Help needed: German occuptaion vs. French resistance

[GrimReaper]

I need some suggestions for books,articles,online sources etc' regadring the german occupation forces in france vs. the French resistance. Political,economical,diplomatic and military related information.
Thank you very much.

[Crassus]

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewforum.php?f=74&sid=39e7bbd2f4c8649e62c066db80fb62de

[Atlantic Friend]

I need some suggestions for books,articles,online sources etc' regadring the german occupation forces in france vs. the French resistance. Political,economical,diplomatic and military related information.
Thank you very much.

You have an assignment to write ?

[ogukuo72]

I'm not sure if you're going to find much material about the resistance in France. Might be better to do some place like Yugoslavia, Greece or Russia, the resistance and partisans were a lot more active and destructive in those countries.

[GrimReaper]

You have an assignment to write ? Yes,It's actually not military history paper but an international relations one. I just need some base history to work upon.
I've started looking around but while I'm quite informed about the conventional german forces, I'm not so much regarding the anti-resistance/partisan conflict.

[Olybrius]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/285025567X/sr=1-1/qid=1138975145/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-0142767-2463068?%5Fencoding=UTF8
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0531201929/sr=1-7/qid=1138975145/ref=pd_bbs_7/103-0142767-2463068?%5Fencoding=UTF8
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0304365432/sr=1-8/qid=1138975145/ref=pd_bbs_8/103-0142767-2463068?%5Fencoding=UTF8

etc etc
"french resistance" in Amazon...
and there a a lot of website too...;)

[GrimReaper]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/285025567X/sr=1-1/qid=1138975145/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-0142767-2463068?%5Fencoding=UTF8
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0531201929/sr=1-7/qid=1138975145/ref=pd_bbs_7/103-0142767-2463068?%5Fencoding=UTF8
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0304365432/sr=1-8/qid=1138975145/ref=pd_bbs_8/103-0142767-2463068?%5Fencoding=UTF8

etc etc
"french resistance" in Amazon...
and there a a lot of website too...;) I actually know how to use google and search amazon. When asking for recommendations, I meant critic from people who actually read the books they suggest.
Thank you

[Olybrius]

so i guess you are able to read the reviews from those who bought these books

[GrimReaper]

so i guess you are able to read the reviews from those who bought these books Oh boy... I want to hear what people on this forum, people I may know and respect, have to say.

[stonecutter]

I'm not sure if you're going to find much material about the resistance in France. Might be better to do some place like Yugoslavia, Greece or Russia, the resistance and partisans were a lot more active and destructive in those countries.

The Resistance in France played an active role in intelligence gathering, Allied airman rescue, ambushes, and especially delaying the German reinforcements after D-Day. Don't sell it short.
Look up the big Resistance battles of the Vercors, Gliers, and what Nancy Wake ("the White Mouse") did with her group of 7,000 Maquis in the Auvergne, facing 22,000 SS troops in pitched battle.

Nancy Wake:
http://www.nzedge.com/heroes/wake.html

Here is an excellent book written about the French Resistance, IIRC written by a high-ranking member of the OSS who was close to Roosevelt:
http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?S=R&qwork=6185070&qsort=p&siteID=KLVmR9fE2yU-ALQaPm_P4p81mosvgbs8ig

It details not only the activities of the Resistance, but why De Gaulle's relationship with the Americans was so bitter (mostly because the Americans supported Vichy, refused to recognize De Gaulle as leader of the Free French, wanted to print occupation money for France after liberation instead of using Francs, etc...). A very educational book, not only in terms of understanding the role of the Resistance and what it accomplished, but it makes you realize why France's relations with America are testy to this day, because of events that started some 65 years ago.

[Atlantic Friend]

Yes,It's actually not military history paper but an international relations one. I just need some base history to work upon.
I've started looking around but while I'm quite informed about the conventional german forces, I'm not so much regarding the anti-resistance/partisan conflict.

For the geopolitical context, read "The last European War" by John Lukacs. Not the whole book but the first chapters about the mechanic leading to war and the composition of the first Resistance networks in Europe, before Barbarossa and so before Communist parties enter the fray against Germany.

[SPQR]

John Keegan has a concise chapter on the Resistance and its effects (both in France and eastern Europe) in his book:
"The Second World War" published by Penguin Books.
Excellent read and an excellent author!

[ogukuo72]

Let's take a look at the myth of French Resistance.

It is true that a small group of brave men and women were involved in intelligence gathering, sabotage, assisting shot-down airmen to evade and escape, etc., but this number is extremely small. Some estimated at no more than 200,000 active resistance members (out of a population of 41.7M).

In reality, collaboration was much more common in Occupied France than Resistance. For example, the Vichy government cooperated willingly, if not enthusiastically in the deportation of French Jews to the concentration camps.

Of even greater importance is the question whether the French Resistance had any strategic importance at all. One way to look at the question is to ask, "Would it have made a difference if there had been no French Resistance at all?"

The conclusion must be, no, there would not have been a difference. The Allies would not have found it more difficult to liberate France and defeat Germany even if there had been no French resistance.

First, whereas the Germans on the Eastern Front often find that they had to divert precious divisions from the frontlines to help fight the partisans, the German divisions in France did not have to do the same. The Marquis were tame affairs compared to Tito's partisans, or the Polish Home Army, etc.. The Germans never had to divert major military resources to suppress a raging insurgency in France because there was no such insurgency.

Second, the sabotage programme of the French Resistance, even on the eve of Operation Overlord were essentially limited and of questionable value. Allied air interdiction and strategic bombing campaigns played a much greater part in interfereing with and delaying German military movements.

Third, the intelligence provided by the French Resistance formed only a small part of a broader effort. Allied had major sources of intelligence, including the breaking of the Enigma cypher. Knowledge of fortifications were gained through means such as aerial reconnaisance, and brave marines infiltrating the beaches to gather sand, sketch defences, and chip concrete for analysis.

Fourth, the ability of the Allies to train men and produce material was such that the return of the small number of Allied airmen was of limited value.

The impression given by movies like "The Longest Day" gave a completely erroneous impression of the havoc wreaked by the French Resistance. In reality, the French Resistance had almost no impact at all on the D-Day itself. And if the French Resistance had such limited strategic impact on the day of days, what more could they have done, or when could they have done more to aid the liberation of their own country. The answer is, unfortunately, none.

You've quoted an American OSS officer. Allow me to quote a French commentator, Pieter Lagrou:

Armed insurrection, with the exception of isolated areas in France, was rare and violent actions took the form of pointed guerilla attacks on German and more often collaborationist personnel and infrastructure. The resistance activities most relevant from the military point of view, intelligence for the allied services, involved only small nuclei of specialists. Large scale military involvement of resisters from the 'internal front' had been carefully prepared, but only started with the arrival of the allied troops and performed a secondary, supportive role. Though often very useful, the 'internal front' was not a decisive factor in the military outcome of the Second World War. Faced with relentless persecution, organized on a spontaneous basis outside of the traditional social and political networks, armed resistance required exceptional courage and therefore attracted people with an unconventional profile, inclined to radical action at high risks. This type of resistance inevitably was the feat of a radicalized minority. The national political resistance bodies, involving conventional political forces and striving for representativeness, were first of all concerned with the future reconstruction of their national political life, and allowed a much lower priority to the fight against the occupier.

http://www.ihtp.cnrs.fr/equipe/Lagrou/politics_memory_pl.html

[roland]

Let's take a look at the myth of French Resistance.

It is true that a small group of brave men and women were involved in intelligence gathering, sabotage, assisting shot-down airmen to evade and escape, etc., but this number is extremely small. Some estimated at no more than 200,000 active resistance members (out of a population of 41.7M).


correct except that 200 000 isn't extremly small specially since they were very close to the enemy, often had infiltered him and were surrounded by 41 M sympatizers.



In reality, collaboration was much more common in Occupied France than Resistance. For example, the Vichy government cooperated willingly, if not enthusiastically in the deportation of French Jews to the concentration camps.

you fvcking liar. The French didn't deported French Jews !
Among all the invaded country it's in France where the proportion of Jews who got deported is the lower.
What's true is that a huge majority of French, until 1944, supported Petain but that did NOT made them collaborators. Even the Vichy regime was neutral until the Germans broke the armistice treaty and invaded south France in late 1942. Most French thought that Petain was playing a double game with the Germans and a lot of signs show that they weren't completely wrong. Petain was ambiguous but he was too old. remember Petain was a great hero of WWI, he almost saved France then, he was trusted and nobody could imagine he could be a traitor.
We go off topic here but you should think twice before saying things like that you sob.



Of even greater importance is the question whether the French Resistance had any strategic importance at all. One way to look at the question is to ask, "Would it have made a difference if there had been no French Resistance at all?"


Between January and June 1943, there were 130 acts of sabotage against rail lines each month.
By September 1943, this had increased to 530. The disruption to the Germans ability to move equipment was massive.
By the spring of 1944, there were 60 intelligence cells whose task was solely to collect intelligence as opposed to carrying out acts of sabotage.
In the build up to D-Day, the intelligence they gathered was vital. In May 1944 alone, they sent 3,000 written reports to the Allies and 700 wireless reports. Between April and May, the resistance destroyed 1,800 railway engines. When this figure is added to the 2,400 destroyed by Allied bombers, it is easy to understand why the Germans had such difficulty transporting equipment across France.
Post-war analysis of the success of the resistance shows that the 150 most successful acts of sabotage against factories in France between 1943 and 1944, used just 3,000 lbs of explosives - the equivalent of the bomb load of one single Mosquito plane.

Also the resistance had a great political importance for France as the Gaullist took the power in the town and village even before the allied armies arrived so the Americans could never install there own administration or money on France.



The conclusion must be, no, there would not have been a difference. The Allies would not have found it more difficult to liberate France and defeat Germany even if there had been no French resistance.

not completely wrong as far as the big picture is concerned. But for the war in France and for France it's far from negligible, specially if you consider the French army, the Free French that were in september 1944, 500,000 very good troops and well armed by uncle Sam but ok, that's not the resistance.



First, whereas the Germans on the Eastern Front often find that they had to divert precious divisions from the frontlines to help fight the partisans, the German divisions in France did not have to do the same.
The Marquis were tame affairs compared to Tito's partisans, or the Polish Home Army, etc.. The Germans never had to divert major military resources to suppress a raging insurgency in France because there was no such insurgency.


Correct. As far as armed resistance is concerned, it was very little before D Day and it was almost exclusivelly Communist. The Gaulists disaproved it because it was too costly in term of casualties (massive reprisals) and for the moment they prefered to stay underground and prepare for the D Day in cooperation with the allies.
But that's also because the Germans were so few, in trust, and softened by good life and fake smiles, that the Resistance, with little force, could liberate 1/3 of France by itself after D Day.
After D Day the Germans were quite surprised when they suddenly lost control of all the countryside.



Second, the sabotage programme of the French Resistance, even on the eve of Operation Overlord were essentially limited and of questionable value. Allied air interdiction and strategic bombing campaigns played a much greater part in interfereing with and delaying German military movements.
Often it is the resistance that said:
1) where to look, and where to hit,
2) if the bombing was effective or if a second pass was necessary.



Third, the intelligence provided by the French Resistance formed only a small part of a broader effort. Allied had major sources of intelligence, including the breaking of the Enigma cypher. Knowledge of fortifications were gained through means such as aerial reconnaisance, and brave marines infiltrating the beaches to gather sand, sketch defences, and chip concrete for analysis.

As far as France is concerned, completely wrong.
There was almost never a aerial reconnaisance sent before the allies previously recieved a report about something interesting coming from the resistance.
So the resistance indicated something to the Brits, that sended a reconnaissance aircraft that took pictures then they told to the Americans or there own bombers: "our reconnaisance have discovered that ...." and the bombers guys to think "what ases those reconnaisance guys !"
You can't be more wrong and NEVER in history an army knew so well its oponent than the allies during WWII in France.



Fourth, the ability of the Allies to train men and produce material was such that the return of the small number of Allied airmen was of limited value.

that's with little stream that you make big rivers.

[Hessian]

There were a lot of FRENCH who helped the Germans... talk to a German who was there during the war they will tell you about it.

Its a black mark on French history... thats why they executed so many of their people for helping the Germans. Say what you will but history is history, many USA Veterans from WWII talk about how surprised they were by what they found.

Weak...

[roland]

There were a lot of FRENCH who helped the Germans... talk to a German who was there during the war they will tell you about it.

Its a black mark on French history... thats why they executed so many of their people for helping the Germans. Say what you will but history is history, many USA Veterans from WWII talk about how surprised they were by what they found.

Weak...

signal / noise ratio ~ 0 dB

try again with some substance I can counter instead of your generalities.


thats why they executed so many of their people for helping the Germans.
who are you talking about ?how many ?why ? at what occasion ?

[Johnny_H02]

Oh boy... I want to hear what people on this forum, people I may know and respect, have to say.

Sorry people are being ****heads, the only thing I have read about the Reich VS resistance really was in

http://www.motorbooks.com/Store/Product_Details.aspx?ProductID=9514

There is a segment in this book about the units encounters with the resistance and the massacre of Oradour ( which had to do with that division delivering thier corrupt sense of justice against the Resistance by killing over 100 women and children in a church )

Other then that I am not really all that informed on the subject.

[Johnny_H02]

signal / noise ratio ~ 0 dB

try again with some substance I can counter instead of your generalities.


who are you talking about ?how many ?why ? at what occasion ?

No its true, I cannot give you specifics but it did happen on a massive scale collaborators were often Shot or Beat down its up to you to research it, far less of the Male collaborators were shot in France then say Holland but that isnt for certain just what I have picked up here and there.

The female collaborators or those with German Children of families as a result of the occupation were stripped and had thier heads shaved in public for thier shame, and were kicked out of thier respective towns and cities, this is referanced by more then a few writers on the subject as well as witnessed by a few Vet's who survived and wrote memiors.

it was nasty business, but it happened, knit picking trying to squeeze someone into providing names, address's, dates and phone numbers does not mean you are debating the facts. Im not launching into you and it isnt my desire to start a "Debate" or "Flame baite" I am just saying its pretty well known and accepted that most times Collaborators in Europe were shot, hanged or brutally disciplined by thier own countrymen.

[fantassin]

Just a few examples of French Résistance actions in WW2:

But before, as a reminder, General Dwight D. Eisenhower wrote: "Throughout France the Resistance had been of inestimable value in the campaign. Without their great assistance the liberation of France would have consumed a much longer time and meant greater losses to ourselves."

FFI (Forces Françaises de l'Intérieur - French Forces of the Interior) - about 200000 men.

Several major engagements can be reported for the French resistance:

LES GLIÈRES
In February 1944, on this plateau, 450 maquis members under the command of officers from the 27th "chasseurs alpins" battalion, were besieged by 2000 French militiamen and police. Although they suffered from starvation and frigid conditions, they collected three parachute drops consisting of about three hundred containers packed with small arms (Sten submachine guns, Enfield rifles, Bren light machine guns, Mills grenades) and explosives. The Maquis' major handicap for military action was its lack of heavy weapons : the plateau of Glières battalion had only several old machine guns and two 81 mm light mortars.
After a bloody skirmish with the Vichy forces, the attackers failed to seize the plateau. The Vichy government agreed that the Germans would step in if the Vichy forces had not quickly reduced the open rebellion at Glières. On the 12th of March 1944, after the largest Allied parachute drop, the Germans started to bomb the area with ground attack aircraft. The French Militia staged several attacks, but they ended in failure. On the 23th of March, three battalions from the 157th Reserve Division of the Wehrmacht and two German police battalions, composed of about 5000 men with HMG, 80 mm mortars, 75 mm mountain guns, 150 mm howitzers and armored cars, concentrated for the assault.
Reason told the maquisards to withdraw while they still had time. Reason but not honor. With a verbal duel for several weeks between two talented radio announcers - one for the BBC and the other for Radio Paris (occupied)- word had seeped out of France, Britain and America that a great and glorious uprising had taken place in southeast France. Clearly, Glières had become an important element in the psychological warfare. To honor the French Resistance, Capt. Anjot, an experienced, thoughtful and impassive officer, would fight in the face of defeat, but his aim was to save most of his men's lives.
Finally, on the 26th of March 1944, after another air raid and shelling, the Germans took the offensive. They split their attacking parties into three KG and designated to each one specific target. Reconnaissance was carried out by ski patrols dressed in white camouflage. One of the patrols with a Gebirgsjäger platoon made an attack on the main exit to the plateau and captured an advanced post in the rear. Sustaining the attack from about 50 German soldiers, 18 maquisards fought and resisted into the night, but were outnumbered and overwhelmed. At 10 o'clock, Capt. Anjot thought honor had been satisfied and ordered the Glières battalion to retreat. In the days that followed, Capt. Anjot and almost all his officers as well as 200 maquisards had been killed in battle or, if taken prisoner, had been tortured, shot or deported. For the Germans, the maquisards were not regulars but terrorists.

LE VERCORS
In June 1944, 4000 maquis members concentrated on this plateau in the foolish aim to held it like a fortified area. First a German Gebirgsdivision couldn't defeat them but then, end of July another assault with about 15000 men, artillery support and the landing of gliders with Brandenburgers defeated the defenders who had no supply and no support.
The French resistants had lost the desperate battle but mobilized important German forces. More than 600 French were killed and a little more than 100 Germans too. In reprisal, several villages (573 houses) have been burned, 200 civilians killed and 40 deported.

LE MONT MOUCHET
On these mountains, 6000 maquisards delayed 2 German divisions supported by the Luftwaffe in June 1944. They were defeated (killed, captured or escaped) but the Germans lost about 1000 men and 10 Panzers. Once again the closest villages (Clavières , Auvers , Pinols , Dièges and Paulhac) have been destructed after the battle as a revenge.

SAINT MARCEL
In the night of 5 june 1944, 4 sticks of 4th SAS were dropped on north and south Brittany to prepare SAS bases ("Samwest", "Dingson", "Grog"), to take contact with local Resistance and established DZ and LZ for the Battalion. The mission of French SAS was to destroy all communication ways, to get ambushes and sabotages to prevent all enemies movements toward Normandy. These men were the first allied soldiers to come and fight in France for D-Day. This fact was a decision of General Montgomery. Immediately after his landing, a stick (Lt Marienne the commanding officer) was obliged to fight with a troop of Nazis (Ukrainians from Vlassov's army), and Corporal Bouétard was wounded and killed by a German NCO. It was the first allied soldier KIA in D-Day operation. One night after the D-Day, 18 French SAS teams known as "Cooney parties" were dropped on all parts of Brittany to accomplish sabotages on railways, roads etc.. in the way to cut all possibilities for enemy to go to Normandy beachhead. At this time in Brittany about 150000 enemies (Infantry, Paratroopers, Engineers, Artillery etc...) are ready to go on Normandy landing areas... Night after night, sticks of French SAS -4th Battalion- and containers were dropped in the area of St-Marcel (Morbihan)-"Baleine DZ" to accomplish ambushes and sabotages and all actions were successful. They assembled about 10000 French resistants to fight with them. The French SAS were never more than 450 men in that area. The 18th june in the villages of Saint-Marcel and Serent an epic fight was realized by 200 SAS, 4 armed jeeps and 2500 men of the French resistance (FFI) against more than 5000 Germans with 81mm mortars. Along the day, French resisted to the attacks helped in the afternoon by CAS provided by P47s from the USAF but at night they had to leave the battle area and get back in the maquis. During all July the SAS could realized many important missions in the way to stop and destroy the German forces. Several SAS jeeps raids took many prisoners.

STRASBOURG
In Alsace about 25% of the allied Forces are composed of French troops. And the now organized FFI (French Forces of the Interior) have been used as suppletive troops of the 1st French Army of General De Lattre. During Operation "Nordwind" an FFI battalion was almost destroyed but blocked the road of Strasbourg.

All these battle (except made of St Marcel and Strasbourg) were led in mountain areas, more easy to defend. These defeats would be transformed into a moral victory and give a boost to the French Resistance. Before and following the allied landings in June 1944, the French Resistance, developed into a strategic weapon, informed the Allies on the German defense, directed sabotage against war industries, supply depots, railroads, telecommunications, and delayed enemy road movements through guerrilla action.
However the German forces launched against the French resistant were second line troops (Osttruppen etc.) except some Waffen SS and Gebirgsjäger in the Glières. The actions of the FFI in the Normandy pockets has to be relativised because they had no heavy weapons, their task was mainly to occupy the liberated areas and retain german forces, the harbors of Lorient and St Nazaire for example surrendered only in 1945.
After the landings, the underground army of FFI (Forces Françaises de l'Intérieur - French Forces of the Interior) created on 1st February 1944 and made up with the different resistance organizations, numbered about 200000 men. In June 1944, the French Resistance, developed into a strategic weapon, informed the Allies on the German defense, directed sabotage against war industries, supply depots, railroads, telecommunications, and delayed enemy road movements through guerrilla action and several times fought directly but with no heavy support. In august 1944, 80000 of them had the task to reduce some pockets in Normandy and they captured 20000 Germans. The French Forces of the Interior had "impressed Allied leaders as having made a substantial contribution to the defeat of the enemy" as recognized by De Gaulle, Churchill and Ike. The FFI participated to actively to the liberation of Paris and then integrated the forces to liberate France.

The FFL (Forces Françaises Libres - Free French Forces) were about 500000 men strong (560000 men on 1st September 1944 and 1 million men end 1944)

[roland]

No its true, I cannot give you specifics but it did happen on a massive scale collaborators were often Shot or Beat down its up to you to research it, far less of the Male collaborators were shot in France then say Holland but that isnt for certain just what I have picked up here and there.


Ah ok, Hessian was speaking of the massacre of collaborators. I thought he was speaking of something else. Sorry Hessian.
Then it's true a lot of collaborator were massacred at the liberation and there is no shame at all in that. France traditionally treat well it's enemy prisoner but not well the traitors.
But after some a short time the new French autorities wistled the end of the party and the collaborators were properly judged. .. and a lot condemned to death sentence anyway.
Around 15 000 traitors were massacred during what we call the "epuration".

[ogukuo72]

that's with little stream that you make big rivers.

You have made good points Roland, and I am unaware of some of the data that you've quoted.

I must emphasise that I'm not saying that there were no brave Frenchmen fighting against the fascists. There were. One of the most strategically important (and little known) battles fought in North Africa was the Battle of Bir Hakeim.


The Battle of Bir Hakeim (May 26, 1942 - June 11, 1942) was fought, during World War II, between the German/Italian Afrika Korps and the 1st Free French Brigade, with support from the British 7th Armoured Division. The German commander was Generaloberst Erwin Rommel and the French commander was General Marie Pierre Koenig.

The Germans attacked Bir Hakeim on May 26. Over the next two weeks, the Luftwaffe flew 1,400 sorties against the defenses, whilst 4 German/Italian divisions attacked. On June 2, 3, and 5, the German forces requested that Koenig surrender, he refused and launched counterattacks with his Bren gun carriers. Despite the explosion of the defence's ammunition dump, the French continued to fight using ammunition brought in by British armored cars during the night. Meanwhile, the Royal Air Force dropped water and other supplies.

On June 9, the British Eighth Army authorized a retreat and during the night of June 10/June 11 the defenders of Bir Hakeim escaped.

This battle allowed the British Army to retreat in good order to a secure defensive line to prepare for their counter-attack. That defensive line is El Alamein.

I am also not questioning the bravery of the men and women of the Resistance. Men like Jean Moulin were extraordinary brave and resourceful, and organised the many different parties and factions into an alliance, if not actually a single organisation.


In 1939 he was appointed préfet of the Eure-et-Loir region. The Germans arrested him in June 1940 because he refused to sign a German document that wrongly blamed Senegalese French Army troops for civilian massacres. In prison, he attempted suicide by cutting his throat with a piece of broken glass. This left him with a scar that he would often hide with his scarf.

In November 1940, the Vichy government ordered all prefects to dismiss left-wing elected mayors of towns and villages. When Moulin refused he was himself removed from office. He then lived in Saint-Andiol (Bouches-du-Rhône), and joined the resistance. He reached London in September 1941 under the name Joseph Jean Mercier, and met General Charles de Gaulle, who asked him to unify the various resistance groups. On January 1, 1942, he was parachuted in the Alpilles. Under the codenames Rex and Max, he met with the leaders of the resistance groups:

* Henri Frenay (Combat)
* Emmanuel d'Astier (Libération)
* Jean-Pierre Lévy (Francs-Tireur)
* Pierre Villon (Front National, not to be confused with the present-day far-right French political party Front National)
* Pierre Brossolette (Comité d'Action Socialiste)

In February 1943, he went back to London, accompanied by Charles Delestraint, head of the new armée secrète group. He left on March 21, 1943, ordered to form the Conseil National de la Résistance (CNR), a difficult task, since each movement wanted to keep their independence. The first meeting of the CNR took place in Paris, on May 27, 1943.

Jean Moulin was arrested June 21, 1943 in Caluire-et-Cuire (Rhône), in Doctor Frédéric Dugoujon's house, where a meeting with most of the resistance leaders was taking place. Interrogated in Lyon, and later in Paris, by Klaus Barbie, head of the Gestapo, he never revealed anything to his captors. He eventually died, near Metz, in the Paris-Berlin train which was taking him to the concentration camps.

And then, there were the men and women of the SOE:


SOE's operations in France were directed by two London-based country sections. The "F" Section, under British control, recruited agents who were not prepared to accept the leadership of General De Gaulle, while the "RF" Section was linked to de Gaulle's Free French operations. As well, there were two smaller sections: "EU/P" Section, which dealt with the Polish community in France and the "DF" Section which was responsible for escape routes and coordination. During the latter part of 1942 another section known as 'AMF' was established in Algiers.

The initial training centre of the SOE was at Wanborough Manor, Guildford. The SOE included a number of women; its F Section (France) alone placed 39 female agents in to the field, of whom 13 did not return. The Valençay SOE Memorial was unveiled at Valençay in the Indre département of France on May 6, 1991, marking the fiftieth anniversary of the despatch of F Section's first agent to France. The memorial's "Roll of Honour" lists the names of the 91 men and 13 women members of the SOE who gave their lives for France's freedom.

[Atlantic Friend]

Let's take a look at the myth of French Resistance.

It is true that a small group of brave men and women were involved in intelligence gathering, sabotage, assisting shot-down airmen to evade and escape, etc., but this number is extremely small. Some estimated at no more than 200,000 active resistance members (out of a population of 41.7M).

Are you saying you brush aside the 200,000 you count as Resistants as a simple myth ?


In reality, collaboration was much more common in Occupied France than Resistance. For example, the Vichy government cooperated willingly, if not enthusiastically in the deportation of French Jews to the concentration camps.

Watch out, you are mixing a bit of everything here. First, the Vichy government's authority was limited to NON-Occupied France. Occupied France was run by the German occupation forces.

About the French Jews, by the way. In Belgium, around 50% of Belgian Jews died in WW2. In Poland, more than 90% of them died. In France, 60% of them...survived. Do you think they could have survived without the help of local populations, that took risks to hide and feed them and help them crosss borders into Spain ?


Of even greater importance is the question whether the French Resistance had any strategic importance at all. One way to look at the question is to ask, "Would it have made a difference if there had been no French Resistance at all?"

A rather known US General, Dwight D Eisenhower, who had some responsibilities in designing the plans for D-DAY, already answered that question. He said the contribution of the French Resistance was akin to having 20 more divisions on the field.


The conclusion must be, no, there would not have been a difference. The Allies would not have found it more difficult to liberate France and defeat Germany even if there had been no French resistance.

I wonder where these conclusions come from. Basically, you are saying the Allies would have felt no difference if, say, the German SS-Panzerdivision Das Reich had not been delayed in its rush to the beachehad, where it was supposed to counter-attack ? They would have felt no difference if the plans of the Atlantic Wall hadn't been passed to Allied headquarters by Resistance movements ?


First, whereas the Germans on the Eastern Front often find that they had to divert precious divisions from the frontlines to help fight the partisans, the German divisions in France did not have to do the same.

Well, the French region of Limousin was called Little Russia by German troops, and I'm pretty sure it was not because of snow on poplar trees.


The Marquis were tame affairs compared to Tito's partisans, or the Polish Home Army, etc.. The Germans never had to divert major military resources to suppress a raging insurgency in France because there was no such insurgency.

Because the French Resistance movements were not armed or organized as fighting units from 1940 onwards. Because the Allied forces wanted intelligence more than uprising (a tactic they used not only in France, but in Belgium, Holland, Czechoslowakia, Denmark, Norway, etc).

Where and when the circumstances were favorable (and sometimes not even then) French Resistance movements stepped out of clandestine action and into open military action, such as in the Vercors, in Limousin, or in Paris, or in Britanny, or again in centrak western France to delay the German troops rushing to counter-attack the beacheads. Oh, and it's Maquis, not Marquis.


Second, the sabotage programme of the French Resistance, even on the eve of Operation Overlord were essentially limited and of questionable value. Allied air interdiction and strategic bombing campaigns played a much greater part in interfereing with and delaying German military movements.

I strongly suggest you read "D-Day" by Stephen Ambrose and "The Secret War" by Anthony Cave Brown. Or that you pay a visit to the Liberation Museum on your next trip to Paris, as they show an interestring diagram showing the number of trains sabotaged by the Resistance, trains that else would have been used to ferry troops and matériel. There was also a little booklet titled "Our friends the French" that was given to US GIs on duty in France, trying to clarify the extent of industrial sabotage by the Resistance.


Third, the intelligence provided by the French Resistance formed only a small part of a broader effort. Allied had major sources of intelligence, including the breaking of the Enigma cypher. Knowledge of fortifications were gained through means such as aerial reconnaisance, and brave marines infiltrating the beaches to gather sand, sketch defences, and chip concrete for analysis.

As you may know, intelligence cann,ot rely on SIGINT alone. But since you speak of Enigma, know that the Allied knowledge about the machine was brought to Allied headquarters by Polish and French Resistants. Not machine-gun types, intel types.

You seem strangely intent of discarding French Resistants as a brave but mostly small and above all totally useless bunch, Ogukuo... I again urge you to read both "D-DAY" by Stephen Ambrose and "The Secret War" by Anthony Cave Brown.


Fourth, the ability of the Allies to train men and produce material was such that the return of the small number of Allied airmen was of limited value.

I'm sure the downed airmen will appreciate your concern for their safety ! ;)


The impression given by movies like "The Longest Day" gave a completely erroneous impression of the havoc wreaked by the French Resistance. In reality, the French Resistance had almost no impact at all on the D-Day itself.

Do you think you know better then Dwight D. Eisenhower and the Allied HQ planners that spent money, time, weapons and lives building up the Resistance movements ? I'm pretty sure they devoted so much energy and means because they felt it was necessary and efficient.

Too bad we can't travel in time and tell them their efforts served no purpose ! :roll:


And if the French Resistance had such limited strategic impact on the day of days, what more could they have done, or when could they have done more to aid the liberation of their own country. The answer is, unfortunately, none.

Watch out, rewriting history to fit one's national prejudices is one thing, belittling the sacrifice of the thousands of Resistants that got jailed, tortured and murdered because they wanted to help the Allied cause is another.

The Resistance action in the "day of days" is recounted by many Allied officers, including the most prestigious ones, like Eisehower and its "20 divisions" remark, or Patton, who said that the 3rd Army rapid advance in France wouldn't have been possible without FFI action. The Liberation of Paris was first of all a resistance uprising, then helped by Free French and US troops.

[Olybrius]

About the French Jews, by the way. In Belgium, 50-60% of Belgian Jews died in WW2. In POland, 90% of them died. In France, 60% of them...survived. Do you think they could have survived without the help of local populations, that took risks to hide and feed them and help them crosss borders into Spain ?

78% survived
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-statistics.htm

[Atlantic Friend]

78% survived
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-statistics.htm

Isn't that the number of FRENCH Jews who survived ? I thought the overall number of Jews living in France and surviving WW2, regardless of their nationality, was around 60%. But I may be wrong.

[Olybrius]

Isn't that the number of FRENCH Jews who survived ? I thought the overall number of Jews living in France and surviving WW2, regardless of their nationality, was around 60%. But I may be wrong.

it includes foreign refugees :
http://www.kimel.net/what.html

[Atlantic Friend]

it includes foreign refugees :
http://www.kimel.net/what.html

Then I stand corrected.

[AROUETLJ]

Someone mentioned a book by John Keegan. I'd be wary of anything he writes. He's so parochial in his views sometimes, and a bit too jingoistic in his praise for anything which Britain has done. Of course the facts he supplies are correct, but he's quite selective in what he presents.

[ogukuo72]

Are you saying you brush aside the 200,000 you count as Resistants as a simple myth ?

No, no. I'm not questioning that there were at least 200,000 resistance member. There are possibly many more.

And I'm also not questioning that there were very brave French men and women. I've mentioned Jean Moulin and the 1st Free French Brigade above.

Going back to the original context of the thread, I am simplying saying that it would be more interesting to look at countries such as Yugoslavia and Poland. These countries saw a much larger percentage of their population engaged directly in patriotic struggles against the German, made more heroic sacrifices, and had much more impact on the war.

It would also have been more interesting to look at Scandanavian countries such as Denmark, which openly defied the Germans and helped nearly all of their Jewish citizens to escape.

And then, there's Norway, which had a special contribution to the war. The resistance in Norway probably accomplished one of the greatest strategic feats for a resistance group in WW2 by first blowing up the Norsk Hydro heavy water plant and the heavy water stockpile at Vemork, as well as the sinking of the ferry carrying the last of the heavy water at lake Tinnsjø. This effectively killed off any chance of a German atomic bomb.

In addition, Norwegian agents assisted in spotting German capital ships sailing through the North Sea on the way to sail through the GIUK gap. They played at part in the spotting of the Bismarck. They also helped to gather valuable intelligence that actually helped the RAF, the RN Fleet Air Arms, and RN X-Craft submarines to attack the Tirpitz. Norwegian agents actually participated in one of the failed attacks on Tirpitz using diving chariots towed beneath a Norwegian fishing boat.

In fact, come to think of it, the Norwegian Resistance Movement would probably make the most exciting study of all.

[stonecutter]

A rather known US General, Dwight D Eisenhower, who had some responsibilities in designing the plans for D-DAY, already answered that question. He said the contribution of the French Resistance was akin to having 20 more divisions on the field.
I wonder where these conclusions come from. Basically, you are saying the Allies would have felt no difference if, say, the German SS-Panzerdivision Das Reich had not been delayed in its rush to the beachehad, where it was supposed to counter-attack ? .

I believe Eisenhower said that help from the French Resistance during and after D-Day had been the equivalent of the Allies having an extra 10 Divisions on the ground, not 20. But your point still stands.

I think Ogukuo has been a tad affected by Republican anti-French propaganda in his blanket dismissal of what was accomplished by the Resistance? Well, at least you admit there were some brave men and women. As for intelligence, IIRC the Atlantic wall defenses were known to the Allies not because of aerial reconnaissance, but because the French Resistance obtained the actual blueprints for the thing and sent them over to England. Will try to find the link.

Yeah, there were lots of collaborators. But guess what, guys? How many of your mighty German supermen also collaborated with the Soviets following the end of the war? Hmmm -- I seem to remember that not long ago the East German secret police files were made public, and many, many Germans were shocked to find out that they had been informed on by their neighbours. It was a big deal. We shouldn't be so quick to judge the survival responses of people living under terror regimes (Gestapo and NKVD states).

As an interesting side-note, if you read General Chuck Yeager's biography, you'll see that after his P-51 was shot down over France, he was picked up by the French Resistance and moved around the country under the German's noses, then finally over the Pyrennees into Spain. He has a few pages describing the Maquis -- very interesting reading. He certainly had nothing bad to say about them! Even if, as some say, the French Resistance didn't alter the outcome of the war, what they did do is save many Allied soldier's lives through their intelligence and delaying actions (especially after D-Day), as well as help restore some measure of national honour. And for that, it was definitely worthwhile.

[stonecutter]

There is a segment in this book about the units encounters with the resistance and the massacre of Oradour ( which had to do with that division delivering thier corrupt sense of justice against the Resistance by killing over 100 women and children in a church )


Try over 640 women and children executed.

[fantassin]

Quote:

"Going back to the original context of the thread, I am simplying saying that it would be more interesting to look at countries such as Yugoslavia and Poland".


The geography of those countries was much more favourable to partisan warfare because of the lack of black-topped road, mountains in Yugoslavia and general lesser level of development; plus, opposing the Germans with "units" was a stupid thing to do because that was exactly what they wanted to apply their superior firepower.
Every such confrontation ended in defeat and retreat for under-equipped, malnourished and beleaguered résistance "units".

[Johnny_H02]

Try over 640 women and children executed.

I do believe I stand Corrected, like i said im not too well read on the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane

[Atlantic Friend]

Sorry people are being ****heads, the only thing I have read about the Reich VS resistance really was in

http://www.motorbooks.com/Store/Product_Details.aspx?ProductID=9514

There is a segment in this book about the units encounters with the resistance and the massacre of Oradour ( which had to do with that division delivering thier corrupt sense of justice against the Resistance by killing over 100 women and children in a church )

Other then that I am not really all that informed on the subject.

Oradour sur Glane was courtesy of the "Das Reich" SS-Panzerdivision. Stationed in central France, it was one of the units slated for an immediate armored counterattack against any Allied beachhead, once the site of the invasion coreectly identified.

As such, the "Das Reich" was targeted by Resistance movements involved in the D-Day operation, and their task was to delay it as much as possible> And delay it they did. Although going through central France to Normandy should have been a 2 to 3-day trip, the "Das Reich" needed two WEEKS to reach the front, inching from roadblock to ambush.

During one of the ambushes, the German officers acknowledged the Resistants that were harassing them either were based in the neighboring little town of Oradour or had been given support by the locals. While the townsmen were working in fields out of town, the Germans surrounded the village. Some children were killed by being thrown into the town's well and villagers trying to flee were machine-gunned. The rest of the population, mostly women, elderly and kids, were locked up into the Oradour church, which was doused in gasoline and set ablaze, while German troops remained ready to shoot at any people trying to escape.

And so Oradour sur Glane met its doom, like 32 other French villages.

[ogukuo72]

We need to look more closely at the Das Reich story. The primary reason for the long march was because of Allied interdiction effort and Allied air superiority.

Das Reich was equipped with heavy tanks such as the Panther and the Tiger, and these tanks do not road march as well as the Allied tanks. They were usually transported by rail until close to the front before driving the short distance to combat.

Allied air interdiction and fighter-bomber efforts forced the division to road march, as rails interchanges and lines were knocked out, and trains attacked on the remaining servicable tracks. This caused frequent breakdowns in the tanks. Given the narrow French roads that had to be travelled over and the huge size of the tanks (a Tiger is almost 55 tonnes), a single tank break down often led to long traffic jams down the line.

The French Resistance DID attacked the Das Reich on the march. But with such slender guerilla forces, it is not surprising that attacking a full armoured division proved foolhardy and ultimately ineffectual.

All in all, I would say that Allied air superiority played a greater part.

I must emphasise that I'm not saying that the French Resistance was a bunch of boy scouts running around playing cowboys and indians with the Germans, or that the French Resistance had an easy time in the Provence countryside. These were extraordinarily brave men and women who did contribute much to the Allied war effort. These men and women deserve our respect, no matter what their nationality.

But what about the rest of France?

What about the other 41,500,000 French men and women, after you've taken out the brave 200,000? What about the other 99.6% of the population? Would the French Resistance and SOE had had such a hard time if not because of the lack of support from the rest of the population? Betrayals by French collaborators of the Resistance was a common theme in the literature mentioned by some of those who posted here. It was only when the Allies have landed that - suddenly - the French Resistance found that they have so many patriotic compatriots.

What about the Vichy government? Why did it prove so enthusiastic about assisting the Germans in rounding up Jews and in resisting the Allies? Could the Vichy government have been so successful if ordinary French men and women had not cooperated? Why did the French not hide the Jews? It was not impossible.

The French village of Le Chambon did not turn away any Jews that sought them for help, and hid them and smuggled them out of the country. So it was possible, and a few brave French men and women were heroically involved in it. But so much more could have been done. If the French had only been like the Danes, 83,000 lives would not have been lost.

It is ironical that when it comes to protecting the Jews against German genocide, the Italians and the Spainards actually did much better.

Spain lost no Jews to the Holocaust. They refused even to join the war on the German side, despite Hitler's urgings. They turned a blind eye to Jewish refugees that came across their borders.

Italy also refused Hitler's urgings to join the pogrom against the Jews, and refused to discriminate against them. Many of the 8,000 casualties to the Holocaust was a result of German occupation of Italy after the Italian surrender, and the Italians then became ferocious enemies of the Germans, both as regular armed forces and partisans.

And both Spain and Italy were facists!

By comparison, the French cooperation in the Holocaust is almost enthusiastic.

[roland]

@ogukuo: you've learn history in the Sun or the Washington Time and it shows.

Lets go:



But what about the rest of France?

What about the other 41,500,000 French men and women, after you've taken out the brave 200,000? What about the other 99.6% of the population? Would the French Resistance and SOE had had such a hard time if not because of the lack of support from the rest of the population?

What make you think there was a lack of support ?
France had been stollen its most deared part, Alsace and Lorraine in 1870, sufferend immensely during WWI, had been invaded, plundered and humiliated by the Germans in WWII, do you realy think the average French people liked the Germans ?
Do you think any resistance could have existed without at least passive support ?
- The resistants were a tiny minority that kept growing and growing until they represented a sizeable force,
- The collaborators were a tiny minority of oportunist, fool that got caught by the heavy propaganda or Nazi idealists, that were deeply hated by the population, even more than the Nazis,
- The huge majority of the population was starving and busy surviving and feeding there childrens. Despite the heavy propaganda, they deeply hated the invader, turned blind eyes to resistants and Jews, if only to avoid more trouble, and waited the first occasion to stab the invader.



Betrayals by French collaborators of the Resistance was a common theme in the literature mentioned by some of those who posted here.

What you call betrayal is when one got captured and speak under torture. You have something to say about that ?
Even the number of those who didn't spoke and died under torture is simply incredible.
also, the Abwier (sp) and the Gestapo did there police work, infiltrating resistance movement. To finish, there was some debate about the organisation of the resistance. Generally the MI5 led movements were much more secret, with "firewalls" to separate the different cells. That made them less ****e to big disasters. On the contrary the French BCRA led movements were, partly on purpose, more open. That was to be more reactive and to let some members having different activities, like liaison and propaganda. The cost in term of loss was partly anticipated and accepted.
That was costly indeed but in the end the job was done and well, that's the most important.



It was only when the Allies have landed that - suddenly - the French Resistance found that they have so many patriotic compatriots.

so what ?



What about the Vichy government? Why did it prove so enthusiastic about assisting the Germans in rounding up Jews and in resisting the Allies?
Could the Vichy government have been so successful if ordinary French men and women had not cooperated? Why did the French not hide the Jews? It was not impossible.

First, contrary to Germany, Spain, Italy, Sweeden, Romania or Bulgaria and others, before the war France was democratic and didn't had a strong fascist or Nazi party.
Petain came like the saviour of the nation and patriots were supposed to follow him blindly. Petain created the Vichy regime. It was antisemit but antisemitism wasn't the core of its policy and deportation were made under Nazi's pressure.
The antisemit laws of Vichy don't mean the French were antisemitic. After all, Leon Blum, the prime minister of the popular front was Jew. As was Jean Zay, Mendel, Mendes France and many others, all elected before the war.
Contrary to what you and your ****ing media say or suggest, the Vichy regime didn't deported the French Jews. There was some attempt but the orders were sabotaged and this even before we knew the death camp existed
Sadly, the Vichy police did indeed participated to the deportation of foreign Jews. but speaking of entousiasm from the population or the police is fvucking insulting. Take the most difficult part first, the Vel d'Hiv. Only foreign Jews were captured. The Germans had ordered 28,000 Jews, they got "only" 12,884, a lot of people had been informed the day before by the police and could hide. The Vel d'Hiv created a big scandal and indignation all over the country. Try Google some names: cardinal Gerlier in Lyon, Mgr Salièges in Toulouse, Mrr Théas at Montauban, Mgr Rémond at Nice, pastor Boegner and many other.
entousiastic ? you're pissing on the grave of those who risked there life to help people that weren't even French at a time the "final solution" just started to be implemented and wasn't known.



So it was possible, and a few brave French men and women were heroically involved in it. But so much more could have been done. If the French had only been like the Danes, 83,000 lives would not have been lost.

Enough of your lectures.
No, there wasn't that many heroic French involved. They just used to turn blind eyes and that's already a lot. In the village where my Grand mother lived, near Lyon, a family of Jews came from Paris and installed on an abandonned house not far from the village. Hell of course everybody and the "Gendarmes" (police of the countryside) knew they were Jews ! there childrens even used to go to school. Just the French didn't asked any question and the family could stay there until the end of the war.

Ah and btw, it's NOT 83,000 lives, it's 76,000, and "only" 25,000 French Jews.



It is ironical that when it comes to protecting the Jews against German genocide, the Italians and the Spainards actually did much better.
Spain lost no Jews to the Holocaust. They refused even to join the war on the German side, despite Hitler's urgings. They turned a blind eye to Jewish refugees that came across their borders.

Italy also refused Hitler's urgings to join the pogrom against the Jews, and refused to discriminate against them. Many of the 8,000 casualties to the Holocaust was a result of German occupation of Italy after the Italian surrender, and the Italians then became ferocious enemies of the Germans, both as regular armed forces and partisans.

And both Spain and Italy were facists!

By comparison, the French cooperation in the Holocaust is almost enthusiastic.
[/quote]

Care to be reliable ? I don't think so.

Spain and Italy hadn't been invaded in case you didn't notice. And antisemitism never was part of fascism. It's typicaly Nazi.

Plus you're wrong:

Country / Pre-War 1939 / After -War 1945 / Survival Rate / Remarks
Italy / 50,000 / 33,000 / 66%
France / 350,000 / 275,000 / 78% / Including foreign refugees
http://www.kimel.net/what.html

And we are counting all the poor Jews, mostly Germans, that refugied in France just before the war. Those suffered the most.
"only" less than 25,000 French Jews were deported and all by the Gestapo, none by the French police. That make a Survival Rate superior 85%.

bad enough, no need to make it worse.

I don't understand this anti French propaganda in the American-anglo world, that use all the most depictable means against France. That makes me sick.
You have a problem here, it's how low you've gone. Worse than the French problem that is your bullsh:t, since the truth always surface in the end.

[ogukuo72]

OK, if these figures are correct, then I am wrong, and I must change my opinions.

My figures came from Wikipedia, which, of course, may well not be accurate.

[ogukuo72]

OK, here's another website with some figures:
http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0tmc/occupied/final.htm

This is a good website that also discusses the Vichy government's complicity in the deportation of Jews.


# in 1940 there were approximately 330, 000 Jews living in France;

# during the period of the Occupation 75,721 Jews were deported;

# around 23,000 of those deported had French nationality - the so-called bons vieux juifs de France - the vast majority were apatrides or stateless Jews;

# around 3,000 Jews died in internment camps on French soil;

# another 1,000 Jews were executed or murdered in France during the Occupation;

# only 2,500 Jews - 3% of those deported - returned from the concentration camps.

# The total number of Jews resident in France during the Occupation who were killed as a result of Nazi policy and French collaboration is estimated at around 75,000- 80,000.

# Nearly 25% of the total Jewish community in France then, died in Hitler's `final solution'.


So, Roland is right. ONLY 25% (75,721) of Jews (330,000) in France were killed. And most of the Jews deported by France were non-French - they were refugees fleeing German persecution and probably expecting protection and help from France.

[stonecutter]

@ogukuo:
I don't understand this anti French propaganda in the American-anglo world, that use all the most depictable means against France. That makes me sick.



Well for one, France is a competitor to America on the world stage. We are "cowards" because we refuse to kowtow to American direction. Psych-ops are an effective means to mobilize your general population against a foe, and Americans are pretty good at this.

I think there's also another, underlying reason. Unlike for many other nations, France has never been a source of economic emmigration to America. The boatloads of poor and disposessed immigrants sailing under the Statue of Liberty didn't include many Frenchmen (we just gave them the Statue). The Americans have a grasp of Italy -- there are millions of Italians in the States. They have a grasp of Poland, of Ireland, of Germany, etc. But apart from a piece of land that Napoleon sold to them over 200 years ago, there's very little French influence in the daily culture of America. As a result, most aspects of France (including her history) are completely unknown to Americans, and what you don't know, you often mistrust or fear (not that that's any excuse in this day and age, when all you have to do is crack open a book).

[roland]

So, Roland is right. ONLY 25% (75,721) of Jews (330,000) in France were killed. And most of the Jews deported by France were non-French

Well ONLY, that's already a lot.
And it''s NOT "most of the Jews deported by France were non-French" it' is rather "most of the Jews deported from France were non-French" since no french Jews were deported by France. See the difference my perfidious friend ?



...- they were refugees fleeing German persecution and probably expecting protection and help from France.

yes very sad. They trusted us to protect them and we didn't deserved there trust. But hell we did our best and had been beaten and invaded :(

[fantassin]

Roland, chapeau de prendre le temps de réfuter ce tombereau de conneries et de mauvaise foi pêché sur Google.

Hats off to you Roland for taking the time and trouble to destroy each and every argument of yet another Google queen who has a problem with France


Good job BTW

[Olybrius]

If the French had only been like the Danes, 83,000 lives would not have been lost.

It is ironical that when it comes to protecting the Jews against German genocide, the Italians and the Spainards actually did much better.

Spain lost no Jews to the Holocaust. They refused even to join the war on the German side, despite Hitler's urgings. They turned a blind eye to Jewish refugees that came across their borders.

Italy also refused Hitler's urgings to join the pogrom against the Jews, and refused to discriminate against them. Many of the 8,000 casualties to the Holocaust was a result of German occupation of Italy after the Italian surrender, and the Italians then became ferocious enemies of the Germans, both as regular armed forces and partisans.

And both Spain and Italy were facists!

By comparison, the French cooperation in the Holocaust is almost enthusiastic.

Stupids comments ... the survival rate of jews in France is among highest.
So with your stupid way of thinking , Poland , Holland and some others would be totally nazi countries ... what i do not think

mmm no more time to lost

[roland]

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/printer_friendly/news_logo.gif
Profile: WWII spy Michel Hollard
The story of wartime French spy Michel Hollard has passed into obscurity in recent years, but his exploits once earned him the title of "the man who saved London".

Born into a middle-class French Protestant family in 1898, he fought for his country in World War I at the tender age of 17.

When the Nazis swept across mainland Europe, Mr Hollard, by now a wealthy businessman, set up his own spy network in 1941, independently of the Allies and other Resistance circles in France.

The Agir network - named after the French word meaning "to act" - consisted of amateurs in strategic locations across France, especially railway workers.

But it was Mr Hollard himself who arguably changed the course of World War II in 1943, when he uncovered preparations to build more than 100 V-1 rocket launchers in northern France, all aimed at London.

If British warplanes had not been able to find and destroy the launch pads, up to 300 flying bombs a day would have rained down on London and southern England.

But the onslaught was largely averted thanks to rough sketches made by Mr Hollard, based on plans which he found in the coat pocket of a German engineer.

Decorated

He smuggled the sketches to the British embassy in Berne in one of 49 return trips across the border that he made in three years, passing on details of Nazi activities to the MI6 intelligence service.

He was caught by the Gestapo in February 1944, tortured and deported to a German concentration camp.

However, the RAF bombed the ship on which he was being transported and he was rescued from the shipwreck by a British vessel.

In the late 1940s, he was given the rank of colonel and awarded both the French Legion d'Honneur and Britain's Distinguished Service Order (DSO) medal.

He died in 1993 at the age of 95, but his reluctance to boast about his achievements and his freelance status outside the main Resistance networks meant that his work had been largely forgotten.

Now, however, a modern-day Anglo-French venture has fittingly revived the memory of a man whom many historians describe as one of the great figures of recent French history.

Story from BBC NEWS:

Published: 2004/04/27 12:51:02 GMT

© BBC MMVI

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/europe/3663005.stm

[ogukuo72]

I've done some more readings this morning. Come to think of it, I shouldn't have been so quick to offer Roland an olive branch. That should teach me not to post when I'm tired. :)

Let's take 75,000 as the figure of Jews from France sent to concentration camps, although there are figures such as 85,000 and 110,000 out there. I'm taking the lowest one to build the most favourable case for France, so don't say I'm not fair. So, using the 300,000 Jews in France figure as baseline, it would seem that 25% died, while 75% survived.

Now, it is estimated that there were 500,000 Jews in GERMANY before the war. Of these, it was estimated that 170,000 - 200,000 German Jews were sent to and died in concentration camps. Let's take the higher figure here - again to build the most favourable case for France. Taking 200,000 of 500,000, it would mean that only 40% of German Jews died, which means that 60% survived.

This, of course, put France in a favourable light, since only 25% of the Jews in the country died as opposed to 40% for Germany.

I think some of you might begin to see a problem here already. Something dodgy is going on here. How is it possible that 60% of German Jews survived when at the end of the war, Jews in Germany were pretty much eradicated?

Like I said, sleep deprivation has clouded by thinking.

The deal is this:

There were 500,000 Jews in Germany before the Nazis came to power. Over the years, as Nazi anti-semitic policies were put in place, more and more of them left. Indeed, it was estimated that more than half of the German Jews fled Germany to other countries. If we take 250,000 as the figure, only 250,000 unfortunate souls remaining in Germany. If 200,000 were sent to concentration camps, then the real survival rate is actually 20%, not 60%.

Now, let's take the case of France. The figure 300,000 Jews in France represents the number of Jews in France BEFORE the German invasion. Does that mean that when the Germans had occupied half of France, the Armstice was signed, and the Vichy government established, there were still 300,000 Jews in France? Highly unlikely!

If say 100,000 fled, leaving 200,000, France is actually responsible for sending 37.5% of the Jews in France to their deaths. If 150,000 fled, leaving 150,000 (same proportion as Germany), then 50% were sent to their deaths. And if 200,000 fled, leaving 100,000, then a whopping 75% died. And of course if there were only 75,000 Jews left in France, then France had helped to wipe out all Jews within its borders.

Did the Jews fled France with the invasion? I would be surprised if they did not. The question becomes, how many? I would indeed be surprised if most of them decided to stay in a German occupied France, and a France ruled by Vichy. Indeed, it is amazing that Jews were smuggled out of France (by brave French men and women such as the villagers of Le Chambon who saved 5,000) into fascist Spain and Italy!

[fantassin]

Yes, of course, and IF my sister had balls, she would be my brother.

I suppose if some countries, like the USA, had not closed their borders to jewish immigration until 1941, more could have emigrated.

[Atlantic Friend]

We need to look more closely at the Das Reich story. The primary reason for the long march was because of Allied interdiction effort and Allied air superiority.

Das Reich was equipped with heavy tanks such as the Panther and the Tiger, and these tanks do not road march as well as the Allied tanks. They were usually transported by rail until close to the front before driving the short distance to combat.

Allied air interdiction and fighter-bomber efforts forced the division to road march, as rails interchanges and lines were knocked out, and trains attacked on the remaining servicable tracks. This caused frequent breakdowns in the tanks. Given the narrow French roads that had to be travelled over and the huge size of the tanks (a Tiger is almost 55 tonnes), a single tank break down often led to long traffic jams down the line.

The French Resistance DID attacked the Das Reich on the march. But with such slender guerilla forces, it is not surprising that attacking a full armoured division proved foolhardy and ultimately ineffectual.

Twist History as much as you obviously want to, Ogukuo, facts remain... The Das Reich didn't massacre Oradour ouf of frustration at Allied air attacks, but out of frustration at partisan attacks.

Of course the Allied mastery or the airspace played a role, but I think it's quite curious the way you systematically choose to take Resistance action out of the picture to replace it by regular Allied army action. The plans of the Atlantic Wall ? Oh, that was nothingm, simple aerial reconnaissance was enough. Informnation about the beaches ? Oh, that was nothing, brave Marines clandestine landings were more than enough. Delaying German units and disruptiung German communications ? Oh, that was nothing, Allied bombers were more than enough.


I must emphasise that I'm not saying that the French Resistance was a bunch of boy scouts running around playing cowboys and indians with the Germans, or that the French Resistance had an easy time in the Provence countryside. These were extraordinarily brave men and women who did contribute much to the Allied war effort. These men and women deserve our respect, no matter what their nationality.

How can you reconcile that with the sytematical playing down of Resistance action will remain a mystery to me.
But what about the rest of France?


What about the other 41,500,000 French men and women, after you've taken out the brave 200,000? What about the other 99.6% of the population?

They were unarmed, remember ? Living under oppression, this kind of thing. Saying "how come they weren't many more volunterring to be killed ?" is easy when you live 60 years away from them.



Would the French Resistance and SOE had had such a hard time if not because of the lack of support from the rest of the population?

Lack of support ? Where do you think the Maquis did find food, for example ? Let me tell you that, without popular support, NO underground movement could have survived in France. If, as you say, the French population had been suppoortive of both Vichy and the Germans, the history of the Resistance and the SOE officers in France would have been a very brief one.


Betrayals by French collaborators of the Resistance was a common theme in the literature mentioned by some of those who posted here. It was only when the Allies have landed that - suddenly - the French Resistance found that they have so many patriotic compatriots.

Betrayal is a common feature of any Resistance / underground movement. And what do you call betrayal, BTW ? Many networks were outed after a member was caught by German troops and tortured by the Gestapo. Do you think you would be cunning enough not to be caught, and brave enough to never talk under torture ? I have visited the museum of the Liberation two weeks ago, and they had a representation of a nifty little device used by the Gestapo, a metal helmets equipped with screws, designed to slowly break your face into pieces. I for one refuse to call a traitor anyone who speaks after such treatment.


What about the Vichy government? Why did it prove so enthusiastic about assisting the Germans in rounding up Jews and in resisting the Allies? Could the Vichy government have been so successful if ordinary French men and women had not cooperated? Why did the French not hide the Jews? It was not impossible.

The Vichy government's authority was limited to southern, non-occupied France, and even this relative autonomy ceased in November 1942 when the Germans occupied the whole country. In northern France the civil administrations was placed under German authorities, and parts of France were literally annexed to Germany.

Was Vichy a puppet government, crammed with indigenous fascists ? Yes, indeed. Did it collaborate with Germany ? Yes, it did, sometimes doing more than the Germans asked for in a desperate attempt to score points with the occupiers. Was Vichy representative of the French poipulation ? No, unless you are ready to defend the thesis that 90% of Frenchmen were Fascists.


The French village of Le Chambon did not turn away any Jews that sought them for help, and hid them and smuggled them out of the country. So it was possible, and a few brave French men and women were heroically involved in it. But so much more could have been done. If the French had only been like the Danes, 83,000 lives would not have been lost.

While it is necessary to mourn every innocent victim of Nazi oppression, I think saying "the people who lived through these times should have done more" is both gratuitous and contemptuous. Denmark was granted self-rule by Nazi Germany, while France was partitioned. Given the fact that 78% of French Jews survived the war, I don't think France has to bow her collective head in shame.


It is ironical that when it comes to protecting the Jews against German genocide, the Italians and the Spainards actually did much better.

No, it's in fact rather normal. Was Spain occupied by Germany ? No. Was Italy occupied by Germany ? No, not until 1943. Both of these regimes were Fascist in nature, not Nazi. Italy adopted its own anti-Jew legislation in 1938 of its own accord, not under German pressure, and so had more leeway in assessing what treatment was to be applied to its Jews. Read "The Fizzi Contini's Garden" to have a chronicle of what being an Italian Jew menat before and after German occupation.


Spain lost no Jews to the Holocaust. They refused even to join the war on the German side, despite Hitler's urgings. They turned a blind eye to Jewish refugees that came across their borders.

Which is easier to do when you're not occupied by the Germans.


Italy also refused Hitler's urgings to join the pogrom against the Jews, and refused to discriminate against them. Many of the 8,000 casualties to the Holocaust was a result of German occupation of Italy after the Italian surrender, and the Italians then became ferocious enemies of the Germans, both as regular armed forces and partisans.

As Free French troops and French partisans were ferocious enemies of the Germans, or are you saying they weren't ?


By comparison, the French cooperation in the Holocaust is almost enthusiastic.

Read more about Fascism. Italian-style Fascism had no racial policy. And, once again, these nations had more independence fropm Germany for either being totally not involved in the war on Germany's side (Spain) or being an independent ally of Nazi Germany (Italy pre-1943).

[roland]

I've done some more readings this morning. Come to think of it, I shouldn't have been so quick to offer Roland an olive branch. That should teach me not to post when I'm tired. :)

Let's take 75,000 as the figure of Jews from France sent to concentration camps, although there are figures such as 85,000 and 110,000 out there. I'm taking the lowest one to build the most favourable case for France, so don't say I'm not fair. So, using the 300,000 Jews in France figure as baseline, it would seem that 25% died, while 75% survived.

Now, it is estimated that there were 500,000 Jews in GERMANY before the war. Of these, it was estimated that 170,000 - 200,000 German Jews were sent to and died in concentration camps. Let's take the higher figure here - again to build the most favourable case for France. Taking 200,000 of 500,000, it would mean that only 40% of German Jews died, which means that 60% survived.

This, of course, put France in a favourable light, since only 25% of the Jews in the country died as opposed to 40% for Germany.

I think some of you might begin to see a problem here already. Something dodgy is going on here. How is it possible that 60% of German Jews survived when at the end of the war, Jews in Germany were pretty much eradicated?

Like I said, sleep deprivation has clouded by thinking.

The deal is this:

There were 500,000 Jews in Germany before the Nazis came to power. Over the years, as Nazi anti-semitic policies were put in place, more and more of them left. Indeed, it was estimated that more than half of the German Jews fled Germany to other countries. If we take 250,000 as the figure, only 250,000 unfortunate souls remaining in Germany. If 200,000 were sent to concentration camps, then the real survival rate is actually 20%, not 60%.

Now, let's take the case of France. The figure 300,000 Jews in France represents the number of Jews in France BEFORE the German invasion. Does that mean that when the Germans had occupied half of France, the Armstice was signed, and the Vichy government established, there were still 300,000 Jews in France? Highly unlikely!

If say 100,000 fled, leaving 200,000, France is actually responsible for sending 37.5% of the Jews in France to their deaths. If 150,000 fled, leaving 150,000 (same proportion as Germany), then 50% were sent to their deaths. And if 200,000 fled, leaving 100,000, then a whopping 75% died. And of course if there were only 75,000 Jews left in France, then France had helped to wipe out all Jews within its borders.

Did the Jews fled France with the invasion? I would be surprised if they did not. The question becomes, how many? I would indeed be surprised if most of them decided to stay in a German occupied France, and a France ruled by Vichy. Indeed, it is amazing that Jews were smuggled out of France (by brave French men and women such as the villagers of Le Chambon who saved 5,000) into fascist Spain and Italy!


Damned how nobody thought of it before ? the Jews families just had to sell there asset, go to the US embassy and have a visa and take a ticket in the transatlantic line to New York.
Or take a take airline ticket to London ?
ogukuo72 you're a genius. After a few Google search you know better than the Jews themselves. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/France.html#Holocaust

More seriously, ogukuo, keep in mind that the antisemit opression of Jews started in 1935 in Germany in time of peace while it started after the invasion in France, in time of war.

[Atlantic Friend]

Let's take 75,000 as the figure of Jews from France sent to concentration camps, although there are figures such as 85,000 and 110,000 out there. I'm taking the lowest one to build the most favourable case for France, so don't say I'm not fair. So, using the 300,000 Jews in France figure as baseline, it would seem that 25% died, while 75% survived.

Yes, it would.


Now, it is estimated that there were 500,000 Jews in GERMANY before the war. Of these, it was estimated that 170,000 - 200,000 German Jews were sent to and died in concentration camps. Let's take the higher figure here - again to build the most favourable case for France. Taking 200,000 of 500,000, it would mean that only 40% of German Jews died, which means that 60% survived.

That is correct.

This, of course, put France in a favourable light, since only 25% of the Jews in the country died as opposed to 40% for Germany.


I think some of you might begin to see a problem here already. Something dodgy is going on here. How is it possible that 60% of German Jews survived when at the end of the war, Jews in Germany were pretty much eradicated?

Nazi Germany first allowed Jewish emigration before the war, while in Occupied countries Jews were forced to stay where they were until German authorities decided it was time to send them to ghettos and, ultimately, camps. Just as you say in next paragraph.



There were 500,000 Jews in Germany before the Nazis came to power. Over the years, as Nazi anti-semitic policies were put in place, more and more of them left. Indeed, it was estimated that more than half of the German Jews fled Germany to other countries. If we take 250,000 as the figure, only 250,000 unfortunate souls remaining in Germany. If 200,000 were sent to concentration camps, then the real survival rate is actually 20%, not 60%.

Seems correct.


Now, let's take the case of France. The figure 300,000 Jews in France represents the number of Jews in France BEFORE the German invasion. Does that mean that when the Germans had occupied half of France, the Armstice was signed, and the Vichy government established, there were still 300,000 Jews in France? Highly unlikely!

Still, it was more or less the case. Remember that German Jews had the opportunity to emigrate for SIX YEARS before WW2, while French Jews found themselves in a nation that got occupied in a matter of six WEEKS. There's no way 100,000 people or 200,000 people could have manages to flee France between May 1940 and July 1940.

Think about it : ports do not operate at full capacity, neutral ships begin to avoid French ports, French ships are requisitioned to carry troops either to or from France's colonial posessionsm, German planes and subs attack French ships. Have you ever seen a map of the wrecks around France ? They form an almost solid belt around the Atlantic and Channel coasts. Half of them are from 1939-1945.


Did the Jews fled France with the invasion? I would be surprised if they did not. The question becomes, how many? I would indeed be surprised if most of them decided to stay in a German occupied France, and a France ruled by Vichy.

Ogukuo, the only window of opportunity for French Jews to flee was basically DURING the 6 weeks of the invasion of France. Some of them did, sure, but it couldn't have been more than a handful of them. As soon as Vichy was established, fleeing was not an option. Vichy was a puppet government, not an independent power such as Italy or Spain.



Indeed, it is amazing that Jews were smuggled out of France (by brave French men and women such as the villagers of Le Chambon who saved 5,000) into fascist Spain and Italy!

It is not, not in the way you mean it.

[roland]

Given the fact that 78% of French Jews survived the war, I don't think France has to bow her collective head in shame.

Correction: Like I've already said to ogukuo, that's 78% of French Jewry that survived, that means all Jews living in France, including foreign one. The survival rate of French Jews is rather around 85%.



No, it's in fact rather normal. Was Spain occupied by Germany ? No. Was Italy occupied by Germany ? No, not until 1943. Both of these regimes were Fascist in nature, not Nazi. Italy adopted its own anti-Jew legislation in 1938 of its own accord, not under German pressure, and so had more leeway in assessing what treatment was to be applied to its Jews. Read "The Fizzi Contini's Garden" to have a chronicle of what being an Italian Jew menat before and after German occupation.

Correction: Like I've already said to ogukuo, even in Italy the survival rate is lower than in France.

Point made well enough about the Jewish opression I think. Anybody of good faith can make his opinion. Those count of survival rate are pretty disgusting. One Jews deported for his religion is already too much. Sorry for those who are chocked but we have to reply to the disgusting anti-french american-anglo propaganda that use the holocost as a political tool against France.