We always have answer :)

[Nikolas]

http://airbase.ru/users/img/b747-shuttle02.jpg

AND

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bbur53.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bbur51.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bbur47.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bbur34.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bbur33.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bbur68.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bbur16.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bburan28.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bbur12.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bbur70.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bbur32.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/baikal1.jpg



http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/end7.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/end20.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/end21.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/shuter2.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/gif/comparis.gif
[/list]

[AK-Lover]

Where did the crew of discovery take their vacation?, all over the state of Texas! :P rofl

[mustamato]

http://www.buran.ru/images/gif/comparis.gif

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bbur32.jpg

Has the Russian launched even one of these out to space? And the
comparison pic is great. I wonder where they got the idea :)

[Seoulstriker]

yeah, where did they get that idea? :P


great pictures. woot

[Ratamacue]

Where did the crew of discovery take their vacation?, all over the state of Texas! :P rofl

Not only was that horribly not-funny, but the ship was the Columbia, dumbass.

[AK-Lover]

Oh it was Columbia, right! Thanx! :hug: Jeez dude lighten up! Have a sense of humour! :hug: rofl

[Ratamacue]

Oh it was Columbia, right! Thanx! :hug: Jeez dude lighten up! Have a sense of humour! :hug: rofl

Piss off.

[TALOS]

Oh it was Columbia, right! Thanx! :hug: Jeez dude lighten up! Have a sense of humour! :hug: rofl
A sense of humour :cantbeli: its not funny, what is their to laugh about?

[George W. Bush]

It's not funny.. unless you're a bitter Russian or some other unsavory character.

[scm77]

Where did the crew of discovery take their vacation?, all over the state of Texas! :P rofl

That was so horribly offensively funny! :lol: rofl :lol:

[Operation Ivy]

Where did the crew of discovery take their vacation?, all over the state of Texas! :P rofl

Um F uck Off

[AK-Lover]

well I can see at least some fellow canadians have a sense of HUMOUR!
It's called black HUMOUR! Mkay? :D :P :hug:

[ExtraT]

Has the Russian launched even one of these out to space?

Yes. Once, in automated mode - and then the money ended.

Generally speaking, reusable space vehicles proved to be more trouble than they are worth. The future will be non-reusable.

Another thing - although the russian shuttle is superficially similar to the American, it has a very different design.

[Operation Ivy]

i dont see how laughing at people who died is funny :|

[Salty Dog]

Oh it was Columbia, right! Thanx! :hug: Jeez dude lighten up! Have a sense of humour! :hug: rofl

hey AK-F***er, what did the five fingers say to the face? :P


****.

[Operation Ivy]

O nice pics btw woot

[ExtraT]

[img]http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/baikal1.jpg



This one is a fake. As is the whole "second flight" story.

[ExtraT]

BTW, I have a question about An-225: Is it being commercially used? Coz I heard some conflicting stories about that. Some say it's mothballed, and is taken out only for parades, and others say it's being actively used for transporting cargo.

[Nikolas]

Seoulstriker

yeah, where did they get that idea?

It was the answer to the American program.
For that to have if necessary parity

mustamato

Has the Russian launched even one of these out to space?

You really do not know?
Yes
The ship flied to space. And, in completely automatic mode.

On a theme of idea

The first project of a similar sort has appeared in the USSR in four years after flight of Gagarin. Referred to "Спираль" - "Spiral"

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/model2.jpg


Some more a photo

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/blast.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/gif/start.gif

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bbura231.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bburan2.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/landgg.jpg

[TALOS]

well I can see at least some fellow canadians have a sense of HUMOUR!
It's called black HUMOUR! Mkay? :D :P :hug:
Laughing at their deaths is not black humour, its offensive, if the americans made a joke about Canadians who died you would be one of the first to jump down their throats

[Nikolas]

http://www.k26.com/buran/assets/images/comp3.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/onmria.jpg

[AK-Lover]

Actually I wouldn't :D Because I'm not going throught PMS right now! Just Joking! :D But really it's only black humour, and I read the joke in Maxim.

[Vance]

Still doesn't make it the least bit funny.

[AK-Lover]

An why not? :|

[Yard Ape]

Where did the crew of discovery take their vacation?, all over the state of Texas! roflThat is not funny. :bash:

[Groove]

SEA LAUNCH had no launches until today ? I mean commercial and not testings.

Is it a SATURN V carrying the Buran ?

Groove

[Yard Ape]

well I can see at least some fellow canadians have a sense of HUMOUR!Are you Serbian-boy?

[Beowulf]

well I can see at least some fellow canadians have a sense of HUMOUR!Are you Serbian-boy?

Yes he is.

[Nikolas]

Air transportation

http://www.buran.ru/images/gif/atlant2.gif

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/atlant2.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/gif/atlant3.gif

For transportation of details the modified bomber 3М was used

Photos of a bomber:

http://combatavia.com1.ru/3m_01.jpg

http://combatavia.com1.ru/3m_04.jpg

http://combatavia.com1.ru/3m_02.jpg

http://combatavia.com1.ru/3m_03.jpg

The circuit of updating for transportation:

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/3mbig.jpg

[Nikolas]

Groove

Is it a SATURN V carrying the Buran ?

Very funny :)

Saturn is the American rocket.

Russian Rocket - carrier "Энергия" - "Energy" is carrying Buran.

some photos:

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/big1.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/big2.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/big4.jpg

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bbur54.jpg

[Ratamacue]

Is there anything out there comparing the performance of the US Shuttle to the Buran? Just curious. I'm guessing that the Buran was designed later on and as such had some better systems.

[buckeyedoc]

Has the Russian launched even one of these out to space?

Yes. Once, in automated mode - and then the money ended.

Generally speaking, reusable space vehicles proved to be more trouble than they are worth. The future will be non-reusable.

Another thing - although the russian shuttle is superficially similar to the American, it has a very different design.

I have to disagree. People are shelling out a ton of time and money for the X Prize. http://www.xprize.org/

[Nikolas]

First of all Russia had own development.
Distinguished on design from American.
But in a consequence the decision to take for a basis of design the American Shuttle was accepted.
But on similarity in design all also comes to an end.
At the Buran a plenty of basic differences from a Shuttle

[Russian Texan]

The USSR space shuttle Buran flew unmanned on its maiden voyage November 15, 1988. The then-new Energia rocket ferried the new shuttle successfully to two orbits and a picture-perfect automated landing. Buran means snowstorm in Russian. It only ever flew once and that time it carried no pilots.

At that time, the Soviet's Energia rocket was the world's most powerful. Weighing 4.4 million-lbs., it developed 6.6 million lbs. of thrust and could carry 220,000 lbs. to orbit. That's 10 tons more than the U.S. Saturn 5 which had sent men to the Moon in 1969-72 and lofted the American space station Skylab in 1973. The U.S. abandoned Saturn 5 in 1973. Carrying 110 tons to orbit, Energia tripled the lifting ability of the U.S. space shuttle. Energia could lift payloads five times heavier than payloads carried by Proton, the Soviet's second most powerful rocket at the time.

The whole project idea was borrowed from americans, you see, soviet leaders thought that if US had it - USSR had to have it also. So even though that "Buran" was more advanced (fully automated), had a better payload capacity, etc. than Shuttle program, it still was a gimmick with no practical use. Rockets are much more reliable, have greater payload capacity and cheaper too. NASA is sticking with shuttle because there was to much money dumped into the project to abandon it and it is a matter of national pride - they are the only ones who have it.

[hank]

Well we all know that the Russians do everything 1) first and 2) better. The space shuttle, the B-29 - all totally original Russian designs that were totally NOT influenced by other desings. Glad to see Russian designers getting the proper respect they deserve. I mean, nobody had ever thought of a space ship that could go up with rockets and land like a plane. What a NOVEL idea!

hank

[Russian Texan]

Well we all know that the Russians do everything 1) first and 2) better. hank

Who told you that?
Hearing voices, seeing things?

USSR has borrowed plenty of ideas, including shuttle, so did US ;)
Oh wait, I forgot Saturn V was designed by the Indian chief "Sitting Bull"... :roll:

May be there was a race in the space but on the ground KGB and SVR have clearly outplayed NSA and CIA, that is how russians came up with so many "original" designs and ideas ;)

[Nikolas]

The main differences between the space aeroplane Buran and Suttle-orbiter are follows:
- the automatic landing of Buran from orbit onto airdrome;
- the absence ot the main rocket engine on the orbital aeroplane. The main engine was placed onto a central block of a carrier-rocket ENERGIA which is able to launch into an orbit 120 tonns of payload against 30 tonns for Space Shuttle;
- the hight lift-drag ratio of the space aeroplane Buran is 6.5 against 5.5 for Space Shuttle;
- the space aeroplane Buran returned 20 tonns of payloads against 15 tonns for Space Shuttle orbiter from an orbit to an aerodrome;
- the cutting lay-out pattern of thermoprotection tiles of Buran is optimal and longitudinal slits of tile belts are orthogonal to the flow line. Sharp angles of tiles are absent. The tile belts of the Buran fuselage and fin have an optimal position

[MVSpartan117]

Where did the crew of discovery take their vacation?, all over the state of Texas! :P rofl

Hey **** you buddy,

I live right on space coast, not only was that one of the saddest things hat has happen here, it also has put the space shuttle program in jeopardy, people have lost thier jobs.

I was lucky enough, if you can say that, to go to see the wreckage of the columbia at the space center. It was onw of the saddest things I have ever see. The most moving object there was the windshield, there were flowers stacked up around it, and many people crying, even men.

Think before you ****ing speak, you might offend someone

[Russian Texan]

Oh it was Columbia, right! Thanx! :hug: Jeez dude lighten up! Have a sense of humour! :hug: rofl

It is quite inappropriate to say atleast...
Bad taste, poor manners...I think you shold apologize.

[hank]

Well we all know that the Russians do everything 1) first and 2) better. hank

Who told you that?
Hearing voices, seeing things?

USSR has borrowed plenty of ideas, including shuttle, so did US ;)
Oh wait, I forgot Saturn V was designed by the Indian chief "Sitting Bull"... :roll:

May be there was a race in the space but on the ground KGB and SVR have clearly outplayed NSA and CIA, that is how russians came up with so many "original" designs and ideas ;)

Well it obviously worked out great for you didn't it? I mean the USSR is really tearing it up these days, right? Oops. Will this Russia is great BS ever stop for $200 Alex? Answer? What is when hell freezes over? CORRECT

hank

[Nikolas]

Now will begin comparison of the USSR - Russia - USA
There is a kind of people which suffer emotional problems
Any theme can spoil.

[hank]

Well nikolas that is really the point isn't it. USSR did all this and now poor Russia has to stand alone. Well, USA had nothing to do with it anyway, right? I mean the USSR failed of its own weight, didn't it? That Russian space initiative is going great. So is the economy. As well as your internal politics. It is all just a big ol walk in Gorky park right now for Russia. Plus so many of the other republics of the USSR are just booming. And Eastern Europe. I mean, I bet they sure wish that the ol curtain could come back. USSR was great. Oops.

hank

[Ratamacue]

Hank, shut the **** up already.

[hank]

rat - where is the love? Left on the last flight to earth orbit in the russian space shuttle?

hank

[Russian Texan]

Hank, what is your problem?

[hank]

no problem, why do you think there is a problem just b/c I question nikolai. He posted this stuff and now its fair game.

Its not like I am rippin on him or calling him names or anything, now is it?

All this russia is great crap is tiring and if I want to question thus thread then so be it. If you have a problem with it, then answer for him. I mean, if I had said something about dead russian soldiers being good at chechyn siteseeing then it would be different, right? Wouldn't it?

I'm about through with all the russia is great nonsense, but not quite yet.

hank

[Nikolas]

hank

It is all just a big ol walk in Gorky park right now for Russia

You speak about this Buran?

http://www.k26.com/buran/assets/images/Park.jpg

ORBITER NAME: OK-TVA (STATIC TESTER)

This model never intended for flights
OK-TVA was subjected to loads tests on the nose, wings, vertical stabilizer, elevons, balance, heating and static vibration tests.

Left on the last flight to earth orbit in the russian space shuttle?

And what with the Buran to do? He is not profitable. As well as US the Shuttle.
It is much cheaper and easier to put cargoes into an orbit by means of disposable carriers.

The parity with America is achieved, technologies are developed. If necessary the project with changes can be revived.

I mean the USSR failed

How disintegration of the USSR was connected to that that the Energy - Buran is created?
I want to tell: What for here in general to discuss disintegration of the USSR?

[Russian Texan]

no problem, why do you think there is a problem just b/c I question nikolai. He posted this stuff and now its fair game.

You don't question, you make stupid comments...


All this russia is great crap is tiring
What are you talking about, he just provided some info and pictures regarding soviet version of shuttle... If you don't care olt it makes you upset and raises your blood pressure - don't look, simple like that :)

If you don't want to hear/learn about soviet shuttle program, start a thread about american...


I'm about through with all the russia is great nonsense, but not quite yet.
Whatever it means... :roll:

[hank]

"The parity with America is achieved, technologies are developed. If necessary the project with changes can be revived." - why? did someone here question the validity of the soviet/russian space shuttle? If the real motive is just the pictures then why post this crap? This is the only point nikolai is tryin to make - the shuttle is irrelevant.

This is the point of all these similar threads - whether it is tanks, shuittles, guns, wars, whatever. none of the russian stuff that gets posted gets posted for the sake of just pictures - it always has to be a contest. There is no contest, it ended a long time ago. We let it go, so should you.

If you want to talk about russian stuff all the time go over to uninen's place where all the russians talk about russians. If you want ot provide great pictures then fell free b/c I apprecitate them. Just leave out the BS.

Stupid comments? Do I really need to go through the endless parade of BS from the Russians, including plenty of posts by you, on this forum in thread after thread after thread about chechnya/astan? Believe me, a lot more thought goes into my comments than does the normal parade of BS that flies out when russian topics come up. Thinking does not appear to be your forte.

nikolai's quote above is the reason for his "pictures" and the whole thread in the first place. If you don't want to deal with it fine, then you don't look at what I post or whatever. If he posts it then I am going to post what I want, ya' dig?Don't like it? Tough. Its not like I am doing what you guys do - namecalling and acting tough on the internet - all russian offenders know who I mean. I mean, if you post it, then you shouldn't care, right?

About being done, my point is that sometime in the very near future I will quit looking at the pictures that nikolai, premie and the rest of you guys post. Not b/c I don't enjoy the pictures but b/c I don't like to walk through the endless piles of BS to get to them. While I am sure you would like to think so, nothing on this forum will get my blood pressure up, I assure you. I do appreciate your concern for my cardiovascular health though.

hank

[Ratamacue]

Hank, shut the f*** up already.

[hank]

rat - I say again - where is the love? I never even addressed you? what gives. I really fail to see why you or Russian Texan would even care. nikolai is a big boy, he can handle it. If you need to get something off your chest get started.

hank

[Ratamacue]

You're being an asshole. Nikolai posted pictures of the Russian version of the shuttle. I'd never seen it before and thought it was interesting. It seemed that most other people thought so too. You had to get started on a rant on Russia and going against Russian pride when very little (if any) of such was shown in the thread. You started this ****. So I say again:


Hank, shut the f*** up already.

[Nikolas]

hank

It seems to me, that you have problems and I not that person who can help to solve to you these problems.

If I wanted to talk about a politics or economy I would write in a political or economic forum.
Here people place photos. If you have questions on these photos or on characteristics - ask them.

Yes, I enough the big boy, but my English am poor also to me it would not be desirable to spend a great lot of my time for translation of that at all, that you write.
Because I see, that on a theme ( Buran, US Shuttle) you do not write.

[Russian Texan]

The parity with America is achieved, technologies are developed. If necessary the project with changes can be revived." - why? did someone here question the validity of the soviet/russian space shuttle? If the real motive is just the pictures then why post this crap? This is the only point nikolai is tryin to make - the shuttle is irrelevant.
With this kind of approach and argumentation any post on this board can be questioned...
100% of all posts here have some kind of a "hidden agenda", whether it is to inform, educate, glorify, argue or like in your case - just pick a fight.


This is the point of all these similar threads - whether it is tanks, shuittles, guns, wars, whatever. none of the russian stuff that gets posted gets posted for the sake of just pictures
You do realize that this is "photos & video" section of the board, right?
That is what people do here: they post pictures and come to see/learn something new and different... And based on the number of hits and feedback, "russian pictures" seem to be quite popular around here ;)
Btw, have you ever thought why do people post pictures? I'll tell you why: they post pictures of polish SF, israeli hardware and swedish soldiers training because they are proud of their countries military/technological achievments and want to share it with others, pride is not an american monopoly you know...


Stupid comments? Do I really need to go through the endless parade of BS from the Russians
Yes, it would help to get your point across.


including plenty of posts by you
An example?



Thinking does not appear to be your forte
No its not, fortunately I have been blessed with a great mix of both thinking and doing, this combo serves me quite well, trust me ;)


If you don't want to deal with it fine
Deal with what?


sometime in the very near future I will quit looking at the pictures that nikolai, premie and the rest of you guys post
Why in the "near future", why not quit now? :)


I do appreciate your concern for my cardiovascular health though
This is the least I can do for you Sir.

[AFG]

Where did the crew of discovery take their vacation?, all over the state of Texas! :P rofl
christ, wtf is wrong with you?

[Nikolas]

ExtraT

BTW, I have a question about An-225: Is it being commercially used?

I know only about one plane.

It is used by Ukrainian company " Antonov Airline"

[hoganshero]

It's nice to see that Buran has not been forgotten. In many respects it is a step up from the space shutle. The move of many of the thrusters off of the shuttle and onto the main booster freed up a ton of cargo space. the increase in cargo space could problably offset the cost of "americanizing" the buran as a stop-gap between the shuttle and its replacement. considering the cost (10s of thousands of dollars per kilogram) the extra space could act as dollar cost averaging and slightly reduce (a drop in the bucket when we are talking about milions almost billions of dollars but every bit helps!) the cost per kilogram to take items into space. Maybe in my dreams. Actually in my dreams Russia revives Buran and the ISS takes off growing at freight train speed. Or Russia builds a radio telescope on the dark side of the moon and shows us what is at the far side of the universe. Hank you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss Buran. It may have been very heavily influenced by The US's enterprise prototype but it does take the design into new and very interesting directions. I think that borrowing designs that work and improve on them is not cheating but smart economics. Let another country do all the proof of concept work and pick up where they leave off. Its what Rome did and after all the US is patterned after Rome. Perhaps the Italians should be thumbing their noses at the entire concept of your contry much like britain can to mine....stones... glass houses... you know the rest. On the other hand what works; works!

[obd]

ok all those people, and you know who you are, who have posted under everything you post "Canadians are the most liked people in the world because they NEVER say anything offensive to anyone". You can officially delete that as you were just proven dead wrong by this fine example of a Canadian asshole after diarhhea------>Ak reject

[Kingpin]

I don't know where we took this idea :)
But this thing worked perfectly in its flight. It was landed in automatic mode without any human help. Shuttles never did this.
Also whole system while looking similar to shuttle workied completely different. Central tank on shuttle - is only fuel tank. While on Buran it is booster itself (called Energia). It can launch not only shuttles but also any other satellites up to 100 tons weight. First launch of Energia was used to put on orbit huge military platform Polus.

[Marmot1]

borowed idea??? :roll: we call it plagiarism in civilized world... yeah it is diferent but the airframe of shutle is very very veeeery simmilar...

and about autmatic landing... are you sure nbody was on board to help automate it...? ;)

[Kingpin]

borowed idea??? :roll: we call it plagiarism in civilized world... yeah it is diferent but the airframe of shutle is very very veeeery simmilar...

and about autmatic landing... are you sure nbody was on board to help automate it...? ;)

My father worked on space control center in life support dept.
Who if not he can know if someone on board. He always was proud about this automatic landing and told me all details he know.

About plagiarism.... Find 10 differences between Boeing and Airbus ariframes... Man! If idea fits perfectly to its purpose why produce something different?

[Russian Texan]

borowed idea??? :roll: we call it plagiarism in civilized world...

You mean like Beryl, PT 91 and almost every other "polish" weapon ;)
"civilized world"...yeah, sure...

[Herrmannek]

borowed idea??? :roll: we call it plagiarism in civilized world...

You mean like Beryl, PT 91 and almost every other "polish" weapon ;)
"civilized world"...yeah, sure...
We bought it not borrowed....

[Marmot1]

borowed idea??? :roll: we call it plagiarism in civilized world...

You mean like Beryl, PT 91 and almost every other "polish" weapon ;)
"civilized world"...yeah, sure...

Well not, we paid for license to build it and it is diference...and we always credited invention to russian engeners, and never stated that it is genuine polish invention, but there is also a lot of modification done by polish enginers...

Asf for boeing and airbus there is big diference for me.

[ExtraT]

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bbur54.jpg

BTW, there is a good story here. This black object strapped to "Energia" is a combat sattelite. Read about it over here:

http://astronautix.com/craft/polyus.htm

[Marmot1]

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bbur54.jpg

BTW, there is a good story here. This black object strapped to "Energia" is a combat sattelite. Read about it over here:

http://astronautix.com/craft/polyus.htm

combat??? AFAIK international law related to space forbids combat instalations on orbit... only spying satelites are allowed.

[ExtraT]

Generally speaking, both Buran and Space Shuttle are failed programs. They both were conceived as a workhorse for SDI, and both proved to be overpriced and unsafe. SS was designed earlier, and with bigger commitment, that's why it's still in use, and Buran just ran out of money. And I say it's good that it did - if USSR was to commit to it, there would be no Russian manned space program today.

The most interesting part is that Buran is, to some extent, a copy of SS. Specifically, in the case of Buran there is absolutely no need for the vehicle to be mounted on the side of the booster. And, considering that BOTH shuttle accidents are direct result of side mounting, it is a pretty big flaw. The rescue system that Buran lovers are so proud of (and SS lacks completely), is plainly an "after the fact" addition (specifically, after Challanger accident). The ejection system functions only for the upper deck occupants, and on flights with more than 4 passangers would not have been installed at all.

Additionally, Buran project had a negative overall effect on the Russian space program. For example, abandonement of the TKS manned vehicle program - a very unfortunate mistake. It was a clear advancement over the Soyuz vehicle, and it was completely ready.

[ExtraT]

combat??? AFAIK international law related to space forbids combat instalations on orbit... only spying satelites are allowed.

Ever heard of SDI? This was an ASAT weapon, specifically developed against SDI sattelites.

[AK-Lover]

Sorry everybody that I have offended with my Columbia joke I didn't think it would stir up so much comotion, sorry again. :( :oops:

[GazB]

Sorry everybody that I have offended with my Columbia joke I didn't think it would stir up so much comotion, sorry again.


I have heard plenty of jokes about Russian submarines... especially after the Kursk. Are we all that innocent?
Still, a very tasteless remark... I won't call it a joke.

I accept your appology as genuine.


Has the Russian launched even one of these out to space? And the
comparison pic is great. I wonder where they got the idea

NASA spent billions testing many different design shapes and decided that the shuttle shape was the best. Why on Earth would the Russians be stupid enough to ignore all that work just to make a different shape? Are the wheels on the Shuttle not round? ...don't tell me they invented the wheel.

Note there are a few important differences... especially in the cockpit... notice the ejection seat handles... they would have made no difference for a reentry problem but might have saved the crew of the Challenger.

And Yes, the Buran was launched once on automatic (without a crew). Though one later flight was cancelled... and by the time the third one became possible the money was gone.


BTW, I have a question about An-225: Is it being commercially used? Coz I heard some conflicting stories about that. Some say it's mothballed, and is taken out only for parades, and others say it's being actively used for transporting cargo.


It is being used so much (by NATO and UN) that they are actually making the other aircraft which was just a prototype model into a fully flyable aircraft.


It was the answer to the American program.
For that to have if necessary parity

The Soviets believed that the Shuttle was a military weapon. AS most of the funding and more than half its flights were military that is not far from the truth. They though it might be used as a bomber or to steal satellites from orbit.


Is it a SATURN V carrying the Buran ?

No, it is Energya.


Is there anything out there comparing the performance of the US Shuttle to the Buran? Just curious. I'm guessing that the Buran was designed later on and as such had some better systems.

The Buran is a much better design and that is not from bias. Basically the American space shuttle is an underpowered truck that won't move off the ground without a sharp push from two solid rocket boosters. The Shuttle has its own engines... but has to strap on a huge fuel tank to carry all the fuel it needs to get into orbit. This makes it too heavy for its own engines to lift it so it needs two strap on solid rocket boosters to actually get moving. The solid rocket boosters are bad for several reasons. First is that they are expensive and toxic and you can't shut them down or throttle them once they are lit. By comparison the rocket motors on the shuttle are clean and cheap... hydrogen burning oxygen makes that big white cloud that comes from the shuttle engines a real rain cloud... it is steam.
Because of the way it was designed the shuttle has to take its rocket motors up to space with it an all the way back to earth too... and they weigh about 10 tons.

The Buran is a payload. It has its own manouvering rockets but it just sits on top of the Energyia and is dragged into space. It weighs about the same as the Space shuttle but because it doesn't carry its own engines it can carry more than 1/3rd more payload (ie 30 tons) and has more room and is lighter structurally.
Also very usefully the Energyia is a launch system by itself and instead of launching a 100 ton shuttle it can launch a 100 ton payload on its back into orbit. The Shuttle has no way of doing that.
The cost of the Energyia... which is completely destroyed when used normally is actually far less than the cost of a US Space shuttle mission as the cost of refurbishing the Shuttles enignes and recovering the solid rocket boosters and reusing them is very expensive.

The huge advantage of a shuttle system is that you can capture and repair in orbit satellites. If you just want to replace crews on a space station or send up supplies then the existing Russian Progress rockets are currently the most cost effective way to do that. It costs more than $600 million US for each Shuttle launch (and Buran would cost at least half of that if fully operational), whereas a progress launch costs about $60 million. If the shuttle could be launched with a full payload and were to land with a full payload that somehow were miraculously changed into pure gold it still wouldn't be a free flight after all the gold is sold.


Well it obviously worked out great for you didn't it? I mean the USSR is really tearing it up these days, right? Oops. Will this Russia is great BS ever stop for $200 Alex? Answer? What is when hell freezes over? CORRECT


Why is it that americans feel so threatened when someone suggests that something might be better than what they have?


none of the russian stuff that gets posted gets posted for the sake of just pictures - it always has to be a contest.

No... you mean the other C word... its a conspirasy... quick check under your bed... ther could be a red there!!!!


BTW a big thanks to Nikolas for the excellent pictures... I had quite a few, but some of the ones you posted I hadn't seen before. Very nice.
(And your English is much better than my Russian... which is almost non existant.)


I think that borrowing designs that work and improve on them is not cheating but smart economics.

Don't be silly, the Americans are perfect according to Hank. They didn't, for example go into the Mir space station to go to the toilet because the toilet facilities were better on Mir than on the Shuttle (which is designed for up to 5-7 day flights) even though the last thing they needed on Mir was extra solid waste to get rid of. Also current US Space suit designs are based on Russian models where the back pack opens out and you jump into it from the back and close the backpack to put it on. The older US suits took 7 hours to put on and went on section by section with arm parts and leg parts all seperate.


And, considering that BOTH shuttle accidents are direct result of side mounting, it is a pretty big flaw. The rescue system that Buran lovers are so proud of (and SS lacks completely), is plainly an "after the fact" addition (specifically, after Challanger accident).

The Challenger accident occured quite a number of years after the money dried up for Buran. All models I have seen show ejection seats for Buran... why retrofit an escape system for a dead project?

BTW comments that Buran cost too much are niave. The Russians were building 10,000 ton submarines out of Titanium at the time. Money wasn't an issue when you own everything... ie all is government controlled afterall.
Without diverting into politics for too long it was the overall cost of maintaining a military machine to match the rest of the world while being economically isolated that was the problem. Look at Communist China's economy for example... if treated fairly there is no reason why communism should mean poverty. Dragging a peasant society kicking and screaming into the 20th and now the 21st century and surviving nuts like Stalin and Hitler, going through the pain of WWI, WWII and the cold war and achieving rough parity with a largely lucky protected country called the US... they didn't really do that bad of a job overall. I doubt the Tsars would have gotten Russia into a better position. (If you think communism was the problem the British and the west didn't like the Tsars much either... the British thought the Russians might invade India right through the late 1800s and early 20th century and the US seems to have seen the Russians as a rival since day one.

[perdurabo]

i've heard that they draw a dot on runway and automaticly landing Buran landed 2m further and 1m on left from that dot! :)

[hank]

You're being an asshole. Nikolai posted pictures of the Russian version of the shuttle. I'd never seen it before and thought it was interesting. It seemed that most other people thought so too. You had to get started on a rant on Russia and going against Russian pride when very little (if any) of such was shown in the thread. You started this ****. So I say again:


Hank, shut the f*** up already.

Ratamacue - f*** yourself you 17 year old twerp. This did not even involve you. I usually don't use a lot of profanity b/c it is against the rules, but since you feel the need I will return in kind.

hank

[hank]

Russian Texan and nikolai I refer you to a post from another thread:

"I want to strss one thing however. There is a lot of posting here by people with a decidedly pro-russian agenda. Things like space ships, tanks, guns, etc. The idea behind these posts seems to be of two varieties.

First, they are often great pictures. These I really appreciate. Those photos are hard to find and I for one save them all b/c I like them.

The second type is a little more invidious. they tend to be things like - russians don't kill chechyns/astans, etc. The tinge on these posts sickens me. Also, what sickens me is the propensity for many of these people to turn violent and insulting when someone disagrees. I don't want ot name any names, but I will if would make anybody feel better.

I will post challenging comments in these threads, especially when thet are silly, as many of them are. I will not, never have and don't plan on, attack any racial group. But I will hold these guys' feet to the fire a little bit when necessary in my view. I hope that these kind of responses are not the ones we intend to get rid of.

We all need to remember that while this is private, in that Hood owns it and ultimatlely this is his house, it is public in that anybody can join, etc. If you post something here you should EXPECT the following: 1) disagreements - let's face it not everybody agrees - this fact is exacerbated by the fact that many here are young and often uninformed + opinionated. Not to say us old guys aren't guilty also, to be sure. 2) good-natured ribbing - c'mon we all think it is at least a litle funny when farmgirl and CJ and trigger get it going, don'e we? 3) insensitive comments - i mean when the russians post stuff about astan on here do they really think that americans are going to agree? or peopl from astan? Get real - that is the risk you take when you post - if you can't deal with it there may be other places more suited to your tastes.

What we should not stand for are:

1) discriminatory posts about race, religion, nationality, etc. - BUT don't confuse something based in FACT with discriminatory - i.e. Mexican immigrants ARE often impoverished - that is a fact that proven - not ALWAYS true but statistically defendable - MEXICANS spread disease is not - unless you have the ammo to back it up - then by all means go ahead b/c I would be interested in reading the study. I hope the distinction between these statemens - one discriminatory one non-discriminatory is obvious.

2) Any post that mentions violence against another poster. These are surprisingly common and absurd. Come offenders repeat, and repeat this nonsense. Being uninformed is not a crime or really even not understandable. If you see something wrong - correct it and correct it again if necessary - but don't threaten b/c it just has no place here in a civilised forum like this (I mean come on we can get away with beastiality jokes here so we must be civilised, right?).

Now I have singled oout the Russians here b/c IMO they are particularly egregious offenders. But there are other groups that are guilty - a few: marines, israelis, silly extreme Pro-Americans, and a lot more. I am going to continue to weigh in, while keeping the forum rules in mind, but I am not going to be silent when I see this crap.

no discrimitory comments - we all need to abide. cool.

hank"

Now - I am not going to go through every single thread about chechnya/astan to find the posts by you and the boys that I refer to b/c I don't really care enough to deal with it. They are there and you know it. This thread does not contain the violent posts, but the invidious type I refer to above.

Don't get me wrong the pictures themselves are great and appreciated - but the pro-Russian editorializing is just too much sometimes. For me, this was one of those times. I make no apologies for that.

I will post whatever I want whenever I want until Hood or some of the other mods say different. If you post this stuff and don't like the responses then I suggest you quit posting. I know what the intent of this thread was and if you don't want to admit it then so be it - but the title of the thread is what it is - if you don't like disagreements then it will be a tough road for you. The point is that I disagree. I can, do, will, should disagree as I see fit. Now I'm done and my bp is still in control.

hank

[Ratamacue]

Ratamacue - f*** yourself you 17 year old twerp. This did not even involve you. I usually don't use a lot of profanity b/c it is against the rules, but since you feel the need I will return in kind.

hank

So what if it doesn't involve me? I have the right to express my opinion on the issue and my opinion is that you're being a little baby for little or no reason. This thread isn't about Chechnya. This thread isn't about the Russian economy. It's not about angry posts by Russians either. It's about the Buran.

By the way, I'm 15, not 17. Does age matter that much, anyway?

[Russian Texan]

Hank, do you ever look in a mirror, read your own posts?
They should have your picture by the old saying: "The one who sees a sand grain in others eye but can not see a log in his own."
I don't know what your last name is but your middle name for sure has to be "double standard".
Hank Double standard Jones... Quite accurate and has a ring to it ;)

Some of the people from various countries here might go on a "wild tangents", but you are no better - think about it...

To sum it up, my reply to your righteous, self-indulging post is: yawn, "Whatever"...

[RomanS]

You're being an asshole. Nikolai posted pictures of the Russian version of the shuttle. I'd never seen it before and thought it was interesting. It seemed that most other people thought so too. You had to get started on a rant on Russia and going against Russian pride when very little (if any) of such was shown in the thread. You started this ****. So I say again:


Hank, shut the f*** up already.

Ratamacue - f*** yourself you 17 year old twerp. This did not even involve you. I usually don't use a lot of profanity b/c it is against the rules, but since you feel the need I will return in kind.

hank

lol

You guys pissed him off now, watch out.

Admins admins, before I rip into this, admins admins loool

this is awesome

[Longbranch]

http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bburan2.jpg

Jeez, I loved seeing the Mig 25 Foxbat in this photo. Heck, I love just saying the word "Foxbat". Looks like a two seater… trainer maybe? so one guy can keep an eye on the shuttle?

[hank]

Ratamacue - f*** yourself you 17 year old twerp. This did not even involve you. I usually don't use a lot of profanity b/c it is against the rules, but since you feel the need I will return in kind.

hank

So what if it doesn't involve me? I have the right to express my opinion on the issue and my opinion is that you're being a little baby for little or no reason. This thread isn't about Chechnya. This thread isn't about the Russian economy. It's not about angry posts by Russians either. It's about the Buran.

By the way, I'm 15, not 17. Does age matter that much, anyway?

I never said you could not express yourself, but you asked me not to, didn't you. You also dropped an f-bomb. check the posts, that is the order in which they came. 15? Yeah it does matter. You need to screw it on correctly. You told me to shut up b/c you disagreed with what I posted and then you don't understand why I respond? Grow up. The only person here whot tried to stop expression was you. Shall I quote? "Shut the f*** up." Original and thoughtful. Why don't you post something to show me why I am wrong? Try.

hank

[hank]

Hank, do you ever look in a mirror, read your own posts?
They should have your picture by the old saying: "The one who sees a sand grain in others eye but can not see a log in his own."
I don't know what your last name is but your middle name for sure has to be "double standard".
Hank Double standard Jones... Quite accurate and has a ring to it ;)

Some of the people from various countries here might go on a "wild tangents", but you are no better - think about it...

To sum it up, my reply to your righteous, self-indulging post is: yawn, "Whatever"...

point it out. where is the double standard? I'd like to see it. What is your point? Do you think that I incorrectly interpreted Nikolai? If so - point out my error. You can't b/c I'm not wrong.

Listen - it is real simple - I have told you exactly what I disagreed with about this thread - not the pictures but the editorializing. What about that statement do you not understand? Where is the double standard in that?

Note to forum - don't question any of these Russian guys - it is a double standard.

Think about it? Think about what? I never said that other countries don't "go" on "tangents" as you put it. I question them also. What does that have to do with Nikolai's posts? I don't see the connection. Do you want to talk about other countries? OK - I also think it is stupid when other countries do what Nikoli did here. Does that make my statement about Nikolai any more palatable? Why?

Don't change the subject - the point is that we all know what this is about. I questioned Nikolai about it and you don't like it. Obviously neither does Ratamacue. Maybe premie doesn't either. Guess what? I certainly won't lose any sleep and my bp is great.

The only people here who are doing anything even remotely close to flaming are you guys. I simply pointed out somehting that is silly and inconsistent in the motivation for this thread. Get over it.

hank

[Ratamacue]

I never said you could not express yourself, but you asked me not to, didn't you. You also dropped an f-bomb. check the posts, that is the order in which they came. 15? Yeah it does matter. You need to screw it on correctly. You told me to shut up b/c you disagreed with what I posted and then you don't understand why I respond? Grow up. The only person here whot tried to stop expression was you. Shall I quote? "Shut the f*** up." Original and thoughtful. Why don't you post something to show me why I am wrong? Try.

hank

I told you to shut up because you're totally out of line. You started all of this. You had NO REASON to start all of this. The Russians in this thread told us about their counter to the American shuttle, and you went off on a tangent against Russians with absolutely no provocation.


Well we all know that the Russians do everything 1) first and 2) better. The space shuttle, the B-29 - all totally original Russian designs that were totally NOT influenced by other desings. Glad to see Russian designers getting the proper respect they deserve. I mean, nobody had ever thought of a space ship that could go up with rockets and land like a plane. What a NOVEL idea!

Why did you all of a sudden do this? As far as I can tell, Russian Texan stated some information and facts about the Buran, including areas where it improved upon the US Shuttle. You responded in a hostile manner against the supposed lack-of-originality in the Russians. This thread was perfectly productive, informative, and interesting until you had to butt in.

[hank]

DELETED

[[AFSOC]]

DELETED

[He219]

Enough Thread-jacking! http://www.chatitaliachat.it/serpe/humor/130.gif

Keep this an informative post; as I believe it was intended to be.

[ExtraT]

It's nice that some people are still keeping up a constructive discussion. :)



NASA spent billions testing many different design shapes and decided that the shuttle shape was the best. Why on Earth would the Russians be stupid enough to ignore all that work just to make a different shape? Are the wheels on the Shuttle not round? ...


I couldn't agree more. These flamewars about who stole what are simply rediculous. When a designer uses somebody else's experience as a base, it's called progress, not plagiarism.



It is being used so much (by NATO and UN) that they are actually making the other aircraft which was just a prototype model into a fully flyable aircraft.


That's very good news. This plane definetly deserves it.



The Soviets believed that the Shuttle was a military weapon. AS most of the funding and more than half its flights were military that is not far from the truth. They though it might be used as a bomber or to steal satellites from orbit.


Shuttle was primarily conceived as the workhorse of SDI. Nobody in their right mind ever thought of it as a bomber :).



Because of the way it was designed the shuttle has to take its rocket motors up to space with it an all the way back to earth too... and they weigh about 10 tons.


Yes, that proved to be an extreme drawback. The original idea was that there will be very little service in between the flights. In reality, the service is quite extensive. They even open up parts that were never meant to be opened, except during rebuilding (once every 100 flights or something).
In general the SSME (Space Shuttle Main Engine) is a complete failure from economical standpoint. It's a dead weight in space, it's not really reusable, and it renders the launch system unusable for any other application than with the Space Shuttle (the engines are installed on the Shuttle). In this retrospect, Buran is a definite step up.



Also very usefully the Energyia is a launch system by itself and instead of launching a 100 ton shuttle it can launch a 100 ton payload on its back into orbit.

Yep. It's a real pity they scrapped Energia together with Buran. It would have been very useful right about now. For example, ISS could have been completed much faster, and at a fraction of the cost.
However, there is a big problem with Energia - lack of payloads designed to be carried by it. There are basically only 2 payload configurations that were fully tested with it, Buran and Polyus - and the latter was semi-successful (failed to insert into orbit). Designing payloads for it is a huge, expensive work - for which Russia has no resources now.
A great pity. :(



The huge advantage of a shuttle system is that you can capture and repair in orbit satellites.


Actually, the original idea was to also return sattelites back to earth and repair them. It proved to be quite rediculous in civilian applications. However, if one remembers what SS was built for (SDI) - it suddenly makes perfect sence! :)



If you just want to replace crews on a space station or send up supplies then the existing Russian Progress rockets are currently the most cost effective way to do that.


And this (http://www.astronautix.com/craft/tks.htm) would have been even better. Note, that this is not a paper fantasy - it's a real spacecraft that was extensively tested in space. Hell, this program is probably even possible to reinstate.



The Challenger accident occured quite a number of years after the money dried up for Buran. All models I have seen show ejection seats for Buran... why retrofit an escape system for a dead project?


Well, it's hard to speculate when the money dried up, but Challenger accident occured 2 years before Buran's flight. Some sources say, the ejection system was added as the result of the accident - some say it was there before. I, personally, belive the former - the system is clearly not part of the original design (it's kind of strange to be able to eject only 4 out of 10 possible crewmembers).



BTW comments that Buran cost too much are niave. The Russians were building 10,000 ton submarines out of Titanium at the time. Money wasn't an issue when you own everything... ie all is government controlled afterall.


You are quite mistaken. Money is still an issue, even if it is all owned by the government. BTW, that's exactly what brought USSR down.



...I doubt the Tsars would have gotten Russia into a better position....


Couldn't agree more. The development of Russia after the revolution was tremendously accelerated.
But I think we better talk about spacecraft.

Specifically, what do you think about the emergency rescue system that Shuttle has since the Challenger accident? ;) I, personally, think that it's not only a waste of time, but also un unjustified torture for the astronauts. A pure PR stunt. :(

[Ratamacue]

Enough Thread-jacking! http://www.chatitaliachat.it/serpe/humor/130.gif

Keep this an informative post; as I believe it was intended to be.

Thanks He.

[Nikolas]

Longbranch



http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/bburan2.jpg

Jeez, I loved seeing the Mig 25 Foxbat in this photo. Heck, I love just saying the word "Foxbat". Looks like a two seater… trainer maybe? so one guy can keep an eye on the shuttle?

Very good question.

Now I shall tell.

It is original MIG 25:

http://www.airwar.ru/photo/mig25/mig25_4_4.jpg

It is original MIG 25 ПУ (PU) - For training :

http://www.airwar.ru/photo/mig25/mig25pu2.jpg


One of front planes MIG-25РУ (RU) a stream (№ 390СА01) was altered for testing ejection seats K - 36РБ (RB), for space shuttle "Buran".
As it is possible to see on a photo a back armchair openly. The tested armchair there was established
On a nose of the plane the videocamera was established.

Upon termination of tests program "Buran", the plane "01" was used for tests of other ejection armchairs, for other planes.

http://www.airwar.ru/photo/mig25/09_mig25.jpg

As one more plane was used
MIG - 25РБК (RBK) number "02"
Under wings of this plane the various equipment was established.
For example telemetry hardware, communication hardware etc.

http://www.airwar.ru/photo/mig25/mig25pu.jpg

And now about the plane which you see in a photo together with the Buran
In a photo it is well visible number of the plane "22".
Since April, 17, 1985 it was used for development and testings trajectory control system of the Buran on altitude are lower than 20000 meters.
Testing of automatic control etc.
Preparations and trainings of crews of the Buran.

[RomanS]

You guys should of seen the special on Foxbat on Discovery Wings.

They mentioned how a Russian traitor took the mig25 and flew it to Japan.

That bastard .

[Russian Texan]

Didn't that guy later turned into alcoholic and commited suicide?

[He219]

http://www.wvi.com/~lelandh/belenko1a.jpg

In search of Freedom, on September 06, 1976 Lt. Viktor Ivanovich Belenko piloted his Mig-25 (USSR Product #84) from the 513th Fighter Regiment at the Siberian Base of Sakharovka, Soviet Air Defense Command and defected to the United States. He landing the Mig-25 in Japan under adverse weather conditions. No Westerner had ever been close to a Mig-25 and much about the aircraft were unknown. It was the one plane most feared in the West. In 1973, US. Air Force Secretary Robert C. Seamans deemed the Mig-25 as "Probably the best interceptor in production in the world today". In 1967 a stripped down Mig-25 set a world record by achieving a speed of 1,852 MPH and another aircraft set the altitude record by soaring to 118,898 feet. Lt Viktor Belenko with very low fuel landed his Mig-25 at Hakodate Airport in northern Japan, running off the end of the short runway. His defection to the West gave the United States the opportunity to closely examine the Mig-25. The aircraft was completely dismantled and then carefully inspected by aviation scientists and engineers from both Japan and the United States. President Ford granted Belenko asylum in the United States and the pilot underwent five months of questioning and interrogation. The United States Government established a Trust Fund for him and the interest alone afforded Belenko very comfortable living in the U.S. He was a free man, at last, to do as he pleased.
Upon dismantling the Mig-25, the data was analyzed by the Foreign Technology Division of the Air Force at Dayton, Ohio. There were many surprises:


The Mig had been manufactured in February 1976 and thus was one of their latest most sophisticated production aircraft.
Transistor circuitry was not used but instead the Soviets relied on high tech vacuum tubes for most of their electronics.
Welding was done by hand.
Rivet heads were exposed in areas not critical to parasitic aerodynamic drag.
Pilot forward vision was highly obstructed.
With huge Tumansky R-15D-300 engines the Mig was considered almost a rocket.
Pilots were forbidden to exceed Mach 2.5. There was a total of three engine instruments and the airspeed indicator was redlined at 2.8 Mach.
Above Mach 2.8 the engines would overheat and burn up. The Americans had clocked a Mig-25 over Israel at Mach 3.2 in 1973. Upon landing in Egypt, the engines were totally destroyed. We did not understand that the engine destruction was inevitable.
The combat radius is 186 miles.
Without using afterburner; staying at optimum altitude and not maneuvering, the Mig can fly in a straight line for 744 miles.
The plane was so heavy, at 64,200 pounds, that Soviet designers had to eliminate a pilot ejection system.
Maximum operational altitude: Carrying two missiles, 78,740 feet (for maximum two minutes duration); carrying four missiles, 68,900 feet is maximum.
Maximum altitude of missiles: 88,588 feet.
Ability to intercept an SR-71: Belenko states the Mig-25 cannot intercept the SR-71 for several reasons: The SR-71 fly too high and too fast; the Mig cannot reach it or catch it. The missiles lack the velocity to overtake the SR-71 and in the event of a head on missile fire (The Golden BB), the Guidance system cannot adjust to the high closure rate of the SR-71.
The Mig-25 has a jam proof radar but cannot distinguish targets below 1,640 feet due to ground clutter. The radar was so powerful it could burn through jamming signals by approaching bombers.
Maximum G load: With full fuel tanks 2.2 G's is max; with near empty fuel tanks, 5 G's is dangerous. The Mig-25 cannot turn inside a U.S. F-4 Phantom fighter!
The plane was made of steel alloy, not high temperature titanium, although strips of titanium was used in areas of high heat concentration.
In a tight turn the missiles could be ripped from the wings.
The Mig-25 was was not a fighter or an air superiority aircraft but rather designed by the Soviets to climb at tremendous speeds, fire missiles at one pass of the target and then land.
Search and tracking radar had a range of 55.9 miles.
The pilot duties were to take off, turn on the auto pilot and await instructions to fire the missiles from ground controllers. The Mig-25 had a superb auto pilot and digital communications from an onboard computer to ground controllers.
Credit is given to the Soviets for building a high altitude Interceptor in a short period of time with the materials and engines available to them in 1967 in order to counter the perceived threat of the XB-70.
On November 12, 1976, sixty-seven days after the defection of Belenko and his Mig-25 to the West, the United States and Japan returned the Mig-25 to Russia...in dismantled pieces.
http://www.wvi.com/~lelandh/mig25.html
http://www.wvi.com/~lelandh/mig25e.jpg

Belenko is now an aerospace consultant and lecturer.

[Nikolas]

Photos of the plane in Japan

http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/mikoyan/mig/25/images/mig25_j8.jpg


http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/mikoyan/mig/25/images/mig25_j6.jpg

http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/mikoyan/mig/25/images/mig25p-b4.jpg

http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/mikoyan/mig/25/images/mig25_j10.jpg

http://www.testpilot.ru/russia/mikoyan/mig/25/images/mig25_j4.jpg

[GazB]

The only person here whot tried to stop expression was you. Shall I quote? "Shut the f*** up."

It was his way of saying "Shut the f*** up... you are off topic here".


What we should not stand for are:

1) discriminatory posts about race, religion, nationality, etc. - BUT don't confuse something based in FACT with discriminatory - i.e. Mexican immigrants ARE often impoverished - that is a fact that proven - not ALWAYS true but statistically defendable - MEXICANS spread disease is not - unless you have the ammo to back it up - then by all means go ahead b/c I would be interested in reading the study. I hope the distinction between these statemens - one discriminatory one non-discriminatory is obvious.


Interesting example. It seems that unlike the rest of humanity Mexicans cannot spread diseases according to you. They must be freaks. Or you must be wrong. A better definition of discrimination is claiming all Mexicans are poor. This is obviously blatently not true... some are not. Just like the claim that black people are "good at sport but not as smart as white people". Anything that categorises one group of people as something they are not. Some White people are smart, some are dumb. Suggesting that all white people are either is racist. The only true statements regarding all of an eithnic group that are not racist are actually rather boring and obvious. All Black people are human. All the Black people that have ever lived have either died or will die.
There is no legitimate link between intelligence or physical ability linked to race... though hitler certainly tried. A 90 year old Black man has more in common with a 90 year old White man or a 90 year old Asian man than he does with an 18 year old black man... that is all you really need to know about race.


There is a lot of posting here by people with a decidedly pro-russian agenda.


Now I have singled oout the Russians here b/c IMO they are particularly egregious offenders.

What side of this fence am I on?

Am I Russian? (My name and where I am from might give me away... my family have lived here since my white ancestors pinched it off the locals in that fine British colonial tradition 6 generations ago.)


Now - I am not going to go through every single thread about chechnya/astan to find the posts by you and the boys that I refer to b/c I don't really care enough to deal with it.

You had better talk to Hood... your moderator badge seems to have fallen off.


Jeez, I loved seeing the Mig 25 Foxbat in this photo. Heck, I love just saying the word "Foxbat". Looks like a two seater… trainer maybe? so one guy can keep an eye on the shuttle

It is common practise for aircraft to escorts to fly with new aircraft... sometimes they can cause problems. The US had an awesome Mach 3 bomber called Valkirie or something and one of the chase planes collided with it and broke off its tail. There are lots of photos of the incident but I could never look at those images where such a beautiful sleek bomber was destroyed. I think the bomber crew died in the accident too, which makes it even worse. The Mig-25 was originally designed to intercept the Valkierie, but was converted into a recon and interceptor for the later SR-71. The two seater Mig-25 was indeed the trainer and if you have the money they sell rides to heights where the sky almost goes black during the day 25km up and you can see the curve of the Earth...


When a designer uses somebody else's experience as a base, it's called progress, not plagiarism.


Wasn't it Einstein who said something like "I achieved so much because I stood on the shoulders of Giants". If we had to reinvent everything from scratch everytime we did something we wouldn't get anywhere... the fact that it was all our own work would mean little.


Shuttle was primarily conceived as the workhorse of SDI. Nobody in their right mind ever thought of it as a bomber

Actually the USAF is currently looking at a hypersonic aircraft that flies on the edge of space and can fly half way around the world to drop bombs with huge kinetic force. The Shuttle could do this... and the Buran was certainly designed with this in mind too. Most of the Shuttles funding was from the military and more than two thirds of its flights have been classified.


In general the SSME (Space Shuttle Main Engine) is a complete failure from economical standpoint.

Yet from a technical standpoint it was impressive and is impressive even today. Reality is so fickle. :|


There are basically only 2 payload configurations that were fully tested with it, Buran and Polyus - and the latter was semi-successful (failed to insert into orbit).

I remember seeing a model with a large fairing much like the big tank like thing on the Bison M3 carrier aircraft fitted to the Energyia. Unlike when fitted to the Bison this was intended to carry a heavy load of about 100 tons. I remember it as being part of a plan for a flight to Mars where parts are taken to orbit and assembled in space. They understood the debilitating effects of zero gravity on the body and wanted as much fuel to get to mars as quickly as possible, which of course means a lot of fuel.


However, if one remembers what SS was built for (SDI) - it suddenly makes perfect sence!

And for SDI not just repairing but "refuelling" battlestations.

Note the two seat Foxbat was used for ejection seat testing because of the speed and altitudes the foxbat could fly at. Having an ejection seat that could be used from ground level at zero speed to 30,000m at mach 3.2 was one thing but you have to test it in a wide range of situations before you can be sure it is good. Another popular test aircraft was an AN-12 (a Soviet equivelent of a C-130 Hercules) with the ejection seat in a pod mounted behind the tail. This subsonic transport was very useful becuase the pod could be turned to fire at any angle in roll at low and medium heights at speeds of a 150km/h through to about 4-500km/h.
There was plenty of room for testing and recording equipment in the main body of the aircraft.


The Mig had been manufactured in February 1976 and thus was one of their latest most sophisticated production aircraft.

Straight after the defection all the systems of the Mig-25 were completely upgraded to reduce the damage done. It became a much more capable aircraft.


Transistor circuitry was not used but instead the Soviets relied on high tech vacuum tubes for most of their electronics.

Transistor circuitry could not be used due to the temperature generated at top speeds. At mach 3 the inside of the cockpit was 70 degrees C. Only the full pressure suit with airconditioning kept the pilot comfortable.


Welding was done by hand.

When it was designed that was normal manufacturing practise.


Rivet heads were exposed in areas not critical to parasitic aerodynamic drag.

Ain't broke don't fix.


Pilot forward vision was highly obstructed.

Like most Soviet fighters of the period. The Interceptor pilot would be vectored to the target area by ground control and would lock onto and launch his weapons without ever coming within visual range of the target. The only AAMs the Foxbat carried in the interception role were BVR (Beyond Visual Range) missiles.


Pilots were forbidden to exceed Mach 2.5. There was a total of three engine instruments and the airspeed indicator was redlined at 2.8 Mach.

Actually they were forbidden to exceed Mach 2.83.


Above Mach 2.8 the engines would overheat and burn up. The Americans had clocked a Mig-25 over Israel at Mach 3.2 in 1973. Upon landing in Egypt, the engines were totally destroyed. We did not understand that the engine destruction was inevitable.

The problem was overspeed... the engines accelerated and damage themselves... when they cooled they were different shapes inside and would have to be trashed.


The combat radius is 186 miles.

Rubbish. It was closer to about 600 miles. Its range at mach 2.83 was very close to its range at subsonic speed so unlike most other supersonic aircraft it was more efficient to fly at about mach 2.2 than subsonically.


Without using afterburner; staying at optimum altitude and not maneuvering, the Mig can fly in a straight line for 744 miles.

Not sure where they got their figures from...
Most sources give it a cruise range of over 1,000NM.


The plane was so heavy, at 64,200 pounds, that Soviet designers had to eliminate a pilot ejection system.

Wrong.


Ability to intercept an SR-71: Belenko states the Mig-25 cannot intercept the SR-71 for several reasons: The SR-71 fly too high and too fast; the Mig cannot reach it or catch it. The missiles lack the velocity to overtake the SR-71 and in the event of a head on missile fire (The Golden BB), the Guidance system cannot adjust to the high closure rate of the SR-71.

And of course with his defection the upgrades meant it could intercept the SR-71... which of course was its job. The Heat seeking R-40TDs were specially designed for the task. (How many heat seeker missiles are there that weigh 800kgs and fly 80kms at Mach 5?)


The Mig-25 has a jam proof radar but cannot distinguish targets below 1,640 feet due to ground clutter. The radar was so powerful it could burn through jamming signals by approaching bombers.

It was designed to intercept high flying supersonic targets. Later models had full look down shoot down capability but it was always intended to take on high flyers.

To give you an idea how powerful the radar was its power was comparable to all the radars the US used to defend its northern border over the north pole at the time. The focused beam used to track targets could fry a rabbit at 3km on the ground. (it was 600Kw... my microwave oven is a 600w... this is 600,000w of focussed microwaves)



Maximum G load: With full fuel tanks 2.2 G's is max; with near empty fuel tanks, 5 G's is dangerous. The Mig-25 cannot turn inside a U.S. F-4 Phantom fighter!

It is a fast flying interceptor... it is no surprise it can't out turn a fighter... it can out turn an SR-71 and that is all it needs do.


The plane was made of steel alloy, not high temperature titanium, although strips of titanium was used in areas of high heat concentration.

Whereas the SR-71 is all Ti and even the US can't afford to fly it...


In a tight turn the missiles could be ripped from the wings.

Rubbish. If it has to perform a tigh turn then something is very wrong. It has huge control surfaces and is very manouverable at high altitudes.


The Mig-25 was was not a fighter or an air superiority aircraft but rather designed by the Soviets to climb at tremendous speeds, fire missiles at one pass of the target and then land.

So why all the BS about turning ability and manouver capability?


Search and tracking radar had a range of 55.9 miles.
The pilot duties were to take off, turn on the auto pilot and await instructions to fire the missiles from ground controllers. The Mig-25 had a superb auto pilot and digital communications from an onboard computer to ground controllers.

So why all the BS about visibility from the cockpit?


Credit is given to the Soviets for building a high altitude Interceptor in a short period of time with the materials and engines available to them in 1967 in order to counter the perceived threat of the XB-70.

How generous.


On November 12, 1976, sixty-seven days after the defection of Belenko and his Mig-25 to the West, the United States and Japan returned the Mig-25 to Russia...in dismantled pieces.

With the Soviets complaining that many parts were never returned.
Within a year or so a new upgrade replaced all the compromised systems with better ones.

[Longbranch]

Nikolas, thanks for the info on the Mig.

[HELEX]

Original(Tank destroyer Jaguar):


http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/jaguar_1.jpg

Russian Copy(SHTURM SELF PROPELLED ANTI-TANK GUIDED MISSILE SYSTEM):


http://www.army-technology.com/projects/shturm/images/shturm3.jpg


;)

[Russian Texan]

Original(Tank destroyer Jaguar):


http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/jaguar_1.jpg

Russian Copy(SHTURM SELF PROPELLED ANTI-TANK GUIDED MISSILE SYSTEM):


http://www.army-technology.com/projects/shturm/images/shturm3.jpg


;)

And you say its a copy based on a same argumentation as Tiger vs Mi28N, Ka 50/52 ;)

Kid, and yes I am sure that you are, you have just appeared on this board but seem to have a "hard-on" for Russians... WWII is over, Germany lost, trust me...get over it.
Btw, next time you post here - don't forget to say "thank you" for the removal of the Berlin wall.

Another thing and it is kind of personal, but: would you please post your picture here, you see, I find it much easier to ignore paople once I see how they look like...

[Javehn]

Which one exactly is the copy ?? The missile is copy, or MTLB carrier is the copy of Jag ? Cose they both not . The same consept doesn't mean the stilling of design ?

Or every single APC producer in the world stolled his ideas one from another , sence they all look allike ?
Every plane designed in the world is a thief ?

[ExtraT]

Original(Tank destroyer Jaguar):
Russian Copy(SHTURM SELF PROPELLED ANTI-TANK GUIDED MISSILE SYSTEM):
;)

That's a classic example of a troll. Don't fall for it, guys.

[StealthMode]

Kingpin wrote:
About plagiarism.... Find 10 differences between Boeing and Airbus ariframes... Man! If idea fits perfectly to its purpose why produce something different?

-Good story about Airbus:
"Arbeitsgemeinschaft Airbus" (working group Airbus) is founded in Germany. Signing a contract on December 23, 1965 between multiple firms.

-Airbus (as we know it) Industry was founded on December 18, 1970, between Germany and France.


-On July 15, 1916, Boeing incorporated his airplane manufacturing business as Pacific Aero Products Company; a year later, he changed the name to the Boeing Airplane Company.

I dont think an argument can be made in defense of Airbus. Boeing, an American, an American company was in it since the invention of flight. Now this one isnt debatable.

I dont want start a debate again about who was first, and who copied who. But I demand credit be due, to those that deserve obvious credit.

Being that I work for Boeing woot ..... I would think that Airbus and EVERYONE else around the world took ideas, theory, design, etc. from the pioneers and grew from that. Not that it is plagarism in some cases.

You should always try to make things better, at least acknowledge, dont try to take the pride. I wont even begin the shuttle Vs. Buran.. although different, just look at the damn pictures, you dont come up with your own idea and have your product look like an exact copy on the surface;

I acknowledge the other technical differences.

[M1A2U2]

AK-Lover wrote:
Where did the crew of discovery take their vacation?, all over the state of Texas!

HAHAHAHAHAH I THINK THATS HILARIOUS DUDE AND IM AMERICAN, GOT ANYMORE?

rat wrote I have the right to express my opinion on the issue
no you dont rat only i do how many times do i have to repeat myself?

[GazB]

"Russian Copy(SHTURM SELF PROPELLED ANTI-TANK GUIDED MISSILE SYSTEM): "

Interesting except that it was the Russians that were the first to implement the idea of man portable ATGMs and issuing them on a scale that actually made sense. (ie manpack AT-3s).

The Shturm missile is not related to any western missile... it is radio command guided and does not trail wires. The use of ATGMs on APCs and ligh vehicles started rather long before the jaguar existed. The BRDM-1 and BRDM-2 were used as ATGM systems before the HOT missile the Jaguar uses existed. The Shturm wasn't a copy, it was a much larger missile that required a larger vehicle. The MT-LB was chosen because it was in widespread use and was large.
They are also rather different in that just like the BRDM-2 models the Shturm system has a fully retractible launcher arm. When travelling the only difference between a normal BRDM-2 and a Shturm is the missile guidance sight at the front of the vehicle.

Actually the body of the Jaguar looks very Panther like... and we all know the Panther was a copy of the T-34. :-)