If an American Blackhawk is attacking....

[panzerfaust]

an American ground force in a misidentification of hostiles- do you try to shoot down the chopper or take the casualties- what's the policy.

[Jack Mehoff]

edit

[George W. Bush]

I'm sure there's a FM for that.

[Fioraon]

Get your ass on the ground while the RTO calls off fire support. Choppers dont fly around blind, everyone should have one way or another to contact combatants in their AO either through higher higher or radio feq. Anyone who shoots back is a moron.

[ArmedPacifist]

Get your ass on the ground while the RTO calls off fire support. Choppers dont fly around blind, everyone should have one way or another to contact combatants in their AO either through higher higher or radio feq. Anyone who shoots back is a moron.

I'm sure there are some situations where shooting back could save lives...namely yours.

[Beowulf]

radio, vs-17 panel, smoke, and numerous other things if it's night are ways to identify yourself as friendly. I'll use those before I try to kill some pilot who's got his head in his ass.

-b

[Fioraon]

Get your ass on the ground while the RTO calls off fire support. Choppers dont fly around blind, everyone should have one way or another to contact combatants in their AO either through higher higher or radio feq. Anyone who shoots back is a moron.

I'm sure there are some situations where shooting back could save lives...namely yours.

Lets be realistic here. If you dont have time to call the chopper off then there is no point in cutting it down for you are already dead.

Forgetting reality. Then say you engage the chopper, you think the chopper has much choice to pull off now? Now you've got a pile of bodies, or a crashed chopper full of bodies maybe even on top of other bodies or someones home. Or All the above.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

If you get arc'ed up by a helo then the worst thing you could do is engage. Has the helo got a wingman?, if so is it a troop carrier or gunbird?.
Maybe the helo pilot on receiving small arms fire stands off and calls for indirect fire on your position.

Compounding a mistake by opening fire on your own side is stupidity. Not reality.

[panzerfaust]

The reason I ask is I watched a show on PBS (Frontline) on the war in Iraq. When the Americans advanced into Nassiriya crossing the north bridge there was this attack on American troops from an A-10 Warthog (sorry when I posted the original question I thought they had said a Apache but going back and veiwing the tape I made it was an A-10) - anyone know any more details about this incident? would the reaction of ground forces be the same as to a chopper? I just thought this was a real tradgedy- a no win situation for all around but what would you do in that situation- I'd imagine you'de just have to hunker down and take it hopin for the best.

[Kingpin]

radio, vs-17 panel, smoke, and numerous other things if it's night are ways to identify yourself as friendly. I'll use those before I try to kill some pilot who's got his head in his ass.

-b

In Chechnya was couple of cases when radio, smoke and other things didn't help. Remember what A-10 did with brits.

[James]

The reason I ask is I watched a show on PBS (Frontline) on the war in Iraq. When the Americans advanced into Nassiriya crossing the north bridge there was this attack on American troops from an A-10 Warthog (sorry when I postd the original question I thought they had said a Apache but going back and veiwing the tape I made it was an A-10) - anyone know any more details about this incident?

There is a written account of this in the book "The March Up." Refer to Fioran's and Beowulf's comments. That is what to do.

The A-10 came in, strafed some Marine positions, and was gone. I don't think any Marines were killed by the A-10.

Mooch? Can you add any insight to this incident?

[panzerfaust]

I don't think any Marines were killed by the A-10.

The commentator says that the A10 added to the casualties.- Then the wounded were all killed when a RPG round went into the vehicle taking them to the rear.- Made me feel quite sad.

[cold0]

Sometimes shooting back can been an option...

During Iraqi Freedom an F-16 CG (dedicated SEAD model) was engaged by a Patriot battery in automatic mode (the crew had left the battery 'cause was under attack by enemy artillery).

The pilot, knowing that the Patriot (or, more problably, that a hostile radar) has locked him, shooted a HARM against the Patriot's radar, damaging it. No one was hurt.

I'm no sure the F-16's RWR had cleary identified the radar emission as a Patriot but in the end the pilot made the right thing (the Patriot have killed a Navy and 2 Brit pilots in 2 other friendly fire accidents).

For who has a interest in eletronic warfare, it's interesting to note that RWR was capable to detect the emission of the phase array radar even it not "uploaded" against this specific threat.

[NcDeuce]

Dude has been watching too much Hamburger Hill.

Friendly fire is always a factor in combat AND training.

This reminds me of that one incident in the first Gulf War when the jet shot down a Black Hawk...I don't really remember the specifics though. :|

[Tane Angle]

b and friends hit the nail on the head. Besides, A-10s are dang hard to bring down, and unless one has a stockpile of missiles laying around, there isn't much one can do. Raising a white flag might help. I would say do as many of the methods for communicating "Don't shoot you idiot, we're Americans!" as possible. Redunancy could be lifesaving there.

NcDeuce, that's good to hear that you guys are training for such contingencies. It was not always so. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[memphiz]

correct me if im wrong. but didnt an Apache start shooting its guns at 2 Canadian snipers in Afghanistan, and stopped shooting when the soldiers rolled over and the pilot relized they were Canadian? i know i read that somewhere i just dont know where..

[TALOS]

well, there is of course the infamous f16 incident in which 4 canadians at an authorized range were killed when the pilot dropped a bomb.
Mind you firing back would have made the second pilot engage more agressively.
It was sad and devastating to the families but in war with fatigue and uppers to keep the pilots goin you will have errors.

[GazB]

For who has a interest in eletronic warfare, it's interesting to note that RWR was capable to detect the emission of the phase array radar even it not "uploaded" against this specific threat.

A RWR wouldn't be much good if it couldn't detect a beam of energy more powerful than a microwave oven on full painting the aircraft.


This reminds me of that one incident in the first Gulf War when the jet shot down a Black Hawk...I don't really remember the specifics though.

That was two F-15s and Two Blackhawks from memory... the two choppers full of important officials. The F-15 pilot tried to ID the choppers at too high a speed and from too far away. From memory the Helos forgot to change to the right Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) Frequency as it entered a new area. The guy a few hundred kms away in an AWACs got fired for it. Fortunately some good did come out of it as they revised their identification procedures... looking from 4km and 600km/h at two helos in close formation isn't an ideal method.

[admar2]

Sometimes shooting back can been an option...



For who has a interest in eletronic warfare, it's interesting to note that RWR was capable to detect the emission of the phase array radar even it not "uploaded" against this specific threat.


as has been said previously in this post, shooting back makes absolutely no sense at all. the helo in question could stand off and call in indirect fire on you, and then ya stand no chance at all.


and how exactly do YOU know which threats the RWR system was uploaded with? even if the RWR system wasn't loaded for that specific threat, its damn sure gonna notice being painted by that big ass radar.

[Scrim]

When I was sent to Stinger Gunner school. We were taught you could absolutely engage a friendly aircraft, if it was in self defense of yourself or the unit we were attatched to. So if you happen to have a Stinger lying around, shooting back may make sense.

[NcDeuce]

If you smoked a lot of pot. rofl

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

When I was sent to Stinger Gunner school. We were taught you could absolutely engage a friendly aircraft, if it was in self defense of yourself or the unit we were attatched to. So if you happen to have a Stinger lying around, shooting back may make sense.

No way in hell I'd shoot back, if anything I'd pop smoke, find cover, get to a radio and let the pilot know he's trying to frag me. If all else fails I'd play "dead" and not move, hoping that they would think they've killed everyone. If he's still engaging after that...start praying because theres no better time to get into gods good books.

Theres plenty of things that you can do, sure I'd be pissed off if one of my own army starts bombing me, but I'm more intelligent then to shoot back at the guy. Shooting back means theres people still alive on the ground, most likely you shoot a stinger at him he's going to call in for some more support or artillery...hell who knows you could possibly end up on the wrong end of a tanks barrel. Which wouldnt be exactly the most favorable position on the battlefield.

[cold0]

and how exactly do YOU know which threats the RWR system was uploaded with? even if the RWR system wasn't loaded for that specific threat, its damn sure gonna notice being painted by that big ass radar.

As, I have said, I dont' know if the F-16CJ RWR was uploaded with the radar emission of the phase array radar of the Patriot. Generally the RWRs are programmed only with the enemy EW order of battle obtained with SIGINT missions or with other methods but not with "friendly" radar emissions. An advanced RWR can "pick" and classified even non- programmed emission but I was surprised that the F-16CJ RWR was able to "pick" the Patriot emissions that, as all phase array radars, are difficult to "pick".

Just for make a example, during the '90, the Iraqi replaced the old soviet SA-2 radar SPOON REST with a french radar ( a monopulse Doppler tracking radar, if I remind exactly). The USAF/US NAVY could not identify the emissions of the "new" iraqi system (later called TIGER SONG), so, during the first engagemnts they have to evade the incoming missiles without any warning of their RWRs

[cold0]

A RWR wouldn't be much good if it couldn't detect a beam of energy more powerful than a microwave oven on full painting the aircraft.

Not necessary. A phase array radar doesn't radiate much energy in a "sector" of sky like the old radars. For some aspect a phase array radar works like a multifaced bug eye; the radiating elements are fed from a radar transmitter through phase-shifting networks or "phasers." So, it's possibile to use the differentent phasers to send "pencil-like" emissions in specific sectors of the skies and an RWR must detect and classified a series of lower radar emissions than aganist a monopulse radar.
Just remember that RWR are programmed to identify a specific set of radar emissions and not all emissions "in the skies".
During the Tornado engagement, the wingman pilot of the shooted aircraft said that he didn't received any warnings of the incoming missile (so, no even the emissions of tracking radar), until he see visually the missile.

[SABER 2-3]

Hopefully your OPORD was very detailed and included a blue on blue contingency plan.

[Mechanical Ambush]

jesus christ! POP YELLOW SMOKE!!! :bash:

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

jesus christ! POP YELLOW SMOKE!!! :bash:

Im a civillian and thats the first thing I would do, I'm sure any color would do (maybe a blue smoke if there is such a thing to represent a "blue on blue").

Worst thing to do is fire back...

[WARPIG]

One detail. If you are being engaged by a "blackhawk" your probably mistaken in the first place. Blackhawks are typically troop transports of various config. Not that they cannot be armed but most of the engagements are at the hands of a doorgunner covering an LZ. Likely you meant some kind of Apache or other close air support.
No matter.. I think the consensus is to never fire back. I think most would be too busy trying to run like hell, signal or jumping into some cover.