what exactly is the role of an apache gunship these days?

[martinexsquaddie]

plus ponts all weather day night
lots of firepower
manoverable

minus
slow
vulnerable

so what exactly is its role now the tank armys have gone?
daylight deep strike its an expensive way to commit sucide
thats what fast jets are for

[Trigger]

plus - provides interesting video for forums

plus - gives martinexsquaddie something to write about

minus - makes for terrible Nicolas Cage movies

:D

[scm77]

How about the fact they can **** up people miles away who don't even see it comming? Apache's are awesome. woot

[NcDeuce]

Conventional Army's eyes & ears in the air...you need firepower, call these guys.

BTW, the Apache and Longbow are quite fast.

[Chris196]

Kill people
Break things

repeat as necessary

[marktigger]

according to British politicians it will replace the MBT(in their dreams)

[oldsoak]

Dont know why they think like this - probably one gin too many in that subsidised bar of theirs.

[Merik]

I will say this one good thing about the Apache, I sure as hell would not want to be on the recieving end of one because when it works it works very well.

But nowadays its not flying directly for CAS and it hasnt since its conception, just tank killing.

[NcDeuce]

Speaking of Apaches, a column of about 20 flew over while I was eating out in the backyard. First time I've seen them since before the war in Iraq. They were flying NW to the base from the SE...could they possibly be arriving from the naval shipyards down in FL?


But nowadays its not flying directly for CAS

Edit: They are in Afghanistan!

[duck]

As long as the North Korean dictatorship continues it's pitiful existence the Apache has a job to do defending Seoul and the whole of South Korea from the massed PRK armor.

[Apogee]

BTW, the Apache and Longbow are quite fast.

Not as fast as the ol' CH-47 though

[mustamato]

They are good to kill political opponents. Just ask the Israelis. They know.
Maybe something that can be used in he American election campaign?

[S'13]

They are good to kill political opponents. Just ask the Israelis. They know.
Maybe something that can be used in he American election campaign?

Political opponents?! :cantbeli:

Sane people call them terrorists. :roll:

BTW, it was so obvious that you would come in here and start writing BS like this...

[M_S]

What he said was not BS

[S'13]

What he said was not BS

rofl

You really convinced me with your post.

[M_S]

Thank you..i seem to have that affect of people! ;)

[S'13]

Thank you..i seem to have that affect of people! ;)

Are you by any chance a spokesperson? p-)

Sarcasm aside, the people the IDF targets are people who are involved with terrorism. So it's not really reasonable calling them "political opponents", I hope you can gree with me on that.

[HELEX]

Thats no Bull****.... :roll:

[S'13]

Well if any of those who belive the IDF targets "political opponents" could bring examples of this I would be more than happy to reconsider my openion on this subject.
So far all the people the IDF has targeted have been involved with terrorism. No one here has brought evidence to prove this as wrong and support mustamato's claim.

Examples of personalities involved with terrorism and targeted by the IDF:

-Khader Houssre: A leading field commander in central Gaza, had fired mortar shells and homemade Qassam rockets at Israeli towns and Jewish settlements and was preparing to fire more rockets when he was killed.

-Tito Massoud: Involved in the production and firing of Kassam rockets.

-Mahmoud Zatma: Explosives maker for suicide attacks carried out by the Islamic Jihad terrorist group, was also planning a series of powerful
bomb attacks from the sea and at border crossings.

I don't see how calling these people political opponents is not BS, anyway I have made my point clear and I am done with this topic, that is unless someone actually brings a real explanation to why I might be wrong.

;)

[El'Potato]

-Khader Houssre: A leading field commander in central Gaza, had fired mortar shells and homemade Qassam rockets at Israeli towns and Jewish settlements and was preparing to fire more rockets when he was killed.

-Tito Massoud: Involved in the production and firing of Kassam rockets.



I see, so every army which uses artillery on urban settlements can be labeled (spelling?) as a terrorist organisation?

Now I think we can put some Israelis in that category too then. Because last I checked there have been raids with attackhelos and jets on Palestinian populaces (spelling?) and with your sense of logic those will get classified as terrorist acts... p-)

[AirZone]

-Khader Houssre: A leading field commander in central Gaza, had fired mortar shells and homemade Qassam rockets at Israeli towns and Jewish settlements and was preparing to fire more rockets when he was killed.

-Tito Massoud: Involved in the production and firing of Kassam rockets.



I see, so every army which uses artillery on urban settlements can be labeled (spelling?) as a terrorist organisation?

Now I think we can put some Israelis in that category too then. Because last I checked there have been raids with attackhelos and jets on Palestinian populaces (spelling?) and with your sense of logic those will get classified as terrorist acts... p-)

dude.. no offence but you sound like a child

for the love of god.. if IDF wants they can bomb the **** outta palastines city so it will left only dust

but what they are trying it to do a medicore operations in one of the most tight places in the world

[S'13]

I see, so every army which uses artillery on urban settlements can be labeled (spelling?) as a terrorist organisation?

Well these groups aren't shelling settlements in order to hit military targets or combatants but in order to hit civilians, that is what makes them terrorist groups. It's kind of saddening that I have to explain to you what's the definition of a terrorist. :(


Now I think we can put some Israelis in that category too then. Because last I checked there have been raids with attackhelos and jets on Palestinian populaces (spelling?) and with your sense of logic those will get classified as terrorist acts...

No, because you see, in these raids we try to hit specific targets which are terrorists, however as I explained above the terrorists are deliberately targeting civilians.

[Backis]

Well these groups aren't shelling settlements in order to hit military targets or combatants but in order to hit civilians, that is what makes them terrorist groups. It's kind of saddening that I have to explain to you what's the definition of a terrorist. :(


Actually, those "settlers" are armed and squatting on occupied territory... tell me where else an armed invader in a warzone is called a "civilian"? Illegal combatant more like...

The tragedy is that the Israeli arseholes bring their kids, and the Palestinian arseholes attack them too... :x

[S'13]

Well these groups aren't shelling settlements in order to hit military targets or combatants but in order to hit civilians, that is what makes them terrorist groups. It's kind of saddening that I have to explain to you what's the definition of a terrorist. :(


Actually, those "settlers" are armed and squatting on occupied territory... tell me where else an armed invader in a warzone is called a "civilian"? Illegal combatant more like...

The tragedy is that the Israeli arseholes bring their kids, and the Palestinian arseholes attack them too... :x

interesting, so how do you explain the fact that the cities of Sederot and Ashqelon are been targeted? :roll:
If you ask the terrorists they will tell you that every city and village in Israel is an "illegal settlement" and the people living in that settlement are targets even Tel-Aviv.

[El'Potato]

So I'm being childish? Now that's outright funny!

If someone judges people of being terrorist because of producing rockets and then shooting them on THEIR ENEMY well then I can say what ever I like to!

The problem is defing a terrorist! The Palestinians views themselves as a geurilla army, so they use geurilla tactics. That is indeed of using light artillery support in form of longdistance rocket and mortar attacks.

They do this for the very same reason every other army in the world does. Softening up resistance, giving a wake up call to let you know they're there, affraid of wasting lives in a direct assault etc. etc.
I believe they're doing it because of my last example. They _can't_ go an eye for an eye with the IDF, because they'd get slaughtered.
They're not stupid, they know their options and act accordingly.

Of course I find it bloody stupid and immoral, bad, amazingly and stunningly horrible that someone puts his ass on a bus with some 5kg C4 tied to the chest. I am in no way defending the suicide bombers as that is the wrong method to fight for a cause if you're not targetting military objectives which they stopped doing a while ago, sadly.

The thing is that you cannot call geurilla fighters whom bombard with light artillery as terrorist. That is so wrong, because then every army in this wide world could be labelled as terrorist!



I can only guess that this comes from lack of perspective from you guys. But what do I know, this spiral of death which is going on in Israel might narrow someones views and perspective...

anyhow, this was about choppers, right?

[Backis]

interesting, so how do you explain the fact that the cities of Sederot and Ashqelon are been targeted? :roll:

Do I have to? I was specific of what instances I was talking about, and now you try to change the subject...

Thats called intellectual dishonesty.



If you ask the terrorists they will tell you that every city and village in Israel is an "illegal settlement" and the people living in that settlement are targets even Tel-Aviv.

What relevance is your claim of what "terrorists" may or may not say in any way relevant to my statement?

Strawman.

[S'13]

If someone judges people of being terrorist because of producing rockets and then shooting them on THEIR ENEMY well then I can say what ever I like to!

Now whose having a problem with his sense of logic. :roll:
When you attack your enemy you attack your enemies military and combatants not civilians, if you do so you are a terrorist. I hope you can understand this.



The problem is defing a terrorist! The Palestinians views themselves as a geurilla army, so they use geurilla tactics. That is indeed of using light artillery support in form of longdistance rocket and mortar attacks.

I see I have explain to you the definition of guerilla warfare as well.
guerilla warfare is when small, mobile and flexible combat groups attack a much bigger a stronger military force, I hope you understand why I placed an emphasis on the word military.
Terrorist attack civilians. If the the Palestinians had used rockets and mortars in order to attack military bases, it would have been correct to call them a guerilla force, but guess what, they are using rockets in order to attack cities (I hope you understand that civilians live in these cities).


I believe they're doing it because of my last example. They _can't_ go an eye for an eye with the IDF, because they'd get slaughtered.
They're not stupid, they know their options and act accordingly.

You belive so? Well I must inform you that the Palestinians have already engaged military targets and have also gained success, so don't tell me they don't have any options, however it is much easier attcking civilians and using terrorism so they prefer using that option.


I am in no way defending the suicide bombers as that is the wrong method to fight for a cause if you're not targetting military objectives which they stopped doing a while ago, sadly.

They never stoped however they never stoped attcking civilians neither.





The thing is that you cannot call geurilla fighters whom bombard with light artillery as terrorist.

I can because they are using this artillery in order to attack civilians.



anyhow, this was about choppers, right?

Yes, untill someone decided to talk about the IDF policy of targeting terrorist and called those terrorists "political opponents". :roll:

[S'13]

Do I have to? I was specific of what instances I was talking about, and now you try to change the subject...

Thats called intellectual dishonesty.

So your just talking about terrorist attcking settlement beyond the Green Line. However in my post which you responded to I was talking of the use of rockets and mortars against civilians as a whole (in the Green line and beyond the Green Line). What you did was selective judgment, so I think your the one who should stick to the subject.


What relevance is your claim of what "terrorists" may or may not say in any way relevant to my statement?


From what I understand you see settlements beyond the Green Line as legitimate targets, to the terrorists every settlement is a legitimate targets so your stance on the issue has no real basis and connection to what's happening, we are talking about the terrorist use of rockets so it's only logical to see what they comprehend as legitimate targets for their attacks.

[Backis]

So your just talking about terrorist attcking settlement beyond the Green Line. However in my post which you responded to I was talking of the use of rockets and mortars against civilians as a whole (in the Green line and beyond the Green Line). What you did was selective judgment, so I think your the one who should stick to the subject.

Not selective "judgement"... I haven't made any judgement at all, I commented on part of your statement.

You said;

Well these groups aren't shelling settlements in order to hit military targets or combatants but in order to hit civilians, that is what makes them terrorist groups.

I guess you use the term "settlement" as the definition of all types of built-up areas... wich is way to broad if thats the case. The term settlement is, in this issue, usually referring to what I was commenting on (and clearly understandable in my post, making me wonder if this is mere backtracking on your part...).

I can't take responsibility for your sloppy use of terms.



From what I understand you see settlements beyond the Green Line as legitimate targets, to the terrorists every settlement is a legitimate targets so your stance on the issue has no real basis and connection to what's happening, we are talking about the terrorist use of rockets so it's only logical to see what they comprehend as legitimate targets for their attacks.

I have not made any claim to comment on anything but this small issue (defined by palestinian attacks on illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinian land as defined by UN resolutions). You trying to presume I did is, again, intellectually dishonest.

My view about the "settlers" on occupied territory is that they are putting themselves (and their children) in harms way voluntarily, not that dissimilar from martyring themselves. They are often pretty extreme in their religious views, well armed (and protected by the IDF), and not strangers to commit their own little "atrocities" now and then...

The only people in those settlements I feel sorry about are the children put in harms way by their parents.

I would suggest you get out of that bunker-mentality you seem to have a bad case of...

And the issue at hand in this thread is the contemporary role of the Apache, so we are both way of topic if you have missed that...

[El'Potato]

Oh my S'13 now really. So the USAF, RAF at the moment will and can be labeled as terrorist for targetting civilian German cities?

Will we call the long distance artillery in chechnya used by the Russians for "well equipped and trained terrorist"? :roll:

But don't think that I don't understand your viewpoint because I do, the issue is that I somehow on every level _disagree_ with your ease and mentality to stamp everything and everyone as a terrorist, because that is from your standpoint! In _your_ eyes they are terrorists!
In my eyes they are desperate freedom fighters running out of resources!

And btw. you said they were succesfull in _battles_ against the IDF, now come on! No Palestinean movement could ever dream of going in on a full scale battle against the IDF! They are almost disheartingly disorganized and could never dream of even forming an independent infantry battalion, let alone going on a full scale war with even the least platoon from IDF.



Anyways, as I said, you have your stand/viewpoint and I mine. What ever we say to each other won't have any slightest difference or hopes of changing each others believes or opinions. So I guess I'm trying to say I quit right here and now and stop hijacking this thread any further. :|

[IDFM203]

Well sidestepping the issue of legality, or UN bias (where most resolutions were written by Israel’s enemies the Arabs or by their supporters the soviets) or of winning land in defensive wars or of the Khartoum conference right after that war etc etc….( If you do a search on this site or even search of my posts, especially from the beginning, You will see that I have gone over this before in long and painstaking detail)….

I just want to address this point here.




They are often pretty extreme in their religious views, well armed (and protected by the IDF), and not strangers to commit their own little "atrocities" now and then... ... Here are the facts.

There are around 150,000 to 200,000 settlers.

While yes a large percentage is religious (and out of that you have a percentage that are ultra orthodox or extreme religious) there is also a percentage that is not religious at all.

That’s first of all.

Secondly most of the settlers are not heavily armed!!

Yes some settlers in very dangerous settlements (near hostile Palestinian populations) have weapons but it is mostly small arms weapons for personal protection.

For settlers in settlements that are not that dangerous (and that are a lot of them) most don’t have any weapons and if they do its usually only a handgun.

Now as for atrocities. So again out of 150 to 200 thousand settlers all you had was Burach Goldstein and a few other smaller incidents of anyone killing anyone. ( I can count the number on my finger the amount of times any settler has killed anyone)

Atrocities as you put it are very very rare (and yes they are strangers to it) and it is only carried out by a handful of settlers.

If you want to talk about intellectual honesty well you yourself should follow your own advice and not try to mistakenly represent a whole segment of Israeli society of what is mostly a peaceful segment (though adapt to defending themselves) as the way you did.

Remember you can still believe that they are wrong to be there (which is a debate unto itself), but the way you portrayed all of them is inaccurate. Period!!


Anyways I don’t even know how settlements ever came into this discussion, I mean a clear majority of Palestinian terrorist attacks are targeted on Israeli cities inside of the green line.

I mean if it was only about the 1967 borders (which it is clear that its not) then their targeting should have reflected that.

As for the apache helicopter. They are used because they are accurate weapons systems and are better then sending in an infantry battalion to go after the murderous terrorists that mostly target civilians. (they are used when the target is hard to get by SF means)

Say what you want, most of the apache attacks are targeted killings of Palestinians that had innocent civilian blood on their hands. That is a lot different then those Palestinians that deliberately target civilians.

Also yes unfortunately a few times, an innocent bystander is killed as well (a lot of times placed there on purpose for world sympathy) and its unfortunate, but they weren’t targeted (and lot of times missions are aborted if they see them) and they are certainly regretted by most Israelis, again in stark contrast to Palestinians that celebrate with joy the killings of Israeli civilian man, women and children.


To El'Potato, we call them terrorists for even if they are mere freedom fighters as you put it (who could have gotten the 1967 borders through negotiations if that was merely their goal) the fact is that they mostly target civilians and that is terrorism. Period!!

There is no way to justify the targeting of civilians. Period.

P.S. long time since we have spoken

Shalom to you :D

[El'Potato]

Yes m203, it was waaaay to long since last time! Shalom to you as well! :D

And of course you can call them terrorists, that's what different opinions are there for. If everyone would feel the same then there wouldn't be any freedom fighters/oppressors and oppressors/freedom fighters. Which of course would be a good thing, but it's not anywhere close to happening :|

But all I'm saying is, that everyone has to use dirty methods to achive their goals. Without crushing the Germans industry with airbombardment in the 2nd world war the Germans could have produced perhaps 2 to 5 times more tanks and thus securing their victory since their tanks were so much superior on most, but not all, levels.

The same with the Palestinian geurillas (can we at least agree on calling them that? :) since they are indeed irregular troops. ), they can defeat the IDF so in their naive minds they do believe that using terrortactics (proved to work many times over and over, only exception being massive airstrikes during ww2) could finally crush or bring the IDF to their knees.

Btw, how are you now m203? Long time since I even saw a post from you :| What you're upto these days?

[IDFM203]

And of course you can call them terrorists, that's what different opinions are there for. Understand clearly that I only call people that target civilians terrorists.

If that description doesn’t fall under your category well…….. :roll:




But all I'm saying is, that everyone has to use dirty methods to achive their goals. well firstly you have to define their goals, if its just the 1967 borders and not the whole Israel (as I believe) then they didn’t have to do any of this. They could have gotten it in the Oslo years whem Israel pulled out of every Palestinian town and city and they had full autonomy of their own lives and then barak offered to pull out of much much more, but even in those years homicide bombings on Israeli civilians was happening and after the barak offer, they didn’t even return for negotiations but rather started this whole war (where they mostly target civilians)

You see arguing about oppressors (which we are not and certinly not in the Oslo years), freedom fighters, even terrorists is all falling for the trees and missing the whole forest so to speak.

The bigger picture is that in the Palestinian society (and in the Arab world in general), there is a large segment (not all) that is fighting for the whole Israel and nothing Israel does or doesn’t do will change that.

If it were just about the 1967 borders, the conflict would have ended a while ago.

What’s clear is that its not and its about the whole Israel.



The same with the Palestinian geurillas (can we at least agree on calling them that? :) since they are indeed irregular troops. ), No I will call a Palestinian a guerilla fighter when he only targets the IDF or military instillations, however when they target civilians, they are terrorists and most of their attacks are indeed against civilians. As such my correct labeling of them as terrorists.


they can defeat the IDF so in their naive minds they do believe that using terrortactics (proved to work many times over and over, only exception being massive airstrikes during ww2) could finally crush or bring the IDF to their knees. Listen any type of people can justify anything. I mean there are africkan tribes that belive and justify in canablism as thier religious right.

Whether what the Palestinians do that works or not is moot point for whats clear is its still not justified and certainly not supposed to be justified by a “enlightened” euro such as yourself.

The targeting of civilians is terrorism and it is never justified. Period!!




Btw, how are you now m203? Long time since I even saw a post from you :| What you're upto these days? I am doing great.

As for what I am up to all I am going to say is that I am quite busy these days (besides my postings here ;) ) (I am hesitient to give out persoanl info on the net)

I can respect our conversations, for although we see things differently (and for me I experienced and saw first hand a lot of what I talk about) nonetheless I remember you are respectful and will at least listen to the other viewpoint and not just regurgitate redicules and false one liners that you have read in your media.

Shalom :D

[S'13]

guess you use the term "settlement" as the definition of all types of built-up areas... wich is way to broad if thats the case. The term settlement is, in this issue, usually referring to what I was commenting on (and clearly understandable in my post, making me wonder if this is mere backtracking on your part...).

I can't take responsibility for your sloppy use of terms.

I'm sorry if I confused you, next time I will be more specific, however I hope you were aware of the fact that terrorists shelled both settlements in and beyond the Green Line.
Anyway I don't want to get into a debate about the use of a term.


They are often pretty extreme in their religious views, well armed (and protected by the IDF), and not strangers to commit their own little "atrocities" now and then...


Well I just wonder if you know any settlers that you make such generalizations, the majority of them are peaceful people.


I would suggest you get out of that bunker-mentality you seem to have a bad case of...


I could say that about you and much more but I don't wish to take this debate on to a personal side.

Anyway I don't belive Israeli settlements should be beyobd the Green Line (as do most Israelis) but as we all know the terrorist don't really make differentiation on this matter when they carry out attcks.

[S'13]

IDFM203 has done a great job,as usual ;)
However I have one thing to to add.


And btw. you said they were succesfull in _battles_ against the IDF, now come on!

Not actual battles but the targeting of military targets, for example: roadside bombs used against tanks and which had a lot of success, or the infiltration of military facilities.

[El'Potato]

Well m203, the thing about defining people as terrorist... I personally believe that happens well to easy. Everyone using unconventionall warfare at anyone can get that stamp with out really getting the meaning to it.

Now I'm not saying that these Palestinian "wannabe warriors" (Now THAT must be something we can call them and agreeing on, right? ;) ) are the good guys sent from heaven to bless the world, on the contrary I hate their deeds! I can't see how they want to justify their cause with some billion gallons of innocent peoples blood. That's just a no-go in my world, I feel ashamed that there excist human beings like them.

But the thing with all this, is that Israel use some questionable tactics themselves, and you are the good guys in this, right?
I'm reacting on all out assault on territory not belonging to Israel and whilst doing such killing innocent civilians (if it was on purpose or not I could care less about, and I guess the dead ones too... If you invade or bomb urban settlements the chances of NOT having civilian casualties are null/nill/zero/none/noll/what ever.


m203, you asked me about their goals. Well, I can't answer them for you, because all the different organisations seems to me like they're wanting something different all of them, except eradicating all jews of course so really, I don't know... I just know they use some dirty tactics like suicide bombings to achive them (unlikely, but in their little dream world it can work :| ), just like the IDF is using not dirty perhaps, but risky methods like levelling houses, precision bombing in urban areas etc.

And I think you hit the heads on the nail when you said that anyone can justify for anything. And that's where I'm going at, Israel justifies their attacks on urban populace as a war against terrorism, when the Palestinians justifies their bombings in the same enviroment for getting rid of the evil oppressors.

It's all about your perspective. Since I'm not affected personally by the Israel-Palestine conflict I will understand the anger and hatred from the Israelic (correct plural?) people as I understand the Palestinians equally.
And I will get disgusted equally by the methods used.

None is a saint, and I'm afraid that the Israel-Palestine conflict is about as unsolvable as living in a radiated enviroment :|



Of course I respect you as well! Discussing is all about expressing and/or exchanging opinions, and since we disagree at most things ;) and can keep it civil as well, I see not one reason not to discussing p-)

Shalom :D

To S'13: So you believe the Palestinians can defeat the IDF with roadside bombs? How many tanks have they blown up now? I think it's about 2, and how many does IDF got?...

They CAN'T defeat the IDF and that's where I'm getting at, thus they use these sad methods of irregular warfare!

[IDFM203]

Well firstly my name is IDFM203 ;)


Well m203, the thing about defining people as terrorist... I personally believe that happens well to easy. Everyone using unconventionall warfare at anyone can get that stamp with out really getting the meaning to it. No not at anyone. Unconventional warfare in general does not necessarily make one a terrorist.

Targeting civilian’s makes one a terrorist. Period!! It’s as straightforward as that!!

I see you keep on trying to rationalize their targeting of civilians as to fit into your skewed view on this conflict, to me its incomprehensible and is never justified, in fact what you (not you only) are trying to do in my opinion is part of the problem (but that is a whole other debate as well)

In my opinion, the intentional targeting of civilians is terrorism, period!! Now if you disagree with that straightforward description, then I guess we will never see things eye to eye….oh well :roll:


Now I'm not saying that these Palestinian "wannabe warriors" (Now THAT must be something we can call them and agreeing on, right? ;) )

Again in plain English, Wannabe warrior, guerrilla fighter, etc etc… whatever, all that is only when they are fighting and targeting only against military personal or military instillations, however, when they purposely target civilians (as most of them have mostly done at most times) they are terrorists….its as simple as that.



But the thing with all this, is that Israel use some questionable tactics themselves, and you are the good guys in this, right? ok for the most part Israel only targets terrorists (as I defined them before) or people that have been shooting at soldiers, Israeli towns etc…. there is no (never!!) intentional targeting of civilians by the IDF (of course mistakes happen and they are regrettable but they are for the most part mistakes and not celebrated in Israeli society as the deaths of civilians are openly celebrated in Palestinian society)


I'm reacting on all out assault on territory not belonging to Israel You see now is the bigger debate.

I guess to you can ignore a defensive war and subsequent capture of that land in that war and then the Khartoum conference (where the Arabs had their famous three no’s) and there after of the Arabs in general (and after 1967 the Arabs in the west bank and Gaza being suddenly called Palestinians) refusing to even negotiate with Israel till ten years ago (and spare me the few Arab leaders over the years and their deceiving rhetoric of peace to appease the gullible west…it never represented their true feelings nor the will of the masses of their people).

If gaining the land in a defensive war means its not our land, well I guess almost every nation in the world will have to give up large chunks of its land (like the U.S. giving up California and Texas to Mexico, European nations giving up land that they captured to other powers that were etc…)

But notwithstanding claims of ownership (and the whole debate about that), Israel and most Israelis were in fact willing to give it up, again during the Oslo years, Israel pulled out of every single Palestinian town and city and they had full autonomy of their own lives and then Barak offered to pull out of much much more, but even in those years homecide bombings on Israeli civilians was happening and after the barak offer, they didn’t even return for negotiations but rather started this whole war (where they mostly target civilians).

Israel is always willing to give up land for a true peace (like it did when it gave up land to Jordan and to Egypt….though those aren’t true peace either but at least Israel thought it was….anyways that’s a whole other discussion), but it is not willing to be suicidal (which giving it up really is now as has been shown, for they are really fighting for the whole Israel)



and whilst doing such killing innocent civilians (if it was on purpose or not I could care less about, and I guess the dead ones too... If you invade or bomb urban settlements the chances of NOT having civilian casualties are null/nill/zero/none/noll/what ever. First of all there is a big difference in targeting terrorists and innocents accidently being killed and what the Palestinians do (where they mostly target civilians)

Secondly till any negotiated and peaceful settlement, there is no Israel invaded their land.

Thirdly, its not like Israel decided for the hell of it to send back in its troops.

Ask yourself honestly why Israel went back in the first place.

The intifada (or as I call it the Oslo war) started over four years ago and when I left the military (around two and a half years ago) the IDF was not inside of any Palestinian towns or cities. (hell for the most part, even if they were shooting at us, we weren’t allowed to go inside the cities or as what was termed “area A”)

You know again its very easy to get lost in all the violence and who is this or who does that but step out for a second and ask yourself honestly why Israel ever went back in the first place after in the Oslo years they voluntarily pulled out of every Palestinian city, town and village.

Oh btw as for innocents that are killed by accident as a result of being next to a targeted terrorist, well its unfortunate but its unavoidable sometimes in combat (in any combat) especially when they place themselves there on purpose (to get world sympathy).

This is from a “today’s pictures” thread a while ago

(This is the real reality of what happens most of the time)

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040211/i/r1566466835.jpg

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040211/i/r817088121.jpg

http://delivery.*****images.com/comp/2967625.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DE20A975EB9D3E35C0AA1F349BACC11BD8

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040211/capt.jrl12302112014.mideast_israel_palestinians_jrl123.jpg

A masked Hamas militant sets up a makeshift mortar launcher against Israeli forces, unseen, as Palestinian youths try to cover him from the sight of the forces during an incursion in a Gaza city's neighborhood, Wednesday Feb. 11, 2004.

(If this last pic doesn’t show up…..it shows a kid purposely standing right in front of this mortar)


One of Israel’s former prime Ministers, the late Golda Meir once said, “peace can only come when the Arabs learn to love their own children more then they hate ours”



m203, you asked me about their goals. Well, I can't answer them for you, because all the different organisations seems to me like they're wanting something different all of them, No that’s not true. Whatever their differences, they are all united in getting rid of all the Jews from all of Israel

Its extremely important that you know that or at least not ignore that reality and not simply say you don’t know what their goals are for that’s an important and vital reality and factor to understand when talking about this conflict.


except eradicating all jews of course so really, I don't know... I just know they use some dirty tactics like suicide bombings to achive them (unlikely, but in their little dream world it can work :| ), just like the IDF is using not dirty perhaps, but risky methods like levelling houses, precision bombing in urban areas etc. Well taking away whether you approve of it or not for a second, the leveling of houses and precision bombings of terrorists (those are the only targets) are not the same as what they do, in deliberate targeting of civilians.

There is no moral equivalence to Israel targeting Palestinian murderers, who mostly target innocent civilians, and accidentally killing a bystander, to the Palestinian terrorists constantly mostly only targeting innocent civilians

As for house demolitions, ok yes I understand that it is very controversial, though its important to understand the houses that are destroyed are only those that are used by homicide bombers (and it is a preventive measure to other would be homicide bombers) and are at homes that were used as cover for snipers to shoot at Israelis.

Israel is NOT indiscriminately leveling houses.

The percent of houses destroyed by Israel in all of the west bank and gaza is .ooooooooo percent etc..

Now yes I understand the controversy of the house demolitions, fine, though don’t take it out of proportion as if rightly or wrongly (whatever you believe about this practice), if Israel didn’t do any of it, there wouldn’t be this violence from them for that’s simply false and its not having a true understanding of the reality that we face.



And I think you hit the heads on the nail when you said that anyone can justify for anything. Yes but it doesn’t make it rational or justified!!

My point is that rational people, as we democratic nations (or even you "enlightened" Euros as you are supposed to be) aren’t supposed to justify anything that’s irrational or what irrational people say, simply because everyone can find anything understanding for anyone from their point of view.

I mean I don’t think Eruo’s are justifying a person that murders a child in cold blood and then claims it’s his religious belief to do so, and then Euros say it justified for that person rationalized it due to his faith and who are we (generic) to say he is wrong :roll:

Point is that there is no sane justification for the targeting and murdering of civilians.

That’s called terrorism. And it is not justified even if some people say it is.(as there will be always people that will be able to justify anything, even the most cruel thing imaginable…however, it doesn’t make it right or justified)


And that's where I'm going at, Israel justifies their attacks on urban populace as a war against terrorism, when the Palestinians justifies their bombings in the same enviroment for getting rid of the evil oppressors. Israel justifies their attacks on terrorists that reside in urban populaces because we have no choice, the Palestinians justify the targeting of Israel civilians in civilians populaces because :roll: ……and you (generic) in Europe justify it as well :roll:

As for evil oppressors, yeah we are evil oppressors thats why we pulled out of every Palestinian city, town and village during the Oslo years. Yeah that’s why their standard of living (before now when we went back in due to this war) was higher then most of their fellow Arabs in the 22 Arab countries and certainly better then the way the Palestinians are treated in Lebanon for example)



Before Israel went in, there were a homicide attack against Israeli civilians almost daily or weekly, now its once every few months (and with the completion of the anti terror security fence it will be even less), if the IDF did or does nothing to defend Israel, that daily homicide bomber rate would have continued.

(For further understanding read my sigline, the one in bold)



None is a saint, none is a saint anywhere in the world.

I strongly believe that if your nation had the same borders and the same issues we had you would do at least or even more as what we have done (I know you living comfortable there in Sweden without the neighbors that we have, are laughing at what I say but to me I believed what I said for I believe you get a wrong picture of what we face and how we do it…or some of you critics (I am not saying you specifically) do know what we face, but yet let your inner prejudices that I believe never went away (just after the holocaust, went hidden for a while) and now try to mask it up with clear falsehoods to try to portray yourselves as some sort of legitimate criticism when in truth a lot of it is not (a lot is made up) but rather iits based on pure and unadulterated and longstanding prejudices (that I feel was always there).



and I'm afraid that the Israel-Palestine conflict is about as unsolvable as living in a radiated enviroment :| yes and who’s fault is that??

Yes I too am pessimistic :(

I tell you that if Israel didn’t fire a single shot and even if it pulled out of the West Bank and Gaza, there would still be no peace.

How's that for a reality check?!!




They CAN'T defeat the IDF and that's where I'm getting at, thus they use these sad methods of irregular warfare! Well again its not mere irragulr warfare when they mostly target civilians. Thats not warfare at all, thats terrorism!!


Secondly again, they never had to fight the IDF (even dirty) if it merely was about ending “the occupation” of the 1967 borders and not the whole Israel (as I believe it is about) for if it was just that, then they didn’t have to do any of this. They could have gotten it in the Oslo years whem Israel pulled out of every Palestinian town and city and they had full autonomy of their own lives and then barak offered to pull out of much much more, but even in those years homicide bombings on Israeli civilians was happening and after the barak offer, they didn’t even return for negotiations but rather started this whole war (where they mostly target civilians)

You see arguing about oppressors (which we are not and certinly not in the Oslo years), freedom fighters, even terrorists is all falling for the trees and missing the whole forest so to speak.

The bigger picture is that in the Palestinian society (and in the Arab world in general), there is a large segment (not all) that is fighting for the whole Israel and nothing Israel does or doesn’t do will change that.

If it were just about the 1967 borders, the conflict would have ended a while ago.

What’s clear is that its not and its about the whole Israel.



P.S. You said before that you haven’t seen my postings, well perhaps thats because I have tried in recent months to limit my postings to military topics (though I have made exceptions every now and then or as I am doing now) and haven’t posted on political threads as much as I used to (like when I first came on) so in fact I haven’t stopped posting here but I guess you haven’t been checking out any military topics. Anyways we have a good conversation here. Even though I have gone over it before, when I see respect shown in a conversation or at least some level headiness, I don’t mind making my exception and going over it again.


Shalom to you :D

[Merik]

You guys need your own topic. Dont hijack someone elses, kinda rude and misleading.

[El'Potato]

OK Merik, this'll be a PM then

[AFG]

sweet jesus i thought this was a Helo discussion and it somehow got turned into this...


plus - provides interesting video for forums

plus - gives martinexsquaddie something to write about

minus - makes for terrible Nicolas Cage movies

:D


to get somewhat on topic, that movie was stupid.


I AM THE GREATEST! I AM THE GREATEST!
then he crashes into a telephone pole or something

[IDFM203]

Although I didn’t initiate this hijacking (if you go back to the first page, you’ll see it’s the same usual “hijacker” :roll: ) but yes I guess I bear some responsibility to finally responding here (I actually held back for a while from jumping in, but after reading constant postings well…..)

Anyways to make it up and to get back to this topic, here are some pics of the apache in the IAF (the IAF also has the longbow version, though I couldn’t find any pics of it now)

http://www.iaf.co.il/sip_storage/files/3/15913.jpg

http://www.iaf.co.il/sip_storage/files/5/15905.jpg

http://www.iaf.co.il/sip_storage/files/5/15925.jpg

http://www.iaf.co.il/sip_storage/files/1/15911.jpg

For more go to the official IAF website (http://www.iaf.co.il/Templates/HomePage/HomePage.aspx?lang=EN)



P.S. To El'Potato

PM sent :D


Shalom :D

[S'13]

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~steven/images/apacheiaf2.jpg

AH-64A Apache ''Peten'' in IAF colors. :D

[IDFM203]

I found it :D (Longbow ;) )

http://waronline.procentr.org/Waronline_photo/ah-64d_01.jpg

P.S. to S13............nice pic.............oh and I forgot, thanks for the compliment ;) :D



Shalom :D