[East Scout]

But bombs have gone off in the Green Zone before, your assertion that none is wrong.

It appears strange to me that Canadian soldiers on their website blame the driver of the ambassador's car, while you appear eager to unload on Americans again. It's not like Americans blazed away at the vehicle - there was first the expectation that all drivers, especially from allied countries knew better than to approach a convoy, then there was a sign, then there were arm gestures, then there were warning shots, then there were shots into the engine block, not to kill. That woke the driver up, the dozy ****er.

Through all this, what the **** was the driver doing? Convoy duty is very hazardous and Americans are almost doing it exclusively for all Coalition forces. Hesitation means death. I wouldn't begrudge them solid, well practised rules.

Why not accept the fact that some flunky driver who thought he could break the rules because of whose car he's driving, instead of unloading on americans again and bringing up unrelated stuff like how Americans are guests?

I agree...**** happens

[Banner_of_America]

you see, that's your ****ing problem. You are a mod, yet you are intolerant of other people's opinions yet still want to weigh in with your "facts" all the time. You spend so much time here it is laughable, and because you do, you are often the first or second to reply to a thread and then cripple any discussion. Anything must be my way because "I was there." There and everywhere there, it seems, from your wideranging lectures, yes lectures that brook no dissent, on top level politics to weaponry to the Baathists. Were you in the insurgency too?

Guess what Mister, you're not the only person who has served in Iraq. And even if you were a grunt or a contractor, that doesn't mean you are the all-knowing fount of knowledge and you have seen everythign and you always have the big picture, for you to crush any dissenting views. I have never been in combat but I was trained as a member of an elite infantry unit before I left.

If you always act so frustrated at people merely voicing opinions or asking questions, it's better if you don't answer to threads. Go out and get a wank or something.

I am going to complain about you. Your experience is useful but you act like some kind of superstar strutting aruond here. What kind of ****ed up immoderating is this?

[Bia]

No he doesn't.
Diplomats arent snobs that sit in the back of the car yelling out orders because they have a position of authority. They rely on their drivers to make swift decisions. The driver probably has more knowledge of the streets of Baghdad than anyone else in the vehicle.

I have no clue of the situation so will back off my previous comment.

Would it be safe to assume...
There was more than diplomats & local driver?
Like an experienced officer riding in the vehicle with them....and likely he was in charge of calling the moves?

My main point is...green zone or not....
If armed forces signal you to back off.....you back off...period.
To attempt to go around them....seems wreckless.

eh?

[LaoSexMachine]

you see, that's your ****ing problem. You are a mod, yet you are intolerant of other people's opinions yet still want to weigh in with your "facts" all the time. You spend so much time here it is laughable, and because you do, you are often the first or second to reply to a thread and then cripple any discussion. Anything must be my way because "I was there." There and everywhere there, it seems, from your wideranging lectures, yes lectures that brook no dissent, on top level politics to weaponry to the Baathists. Were you in the insurgency too?

Guess what Mister, you're not the only person who has served in Iraq. And even if you were a grunt or a contractor, that doesn't mean you are the all-knowing fount of knowledge and you have seen everythign and you always have the big picture, for you to crush any dissenting views. I have never been in combat but I was trained as a member of an elite infantry unit before I left.

If you always act so frustrated at people merely voicing opinions or asking questions, it's better if you don't answer to threads. Go out and get a wank or something.

I am going to complain about you. Your experience is useful but you act like some kind of superstar strutting aruond here. What kind of ****ed up immoderating is this?

He just ask you a simple question. What elite unit were you in? We don't know your name and it would not hurt to tell us the unit. If not you are a poser like Impulse. As for me I was with 3rd Marines, no elite unit just a ground pounder. 0311

[LaoSexMachine]

Well, the incident is inexcusable because it's in the GREEN ZONE.

[East Scout]

My main point is...green zone or not....
If armed forces signal you to back off.....you back off...period.
To attempt to go around them....seems wreckless.

eh?

You think people would have learned after after the Italians got vented...When the guy is pointing a weapon, best to do as you're ordered regardless of ROE and all that krapp..What are you sappose to do run up and ask them if they have read them first?...

[Argyll]

Shyt happens too many times.......Procedures are supposed to reduce the shyt happens scenarios.

Like I said,if a PSD company done this,they'd be on the afternoon flight to Amman........and they use the same ROE's as the US Mil....Both parties are at fault......because something went wrong,and anyone who thinks a single round stops a car lives in Hollywood......unless it's very close or a large calibre......has it been disclosed as to the nationality of the driver?.....If he was a caucasian Canuck,then I wonder why the Soldier felt threatened by a White Westerner driving a nice shiny diplomatic vehicle inside the IZ?

There are rules for one and rules for others inside the IZ,there's a 40 mph speed limit there,I guess you all know about this?......USAF/US ARMY MP's have been dishing out speeding fines inside the IZ,and they go around with Radar guns,when a PSD team is doing it's job,and are speeding inside the IZ,they get pulled over by the Military and booked!!!......When the Military Speed past the IP,guess what?........that's right they get the "who the fcuk are you trying to stop look"........If you make the rules abide by the same ones!!!!

[Bia]

As for me I was with 3rd Marines, no elite unit just a ground pounder. 0311To some of us....Simply being a Jarhead is Elite status.
Ground Pounders.....YUMMY! ;)

[Hellfish]

To some of us....Simply being a Jarhead is Elite status.
Ground Pounders.....YUMMY! ;)

To some of us being a jarhead is something else entirely. p-)

[muede]

I have never been in combat but I was trained as a member of an elite infantry unit before I left.
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/argyll

And "Argyll" is named that cause thats what he was, for years on end, show some respect. Thats your "elite infantry unit". ;)

[LaoSexMachine]

To some of us....Simply being a Jarhead is Elite status.
Ground Pounders.....YUMMY! ;)

The menu has more tasty treats baby. lol

[Argyll]

you see, that's your ****ing problem. You are a mod, yet you are intolerant of other people's opinions yet still want to weigh in with your "facts" all the time. You spend so much time here it is laughable, and because you do, you are often the first or second to reply to a thread and then cripple any discussion. Anything must be my way because "I was there." There and everywhere there, it seems, from your wideranging lectures, yes lectures that brook no dissent, on top level politics to weaponry to the Baathists. Were you in the insurgency too?

Guess what Mister, you're not the only person who has served in Iraq. And even if you were a grunt or a contractor, that doesn't mean you are the all-knowing fount of knowledge and you have seen everythign and you always have the big picture, for you to crush any dissenting views. I have never been in combat but I was trained as a member of an elite infantry unit before I left.

If you always act so frustrated at people merely voicing opinions or asking questions, it's better if you don't answer to threads. Go out and get a wank or something.

I am going to complain about you. Your experience is useful but you act like some kind of superstar strutting aruond here. What kind of ****ed up immoderating is this?

Refute my points with other facts and not opinions,but you dodge the question........what's your Operational experience,if you're going to use my experience against me ,then I'd suggest you post your creds,otherwise get off your high horse........I've been posting here 3 years bucko,not 3 weeks,and everone of the forum members here know me,and know where I stand.........go ahead and report me........you're acting like a cry baby,I'm posting based on real life experiences,I'm in the loop.I work in Iraq,I go all over Iraq,I see things and hear things,I get told things,and every single forum member who's been here knows I don't bullshyt,and I call things as I see them,and if it doesn't fit into the grand scheme of things well that's too bad,I don't care if I step on toes along the way to dispel myths and rumours...........I have nothing to hide,and I answer the questions directed at me.........you should do the same.

[Bia]

Refute my points with other facts and not opinions,but you dodge the question........what's your Operational experience,if you're going to use my experience against me ,then I'd suggest you post your creds,otherwise get off your high horse.

Give em time....
google is running slow today! ;)


lol

[wiking]

Refute my points with other facts and not opinions,but you dodge the question........what's your Operational experience,if you're going to use my experience against me ,then I'd suggest you post your creds,otherwise get off your high horse........I've been posting here 3 years bucko,not 3 weeks,and everone of the forum members here know me,and know where I stand.........go ahead and report me........you're acting like a cry baby,I'm posting based on real life experiences,I'm in the loop.I work in Iraq,I go all over Iraq,I see things and hear things,I get told things,and every single forum member who's been here knows I don't bullshyt,and I call things as I see them,and if it doesn't fit into the grand scheme of things well that's too bad,I don't care if I step on toes along the way to dispel myths and rumours...........I have nothing to hide,and I answer the questions directed at me.........you should do the same.

Mess with Argyll and you get us all on your backside.

BTW argyll, you got any pics from your Army time to put in that album?

[WARPIG]

you see, that's your ****ing problem. You are a mod, yet you are intolerant of other people's opinions yet still want to weigh in with your "facts" all the time. You spend so much time here it is laughable, and because you do, you are often the first or second to reply to a thread and then cripple any discussion. Anything must be my way because "I was there." There and everywhere there, it seems, from your wideranging lectures, yes lectures that brook no dissent, on top level politics to weaponry to the Baathists. Were you in the insurgency too?

Guess what Mister, you're not the only person who has served in Iraq. And even if you were a grunt or a contractor, that doesn't mean you are the all-knowing fount of knowledge and you have seen everythign and you always have the big picture, for you to crush any dissenting views. I have never been in combat but I was trained as a member of an elite infantry unit before I left.

If you always act so frustrated at people merely voicing opinions or asking questions, it's better if you don't answer to threads. Go out and get a wank or something.

I am going to complain about you. Your experience is useful but you act like some kind of superstar strutting aruond here. What kind of ****ed up immoderating is this?
Your complaint is noted.
Grow a pair would you? Don't get all in a huff because your crediblity was being question.

Credibility is a valued asset here. If you speak from experience it weighs heavier than hearsay. Your comment on this subject doesn't seem off the mark to me, but your attitude is too noisy to be of any use.

Notice that I had some similar opinion about the incident, but since I have no operational experience in the theater, I deferred to a subject matter expert. Common sense or some subjectable experience is good for making opinions in here, but having someone with some operational expertise validate your thinking isn't a bad idea.

Bottom line, don't be so thin skinned. If a mod or anyone returns your volley with some aggression, it could just be some miscommunication. Even if it isn't, some spirited banter isn't going to kill you.

Maybe a nice herbal tea, a bubble bath, some ice cream and a good cry will make you feel better.

Regards,
The management

[Argyll]

Hey BIA,Semper Fi...........

Seems old Black Rain and Banner don't realise I'm one of the good guys.

I just have a lot more information in real time than they have...;)

[Argyll]

The IZ isn't secure from IDF..or Indirect fire,that's why RPG's get shot across the river,it's secure enough to be able to walk around without a sidearm so they claim,I personally wouldn't,but it's as secure as any US base on CONUS,in that the chances of a Car Bomb getting in are very very very limited,could one be built inside?......maybe,but with so many K9's on patrol,it wouldn't be easy,there has never as far as I'm aware been a SVBIED inside the IZ........
Every day there are BOLO lists printed,we have them the military has them,then there's the alert status inside the IZ,it goes up and down,IF there was a credible threat of an SVBIED inside the IZ,all traffic tends to get halted,whilst searches and sweeps are made to locate the device,this actually goes for any kind of IED.....the place gets locked down.
There's no need for the 100m's keep back distance inside the IZ,the place is full of Western Security teams,the shooter will be questioned as to why he felt he needed to fire especially inside the IZ......the reason I'm not happy at this is that last year I witnessed a US Soldier fire a .50 cal at an Iraqi vehicle inside the IZ,and there was no justification for it at all,no hand signals nothing,the car was approaching a junction,but the Gunner deemed the vehicle got too close to his vehicle,the vehicle was not driving at speed,the gunner fired a burst and it tore the guy to pieces.....and from what I seen there was no ROE's used,the Guy on the HUMVEE was jumpy,and he pulled the trigger.

[sickofpretenders]

I would like to add my .02c, but first let me say I have no inside information, just the article and the fact that I am living in the IZ.

Firstly, about the IZ. It is basically a big suburb walled off from the rest of bahgdad. There are several gates in and they are not all the same when it comes to searching vehicles and checking ID's. There has been bombings and attacks within the IZ though not for a while. A suspected VBIED held up traffic last week though and last I heard was blown in place. Locals live within the IZ and bomb making factories have been found here. While I am personally comfortable getting around unarmed, many are not. Currently there is Saddam's trail on and security has been increased as of course the possibilty of attack has increased.

Now there is a rule that everyone knows here and that is if the Army tells you to stop, you stop. Inside and outside the IZ there is one big pissing contest and the military wins everytime. Argyll is right that if a PSD company shot up some ambassadors car there would be trouble, but Blackwater looks after the US Ambassador and that is the only detail that can roll inside the IZ like they are outside. If they did the same thing I doubt the reaction would be much different to what it is now.

SVBIED drivers have tried everything to get closer to a target including US flags in the dash, using suburbans, pretending to hold ID up etc. Until you are positive that a vehicle is friendly its dangerous to assume anything. That attitude does not switch on and off easy for some and a soldier given orders to stop all vehicles has only limited options when someone continues to drive after a warning shot.

Personally I think from the information available, the soldier did what he was told and is blameless. The driver screwed up, no question about it. While I agree there is no call to be shooting up cars in the IZ, the soldier had his orders and everyone knows the escalation of force. If the army tells you to stop, stop. You shouldnt drive around any part of Iraq without looking for checkpoints, even in the IZ.

[Argyll]

Anyone want to bet they were on a jolly and it was some new guys getting shown around the IZ?.......p-).....

What's the chicks like around Liberty pool mate these days?

[Bob Lawbla]

Here is an excerpt from a CBC news article to add to the confusion.



The car was apparently not marked as Canadian.


http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/world/national/2006/02/01/diplomats060201.html

Hopefully a lesson was learned here. I wonder how long the driver has been in the Green Zone?

[Limeyfellow]

This is why the British have to virtually stop and show all the flags and scream out the landrovers "we're British!" and then run like **** when they still get shot at by some humvee. There been hundreds if not thousands of such occassions and many commanders of the different countries have been seriously peed off about it happening.

[Kingswat]

Correct mate........common sense is needed in abundance.

Banner of America.........can you please post your Operational experience in Iraq,or any other warzone please..........I'll unload on Brits if they did the same,I'll unload on anyone who appears to have done something wrong,the diplomats in the IZ are fully aware of the procedures,as are the Soldiers.

Yes there has been bombs in the IZ,I was there when one went off at the Green Zone cafe,but security was tightened,and there has been no PBIED or VBIED or SVBIED gone off in the IZ.....The IZ comes under IDF almost daily,that's not the issue here.......unless you have first hand knowledge about the ROE's and the daily activity I'd suggest you keep your assinine comments about me out of threads

Oh perhaps you can tell us all where exactly this happened,my best guess would either be at the 14th July Roundabout,or near the old CPA.

And all MNF countries do convoy escort duties it's not an exclusive to the US,most convoy duties are done by Security companies rather than the Military anyway.......but you knew this already right?

that's like that useless stat, only %10 of the worlds population have common sense and out of that %10 only %1 know they have it.

[Forester]

As far as I'm concerned the driver of the Canadian vehicle should have stopped when he was signaled to. It was mentioned earlier that RPG's have been launched into buildings in the green zone so what's to stop the terrorists from loading up a truck with explosives and driving it into a building? That doesn't excuse the US soldier for firing in the green zone. But you have to look at it from his view. Your on duty and you see an apparently unmarked vehicle speeding down the road. You signal it to stop and it doesn't. You could just let it go but if it is a terrorist then your in big trouble for not stopping it. You shoot into the engine block the truck is stopped, no one is hurt. All in all it worked out ok, and besides there have certainly been worse things to happen in Iraq.

[Alex-L]

sickofpretenders, might I ask what you do?

[Argyll]

same as me.....PSD...
Forester,the vigilance and security on the main gates stops it ;) that and the dozens of K9's that sniff out bad stuff

[Alex-L]

Ah, bunch of crazy bastards...lol :wink:

[guest]

same as me.....PSD...
Forester,the vigilance and security on the main gates stops it ;) that and the dozens of K9's that sniff out bad stuff


Apparently, Cdn officials claim no warning was given.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/02/01/diplomats060201.html

The plot thickens...

[WARPIG]

OK.. Maybe I didn't make it really clear.

ROE or Rules of Engagement in the Zone do not afford a weapons free status while within the gates. Not every organization or individual in the zone are briefed with the same ROE but they are all very close. I can't say for certain but I thought Argyll confirmed that. If anyone here has some more direct experience with this.. validate or correct my thinking for me. Terminology might vary but I think the intent is the same. I will double check my sources.

NOT WEAPONS FREE.. This means that an order to fire had to happen. For an order to fire to happen, a percieved threat had to exist. Was the shooter (shooter and who ever was giving orders) overzealous? YOUBETCHA. Was the Canadian vehicle driver wearing his ass for a hat? NODOUBTABOUTIT. US soldiers can't count on every swiniging **** in the green zone to follow the rules or have any common sense, so the order to fire was a bit much. Firing into the hood of the car is a bit better than ventilating the front seats. None of us were there so other than being relieved that the Canadians didn't suffer much more than some soiled pants.. we really don't rate at any level to analize this. Some rate much less than others in here.

That being said, enough with the evil trigger happy american strikes again crap. This was an area brainfart. Differing from the individual brainfart, the area brainfart covers stupidity and stupid acitons in PROXIMITY to the related incident. Although some laughing and pointing may be appropriate, blame cannot originate from any indivdual.

If this seems too complicated, please PM a mod about ASSHAT removal. It is a free service and can be implemented on a temporary or permanant basis.

[WARPIG]

same as me.....PSD...
Forester,the vigilance and security on the main gates stops it ;) that and the dozens of K9's that sniff out bad stuff

Sniff out bad stuff..

There you go getting all technical again.

[baboon6]

More importantly, did anyone else notice the Canadian ambassador's name is John Holmes aka Johnny Wadd. Maybe it was Eddie Nash trying to take him out?

[Banner_of_America]

That being said, enough with the evil trigger happy american strikes again crap. This was an area brainfart. Differing from the individual brainfart, the area brainfart covers stupidity and stupid acitons in PROXIMITY to the related incident. Although some laughing and pointing may be appropriate, blame cannot originate from any indivdual.

If this seems too complicated, please PM a mod about ASSHAT removal. It is a free service and can be implemented on a temporary or permanant basis.

See, only moderators can tell Argyll he had a brainfart. If not, Argyll will demand your name, rank, number, blood type, ******** size and weight, sugar or no sugar, milk skimmed or full, comb your hair to the left or right ad naseum as if Argyll, once from the war zone, now massages the mantra of eternal truth with his gimpy hand.

[Kingswat]

See, only moderators can tell Argyll he had a brainfart. If not, Argyll will demand your name, rank, number, blood type, ******** size and weight, sugar or no sugar, milk skimmed or full, comb your hair to the left or right ad naseum as if Argyll, once from the war zone, now massages the mantra of eternal truth with his gimpy hand.

are you a baby? or just a ****ing idiot?

he asked you a simple question and you have still, 4 hours later, yet to answer it.

[Argyll]

See, only moderators can tell Argyll he had a brainfart. If not, Argyll will demand your name, rank, number, blood type, ******** size and weight, sugar or no sugar, milk skimmed or full, comb your hair to the left or right ad naseum as if Argyll, once from the war zone, now massages the mantra of eternal truth with his gimpy hand.

shyt like that's gonna shorten your stay,WARPIG has been around these forums a hell of a lot longer than you,and him and I have not always seen eye to eye either,but he's a serving Member of the Armed Forces and I've known him a long time,so he gets my respect........you've done nothing here to earn yours.......try actually reading what WARPIG said first.

If you don't like what I have to say.........feel free to leave,just don't slam the door on the way out......and you won't be missed either.
WARPIG has verified creds........other than your so called Elite Infantry unit claim you're still lacking credence.

Listen to what others are telling you and you might even get to like me,cept I will not be swapping spit in the shower with you in the Wee small hours of the morning!!

[James]

See, only moderators can tell Argyll he had a brainfart. If not, Argyll will demand your name, rank, number, blood type, ******** size and weight, sugar or no sugar, milk skimmed or full, comb your hair to the left or right ad naseum as if Argyll, once from the war zone, now massages the mantra of eternal truth with his gimpy hand.

It's not because we're mods, it's because you and your 42 posts have a bit more attitude than you should. We know Argyll, but we don't know you, yet you jumped right into this with both guns blazing.

Just relax and don't take things so personally.

[saigonsmuggler]

Banner is right in a way. Sure he has a _lot_ of attitude. However, whenever there's good news reported from Iraq, Argyll is usually there real fast to rain on the parade. If bad news is reported, he's there first to put the blame on the Americans.

I don't get it - your PSD job is there because the Americans went into Iraq. Your salary possibly could well been paid by US tax dollars. Why such vehemence against us Americans?

Did you really see the US military giving such bad performance during your tours for you to have this attitude toward American soldiers?

[ibstolidude]

you see, that's your ****ing problem.
You can complain to me, but all I see is a guy asking from what context you present your knowledge.

All he asked was if you collected your knowledge first hand as a mil member, vet, IC, etc....
...you know have you been anywhere, done anything, and got any:
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/509_1138833565_t-shirt.jpg

[California Joe]

Hey stoli, I heard Argyll doesn't like us because we're Americans.

[ibstolidude]

Hey stoli, I heard Argyll doesn't like us because we're Americans.
I heard the same thing. I first thought it might be the hair, but quickly realized it was our superior accents.

[Argyll]

...........................

Banner is right in a way. Sure he has a _lot_ of attitude. However, whenever there's good news reported from Iraq, Argyll is usually there real fast to rain on the parade. If bad news is reported, he's there first to put the blame on the Americans.

I rain on the parade if the information is not correct,I blame whoever is in the firing line,maybe you missed me talking about the Ukranians who refused to come and help a PSD team under seige during the Mahdi uprising,or when the Spanish were bumming up their troops in Najaf,when the guys from Blackwater told a different version,one where the Spanish were ordered not to return fire?......events that were falsely conveyed to the public,if Americans(who normally do the reporting) are incorrect,then I post based on first hand accounts of their innacuracies

I don't get it - your PSD job is there because the Americans went into Iraq. Your salary possibly could well been paid by US tax dollars. Why such vehemence against us Americans?

So did the British,Spanish,Australian and Polish did you conveniently forget about them....I call a spade a spade,if it's an American spade so be it,if it's an Aussie spade they don't get off any easier

Did you really see the US military giving such bad performance during your tours for you to have this attitude toward American soldiers?

Go back and read what I wrote about the Serving soldiers please

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=70762&page=3

[California Joe]

I heard the same thing. I first thought it might be the hair, but quickly realized it was our superior accents.

and our nunchuck skills and computer hacking skills.....

[ibstolidude]

and our nunchuck skills and computer hacking skills.....
plus my assualt vest is WAY cooler:
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/509_1138834389_getsome.jpg

[Argyll]

Aye but CJ,you know who has the cooler hair........you wannabe like Mike!!

I wish the old man would come back and give us all the Pearls of his wisdom........I miss Tane

[ibstolidude]

...Go back and read what I wrote about the Serving soldiers please
..
player hater... I can't help it if we never make mistakes. Don't be all jealous.


and computer hacking skills.....
I am like uber-l33t retarded when it comes to typing. I am an offense to my own education.

[saigonsmuggler]

No I did not forget about the Brits, Aussies, Polish and others but we all know who were the real force behind the drive to go into Iraq.

Anyway, ok. As long as you are fair about your observations.

[Argyll]

stop hijiacking my domain you pair of fcuks!!

[ibstolidude]

but we all know who were the real force behind the drive to go into Iraq.
Chalabi???


stop hijiacking my domain you pair of fcuks!!
I'll be sitting in the corner if anyone needs me.

[California Joe]

Firstly, I get mad compliments on my hair on my gay myspace page so there.

Secondly, That vest is the bomb. I'm so wearing one next deer season just in case.

Thirdly, Saigonboomboomgirl, Argyll is critical of everyone, I was puzzled by your response until I read your location and then it made a bit more sense.

[Argyll]

No I did not forget about the Brits, Aussies, Polish and others but we all know who were the real force behind the drive to go into Iraq.

Anyway, ok. As long as you are fair about your observations.

Mate,you need to stop and think,without a hell of a lot of other unmentioned countries the US would not have been able to go it alone,it wasn't a one man show,there's no I in TEAMWORK.....I'm as fair as I can be,I don't bullshyt anything,I call it as I see it,can I help it if it's American's that tend to talk crap most of the time?........I have a lot of American mates,I don't hate America or Americans..............to make it easy I just hate everyone!!p-)

[Argyll]

Chalabi???


I'll be sitting in the corner if anyone needs me.

Is this the same Challabi who stole $300 million from funds from a Jordanian bank?........the same guy who's robbed the very people he set out to help then left them with his pockets full of Silver pieces?...........surely not?..p-)

[ibstolidude]

Is this the same Challabi who stole $300 million from funds from a Jordanian bank?........the same guy who's robbed the very people he set out to help then left them with his pockets full of Silver pieces?...........surely not?..p-)

No I mean the one who's exiled Iraqi Congress played a key role in the development of pre-war WMD intel...IIRC also served as the minister of oil production....

Hey wait a minute!!

Oh and ...

there's no I in TEAMWORK
No but there is an EAT ME (if you can use the E twice).

[Argyll]

rofl..............touche.....wanker!!.......:)

[saigonsmuggler]

...Saigonboomboomgirl...

Ahhh thanks for getting your point clear across Cali I feel better now... that was original. :roll:

[Banner_of_America]

How come the blame is on me now? Go back and dredge through Argyll's sloggy posts, if the ratio of positive posts about Americans to negative is more than 1:10, I will re-up tomorrow. **** yeah! High fives, arseslapping and all that.

I am not disputing the man or his experience whatsoever, but the fact is he is constantly moaning and bitching. He can't stand a positive post about Americans nor the war, always ready to give the most negative side of it while blowing away other people's objections. No doubt he has served, but why does he have to bring it up in every thread? "Fruit loops!? Fruits loops suck! When I was Karbala on a solo mission to sabotage some insurgent coconuts, nah you don't what I was talking about, cause you weren't there when fruit loops was invented by me!"

Take the instance above. He said shut up if you don't know the ROE in the GZ, yet he only brings up speed traps as an illogical example. Way to do a head fake, Argyll.

He's back in Scotland for a while isn't it? Still completely in the loop? Has he been invited back to SACEUR briefings, sitting there in the front row with his big red PSD button and leet contract cap pulled to the side?

I have never seen vets so verbal about their experience in so many matters - economics, politics, etc. As usual in his inner tragic-comedy, Americans are the bumbling fools who stagger from ****up to catastrophe yet somehow manage to build the most powerful economy and military in the world.

If I weren't such a nice person, I would suspect he's struggling for relevancy and has a deep yearning for respect.

ps. I would rather drive a VBIED than live in Scotland.

[Argyll]

I don't need your respect,and I wouldn't thank you for it.

yes you know all about me in your 46 posts,you've gone through all 8000 plus of my posts too........like I said,if you have experiences you wish to share with us all please do.......I can't see how a person who has never been in Iraq can have a more accurate view over someone who works there,and has worked there over the last 2 years,nobody else seems to dismiss my own opinions based on what I've seen and done in Iraq,but you seem to keep dodging the questions posed to you.....based on your Operational experiences ,tell me what is it that you seem to be dismissing?
If you were a veteran of combat in Iraq,then I'd respect your views,because you've Been There Done That,but you haven't,the forum members know my background,I'm not high speed,but I work with a lot of former High speed guys,I'm not an Intelligence expert,but I work with plenty who are,ironic you chose to dismiss a 25 year Intelligence expert's opinion in the other thread.....but I guess you are the definative Warrior,who has seen it all and done it all........you are coming across like an airsofter 16 year old,I would not be surprised if you were a teenage student......I've seen your likes pass through here countless times,you comae and blow all hot air,then found wanting,why don't you post Deuteruim your DD114,because if you're not a former "Elite Infantryman",then yo'll be out of here for being a poser.

I have nothing to prove to the forum,they know I'm 100% kosher,you sir on the other hand have everything to prove,I think it's you who's struggling for relevancy,I've been around the block a few times,I'm well known here......

You don't even have the Command for the Middle East correct,it has nothing to do with SACEUR,so you pathetic little attempt at a jibe just compounds my beliefs that you don't know anything about the Middle East and are just gobbing off.Why do I bash the Americans so much well I work for an American company,and I work in their TAO's mostly,last trip I was in the Italians TAO,I didn't sing their praises that high either.The difference bewtween you and me pal is that I'm there doing a job,and I see the fcuk ups first hand.....where do you see them?
You're blatantly trolling here,and it has been duly noted,you're hiding behind anonymity and acting like a hard case on the internet.....I wish I could be like you,it must be so comforting?........
Personal attacks on me and my country must make you feel really secure and all warm and fuzzy inside,your behaviour does not represent that of a muture adult who served in an "Elite" Infantry unit,it's reflective of a pubescent teenager,struggling to come to terms with his his premature ejaculation........
I've nothing but respect for those who wear the uniforms of their respective countries,and those who have earned the BTDT status,so far you've not earned much,and I doubt you will either.......

But please I'd love to hear all about where you get your knowledge on daily life in Iraq,or inside the IZ......the reference to the speed limits and the Radar guns were an observation,they were not there last year,but again you would have known this right?......I found the whole speed gun thing bizarre,that in the middle of a warzone,all the MP's wanted to do was book you for speeding,the USAF MP's even put the Blues and Twos on following a PSD team on the BIAP road,and when they got into BIAP they warned them about speeding on the most dangerous stretch of road in the world........Bizzare is not the word!!!

[California Joe]

Ahhh thanks for getting your point clear across Cali I feel better now... that was original. :roll:

I thought it was funny. And really I only care about cracking me up.

[Atlantic Friend]

How come the blame is on me now? Go back and dredge through Argyll's sloggy posts, if the ratio of positive posts about Americans to negative is more than 1:10, I will re-up tomorrow. **** yeah! High fives, arseslapping and all that.

Banner, the blame is being put on you because you have this tendency to play political kommissar that, I think, gets in the nerves of nearly everybody. Even when you DO have a point, you cancel it by resorting to a frothing-at-the-mouth, "oh, Americans have been pushed around and downtrodden too much in this forum, but here am I to save the day, begone, foul foreigners, and whoever doesn't agree with me is a retard" rhetoric.


I am not disputing the man or his experience whatsoever, but the fact is he is constantly moaning and bitching.

You seem to enjoy a good game of moanin' 'n bitchin' yourself, man.


He can't stand a positive post about Americans nor the war, always ready to give the most negative side of it while blowing away other people's objections.

You mean, totally not like you when you call every dissenter stupid, self-centered anti-American cretins ?


No doubt he has served, but why does he have to bring it up in every thread? "Fruit loops!? Fruits loops suck! When I was Karbala on a solo mission to sabotage some insurgent coconuts, nah you don't what I was talking about, cause you weren't there when fruit loops was invented by me!"

Ah, but don't you wish you could do the same ? ;)


Take the instance above. He said shut up if you don't know the ROE in the GZ, yet he only brings up speed traps as an illogical example. Way to do a head fake, Argyll.

Then show how illogical it is, man. Works better than moaning and indulging into ad hominems. We are all mortals and so we can all be wrong about something, even something we do know about. Why don't you spend a fraction of the energy you use in complaints to teach us a fact or two ? I'm pretty sure intellectual honesty isn't dead in these here parts.


He's back in Scotland for a while isn't it? Still completely in the loop? Has he been invited back to SACEUR briefings, sitting there in the front row with his big red PSD button and leet contract cap pulled to the side?

Frothing at the mouth again ?


I have never seen vets so verbal about their experience in so many matters - economics, politics, etc. As usual in his inner tragic-comedy, Americans are the bumbling fools who stagger from ****up to catastrophe yet somehow manage to build the most powerful economy and military in the world.

I fail to see where Argyll has pictured Americans as bumbling fools. From what I have read of him, he points out mistakes where he sees them, and that is, I am told, one of the fabulous advantages of lviing in a free society where freedom of opinion is not only tolerated but encouraged.

Do you think that, if the PSD guys had beens Australians or Scotsmen, Argyll would have said "oh, that's OK for them to shoot the snooty Canadians, after all" ?


If I weren't such a nice person, I would suspect he's struggling for relevancy and has a deep yearning for respect.

If I weren't such a nice person myself, I would suspect that's one hell of a self-portrait you've done here.


ps. I would rather drive a VBIED than live in Scotland.

Ah, a good old fashioned national slur.

[Bia]

Banner, the blame is being put on you because you have this tendency to play political kommissar that....
.....Ah, a good old fashioned national slur.

Wow!

Excellent sir!
Huge Reps
:)

[Atlantic Friend]

Wow!

Excellent sir!
Huge Reps
:)

Aw, shucks...Just indulging in a little bitchin' myself, I guess.

Tell me, though, for I have sinned through ignorance : what does the acronym BIA stands for ? I knew WIA, MIA, KIA...what is BIA ?

[Holycrusader]

He can't stand a positive post about Americans nor the war, always ready to give the most negative side of it while blowing away other people's objections.

I want to make Banner of America happy...

Americans Rulez, War is Cool...

[szr]

I want to make Banner of America happy...

Americans Rulez, War is Cool...Well you're half right..which is pretty good for you. Keep up the good work!

[Holycrusader]

Well you're half right..which is pretty good for you. Keep up the good work!

Simple answer for simple minds ... Im happy that you found that cool...

[Argyll]

Oh dear,somethings not adding up here........

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060202.wxshooting02/BNStory/National/

[saigonsmuggler]

Everybody is in their CYA mode right now...

[khukuri]

Banner of A.

Its pretty simple. If someone is not happy with how the war in iraq is being done. The USA would automatically get most of the blame because its mostly american troops, american decisions, american planning etc... Other countries get their fare share of critisicm, its just that theyre a small part of it all. If I would like to critisice how its being done in Congo, the fench would be getting most of that critisiscm, why? Becaus their the leading nation with most troops in that operation.

Why cant you take it as critisicm instead of american bashing. If I would think americans, poles or iraqis are doing alot of bad things then theyre doing alot of bad things and I would point that out. Simple as that, but with your way of reasoning one must shut up cuz its anti-american.

[California Joe]

Everybody is in their CYA mode right now...

You're damned right they are. The trouble with that is it means someones recollection of events is off a little bit....The Canadians story is strong based on a simple arguement (hey, we're not retards, we've been doing the same thing for months with no incidents. We have no interst in being shot) and also physical evidence (lack o' skidmarks). The Military is closing ranks. I wonder if this incident would have ever got a mention if it was just an Iraqi cabbie that got his vehicle shot up?